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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 5 May 1960

Vol. 181 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 51—Defence.

Tairgim:

Go ndeonófar suim nach mó ná £4,981,840 chun slánaithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1961, le haghaidh Óglaigh na hÉireann (lena n-áirítear Deontais-i-gCabhair áirithe) faoin Acht Cosanta, 1954 (Uimh. 18 de 1954), agus le haghaidh Costais áirithe riaracháin i ndáil leis an gcéanna; le haghaidh Costais áirithe faoi na hAchtanna um Chiontaí in aghaidh an Stáit, 1939 agus 1940 (Uimh. 13 de 1939 agus Uimh. 2 de 1940), agus faoi na hAchtanna um Réamhchúram in aghaidh Aer-Ruathar, 1939 agus 1946 (Uimh. 21 de 1939 agus Uimh. 28 de 1946); le haghaidh Costais i ndáil le Boinn a thabhairt amach, etc.; agus le haghaidh Deontas-i-gCabhair do Chumann Croise Deirge na hÉireann (Uimh. 32 de 1938).

£7,657,987 méid iomlán an Mheastacháin don bhliain 1960/61 agus, tar éis Leithreasuithe-i-gCabhair a bhaint de, is é £7,472,740 a ghlan-mhéid. Sin £742,661 níos mó ná glan-mhéid an Mheastacháin don bhliain 1959/60 mar mhéadaigh sé féin de shuim £6,179 a aistríodh ón Vóta le haghaidh Luach Saothair i leith méaduithe pá na Stát-Seirbhíse. Caithfear cur san áireamh, áfach, méid breise de £32,000 a vótáladh le déanaí i leith méaduithe pá an Airm agus nach dtaispeántar in Imleabhar na Meastachán. Dá bharr sin, is é £710,661 agus ní hé £742,661 an méadú.

Is í an chuid is mó den Mheastachán na Soláthairtí atá ann do phá, do liúntais agus do chothabháil na mBunn-Óglach. Tá na soláthartaí sin roinnte ar fho-mhírchinn áirithe agus, i bhfigiúirí móra, is ionann iad san iomlán beagnach £4,700,000 nó tuairim is 63 faoin gcéad de ghlan-mhéid an Mheastacháin. Faoi mar a thárla sna blianta roimhe seo, rinneadh amach an Meastachán, sa mhéid go mbaineann sé leis na Buan-Óglaigh, ar fhoras lán-Bhunaíocht Shíochána de 1,325 oifigeach agus 11,561 fear agus ansin, rinneadh laghduithe ar na figiúirí sin i leith na n-uimhreacha ar dócha ar dá réir a bheidh an Bhunaíocht féin faoi bhun lín i rith na bliana.

Fagann sin, dáiríre, go bhfuil soláthar á dhéanamh leis an Meastachán do líon glan-mhéanach de 1,152 oifigeach, 79 dalta agus 8,250 fear de na Cóir agus de na Seirbhísí uile. Tá beartaithe meán-líon de 8,250 fear a bheith ann i rith na bliana 1960/61— is é sin, 250 níos mó ná an meán-líon dá ndearnadh soláthar le Vóta na bliana 1959/60. Fiú amháin leis an líon méadaithe beidh na Buan-Óglaigh lán-gnóthach chun na dualgais breise a bhaineann leis an bhFórsa Cosanta Áitiúil maraon lena bhfuil riachtanach maidir le traenáil agus gnáth-riarachán an Airm a chómh-líonadh. £72,260 agus é roinnte ar fuaid an Mheastacháin, a chosnóidh an dá chéad agus caoga fear.

Amhail ón 15ú lá de mhí na Nollag seo caite, ta rátaí méadaithe pá i bhfeidhm d'Óglaigh na hÉireann. Déanann na méaduithe sin i dteannta na méaduithe a deónadh do Stát-Seirbhísigh na Roinne agus do dhaoine sibhialta atá ar fostú le hÓglaigh na hÉireann, tuairim is £440,000 nó beagnach 60 faoin gcéad de ghlan-mhéadú an Mheastacháin.

Áirítear na méaduithe orthu seo mar a leanas:—Fo-Mhírcheann A— Pá; Fo-Mhírcheann B—Liúntas Pósta; Fo-Mhírcheann C—Pá daoine sibhialta atá ar ceangal le hAonaid; Fo-Mhírcheann E—Pá Oifigigh an Chóir Liachta, agus mar sin de; Fo-Mhírcheann K—Lónta agus Liúntais ina n-ionad; Fo-Mhírcheann P.2—Pá na. Seirbhíse Cabhlaigh; Fo-Mhírcheann S.1—Pá Criúnna na Soithí Iompair; Fo-Mhírcheann Y—Tuarastail Roinne, agus mar sin de; agus Fo-Mhírcheann Y.2—An Cúltaca. An méadú lín atá beartaithe a bheith ann is mó is cúis leis an mbreis de £20,730 i bhfo-Mhírcheann M—Éadach agus Trealamh agus an bhreis de £3,471 i bhfo-Mhírcheann W—Árachas.

I rith na bliana seo caite, lean an mheanmnacht, an t-iompar agus an araíonacht de bheith sásúil i ngach brainse d'Óglaigh na hÉireann. Bhí an earcaíocht go sásúil freisin agus dá bhárr sin, feadadh an meán-líon de 8,000 fear dá ndearnadh soláthar le Vóta na bliana 1959/60 a choimeád. Tógadh isteach tuilleadh earcach faoi na Scéimeanna do Phrintísigh agus dóibh sin a tháinig isteach go lom díreach agus, lena chois sin, liostáladh roinnt fear le déanaí lena dtraenáil mar shuirbhéirí i gComplacht Suirbhéireachta an Chóir Innealtóirí. Maidir leis an gCúltaca, bhí mion-mhéaduithe ar líon an Chúltaca Oifigeach (An Chéad Líne) agus sna lín éifeachtacha den Fhórsa Cosanta Áitiúil agus den Slua Muirí. Tá laghdú ar líon éifeachtach an Chúltaca Fear (An Chéad Líne). Níor mhiste a rá gur ar an méid daoine a aistrítear ón mBuan-Fhórsa a bhíonn líon an Chéad Líne ag brath, aon am áirithe.

Tá beirt oifigeach ar seirbhís go fóill le hEagraíocht na Náisiún Aontaithe i dtaca le maoirseacht a dhéanamh ar an sos cogaidh—duine acu mar Chathaoirleach ar an gComh-Choimisiún Armstaid Éigipteach-Iosraelach i nGaza agus an duine eile ina chomhalta den Chomh-Choimisún Armstaid Iosraelach-Síreach in Iarúsailéim. Moladh Bonn na Náisiún Aontaithe don chaoga oifigeach a thug seirbhís sa Liobáin agus bronnadh na Boinn ortha le déannaí.

Ar an lú Deireadh Fómhair seo caite, tháinig an scéim i bhfeidhm chun An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil agus na Buan-Óglaigh a chónascadh go hiomlán le chéile. Tríd is tríd agus mar is eol do Theachtaí, is é cuspóir na Scéime sin, eagraíocht a sholáthar d'Oglaigh na hÉireann in am síochána trína bhféadfaidh siad, ar shlógadh dóibh, fórsa a chur ar machaire, a bheidh níos mó agus níos oiriúnaí ná mar ab fhéidir roimhe seo. De thoradh an chónasctha sin, bunaíodh trí bhriogáid nua agus aonaid eile machaire. Is í tábhach na scéime nua seo nach dócha, i gcás cogadh domhanda a theacht, go mbeidh mórán ama ann chun féachaint d'eagrú agus do thraenáil tar éis don chogadh briseadh amach.

Athrú bunúsach is ea an scéim uirthi sin a bhí ann cheana. Táthar tar éis beart nua a thabhairt le déanamh don Fhórsa Cosanta Áitiúil, is é sin, an chuid is mó de phearsanra na n-aonad comhraic a chur ar fáil. Tá a lán nua-aonad comhraic tar éis a n-eagrú sna cóir éagsúla agus ní foláir, anois, iadsin a thraenáil agus a dhéanamh oiriúnach chun a n-ionaid a thógaint leis na briogáidí nuachumtha agus, i gcásanna áirithe, leis na briogáidí a bhí ann cheana. Is é is mó a thagann de sin gur gá don Fhórsa Cosanta Áitiúil anois bheith oilte ar a lán arm nua a láimhseáil. Cuirfear ar lucht gach céime san FCÁ bheith eolgach ar oirbheartaíocht agus are theicníc a n-aonad nua i slí go gcothófar go seasta, an comhar sin atá ró-riachtanach i gcogadh na haimsire seo.

De thoradh an fháis atá ag teacht ar an FCÁ leis na blianta, tá ar chumas an fhórsa sin anois an obair thábhachtach nua seo a ghabháil de láimh agus a dhéanamh go héifeachtúil. Tá a lán oifigeach agus fear eile de na Buan-Óglaigh tar éis a gceaptha chun na haonaid nua den FCÁ a thraenáil. Is dá thoradh sin, an chuid is mó den mhéadú de £15,848 ar Fho-Mhírcheann G—Liúntas Cothaithe agus Liúntais eile agus is dá thoradh sin, freisin, cuid den mhéadú de £14,164 ar Fho-Mhírcheann H—Trúpaí a Iompar. Táthar tar éis áiseanna agus modhanna nua traenála a scrúdú agus a thástáil chun a áirithiú go mbainfear an tairbhe is mó is féidir as tréimhsí traenála an FCÁ. Tugadh an obair sin chun críche gan aon mhéadú ar líon bunaíochta na mBuan-Óglach.

Cuireadh Scéim an Chónasctha i bhfeidhm le linn na tréimhse nach raibh traenáil an FCÁ faoi lán seoil. Caitheadh an chuid is mó de na míonna seo a ghabh tharainn ar na haonaid nua a bhunú agus ar chaoi a thabhairt don phearsanra eolas a chur ar na hairm nua. De réir gach comhartha, éireoidh go maith leis an Scéim agus táthar lán-mhuiníneach go bhfuil bonn daingean leagtha anois ar a gcuirfear eagraíocht chomhraic éifeachtúil ar fáil. De thoradh an chónasctha, ardaíodh 102 Chaptaen chun bheith ina gCeannfoirt. Is é seo an chéad uair ag oifigigh den Fhórsa céim shinsearach a bheith acu.

Níor mhiste a rá, de dhroim an chónasctha, go bhfuil á bhreithniú faoi láthair éide chaighdeánach de dhearadh nua a thabhairt isteach don dá bhrainse d'Óglaigh na hÉireann.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

On a point of order, may I ask whether copies of the Minister's speech are available in English for the information of Deputies? We wish to have copies available.

That is scarcely a point of order.

It is very important that we all understand what is going on. I submit that, in the interests of the public, it is essential that we should know exactly what is going on and that a translation of this speech be made available.

It is not a function of the Chair. The Minister for Defence.

Surely the Minister has some comment to make, out of courtesy to the members of this House, on whether or not copies are available? It has been the practice in his Department to make copies available. Is that practice being maintained?

Every member of this House should know what is going on. I do not know the language. I do not know what is going on.

Has it not been the custom of the Minister for Defence to make his speech in Irish and in English? Up to the present, he has done that. The Minister for Defence has always given the speech in Irish and in English and Deputies will get it in both languages, as has been the practice.

I intend to give all the necessary information.

Is it the intention of the Minister to repeat his speech in English? I have no wish to have the speech repeated. The Minister might possibly shorten the debate with one contribution.

Ní féidir liom a rá anois cad a thiocfaidh as sin mar, i measc nithe eile, ní mór cuimhneamh ar chostais mhéadaithe agus ar na stoic atá ann anois a úsáid.

