Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 Nov 1960

Vol. 185 No. 1

Private Members' Business. - Dairy and Cattle Industries: Motion.

Mr. Wycherley

I move:

That in view of the serious position of the dairy and cattle industries, Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the whole question of prices and marketing should be reviewed.

I do not want to give the impression that either Deputy Finucane or myself knows more about the marketing of agricultural produce than the Minister, his officials or many important men engaged in the industry. I have no hesitation in conveying to the Minister and to the House our disappointment with the progress in market development and research. Our system of marketing agricultural produce is obsolete. It is the same today as it was 50 years ago.

We are still exporting the bulk of our cattle on the hoof. Irish farmers suffer and have suffered the whims and fancies of the English farmer. At the slightest notification of foot and mouth disease in Britain, the Irish farmer suffers because the markets are held up. That happened 50 years ago and it is still happening. The least upset in the British market has an unfavourable reaction on our farmers. It is high time some practical steps were taken by our Government to ensure that more of our cattle are processed for export. That refers particularly to the British market, which is considerable.

This question must be reviewed. We should have abattoirs to enable us to slaughter more cattle. That would give tremendous employment. In slaughtering more of our cattle, we would have raw materials for the development of several industries. The same applies to the slaughter of our sheep. The development of a leather factory using cattle hides and of a major industry based on wool would provide more employment. We hear great talk about our lack of raw materials and we search the world for industrialists willing to come here and set up industries. We look to the four corners of the world for raw materials with which new industries can be set up, but we seem to ignore altogether the very plain fact that we have the greatest of raw material on our own farms. If we could draw public attention to this raw material and have the necessary finances, backed by the Government, we could produce numerous commodities from the slaughter of our livestock at home, and allied with that, should be the transport of carcase meat to export markets.

We need more and better refrigerator ships to transport our meat to the various ports in England. There are 10,000,000 people in the city of London and they alone could consume more than we could send them. There are also big populations in Liverpool, Birmingham and Glasgow but we need the necessary ships to transport our finished products to all those markets. We need a proper marketing organisation and suitable depots at those ports for the distribution of our finished products and, when we get them, we should ensure that only the best is sent to them. The customers there are anxious to secure our Irish products because they know they can get them fresh and clean. Cattle and sheep killed in Dublin or Cork today could be sold fresh in any English market tomorrow, but we have not availed ourselves of the tremendous geographical advantage which we enjoy, and it is high time the Government did something practical and realised the importance of our own raw materials worked to the best advantage.

Some years ago, I welcomed the announcement made by the Minister for Agriculture that he was allocating a sum of £250,000 for market research for agricultural produce, but I am sorry to say that the progress made since then has been shockingly slow and disappointing. There is an old saying that big bodies move slowly, but this business is moving too slowly for my taste and that of the people who are suffering from lack of guidance in this respect. The farmer himself is not to blame for this deficiency. He is a producer and is not in a position to explore and develop markets in foreign countries. That is a matter altogether outside his capacity. It is a matter that should be tackled by a combined effort on the part of all the interested parties such as those engaged in the processing and canning of meat, with the support of the Government behind them. It will cost money, but, in my opinion, it would be money very well spent because it would provide a considerable amount of employment on the land. I sincerely hope that some practical step will be taken in the immediate future and that lack of money will not be responsible for delaying action any longer.

We read in the newspapers of the vast amount of money being spent on other projects such as the development of jet aircraft services and the Verolme Dockyard at Haulbowline. It is good to see development of that nature but I often wonder if the money is being spent to the best advantage of the Irish people. I feel that if more money were channelled into market development, with particular emphasis on our next door neighbour, England, it would be of far greater benefit to the Irish people as a whole than money spent in any other way.

Having dealt so much with cattle and sheep exports and the industries which could develop from the slaughter of livestock at home, I shall now turn to the dairying industry because that industry is the parent of the cattle industry and is the foundation of the country's whole economy. The production of milk is a very important industry, giving a tremendous amount of employment. Recently, the Minister said that a slight increase in that production was causing a headache but I hope to see production increased still more. Even though it may cause a headache, I believe that headache can be cured, and cured very effectively if our milk production is channelled into the right lines for the export market.

Studying statistics today, I was amazed to note that we are importing £64,000 worth of dairy products, cheese, etc., and I should like to get an explanation of why we are importing cheese and other dairy products in 1960 into a land which is exporting its own dairy products to other countries. I cannot see the sense in that. It may be an infinitesimal amount in the eyes of the Minister, but to me, £64,000 appears to be a big sum to leave this country for dairy products from the first of January to the end of August, at a time when we are supposed to have a surplus of milk.

When I came first into Dáil Éireann, some four years ago, I stressed the importance of developing our cheese industry. A gallon of milk makes a pound of cheese but it takes two and a half gallons of milk to make a pound of butter.

Mr. Moher

No!

Mr. Wycherley

I feel that the development of our cheese industry, the development of our chocolate crumb industry, and the production of fresh cream for the export market would be of great benefit to the dairy farmers. Dried milk is very important also and, if manufactured in large quantities, would find a ready market in many foreign countries, particularly the African countries where milk is so scarce. Even out in the Congo, where our Irishmen are serving, dried milk would be a splendid substitute for new milk, which is unobtainable there. Out of evil comes good, and perhaps we can explore markets in these foreign countries to compensate us—if anything could compensate us—for the great losses we have sustained in those countries.

Every effort should be made to convert more of our milk into products for which there is a market, products such as chocolate crumb, dried milk and cheese instead of converting too much of it into butter, which is the most uneconomic way to dispose of milk. It will always be essential, of course, to have sufficient milk produced here for converting into butter for the home market, but I doubt the wisdom of converting more than is necessary, if there is a ready market for the other products I have mentioned.

We have had reports from the Marketing Committee which has been set up. Some of these reports date back to 26th March, 1959, so that a long time has elapsed without anything being done. They have made certain recommendations, some of which I approve and some of which I do not approve. In any case, it is better to do something than to do nothing. I sincerely hope that some practical steps will be taken in the immediate future to avail of the markets in the cities and towns of England by establishing depots there for Irish beef, mutton, wool, milk, chocolate crumb and all the various commodities we produce.

