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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Jun 1960

Vol. 183 No. 2

Diseases of Animals Bill, 1960—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The Bill deals with two matters, firstly, the General Cattle Diseases Fund—an old Fund which we now think it is time to abolish—and secondly, the substitution for the purposes of the Bovine Tuberculosis Eradication Scheme of the word "attested" for the word "accredited", which is the term which has been in use up to the present. These two matters are not directly connected except that they both come under the Diseases of Animals Acts; since they are comparatively simple provisions, however, it was thought well to deal with them in the one Bill.

The General Cattle Diseases Fund was set up under the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act, 1878 and was continued by the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894. The purpose of the Fund was to even out the cost to local authorities of dealing with outbreaks of animal disease or, in other words, to prevent the whole cost of dealing with a local outbreak of animal disease from falling on the one local authority. The local authorities then had to deal with a number of animal diseases such as pleuro-pneumonia and cattle plague which have long since been eradicated. Nowadays, their expenditure on Diseases of Animals Acts work is in respect, firstly, of the employment of veterinary inspectors, who are mostly part-time, and, secondly, in respect of sheep dipping.

The Fund is managed by the Department of Agriculture and it is mainly made up from assessments on the rates of a halfpenny in the £1 made at the request of the Minister for Agriculture by all local authorities from time to time, on a county at large basis. Each local authority pays into the Fund on the basis of ½d. in the £1 assessment whenever made and each receives back half of its expenditure under the headings I have mentioned —salaries of veterinary inspectors and sheep dipping. The total expenditure of all local authorities on these items is now at the rate of about £50,000 per year and of this sum about £25,000 is recouped from the Fund to the local authorities, the other £25,000 being met directly from the rates. However, in the process of paying into the Fund and being recouped again from it, many local authorities in recent years get back from the Fund roughly what they pay into it. I felt, therefore, that there was not much sense in maintaining a rather elaborate system of accountancy and procedure where only a comparatively small amount of money is involved—about one-sixteenth of 1% of total local authority revenue expenditure—and the end result is much the same as if the Fund was never there. I would like to stress that the abolition of the Fund will involve no extra cost to local authorities as a whole, but to some individual authorities the cost will be a little more and to others a little less than at present. In no case will it exceed a ld. in the £ and in all but two it will be considerably less than ½d.

The Fund also receives additional revenue from two other sources, namely an insignificant sum from the proceeds of fines imposed for offences against the Diseases of Animals Acts, together with as annual contribution from the Exchequer in respect of compensation for animals slaughtered under the Bovine Tuberculosis Order, 1926, which the local authorities operate.

I should make it clear at this point that this Order covers animals suffering from certain types of clinical tuberculosis and has no connection with the general Scheme for the Eredication of Bovine Tuberculosis. In fact, as eradication under that scheme progresses, the calls on the local authorities for compensation under the 1926 Order will gradually diminish and will ultimately disappear altogether. In the current financial year, expenditure under the Order from the Exchequer is estimated at £37,000 and a further contribution of £2,000, approximately, will be made from the Fund. When the Fund disappears, all expenditure then to be met under the Order will be paid directly from the Exchequer.

The Bill makes provision for keeping the Fund open until 31st March, 1963 and for replenishing it in the meantime to pay outstanding claims. At the present time the Fund is in debt, as there are arrears to be met, but present indications are that about four assessments of one halfpenny in the £ each would be sufficient to pay outstanding demands on the Fund and to keep it going until it is wound up. The Bill provides for total assessments amounting to a maximum of 4d. in the £, altogether, so as to meet any unforeseen contingencies, but the total assessments to be made up to the 31st March, 1963, should not exceed 2d. unless some very exceptional situation arises. With regard to Section 3 of the Bill providing for disposal of any balance in the Fund at 31st March, 1963, I do not think any significant amount is likely to be left in the Fund by that time as assessments will be made only as needed.

As regards the Diseases of Animals (Bovine Tuberculosis) Act, 1957, the amendment proposed is a very simple one providing merely for the alteration of the word "accredited", which appears in the 1957 Act, to the word "attested". I have had strong representations both from farmers' representatives and trade interests that describing Irish cattle as "accredited" instead of "attested" would have an adverse effect on their sale in Britain since British buyers may harbour the suspicion that the difference in nomenclature connotes some difference also in status. In view, therefore, of the representations I have received and because of the necessity to ensure that no obstacle is placed in the way of our cattle export trade, I thought it well that the same description should apply to our attested cattle as to similar cattle in Britain.

I commend the Bill to the House.

As far as I can make out from what the Minister says, the Bill is not, in so far as it applies to the Diseases of Animals Act, going to make any very remarkable change at all; and it occurs to me to wonder why he brought it in at all. The general Cattle Diseases Fund, which has existed since 1878, provided a source from which certain protective payments could be made where it became necessary to slaughter livestock in order to prevent the spread of disease. I suppose it is a somewhat analogous situation that theoretically, which has been true up to now, even so grave a disease as foot and mouth disease was the responsibility of the local authority of the county where the outbreak took place. In fact, with the outbreak of any serious pandemic disease of that kind, the Department of Agriculture took over.

If the Minister certifies to the House that the new departure represents some administrative economy or will work better than the existing system, I certainly would not recommend to the House to refuse him the provisions of the Bill. The original design was to provide that if there were a severe outbreak of disease in one particular county and that the other 31 counties which then constituted the State had no disease to meet, the charge would be spread out over the whole country. I gather from what the Minister says now that the charge will be made an Exchequer charge?

Yes, in respect of the 1926 Bovine Tuberculosis Order.

What is going to happen in respect of any other disease?

We have taken responsibility long ago for swine fever, foot and mouth and all these other diseases.

And this simply brings the residue of the clinical T.B. situation——

Into our responsibility entirely.

And wipes out the last vestiges of the old responsibility of the local authority?

In that respect.

I do not quarrel with that arrangement if the Minister says it is a more convenient one, but I avail of this occasion to say that since it has now become the responsibility of the Minister for Agriculture in effect to carry the farmers' insurance against foot and mouth disease, swine fever and clinical tuberculosis, as distinguished from tuberculosis defined for the purpose of the T.B. Eradication Scheme, I think he ought seriously to consider including hereafter the matter I mentioned to him today as another hazard to which the livestock industry is susceptible.