Chun go bhféadfaidh an tAer-Chór an rud atá tógtha aige air féin a chomhlíonadh i leith traenáil ardchéime do Dhaltaí agus d'Oifigigh Phíolótachta, is gá soláthar a dhéanamh chun aerárthaí oiriúnacha a cheannach in ionad na meaisíní "Spitfire" atá i ndeireadh a maitheasa. Go deimhin, gan obair na cothabhála a bheith ar fheabhas sa Chór, bheadh na haerárthaí sin ó mhaith le fada an lá. Agus na meaisíní "Spitfire" ar a slí amach anois, níl ar fáil le haghaidh traenáil ardchéime ach an trí scairdaerárthach "Vampire" agus níl siadsin oiriúnach in aon chor don mhéid daoine faoi thaenáil. Agus ag iarraidh dúinn aerárthaí nua a sholáthar in ionad na meaisíni "Spitfire", caithfimid coimeád i gcuimhne nach bhfuil ar fáil a thuilleadh lena gceannach sa scaird-aois seo, aerárthaí traenála ardchéime den saghas neamh-scairde nó loine. Ar ndóigh, fiú amháin le haghaidh traenála bunchéime, is amhlaidh atá scaird-eitleáin á bhforbairt agus á n-úsáid anois i dtíortha áirithe. Is gné bhunúsach d'eagraíocht an Aer-Chóir, Scéim an gCoimisiún Gearr-Sheirbhíse, agus is príomhchuspóir na Scéime sin, píolótaí a chur ar fáil chun folúntais in Aer-Lingus a líonadh. Níl aon eagraíocht náisiúnta eile ann go fóill, ar aon chuma, óna bhféadfaí píolótaí den saghas sin a fháil agus, ar an ábhar sin, tá sé fíorriachtanach leanúint den scéim a oibriú go héifeachtach. Chun léargas éigin a thabhairt ar a tábhacht sin, is leor a rá gur scaoileadh sé phíolóta dhéag den Aer-Chór so bhliain 1959-60 amháin chun dul ar seirbhís le hAer-Lingus. Agus ó 1952 i leith, scaoileadh timpeall le sé phíolóta is tríocha ar fad chun folúntais a líonadh sa Chuideachta sin.

Ós mar sin atá an scéal, tá beartaithe trí cinn eile de Scaird-Eitleáin "Vampire" a cheannach. Tá soláthar ina chomhair déanta i bhFo-Mhírcheann O—Stórais Ghinearálta— agus tá an soláthar sin ina chúis le £147,000 den mhéadú de £169,470 ar an bhFo-Mhírcheann sin. Tá an chuid eile den mhéadú inchurtha i leith an riachtanais a bhaineann le trealamh Comharthaíochta chomh maith le trealamh agus uirlisí eile a bhfuil géar-ghá leo, a cheannach.

I dteannta aer-thraenáil agus dualgais mhíleata eile a chomhlíonadh dó, b'fhéidir nár mhiste a lua anseo go gcuireann an tAer-Chór seirbhísí fóntacha ar fáil do Ranna eile Stáit. I gcúrsaí grianghrafachta, d'oibrigh sé ar feadh na bliana i gcomhar leis an Roinn Talmhaíochta, an Roinn Tailte, an Roinn Poist agus Teileagraf, Oifig na nOibreacha Poiblí agus an tSuirbhéireacht Gheolaíochta i mórán aerghrianghraf—tuairim is 4,000 díobh— a thógaint agus a chur ar fáil i dtaca le scéimeanna móra a iniúchadh agus a chur chun cinn. Bíonn an Cór ar glaoch rialta freisin chun cuidiú leis an Roinn Iompair agus Cumhachta i dTrealamh Cabhair-Loingseoireachta a thástáil ag Aerfoirt na Sionainne agus Bhaile Uí Choileáin agus, lena chois sin, chun cleachtadh a thabhairt do lucht oibrithe an Radar Shibhialta sna háiteanna sin.

Lean An tSeirbhís Ghabhlaigh de bheith ag caomhnú na hiascaireachta i rith na bliana. De dhroim na mbonn-línte nua arna n-údarú faoin Acht um Dhlínse Mhuirí a thabhairt isteach ar an lú Eanáir seo caite, méadaíodh go mór an réimhse farraige nó na huiscí is gá a chaomhnú. Tagann de sin, ar ndóigh, gur méadaíodh ar chúram agus ar dhualgais na Seirbhíse Cabhlaigh, freisin. Rinneadh mór-athghléasadh ar L.E. Maev le déanaí agus, anois, tá trí chairbhéid fhóntacha ar fáil.

Nuair a bhí an iascaireacht faoi lán seoil amach ón gcósta thoir theas i dtosach na bliana seo, bhí dhá chairbhéid ar fáil chun faire bhuan a dheanamh ar an líomatáiste.

Tá socair go ngabhfaidh An tSeirbhís Chabhlaigh de lámh, ón lú Aibreán amach, teachtaireachtaí muirghuaise a ghlacadh agus a chraobhscaoileadh agus, fós, na bearta tarrthála nach mór a dhéanamh dá ndeasca sin, a chomhoirniú. Roimhe seo, ba é cúram na Roinne Iompair agus Cumhachta an tseirbhís sin a chur ar fáil. Ina thaobh sin, tá socruithe á gcríochnú chun go ndéanfar an comhoirniú is gá leis an Roinn Poist agus Teileagraf, leis an nGarda Síochána agus leis na comhlachtaí eile lena mbaineann an scéal.

Socraíodh tuairim is dhá bhliain ó shin go mbeadh ar dhaltaí nua na Seirbhíse Cabhlaigh a dtraenáil go léir mar dhaltaí a dhéanamh sa tír seo. Roimhe sin, ba ghá daltaí a chur go Fundúireachtaí Cabhlaigh Shasana chun a dtraenáil thosaigh a dhéanamh. Ach leis an méadú a bhí ag teacht ar éifeachtúlacht na Seirbhíse agus mar gheall ar an taithí a bhí á fáil ag na hoifigigh de thoradh traenála agus cúrsaí a dhéanamh cois baile agus amuigh, measadh nár ghá a thuilleadh, leanúint den nós sin. Leagadh amach scéim traenála trína socraítear go ndéanann Daltaí Cabhlaigh a dtraenáil céad-bhliana sa Choláiste Mileata i bhfara le Daltaí Airm céad-bhliana agus dtraenáil dara bliana sa Scoil Chabhlaigh in Inis Sionnach. Tá an tathrú an-oiriúnach sin i bhfeidhm anois agus, dá bharr, thosaigh an tSeirbhís Chabhlaigh ar a céad scata de cheathrar dalta a thraenáil in Inis Sionnach, lá Feabhra seo caite.

Ar nós an Fhórsa Cosanta Áitiúil, fanann An Slua Muirí ar lán-líon agus leanann sé de fheabhas a chur ar a thraenáil.

Mar a fheicfidh Teachtaí, tá méadú de £96,520 ar Fho-Mhírcheann P-Trealamh Cosantach. Téann £19,522 den mhéid sin chun méadú ar thabhairt-anonn a ghlanadh, is é sin, stórais a ordaíodh ach nár díoladh astu—toisc seachadadh moillithe— roimh an 31ú Márta, 1960. Sa bhFo-Mhírcheann seo, is í an phríomh-mhír agus an t-aon mhír nua amháin, an soláthar de £50,000 atá á dhéanamh chun roinnt arm nua fritanc de mheánraon agus lón lámhaigh nach raibh againn cheana, a cheannach. Is leor chun riachtanais traenána na huaire an méid atá á cheannach ach ní leor é dá mbeidh ag teastáil ó Óglaigh na hÉireann ar ball. Is chuige, i gcoitinne, an chuid eile den mhéadú ar an bhFo-Mhírcheann—is é sin, timpeall le £27,000 chun costas méadaithe na n-arm agus an lóin lámhaigh a ghlanadh, nithe nár ceannaíodh ach fíorbheagán díobh le blianta beaga anuas.

I rith na bliana airgeadais 1959/60 críochnaíodh agus osclaíodh Lútharlann Nua sa Churrach, b'ionann is criochnuithe Halla Nua Bia agus Cocús in Áth Luain agus tosaoidh ar cheithre cinn is fiche de cheathrúnapósta a chur suas do shaighdiúirí i gCorcaigh. Sa Churrach, críochnaíodh an Eaglais nua Chaitliceach a thóg Coimisinéirí na nOibreacha Poiblí agus, lena chois sin, meastar go mbeidh Halla Nua Bia agus Cocús atá á dtógáil i nDún Phluincéid ag na Coimisinéirí, freisin, ullamh lena n-áitiú i mbliana. Leantar d'aire a thabhairt do thaitneamhachtaí eile a chur ar fáil do shaighdiúirí atá ina gcónaí sna beairice, freisin, agus is é sin is mó is cúis leis na méaduithe de £10,780 ar Fho-Mhírcheann R agus de £13,955 ar Fho-Mhírcheann V. Ní bheidh ach dea-thoradh ar na taitneamhachtaí seo go huile a chur ar fáil, agus is léir gurb é leas na ndaoine atá ina gcónaí iontu, na tithe maithe a cuireadh suas cheana féin i mBaile Átha Cliath, sa Churrach agus in Áth Luain.

Den mhéid iomlán de 1,599 bhfostaí, dá bhfuil soláthar déanta faoi Fho-Mhírcheann C, beidh 988 nduine acu ar fostú leis an gCór Innealtóirí, go mór mór, ar aireachasú agus cothabháil na bhfundúireachtaí agus na mbeairicí atá ann faoi láthair agus ar oibreacha nua i dtaca le maoin mhíleata. Is méadú beag é sin ar an bhfigiúr don bhliain 1959/60. Is ceardaithe, fir oibre, stórálaithe, cléirigh, clóscríobhaithe, etc., atá ar fostú leis na Cóir éagsúla, an cuid eile de 611. Tá laghdú ar an uimhir atá á soláthar don tSeirbhís Chabhlaigh de bharr mór-athghléasadh na gcairbhéidí a bheith críocnaithe.

Tá beartaithe go rachaidh Foireann Mharcaíochta an Airm sna comórtais léimní mar ba ghnáth, ar an Mór-Roinn, sna Stáit Aontaithe agus cois baile i mbliana, agus dá dhroim sin, tá soláthar déanta i bhFo-Mhírcheann A. 2—Caiteachais Fhoirne Marcaíochta ag Taispeántais Chapall—chun £10,000 a chaitheamh ina leith, is é sin, méadú de £7,500.

Le roinnt bliana anuas, tá aire ar leith á tabhairt do fheabhas a chur ar Fhoireann Mharcaíochta an Airm. Tá sé an-deacair foireann mhaith a bhunú i ndálaí an lae inniu ach ní mór bheith foighneach san obair agus cuimhneamh air go "mbeireann buan bua". Is deimhin liom go bhfuil dul ar aghaidh á dhéanamh agus go bhfuil againn anois lárlíon de chapaill agus de mharcaigh sár-mhaithe a bhfuil ar a gcumas, ach cuid den ádh a rith leo, cáil a bhaint amach dóibh féin san am le teacht.

