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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 24 Nov 1960

Vol. 185 No. 2

Private Members' Business. - Dairy and Cattle Industries—Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
"That in view of the serious position of the dairy and cattle industries Dáil Éireann is of opinion that the whole question of price and marketing should be reviewed."— (Deputy Wycherley.)

If any further evidence is required that all is not well with the agricultural sector of our economy, the tables which we received this morning relating to the national income provide food for thought. I notice on page 7, Table 3 which gives the percentage distribution of the national income of the different sectors, that the agricultural share of the national income has gone down as between 1953 and 1959, from 29.4 per cent. to 24.7 per cent. I appreciate that there are certain reasons for that, particularly in the past year or two when the two bad harvests contributed to this decline, but taking the picture for a particular seven year period, I think we certainly have reason to take a close look at the rewards which the agricultural sector of the community get for their contribution to the national economy.

I do not regard subsidies as an ideal solution. The most that can be said for them is that they are a part solution of the problem but in regard to certain products of the farmers, I think subsidies must continue to be paid, particularly in respect of the dairying industry which is the keystone of the entire agricultural industry. The rest of the country must face the fact that the dairy farmer is in a unique position in many regards and that he must be maintained at the expense of the community as a whole in the interests of the community as a whole. Meanwhile, every possible effort must be made by the industry itself, with the assistance, the drive and the leadership of the Minister and his Department, to find other and more economic outlets for milk, and particularly for surplus milk, which is a recurring problem.

In that regard, the recent entry of the Condensed Milk Company of Ireland factory at Limerick into this industry is welcome, if somewhat belated. It is a great pity the directors of that concern did not engage in other outlets for milk in the past, such as chocolate crumb. It is senseless economy to send milk out of the greatest milk producing area in the country and its contiguous areas into other areas where these chocolate crumb plants have been situated. However, that is past history. In any future expansion of other outlets for milk the position of Limerick in regard to milk production should receive prior consideration. Certainly the factory at Lansdowne in Limerick is a very valuable centre which should be used to the maximum extent and which certainly has not been used to the maximum extent or potentiality in past years.

I would far prefer that any assistance which the Department gives or intends to give to the agricultural industry would be devoted to lowering costs. Taking the long term view of it, the more sensible farmers would rather produce at prices which would allow them to compete in the outside world, particularly as their traditional market, the British market, to which I referred last night is, for reasons into which we need not go now, partly political and partly economic, decreasing in value. The fact that the British are now spending £250,000,000 a year subsidising their farmers and that our farmers have to compete at those fictitious price levels is some indication of the necessity to look outside the British market for a growing proportion of our export trade.

In that regard the emergent states of the African Continent would appear to offer one outlet that should be pursued with energy by the Minister and his Department. I do not know what plans the Minister has already made for exploiting these new markets. As far as I know, the Minister's Department has made no statement to the effect that it is alive to the potentialities in these countries. We naturally appreciate that the purchasing power of these countries is small now but that will grow and grow rapidly as these States come under the control of their own Governments and when they start pumping capital into the economy to expand it and raise the standard of living of their peoples.

Therefore we would be very well-advised to be the first, or among the first in the field exploiting these new markets. The Middle East and the East should also offer great opportunities for Irish agricultural produce. In saying that, I do not want to be taken as writing off the British market which must continue for many years or possibly for the rest of time to be our main market. We should do far more to exploit the English market. We seem to take absolutely no interest in the agricultural trade shows or fairs held in England. For some reason or other, we have given up having stalls or stands there and we seem to be quite content to market our produce in England under other trade names.

I am sure every Deputy from time to time receives letters from Irish people living in England stating that they cannot get Irish butter, Irish bacon or other Irish products under an Irish trade name or even under the normal words: "Made in the Republic of Ireland". There may be reasons for the practice established in the past and reasons why it should be continued but, if we intend to adopt a positive, aggressive sales policy, we must take our courage in our hands and, whatever the temporary upsets may be, seek our own outlets even if it means going into wholesale and retail trading in England. It is sad from our point of view to see the energetic efforts of the New Zealanders and the Danes to push their products in the British market under national brand names.

