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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 21 Jul 1959

Vol. 176 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 2—Houses of the Oireachtas.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £160,800 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1960, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Houses of the Oireachtas, including certain Grants-in-Aid.

Things happen so quickly in this House that one sometimes does not know what is going on. I wanted to speak on the Vote for the President's Establishment but it went over in a rush.

It was moved but nobody offered to speak. I gave the Deputy plenty of time.

I have been told that under this Vote I could raise the question of amplification in this House. From time to time I, and other Deputies, have had to cock our ears, otherwise we could not hear what was being said. Only a few minutes ago, when the Minister for Finance was speaking, I could not hear him. It is a practice for members of the Government and the Opposition to talk to one another across the floor of the House but what about us here behind? We are also entitled to hear what is going on. Everything said in this House should be heard by every Member of this House.

We are dealing with serious business. We are dealing with the making of laws and we all should have a say in what should be law and what should not be law. At times I notice the gentlemen of the Press give up and stop writing when they cannot hear certain members of the House and there are Deputies in this House who cannot be heard. I can be heard all right but I find it difficult to hear some others here. I think the time has come when speeches in this House should be amplified in some way. Microphones could be placed here and there in the House and when there is a complaint about a speaker not being heard that speaker could move closer to the microphone.

The people in the gallery come here to hear what we have to say and they have the right to hear. They say that sound moves up and perhaps the people in the gallery hear better than we do. Some form of amplification is badly needed. There is amplification now in practically every church and there is a microphone on every altar in Dublin. Surely it would be no harm to have amplification in this House. Everything said here should be heard by every member of the House.

I now want to raise another matter on this Vote, a matter which is a delicate one and one on which the average member will whisper but is afraid to talk about. That is the question of allowances for members. I do not care what people think of what I say but I am not in this House for what I get out of it. I estimate that I had another £5 a week income before I was elected here. From what I know no member of this House is making anything by being a member. One of the reasons why so few Deputies are present in the House is that they are out attending to their private business because they feel that if they did not do that they would have to be going around looking for a loan. That would be a bad thing for Deputies to do.

I know that the public and certain sections of the Press are constantly referring to the tax free allowances of Deputies. I am not suggesting here that our allowances should be increased but I do suggest that something should be done to make those Deputies having no other income, or very little other income, a little independent so that they will not have to run away from their constituents as was the case of a member who resigned from this House last year. He resigned because he had no money for the last week of each month that he was a member of this House. I saw a pawn ticket for a suit of clothes in that man's hand. I know that there are wealthy members of the House but I still say that the whole question should be examined. I read a reference some time ago in the life of James Connolly to this subject. At that time legislation was being introduced in the House of Commons to provide allowances for members.

The Deputy is advocating legislation. He may not advocate legislation on an Estimate. I have given the Deputy quite a deal of latitude.

I raised this matter before and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle told me that I could raise it on this Estimate. This is a serious matter but I am not so much concerned in it. I would prefer to be in the House if I had nothing in my pocket. However, there are other members, people with jobs, jobs which they must surrender when they become members of the House. If these people are to play their proper part in this House they should be made independent. The allowances here are such that a man could not keep his family and attend to his duties at the same time.

I must ask the Deputy to leave this subject now.

I shall depart from it. However there was one occasion when I asked Deputy Murphy, the member who resigned from this House, down to the bar for a drink and he could not come because he had not the money in his pocket.

I cannot allow these observations. It is not desirable to draw these personal matters into the discussion.

The man refused to come down because he had not the price of a drink.

The Deputy is trying to get by the ruling of the Chair. The Deputy will sit down.

I have mentioned the two points in which I am interested and I hope something will be done about the matter of allowances.

The Deputy may not continue on that subject. It is irrelevant and disorderly.

I should like to ask the Minister what progress has been made since last year in connection with the heating system of this establishment. It may seem inappropriate to raise the question of heating at this time of the year but I should like the Minister to tell us whether arrangements have been made now to ensure that native fuel is used in heating both Houses of the Oireachtas in winter time rather than imported fuel, which has been used up to recently. I understand that there was some difficulty with regard to the equipment, that alterations were necessary in order that native fuel could be used, but it is essential that whatever difficulties there are should be surmounted because, if this House does not set the example with regard to the use of native resources and raw materials, there is very little use in appealing to people in the country to use native resources. The Dáil and Seanad should set the example. I should like to know from the Minister now whether any progress has been made since the Estimate for the Houses of the Oireachtas was discussed last year.