De thoradh an tsoláthair mhéadaithe a rinneadh anuraidh chun capaill a cheannach, cuireadh ar chumas Bord Ceannaithe na gCapall sé cinn d'ainmhithe a cheannach ar luachanna Ó £500 go £1,500. Ainmhí óg ab ea beagach gach ceann acu sin, áfach, agus iad i ngá le tréimhse fhada traenála, agus, dá dheasca sin, tógfaidh sé cúpla bliain chun a bhfuil ar a gcumas mar léimeadóirí ag taispeántais idirnáisiúnta a thabhairt chun cinn. Ba mhór an mhaith don Scoil Eachaíochta anois cúpla léimeadóir a bheith inti ab eol a bheith thar barr ach is beag an chosúlacht go mbeidh a leithéidí le fáil. Is é is dóichí go mbeidh orainn dul sa seans le hainmhithe óga agus, trí thriail agus cuileáil, féachaint le foireann de léimeadóirí fíor-mhaithe a chur le chéile, ach leanfaidh Bord Ceannaithe na gCapall de bheith san airdeall ar aon léimeadóirí oiriúnacha is eol a bheith ar fheabhas agus a bheadh ullamh chun dul sna comórtais idirnáisiúnta láithreach.

Le hionchas líon na marcach a bheadh ar fáil a mhéadú agus chun soláthar a dhéanamh do mharcaigh eile a theacht ina ndiaidh, coimeádadh ceithre dhaltas ar leithligh anuraidh d'iarratasóirí a mbeadh taithi acu ar mharcaíocht ach is trua nár tháinig aon iarrthóirí oiriúnacha i láthair. Táthar ag súil leis an tairiscint chéanna a dhéanamh i mbliana. Ba cheart go mbeadh tarraingt ag na caíonna sin ag daoine óga a bhfuil spéis acu i bhfiach nó i léimneach taispeántais mar spórt nó mar chaitheamh aimsire. I dteannta gairm beatha a chur in áirithe tri ghlacadh leis an tairiscint, tá caoi ann freisin do dhaoine óga cáil idirnáisiúnta a bhaint amach dóibh féin, don Arm agus don tír.

Tá laghdú de £10,935 ar Fho-Mhírcheann P.1.—Cosaint Shibhialta. Tá laghdú ar an soláthar a rinneadh d'éidí mar tá stoic áirithe á gcoimeád ag mo Roinnse in oirchill ar a gceannach ag na húdaráis áitiúla lena dtabhairt amach do phearsanra Cosanta Sibhialta. Is leor na stoic sin agus na stoic laghdaithe dá ndéantar soláthar anois do riachtanais na bliana seo. I ngach slí eile, méadaitear an soláthar atá déanta do threalamh agus do stórais i gcoitinne. Ar na nithe móra, tá oirnéisí breise radiac chun pearsanra Cosanta Sibhialta ar fuaid na tíre a thraenáil in astitim raidighníomhach a bhrath agus a thomhas; roinnt d'innill nua-aimseartha dóiteán chun pearsanra den Fho-Sheirbhís Múchta Dóiteán a thraenáil, agus otharchóistí chun pearsanra de Sheirbhís Taismeach na Cosanta Sibhialta a thraenáil.

Cé gur lú go mór ná mar is gá an méid earcach atá ag teacht isteach sa Chosaint Shibhialta, is ábhar misnigh a fheiceáil ó fhigiúirí na n-údarás áitiúil, mar sin féin, go raibh méadú de timpeall le 1,000 ar an uimhir a tháinig isteach anuraidh. 4,800 nó mar sin, méid iomlán na ndaoine faoi láthair a thairg iad féin chun na seirbhíse seo. I gcoitinne, tuigeann na húdaráis áitiúla go maith an gá atá le breis saorálaithe agus tá a ndícheall á dhéanamh acu chun iadsin a fháil. Tá a coin á dhéanamh ag mo Roinnse, freisin, trí éidí agus trealamh dá lán saorálaithe, a bheith ar fáil inti.

Maidir leis an Eagraíocht seo, an Chosaint Shibhialta, is ró-shásúil an rud é, mar a dhealraíonn anois, go bhfuil lárlíon úsáideach á bhunú ina lán bailte móra ar fuaid na tíre, ag na daoine a chuaigh isteach inti. Bíonn Cleachtais agus Campaí Deireadh Seachtaine ar siúl ag cuid de na grúpaí sin agus, i gcontaetha áirithe, tá siad ag socrú eatarthu féin chun Cleachtais a dhéanamh le chéile. Rud spreagúil is ea é sin agus, i mo thuairim, comhartha chomh maith go bhfuil an Eagraíocht á daingniú go teann agus bun láidir fúithi ar a bhféadfar tógáil i dtráth.

Ba cheart dom a rá, freisin, go bhfuiltear ag dul ar aghaidh le pleanáil ghinearálta na Cosanta Sibhialta don Stát. Mar shampla, sna míonna seo chugainn, táthar ag súil go mbeidh socair ag gach údarás áitiúil cad iad fo-ranna teorann an chontae-bhoirg nó an chontae, i dtaca le rialú ginearálta don Chosaint Shibhialta ina líomatáiste feidhmiúcháin. De thoradh an cor seo sa phleanáil, is usa go mór múnla na heagraíochta i ngach contae-bhorg agus contae a thabhairt chun cinn. Fairis sin, tá a lán gnéithe eile den phleanáil á mbreithniú faoi láthair ar a n-áirítear cumarsáidí, rabhaidh a thabhairt, beartas i dtaobh scáthlán, aslonnú agus a leithéidí sin.

Is chuige an obair sin chun teacht ar réitigh a fhéadfaí a chur i bhfeidhm ar na fadhbanna éagusúla a bheadh ann don tír seo, agus droch-iarsmaí cogaidh ag cur uirthi. Go deimhin, tá an ghné seo de phleanáil na Cosanta Sibhialta ar na gnéithe is mó le rá mar, má thagann éigeandáil orainn, beidh socair againn ar a laghad, cad í an tslí is fearr ina bhféadfaimid a droch-iarsmaí ar an bpobal a mhaolú.

Roimh dhul ar aghaidh dom ón gCosaint Shibhialta, ba cheart a rá, b'fhéidir, go ndéanfar feasta, mar a rinneadh cheana, gach cabhair agus gach misneach uaimse agus ó mo Roinn, a thabhairt go fonnmhar do na húdaráis áitiúla i gcomhlíonadh a n-oibleagáidí reachtúla.

Tagann na hoibleagáidí i gceist faoi na hAchtanna um Réamh-chúram in aghaidh Aer-Ruathar, a thugann ar na húdaráis áitiúla a ullmhú agus a chur i bhfeidhm maidir lena líomatáistí feidhmiúcháin féin, scéimeanna chun daoine agus maoin a chaomhnú ar dhíobháil nó damáiste i gcás amas ón aer agus chun iarsmaí na díobhála nó an damáiste sin a mhaolú. Mar a dúirt mé cheana, tuigeann formhór na n-údarás áitiúil a bhfuil ceangailte orthu de réir dlí ina thaobh sin agus tá siad ag obair i gcomhar iomlán le mo Roinnse ag iarraidh bearta éifeachtúla i dtaca leis an gCosaint Shibhialta a chur á ndéanamh.

Is eol dom áfach, ó thuairiscí a bhí sna nuachtáin le déanaí, agus is dona an scéal é, gur dhiúltaigh cúpla údarás áitiúil do sholáthar ar bith nó do sholáthar cothrom a dhéanamh ina meastacháin le haghaidh na Cosanta Sibhialta sa bhliain atá romhainn. De réir na dtuairiscí adúradh, nochtadh tuairimí áirithe á phléadáil nach ceart go n-iarrfaí ar an údarás aitiúil aon cuid de ohostas na Cosanta Sibhialta a íoc.

Dúradh, mar shampla, gur ceart go ndéanfadh an tArm an obair seo. Taispeánann dearcadh den sórt sin nach bhfuil eolas ar bith ag na daoine sin ar an gCosaint Shibhialta—eagraíocht arb é a bun agus a barr, an pobal a eagrú agus a thraenáil ina nduine is ina nduine i slí go bhféadfaidh siad, iad féin, a gclanna agus a gcomharsana a chaomhnú ar na contúirtí a ghabhann le cogadh eithneach. Má thagann cogadh den sórt sin, is é rud is tábhachtaí ina thaobh, oiread daoine agus is féidir a thabhairt slán as agus, mura ndéanfaidh na daoine an t-ullmhúchan is gá chun iad féin a chosaint, go mór mór ar an astitim raidighníomhach, is ró-mhairg dóibh ar uair na héigne.

Ní fhéadfadh an tArm na feidhmeanna go léir a bhaineann leis an gCosaint Shibhialta a chomhlíonadh. Tá a lán do na feidhmeanna sin cosúil le seirbhísí a chuirtear ar fáil ag na húdaráis áitiúila de ghnáth, fiú amháin in am síochána agus, orthu sin tá :— daoine breoite agus daoine gortaithe a chur in ospidéal; múchadh dóiteán; tithe a chur ar fáil do dhaoine a bheadh i ngá leo; cabhrú le daoine i gcruatan; is é sin le rá, feidhmeanna a mbaineann gach ceann acu le fóirithint ar dhaoine agus le maoin a shábháil; a dhéantar ag na húdaráis áitiúla mar chuid de ghnáth-obair an lae; agus nárbh fholáir a mhéadú go mór i gcás cogadh a theacht. Is ar éigin is gá a rá nach bhféadfadh an tArm na dualgais sin a chur díobh.

Ar chuma ar bith, is cosaint ghníomhach príomh-fheidhm an Airm agus is chuige sin a eagrú agus a thraenáil. Dá dtagadh cogadh, chaithfí an tArm a leathnú agus a mhéadú go mór chun go bhféadfadh sé a phríomh-ghnó a dhéanamh agus, dá dhroim sin, ní bheadh ar a chumas cúram na Cosanta Sibhialta a thógaint air féin. Ní ionann sin is a rá dá dtarlaíodh, i gcás amas ón aer, an tArm a bheith saor ó ghníomhaiochtaí eile, nach dtabharfadh sé gach cabhair ab fhéidir do lucht na Cosanta Sibhialta. Ach dá bhféadfaimís bheith cinnte féin go mbeadh an tArm ar fáil chuige sin, níor lú an gá Cosaint Shibhialta a bheith ann, go mór mór sa mhéid go mbaineann le bardaigh, múchadh dóiteán, an tSeirbhís Taismeach agus an tSeirbhís Leasa.

Cé gur cheart liom an argóint sin a bhréagnú go bhféadfadh nó gur chóir go bhféadfadh an tArm amháin bheith freagrach sa Chosaint Shilhialta, caithfear cuimhneamh ar an ní tábhachtach seo gur cuma cad iad na tuairimí atá ag corr-chomhaltaí de na húdaráis áitiúla nó cad í an dilseacht lena nochtar iad, ní dhéanann siad difríocht dá laghad don dlí atá ann sa scéal. Tiocfaidh de bhearta den sórt atá luaite agam, ní amháin drochthoradh ar na hiarrachtaí mall-réidhe atá á ndéanamh chun an lárlíon is lú d'Eagraíocht Chosanta Sibhialta a chur ar a bhoinn, ach rud níos measa fós, is é sin, baint ó mhisneach na saorálaithe atá toilteanach a n-am saor a chaitheamh le traenáil Chosanta Sibhíalta.

Ba mhór an dochar a dhéanfaí don éifeachtúlacht agus den mheanmnacht dá gceaptaí nach raibh na Comhlachtaí atá freagrach sa tseirbhís seo, fabhrach don Chosaint Shíbhialta. Agus cé go bhfuil mé muiníneach go leanfaidh na húdaráis áitiúla dá gcion féin a dhéanamh go héifeachtach san obair seo, is féidir go mbeidh orm an beart a bhreithniú ba ghá a dhéanamh i gcásanna nach bhfuil na hoibleagáidí reachtúla á gcomhlíonadh.

