Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 22 Oct 1959

Vol. 177 No. 2

Apprenticeship Bill, 1958—Committee Stage (Resumed).

SECTION 42.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. J. Lynch)

I move amendment No. 40:—

In subsection (1), page 14, line 39, before "those" to insert "either of".

The purpose of subsection (1) of Section 42 is to provide for investigation by an apprenticeship committee of disputes between apprentices and employers. It is visualised that these disputes might arise mainly out of the interpretation of rules, for example, those relating to training, dismissal, et cetera. The subsection as at present drafted might be held to limit an apprenticeship committee's powers of investigation to disputes which are referred to it jointly by both parties. The purpose of the amendment is to make it clear that the committee can act if the dispute is referred to it by either of the parties.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 42, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 43 to 46, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 47.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 41:—

In paragraph (b), page 15, line 42, after "committee" to insert "or from an employer in the district of the committee to an employer in another apprenticeship district for the purposes of the trade".

With your permission, Sir, I should like to take amendments Nos. 41 and 42 together. The purpose of Section 47 is to facilitate the transfer of an apprentice from one employer to another where an apprenticeship committee is satisfied that this should be done in certain circumstances. The section as drafted could be interpreted as meaning that an apprenticeship committee could facilitate transfers only within its own apprenticeship district. The joint committee of the workers' and employers' interests, as a result of their examination of the section, have recommended that it should be made clear that transfers can be arranged from an employer in one apprenticeship district to an employer in another. This might be required, say, in the case of an apprentice whose family moved from one part of the country to another.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 42:—

In paragraph (c), page 15, line 47, after "committee" to insert "or from an employer in the district of the committee to an employer in another apprenticeship district for the purposes of the trade".

Amendment agreed to.

Section 47, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 48 and 49 agreed to.

SECTION 50.

Question proposed: "That Section 50 stand part of the Bill".

Mr. Cosgrave

I take it that the supervisors appointed would be civil servants?

Mr. J. Lynch

Not necessarily. The intention is that all permanent staff will be civil servants.

Question put and agreed to.

NEW SECTION

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 43:—

In page 16, before section 51, to insert the following new section:—

"An Chomhairle may appoint such and so many committees as it thinks fits to advise An Chomhairle on matters connected with employment by way of apprenticeship and the co-ordination of the work of apprenticeship committees."

This arises again out of a recommendation of the joint committee that An Chomhairle should have power to set up sub-committees and advisory committees for the purpose of undertaking specific tasks and co-ordinating the work of a number of apprenticeship committees. There is nothing in the Bill as drafted that would preclude An Chomhairle from doing that, but as a result of the recommendation of the joint committees, it was felt desirable to insert the amendment as suggested.

Amendment agreed to.

SECTION 51.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 44:—

In subsection (1), page 16, line 26, after "fee" to insert "(being a fee in respect of registration in the register of apprentices kept under section 41 of this Act)".

This amendment gives effect to a recommendation of the joint committee. The fee provided for in subsection (1) of Section 51 should be described as a "registration fee" in order to avoid any confusion with the substantial premium formerly paid by many apprentices to their employers. The new Section 30 inserted earlier on Committee Stage will enable an apprenticeship committee to make rules prohibiting the taking of such premiums.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 51, as amended, agreed to.

Section 52 agreed to.

SECTION 53.

Amendments Nos. 45 and 46 not moved.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 47:—

In page 17, to add to the section the following new subsections:—

"( ) An exemption shall not be granted under subsection (1) of this section unless, at a meeting of An Chomhairle, the chairman of An Chomhairle or, in his absence, the chairman of the meeting, and a majority of the workers' members and of the employers' members of An Chomhairle present and voting on the grant of the exemption vote in favour of granting the exemption.

( ) An exemption shall not be granted under subsection (2) or subsection (3) of this section unless, at a meeting of the apprenticeship committee, the chairman of the committee or, in his absence, the chairman of the meeting and a majority of the workers' members and of the employers' members of the committee present and voting on the grant of the exemption vote in favour of granting the exemption."

Amendment agreed to.

Section 53, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 54 to 56, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 57.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 48:—

To delete subsection (1) and substitute the following new subsection:—

"(1) Where rules under this Act require printed copies of the rules to be posted and kept posted, such copies shall be posted and kept posted—

(a) in a prominent place in every premises in which persons are employed by way of apprenticeship in the trade to which the rules relate, and

(b) in such characters and in such position as to be conveniently read by persons so employed in such premises."

Section 57 provides that certain rules made under the Act which contain provisions of particular interest to apprentices—for example, those relating to training and dismissal—will have to be posted up at the principal entrances to their work places so that they can be conveniently read by apprentices or any other interested parties. The joint committee pointed out that in some industries—for example, the building industry—the employer's business might be widely dispersed and might have a number of entrances. They recommended that the section should be amended to provide that the notices will be displayed in prominent places instead of at the principal entrances. I think that recommendation is reasonable and I have accepted it.

Mr. Corish

And authorised officers will have power to insist they be posted?

Mr. J. Lynch

Yes.

Mr. Corish

And that they be renewed from time to time?

Mr. Cosgrave

I think that is dealt with in the next amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 57, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 58.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 49:—

In subsection (4), page 18, line 33, after "post" to insert "and keep posted".

This is consequential on an amendment accepted yesterday.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 50:—

Before subsection (6), page 18, to insert the following new subsection:—

"( ) Where a person contravenes rules under section* of this Act, he shall be guilty of an offence."

This is related to amendment No. 22 already discussed.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 51:—

In page 18, to delete subsection (7).

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 52:—

In subsection (12), page 19, to delete paragraph (a).

Amendment agreed to.

Section 58, as amended, agreed to.

SECTION 59.