I avail of this occasion to press on him a view with which I cannot but think he must have sympathy. I agree with him that the incidence of death from lightning among livestock is very small, looked at on the administrative scale, but there is no livestock catastrophe which can hit an individual farmer more disastrously. It may be a very little thing if I have it to tell that in one administrative county only ten cattle were killed in the past 12 months by lightning, but if I go on to say that those ten cattle were all killed on one man's land, then what seems a trivial thing, looked at from the point of view of the administrative county, means the difference between survival and virtual destitution for one individual.

I think it is a sound practice in this day and age when we are introducing Bills to spread the cost of social services over the whole community, the cost of contributory pensions and the cost of voluntary health insurance, that we should spread the cost of protecting an individual from acts of God of that kind, which may mean utter ruin for their families if there is no source to which they can turn for protection.

It might be argued that every man ought to insure against lightning. I suppose some logical argument could be made for that claim. Knowing our neighbours as we do, we know that people do not insure against lightning. The truth is that 999 out of every 1,000 farmers never had a beast killed by lightning. Nevertheless, we should not close our eyes to the fact that where it does eventuate, it can cause complete disaster. I would urge the Minister to prepare a schedule of the contingencies against which the Exchequer will stand ready to indemnify farmers and stipulate foot and mouth disease and swine fever. He should add to that death by lightning.

I should like some further explanation, however, of the new situation. Under the old Diseases of Animals Act and its machinery, the diseases provided against were scheduled. What is the Minister to do thereafter? Is he going to issue a new schedule of diseases in respect of which he is prepared to pay compensation? If he is going to accept that wide charge on the Exchequer, he is going to find himself, in my judgment, deprived of a very substantial present protection from extravagant proposals.

We might as well face this fact. Professional men can get the strangest complexes. If you listen to all the doctors told you, we would all get into glass cases and end up by living on sterilised food on the ground that there were so many germs and diseases and threats to our health knocking about that nobody ought to start out of their strictly aseptic surroundings. We are now threatened with fluoridation of the water. We are warned not to smoke. We are warned not to eat. We are told we ought to keep thin and if we are thin, we are told to get fat and if we are fat, we are told to get thin. It becomes a kind of obsession.

I often listen to Deputy Dr. Browne with some amusement because he particularly typifies that point of view, that everybody ought to be in a cradle and his life indefinitely extended without any regard to how he lives his life at all. Now against that kind of extravagance you have the instinctive rebellion of reasonable men who eventually turn to the doctors and say: "Go to blazes. Our sole purpose in life is not to survive. We want to live as well as survive" but the same kind of daft extremism is beginning to manifest itself in the veterinary profession.

We now have so many drugs, remedies and threats to animal health that farming is becoming more and more complex and in a considerable degree more complex than it need be. I venture to make this prophecy. We have all bought, in Great Britain, Holland, America and elsewhere, the proposition about the eradication of bovine tuberculosis. That procedure has cost countless millions at home and abroad. Some day we shall find that we have reached the point where the veterinary profession will say that that objective has been attained. They have said it already. They are in the process of saying it in other countries, and we trust that they will say it here. The very day we do it we shall discover that it has become urgently necessary to eliminate some other disease.

They are at it already.

I could nearly name the diseases. Johne's disease is one. As soon as we eliminate that, an application will be made to the Minister for Agriculture that, inasmuch as the Exchequer is now paying this, the next disease to be added to the list should be Johne's disease. Nobody knows, until he becomes familiar with modem veterinary science, the litany of livestock diseases that are now known. There seems to me to be no end to it. If you are an island country, the case is made that you have the difficulty of a country with a land frontier. Since rabies in dogs was eliminated here and in Great Britain, because they are island countries, this business of eliminating animal diseases has become a vastly expensive procedure. So long as this constituted a charge directly on the farming community itself, under the operation of the system obtaining under the Diseases of Animals Act, 1878, as amended by the Act of 1894, there was always the local reaction which said: "Look, we have spent as much as we intend to spend on this and we are not going to have the rates raised a shilling in the pound in order to meet the expense of elaborate campaigns to eliminate other diseases of which nobody ever heard until recently."

When the Minister is asked to add a new range of animal diseases and when he has got rid of Johne's disease, what is he going to do when some subsequent diseases are nominated? Where will he turn for defence against the creation of an endless litany?

The Minister for Agriculture is in this difficulty. In the last analysis the Minister for the time being must take the final decision. I often said in this House before that it is a very grave responsibility for the political head of the Department of Agriculture in a matter relating to highly technical subjects such as animal diseases to reject the advice of his technical advisers. If the profession seeks an interview, comes in as a professional body and makes a case that a new disease should be inserted in the schedule of diseases for eradication, and the Minister turns to his own technical staff and hands them the memorandum submitted by the professional body and the technical staff say: "We agree with that recommendation", it is very hard for the Minister to say: "I do not and I am not going to give effect to it."

He is in an entirely different position if he is in a position to say: "Well, I am advised that the technical experts of the Department think this would be a desirable thing to do but the plain fact is that the local authorities will not do it for me. I can advise them and tell them your opinion but they simply will not meet this cost." He is not going to have that line of defence hereafter and, mark you, the Minister for Finance who is now to be the financial authority will find himself in a very different position because it is not easy for him to say: "The Minister for Agriculture finds that the safety of the livestock population requires a certain expenditure for the eradication of a particular disease; nevertheless, I will not provide the money."

I do not see any Minister for Finance being in a position to do that and therefore I wonder if indeed the Minister is wise in winding up this fund at all. As I say, it is largely a matter in which the House must be guided by the Minister's own view and if he says that certain administrative economies will result, there is certainly no great matter of principle involved. It is merely a question of administration. I should be glad to hear his reaction to the two questions I raised with him. First: what principles are guiding him hereafter in the scheduling of diseases to be covered by the Exchequer expenditure envisaged; and secondly, does he not think it reasonable to include in that schedule, with the diseases already mentioned, the hazard of death by lightning?