Tá an méid £15,450 atá á sholáthar i bhFo-Mhírcheann X3 mar dheontas-i-gcabhair do Chumann Croise Deirge na hÉireann £2,500 níos lí ná an méid a soláthraíodh anuraidh. Gach bliain, bíonnan deontas-i-gcabhair is gá ag brath ar na gníomhaíochtaí is dealraitheach a mbeidh an Cumann páirteach iontu agus, lena chois sin, an méid airgid a mbíonn sé féin ag súil lena bhailiú. Ar an bhfigiúr de £15,450 i meastacháin na bliana seo, áirítear £10,000 i leith imeachtaí laethúla an Chumainn; £5,000 mar chothabháil ar ghrúpa de Dhídeanaithe Bán-Ruiseacha ón tSín Thuaidh, a bhfuil ocht nduine dhéag díobh faoi chúram an Chumainn anois sa Teach ar a dtugtar "Naomh Aindrias" i Ráth Maonais; agus tá £450 ann mar shíntiús ón Stát do Choiste Idirnáisiúnta na Croise Deirge.

Leanann An Cumann dá obair inmholta—ag tabhairt faoiseamh do dhaoine i gcruatan agus i nguais. Ghabh sé air féin an achainí a dhéanamh ar son na nDídeanaithe Domhanda, agus tugadh deontas le déanaí mar fhóirithint ar dhaoine i ngátar éis an crith talún tubaisteach i Maracó.

Sílim go bhfuil cur síos déanta agam anois ar phríomh-ghnéithe an Mheastacháin agus, le linn dom an díospóireacht a chur chun críche, beidh áthas orm aon eolas eile is gá a thabhairt.

The gross Estimate for 1960/61 is £7,657,987, and the net Estimate, after deduction of Appropriations-in-Aid, is £7,472,740. This is an increase of £742,661 over the net Estimate for 1959/60 as itself increased by a transfer of £6,179 from the Vote for remuneration in respect of Civil Service pay increases. There must also be taken into account, however, the supplementary amount of £32,000 recently voted in respect of the increases in Army pay and not shown in the Estimates volume. Therefore, the increase is one of £710,661 rather than £742,661.

The major portion of the Estimate is accounted for by the provisions for the pay, allowances and maintenance of na Buan-Óglaigh. These provisions are spread over a number of subheads and total, in round figures, almost £4,700,000 or about 63% of the net Estimate. As in previous years, the Estimate, in relation to Na Buan-Óglaigh, is framed on the basis of the full peace establishment of 1,325 officers and 11,561 men, deductions being then made in respect of the numbers by which the actual strength during the year is likely to be below the establishment. In effect, the Estimate caters for a net average strength of 1,152 officers, 79 cadets and 8,250 men of all Corps and Services.

It is proposed to maintain an average strength of 8,250 men during 1960/61—an increase of 250 on the average strength for which the Vote for 1959/60 provided. Even with the increased numbers na Buan-Óglaigh will be fully taxed to carry out the increased duties in connection with An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil, coupled with the demands of training and normal military administration. The cost of the 250 men, spread over the Estimate, is £72,260.

As from the 15th December last, increased rates of pay and allowances have come into operation for Óglaigh na hÉireann. These, together with the increases for the Civil Service staff of the Department and civilians employed with the Forces, account for approximately £440,000 or almost 60% of the net increase in the Estimate. The increases are shown or embodied in Subhead A—Pay; Subhead B—Marriage Allowance ; Subhead C—Pay of Civilians attached to Units ; Subhead E—Pay of Officers of the Medical Corps, etc.; Subhead K—Provisions and Allowances in lieu ; Subhead P.2— Pay of An tSeirbhís Chabhlaigh ; Subhead S.1—Pay of Crews of Transport Vessels ; Subhead Y—Departmental Salaries, etc., and Subhead Y.2—An Cúltaca. The increases of £20,730 in Subhead M—Clothing and Equipment, and £3,471 in Subhead W—Insurance, are due mainly to the proposed increased strength.

During the last year, the standard of morale, conduct, deportment and discipline continued to be satisfactory in all branches of Óglaigh na hÉireann. Recruitment was also satisfactory and enabled the average strength of 8,000 men for which the Vote for 1959/60 provided to be maintained. There were further intakes of recruits for the various apprentice and direct entrant schemes, and a number of men were also recently recruited for training as surveyors in the Complacht Suirbhéireachta, An Cór Innealtóirí. As regards An Cúltaca, there were slight increases in the strength of An Cúltacha Oifigeach (An Chéad Líne) and the effective strengths of An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil and An Slua Muirí. The effective strength of An Cúltacha Fear (An Chéad Líne) shows a decrease. The strength of that component at any particular time depends largely, of course, on the number of transfers from the Permanent Force.

Two officers are still serving with the United Nations Truce Supervision Organisation—one as Chairman of the Egyptian-Israeli Mixed Armistice Commission at Gaza and the other holding an appointment with the Israel-Syria Mixed Armistice Commission in Jerusalem. The fifty officers who served in the Lebanon have been awarded the United Nations Medal, and the medals were presented to them recently.

On 1st October last, the scheme for the complete integration of An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil with Na Buan-Óglaigh became operative. The broad purpose of the scheme is, as Deputies are aware, to provide, in peacetime, an organisation for Óglaigh na hÉireann which will enable it to put into the field, on mobilisation, a greater and more suitable force than could hitherto have been achieved. Three new brigades and some other field units have been formed as a result of integration. The importance of this new concept lies in the fact that, in the event of a world conflict, little or no time may be available to organise and train after the outbreak of hostilities.

This scheme is a radical departure from that which existed previously. A new rôle has been given to the FCA, that of providing the bulk of the personnel for the combat units. Many new combat units have been organised within the various corps which must now be trained and fitted to take their place with the newly-formed brigades and, in some cases, with the brigades which already existed. In the main, the effect upon the FCA is that they are now required to become efficient in the handling of many new weapons. All ranks of the FCA will be required to become proficient in the tactics and techniques of their new units so that the teamwork, so vital in the modern battle, may be steadily built up. The development of the FCA over the years renders the force quite capable of undertaking its new and important task.

Many more officers and men of Na Buan-Óglaigh have been allotted to the task of training the new FCA units. The increase of £15,848 in Subhead G —Subsistence and other Allowances— is due mainly, and that of £14,164 in Subhead H—Transport of Troops—is due partly to this factor. New training devices and methods have been studied and tested to ensure that the FCA training periods are most profitably used. This has been achieved without any increase in the establishment strength of Na Buan-Óglaigh.

The integration scheme became effective during the quieter period of FCA training. The past months have largely been spent upon the setting up of the new units and the introduction of the personnel to the new weapons. All indications point to the success of the scheme and it is confidently expected that a firm basis to provide an efficient combat organisation has been laid. As a result of the integration, 102 Captaein of the FCA have been promoted to the rank of Ceannfort. This is the first time on which officers of An Fórsa have attained senior rank.

I may mention that, arising out of the integration, the question of the introduction of a standard uniform of new design for both branches of Óglaigh na hÉireann is being examined at present. I cannot say at this stage, however, what the outcome of this will be as, among other things, increased costs and the utilisation of existing stocks will be important considerations.

In order that An tAer Chór may carry out its commitments for the advanced training of cadets and pilot officer personnel, it is necessary to provide for the purchase of suitable aircraft to replace the "Spitfire" machines which have reached the end of their service life. In fact, were it not for the very high standard of maintenance in the Corps, these aircraft would long since have been unserviceable. With the disappearance of the Spitfires imminent, the only aircraft available for advanced training are the three Vampire jets and these are quite inadequate for the number of personnel in training. In seeking to provide new aircraft to replace the Spitfires, we have to face the fact that, in this jet age, suitable advanced trainers of the non-jet or piston type are no longer available for purchase. Indeed, even for elementary training, some countries have developed and are going over to jet aircraft.

A fundamental feature of An tAer Chór organisation is the Scheme of Short Service Commissions which has as one of its principal objects the production of pilots to fill vacancies in Aer Lingus. There is as yet no other national source from which such pilots can be provided and consequently the continued and effective operation of this scheme is essential. Some idea of its importance may be gained from the fact that in 1959/60 alone, 16 pilots from An tAer Chór were released to take up service with Aer Lingus. Altogether since 1952, some 36 pilots have been released to fill vacancies with that company.

In the circumstances, the purchase of three further Vampire jet aircraft is proposed. The provision is made in Subhead O—General Stores—and accounts for £147,000 of the increase of £169,470 in that subhead, the remainder being attributable to the necessity to purchase signal and other badly-needed equipment and tools.

It may not be amiss to mention that, in addition to its air training and other military duties. An tAer Chór provides valuable services to other Departments of State. In the * field of photography, it has cooperated during the year with An Roinn Talmhaíochta, An Roinn Tailte and An Roinn Poist agus Telegrafa, Oifig na nOibreacha Poiblí and An tSuirbhéireacht Geolaíochta in the taking and provision of large numbers of aerial photographs—actually about 4,000—required for the study and advancement of various important projects. An Chór is also on regular call to assist An Roinn Iompair agus Cumhachta in the testing of air navigational aid equipment at Shannon and Collinstown Airports, including the exercising of the civil radar operator personnel at these places.

An tSeirbhís Chabhlaigh continued to carry out fishery protection duties throughout the year. The introduction, from 1st January last, of new base lines authorised under the Maritime Jurisdiction Act has greatly increased the area of sea, or waters, for which protection has to be provided. This, of course, means increased responsibility and duty for An tSeirbhís Chabhlaigh. L.E. Maev has recently had a major refit completed and there are now three corvettes fully serviceable.

During the active herring fishery period off the south-east coast at the beginning of this year two corvettes were available and in constant surveillance of the critical area.

It has been decided that, commencing on 1st April, An tSeirbhís Chabhlaigh will take over responsibility for the receipt and dissemination of marine distress messages and co-ordination of consequential rescue measures. This service has hitherto been the responsibility of An Roinn Iompair agus Cumhachta. Arrangements are being completed for the necessary co-ordination with An Roinn Poist agus Telegrafa, the Garda Síochána and other agencies concerned.

It was decided some two years ago that in future all cadets entering An tSeirbhís Chabhlaigh should receive their entire cadet training in this country. Up to that time, it had been necessary to send cadets for their initial training to British naval establishments. With the increasing efficiency of the service and the consolidation of experience of the officers derived from training and courses, both at home and abroad, it was considered that the time had come when this should be no longer necessary. A scheme of training has been evolved which provides that naval cadets undergo their first year's training at An Coláiste Míleata along with first year Army cadets and take their second year's training at the Naval School, Haulbowline. This desirable development is now in operation and An tSeirbhís Chabhlaigh commenced training its first batch of four cadets at Haulbowline on 1st February last.

An Slua Muirí, like An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil, continues enthusiastically to maintain its strength and perfect its training.

As Deputies will see, Subhead P— Defensive Equipment—shows an increase of £96,520. Of this, £19,522 is to meet an increase in carry-over, i.e. stores ordered but not paid for before 31st March, 1960, due to protracted deliveries. The principal and only new item in this subhead is a provision of £50,000 in respect of the purchase of a quantity of a new medium range anti-tank weapon and ammunition of a type which we have not had previously. The quantity being purchased will be sufficient to meet immediate training needs but does not provide for the eventual requirements of Óglaigh na hÉireann. The balance of the increase in the subhead—approximately £27,000—is required generally to defray the cost of increased purchases of weapons and ammunitions which have been kept extremely low in the past couple of years.

During the financial year 1959/60, a new gymnasium at the Curragh was completed and opened, a new dining hall and cookhouse at Athlone was all but completed and work was commenced on the erection of 24 new married quarters for soldiers in Cork. The new Catholic Church at the Curragh, erected by the Commissioners of Public Works, has been completed and a new dining hall and cookhouse, also being erected at Dún Phluincéid, by the Commissioners, should be ready for occupation this year.