Deputies who have spoken before me on this motion have stressed the necessity of marketing generally. I appreciate that the Minister has this in view but I want to join with those who criticised the slow and ineffective progress made to date. If we want to sell anything, whether it be eggs, beef, bacon or butter, we must be far more aggressive in world markets than we have been up to now.

In this regard I do not know of any contact more useful—with all due respect to the numerous boards which have been set up from time to time— than that of the individual manufacturer or groups of manufacturers going over themselves to exploit these markets. I should like to see far more of that done by the agricultural community as well as by the industrial community.

Greater effort should be made in regard to publicity and propaganda. There is a limited amount of that done but there is nothing catchy or attractive about it. More attention should be given to what has now become a world wide tendency in selling and that is publicity in various forms. The publicity content of any items nowadays is enormous compared with even a few years ago. I think it is no exaggeration to say that in some instances the cost of the publicity is at least equal to the value of the article.

I am one of those who always subscribed to the viewpoint that in giving employment industry must make a major contribution, but no industrial development should take place at the expense of agriculture. I have the feeling that, if in the past we have not developed the industrial side of our economy at the expense of agriculture, certainly we have done so at the neglect of agriculture. The two should go hand in hand and our orientation and our thinking must be guided by the fact that our basic national asset is 12,000,000 acres of first-class agricultural land.

An expanding industry associated with an efficient, prosperous agricultural sector is the ideal solution for our economic problems. For years to come there is bound to be migration, even emigration, from the rural areas for historical reasons as well as economic reasons. The only way to adjust that is to ensure that if our people have to migrate from small holdings their migration will be as short as possible and that they will be within reasonable distance of industries based, wherever practicable, on the raw materials the farmer produces himself.

It requires very few words to recommend this motion to the Dáil but this is an occasion on which certain facts should be drawn to the attention of the House. The portion of the national income arising from agriculture has declined from £131.2 millions in 1957 to £116 millions in 1959. The farmers are receiving for what they dispose of off their lands £16 millions a year less than they were getting three years ago, since this Government came into office. Statistically it is all right to say that you may have regard to the varying values of stocks on the land but the rise and fall in the value of stocks on your land does not provide an income for a farmer who has to feed a wife and family day in, day out. His income is controlled by what he can sell and what he gets for it. In terms so expressed, the income of the farmers has declined from £131.2 millions in 1957 to £116 millions in 1959 and over that period these same farmers have been required by this Government to pay 6d. more for the 2-lb. loaf which they have to buy for their families, 10d. more for butter and 40/- more per ten stone of flour for every bag of flour they bring into the house.

I heard a Fianna Fáil Deputy groaning yesterday when someone referred to the small farmers in Roscommon. There are a number of Deputies in this House from the city of Dublin and some of the Eastern counties who do not understand what is happening over a large part of this country. That is that the small farmers in Monaghan Cavan, Donegal, Mayo, Roscommon, Galway, Clare, Kerry, West Limerick and West Cork are being wiped out. The result is that they are migrating in whole families from their holdings because at present they can no longer live. That has happened in the last three years. I have seen—and any Deputy familiar with conditions amongst the small farmers has seen—the price of cattle decline by £10 per dropped calf, from £20 to £10, in the last 18 months. The price of a yearling beast has declined from £40 to about £28 or less and it is on that kind of production that the bulk of the small farmers depend for their existence.

I am told in regard to the dairy farmers that this Government have provided them with one penny a gallon more for creamery milk but nobody adverts to the fact that the annual output of a dairy cow consists of a calf and her milk. There has been a drop of £10 in the price of the calf which represents 2,400 pence and, if she is a 600 gallon cow, that represents a reduction of 4d. a gallon on milk. It means that the producer at present is 3d. a gallon worse off than he was twelve months ago.

It is now nearly 4 years since this Government came into office and, as they boast so frequently, one of the first announcements they then made was that they were going to appropriate £250,000 to study new methods of marketing agriculture production. They are still cogitating on that problem and now, on the eve of a general election, we are told that they are going to have a Bill introduced to establish a milk marketing board. Nobody will see very many results from that this side of the election but of course it will be a good talking point. If this Government meant to do anything, or intended to do anything, or was fit to do anything, they would have done it well before a general election was upon us.