As the Minister says, this Bill deals with two really distinct matters. The second matter is covered by Section 5 and opens up a very much wider field. I really think it would be wrong to allow this occasion to pass without informing the Minister of some misgiving that I feel in regard to the whole situation relating to bovine tuberculosis eradication. I do not think that we on this side of the House can be charged with having minimised the dimensions of this problem at any time and I do not want to suggest for a moment that the task of completing the eradication of bovine tuberculosis is anything but a formidable one. However, I am bound to say that I am disappointed with the rate of progress. There were two methods of approach to this problem when the eradication of bovine tuberculosis was first turned upon. One was to start operations in the most intensive centres of infection, which were the dairy counties and for that view, I thought there was a powerful argument. It occurred to me that with the traditional pattern of our livestock trade—our suck calves coming out of the intensive areas and passing up to the west of Ireland, where they are reared as stores, and then to the eastern counties for finishing prior to export—unless you cleared up the source of infection, you were going to have a continuous stream of infection coming out of those areas into the area you were proceeding to clear up. However, a very strong case was made for the other point of view, that there was no attempting the impossible and that if you launched into a campaign in Tipperary, Limerick, North Cork and South Kilkenny in the beginning, you would simply fall into a quagmire and never get anywhere at all.

Therefore we decided that we should start on Clare and Sligo where the incidence was relatively low and that we would aim at clearing up these areas and ridding them altogether with a view to declaring them accredited areas. At the same time, we did tackle one area in the vicinity of Bansha which was the very centre of the area of high infection. I think the Bansha area was too small to make it an administrative business to clear up tuberculosis and though we made very good initial progress in the area, we very quickly slipped back. But the progress so far as I know in Clare and Sligo was encouraging, especially in Sligo. Then we decided that we would have to think of a larger area, if we were to arrive, at any reasonably early date, at an accredited area of reasonable dimensions where we would have a reasonable prospect of maintaining freedom from tuberculosis. With this end in view, the decision was taken to embark on the campaign of clearing up the whole area west of the Shannon and using the Shannon River as a kind of natural barrier against the reintroduction of the disease. In 1954, we started in Sligo and in Clare. This is 1960 and we still have no area in the country which can be described as accredited or, as it will be under the new Bill, attested, and I think the time has come when the Minister should tell us why.

Is it through some default on the part of the farmers, or through some default on the part of his establishment, or is it due to some default on the part of the profession? I have heard a great many complaints that the incomes of veterinary surgeons under the scheme have been very high. I think those complaints are entirely misconceived. I think the desire of the Minister for Agriculture is to see the income of veterinary surgeons increasing very much because that in itself is evidence that the job is being done.

It would have been quite easy for the veterinary profession to lie down on the job and to stretch out this business interminably in the confident anticipation that they would enjoy a yearly income from it which would be comfortable and adequate, but that would have been the very reverse of what any reasonable Minister for Agriculture would desire. It is far better from the point of view of the Minister for Agriculture that the veterinary surgeon by employing a well-organised body of support should earn the highest possible income as a result of superior diligence in carrying out the necessary testing in his area.

Is there any lack of intelligence on the part of the veterinary surgeons? How can it be that after six years from the time you started counties Clare and Sligo that were so low when we started...

Clare was not low.

It was in the medium range.

It was from 22 to 24 or 25 per cent. for cows and that is not low.

It is much lower than the bad areas where it is 40 or 50. We thought 8 per cent. low, 20 to 25 medium and up to 40 per cent. bad. Look at county Sligo. When we began, the situation there was something in the order of 8 per cent. When are we going to be in a position to say that Sligo and the surrounding area is an attested or accredited area or do we have to wait until the whole area west of the Shannon has been completed? I do not think the Minister can charge me with being unreasonably critical in the past three years but I feel that there is cause for anxiety that progress is not being achieved at the rate we were entitled to expect.

I think that may be mainly due to some failure on the part of the Department in its public relations. I do not underestimate the difficulty of communicating clearly to farmers and their employees all the requirements to which they must conform if they are to do their best to contribute to the success of the scheme and I think the Minister will remember me asking him on more than one occasion if he would state clearly and precisely what he wanted the farmers to do. There was a circular sent out setting out three or four matters which the Minister wanted the farmers to do. One was to get his cattle tested; the second was to buy no beast in a fair that had not got a green tag; and the third was not to bring his purchased animal into a herd already tested without having it tested afresh.

I have done my best to follow these instructions. My recollection is that I had one test; then I had a second test; and then I was inclined to ask: "Where do we go from here?" All the cattle had green tags on their ears. There was some talk of using blue cards but we never seemed to have reached that stage. If that is my position, and I think I am doing my best to understand what is required of me, is there not some failure of public relations that it cannot be stated more precisely and more clearly what the next developments are to be? I think nothing is more inimical to the successful issue of all our efforts than a situation where a considerable body of farmers do not know the next step.

I wonder how many Deputies could state clearly what is required of farmers west of the Shannon so that they might co-operate 100 per cent. with the bovine tuberculosis scheme and, given that 100 per cent. co-operation, what are the prospects of their benefiting from the results? I am bound to confess that I do not know the answers to those two questions myself. I have no clear picture of what more I can do to help in the work of bovine tuberculosis eradication and I have no clear picture of what explicit benefit is to accrue to us in the clearance areas west of the Shannon, if everybody gives 100 per cent. co-operation. In so far as these facts are true, I am disappointed in the administration of this scheme by the Department of Agriculture and I say that with profound reluctance.

I understand that in certain counties a number of farms have become attested. I cannot vouch for these facts, but they were cited to me. One man had his farm attested and that put him in the position that he was entitled to sell cattle off his farm to an English buyer and, provided they were transported from this country to Great Britain in a properly decontaminated conveyance, they could go straight into an attested area in Britain. This man tells me that he sold some 20 beasts which conformed to all the requirements and that he applied to C.I.E. who provided the necessary transport to carry the cattle to the port of embarkation.

But he learned after consultation with the Department of Agriculture that there was no suitable shipping transport from the port of Dublin and that the only place from which the cattle could be shipped was from the port of Belfast. He then took transport for his cattle from his farm in the midlands to Belfast and, I think, the charge was of the order of £3 per head. The lorries arrived late and the cattle were loaded, but when they got to the frontier post, or rather to Dundalk, it was discovered that they were late to comply with the frontier formalities.

He finally got a telephone message from the driver of the lorry to say that they were stuck in Dundalk. The cattle had been 12 or 14 hours on the journey without water, the frontier authorities would not let them go on and what were they to do? He told them that the best thing to do was to water the cattle and bring them back, which they did. I am not blaming the Department of Agriculture for that "cuffuffle," but nothing is better calculated to hinder the development of acredited farms than an experience of that kind. I am firmly convinced that one experience of that kind is more talked of than the safe dispatch and delivery of ten times the number of cattle affected by this incident.

