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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 Nov 1960

Vol. 185 No. 1

Health (Fluoridation of Water Supplies) Bill, 1959—Committee Stage.

Debate resumed on amendment No. 10:
NEW SECTION.
Before Section 8 to insert the following new section:—
"No regulation made by the Minister under this Act shall come into operation unless and until it has been laid before each House of the Oireachtas, and approved by a resolution of each such House."—(Deputy Ryan.)

Mr. Ryan

My purpose in moving this amendment was to ensure the fullest possible discussion in the House on any proposal that any area in the country should have flourine added to its piped water supply. As it stands, Section 8 provides that the Minister shall make regulations and that they shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after they are made. It also states that if a resolution annulling a regulation is passed by either such House within the next subsequent 21 days on which that House has sat after the regulation is laid before it, the regulation shall be annulled accordingly, but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder. My objection to that is that it may permit the fluoridation of a public water supply in the area of a local authority which has already gone on record as being opposed to the fluoridation of its public water supply. If this House is in recess, some months might pass before it would have an opportunity of reviewing a regulation made under the Act by the Minister.

I feel that despite the efforts of those opposed to the fluoridation of public water supplies to make the public aware of what the Minister is endeavouring to do, there are many people, some of them members of this House, who are not yet aware that the deliberate intention of the Bill is to put fluorine poison into public water supplies and, because people have not yet considered this matter fully, I think no regulation should be made, no regulation should be enforced or operated, unless and until this House and the other House have given the matter their fullest consideration.

We are aware that some local authorities have already gone on record as being opposed to the fluoridation of their water supplies. That being so, I believe the House has an obligation to ensure that fluorine is not put into the water supplies of these local authorities until it has had the fullest opportunity of considering the matter, and I feel the House has not yet properly debated this radical proposal. Of its 147 members, I believe only ten members have yet spoken their minds in public on this very important matter and it has amazed me that those speakers who did so from the opposite side of the House, on each occasion on which they rose, showed they had not read the remarks of those opposed to the Bill or, apparently, had not been present when we spoke. If they were present, they must have been fast asleep because the same irrelevant argument were recited by them whenever they spoke. They endeavoured to draw a comparison between flouridation and pasteurisation, which are two entirely different matters. Even the Minister himself has indicated that he has not given due regard to what has been said by those opposed to the Bill and he has deliberately accused them of the basest motives and gross recklessness.

The Deputy should address himself to the amendment.

Mr. Ryan

I am developing my argument.

The Deputy is seeking to go over all the merits or demerits of the Bill on this amendment. He may not do that. The main argument is whether a regulation made by the Minister shall come into operation until it has been laid before each House. That is the only argument— whether that should be done or not. The Deputy may not travel over all the provisions of the Bill in order to justify his argument.

Mr. Ryan

I respectfully say that the purpose of the amendment is to achieve that no regulation shall come into operation until it is laid before each House of the Oireachtas and approved by a resolution of each House. It is because due weight has not been given to the expert medical opinion opposed to fluoridation of water supplies that I say each and every regulation should come before each House. It is of paramount importance that the Oireachtas should not seek to impose fluoridation of public water supplies on any local authority which has already expressed its opposition to it and, if we accept Section 8 as it stands, that is what will occur. Fluoridation will be in operation before this or the other House has had an opportunity to upset the Minister's regulations.

A very good reason why we should not tolerate such a provision is that under the Bill, as drafted by the Minister, a local authority may be obliged by ministerial regulation to expend money on the acquisition of capital equipment for fluoridation.

The Deputy has travelled over all these provisions before. He is now seeking to make a Second Reading speech on the amendment and he will not be allowed to do that.

Mr. Ryan

With great respect, Sir, I am pointing out how it is necessary to have my amendment accepted in order to avoid waste of expenditure.

I know what the Deputy is trying to point out. He is trying to make a speech covering all the provisions of the Bill and the only matter before the House is whether the Minister's regulations should be laid before each House for approval. That is the only matter to which he should address himself.

Mr. Ryan

It is a matter of whether or not we are to have the regulations approved before money is expended or afterwards.

The Deputy made that point already during the discussion of the Bill and I cannot allow repetition of that nature.

Mr. Ryan

With respect, Sir, I never made this point before.

Whether the Deputy did or not, it was made and I cannot allow repetition.