We are lagging hopelessly behind in the advertising of our produce. I can see what other countries are doing by way of advertising, particularly in London, Liverpool and Glasgow. The Italians are advertising their wares. At every street corner you will see placards advertising their shoes and other wares of every description. The Spaniards and the Danes are advertising, but when I was in England the only thing I saw advertised was Irish linen—and I was prepared to bet one hundred to one that that linen was probably manufactured in Japan. We have not done our duty in that respect. We should carry on an advertising campaign, particularly in England where the demand for our fresh Irish food would be colossal, if only we made the necessary effort to put our wares on the market in a proper and fit condition. We should advertise more on the street corners, on the screen and on television and let the people know we have Irish products for sale on the English market.

Of course, there must be continuity of supply and there is no use advertising unless we have that continuity. But I could guarantee the Minister, on behalf of the farmers of Ireland, that that continuity of supply is assured if they get from the Minister a guaranteed price to enable them to realise even a very moderate income from their labour. In recent years, we have had the experience all too often that when production increased, down went the price. We had that unfortunate experience with milk some couple of years ago when the price was dropped by a 1d. or a 1¾d. per gallon. When the levy was imposed, the farmers immediately dropped production, until we were on the verge of being unable to supply the home requirements of butter. However, with favourable weather conditions this year and a better price for milk as a result of the removal of the levy, the production of butter and milk is on the increase.

I sincerly hope the Minister will make a statement at the conclusion of this debate that no matter how much milk or how many pigs are produced, the Government are prepared to stand firm and ensure that there will be no reduction in prices but rather an increase, because the more produced, the better chance there will be of capturing and holding export markets which require the guarantee of continuity of supply. If the farmers were assured of a reasonable price for their products, they could double or quadruple their present output, but our experience in the past has not been happy in that regard. The Government made blunders in reducing prices and the country suffered as a result of it.

We have a motion from the Labour Party now looking for more holidays. That will not help the farmers to reduce their costs but rather will it increase the cost of production of every commodity. The cow must be attended not alone four or five days a week but seven days a week and the pigs must be fed seven days a week. The Minister should be prepared to take into account the increased costs of production brought about as a result of the demand for increased holidays, increased rates and increased rents and all the rest, and to ensure that at least the people living or trying to eke out an existence in rural Ireland will have their financial backing in carrying on the good work of producing hard-earned wealth from the farms of this country. I look with confidence to the Minister to make a strong pronouncement, when replying to this debate, requesting increased output from the farmers and giving us an assurance for the future that, no matter what the increased output is, there will be an assured market at reasonable and remunerative prices.

In the past couple of years the Irish farmers have not enjoyed the prosperity we would all wish them to enjoy. Their income has dropped considerably—it ranges from a drop of £17 million down to £12 million. Exports of cattle have considerably increased this year but that is because these exports were held up last year and there was a carryover. I hope to see the day when fewer fat cattle will go out of this country on the hoof, when they will go out as tinned or processed meat instead. There is an assured market if it is developed along the right lines.

We should have a trade representative attached to every Irish Embassy and he should understand the requirements of Irish agriculture. I have no doubt that sales of Irish agricultural produce could be made in most countries if the market were explored. Greater efforts should be made in this direction and we should have a Government representative keeping a keen eye on market developments, attached to every Irish Embassy.

I do not know what the future may hold for us in regard to the Inner Six and the Outer Seven. As things are shaping, it would be premature to discuss the prospects to-night. Perhaps something good will come out of it; perhaps commonsense will prevail and that the Six and the Seven will unite in an European common market, but whether or not that happens, we must depend largely, in the first instance, on the English market. We should make every effort from now on to place our goods on the market to the best advantage and to gain and retain goodwill there for the Irish people. We have many friends over there who would be only delighted to get fresh food from the farms of Ireland; they have not been able to get it in the past under an Irish label. I sincerely hope that practical steps will now be taken to ensure that situation will not continue much longer, that instead Irish produce will be sold under an Irish label and that we as the Irish people will be proud of our produce.

Mr. Finucane

I wish to second the motion. At the present time I think everybody realises the importance of agriculture. We cannot lay too much stress on this industry, as it is from agriculture we must get the necessary revenue to prevent our whole financial structure from collapsing.

Every man, woman and child, whether living in city, town or country, depends for a standard of living on the Irish farmer's ability to export profitably. Anyone who knows anything about the livestock trade at present knows that cattle prices were never as bad as they are now. It is impossible to sell young cattle; as a matter of fact it is hard to sell any kind of cattle. If the small farmer is to be saved there should be a long term policy and prices must be fixed for the produce he is selling.

The marketing of all our agricultural produce should be completely reorganised. I know that is easier said than done but there should be some way of overcoming the difficulty. This is purely an agricultural country and if agriculture is flourishing all sections of the community are prospering. More money is in circulation; the shopkeepers, merchants and other sections benefit directly or indirectly.

I should also like to stress the importance of the dairying industry. Our cattle exports depend solely on the dairying industry and the number of cows maintained by dairy farmers. It is absolutely essential that the dairy farmer should be given every possible encouragement so as to ensure that line of production will be maintained and now, more so than ever, the clearing out of T.B. herds and the extra cost of replacements surely justifies an increase in the price of milk. If the dairy farmer goes out of production we shall have fewer cattle for export. That would have a serious effect on our national income.

I am sure there is something wrong with the system of grading pigs and the Government should have the whole system reviewed as pig prices are not very attractive at the moment.

The farmer has to meet increased costs both in regard to his home and his way of living. He has to meet increased rates and increased expenses in regard to his own family. The day is gone when the farmer's son was prepared to stay at home and work for nothing. In my opinion this was the main reason for the flight from the land. It is a national loss that boys and girls should have to emigrate and give their services to another country. Farmers in other countries are protected and I see no reason why the farmers here could not get similar protection.

Mr. Blowick

This motion is very appropriate at present. Although it has been a fairly long time on the Order Paper, strangely enough it is just as appropriate as when it was put down, perhaps even more so. I often wonder if the Government are alive to the situation in rural areas. Were it not that I know the rules of the House would not allow it I should like to bring in something equally as important as the subject dealt with in this motion and that is the wholesale unemployment in rural areas. However, I shall deal with the motion as it is.

Mr. Moher

The Deputy will be able to come around it.