Attention also continues to be given to the improvement, in other ways, of amenities for soldiers living in barracks, and this accounts to a large extent for the increase of £10,780 in Subhead R and £13,955 in Subhead V. The provision of all these amenities is bound to have beneficial effects, and there is no doubt that the benefit of the good housing already provided in Dublin, the Curragh and Athlone is reflected in the well-being of the occupants.

Out of a total of 1,599 employees provided for under Subhead C, 988 will be employed with An Cór Innealtoirí mainly on the care and maintenance of existing military establishments and barracks and on the execution of new works on military property. This represents a slight increase in the figure for 1959/60. The balance of 611 employees are tradesmen, labourers, storemen, clerks, typists, etc., employed with various Corps. There is a reduction in the number provided for An tSeirbhís Chabhlaigh, due to completion of the major refits of the corvettes.

It is proposed that this year Fuireann Mharchaíochta an Airm will undertake a normal Continental, American and home programme and provision is made, therefore, in Subhead A.2— Expenses of Equitation Teams at Horse Shows—for expenditure of £10,000, an increase of £7,500.

During the past few years, a great deal of attention has been devoted to the improvement of Fuireann Mharchaíochta an Airm. The difficulties of producing a good team under modern conditions are very considerable, and efforts in this direction call for patience and perseverance. I am satisfied that progress is being made and that we have now a nucleus of some very good horses and riders who, with reasonable luck, should make a name for themselves in the coming years. The team is at present on tour in France and results so far have been encouraging.

Thanks to the increased provision made last year for the purchase of horses, the Horse Purchase Board was enabled to buy six animals at prices ranging from £500 to £1,500. Nearly all these, however, were young animals needing prolonged training and it will take a few years to develope their full capabilities as international show jumpers. A few top-class proven jumpers would be a great asset to An Scoil Eachaíochta at this juncture, but the prospect of getting them appears to be remote. We shall very likely have to take our chances with young animals and, by a process of trial and elimination, try to build up a team of really good jumpers, but the Horse Purchase Board will continue to look out for any suitable proven jumpers which would be ready for immediate international competition.

Last year, with a view to augmenting the number of available riders and to provide for succession, four cadetship vacancies were specially reserved for applicants with some equitation experience. It is regrettable that no suitable candidates presented themselves. It is hoped to repeat the offer this year. These openings should prove attractive to youths who are interested in hunting or show jumping as sport or recreation. They offer a career as well as an opportunity of gaining international distiction for themselves, for the Army and for the country.

There is a decrease of £10,935 under Subhead P.1—Civil Defence. Reduced provision is made for uniforms as certain stocks are held by my Department in anticipation of purchase by the local authorities for issue to Civil Defence personnel. These stocks, together with the reduced quantities now provided for, will meet estimated requirements for the coming year. Otherwise, increased provision is made for equipment and stores generally. The major items include additional radiac instruments for the training of Civil Defence personnel throughout the country in the detection and measurement of radio-active fallout; some up-to-date fire engines for the training of Auxiliary Fire Service personnel, and ambulances for the training of Casualty Service personnel of the Civil Defence Organisation.

While Civil Defence recruiting falls very much short of requirements, it is nevertheless encouraging to find that according to local authority returns, there was an increase in the last year of about 1,000 in the numbers who have joined Civil Defence. The total number of Volunteers is now in the region of 4,800. In general, the local authorities recognise the need for more volunteers and are doing their best to get them. My Department is likewise doing its part in having available the uniforms and equipment for many additional volunteers.

One of the gratifying features which is now becoming apparent in relation to the Civil Defence organisation is that those who have joined are building up a useful nucleus in many towns throughout the country. Some of these groups are engaging in exercises and week-end camps and some counties are combining to carry out joint exercises. This is a heartening development and it shows, I believe, that the organisation is now taking root and that we have a good foundation on which to build.

I should also mention that progress is being made with the overall Civil Defence planning for the State. For instance, within the next few months it is hoped that each local authority will have decided upon the territorial sub-divisions of the county borough or county for the purpose of an overall Civil Defence control in its functional area. This phase in planning will greatly facilitate the development of the pattern of the organisation within each county borough and county. In addition there are many other aspects of planning now being studied, including such matters as communications, warning, shelter policy and evacuation.

This work is aimed at providing solutions for a variety of the problems that would arise should this country suffer from the effects of war. Indeed one of the most important factors of Civil Defence planning is that, should a crisis come on us, we shall have at least worked out the manner in which we can best provide ways and means of mitigating the effects on the people generally.

Before passing from Civil Defence, I should perhaps say that every encouragement and assistance that I and my Department can give to local authorities in the carrying out of their statutory obligations will as hitherto be most readily forthcoming.

These obligations arise under the Air Raid Precautions Acts, which impose on local authorities the duty of preparing and carrying out, as regards their own functional areas, schemes for the protection of persons and property from injury or damage in the event of attack from the air and for the minimising of such injury or damage. As I have already indicated, most of the local authorities recognise their statutory responsibilities in this regard and are co-operating fully with my Department in endeavouring to organise efficient Civil Defence measures. Unfortunately, I am aware, however, from recent press reports that, in a couple of instances, the local authority has refused to make either any or adequate provision in its estimates for Civil Defence for the coming year. According to these reports, certain views have been expressed as to why the local authority should not be called upon to bear any part of the Civil Defence.

For example, it has been stated that the Army should do this work. Such an attitude reveals a complete lack of appreciation of the nature of Civil Defence, which is essentially the organisation and training of the individual citizens so that they may protect themselves, their families and their neighbours from the hazards of nuclear warfare. If such a war comes, the emphasis will be on survival, and unless the people take the necessary steps to protect themselves, particularly in relation to radio-active fallout, survival will not be possible. The Army could not possibly carry out all the functions visualised by Civil Defence.

Many of these functions are similar or analogous to services normally provided by the local authorities even in peace time, such as hospitalising the sick and injured, fire-fighting, re-housing those in need, assisting the destitute—all life and property saving functions performed as part of the normal day-to-day work of the local authorities, which in the event of war would need to be greatly expanded. The Army obviously could not carry out these duties. In any event, the primary function of the Army is active military defence and it is organised and trained towards that end. In the event of war, it would have to be greatly expanded to fulfil its primary role and could not undertake direct responsibility for Civil Defence.

Should it happen that the Army is not otherwise committed in the event of attack from the air, it could and would, of course, render all possible assistance to Civil Defence. But even if we could be sure the Army would be available for this purpose, the necessity for Civil Defence would still remain, particularly as far as the warden, firefighting, casualty and welfare services are concerned.

While I thought it well to refute this particular contention that the Army could or should be solely responsible for Civil Defence, the main fact remains that, whatever views individual members of local authorities may hold and however sincerely those views may be expressed, they do not alter the existing law in the matter. Actions such as those to which I have referred can result not only in a very adverse effect on the slow but steady efforts which are being made to build up the minimum nucleus of a Civil Defence organisation, but are also most discouraging to the volunteers who are prepared to sacrifice their spare time for Civil Defence training. It would indeed have an undesirable effect on efficiency and morale if the impression were to be created that the bodies responsible for this service were not sympathetically disposed towards Civil Defence. While, therefore, I am confidently expecting the continued effective co-operation of local authorities in this matter, I may have to consider what action may be necessary in cases where the statutory obligations are not being fulfilled.

The amount provided in subhead X3 as a grant-in-aid of Cumann Croise Deirge na hÉireann at £15,450 represents a reduction of £2,500 as compared with last year's provision. The grant-in-aid required each year depends upon An Cumann's anticipated activities and the amount which it expects to raise itself. The figure of £15,450 in this year's estimates includes a sum of £10,000 in respect of the normal day-to-day activities of An Cumann, a sum of £5,000 in respect of the maintenance of the group of White Russian refugees from North China—there are at present 18 being looked after by An Cumann in the premises "Naomh Aindrias," Rathmines—and £450 in respect of the State contribution to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

An Cumann continues its commendable activities in the field of humanitarian relief. It undertook the appeal for subscriptions in aid of World Refugees, and a grant was recently made for the relief of distress following the Moroccan earthquake disaster.

I think I have covered all the main provisions of the Estimate and, when concluding the debate, shall be glad to supply any further information required.

I move:

"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."

Perhaps it would be best if, before becoming critical, I said the nice things first. It might sweeten whatever has to come afterwards. I want to congratulate the officers assigned to the United Nations Commission that their service was so effectively recognised by the bestowal upon them of United Nations medals. While not wishing to be too critical, I think, in regard to that ceremony, the Minister should have had a wider representation of the public present. I know it is not always easy to manage these matters, but it was a very important occasion and there should have been more publicity for it. It is gratifying to learn that the officers did their work well and in the discharge of their duties demonstrated that this country could produce first-class material, both in administrative and executive capacity. I join with the Minister in congratulating them on that work.

The Minister tells us that the integration of the F.C.A. with the Army is progressing but he did not give us any indication that he was satisfied with the progress made. I know that was inferred, and that the integration will leave the Army with a strong striking force, but I should like him to tell us just exactly what progress has been made, and if he is satisfied that the number of training officers and the expenditure provided are sufficient. In a case like that there should be no cribbing. Ample facilities should be made available. Some of these officers, N.C.O.s and men, are out in the country and I think it is only fair that all their expenses should be met, and that there should be no danger of any of them suffering financial or other difficulties in the discharge of their duties. I know that some of them are young and it might not be too easy to satisfy them fully but, at the same time, it is important that they should not be confined.

The Minister has told us that the Estimate is framed on the basis of a full peace establishment of 1,325 officers and 11,561 men but that in effect it caters for an average of 1,152 officers, 79 cadets and 8,250 men of all corps and services. When I was Minister for Defence I could never understand why we had this fictitious figure of what the strength of the Army should be. We have this figure on paper but in actual fact we never realise it, and I think it should be dropped. Of course it can be argued that it is the ideal to be achieved but I do not think it is absolutely necessary.

I am glad to note that the Minister pays tribute to the standard of morale, conduct, deportment and discipline which continues to be satisfactory in all branches. That is something which every Deputy in the House is glad to hear and I want to congratulate both the Minister and the General Staff for that happy state of affairs and, of course, the men also who themselves contribute to it.

It is true to say that there is not sufficient appreciation of the need for training in civil defence. I should like the Minister to tell us the number of local authorities that are not participating as effectively in this matter as he would wish. The idea of trying to leave it to the other fellow to do is not good enough and, should another war break out, which God forbid, everybody will be blamed for not seeing to it that the people were prepared. I join with the Minister and the Government in appealing to local authorities, and the public generally, to volunteer for this work and to undergo the necessary training required to meet danger should it arise. There is an imperative duty upon people as citizens of the State to do that, and I should like to add my voice in encouraging them to take it up in a more effective way. If there was an outbreak of war, and there was any atomic fall-out, it would be too late then to learn what to do. It would be of great advantage to themselves, their friends, relatives and neighbours if they were prepared and I am glad to learn that the Red Cross is doing its usual valuable work.

I do not want to press the Minister but I should like him to tell us what headway is being made with regard to the rehabilitation of those in St. Andrew's in Rathmines. Are they to remain there for a long time or are they going to get employment? It is not satisfactory to have them there for a long time without any fixed plan as to what their ultimate destinies may be.

I had just one reason for moving that this Estimate be referred back— to give me an opportunity of saying to the Minister that, when he is addressing a section of the Army, he is not to regard it as a political organisation. The Army is the Army of the nation, of every one of us. It is ours and its problem is a problem of defence, not the defence of any one section of the country but of every one of us. Since the State and the Army were established every Minister for Defence, as far as I am aware, took particular care that no controversial matters were raised in addressing the Army at any time. I shall leave it at that, but I feel it is a thing that had to be mentioned.

Surely the Deputy is going to give some instance? Surely he must give some reason for saying that?

