Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 31 May 1960

Vol. 182 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 47—Industry and Commerce (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."—(Deputy Cosgrave.)

Mr. T. Lynch

I listened with interest to the Minister's statement. He expressed great confidence and referred particularly to the live register for unemployed. I do not think it is fair for the Minister to say that because the figure on the live register is so low at present all is well with the country. We all know that but for emigration the figure of 58,000 would be 108,000. It is very hard to be happy about this Estimate. When the present Taoiseach was Minister for Industry and Commerce he stormed around the country with his promise of 100,000 new jobs. He has never made any attempt to keep this promise and during debates and Question Time has always avoided making any statement about it. It was obvious that it was simply a cheap trick. It was deceit on a large scale, deceiving unfortunate unemployed people, their wives and their families. That cannot be put on the record too often by members of the Opposition. It is something the Government Press will never publish or comment fairly upon.

The Government appear to take great pride in their industrial policy because a large number of foreigners are coming here now. For years Fianna Fáil prevented outside industrialists from coming into Ireland unless they came under the Control of Manufactures Act. Great firms of international reputation would not come here and have a couple of members on a board along with a few Irishmen who knew nothing about the business and who could outvote them at any time. That stupid policy was backed up by the cry from the platform "We will not allow anybody to come in here and exploit us." Now we realise that we would be glad to have people come in here and erect factories; we go even further and put up the money for them.

Fianna Fáil policy towards my constituency has been disgraceful. My constituency and the city from which I come have been treated as if these areas were conquered territory and the people had no right to anything. For years the people of Waterford treated any references in the papers to industries with a certain amount of contempt, and rightly so. When it was decided to put up further beet factories here, a case was made for Waterford as one of the best places geographically to erect a factory. We discovered, however, that it was not right to make a good case, that you should make a bad case and put on the "poor mouth". The factory would not be built because a good case had been made but it would be built if there was enough "pull" behind the proposition. However, they did not put it in Waterford.

Mr. Corish

Or in New Ross.

Mr. T. Lynch

I can imagine what Major-General Costello would do if he had a beet factory in Waterford and the amount of money he would earn for this country. He is now able to bring unrefined sugar into Waterford when the beet factories here are closed. He is able to unload it there, bring it to Carlow, refine it, bring it back to Waterford again and ship it out again refined. That is magnificent work. It is being shipped out to some of the greatest sugar people in the world. But how different it would be if he could take the unrefined sugar from the ship, bring it straight into the factory and then reload it on to the same ship again? I know the kind of tonnage deal Major-General Costello would make with that shipping company.

The story of Irish Cement so far as Waterford people are concerned is something that stinks. The market for cement was first investigated in the 1930s by a group of Waterford people at their own expense. An option was taken on a river side site close to limestone quarries. It had, as the saying is, road, rail and sea going into it. I saw the whole proposition set out in a beautifully bound book, a copy of which was sent to the Department of Industry and Commerce. Portland Cement were the people who were to come here, but the next thing we heard about it was that the factory was in Drogheda. That is a matter of fact. Good luck to Drogheda, but the people who introduced the project were cheated out of it. This is no laughing matter for people who actually put up their own money and did not make use of the Government's money.

There was also the question of a lace factory. The entrepreneurs were brought into Waterford in the late 1930's when the proposition was first made. There was silence and then we discovered that the lace factory was to open in Ennis. Then a legend was put out that the Waterford people would not put up any support for an industry. Yet Allied Ironfounders and Portlaw Leather were established, and in the case of Allied Ironfounders I think the capital of £100,000 or £120,000 was oversubscribed in a matter of 20 minutes. That is what happened in the place about which this miserable legend was put out.