Mr. Blowick

No, I shall not seek to do that because even if I succeeded I believe it would be a complete waste of time talking to the present Government to try to bring home to them what the position is. Farming at present is in a very dangerous condition due to the complete failure of the Government to provide either a market or a fixed minimum price for Irish produce.

There is now wholesale desolation, particularly in the case of small farms that were thrifty and thriving units a very short time ago. I said here recently that the £12 valuation was a thing of the past because the income of such a holding under the management of this Government is insufficient to support a family. As I told the House on that occasion, a holding of £12 valuation or even £20 valuation is only a hovel for a bachelor or a pensioner.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The motion relates to the dairy and cattle industries and the question of price and marketing.

Mr. Blowick

I am trying to deal with both those matters. Due to the shocking condition of the dairy and cattle industries, the small holding is a thing of the past. The only fault I find with this motion is that it is not broad enough or severe enough to meet the present situation.

Mr. Corry

The Deputy should put a motion down.

Mr. Blowick

I notice Deputy Corry did not put one down. I have no time for Deputy Corry. I remember a very long time ago Deputy Corry describing the small farmers as hen roosters, a most contemptuous term to apply to small farmers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not discussing the question of small farmers. We are discussing the motion in the name of Deputy Wycherley.

Mr. Blowick

Does the serious position of the dairy and cattle industries not affect the small farmer more than the big farmer?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would ask the Deputy to keep to the terms of the motion as set out on the Order Paper.

Mr. Blowick

There is a very strange situation. The farmers were asked to increase their production which they have done without any help from the Government. What has been the result? Not alone has there been a disastrous drop in prices but the very market which seemed to be always there to absorb any agricultural surplus has vanished. I often wonder whether it is the fixed policy of this Government to squeeze the smaller elements of the agricultural community out of their holdings and force them to emigrate. That is what is happening, anyhow.

To support my arguments, I shall quote certain figures. In 1959, there were 166,000 less cattle exported than in 1958 and the drop in the value was £8,438,000. I want to ask the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, who has a very good knowledge of rural problems: what industries in this country could bear, in one year, such a deadly wallop as a loss of £8,438,000? We could confine this motion to that aspect alone of the agricultural industry. I have not the figures for 1960 but I suppose the loss would be in the region of £10,000,000.

I hope the Minister for Agriculture will be here in time to reply to this motion. I should like him to tell us what steps the Government are taking to find a market for the increased agricultural produce the farmers have produced at the request of the Government, or what steps they intend to take to recompense the farmers for the care they have taken and the capital they have put into this increased production. The Government cannot be wholly blind to what is happening in the rural areas. There are much more prominent and authoritative voices than mine deploring the abandonment of the backward areas. I rise to add my voice, little weight as it will carry with the Government, to those other voices that are deploring this gradual crushing of the small farmers.

It seems to be the settled policy of the Government, as far as these people are concerned whose fathers and grandfathers put up such a desperate struggle to own their land and their farms, to squeeze them out of their holdings and to suggest that the sooner they go to Birmingham, Coventry, Leeds and London, the better for all concerned and the sooner we have a nation of big ranchers who will be able to carry on without any help——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The question of ranchers does not arise. The motion deals with the question of the dairy and cattle industries and the question of price and marketing.

Mr. Moher

That is his election address.

Mr. Blowick

If I confine my speech to asking the Government to provide a market and a price, my speech could be made in two sentences. I want to support my arguments with statistics from Government publications. A serious situation is arising in regard to the balance of payments, particularly with Britain. There is a very serious excess which ran to £78,200,000 in 1959-60 and which ran to £81,000,000 between December, 1958, and December, 1959. We have the means of taking a big slice off that import excess or imbalance of trade with Britain. The produce is here but we cannot send it across. There are certain sections of our people who are over-buying and creating this excess of imports. On the other hand, the farmers have been asked to increase production but cattle, sheep, pigs and other livestock and articles of food are left on their hands. There is no market for these goods, nor is the slightest attempt being made to get a market for them. I cannot see any future for the holdings up to £15 valuation or £20 valuation, if the policy of the Government is that the best and most economic form of agriculture can be conducted by a country of big farmers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The question of the size of the farm does not arise on this motion. As I have already pointed out, the motion deals with the dairy and cattle industries and the question of price and marketing.

Mr. Blowick

Dairying and cattle are the two principal props——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is getting far away from the motion.

Mr. Blowick

Dairying and cattle are the two principal props of our economy. Some areas go in for dairying and others for cattle. I am trying to bring home to the Government that the drop in the number of cattle exported, to the tune of almost £8½ million last year, has been a very serious blow to the farmers but particularly to the small farmers. Everybody knows the man with the 200 acres is better able to meet a wallop than the man with the 20 or 30 acres. I am more concerned with the effect on the small farmers of the Government's failure to find a market for cattle. I am trying to point out what is happening as a result of their failure to find a market.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has already pointed that out on at least three occasions, and repetition is not in order.

Mr. Blowick

I think it is a scandal and a disgrace that this situation should exist under a native Government. It was bad enough to have that situation under a foreign Government. Some people on that side of the House would no doubt advocate taking out guns to remedy the situation. Whatever Minister replies, I should like him to explain what the Government propose to do about the serious drop in the exports of live cattle which I have mentioned, 166,000 less in 1959 than in 1958, and I suppose there will be the same number less again this year. Even though there are supposed to be between 320,000 and 330,000 farmers, big and small, in the country, a blow of £8,000,000 per year along with the increased cost of living is more than they can survive.

I shall not deal any further with the motion beyond saying that even though it has been some time on the Order Paper, it is still as appropriate as ever. The Taoiseach told us tonight that the Government are bringing in a Bill to concede the terms of this motion which we are debating. If so, they are taking a step in the right direction, even though it is rather late and we have lost whole families in the meantime. When the Bill appears, we shall, of course, have more to say on it. In the meantime, the wholesale emigration brought about by their failure to produce the market for the agricultural produce they begged farmers to produce when they first came into office three years ago is a desperate indictment of the Government.

Mr. Corry

This motion, I believe, is a fairly good one but I do not accept the figures given by Deputy Wycherley or the statements he made. If Deputy Wycherley will go to the trouble of visiting the Library and picking up a little book known as Trade Statistics, he will find in regard to all the noise he is making about selling cattle on the hoof that there are cattle which have to be sent out on the hoof. Surely he will admit that there are ordinary store cattle and breeding cattle, of which there are pretty considerable numbers, with which we are doing a pretty good trade.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Hear, hear—Gloria in excelsis.