If we are to proceed with the accreditation of individual farms throughout the country, it does seem to me a matter of urgent concern that facilities should be available for a farmer with certainty and safety to get his cattle delivered into Great Britain. Otherwise, the whole process of accreditation will become simply a matter of expense and annoyance to the farmer, with no approximate hope of a certain profit as a result of his exertions.

I should like to ask the Minister categorically: (1) Is he in a position to state what does he want us west of the Shannon to do better to help; (2) is there any immediate prospect of that area becoming what will hereafter be known as an attested area; (3) if there is, what procedure has he in mind to provide suitable transport facilities for cattle from that area, which will enable them to proceed into attested areas in Great Britain; (4) will he tell us what is the precise significance of the green tag and for those of us who have attained that status for all the cattle on our farms where do we go from there; (5) can he tell us if we go to a fair and buy six cattle, all of them with green tags, what does the presence of the green tag in their ear mean? I have been told that people have bought, say, ten cattle with green tags and, to put it mildly, when they had these cattle tested on arrival home not all of them were found to be non-reactors.

The sixth question is—I think I should mention this because I think the "chancers" know it, and it is better that the problem should be faced than that it should be protected by discreet silence—is it true that if you want to frustrate the test, and deceive the veterinary profession, one way of doing it is to get your cattle injected with the tuberculin reagent, and then notify the veterinary surgeon to come and make a test within a month of that injection, in the certainty that cattle who have received the first injection will not react if tested during the month after receiving the injection? If that is so, how are we to arrive at a reliable conclusion at any stage that the cattle which are not reacting are, in fact, free from any tubercular infection?

Those are specific questions which I address to the Minister. Perhaps the most urgent and vital question is one he may find hard to answer, yet it should be asked. We have now delineated the area west of the Shannon which I understand consists of Donegal, Sligo, Roscommon, Mayo, Galway, Clare——

And Leitrim.

And Leitrim. Can the Minister with any degree of certainty forecast when that area will be an attested area as defined in this new Bill; (2) if he finds himself unable to do so, will he give an authoritative statement when he is closing on this Bill, as to what degree of co-operation on the part of the farmers he feels to be lacking, and what is it that farmers who want to co-operate should do that they are not now doing; (3) can he say with any degree of certainty if we do attain to attested status in that area, are there any cut and dried plans to provide effective transport facilities to open the British market to us for attested stock which the Department will undertake to protect from the kind of incident I have described to him in the case of the man who had to ship his cattle from the midlands to Great Britain via Belfast?

Having raised this question, I do not want to conclude without assuring the Minister again that we on this side of the House are prepared to give him every assistance that it is in our power to afford. We accept the fact that once Great Britain adopted the programme of eradication of bovine T.B., there was no action open to our Minister for Agriculture but to follow suit, and to seek to achieve attested status for the whole country at the earliest possible date. I should add that I am obliged to tell him, in my judgment he may lack some co-operation that would be available to him if he could make it clearer to the people exactly what he wants.

Now that disposes of the area west of the Shannon. Let us suppose the Minister is in a position to give us a reassuring reply in regard to that area. What news has he for us of the area broadly contained in Waterford, Kilkenny, Cork, Tipperary, Limerick and Kerry? I hear disquieting reports from those areas. I hear it is suggested that in certain areas the farmers are not co-operating and are beginning to lose faith in the whole programme. That would be a deplorable development. I wish I heard, as opposed to those kind of rumours, some indication from the Minister or anyone else that specific tangible progress is being made. I am sorry I do not think it is. However, I do not want to paint a gloomier picture than the facts justify.

I am prepared to concede at once that I have not at my disposal the information requisite to form a reliable judgment. I do not want anything I say here to be taken as an informed opinion that there has been any breakdown of the Bovine Tuberculosis Eradication Scheme in the Munster counties. I have no doubt whatever that I am right in calling on the Minister to give the House and the country some reliable information on the situation. I do not know what it is. I very much doubt if any Deputy representative of rural interests knows what it is It is a matter of considerable urgency that they be fully informed.

I do not know the merits of the arguments which induced the Minister for Agriculture to adopt Deputy Corry's scheme for the purchase of reactors in certain southern counties. When I inaugurated the scheme, I accepted the liability of the Minister for Agriculture to face the job of taking over reactors, paying fair compensation and disposing of them to the best advantage. That scheme was maintained by the late Senator Moylan and, I think, by the present Minister until he was urged by, I believe, Deputy Corry and a few more in that area to offer an alternative scheme whereunder he would give a grant of £15 in respect of each reactor sold by the farmer to a canning factory.

I think those who propounded that scheme to the Minister thought they would make a fortune out of it. The scheme is not worth it and is giving rise to a great deal of dissatisfaction. It may be the reason many farmers in those areas fail to collaborate as energetically in this task as the Minister would be entitled to expect them to collaborate. Would I be far wrong in suggesting that this scheme has been tried long enough? If it has not worked, it ought to be wound up and the Minister should proceed on the original basis in these areas as he has in other areas.

The scheme whereunder the Minister accepted responsibility for buying reactors has resulted in the farmers being paid on a liberal basis. I have not heard any substantiated complaint from a farmer that he has been unreasonably treated by the Department of Agriculture where he has sought to eliminate reactors from his herd. Let us be frank. I have heard that neighbours have suggested that farmers have been paid too much. If there is a fault in that direction, I believe successive Ministers for Agriculture have deliberately desired to err in that direction rather than the other— certainly I did. The structure of the scheme I left after me made it almost inevitable for my successors to err in the same direction, if error there was to be.

In the past 18 months, there has been a very substantial decline in the market value of store cattle. It is probable that the valuers acting for the Minister for Agriculture have not been following that change in values too rigorously. In so far as they have erred, I think the Minister has been correct. To attempt to err in the other direction would have made the implementation of the scheme impossible. In any case, if a small farmer, particularly, is trying to collaborate with the Minister and to eliminate all the reactors in his herd and gets something a little over and above the bare market value of the cattle he eliminates, it is no more than a help to meet the dislocation and loss that enthusiastic co-operation with the Minister must inevitably involve.