During these years, in the 1930's, with the Economic War, the livestock trade was lost to Waterford and has never been recovered, and the great pig-buying industry in Waterford was destroyed by legislation in this House. We have bacon curers in the country at the present time and we had bacon curers then. We had four bacon curers in Waterford at that time and we now have two, and even though I often heard the sirens in those factories calling the workers back for overtime in the days before this penal legislation, in the days when we had a pig-buying industry in Waterford, we were able to ship upwards of 600,000 live pigs from Waterford that were not wanted by the Irish factories because they were too heavy. That might seem to be a matter within the scope of the Department of Agriculture but it was related to industry in Waterford. It was related to the wealth of Waterford and it was ruthlessly destroyed.

Coming on to the years after the war, there was a small battery factory at The Glen in Waterford and it just disappeared up to Dublin. H.M.V. radios, gramophones and records were going strong in Waterford but the rumour circulated that they were to come to Dublin. There was an approach made to the Minister but the Minister could do nothing about it. If it were anywhere else, it would not be allowed to move from the place, but away it went. An edible oil factory was started in the 1930's and then, after the war, we were told that McDonnell's margarine factory could not keep going in Waterford but had to move up alongside the edible oil factory. It closed down and if that happened in any other city or centre Deputies from that place would be coming in here moaning and groaning. Unfortunately the people of Waterford have a little bit of conservatism or independence and I would say it is a pity they have it.

Now we come to the chipboard factory. I know very little about this factory and about the nervousness of the people who are promoting it in Waterford. They appear to have got the disease that Waterford is a conquered city or is the same as a city of the southern States undergoing reconstruction and under martial law. They were afraid to mention this matter for over two and a half years to either myself or Deputy Kyne, who happened to be a member of the Opposition, so I can assure the Minister that he cannot hold it against these promoters, these entrepreneurs, that they had anything to do with the Opposition. There is a great deal of unemployment in Waterford because no local authority building is taking place. There are 1,200 men signing at the labour exchange in Waterford and the trade unions called a meeting last Saturday night to consider the position.

A great many people came to that meeting and said it was a pity it was called because it might embarrass the promoters. I think that is an extraordinary thing. I do not think it would embarrass the promoters for anybody to call a public meeting and ask that the industry be sent to Waterford. I am sure the Minister would take that in the spirit in which it was asked and I am sure he would not appear to be a tyrant and say: "You cannot have an industry now because you held a public meeting."

Deputy Ormonde, my colleague from Waterford, said it was ill-advised. The chairman of Waterford Harbour Commissioners said it should not have been brought about, but I consider it was the people's democratic right to ask, and it was interesting to hear what I heard at that meeting. There is a factory at Scariff in County Clare but the people who are promoting the Waterford factory say they have investigated the market and that they are not going to bother with the Clare factory's market. The whole thing boils down to the words in the Act in relation to the Government giving or not giving money to help an industry— that it should be of vital national importance. I submit to the Minister that in view of the treatment Waterford has got, it is of vital national importance and I might as well explain to him what the feeling in Waterford is about this.

The people there consider that the proposition in Waterford is so good that that is what is damning it. They consider that no stop should be put to it because the people promoting it are prepared to put £100,000 of their own money into it. At that meeting, I was surprised to hear this, and I quote Deputy Ormonde: "I understand there was a threat from the Scariff people that they would close down if there was a second factory established." I am informed that the Scariff people got £400,000 from public funds and I do not see what reason, they would have to close down if they had that money behind them and that kind of plant behind them. I think it would be good for this industry if there were two factories, from the point of view that they would have to get out and look for markets, but if this one industry is left there in Scariff, it will become one of our hothouse industries.

Another thing the Waterford people resent is this: they consider that Waterford is a better centre. It is situated near more of the forests in this country but, as I said before, whatever seems to be a good case for Waterford seems to damn Waterford.

I think the Minister should endeavour to stop some of the propaganda that seems to go on behind the Department of Industry and Commerce because it must be a source of terrible disappointment to people who sometimes build themselves up when they read the newspapers. Others say that you cannot believe anything you see in the newspapers because it is not true, but there must be a great many people who are unemployed and who must be greatly disappointed. Nearly every Sunday, in the paper supporting the Government, one reads about some new factory or industry being established. In the Irish Press of 2nd March, 1958, there was an announcement to the effect that a horsemeat factory was to be established in Limerick which would handle up to 25,000 animals every year. Those who knew realised that there were not so many horses to be bought, that the factory would not proceed. There it is with its licence from the Government to go ahead. It did not go ahead and it must have been a terrible disappointment to the local people.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister for Industry and Commerce can scarcely be held responsible for newspaper reports.