Question proposed: "That Section 59 stand part of the Bill"

Mr. Cosgrave

Has anybody but the Comhairle power to take proceedings for an offence?

Mr. J. Lynch

Only the Comhairle.

Mr. Corish

Can any individual not take proceedings?

Mr. Cosgrave

He can with the consent of the Comhairle.

Mr. J. Lynch

"Proceedings for an offence under this Act shall not be instituted except by or with the consent of An Chomhairle."

Mr. Corish

They must have their consent?

Mr. J. Lynch

The Deputy will appreciate that the Comhairle, constituted as it is, will naturally have regard to the best interests of anybody prejudiced by a dispute, and having regard to its constitution, it will ensure that only genuine complainants will be allowed to prosecute. Otherwise, there might be a lot of fictitious cases.

Mr. Corish

It seems to be a bit unfair that they have got to go through two courts. First, they must go to the Comhairle for permission to proceed and, if they are turned down, that is that.

Mr. J. Lynch

The purpose of An Chomhairle is to control, but at the same time there is a reasonable flexibility. I do not anticipate that anybody with a genuine complaint or grievance will be precluded in any way from going ahead by An Chomhairle.

Mr. Corish

Suppose an apprentice or an employer had a complaint or grievance and believed that the Comhairle had contravened the law, what they will do? Can they proceed directly in the ordinary course?

Mr. J. Lynch

I should imagine other means would be open to them.

Mr. Corish

Can this section prevent them?

Mr. J. Lynch

No.

Mr. Cosgrave

From the way it is phrased at the moment, I understand that the consent of the Comhairle must be secured before proceedings can be taken. Assuming either an employer or an apprentice feels he has a case which should be investigated and that the matter should be taken into the courts, it is brought before the Comhairle. If it is decided on the basis of employers' and workers' representation, the Comhairle might divide evenly and the matter might have to be decided by the chairman. It is probably putting an undue burden on an individual to have to decide a matter which might or might not be a question of law. I suggest that, between now and the Report Stage, the Minister might consider whether some means could be provided under which a person aggrieved would have the right to appeal to a court for a decision in the matter.

Mr. J. Lynch

The purpose of the section as it stands is obviously to avoid frivolous complaints being ventilated, but, nevertheless, I shall undertake to do what the Deputy suggests.

Mr. Corish

The job of the Comhairle is to administer this Act and it is a bit tough on the individual to discover that if he has a legitimate complaint, he has to be judged in the first place by the administrators of the Act before he gets permission to proceed further.

Mr. J. Lynch

I shall look into it between now and the Report Stage.

Question put and agreed to.

NEW SECTION.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Acceptance of amendment No. 53 involves the deletion of Section 60.

Mr. J. Lynch

I move amendment No. 53:—

Before section 60, page 19, to insert the following new section:—

(1) Upon the coming into force of any rules under this Act—

(a) any provisions of an employment agreement then in force registered in the Register which relate to matters the subject of the rules, and

(b) any provisions of an order then in force made by the Labour Court under section 43 of the Act which relate to matters the subject of the rules,

shall cease to have effect in any apprenticeship district in which the rules have effect.

(2) Upon the commencement of a period specified by an apprenticeship committee under subsection (1) of section 35 of this Act—

(a) any provisions of an employment agreement then in force registered in the Register which relate to the number of persons to be taken into employment by way of apprenticeship in the trade, for which the committee is established, in the district of the committee, and

(b) any provisions of an order then in force made by the Labour Court under section 43 of the Act which relate to the number of persons to be taken into such employment in that trade and in that district,

shall cease to have effect in that district during that period.

(3) Where an employment agreement is, at a time when rules under this Act are in force, registered in the Register, any provisions of the agreement which relate to matters the subject of the rules shall not have effect in any apprenticeship district in which the rules have effect.

(4) Where an employment agreement is, at any time during a period specified by an apprenticeship committee under subsection (1) of section 35 of this Act, registered in the Register, any provisions of the agreement which relate to the number of persons to be taken into employment by way of apprenticeship in the trade, for which the committee is established, in the district of the committee shall not have effect in that district during the unexpired portion of that period.

(5) Where an order is, at a time when rules under this Act are in force, made by the Labour Court under section 43 of the Act, any provisions of the order which relate to matters the subject of the rules shall not have effect in any apprenticeship district in which the rules have effect.

(6) where an order is, at any time during a period specified by an apprenticeship committee under subsection (1) of section 35 of this Act, made by the Labour Court under section 43 of the Act, any provisions of the order which relate to the number of persons to be taken into employment by way of apprenticeship in the trade, for which the committee is established, in the district of the committee shall not have effect in that district during the unexpired portion of that period.

(7) In this section—

"the Act" means the Industrial Relations Act, 1946;

"the Register" means the Register of Employment Agreements maintained by the Labour Court under section 26 of the Act.

Under the provisions of the Industrial Relations Act, 1946, certain agreements registered with the Labour Court and Employment Regulation Orders made by the Court are enforceable at law. Matters touching on apprenticeship are sometimes covered by these agreements and Orders. The purpose of Section 60 is to ensure that nothing in such agreements or Orders dealing with apprenticeship shall have precedence over rules made by An Chomhairle or by an Apprenticeship Committee.

The section, as originally drafted, applied only to matters covered by rules made under the Bill. It is also necessary, however, that the section should apply to decisions taken by an Apprenticeship Committee under Section 35 relating to the number of apprentices to be taken into employment in the specified period. The section has been re-drafted to take account of this point. This amendment, in effect, substitutes a new section for the existing Section 60.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 60 deleted.

Sections 61 to 63, inclusive, agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with amendments.

Report Stage ordered for Wednesday, 28th October, 1959.