This Government are at present making an effort to feed this country on a diet of fantastic statistics. Figures are juggled and the people are persuaded the national income is booming. Recently I saw a headline in a national newspaper—"Boom, Boom, Boom". Then I went home to some of my neighbours in Mayo and Monaghan and for the first time in my memory in the last 15 years, the impression was made strongly on my mind that they were poor—poor again.

They found it hard to find the money to pay their weekly bills. Those who live in this fairyland of statistics feel they can turn their backs on all that and deal in global figures and ignore the fact that what matters to the average farmer is what he gets for his beast when he brings it to the fair or market place. Judged by that criterion a very large part of the 350,000 farmers living on the land at present are growing poorer every day. It is true that the repercussions of that on the towns and cities may, in some degree, be delayed but nothing is more certain than that if we allow the agriculture community to wither away, as they are doing at present, the whole economic fabric of the country will collapse.

It is no use imagining that there is any substitute, as a foundation for our economic life, for the land and the people who get their living from it. These are the people who today are forgotten and abandoned. There is no Department of State which has so declined in prestige in the eyes of the people as the Department of Agriculture in the last three years. You can say what you like about it—in the past it may have been the subject of controversy—but there were people who esteemed it and people who blamed it. There were people who thought is was too active and people who thought it was interfering with things that should have been left alone, but at least there was pretty general agreement that it was a strong and vital force and that it was concerned as best it could to help the farmers and provide them with some leadership in the direction in which they should travel if they were to have a reasonable standard of living.

Can anyone say that now? Does anyone know what the Department of Agriculture stands for, or what the Minister for Agriculture believes in? The impression created on my mind in any case is that he does not believe in much and that he does not care a damn about any aspect of the industry of the farmers for whom he is supposed to be responsible. I sometimes despair of getting those who have the power to work or help to appreciate the elementary considerations which should affect us in considering the live stock and dairying industry. We should bear constantly in mind when talking about cattle and the dairy industry that we must think, not only of cows, bullocks and calves, but of the pig and bacon industry as an integral part of the dairy industry. It we want to come effectively to the assistance of the dairy industry, we cannot do it if we do not come effectively to the rescue of the pig and bacon industry as well.

I am conscious of the fact that there is a limited time for this debate and that the Minister for Agriculture should be provided with an opportunity to intervene but I want to make this point. In large parts of this country the dairy industry is substantially dependent on the contribution made to the producer by the ancillaries of pig production. When we were in office we tried to provide stability and in some measure we succeeded by guaranteeing the price of Grade A pigs. There is entering into that situation a new element of insecurity. That is that producers now feel that the grading of pigs in factories is producing for them an inequitable result. I do not want to underestimate the difficulty of that problem. It is a problem with which I had to wrestle when I was in the Department but at that time I felt that we had made some progress towards restoring confidence to the producer. I think that some further step is required now to convince the producers that they are getting the full value of their pigs at the factory.

I want to refer to the statement of Messrs Lovell and Christmas who put forward the point of view that it is the function of the factory rather than the producer to process the pigs. I think that the present system of grading is probably for us the right system, but if that system is to be carried on the confidence of the producers must be restored and they must be convinced that they are getting the full value of their pigs. I believe that, in certain circumstances, farmers are not getting the grade to which they are entitled. I have known of pigs being brought into a factory and being graded B, when I have very little doubt that they were entitled to a higher grade. I have known of individual cases where, when representations were made, the curers concerned were prepared to concede that a wrong grade had been allocated to a producer. I am bound to say in all honesty that it is the experience of all of us charged with the supervision of such matters that one case of inadequate grading will get ten thousand times the publicity of one hundred cases of accurate grading.

I want to say deliberately that if all the pigs graded in factories were checked you would find that in the vast majority of cases justice is done but there are exceptions and it is the exceptions which show the necessity for a proper independent supervision of the grading. Unless that is done public confidence will decline and the growth in pig production, which is essential for the development of the dairy industry, will not proceed.

I take the view that in agriculture, as in industry, we are in the dilemma that you cannot get markets if you have not got supplies and that you cannot make a more disastrous mistake than to go out and get markets before you have the supplies. If you do that and cannot supply the markets which you have obtained the result will be a very strong prejudice against your product when it is available. There can be no doubt that our first task is to produce supplies. We should make up our minds that we are going to produce bacon, butter, dried milk, cheese, livestock and livestock products. It may happen that when we have maximised our production of such supplies we will find in practice that our best effort may fail to find an adequate market for certain items.