The Minister knows it well himself.

There is no instance. Give some instance so that the charge can be replied to. The Deputy is drawing on his imagination.

I shall put down a question to the Minister the next time he does it.

Why not mention it here? It never happened.

In answer to a question about Clonmel barracks on the 3rd March, 1960, the Minister said it was not the intention to reduce the force there to any great extent. He said there would be no appreciable reduction, but in answer to a further question it was pointed out that the strength there was around 400, 334, 344, and so on, and it is now down to 211. He did not keep his promise in that matter. However, I suppose there is some explanation of that, and that it would be his intention to increase that number once he gave the undertaking. I again leave that matter in that particular way.

The Air Corps must keep up with modern developments and it is imperative that they be trained in the new jet aircraft but very great cost is involved. Maintenance and training cost a great deal. The Minister proposes to purchase three Vampire jet aircraft. I suppose we have to take it that that is necessary but it is a serious matter. It is true, of course, that the Air Corps train pilots for Aer Lingus and other Irish air companies. I am glad to see that 36 pilots who were trained in the Air Corps have been taken into Aer Lingus. That is better than taking pilots from any other Air Corps.

I feel that the Naval Service is still inadequate. We still have the three corvettes. In view of the necessity to protect our fisheries, it is time we had a speedier and more manoeuvrable type of boat. I presume that the Minister has been advised on that matter by the naval authorities.

The Minister and the naval authorities are satisfied that it is no longer necessary to send personnel for training outside the country, that they can now be trained here. That is very gratifying.

With regard to defensive equipment, we have never been told exactly what the purchases are but I am glad that the new medium range anti-tank weapon is being made available and that all arms of the Forces will be trained in that weapon. It is important that they should have that training.

I am glad to know that progress has been made with the new Church in the Curragh, the provision of married quarters and other developments during the year. These amenities are of great benefit to all concerned.

It is an extraordinary position that more than one-eighth of the total number in the Defence Forces are civilians. It takes one civilian and a number of officers to run eight men. However, that has been the position for a long time.

The distinct improvement in the Equitation School is very gratifying. I would suggest to the Minister that young horses are better than the so-called experienced jumpers. The experienced jumper you can get today is experienced because of the handling of some individual. He is a one-man horse. It is almost impossible to get a good jumper that will jump well, no matter who is riding him.

Under Army discipline.

The rider has to be used to the horse. I would suggest that the Equitation School should take their time, even though there may be criticism if they do not do well or suggestions that civilians would do better. By taking time, by having patience, a first-class team can be built up. I am glad to note that four vacancies were offered to young boys with equitation experience, but I do not think that that was sufficiently advertised or generally known. The Minister says that four such vacancies will be offered this year. This is an opportunity for young fellows of which they should avail. I wish I were a youngster again and could avail of it.

Every young Irishman is a horseman, unless he is a coward in the sense that he is afraid of a horse. Any fellow who has courage can be trained if he has the desire to become a good horseman. A boy who has a fear of horses, of course, will never be a good horseman.

What percentage of the young men with secondary school education have the opportunity, prior to joining the Army, of becoming skilled horsemen?

In certain counties, a fair percentage.

Therefore, you are going to confine four cadetships to a limited number?

No, I am not. My view is that there are boys who can show that they have an interest in equitation.

Farmers' sons.

They could take training. Remember, I would prefer, and I am sure those in charge of the Equitation School would prefer, that the trainees had not acquired any bad habits.

That is right. They do not have to be skilled.

It is easier to train the young boy who has never been on a horse, provided he likes horses.

Give them all a fair chance.

They all have a fair chance. This is an incentive and it is a good one. Of course, if Roscommon has no hunt club, it ought to have one. It is time it had.

I am sure there is a good snob hunt club in Longford.

We shall take on anybody the Deputy can name. We have a topper.

That is what the four cadetships are for——

Let us not go into these matters here.

I do not think the Minister has any responsibility as to whether there is a good hunt club in Longford or Roscommon.

Acting Chairman

Certainly not.

I do not think he has any responsibility for that. He can leave that to Deputy McQuillan and myself. I should like to know if it is still intended to send Army personnel on training courses abroad. The vote is there, but it is considerably reduced. This is a valuable asset and the Minister should make full use of it. The Minister referred to the apprenticeship scheme, but he did not give us any indication as to how it is progressing. This is also a very valuable scheme, and it is important that Deputies should know what progress has been made in this direction.

Generally speaking, the reports I have from the Army—although I have not sought reports to any great extent —are good. They seem to be making progress in every direction. I am glad to know that the Irish language is being acquired and fostered in the Army. It is important that our armed forces should be fully equipped to carry out all their duties in the native language. It has always been one of the hallmarks of our defence forces and I am glad the Minister has introduced his Estimate in the manner in which he has. Use of the language by the Army could have far-reaching effects on the community as a whole and I wish every success to the efforts being made. There is no person who could be otherwise than happy that such a development has taken place.

In general the report of the Minister is satisfactory and it is not my intention to proceed further with the motion to refer back the Estimate for reconsideration.

First of all, I wish to remind the Minister that the water mains to which I referred previously are still there. Since he has transferred this responsibility to the Office of Public Works I should like him to get in touch with his pal in the Office of Public Works. We do not want the conditions in this respect to continue as they have been for the past couple of years.

A considerable amount of money has been spent over the past 12 months in repairs to our naval vessels. Would the Minister have any idea why these vessels are lying almost derelict in Haulbowline? This is the only part of our armed services which gives a direct return to the people, that is, in the protection of our fisheries. Would it be correct to state that the reason they are lying idle is the lack of engineers? Is the Minister aware that there is extreme dissatisfaction amongst naval personnel who are engineers that they are paid only the ordinary Army rate and get nothing extra for engineering services? I should like him to tell the House what number of naval engineers are leaving the Navy on account of dissatisfaction in that respect. It is my anxiety to have the matter remedied. How long have these vessels being lying there? I was there last week and I made inquiries. The reply I got was rather illuminating and I should like the Minister to investigate the matter.

I wish also to refer to the housing conditions on Spike Island. On a few occasions our housing inspector had to go over there to inspect premises which unfortunate lads in married quarters are trying to leave. They are anxious to get houses on the mainland. Our housing inspector reported that the conditions there are appalling. If the Minister is spending money in other districts on housing, I would suggest that he would have the married quarters on Spike Island and also the housing conditions in Haulbowline investigated. The Minister should provide better housing accommodation or subsidise the local housing authorities to provide houses for them on the mainland, if the houses in these places are incapable of being repaired. I think that is the condition they have got into through the negligence of the Department of Defence.

Married men in the Army are entitled at least to decent housing conditions and decent homes. If the Minister is not prepared to provide those housing facilities in Spike Island or in Haulbowline, he should subsidise the local housing authority for this purpose. We have already provided for a considerable number of such people, but there is not a week that I go into Cobh that I do not find these unfortunate fellows travelling around there in an effort to find housing accommodation. On at least four or five occasions on which our housing inspector went to Spike Island the report he gave was that these houses were unfit for human habitation. It is unfair that the whole burden of this should be thrown on the local authority. These were good houses but, due to the absolute negligence of the Department of Defence, they were allowed to go into disrepair.

That is all I wish to deal with for the moment on this Vote. I am rather alarmed at the condition of affairs with regard to the naval service, and I should like the Minister to have the situation rectified as soon as possible.

I have not had the good fortune of being presented with a copy of the Minister's opening statement so I am handicapped, when it comes to having to listen to a long harangue from the Minister in both Irish and English, in trying to pick out the important aspects of his speech and to pinpoint what should be criticised.

Let me say, first of all, that the Minister spoke here today for 35 minutes, in Irish, introducing his Estimate. I have no objection whatever to the Minister speaking in Irish in this House. Let us be clear on that. He then proceeded to give us, in English, the same rigmarole as he gave us in Irish, with some omissions. Was there any need to waste the time of the House with that type of performance? Would it not have been a more courteous attitude on the Minister's part to make a copy of his speech available to the limited number of Deputies who are interested in this debate so that there would be no need for repetition in the manner in which he repeated himself today? I can assure him that his attitude on this matter is more harmful to the Irish language than anything else.

That surely is a matter within the Minister's discretion.

I am entitled to comment on the Minister's speech, and on his conduct in this House in the course of his speech, and I hope that you, Sir, will not, in any circumstances, attempt to stifle my remarks.

I am making no attempt to stifle the Deputy's remarks. I am calling his attention to the fact that the manner in which the Minister presents his Estimate is a matter for his own discretion.

It is a matter upon which I respectfully suggest I am entitled to comment. It would have saved time, and there would have been a lot more cooperation with the Minister, if he had shown more courtesy and thoughtfulness to the House.

The Minister referred to civil defence, and he threatened a number of local authorities—"threatened" is the word I have to use—that he is likely to take serious action, in the near future, against the local authorities who have failed to carry out the directions given to them by the Minister. In fact, without giving away any secrets at this stage, the first authority in Ireland to thwart the Minister on this matter of civil defence was the Roscommon County Council.

The fraud that is being perpetrated on them in the name of civil defence should be clearly brought home to the public. If the Minister is serious about civil defence, why is it that there is a reduction of £10,000 in the Estimate for Civil Defence? At the same time, why is it that there is an increase of over £700,000 in the Estimate for the Army? The Minister shows a lack of interest in civil defence by reducing the Estimate and, at the same time, increasing the Army Estimate, and what he is really doing is saddling the local authorities with the cost of civil defence and allowing the taxpayers' money to be used for luxury purposes within the regular Army itself.

There is no good in the Minister coming here and telling us that he is seriously considering what action he will take against the local authorities in this matter. He has power to suspend a local authority, I presume, for failing to carry out what he describes as its statutory duty. I here and now challenge the Minister to suspend any local authority in this country.

It is not worth while now. Their term is nearly up.

That is a fair challenge, and there was never a more glorious opportunity of testing it than there will be between 23rd and 27th June next. At a time when the people of this country are entitled to expect some reduction in Government expenditure, we find in the Estimate for Defence over the past two years, that there was an increase of over £1 million in spending by the Department of Defence—an increase of almost £1 million because of the danger of war. I know of nothing more outrageous at the moment than to ask the people to give more of their hard-earned money for some nebulous purpose, for the purchase, shall we say, of defence equipment which, in the light of modern developments, can be described only as belonging to the Stone Age. That equipment is out-of-date before it even reaches our shores.

The people's money is being spent in that fashion. It is nearly time we were afforded an opportunity of reexamining the whole question of our Defence Forces. I tried last year, and the year before, to have a special commission of this House set up to examine into expenditure on Defence in the light of modern development in various fields. That suggestion of mine was rejected with contempt by the Government.

The people who decide the over-all policy of Defence should not be the brass-hats; they should be the Government of this State. We know what happened—this is no comparison perhaps —when the brass-hats in Germany and other countries were able to over-rule the civilians in the matter of expenditure. We have seen the results when planning has been left in the hands of these people.

As I say, there is an increase of almost £750,000 in this Estimate over last year's Estimate. There is an increase in the number of officers and a decrease in the number of privates. The Minister said, in his opening remarks, that the limited number of personnel available are fully taxed in the carrying out of their duties, whether for F.C.A. purposes or duty purposes within the Army barracks, and so forth. Let me say that the ordinary private soldier, at the present time, is carrying a very heavy burden in the line of duty. There are not sufficient private soldiers at the moment to carry out the duties imposed upon them. It has now got to the stage that a large percentage of the private soldiers are fully occupied as servants of the officer personnel and their wives.