Mr. Corry

I should like to draw his attention to Trade Statistics for December, 1959. He will find there that the total export of dead beef was of a value of £10,452,000. That is a pretty hefty sum for dead beef. Canned beef made £2,273,000, so that there was a sum of over £12½ million for both types of dead beef. The mutton and lamb trade made £1½ million and there was £175,000 worth of pork. There was £1,255,000 worth of poultry; £5,400,000 worth of bacon and £389,000 worth of ham. A total of well over £21,000,000 was made from dead animals from this country from across the water in Britain.

We turn to the position in the dairy industry and we find that dairy produce exports brought in £1,899,406. Chocolate crumb—despite the absolute silence of my dearly beloved friend, Deputy Blowick when he was a member of the inter-Party Government and when the British imposed a levy of £16 a ton on our chocolate crumb —made £5,030,000 last year and that was made from a pretty considerable quantity of milk from our dairy cattle. I can assure Deputy Wycherley that with the work which the Minister for Industry and Commerce and our negotiating committee in Britain are doing for the abolition of that levy, that figure will probably be increased next year by, please God, another couple of million pounds. Undoubtedly there is a good opening and a good market there for getting rid of large quantities of our surplus milk.

Mr. Wycherley

I am very glad to hear it.

Mr. Corry

It is no use saying that we are not alive to these problems when men like Deputy Blowick, had not got the slightest worry about such matters, when in office. It did not trouble him at all and he had no interest in it. He had no interest in the beet growers of his neighbouring county Galway. I am not going to speak about the interest shown in the beet growers of county Mayo because there are none there. The Government did put up a factory at their doorstep for the purpose of giving them a decent market for their produce, but Deputy Blowick did not make the slightest attempt to protect that market. We had Deputy Dillon's statement here three months ago that during the period that that levy was in operation, killing the export of our surplus milk——

Mr. O'Sullivan

On a point of order, Sir. While Deputy Blowick and others were speaking, the Leas-Cheann Comhairle rigidly held the discussion to what was in the motion. I do not mind Deputy Corry traversing the field which he is now traversing as long as the rest of us can do it, but the terms of the motion do not cover what the Deputy is speaking about.

An Ceann Comhairle

Well, the fact that Deputy Corry may be disorderly does not allow anybody else to be disorderly.

Mr. Blowick

Does that mean that the Chair metes out one kind of treatment to me and another to Deputy Corry?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not understand that. I said that if Deputy Corry was disorderly, it would not justfy anybody else being disorderly.

Mr. Blowick

I was not permitted even to mention small farmers. I tried to mention beef and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle would not allow me.

An Ceann Comhairle

I shall endeavour to keep Deputy Corry to the motion.

Mr. Blowick

I feel that there is one kind of treatment for me and another for Deputy Corry.

Mr. Corry

The motion reads

"That in view of the serious position of the dairy and cattle industries Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the whole question of prices and marketing should be reviewed."

Deputy Blowick had to be ruled out of order nine or ten times. I have no intention of being ruled out of order. I am dealing with a market of £5,030,699. Last year, we sold in England some 2,000,000 gallons of milk. I think I am quite in order in dealing with the reason why there were not 10,000,000 or 7,000,000 or 8,000,000 gallons of milk sold in that market last year. The reason was the levy placed on us through the negligence of the inter-Party Government in 1956. Deputy Blowick was then a member of that Government and I suggest that despite the disorderly remarks a while ago, I am absolutely in order in dealing with that position on this motion.

I should like to assure Deputy Wycherley and Deputy Finucane that the Government have taken up that condition of affairs, as they can find from the assurances given to me here by the Minister for Industry and Commerce during the past six months. That market is being actively pursued and we shall have a largely increased market for our surplus milk next year through chocolate crumb as soon as that iniquitous levy is removed.

That is briefly the position of affairs. No Government can be held responsible for the price we get for our produce in another country. A Government can be held responsible for the price we get in our own country. They cannot be held responsible for the price we get in another country, provided they are not guilty of the negligence of which the inter-Party Government were guilty in respect of our export market for chocolate crumb and sugar.

In Britain, bovine T.B. has been wiped out. The condition of affairs here has very largely interfered with and crippled our market in cattle across the water. It will continue to affect it until such time as we are in as clear a position in regard to bovine T.B. as Great Britain is. That is a fair point of view.

I admit immediately that in regard to the export of live cattle, the market has been bad and I am afraid it will continue to be bad for some time. I cannot see any great hope of improvement. Unfortunately, this debate is confined to the dairy and cattle industry. In the dairy industry, considerable strides have been made and enormous sums of money have to be found by the Government for the eradication of bovine T.B. Whether it is spent in the best possible manner or not is another matter that could be considered.

Mr. Blowick

Is it in order for the Deputy to refer to bovine T.B.?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a contributory factor.

Mr. Blowick

I tried to introduce contributory factors and my whole speech was punctuated by rulings from the Chair.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Corry, on the motion,

Mr. Corry

The expenditure of some millions of pounds in that direction by the Government is hastening the day when we shall again be in a position to have a clear entry of our cattle into Britain without that bar against them. We must await that period.

Considerable advances are being made in every line of agriculture and in better marketing of our goods. I do not wish to go into that here, but Deputy Wycherley and Deputy O'Sullivan were in Mallow close on a month ago and saw another big factory going up there which will help the farmers very considerably. Undoubtedly a very considerable export trade will be developed. The extensive type of farming that it will call for will give a great opportunity to the smallholder. The same thing has happened in Deputy Wycherley's constituency. I do not know whether he has much interest in it or not. It has happened there during the past 12 months and advances have been made on practically the same lines. I do not see any reason for the alarm that has been shown here. Perhaps our marketing conditions can be improved.