Mr. T. Lynch

There was an announcement that the Minister for Agriculture decided to grant a licence to the Limerick company.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That would be a matter for another Minister.

Mr. T. Lynch

Yes but, at the same time, we see these announcements and they always seem to have the imprimatur of a Minister.

There is another matter the Minister would have something to do with, our imports and our exports. We have an adverse balance of payments with many countries. I have put down a series of questions asking what we buy from other countries and in particular, what we buy from Soviet Russia. We buy £700,000 or £800,000 worth from them and they buy nothing from us. From Japan, we buy £2,800,000 worth and they buy £42,000 worth from us. The value of our imports from Germany is three times the value of what they buy from us.

I do not want to get into any economic war but I think it is reasonable to suggest to the Minister that an approach should be made to these countries in regard to this matter. We should start off with Germany and say: "You do buy heavy cattle from other people to whom you give a quota. You will not give us a quota. You are buying tinned meat from other people. We buy millions of pounds worth from you."

The value of our imports from the Federal Republic of Germany is £10,479,654 and of our exports to that country is £3,510,019. The reference to this is Column 937, Volume 179, No. 6, of the Official Report of 25th February, 1960. The value of our imports from Belgium is £3,940,130 as against £893,263 worth exported. The value of our imports from France is £3,480,249 as against £1,216,537; from the Nettherlands, £6,331,478 as against £1,124,787; from Italy, £1,952,383 as against £737,756; from Sweden £3,097,498 as against £966,661.

It is up to the Minister to say to these countries: "I do not want to put up the bars against your products; I do not want to put any extra tariffs on them; but, if you do not do something to redress the balance of payments, I shall have to do something about it." Let us deal with these people but let us not deal with the people from behind the Iron Curtain. We appear to be on very friendly terms with them.

The value of our imports from India is £4,800,000 and of our exports £900,000. From the U.S.S.R. we imported £362,000 worth and exported £39,000 worth. We imported £872,000 worth from Poland and they bought £292,000 worth from us. We imported £2,000 worth from Rumania. From Czechoslovakia we imported £391,000 worth and exported £193,000 worth. We imported from Eastern Germany £539,000 worth and we sold them £79,000 worth.

I respectfully submit these figures to the Minister and I suggest that they represent a very adverse balance of trade. We could do better by paying more attention to this matter.

I am informed that we buy coal and artificial manure from Poland. The Coal Board in Britain are up to their hats in coal and do not know what to do with it. Coal could be bought at the right price from Britain and a good concession could be wrung from Britain. The Government have a good deal of leeway to make up on what was lost last year when they had the Dáil in session for weeks discussing the Referendum Bill. In February, I heard the Leader of the Fine Gael Party appealing to the then Minister for Industry and Commerce to go to Britain and to come to terms with the British and not to mind going to meet the people in Paris about the Inner Six and the Outer Seven.

He appealed again in May, on the Estimate. Then we woke up when we read the papers one day and discovered that the Danes had wiped our eye and the ten per cent. that the Danes had not, the Danes had got. I often wonder how that ten per cent. concession was wrung from Great Britain. I would say that it was wrung from them on the basis of a quid pro quo that we seem to be afraid to have anything to do with. I should prefer, if I could get a preference for Irish bacon or butter or Irish cattle, to give Britain a preference for British cars. That may sound like treason but we have the imprimatur of the Taoiseach for it when he said he would “trade with Britain first,”. I have it in banner headlines; that is the way it is in the paper and that is right.

Mr. Moher

Who said: "We shall hit them in their pocket and in their pride"?