I have had a number of complaints over the past 12 months by private soldiers and their relations in connection with their duties. I have sought, through a question in this House, to have made available to every private soldier what his duties really are in so far as the position of batman is concerned. Surely a soldier is entitled to know, when given an order to take up duty as a batman to a particular officer, what his duties are, or will it be suggested that once he joins the Army he must carry out every order given to him by his superior officer? We shall have to change that outlook and have a new look in the Army if we are to make it a happy one and keep up the morale which the Minister spoke about today.

I shall make a suggestion to the Minister in that regard. We should look upon the N.C.O. and the private soldier as a citizen in uniform who is the social equal of his military superiors. In a matter of military discipline, he must accept the orders of his superior officers. We are a small nation with a proud record of military prowess. There should not be that distinction which obtains today between the officer personnel and the N.C.O. and the private ranks.

The system we have adopted is based on both the British and the old Prussian systems—class distinction of the worst type, mixing up the functions of the soldier and his position as a normal individual. Once he is a soldier in our Army, he is segregated, for social purposes, from his military superior officers. Why should that be? Recently, I have been reading about the new German Army. The development there is most enlightened and one which we could well emulate.

The old Prussian idea that the N.C.O. and the private soldier was not on the same basis, socially, as his military superiors has gone by the board. Instead, the Private and the N.C.O., when off duty, is the equal of the officer personnel. He mixes in social events and in private life with his superior officers. It has not been found that there is any reduction in efficiency or in discipline.

A further innovation which should be noted is the appointment of a Public Relations Officer or an Ombudsman as they have in Sweden. He acts as a medium for the private soldier, N.C.O. and junior officer. He acts as a direct link between the German Parliament and the Forces, so far as grievances in the lower ranks are concerned. At present, in the Irish Army, if a soldier or an N.C.O. feels he has a genuine grievance he must go right up the steps of the ladder to the top, inside the Army. He is not entitled to come to any Deputy in this House to make a complaint. He can be disciplined for so doing. Is that not an outrageous situation?

Do we not realise that the grievance the soldier is suffering from is the result of action by his superior officer through whose hands the very source of the grievance must pass? Is that an incentive to an unfortunate man with a grievance to try to have it remedied? Is there a real opportunity for him, under those circumstances, to make his case known at the very top? Of course, there is not. Of course, he is blocked all along the line.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Defence is supposed to be that man. That is what he is.

He is supposed to be?

That is his duty.

Officially?

That is something I never knew.

Then it is time the Deputy knew it.

I never knew the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Defence was there in the capacity of a Public Relations Officer to listen to grievances and try to solve the difficulties of the private soldier, N.C.O. and junior officer.

If the Minister refuses to bring the matter to the Government the Parliamentary Secretary must do so.

And he listens, too.

I understand that Deputy Ó Briain is Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Defence. I should like if, in the course of this debate, he would tell the House, the public and the members of the Defence Forces that his duty now is and has been to deal with grievances of Army personnel.

Nobody ever availed of it.

It is scandalous that it was never made known to the soldiers that they could have direct contact with the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Defence, outline their grievances and, if genuine, have them remedied. That is news.

Did the Deputy ever try it?

I hope the Minister will give consideration to that matter. Before this debate, I was of two minds about dealing in detail with a number of grievances which were made known to me by private soldiers. I do not intend to use this debate for that purpose. Instead, I offer that suggestion. At times it is heartbreaking to Army personnel when they know they have no genuine way of making their grievances known. It will not harm discipline. I think it will improve the morale all round. It will make what one might describe as "those cranky individuals in high places" be far more careful in future about infringing on the rights of their juniors in rank in the Forces. I hope the matter will receive serious consideration. From now on, I shall have Questions on the Order Paper to keep reminding the Minister about it.

I understand that under Subhead O., there is provision for the expenditure of £147,000 for the purchase of more training aircraft. I thought all this thing was finished with. A few years ago, this Department was responsible for saddling the public with an expenditure of almost £1,000,000 on the purchase of jet aeroplanes and the construction of a runway to carry those jet planes. The runway cost £600,000 and the equipment, spare parts and everything connected with the three jet planes concerned brought the remainder up to almost £2,000,000. At the time I discovered it was the intention of the Department to purchase a full squadron, namely, six more jet planes. I am very glad that, when I found out the position and had it aired in this House, the matter of the purchase of these six extra planes was dropped like a hot brick.

Now we find here again that the matter is being resurrected. The country is being asked to buy three more planes at a cost of £147,000. I would ask Deputy Geoghegan, who is supporting this purchase of jet planes, in his capacity as a Deputy for west Galway, to get the Government to consider which is the more prudent——

A helicopter.

——a helicopter or a number of helicopters or a few more jet planes for personnel at Baldonnel to play about with. I want Deputy Geoghegan to get up when I am finished——

When will that be?

——and tell the House if he intends to support the purchase of three more jet planes at this stage when the Government have told us time and again that they could not afford to purchase helicopters for the rescue of human beings and for ambulance services from our islands to the mainland. I am afraid it shows how little influence the ordinary back bencher has in the Fianna Fáil Party. He is like the well-trained circus pony. When the Whip is on him, he goes into the ring and votes whatever way he is told but I think the people in the country are beginning to realise it is time that the representatives——

The Deputy is talking nonsense as usual.

——instead of all the time obeying the Party Whip, should, for a change, obey the directions of their constituents. I hope I am not disturbing the assistant Whip.

If the Deputy talks a bit of common sense, he will not disturb anyone.

I am protected as far as interruptions are concerned but I want to suggest that one of the reasons Deputy Loughman was appointed a Whip was to keep him out of the House. Surely he should be about his business in that connection?

We must appoint the Deputy a Whip, so.

I am surprised at the former Minister for Defence accepting so calmly, on behalf of his Party, that it is necessary to purchase these three planes before we meet what should be the priority need, namely, the purchase of helicopters. I take it that is the official policy of the chief Opposition Party. Their official line is that they support the expenditure of £1,000,000 on a jet runway in Baldonnel and on the purchase of these jet planes for training.

Let me deal with the argument put forward here—it was put forward before—that the reason for the purchase of these planes is to enable us to train a number of pilots so that Aer Lingus will avail of their services. It is very desirable that we should have Irishmen as pilots for Aer Lingus. Is it suggested, however, that it is necessary to spend £1,000,000, capital investment, you might say, in order to train a number of pilots so that they can at a later stage become employed by Aer Lingus?

Suppose for a moment we said that on this basis it is costing in the region of, perhaps, £20,000 to train one of these pilots and that we could get an Irish pilot equally well trained and, perhaps, with greater experience if we were prepared to spend a few thousand pounds on his training in Britain, America or elsewhere, what is wrong with that? Is it not a fact that at the present moment it is highly desirable that pilots should have the widest possible experience on all types of modern aircraft? Surely, it is not suggested that it is necessary for Aer Lingus pilots to be trained in Baldonnel and that, because of the training in Baldonnel, the best possible Irish pilots are available?

I think it is a disgraceful subterfuge to pretend it is necessary, in order to get pilots for Aer Lingus, to spend £1,000,000 on jet aeroplanes. I do not for one moment believe that the majority of the Opposition realise what is going on at this minute. The Government could only afford a shilling increase to the old age pensioners last week. That may sound very funny to Deputy Loughman.

The Deputy should cease talking about that. We are sick of it.

Of course, the Deputy is sick of it. As far as the country is concerned, the people will be very sick of Deputy Loughman and others, if this wasteful and disgraceful expenditure on jet aeroplanes is allowed to proceed. There would be no criticism whatever by the general public of an expenditure on the purchase of helicopters.

It was sought, I think, by Deputies on all sides of this House that we purchase at least four helicopters at a cost ranging from £30,000 to £40,000 each. Perhaps, the over-all expense of having four helicopters fully equipped with spare parts and so forth might run into £200,000. I think it would be money far better spent than spending £147,000 on aircraft, an additional £96,000 on defensive equipment and an additional £22,000 on general stores —for what purpose? For an Army equipped to defend us against what and against whom?

I have always stated that it should not be the duty of each Deputy to put forward his ideas in regard to what our Defence Forces should be, but I believe that there should be a special committee of the House set up to examine into the whole position and that that committee should have the advice and assistance of our leading military experts, so that, between the civilian and the military representatives, we could arrive at a sensible arrangement which would be supported by the country and which would not cost what it is costing us today, nearly £7,000,000. I appeal again for the setting up of such a committee instead of going on year after year with this expenditure. Deputy MacEoin stated here today that he did not understand why these figures were given about the number of soldiers and officers year after year when we know they are only on paper. What is the idea of this paper Army being produced in this House? Whom is it supposed to fool and what is the purpose behind it?

I had not got an opportunity of studying this Estimate in a very detailed way. I see under Subhead C that there is an increase in the number of civilian employees, tradesmen and helpers, employed by the Army. I wonder would the Minister let us know what is the cause of the increase because it is rather unusual to find that in a year when the number of people in building construction and so forth in the country as a whole have decreased by thousands the numbers in the Army in similar occupations have increased.

The position about the corvettes has been queried. It will be of great importance in the near future to ensure that our fishing rights are preserved, that we will cut down poaching by foreign trawlers to the minimum, and at the same time, expand our fishing fleet. That, however, is a matter for another Estimate. In view of the great likelihood that agreement will be reached on extending the fishing limits of our territorial waters, we should be making provision here for safeguarding our fishing rights within those limits. I have no doubt whatsoever that the boats, with their equipment and so forth, which are available at the moment, are not at all capable of fulfilling that important task. Again, it would be more desirable, if there is money to be spent, that we should concentrate on expenditure on that field. That would be much more desirable.

The question of cadets was mentioned, and I heard for the first time that four cadetships have been reserved for young men with some experience of horses. I should like a little more information on the reserving of these four cadetships because, to my mind, it looks very much as if these cadetships will be reserved for a very limited section of the community. I may be wrong, but, to my knowledge at any rate, the hunting section of our community is rather a wealthy one. The numbers in that section are limited, and it would seem to me that it is from that element of the community it is expected these cadets with equestrian experience will be selected. I think that is restricting the rights of the community. I do not think that the Government are entitled to make reservations of that nature. If there is a question of men coming in as cadets, and we hope to turn out a first-class team for international events, every youngster who goes for a cadetship should have an equal opportunity.

The fact that one man's son, through wealth, has an opportunity of being more skilled in horsemanship, should not mean that he will have a greater opportunity of becoming a cadet. It is all very well to say that a farmer's son in the country will have an opportunity to become a cadet. It is not quite fair to suggest that, because the majority of the farmers' sons I know have very little experience in that field. Very few of them can afford to appear at the various hunt meetings to which Deputy MacEoin referred. Most of them I have seen at these hunt meetings have been there as onlookers more than as participants. They generally follow up the gentry on horses. I do not know whether it is suggested that it is this element of the gentry who are to get the opportunity of special privileges reserved to them in the form of four cadetships. That is what it looks like to me, and I hope that it will be clarified before the debate finishes.

In conclusion, it is only fair to say that I believe that if the Minister were serious about curtailing Defence expenditure, he could, without doing any hardship whatever, save one million pounds after a 24-hours examination. That would be a very important saving and it would set a very good example for the rest of his colleagues. Having made that saving, the next action is for the Taoiseach and the Cabinet to consider, in the light of modern development and in the light of present day circumstances, the necessity of having a Minister for Defence at all. It is quite a reasonable suggestion that the Departments of Justice and Defence should be under the one Minister and that a Parliamentary Secretary could handle one or other of the Departments under that Minister. We would have a further saving there. I know that the Taoiseach wishes to reduce the number of Cabinet posts if the opportunity arises and I can sympathise with him in his present difficulty in doing so. I think that the question of friendships or of hurting people's feelings should not enter into this important problem.