Despite the queries that have been raised as to the valuations put upon cattle by the Department of Agriculture, I believe the straight scheme of the Minister's agents purchasing the cattle and subsequently disposing of them either to the canner or to the feeder is a more flexible and satisfactory arrangement from the point of view of the Department of Agriculture, the Treasury and the farmers.

If that view is correct, I suggest the Minister ought to face the annoyance of winding up the £15 per head arrangement, to say it has not proved a success and that he prefers a uniform procedure which I believe would most expeditiously produce the result we require. There is a real danger of livestock disease eradication becoming an international problem. Our Government ought to consider approaching the Food and Agriculture Organisation of the United Nations or some similar international body to query this whole matter and to see that responsible Departments of Agriculture throughout the world will make up their mind as to what limits should be put to what otherwise would become an extremely disastrous snowball move. ment which in the end could easily result in a virtual complete disruption of the international livestock trade.

There is no country in the world to which the international trade in livestock is more vitally important than it is to us. The Bovine Tuberculosis Eradication Scheme has already presented very serious difficulties and involved this country in very heavy financial loss. I do not want to see that reproduced ad infinitum. It is time that responsible authorities in the various countries associated with the United Nations considered this problem. It has truly been said by wise statesmen in the past that war is too important a business to be left to Generals. It might be said with a certain amount of justification that the whole question of livestock disease is too important to be left to the veterinary surgeons. Generals have their place in the successful prosecution of war: veterinary surgeons have their place in the proper control of animal diseases; but the generals should not be encouraged to arrogate to themselves the functions of determining overriding policy nor should the veterinary profession be persuaded by themselves or by others to undertake responsibilities of that character which they are not really equipped to perform.

Subject to those comments, we do not propose to oppose this Bill and we avail of the occasion to assure the Minister of our earnest desire to help in any way we can in the completion of the task which he has undertaken in the eradication of bovine T.B. But to those good wishes and assurances of support we feel it right to add that we want more information and we believe the country wants it also.

As far as I can read the intention of the Minister in this Bill, it is aimed at centralising completely the control of the eradication of disease. It seems that there is some argument in favour of that, but I want to add my word of warning to what Deputy Dillon has said. He stressed the fact that we are possibly facing a sort of international school of thought on diseases of animals generally and that it may ultimately have a snowball effect.

Before I deal with the eradication of bovine T.B.—which is a subject in which every rural Deputy is particularly interested—I want to ask the Minister does he envisage in presentday world agricultural conditions and with the numerous international organisations we have dealing with that subject, a general attempt to clean up and eradicate entirely from livestock all forms of disease? If that is the case, it seems that we shall be faced here with the question of fluke. In all the reports prepared by the committees set up by the Minister to consider marketing of livestock, it was brought out that one of the things that militated against us in export was the presence of fluke. Are we to find ourselves facing an international situation in regard to animal diseases in which fluke may play as prominent a part as bovine T.B.?

We have a record which no other country has with regard to entire freedom from foot and mouth disease: we have taken precautions which no other country has taken and we have managed to maintain our position. As a result, we are in the position that we can export livestock on the hoof into other countries and they are absolutely satisfied they can take them in without putting the stock into quarantine for the period necessary in the case of stock from other countries.

What will be our position in regard to livestock diseases? Are we to have recurring every year a sort of international school of thought and all countries coming together and saying: "We must eradicate such and such disease"? I admit that there has been an active attack on bovine T.B. in several countries over an extended period but I draw the Minister's attention to the fact that we are spending vast sums of money, have spent and will continue to spend them in future and, as Deputy Dillon very properly asked, are we getting value for that money? By introducing this Bill, in which the Minister changes the term "accredited" to "attested" will we achieve anything as regards marketing our stock and in the eyes of the world, if it is necessary to prove that we are attested?

That brings me to the attested area or, as it was known up to this, the accredited area west of the Shannon. I intervene in this debate for the express purpose of trying to make clear to the Minister and his officials that, in my opinion, everything is not going according to plan. We can only judge things as we see them in our own counties. A question that is posed to me at least once a week in my constituency in Wexford concerns the high incidence of reactors. Quite recently—in the past few weeks—three or four people came to me and told me they had had their herds tested. These are people who supply milk and live by the sale of it, whether in liquid form to the creameries or to the cheese factory which we will have in that constituency. One man told me that he had a herd of 18 cattle. Of those, 14 went down, two were doubtful and that left very few that were right. He wanted to know what to do—would he trade them in? I admit that the price the Department is offering is generous but what he really wanted was to achieve continuity in his trade. He wanted to be able to sell milk as heretofore, to be able to employ the people he was employing heretofore, and carry on his husbandry. He wanted to know where he could get replacements. I should like the Minister, when he is replying to the debate, to answer that question.

We are told that very rapid progress has been made in the area west of the Shannon, that there are attested herds practically everywhere and that the area is almost free of bovine tuberculosis. I have not been able in my capacity as a public representative to advise people to buy cattle west of the Shannon and I shall tell the House why. It is because I know of several cases where people sold their herds and bought cattle in this area and the majority of them went down when tested. They went out again and bought so-called attested cattle and brought them back and again they went down. I know of two specific instances where people bought attested cattle every one of which went down when tested.

I am not attributing any blame for that to the Minister or his officials. The point I want to make is that if farmers in Leinster, Munster and other counties outside the clearance area are to follow the official advice they are getting from the Government and the Department of Agriculture to eradicate tuberculosis in their herds they want to be sure of replacements. From the instances I have known I would say that as high a figure as 60 per cent. of the replacements have been reactors. That poses the question, is there something wrong?

I do not think the blame rests with the veterinary profession. In that connection I am referring to the official scheme conducted by the Department of Agriculture. The officials directly responsible for that would be the veterinary surgeons employed by the Department. I do not think that the veterinary surgeons are to blame because I do not think the Department has sufficient personnel to conduct the scheme. I do not know what the number is but I do know that up to a few months ago they had nothing like sufficient staff to superintend a scheme. In such a big scheme there must be official supervision of the tests carried out.

The reason I raise this matter is that as I read the Bill the Minister's idea is to bring the scheme up from local level to central control. It might be necessary to do that because it is a big scheme, a national scheme, in which there is a lot of money involved and because there might be undue hardship imposed in certain areas as against others but decentralisation is necessary for efficiency in connection with any matter concerned with agricultural life.