There is one thing militating against us that the Government should take in hand. I refer to freight and transport costs. There have been general complaints about these. Transport costs, especially cross-channel freight rates, will militate very seriously against our sales in the British market. I suggest that the Government should have an investigation into charges from Continental countries to Britain as compared with cross-channel charges. They will get an eye-opener and will find some means of dealing with the British shipping companies engaged in the cross-channel trade and that spend only about five shillings in this country. I had occasion to take up with these people the question of leaving some of their money here, even for the repair of ships. I got the deaf ear. If the Government examine the question of freight rates, they will find that the rate from Denmark to Britain is about 50 per cent. of the rate from Cork to Liverpool. They will find that and having found that, they can take steps to deal with the matter in a far better way.

Unfortunately, this motion is not broad enough to give us an opportunity of dealing with the wider range of agricultural policy and agricultural conditions, but I now live in the hope that Deputy Blowick will put down a motion that will cover a wider range and thus give us an opportunity of dealing with the matter in that way.

Mr. O'Sullivan

When the motion was moved this evening, the Taoiseach informed the House that the Government proposed, within the next week, to bring in a Bill to deal with milk marketing and that, consequently, it might be well if the Deputies moving the motion saw fit to defer it in consequence. He must not have given enough attention to the fact that this motion also deals with conditions in the cattle industry and that in the allied categories included in the motion anything that may be proposed to be done next week would not cover what is, in fact, mentioned in the terms of the motion.

Speaking on behalf of the Fine Gael Party, I can say we support this motion. In fact we must say that it is phrased in a very mild fashion. It merely asks the Government that in view of the serious position of the dairy and cattle industries Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the whole question of prices and marketing should be reviewed.

There is nothing extremely demanding in the terms of the motion. It is one that the Government would do well to accept because there is no exaggeration in it. There is no exaggeration in that motion when it describes the position of the dairying and cattle industries as serious. Anybody familiar with conditions in the rural parts today are quite aware of the serious position in which very many people dependent on those industries for their living are at this moment.

Some years have passed since the Government announced they were about to do something in regard to the marketing of our agricultural produce. It is well to recall that at the time the Government assumed office they declared they were somewhat embarrassed by the surpluses in agricultural produce left behind by the previous Government, so that all this Government had to do to ensure that the level of production would continue or, in fact, that the rate of production would be increased, was to find the markets. They guaranteed the farmers that there would be no loss in their income; that they need not worry and that if they worked harder and produced more prices would not drastically fall. Instead of that occurring, and despite the fact that this £250,000 was presented to the people with a flourish of trumpets as something which it was the intention of the Government to spend without delay in the discovery and the development of these new markets, we find from the information we could receive by tabling Parliamentary questions that only a very negligible amount of that money was spent, even though it was intimated at that time that it was merely an instalment of what was to be spent towards this very laudable purpose.

There is no indication there that the Government were serious in their flamboyant statements at the time relating to the benefits that would acrue from the voting of these moneys. If the Government had to come to the House with a supplementary estimate to get more money, because they found this was not sufficient, they would get the utmost cooperation from all parts of the House. Far from that occurring, we find the demand was not enough to absorb the moneys voted such a long time ago. Consequently, we may well allege that if marketing conditions are not as good today as they should be, there has been considerable negligence. We allege, and allege forcibly because we believe what we say, that much time was wasted and great opportunities lost because we can recall that the attention of this House was diverted for a year and a half to a subject demanding the attention of the country—the Government's aim and object of changing the electoral system.

While we were engaged in that pursuit, our competitors on the British market were engaged in pinching from us some of the markets we enjoyed in that country for many, many years. We find that when an Irish deputation went eventually to Britain they did not secure what was intimated by them before they left this country as being a probable result of their efforts in London on that occasion. They came back very much deflated and very much different from the people who had with such confidence proclaimed that they were about to secure for the basic producers of this country something of great value. Therefore, we say that opportunities—golden opportunities—were lost during those wasted years.

We would not be in this position now if the Government had applied themselves at that time to what was their very first duty—to honour the guarantee to those who had accepted the call of the Government to work hard and produce more. But having done so, their profits were very much reduced because of the loss in price due to the incapacity of those directing Government policy to secure for them the markets which would absorb the outflow from that increased production.

In recent years there have been formidable changes in the taste of food consumers in Britain—changes to which it would be well we were alive and quick enough to avail of. We realise that in very many towns in Britain today the butcher's shop, as we know it in this country, is a thing of the past. There is now a great chance for us to avail of the opportunities presented there to supply those markets with a type of packaged meat which they now want to buy in their shops. There is an opportunity for development in the matter of producing our prime beef such as did not exist in the past but it is necessary that we should, without delay, apply ourselves to a proper examination of what could be done in that respect.

I was interested in and extremely amused by the strictures Deputy Corry administered to Deputy Wycherley because Deputy Wycherley had ignored the importance of our store cattle exports to Britain. It is always said that there is nothing to beat the new convert. When one hears this emanating from the benches opposite, when one looks back on their history in glorying at the death of the British market, saying it was gone and gone for ever and that it took a hundred years to build but would take only ten days to destroy, one can only say: "Thanks be to God, the day has come when there is unanimity in the House in relation to the importance of that market."

Deputy Corry also spoke on the question of the importance of our having sufficient and suitable transport to carry our goods to Britain. He fails to recall that a Minister—he is still a Minister—at one time said that it would be well for this country if all their ships were at the bottom of the sea. At any rate, we have progressed from that. He advanced an idea with which we cannot disagree, that anything that can be done should be done to ensure that shipping facilities equal to those available to our competitors and competitive rates will be available to our exporters, both industrial and agricultural. Those are points on which there appears to be no disagreement.

It is true, as Deputy Corry said, that the Government cannot fix the prices obtainable for goods which we export to foreign markets, but there are other aspects of the management of agriculture on which the Government could take effective action, but on which, quite often, through neglect and inattention, matters arise which have a very detrimental effect on our costs of production. It should be the duty of the Government to protect industry against those rising costs, all of which, I am afraid, have a very detrimental effect, and squeeze us out of competition, because that competition is so keen on many of the foreign markets.

Due to the general policy of the Government, we find that the agricultural community over the past four years have suffered considerable increases in their costs of production. Like other members of the community, the farmers are very seriously affected, and they have had to face vast difficulties, by reason of the drastic increases in the cost of living. They find, too, that they have to pay more for the necessaries of life and, at the same time, they have had to find money for increased wages and salaries in order to make it possible for other sections of the community to meet the impact of the increased cost of living. We find, from Government statistics, that, far from receiving an increased income, they have had to meet the hardships imposed by the increased cost of living.

