Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 May 1960

Vol. 181 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 52—Army Pensions.

Aire Cosanta (Caoimhghín Ó Beoláin)

Tairgim:—

"Go ndeonófar suim nach mó na £1,145,090 chun slánaithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1961, le haghaidh Pinsin Chréachta agus Mhíchumais, Pinsin Bhreise agus Pinsin Fear Pósta, Liúntais agus Aiscí (Uimh. 26 de 1923, Uimh. 12 de 1927, Uimh. 24 de 1932, Uimh. 15 de 1937, Uimh. 2 de 1941, Uimh. 14 de 1943, Uimh. 3 de 1946, agus Uimh. 19 agus 28 de 1949, Uimh. 23 de 1953, Uimh. 19 de 1957 agus Uimh. 15 de 1959, etc.) Pinsin, Liúntais agus Aiscí Seirbhíse Míleata (Uimh. 48 de 1924, Uimh. 26 de 1932, Uimh. 43 de 1934, Uimh. 33 de 1938, Uimh. 5 de 1944, Uimh. 11 agus 34 de 1945, Uimh. 7 agus 29 de 1949, Uimh. 5 de 1953 agus Uimh. 12 de 1957, etc.); Pinsin, Liúntais agus Aiscí (Uimh. 37 de 1936: Uimh. 9 de 1948; Uimh. 30 de 1950; Uimh. 27 de 1952, Uimh. 4 de 1953 agus Uimh. 17 de 1957, etc.); íochaíochtaí i leith Cúitimh do Chomhaltaí den Fhórsa Cosanta Áitiúil (Uimh. 19 de 1946, agus Uimh. 15 de 1949); agus le haghaidh Ranníoca agus Costais iolartha ina dtaobh sin, etc.

£1,717,630 méid iomlán an mheastacháin seo, is é sin, £40,080 níos mó ná an chéad Vóta don, bhliain airgeadais 1959/60. Chun críocha na méaduithe a deonadh le Cáinaisnéis na bliana 1959, áfach, tharla i rith na bliana airgeadais 1959/60, gur aistríodh £34,050 ón Vóta le haghaidh Méaduithe ar Phinsin agus gur aistríodh £137 ar an gcuma chéanna ón Vóta le haghaidh Luach Saothair chun na méaduithe pá a ghlanadh agus fágann sin gurbh é £5,893 glan-mhéid na breise ar a soláthraíodh don bhliain 1959/60.

Ós rud é nach bhfuil ann ach tamall gairid ó bhí roinnt Billí i dtaobh pinsean os comhair an Tí, sílim nach gá ráiteas fada a dhéanamh agus an Meastachán seo á thabhairt isteach agam. Mar a fheicfidh Teachtaí, leantar den rud dá ndearna mé tagairt an bhliain seo caite agus a chuir mé síos d'imeacht na haimsire. Tá laghduithe ar Fho-Mhírcheann C—Pinsin Chréachta agus Mhíchumais agus Aiscí, etc.; ar Fho-Mhircheann D— Liúntais agus aiscí do Chleithiúnaithe, etc.; ar Fho-Mhírcheann G—Pinsin Sheirbhíse Míleata agus cuid de na fo-mhírchinn eile. Tá méadú ar Fho-Mhírcheann H — Scéimeanna na bhFórsaí Cosanta (Pinsin), 1937-1959; ar Fho-Mhírcheann, O — Liúntais Speisialta agus, ina theannta sin, ar chuid eile de na fo-mhírchinn bheaga eile.

Beidh áthas orm, ar ndóigh, aon eolas eile is gá a thabhairt, le linn dom an díospóireacht a fhreagairt.

The Estimate is for a sum of £1,717,630, which represents an increase of £40,080 over the original Vote for the financial year 1959/60. For the purposes of the 1959 Budgetary increases, however, a sum of £34,050 was, during the financial year 1959/60, transferred from the Vote for Increases in Pensions, and a sum of £137 was likewise transferred from the Vote for Remuneration in order to cover pay increases, so that the nett increase over the provision for 1959/60 is £5,893.

As it is only recently that a number of legislative measures relating to pensions was before the House and as the increases provided for in the recent Budget will necessitate similar legislation in due course, I feel that it is unnecessary for me to make a long statement in introducing this Estimate. As Deputies will see, the trend to which I referred last year as attributable to the passage of time continues. There are reductions in Subheads C—Wound and Disability Pensions and Gratuities, etc.; Subhead D—Allowances and Gratuities to Dependants, etc.; Subhead G—Military Service Pensions and some of the other subheads. Subhead H—Defence Forces (Pensions) Schemes, 1937-1959; Subhead O—Special Allowances and, as well, a few other smaller subheads show increases.

I shall, of course, be glad, when replying to the debate, to give any further information that may be desired.

General MacEoin

I move:—

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

I tabled this motion for the purpose of widening the scope of the debate somewhat on this Vote. As the Minister has pointed out, "Father Time" has taken a heavy toll on the lives of many of the recipients of Army pensions. Army pensions are, of course, made up of three different types. There are pensions for serving personnel since the establishment of the State, military service and disability pensions for those who served prior to the establishment of the State, for those who are known familiarly as the "Old I.R.A." and for those who served in the National Army and in the executive forces in the years 1922 and 1923. There are what one might describe as military service pensions for one section and Army pensions for another. All come under the heading now of Army Pensions and it is not, therefore, easy to disentangle the one from the other. Dealing with pensions for existing personnel——

Mr. K. Boland

We differentiate by calling them Defence Forces pensions.

General MacEoin

Very good. It is difficult to discover what are the governing principles behind those at the moment. When the scheme was drawn up the purchasing power of money was much greater than it is today. The value of money was greater. The pensions granted today, in my opinion, are quite inadequate. The chances of employment for those who serve 25 and 30 years is very slight; their earning capacity outside the Army is considerably diminished. Every Deputy is aware that those who retire from the Army on pension are very anxious to find some sort of employment when they come out. Every Deputy has, at one time or another, been approached to find them some type of job or other, here in this House, perhaps, or as porters, or something else.

It is very difficult to find these jobs for these people. We all sympathise with them because we appreciate the pensions are inadequate to maintain them in any decent sort of standard of living. The time has come, therefore, when the Minister and the Government should re-examine the whole problem, keeping in mind the reduced purchasing power of money to-day. They should ensure that those who have served long and faithfully in the Defence Forces will, when they come to retire on pension, find themselves in a position to maintain themselves in a reasonably decent standard of living. I do not ever want to see the day when ex-members of our Defence Forces will be looked upon as were the Old Connaught Rangers or the Munsters, for example.

The truth of the matter is that there are to-day some people, employers and others, who regard retired Army personnel as just fit for nothing except the workhouse. That is an attitude we must guard against because these men, as the Minister very properly pointed out on the main Estimate, are the guarantee and the defenders of our rights and liberties. They symbolise the sovereignty of the State. In the last analysis, if the sovereignty of the State is ever threatened, either from within or from without, these are the people who will be called upon to defend it with their lives, if necessary. In those circumstances it is imperative that, having served long and faithfully, they should be placed in a position of being able to maintain themselves in a decent standard of living for the rest of their days.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 12th May, 1960.