The Minister must give this matter due consideration. In this Bill he is removing the responsibilities of the committees of agriculture, who have played their part in Irish agricultural life, and is bringing the matter under the direct control of the Department. Therefore, he must be able to assure the House that he can give the proper supervision at local level. That is where the bovine tuberculosis eradication scheme has fallen down. The mere introduction of a Bill substituting the word "attested" for "accredited" will not achieve the objective.

There is considerable anxiety among the rural community. I do not know if the Minister appreciates that but, speaking for my own constituency, I can assure him that that is the case and I have no doubt that other Deputies from rural areas could confirm that there is considerable anxiety and confusion.

I know people who did everything that it was possible for them to do to have accredited herds. They bought cattle in the so-called attested area; they bought attested cattle; they bought cattle at attested sales. The cattle proved to be reactors. That proves that there is something wrong with the scheme. There is no use in spending huge sums of money unless we get a return for it. Admittedly, if we wish to conserve our store cattle trade there is no alternative to attestation. There is no use in continuing on the present lines unless the Minister can assure the House that what has been said is wrong. There is no use in his merely saying it is wrong. He must give facts. He must tell us how many attested herds there are in the country. He must tell us why cattle that came from the area west of the Shannon and the other attested areas failed to pass the test.

If he does that he may be able to restore confidence in a scheme which I regret to have to say has been badly administered so far, due to lack of sufficient qualified personnel, due perhaps to having too many people instead of a small expert committee in the Department directed by professional experts to see that the work is properly done. By having such an expert committee the Minister would be doing greater service to the people and to the taxpayer who, in the final analysis, are paying the money to enable us to maintain the store cattle trade which is so vital to our economic life.

I do not think anybody who reads this Bill and who considers the whole problem of bovine tuberculosis that arises under it can be altogether happy about the situation. Before dealing with that matter I want to refer to the estimate that the Minister has given of cost in relation to the Diseases of Animals Act itself. The Minister is aware that I was here all the afternoon on the Finance Bill and that, therefore, if I was to sustain body and soul, I had not the opportunity of listening to him personally. However, I am grateful to him for his courtesy in circulating a copy of his speech and I assume that he did not add anything to the script that adverts to the problems that I wish to discuss.

In relation to the Fund, the Minister has said the Bill makes provision for keeping the Fund open until 31st March, 1963, and for replenishing it in the meantime to pay outstanding claims. He has told us that at the present time the Fund is in debt as there are arrears to be met, but it appears that four assessments of a halfpenny each would be sufficient to pay outstanding demands on the Fund and to keep it going until it is wound up. He then goes on to refer to a maximum of fourpence in the £ and this is what I want to query: "the assessments made up to 31st March, 1963, should not exceed twopence." Does he mean that twopence to be the total of four halfpence or does he mean that it might reach to the sum of twopence in the £ in the last financial year mentioned, that is to say, 1962-63 to which he has referred?

I am always rather suspicious about estimates that Ministers make of what payments are likely to arise for local authorities. I am always rather suspicious when Ministers of any Government, but particularly of this Government for the reason I shall mention in a moment, make any estimates of what the local authorities are likely to meet. Whenever I hear an estimate of that sort I cannot help throwing my mind back to the time when the present Minister for Finance was Minister for Health and introduced what is now the Health Act. I cannot help remembering the unequivocal assurances he gave at that time that, so far as it was humanly possible for him and the officers of his Department to make any estimate of cost, the costs of the administration of the Health Act were not likely under any circumstances whatsoever to exceed 2/- in the £. It was not merely the cost of the increased health services but the total cost of all health services, he said, were not likely to reach more than 2/-. However, let me give him the benefit of the doubt; he said at that time that the costs for local authorities were not likely to reach 2/- in the £. We all know what the Health Act charges cost us now. They have gone away beyond 2/-; in fact I think they have gone to about 18/- in the £, nine times what the Minister estimated.

Admittedly the Minister for Agriculture has pitched his sights a good deal lower but, still bearing in mind that previous example that I have in front of me, I am wondering whether the estimating of this Minister will be any more accurate than that of the then Minister for Health in relation to the Health Act. Time will tell in this case as it did in that one. I hope this Minister is correct and that we will not see in this case as we did in the other what one might term a surcharge skying up the estimate. So much for the Fund.

The Minister passed over very lightly the change made in this Bill of the wording in relation to those herds that have successfully eradicated bovine tuberculosis. I do not think any of us will quarrel with the actual change in the word but I agree completely with Deputy Esmonde that we want something considerably more than a change in the word. The success or failure of the bovine eradication scheme means not merely success or failure in maintaining our store cattle export trade but it means success or failure in our being able to keep our economy as a viable economy.

If we fail to maintain our store cattle trade, then it does not matter what we do in relation to industrialisation or anything else. Our standard of living will go down seriously and substantially. It does not matter to us whether it is wise for the British to go in for the eradication of bovine tuberculosis. The fact is when they have eradicated it, if we are to keep our store trade, if we need to keep our store trade, and we do, we must follow suit.

I have heard some people argue that it is unnecessary and undesirable to proceed with the eradication of bovine T.B. for several reasons. They are wrong but it is as well that some of their reasons should be mentioned so as to be exposed. I have heard doctors suggest that all of us have some immunisation from tuberculosis by reason of having contracted tuberculosis to a greater or lesser degree at some time in our lives. Perhaps that contraction arose from meat that we may have eaten; in the vast majority of cases it is not sufficient to do any harm but it does act as an immuniser. They have suggested that, in that respect, the vast advances made in medical science in dealing with it, the successful efforts that have been achieved here in overcoming human T.B. make it unnecessary for us to do this. They have even gone so far as to say that as bovine T.B. is completely eradicated it may mean that the people in these islands will be more susceptible to the human disease because we shall not have acquired the immunisation we would get otherwise. I am not a doctor and not competent to offer any opinion but if that is so, it is surely something that is easily met by medical science in the same way as the medical profession has already met and combated the disease itself.

In pressing ahead with the eradication of bovine tuberculosis the first essential—I think that, though the Minister and I may not agree on many subjects, he will agree with me on this —is to get the right psychological approach on the part of the people as a whole. No scheme of this nature can possibly hope to succeed unless the people concerned—the farmers— are seriously and absolutely persuaded of the vital necessity for the success of the scheme. The mere change suggested in this Bill is not sufficient to ensure that and I suggest that the Bill should have provided considerably more than it does.