The time has come when a committee of the House should be set up to examine the whole problem of defence expenditure. There is no use in the Minister or the Opposition telling me that defence is a problem for the Army authorities and the Government alone. It is a problem for the people of the country as a whole, and a problem in which at least they should be consulted in the sense that this House, which is the governing body of the State, should have an opportunity of deciding what the policy should be, taking all the advice available to it into consideration. Then we would have a far more satisfied public opinion than we have at present.

There is no end to the number of points which I could raise on this Estimate, particularly in regard to the sheer waste of money at present. As I say, there is a reduction in the number of troops and an increase of £1,400 for petrol and oils in this year's Estimate. When the people in the country see lorry after lorry rolling along the main roads, with perhaps two or three individuals in each, they are amazed. They feel that a lot of money is being wasted, money we can ill afford and money which should be put to some useful purpose.

All these matters should be discussed by a committee, in addition to broader aspects. I do not like to appeal but I shall appeal to the Government again to set up such a committee—and I can assure them they will have the goodwill of the community—rather than have this annual, shall we say, dispute on the question of expenditure on our Defence Forces.

I should like to express my humble appreciation of those workers who give their time for their training in Civil Defence. I think that young men and women who come out and give their time to this work are to be appreciated by all. We also have the co-operation of the other voluntary bodies who have come forward and we should appreciate that also. There is not sufficient appreciation in this country of what the situation would be if we were not properly equipped to deal with a situation we have not experienced up to now. We can learn a lot from what has happened elsewhere. I am referring to the question of atomic fall-out.

At this stage it is natural that one should want to know who is the leader of Civil Defence. Is that leadership in the hands of a civil servant? I am not questioning the civil servant by any means but an Army is entitled to its Chief of Staff, someone to whom it can look for leadership. I think we have plenty of men suitable as leaders, people who could be looked-to. When I say looked-to, I am thinking that a civil servant cannot show his hand. When any decision arises, he will refer it to a Minister. He may be better than any man I suggest but it is not to a mystic that we should have to look in time of need.

I want to refer to the possible use of the military in co-operation with the Garda on the occasion of, say, a big influx into towns outside Dublin. We often have a great influx of traffic in certain areas and I think the military police or certain Army personnel— they would be required very often— could play a great part in helping to cope with such a situation.

Like other members, I notice an increase for the provision of aircraft. I hold the same view as one of the other speakers on the provision of a helicopter. I did not wait until today: I mentioned this here six years ago. I have heard it raised several times since then and I think we do not sufficiently realise the possible uses to which such a craft could be put. Before the year is out, we may have as we have had in the past, grave need for such an aircraft, and I think the Minister should give a lead at some time in taking steps to provide it.

I should like to mention the grave dissatisfaction there is in regard to promotion in the Army. I have been given two instances, and not by the personnel themselves but by their inlaws—the personnel themselves were not prepared to come forward and give the information. That was in regard to the ranks at Dún Uí Mhaoilíosa, Renmore Barracks, Galway. I think the Minister should see that fair play is given to men who have given their time in the Army and he should look into the grievances that prevail. It is not in the interests of the Army, and you cannot hope to have recruits, if such a situation is allowed to obtain.

I am glad to note the increase in the provision of horses for the Army but I note a reduction for veterinary attendance from £30 to £5. I wonder how that comes about. Have we our own veterinary service in the Army that allows us to make that saving? I do not think we should cheesepare when it is a question of a good type of horse. Our Army Jumping Team has been one of our best ambassadors in the past. It has drawn the attention of the world to the fact that this country has something to offer or, rather, that we exist.

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the question of intrusion by certain members of the R.U.C. across our Border. That may be a delicate matter but I think I would view an R.U.C. man with greater disfavour than an I.R.A. man. I think the R.U.C. have no love for this part of the country. They cross our Border continuously—I have that on good authority.

Has the Minister any responsibility for this?

If he has his Army there, I think the Army should take the responsibility.

I mentioned this before and I should like to mention it again—the provision of some form of recognition for the old Connaught Rangers. Some of them are actually crippled at present——

That would relevantly arise on the following Estimate. It is out of order on this vote.

I do not like to rise again on that but I hope the Minister will consider a form of medal or——

The Deputy may have to go home a bit later.

In Galway, we need houses fit for heroes to live in. If the Army are heroes, I think the Minister should direct his attention to the needs of Army personnel in Galway. Galway Corporation is being sorely pressed to provide for the people as a whole. The Department should play its part in providing houses for the increased personnel in Galway. The Minister and his Department will have to take some steps to meet the situation there and, when he comes to reply, I should like him to give us some information as to what steps he proposes to take. Unless people are satisfied in regard to promotion and housing they will not be encouraged to enlist.

As far as I understand the position, 60 per cent. of the increase in this Vote—£400,000—has been mentioned as earmarked for pay. No one suggests that the Army should not be paid, but we would like to pinpoint the cause for the increase. It turns on the famous Budget under which the subsidies were withdrawn.

With regard to our Jumping Team, my advice is: "Get the best." We have it in the country. We have the men and we have the horses. I do not care whether a man is a member of the finest hunt in the country or someone trucking a donkey out in the wilds of Connemara, drawing turf, so long as he brings honour to our country, he should be welcome. The Vote has increased from the point of view of the purchase of horses. I know quite a bit about horses. I believe that horse and rider should, as it were, grow together in their training and become one unit, understanding one another fully. I hope that by taking all the steps necessary we shall have honour brought to our country once again.

Seán Mac Eochagáin

Ar an gcéad dul síos ba mhaith liom comhgáirdeas a dhéanamh leis an Aire as an Meastachán seo a thabhairt isteach i nGaeilge. Tá brón orm gur cháin An Teachta Mac Cuilinn an tAire cé gur imBéarla a labhair sé féin. D'fhoghlaim mise Gaeilge nuair a bhíos ag dul ar scoil. Fear óg é an Teachta Mac Cuilinn—sílim go bhfuil sé níos óige ná mé féin—agus táim cinnte gur fhoghlaim sé an teanga comh maith. Is mór an náire, mar sin, an méid a dúirt sé ina thaobh sin.

Maidir le cúrsaí traenála is é mo thuairim nach ceart na cursaí sin don Ghaeltacht a chur ar siúl i gCampa Fionnabhair. Ba cheart iad a bheith i gConamara.

An é an Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil atá i gceist agat?

Seán Mac Eochagáin

Sea. Comh maith leis sin, ba cheart pá breise a íoc leis an gCéad Chath ós rud é go bhfuil siad sa Ghaeltacht, sa tslí cheanna agus a íoctar é le comhaltaí an Gharda Síochána.

Ba chóir níos mó tithe a chur ar fáil do shaighdiúirí pósta agus seomraí codlata singil a sholáthar do mhuintir an Airm. Ní ceart ó dheichnúir go scór saighdiúir a bheith in aon seomra amháin mar gheall ar an dochar a d'fhéadfadh sé a dhéanamh don tsláinte.

Ba mhaith liom arís moladh a thabhairt don Aire de bhárr an bheartais atá aige i dtaobh na Gaeilge san Arm, agus tá súil agam go gclaoifidh sé leis an mbeartas sin.

The Vote for the Department of Defence is one in which we all have a certain interest for different reasons. Some of us possibly imagine we know a great deal about it and probably that is the reason we take an interest in it. We know something, I suppose, and we learn more by taking an even greater interest. My interest is akin to that of many people who make a hobby of reading about defence, studying defence, and so on. I think I can claim to be a very keen student of military history. That helps one to take a general interest in the subject. In fact, without a keen interest in and some knowledge of military history, it is difficult for people to know what they are talking about. One may talk about the details of the account, but there are other features apart from mere accounting details. There is the question of the policy and the purpose of the Department itself. In order to express an opinion on that subject one has to have a knowledge of the subject itself.

We are told the Vote for the Department of Defence is up by approximately £742,661 on last year. Naturally people are anxious to know why we need to spend so much money on Defence. Most people are cynical; even people here are cynical. They ask: "What can we do? We are throwing money down the drain." Any responsible person must admit, however, that, whether or not it appears as if we are throwing money down the drain, a defence policy is something we have to have. Just as in the case of the Garda, there may be no offence against the civil authority but one never knows when there will be. A definite policy will guarantee that the Garda will be respected if the law is broken. Even if that should happen only every half century, it is justification for the existence of the Department of Defence. Apart from the larger question of outside aggression, there is always the question of the need for coming to the assistance of the civil power. Except for a small number, the Guards here are not armed. It is possible that the civil population might get out of hand at some time and it would be essential to have an armed force come to the Guards' assistance.

However, the mere possibility of civil disturbance is not sufficient justification for the expenditure of £7½ million. There is the larger issue of the danger of outside aggression. Anybody with a knowledge of history will realise that from time to time every country is engaged in war or involved in some way. It is only common sense that the existence of a defence system might deter a potential aggressor from invasion. I do not say it will prevent aggression but the aggressor, in making his calculations, will take into account whether there is a Defence Force or not.

At one time the Romans bragged that they could take over this country with one battalion. They were in England at the time and somebody said they were afraid of invading Ireland. They regarded that as a big joke and said they would send a battalion to take it. It might happen that other countries could think likewise and decide as part of their operations to take over the country. But if they knew we had a fairly good defensive system and that a substantial part of their forces would be required for the operation, they might calculate that the loss of that force would constitute a danger to their main objective.

However, we must decide what our actual defensive policy will be, and we are entitled to express an opinion on whether or not we are faced with such dangers as to warrant the expenditure of approximately £7½ million every year. We know that periodically there are great wars in Europe. We can remember that there was one not many years ago and, a generation before that again, there was another. We had other small wars: the Boer War, the Franco-Prussian War, Napoleon's Wars, the Seven Years' War, and so on down history. Common sense tells us that there will always be wars.

It is silly to say that nuclear weapons will end war. They will do no such thing. There will be an agreement not to use certain weapons of overwhelming destructive power, but more conventional type weapons, even atomic ones, will be used, and these will be far more devastating than the weapons used in the last war. You might as well say there will be no more politics in this country and that Fine Gael will be satisfied to let Fianna Fáil stay where they are. But they will not. It is the same in international affairs. The League of Nations and all that kind of thing is only the preliminary to the real thing.

The fact remains that there will always be wars and we have to decide to what extent we shall be involved. Any student of military affairs knows the existing trends and, basing his knowledge on those, knows what is likely to happen. Commonsense tells us that the next trouble on the Continent will be between Russia and the other Powers. Inevitably we would be concerned in that. If such a struggle occurred there is every possibility that Russia could over-run the entire Continent much more easily than the Germans over-ran it in the last war. If that happens it will mean that the Russians will not be very far from this country. If modern weapons are used, even apart from the more devastating kind, England may have to be evacuated and taken over by the Russians. The question is: what could we do about it? Not a lot.

However, there are other dangers involved. If such an event should happen I believe there would be an overwhelming rush back to this country of our emigrants from England. That is where the need for an armed force to support the civil authorities would be felt. If the British Government decide to leave their island and go to Canada, we would also have a problem in regard to the North. It might be necessary for us, in the interests of national unity, to go up there and prevent some junta from taking over. These are the trends with which I am concerned, not how many pilots we have, how many guns we have or how many rounds of .303 ammunition we have.

Last year, on the Vote on Account, I expressed my opinions about our system of defence. I said it appeared to be conventional: if someone attacks you, you just dig in and defend yourself. If that is the way our defence is organised, you might as well throw that £7½ million down the drain. With a defence of that nature facing an aggressor equipped with superior weapons, we would be overwhelmed in hours, not to mention days. If we are to get value for this money we should organise our defence in such a way that we would at least be able to give a good account of ourselves and not, as happened in certain other countries which spent huge sums on defence, flop in half an hour or so. I believe we should forget conventional systems of defence and organise a system of guerilla defence.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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