In fact, the people mentioned in this motion have suffered a considerable reduction in their incomes and, at the same time, were also faced with what is probably the greatest problem since the economic war with which Irish farmers have had to contend, the elimination of bovine tuberculosis. It is only now, and from now on, that we shall realise that three years were unfortunately wasted before that scheme was started. It is now being forcibly brought home to our people the colossal problem that imposes on the country. Its impact should be understood by those who are not engaged in farming and particularly by those who are not engaged in the dairying industry because of the action necessary if we are to eliminate that disease, having regard to the loss of income and the expenditure involved.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

Mr. O'Sullivan

I was referring to the fact that the agricultural community had been called upon to bear the additional expenditure involved in the elimination of bovine tuberculosis and had also to bear the increased costs imposed by other events in recent years. It is the duty of the Government to ensure that anything that could possibly add to the cost of production in that industry be mitigated to the greatest possible extent.

Deputy Corry dealt with the problem of freight and transport and the necessity for ensuring that we could transport our agricultural goods to other countries at the lowest possible rates. Of course, incidental to that is the cost of transporting our agricultural goods from the point of production to the ports from which they are despatched. The Minister should be alive to the fact that if the intention of one of his colleagues is carried to fruition, at the fairs in Bandon, the cattle markets in Clonakilty, Skibbereen, and Bantry, there will be an additional charge of £1 per head on the price of the beasts presented for sale—if his colleague continues with his intention of wiping out the rail system in that area.

I agree with Deputy Corry when he said that the question of transport and freight charges has an important bearing on the incomes of our Irish farmers. The increased costs of production on the agricultural community in south and west Cork make it very difficult for them to produce beasts at prices at which we would wish to see them produced in order that they could make more profit when presented for sale on the markets of various countries.

It is also well to record that, in the past four years, there has been a great increase in the rates demand upon the agricultural community. That is another charge which has to be met by increased profits by farmers who are suffering a serious lowering of their standard of living and, so far as Cork county is concerned, that situation will be aggravated by 10 per cent. in the next year or two.

It is vital that the people in those areas should be protected from such additional imposts. They have a most serious effect at the moment on conditions in cattle and dairying areas, in view of the fact that store cattle today are producing such little profit for the people who rear them. That has a big bearing on the dairying industry, because it means the farmers will require more for their milk if they get less for their stores and young cattle. It is true that people who bought stores and held them for a considerable time found, unfortunately, that they had to dispose of them in many cases for less than they paid for them. This instability in the cattle industry is a very disturbing factor, and one to which the Government, in the development of the markets in which we hope they are engaged, should give due attention.

Other speakers referred to the difficulties encountered in relation to the sale of milk products and have asserted that butter seemed to be the most uneconomic outlet for milk delivered to creameries. It is true that for a time there was a much better market for milk that was made into Irish creamery butter, but, unfortunately, due to the very steep increase in the price of butter it was made impossible for many of our people to consume it in the quantities in which they consumed it in the past. We are now forced to find other markets for milk which formerly we were able to dispose of to our people in the form of good creamery butter.

The development of the manufacture of cheese should commend itself to the Minister. With the increased standard of living, and so on, in the neighbouring island, it might be expected that there would be a diminution in the market for cheese. Far from that occurring, there is a growing market in Britain for cheese. It would be well to ensure that everything possible is done to encourage the establishment of more factories in this country to produce cheese for export.

It is a pity that, as a people, we do not use more cheese. Only on rare occasions is cheese presented as an item on the hotel menu. It would be well if its consumption were encouraged and if the Minister for Agriculture were more active in promoting an increased market in this country not alone for fresh milk but for other products such as cheese manufactured from milk delivered at creameries. That also would help the marketing of this commodity.

Continuity of supply does not present the problem it did over a decade ago. Because of the steps taken to encourage the growth of earlier and later grass, the increased supplies of milk are attributable more to the extension of the grass season than to any other factor. Pending the solution of marketing problems, it would be well if the Minister discouraged the extension of creameries to other parts of the country until such time as a solution is found to the problem affecting the creamery industry in the Munster area.

The availability of credit to the agricultural community is not now a problem. It appears possible to secure credit but there is an obligation on the Government to ensure that the people who obtain such credit are put in a position to pay the interest and capital involved. The situation would be far worse than formerly if the freeing of credit resulted in embarrassment for people who felt they could utilise credit to their benefit and that of the community.

A point worth noting is that of all the industries under the various agricultural heads in this country the activity which gives the most employment today is dairying and animal husbandry. The day is gone when it was felt this industry called for the least amount of labour. Today it is far ahead of wheat-growing or any other agricultural pursuit in the numbers engaged all the year round. It is never seasonal. It demands the employment of very considerable numbers of men and women to look after animals which must be cared for on Christmas Day in the same way as in mid-Summer. Consequently, any reversal in the conditions of people engaged in that industry would merely accentuate the present drift from the land. It is necessary that that be taken into account in determining that the utmost priority be given to securing markets for the sale of the produce mentioned in this motion.

A new development in the past few years has made it more difficult for farmers' sons who work on their parent's farm to acquire land. It is something the Government and future Governments must watch carefully. They must preserve for the families of farmers whatever land comes on the market.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It does not seem to be relevant to the motion.

Mr. O'Sullivan

It is relevant in so far as the farmers engaged in the dairying industry or in the production of cattle have to set aside a certain amount of money every year to give a fortune to a son or daughter or to buy an additional holding for a son or a daughter who has worked many years on the farm without a wage.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The motion seeks that prices and marketing should be reviewed.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Unless there is a curtailment of the influx of foreigners who are buying up land, our farmers will need more money to purchase holdings for their sons and daughters who at the moment have no living——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It does not arise on the motion which is very specific.

Mr. O'Sullivan

I have made the point. It is desirable, in that situation, that nothing should happen to cause a reduction in the income of these people.

Deputy Corry made some remarks with which we are in agreement and other remarks about which we cannot be enthusiastic. He tells us that certain omissions of the previous Government had not been rectified after being actively pursued by the present Government for a period of four years. I do not know what he means by actively pursuing something, if there is nothing to be seen for the active pursuit after four years. We must infer that, whatever the omission, it cannot be easy to rectify. We shall wait, I hope not too long, to see the outcome of the active pursuit.