Mr. Ryan

It is directly relevant——

I cannot waste time arguing the point with the Deputy. The Deputy should address himself to the amendment and nothing else.

Mr. Ryan

I am addressing myself to the amendment. With the greatest respect, Sir, I think your ruling is unfair and is an effort to curb discussion on the point I am endeavouring to maintain.

The Deputy may not question my ruling. That is my ruling.

Mr. Ryan

Obviously there is no point in my amendment unless it be that we want to stop wasteful expenditure before the House rescinds a regulation by the Minister. That is the point. If that is irrelevant, I should like you to tell me, Sir, what is relevant?

The Deputy made that point two or three times. If the Deputy persists, I shall have to ask him to resume his seat.

Mr. Ryan

This is a matter of the greatest importance to this country. I respectfully say it is not a matter which we can arbitrarily determine at this stage for the whole country. There may be, in relation to particular local authorities, a different concentration of natural fluorine in the water supply. We shall not have an opportunity of considering that in relation to any regulation made by the Minister until, perhaps, it is too late unless my amendment is accepted. Under an amendment to the Bill, which the Minister has already made, a substantial change has been made as compared with the Bill originally introduced. The effect of that amendment is to cause a survey to be made in advace of fluoridation and that survey would be presented to each House of the Oireachtas.

Surely the Deputy knows he is now travelling outside the terms of the amendment?

Mr. Ryan

With respect, no, Sir.

The Deputy will please resume his seat.

Mr. Ryan

But, Sir——

The Deputy will resume his seat. He is endeavouring to avoid the ruling of the Chair.

Mr. Ryan

I am not being allowed to make my point.

The Deputy will resume his seat.

Mr. Ryan

We are being prevented from having a proper discussion.

The Deputy will resume his seat.

This section is in common form. It appears in practically every Statute enacted by this House. For that reason, I do not propose to accept the amendment.

Mr. Ryan

I think the Minister's remarks emphasise the very need for the amendment. There are so many Acts which now contain this provision, as provided by the Minister—that a regulation shall operate until rescinded by the House—that members of this House and of the other House are inundated day after day with long lists of official titles which mean nothing to them. Even a Deputy working the full round of the clock on his Parliamentary duties, apart from other duties, would find it impossible to chase after all the various regulations brought to his notice when he gets the Order Paper.

Again, when the House is in recess, Deputies are not made aware of regulations. They are not aware that these regulations have been made until the Order Paper is presented to them. On account of the colossal volume of regulations of one kind or another now in the hands of Deputies, I respectfully say that in such a vital matter, affecting the integrity of human beings, no regulation should be put into operation unless and until this House has had an opportunity of discussing the matter and approving it by a specific resolution of the House.

I must confess I had never thought before about what Deputy Ryan said. Are regulations made by the Minister, or any other Minister, notified to Deputies during the Recess? The Minister will appreciate that a period of three months could elapse.

No, as a rule they are not; but they are tabled.

But in the ordinary course if a regulation is tabled——

I think the Deputy can take it as a practical fact that if a regulation is made it will be made in sufficient time to enable the House to have a discussion on the matter before anything is done on it, if the House so desires.

Mr. Ryan

Would the Minister consider bringing in an amendment to that effect or giving that undertaking?

Would the Minister clarify the point raised by Deputy Ryan and Deputy Corish? Am I correct in understanding that the position would be, if a regulation is in fact made at the beginning of the Summer Recess, that the period of 21 days does not commence running until the House reassembles?

It is 21 sitting days. Amendment put and declared lost.

Section 8 agreed to.
Section 9 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported with amendment.

I undertook to see what I could do to meet some points of view expressed in relation to the effects of fluoridation on health. I would be very glad for a number of reasons to clarify this matter, first of all, to ease the minds of our own people and then to convince other people elsewhere, that the suggested dangers are in fact fanciful. I should like for that purpose to consider the terms of an amendment, but I am finding some difficulty in getting one drafted to express my purpose. Therefore, I would suggest that the Report Stage be taken this day fortnight.

Report Stage ordered for Wednesday, 7th December, 1960.

May I say that this is one of the few occasions in the course of the discussion when we can be grateful for the Minister's contribution?

The Deputy is talking with his tongue in his cheek. He is supporting Deputy Ryan all the time with his tongue in his cheek.

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