I came across a case the other day which shows the difficulties in the way, difficulties which can be overcome. As far as I can understand the position—if I have misunderstood it I am sure the Minister will be very quick to contradict me—if a herd owner at present takes his herd through the fourteen-day test and forthwith removes any that are doubtful or are reactors, and then goes on to keep them for the next 60 days for the next test, approaching thereby in the direction of having an attested herd within the meaning of this Bill, and if, on the second test, in which, let us say, 50 cattle are involved, he finds he has one reactor and one doubtful, he then has 48 that have passed. He removes forthwith the doubtful beast and the reactor. If his cattle are coming to the stage at that point at which they are fit for sale and, if kept, will either go back or become too heavy, he is unable to sell the remaining 48 as 14-day tested cattle.

Is all this relevant?

I think so because it is part of the method by virtue of which the herd becomes attested.

It seems to me this Bill is only an adjustment of names.

And the Minister for Local Government will not get in to-night.

It deals only with clinical T.B. in animals.

I have not got the Bill at the moment, but I read it.

I think the Deputy should be allowed to raise the wider issue to achieve the wider purpose of not allowing the Minister for Local Government to get in to-night.

From something a little bird told me, I understood the Minister for Local Government was not anxious to get in to-night anyway.

The very opposite is the case. The Deputy has disappointed me.

The Deputy's submission does not seem to be relevant at all on this Bill which deals with the substitution in the 1957 Act of "attested area" for "accredited area", the substitution of "attested" for "accredited", in each case where that word occurs, and the substitution for "Register of Accredited Herds" of "Register of Attested Herds".

If the Chair will bear with me, I think the Chair will see clearly that the vital issue in this Bill is to ensure that we operate a bovine tuberculosis eradication scheme in such a way that it will conform more closely with what they require in Britain. That is the reason the Minister has given for the change contained in this Bill. The Minister himself has indicated that it is to prevent confusion.

To-morrow, in the elections.

Whatever about confusion, the Deputy has not convinced me that one can talk about the principle and the main operation of the Tuberculosis Eradication Act on this Bill. Section 5 is the only section that has any relevancy.

If the Chair will look at the Minister's speech.

I have only the Bill, and I have to go by the Bill.

I am quite sure the Minister would not dream of being out of order, and the Minister is presumed to appreciate and understand——

I must say the Deputy is not making a good effort, although I appreciate the purpose that is behind it all right.

The Minister seems to be very clear on everybody's purpose to-night. I wish I were clear as to what his purpose was in operating——

The Deputy's submissions are not relevant to the Bill at all.

But I want to suggest to the Minister, when he was introducing this change in this section of the Bill, he should have included another change akin thereto at the same time.

That is a different matter. That would be on the main purpose of the Bill.

No, Sir. The main purpose of this Bill is to ensure there will not be any confusion in the minds of cattle producers who have gone through the net and removed the reactors.

I do not want to limit the Deputy, but I suggest he should not open so widely the entire tuberculosis eradication policy.

I shall try to narrow it as much as I can.

Talk about the clinic.

Would that be in order?

I would say so.

Would it be in order to talk about clinical reactors?

This is not Question time for the Ceann Comhairle.

No, Sir, but the Minister should quite clearly have made an amendment to the scheme at the same time to cover the case that I was just half way through mentioning when you ruled it was irrelevant, and I have not had a full opportunity yet of showing you the relevancy of it.

The Deputy did not do too badly at all.

He did very well.

As I said, when a herd owner is on his journey to become attested now, instead of accredited, when he has had his first 14-day test and has removed the reactors or doubtful animals, he waits 60 days. It is at the end of that he has the second test and again removes doubtful animals or reactors. If the remainder of his herd at that stage are getting over-heavy, or ready for sale and he desires to sell them, because the Minister has made no order in relation thereto, he cannot sell them as 14-day tested cattle. When he was altering the scheme, the Minister should have clearly brought in a regulation by virtue of which that could be done. In the present situation, I understand it can be done only by an ex post facto breach of the order—the tagging could only be done by a veterinary surgeon after the testing had been completed. I do not know why the Minister did not include such a provision in Section 5, and in fact I am not certain he could not have covered it already by another Order.

It seems to me that is certainly one of the examples which shows it is quite useless merely changing nomenclature if, at the same time, you are building up grievances. As I said already, if you build up a grievance in relation to a scheme, you will not get it through. You must depend on goodwill and co-operation all around, but let me say that to the extent to which this change introduces something that will get a measure of more ready co-operation from the farming community, the Bill is welcome and the Minister is to be commended on it. However, it is not merely enough to do that. The Minister must do more than that. He must try to ensure that the reasons, the purposes and the objectives will be readily understood by the people in order to induce them to have their herds become attested and that they will understand why there should be a change from "accredited" to "attested".

I do not think that enough people realise the absolute necessity for this if the whole national economy is to survive and I was surprised that when introducing the Bill the Minister did not give us better particulars as to what was likely to eventuate from the scheme in the near future. I am not suggesting that he should have gone into the entire history of the matter but he has said that he agrees it is absolutely necessary to ensure that no obstacle is placed in the way of our cattle export trade. I should have liked him to develop that phrase still further, to make it clear what other obstacles he thought existed, and generally why he felt people were not taking as full advantage of the scheme as they should.

By bringing in a Bill with just a change in nomenclature, the Minister makes the implication that he considers there is no other change necessary in the scheme and the purpose of discussion on Second Reading is to indicate whether the House considers the Minister is right in dealing only with the matters that are included in the Bill. There is the clear implication in the Minister's introductory statement that the only thing worrying him in relation to the scheme as a whole is a change of nomenclature, and I do not think the people in the country accept that that is the situation. I have heard a great deal of argument to the contrary and it cuts right across political thought. The argument does not follow political party lines at all. Some of the Minister's supporters say the scheme is breaking down and I have heard some of my supporters arguing that it is not. It is not a question of political thought at all, but all of them agree that there is a necessity to do something more to tighten it up than merely changing "accredited" to "attested". In so far as the Minister has implied that that is all he considers is necessary, I do not think he is fulfilling his duties in relation to the scheme.