The House could well accept this motion which asks the Government to recognise the serious position in the dairy and cattle industries. It also requires them to give full and immediate attention to the serious plight of the people concerned and to take action to ensure something is done in the near future to save them and lift them out of the danger in which they find themselves.

Mr. Moloney

I am largely in agreement with Deputy Corry's suggestion as to how this motion should be received. It has been tabled for many months and comes forward at an opportune time. Today, the Taoiseach announced that legislation will be introduced shortly to deal with the question of marketing. The Opposition speakers have more or less charged the Government with not fulfilling their duty in that connection and allege that the Government have taken no effective action up to now, but I am quite sure it cannot be suggested that the tabling of this motion has in any way influenced the Government in arriving at the decision they have made in regard to the legislative proposals that are to come before the House shortly.

It must be obvious to everybody that the Fianna Fáil Party, before taking office, had considered that marketing reorganisation was essential. The Party were in power only a month or two before the introduction of the 1957 Budget but in that Budget, the Minister for Finance announced he was allocating £250,000 for the purpose of improving the marketing of agricultural produce, covering all species of agricultural produce marketed under Government auspices. The Government at that time acted without any great public demand being made for such a step and that step was followed up very effectively some six or seven months later when the late Senator Moylan, then Minister for Agriculture, appointed an advisory committee, with very comprehensive terms of reference, to deal with this problem in December, 1957.

I believe it has been accepted in all quarters of the agricultural industry, particularly in the dairying end, that it could do with a major overhaul. In other agricultural countries, such an overhaul has been attempted, with some success in most of them, and the fact that it has not been attempted up to now in this country is, in my opinion, something for which no Government could be held responsible. The people engaged in the agricultural industry are very independent and do not like being dictated to by whatever Government are in power, as regards the manner in which they shall do their job. The same thing applies to industry in general. It is not easy to get people to take kindly to Government initiative instructing them how to carry on their business and I can well appreciate why any Government should be somewhat reluctant to go into such a wide field without the necessity of doing so being absolutely apparent.

At all events, the Government did take that action. The committee which was established proceeded to tackle its work with all possible haste, and the White Paper which the Minister issued in December, 1959, entitled The Export Marketing of Irish Agricultural Produce demonstrated that the committee did make a most exhaustive inquiry and produced a pretty comprehensive report in the shortest possible time. Since then, the Minister has been engaged in preparing his legislative proposals founded on the committee's report to establish the necessary marketing organisations.

However, the fact that organisations or boards of this character are to be established is not in itself the complete solution of the problem. Government aid to enable agricultural produce to be marketed at economic prices is a good stimulant, but, to have a healthy agricultural trend, it is desirable, as far as is possible, that Government aids, particularly those provided through taxation, should be dispensed with.

The Minister's proposals will be coming before the House shortly and for that reason I am sure most Deputies are not anxious to go into too detailed a discussion on the motion now before the House. The motion sets out that in view of the serious position of the dairying and cattle industry, Dáil Eireann is of opinion that the whole question of prices and marketing should be reviewed. Now, at the time the motion was tabled some people may have held the view that a serious position existed in the dairy and cattle industry, and Opposition speakers, with great difficulty, have tried to make the case that at present the price of cattle is so depressed that in some instances store cattle are being sold at less than what they cost their owners a year or a year and a half ago.

I am not a farmer but I keep store cattle for eight or nine months of the year and that has not been my experience, or the experience of a number of other people with whom I am acquainted and who are engaged in that business. In regard to cattle the present difficulty appears to be that of fodder and, while prices could be more satisfactory, it is not true to say that people who own store cattle have to sell them at a loss, as stated by Deputy O'Sullivan.

Mr. Beirne

Deputy Moloney is entirely wrong.

Mr. Moloney

Opposition speakers also dealt with the levy imposed on butter a couple of years ago, but I think the Minister gave a very good reason why the levy had to be imposed at that time, and he also gave an undertaking that if the export difficulties which gave rise to its introduction were solved, then the levy would be withdrawn. Happily, the difficulties ended and I am glad to say that the Minister fulfilled his promise without undue delay and, as far as I know, at present, butter is not subject to that levy and is unlikely to be subjected to it in the foreseeable future. I do not want to go into too much detail in this regard just now as the Minister's new legislative proposals dealing with this very important matter will be coming before the House very shortly.

Mr. Beirne

Tell us what they are? We do not know what they are.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Moloney is in possession.

Mr. Beirne

Deputy Moloney knows what the proposals are but we do not.

Mr. Donnellan

He does not know.

Mr. Moloney

We shall know tomorrow.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy might be allowed to make his speech.

Mr. Moloney

I hope these proposals will have the serious consideration of the House, and that what the Minister is attempting to do will not be misrepresented. The reorganisation expected is absolutely necessary, and it is important that it should be implemented in the shortest possible time. The Minister should not delay, therefore, and should select a board representative of all those competent to deal with marketing.

Suggestions have come from all sides in regard to the steps we should take to stimulate our exports abroad. Such suggestions have been made for many years and have been examined, I am sure, by Ministers both of this and previous Governments. To my mind, however, the most important factor is that we have no effective selling agencies abroad. I have discussed this with persons conversant with these markets and I have been told, time and again, that there is not much point in having active representatives abroad, if we are not in a position to keep up continuity of supply. That has been a defect and we shall have to remedy it if we are to compete with similar organisations in other countries. I hope that matter will be dealt with by whatever body is appointed to explore markets for our agricultural produce. There is little more I can say at this stage, but I am glad to have had this opportunity of making those few points.

Mr. Donnellan

The last speaker said he had not very much more to say. In my opinion, he had nothing at all to say. He told us about certain boards and commissions. Speaking as a tenant farmer, I say: "To hell with those boards and commissions." Too much has been spent in that way; and if the Government think our problems can be solved by handing them over to such boards and commissions, I am afraid they are too late.

Presumably Deputy Corry was speaking on behalf of Fianna Fáil— at least at by-elections he says he is— and listening to him I was reminded of an old rhyme I used to hear when going to school:

The devil when sick

The devil a saint would be.

The devil when well

The devil a saint is he!