Mr. T. Lynch

Who said it?

Mr. Moher

Somebody said that.

Mr. T. Lynch

Tell me who said it? Will the Deputy please tell me who said it?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It does not arise on this Estimate.

Mr. T. Lynch

I remember its being shouted from Waterford platforms by Fianna Fáil speakers who said that they would do it and that they would hit everybody in the pocket who would not vote Fianna Fáil, if that is what the Deputy is talking about. But it is the fashionable thing now to deal with Great Britain. It took a long time to teach that to Fianna Fáil and it must have cost the nation a lot of money when one thinks of all the countries with which they messed around and all the fiddling they did to try to build up an economy. Yet they always had to come back to Britain.

I want to say a word about the British market as it is and about the sale of our products in that market. I address my remarks especially to my namesake, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, this being his first Vote. I said this on a previous occasion, a year or two ago. I was in London with some friends and we went into a publichouse, the name of which I have. One of them asked for an Irish whiskey, Gold Label, and although there were 30 or 40 barmen there they did not know what it was. They had none. We demanded to see the manager and we got him. He turned out to be a County Clare man. We asked him why he did not have Irish whiskey. He said that was a fair question but that he had a man from the Scotch distillers in every Tuesday morning and that nobody called to sell Irish whiskey.

I submit that the great thing in commerce—and the Minister is Minister for Commerce as well as for Industry— is to sell and there is no substitution for the salesman who calls to sell the goods. The Minister has an organisation and I suggest that he should ask that organisation to say to the Irish distillers: "Why should you depend on the Irish Government to promote the sale of your whiskey? Why do you not go and sell it yourselves and put your own representatives on the road, put it into the houses, on sale or return if necessary, and try it out anyway?"

I shall have the same thing to say about Irish butter when I come to the Estimate on Agriculture. I shall have to go back to the balance of payments. Other countries are a little more active than we are. I just picked this out of the paper on May 8th, 1960:

Bacon Key to Plane Exports: Britain's appetite for Polish bacon has increased our prospects of selling airliners in Eastern Europe. These will be directly affected by the Anglo-Polish trade talks which start again in London on May 16th.

Last December British and Polish negotiators were unable to agree on the terms of a new trade arrangement to replace that of 1956.

The British quota for Polish bacon was reduced under a six-month provisional agreement—and promising negotiations over something like two years for the sale of British airliners to Poland were suspended.

That is the way to talk to them.

Although the cut in the bacon quota was felt by the Poles to be a serious matter it amounted to only 1.4 per cent. of the total yearly bacon consumption in the United Kingdom.

That is something like what we send them.

Yet it almost certainly stopped the sale of six or seven Viscount aircraft to the Polish Airlines, LOT.

The aircraft industry felt that Britain's chances of gaining markets in Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and Bulgaria, too, were seriously prejudiced.

The Poles, who had been on the point of placing an order for three or four Viscounts and were thinking of ordering three more in 1961, ordered three Russian II. 18s.

That was "being on the ball" and I would commend the Minister if he went to Britain with the same ideas in his mind.

The Minister spoke about buying Irish. In the case of motor cars we cannot very well say they are an Irish product but the components are brought here from Britain, Germany and America and assembled here and it is a great industry that gives a great deal of work. In the matter of buying Irish the Minister should say to the Government that when buying cars they should at least buy cars assembled in this country. While I consider it only right that Ministers should have cars—and good cars— no car that has not been assembled here should be bought for a Minister or any Department of State. If you rightly insist on buying Irish we should see to it that all Government Departments buy Irish products when they go to market. Several Departments would need to mend their ways in that respect.

In regard to promotion of new industries the Minister said that 52 projects assisted by An Foras Tionscal were in production in the undeveloped areas and that, in addition, there were 18 other projects for which assistance had been promised and which were in varying stages of development. I should be grateful to the Minister— I would not ask him to read out a list—if he would ask some of his officials to send me a list of the 52 projects, and also a list of the projects for which assistance has been promised.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.