Last year I mentioned the question of the ventilation of the House. I am not interested in the heating of the House because at times we have too much heat. There has been mention of amplification. That may be all right as far as the Ceann Comhairle is concerned but it would be no harm if some members were gagged instead of their speeches being amplified. That is my view.

As everybody has put up some kind of proposition for the improvement of this House, may I suggest that perhaps it would be a good thing if we had sound recorders here and then we would have our note-takers in a position to make the Ministers eat the tape?

I do not know whether legislation will be required to deal with the matter to which I wish to refer. I do not think legislation would be needed. I think it is recognised on all sides of an Assembly such as this that, in order to make Partiament function, there must be an effective Government and an effective Opposition but, if there is to be an effective Opposition, the complexity of legislation and government has now become so great that it is becoming virtually impossible for an Opposition to function without some kind of secretarial assistance. Anybody who has any experience of it knows that a Minister, of necessity, coming in here to defend any proposition or, indeed, to answer a Question, must be fortified with a considerable brief to which he can make reference. Anyone with experience knows that to carry on an intelligent discussion even on a simple Parliamentary Question, not to mention a motion or a Bill, considerable briefing is requisite from the Minister's point of view.

Up to a certain point, an Opposition can carry on without any corresponding assistance but I think it is becoming more and more obvious, as those of us with some experience have found, that if the Opposition is to give truly effective service in the House, without requiring it to undertake altogether unreasonable burdens, some plan should be worked out whereby a part of the Oireachtas staff would constitute the secretariat of the official Opposition.

I think our people, who have a tendency to criticise public expense, which, I suppose, is a healthy thing, often overlook the facilities which are available to legislators in other countries. It would not be reasonable for a country with our resources to emulate the example of the Congress of the United States of America, nor should we aspire to have available to us the same facilities as the members of Congress have, but it is to be borne in mind that every member of Congress, and that is everybody, every Senator and every Deputy in the House of Representatives, receives not only the Parliamentary allowance of $22,500 but he has attached to him a secretary, a not inconsiderable secretarial staff and a suite of offices.

That is manifestly something far in excess of anything that would be required here but I do think the time has come seriously to consider the provision of what, for want of a better word, I shall describe as a skeleton Civil Service for the Opposition. I recognise at once that to arrange this will not be altogether easy but I do not believe it would be impossible. I would imagine that such persons as were mutually agreed on all sides of the House as being necessary, could be chosen by the Opposition they were intended to serve and be allowed to function as temporary civil servants and have their rates of remuneration equated with persons in corresponding rank in the permanent Civil Service. What would transpire when there was a change of Government, I cannot myself clearly foresee at this time but I do not believe that it would create insuperable difficulties. I imagine personnel of that character could be incorporated into the permanent Civil Service on such occasion as the Opposition became the Government.

I do not want to go too deeply into the detail of this but I think it is a suggestion that might with advantage be considered by all Parties in the House. In the ordinary course of affairs and in the ordinary healthy swing of the political pendulum, we are all likely to find ourselves from time to time on the Opposition or the Government benches and it ought to be our common interest in that we are all members of Parliament and in that we all believe in the Parliamentary system, seriously to consider a reform along the lines which I now suggest, not for the benefit of any particular Party which happens for the time being to be in the Opposition, but for the benefit of the better working of Parliament itself.

With regard to the fuel situation I would have preferred if that question were raised on the Board of Works Estimate. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to answer it though I think I can say that I have seen turf delivered. I do not say that turf is solely used, but turf is delivered to the furnaces that keep this place warm. I shall make inquiries about the matter to see what is the position. Acoustics and ventilation would be matters for the Committee of Procedure and Privileges and I think that Committee, if it has not done so already, is about to consider the question of acoustics. It could also consider the question of ventilation and, if that Committee recommends that any course should be taken, I am quite sure that there will not be any difficulty in implementing it.

On the question which the Deputy raised with regard to salaries and which you, a Cheann Comhairle, ruled out of order, all I have to say is that I agree with a great deal of what the Deputy said and, with regard to the secretariat for the Opposition, I see no objection to that in principle. There may be some difficulty in working out the matter but if the Deputy, or the Party, would put up some proposition it would certainly receive very sympathetic consideration.

Vote put and agreed to.
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