When Deputy Corry was on this side of the House, everything in agriculture was wrong, no matter how right it was; but when Deputy Corry is on that side of the House, everything is right, no matter how wrong it is. Deputy Corry's heart bled for the small farmer and the tenant farmer, but I remember when he described him here as the "hen rooster" who did not deserve any consideration. I remember the late Deputy Beegan standing up on behalf of Fianna Fáil and dissociating himself completely from the statements of Deputy Corry.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This does not seem to be relevant to the motion.

Mr. Donnellan

I am concerned chiefly with that portion of the motion which refers to the cattle trade. The Minister heard the last speaker, a Kerryman, say he did not think the cattle trade was in such a bad position. I am sure the Minister is not so much up in the air—he never was indeed— and that he realises the position as far as the tenant farmers of Cavan are concerned, as well as those of Galway, Kerry, Donegal, Cork, Mayo and portion of Roscommon. I am sure he realises that they find it impossible to sell the few cattle they have at the moment.

I know the position of the tenant farmer who has a cow or two. Milk production is not in his line. He bought a calf or two extra last year. He paid up to £24 or £25 and in some cases £28. He reared that calf, hoping that at this time of the year he would have him for sale. The position today is that he cannot sell that beast at all, and the calf that cost him from £24 to £26 this time last year is not worth that money today. Nevertheless, that tenant farmer has to meet higher rates and the higher cost of living, and the position is that these people are leaving at present.

We are always told that something is coming tomorrow or the day after. As far as Fianna Fáil are concerned, something is always coming but nothing ever arrives. We are told that something will be done to help the milk producer, and I suppose he requires assistance very badly, but his plight is no worse than that of the tenant farmer who produces a few cattle and sheep. What an extraordinary change when we hear Deputy Corry talking about markets in England! We also heard from Deputy Moloney about our cattle trade, about what is to be done—something to come. Do we not remember the time when we were told that it was a good job for us that that market was gone? That was preached once by Fianna Fáil. That market is nearly gone now. Some days ago, the Taoiseach in reply to a question here said that things were not bad at all. I am referring to this because I believe that the tenant farmers who produce a few cattle, who produce milk for the creameries, are the foundation of the State and the position in which they are today is reflected in every other industry in the country. They are the people that make the new money in this country and once they go down, as has happened now, it is reflected in the position of every other section of the community.

As I have explained, their position was never worse. If the Minister went around the country, he would soon know that the position is not as Deputy Moloney or Deputy Corry represented it. I believe that the Minister, as a good farmer, knows the position. I would ask him to throw his mind back to the time when he was on this side of the House and Deputy Dillon was Minister for Agriculture. Deputy Dillon needs no bouquets from me, nor will he get them, but he took this matter in hands, went across to England as Minister and brought back the 1948 Agreement which every tenant farmer in Ireland thinks was the best thing ever done by a Minister for Agriculture for this country.

There was a time when that Agreement was about to be renewed during the term of office of the present Government but, for a year and a half, when the Government should have been concerned with that Agreement they were trying to change the system of election so that they would always be in power——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not relevant.

Mr. Donnellan

I am pointing out the time they lost and how, instead of using it for a helpful purpose, they went out on a particular line of political action. They neglected to look after our Agreement with that despised market on which we now depend on and on which we always had to depend——

Mr. Donegan

That is the tragedy.

Mr. Donnellan

Of course Deputy Moher had to butt in. He is a curate with Deputy Corry in Cork and he will not let Deputy Corry get away with it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is getting away from the Motion.

Mr. Corish

In fairness to him, it was not Deputy Moher at all.

Mr. Donnellan

If so, I am sorry.

Mr. Moher

I am a good lightning conductor.

Mr. Donnellan

What was that?

Mr. Corish

It was Deputy Moher that time.

Mr. Donnellan

I appeal to the Minister to consider the position of the small tenant farmer. He has to pay more than his share for many of the subsidies he is getting, subsidies that are more benefit to the other type of farmer, the rancher. I would ask the Minister to consider this motion seriously, knowing that the two Deputies who have tabled it are sincere in putting it down. It has been quite a long time on the Order Paper but it is even more necessary now than when it was first put down. I ask the Minister and the Government to accept it and to get to work as quickly as possible so that something can be done to save the small tenant farmers.

Mr. Russell

My first reason for speaking is to pay a tribute to the farmers and particularly to the small farmers, especially the small dairy farmers with whom I am personally more concerned in my own area. It is a remarkable tribute to their tenacity that they have managed to survive the vicissitudes of various Governments over the past 40 years. I do not want to labour the political side of this motion, to which several references have been made tonight, but it is an historic fact that over the past 30 years, the wheel has turned complete circle and instead of celebrating the fact that the British market is no longer necessary or desirable, we had the Taoiseach himself going to England a few months ago to persuade the British Government that in the interests of the economies of both countries, a practical step would be to integrate these economies.

Mr. Dillon

That is becoming a very popular policy.

Mr. Russell

The remarkable fact is that when we should have organised and stabilised our agricultural industry, we lost our opportunity to do so. In the thirties, the opportunity was there and we did not take it. During the war years the opportunity was there for fancy prices because Britain was enmeshed in a world war and paid any prices we asked. We built up the huge external assets that we are still feeding on today. Now that the war is over and circumstances have completely changed, we are facing a very difficult position as regards our agricultural exports not only to England but also to European and other countries.

We are very badly equipped to tackle the problems facing us with the development of the trade groups in Europe. It is well known that the British market is not now nearly as remunerative as it was for years back, and, indeed, in the next 2 to 10 years our farmers will have to face very difficult and competitive conditions for the produce they have been sending to England over the years. With the ten per cent. tariff going off bacon imports into Britain, our farmers and our bacon factories will have to meet severe and highly-organised competition from the long-established and efficient Danish bacon industry. There does not seem to be at present any compensating market anywhere else in the world. That emphasises the fact that the years that have been wasted are now coming home to roost and as a result we are in the really weak position in which we find ourselves today. That is largely due to the fact that we did not take advantage in past years of advantageous markets in Britain and elsewhere.

References have been made to marketing. I can recall that a few months after I came into this House, the Minister for Agriculture spoke about £250,000 that was to be made available as a matter of urgency for the study of marketing conditions. I think I am correct in saying that up to date only a few thousand of that £250,000 has been spent for the purpose for which it was intended.

Debate adjourned.