It is wonderful all the thoughts that arise in a man's mind when he is sitting in this House. I shall put it this way: when you work fairly hard all day and that night there is a pleasant function to which you are invited——

The cat is out too late.

——and you happen to arrive in here dangerously late, with time running against you, and as the proposals you are submitting are harmless and simple and very often proposals like them get a speedy canter through the House, then something like this happens and you wonder do members of the Opposition know that this pleasant treat is in store for the Minister.

I did not know that.

One is inclined to say they would not be just as mean as that.

I understood it was to-morrow night that the Minister was to go to a function.

Other thoughts occur to one, as they did to me to-night. I said to myself: "The local elections are on to-morrow and the Vote for the Department of Local Government is to be taken. Perhaps it might be a good idea for them that the Minister's speech should not be heard to-night". A further thought occurred to my mind that perhaps the shadow Minister might not be present to take up the running after the Minister had made his speech. These later thoughts were more favourable to the Opposition than the one that originally occurred to me.

Which is the one you said you originally thought?

That was the thought that it was done through sheer meanness.

Could we come to a discussion of the Bill by some misadventure?

And let the Minister go to his party.

I should like to have mercy thrust upon me but I am not the sort of fellow to seek it. Once when I was Chief Whip, a member of our Party who was a great disciplinarian, the late Alderman Tom Kelly, came to me and said: "Can I leave the House?" I said: "You cannot, Tom. You must stay here because there is likely to be a division." He replied: "I have taken the shilling anyhow and I suppose I must do the work." So it is with Ministers —they cannot look for mercy if it is not extended to them.

I have been seeking to cover a very wide field, one that I had not intended to cover in dealing with this very simple measure. However, I would not mind doing so even if I am unprepared, but I am not following that line because for the past few days, I have been preparing my Estimate speech, a very long, dryish kind of speech, as are all Estimate speeches dealing with these matters. I would not like to deny myself the opportunity of making that speech, which I have spent so much time preparing with the assistance of my officials and for that reason, I shall confine myself to what is in this little measure.

First, I want to assure the House that when it was first suggested to me that we might abolish this Diseases of Animals Fund, I was quite critical of the proposal until I was completely satisfied that, by doing so, we would not be imposing any further burden upon the local authorities or the rate-payers at large. Having satisfied myself in that regard, I had no difficulty in coming to the conclusion that it was wasteful and cumbersome to maintain a Fund such as this, made up almost entirely of the rates struck from time to time at the request of the Minister under the different Acts since the Act of 1878 under which this Fund was established.

I went into the figures during all that period, saw the contributions made to the Fund by the different local authorities and saw the various amounts paid out of the Fund to these same local authorities. I admit that when the Fund was set up in 1878, the picture was entirely different because then the schedule of diseases for which the local authorities were responsible was much more formidable. However, that is no longer the case. There is no question of adding to or subtracting from the list of diseases for which the local authorities are responsible. That being so, I was satisfied that the best course was to wind up the Fund and transfer whatever responsibility remained for the payment of part-time veterinary inspectors, in some cases part-time sheep-dipping officers and the responsibility for the administration of the sheep-dipping Order. There was no point in maintaining such a Fund because of its cumbersome nature and the waste that must arise from it.

These very limited responsibilities were discharged from the rates, and I doubt if they were discharged very effectively. I have a suspicion that the Sheep-dipping Order was not very effectively operated. It has been suggested to me that in some counties the return of the number of sheep dipped fell far short of the total numbers of sheep in the counties concerned. I have often thought in regard to these part-time services for which local bodies pay fairly substantial sums that the people they are designed to benefit do not benefit to the extent to which they are entitled. Indeed, it is a matter I should like to pursue further to ensure that the work done by those appointed will be effectively carried out.

I come now to the proposal in this measure to change the term "accredited" to "attested", which gave Deputies opposite a right to wander. I shall not suggest that any member of the House was out of order at any time. This is only a slight change, but it is a fairly important change. However, Deputies opposite who may have been a bit "stuck", if I may use the term, to find material to keep things going over the required period were, perhaps, given an opportunity because of the fact that I was in any way tampering with the Bovine T.B. Eradication Scheme under the 1957 Act. I and, I think, my predecessor, have been urging this change. It should be a very simple matter to change the word "accredited' to "attested." I do not know how the term "accredited" came to be chosen in the first place. I feel I would have been very hesitant myself in accepting that word, having regard to the fact that the word "attested" was applied in Britain. Although both words mean the same thing, our choice of the word "accredited" was bound to create a good deal of confusion without serving any purpose whatever. People in the trade who have more experience than I have have been urging us to make that change and it is in response to all these requests that we took advantage of this occasion to effect it.

I want again to assure the House that I have no desire whatever to refuse to cover the whole field, but it is only a matter of waiting for a couple of days. Why should I deprive myself of the opportunity of delivering the long, dry speech I have been preparing? Why should I deprive myself of all the publicity and all the opportunity I shall have of replying to all I shall hear? Even if Deputy Dillon has to say again what he said this evening, we all repeat ourselves and it will not do a bit of harm.

I should like to ask the Minister how can he be in any doubt as to why the word "attested" was used?

I know that if I were in charge of the Bill, it would not be chosen.

Does the Minister not know well?

I do not.

The Minister has been there three years and he ought to be able to find out.

What difference does it make what the reason is? As long as it was there, it had to be changed and is being changed.

If the Minister does not know, he ought to inquire and if he does not know, he does not know something he ought to know. If he made the slightest inquiry, he could find out.

It is part of an Act of Parliament that went through this House. I agreed from the first day it should not be here and it should not be in the Act. I am taking the first opportunity that presented itself to me to remove it and knowing that I know it is enough.

This is all codology. It is in because our scheme in its initial form did not correspond to the British scheme and the British suggested that you apply the word "attested". You may have changed the scheme to bring it in line with the British scheme. The Minister knows that there were discussions with the British and it is as a result of that that the change is now made. I try to be as co-operative as I can but if the Minister wants to make offhand remarks subsequently, he must expect the answer. If he does not know the facts, he ought to know.

I am in a position to know that that is not a fact. Our chief veterinary adviser at the time insisted on this word "accredited".

Exactly. Why did the Minister not say so?

He is not alive now.

Question put and agreed to.

Committee Stage?

Perhaps I could get it now?

Maybe the Minister will not.

There is no urgency about it.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 28th June, 1960.
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