When that failure comes upon us let us concentrate on the other items which we are producing in order to provide a continuous supply to the markets which we have obtained. We have got to make up our minds that for those items for which we have a secure market we shall provide adequate supplies. We should then find the market and if certain items prove to be unmarketable—and there are very few in my opinion which will so prove— then we must turn over to something else but having once secured a market we must keep that market fully supplied because there is no other way of effectively holding our markets.

We are told, and I believe it to be true, that one of the greatest lacks in the human dietary throughout the world today is protein foods, meat and milk products. There is no country on the face of the earth better equipped to produce both of these in quantity than this country of ours. Taking the long-term view, and bearing in mind that our principal market is the British market, I believe that with a marginal extension of these products we can look to the whole world, particularly to the new emergent nations, for new markets. Let us not doubt our capacity to deliver meat and milk products to tropical climates because, with modern methods of preservation of these products, it is the only way in which we can have access to these markets.

I have no anxiety on the score of our ability ultimately to get markets in all these countries for our products and at a price which will reward us for our labour. The problem is to get the maximum output from the land. The longer I know these problems, and the more I am connected with them, the more I am convinced that we cannot do that until we effectively bring to the farmer the technical know-how and guidance that the people engaged in business have acquired if we are to go forward to maximum production. I can never understand how we can regard it as normal and natural for old-established business institutions to pay £5,000 and £10,000 for the services of business consultants and why we should think it extravagant to bring to the owner of a ten, fifteen, or twenty acre farm similar assistance by way of agricultural advice.

I know of no effective way of bringing that advice to a farmer except through a national agricultural advisory service. I know of no effective way of bringing the Minister into that very close contact that he ought to have with the farmers except through a national agricultural advisory service. I know of no comprehensible reason why we should send out of this country to Rhodesia, Canada, Tanganyika and Nigeria the agricultural graduates of our Universities who can get jobs in any agricultural community in the world except their own. That is the kind of daftness which drives me mad. They are told that they are not wanted in their own country. I am certain that there is work in this country for up to 800 agricultural graduates if we put them effectively to work in a way that they could help the farmers and earn a living here for themselves.

I detest and have grown to loathe this whole claptrap about national economic objectives. I have grown to distrust and detest these White Papers that provide vast and ephemeral objectives designed to dazzle and bewilder the minds of men. I have a pragmatic mind and all I want to see is that my neighbours will have enough to live on in decency, security and peace on their own holdings. While we are talking about White Papers, national objectives and broad policies for the redemption of the economic life of the Irish nation I see my neighbours flying out of their homes because they cannot live on the land any longer.

Because they can do better, much better.

That is not true and nobody knows that better than Deputy Moher. It is perfectly true that when we are dealing with young fellows who are surplus to the domestic requirements of individual farms and where they are offered jobs in neighbouring towns, in Cork or in Dublin, they are going to Birmingham because they can do better, but I have never known of a man to leave his home with his wife and family and go to look for work in industrial England unless he was no longer able to get a living from the land he was leaving.

It is because he can get a job for himself and put his wife out to work at the same time. That is the usual thing.

If that is Deputy Moher's experience, well, I do not mind him. I never saw small farmers in this country anxious to put their wives out to work.

They are doing it now.

That may be Deputy Moher's experience but it is not mine. I believe the small farmers are being driven out because they cannot get a living at home and I am concerned to get them a living at home. I believe a way to get it for them is to help them to expand the total output of the land of Ireland by putting within reach of them the knowledge, know-how and guidance of an effective national agricultural advisory service with the assurance that the Department of Agriculture will accept responsibility for organising the marketing of that output whatever it may be. I believe that is an eminently possible thing to do and I think it is the greatest reproach to this Government that they have made no effort in the last four years to do it.

I exhort the Minister—no; I do not exhort the Minister because I do not believe he will ever achieve anything effective in the Department in which he is at present because to be quite honest, I do not believe he gives a damn about it. But in connection with this motion, I think it right at this stage to point out to him that I warned him when he started this cracked £15 a head scheme in regard to bovine tuberculosis eradication that he would run into trouble, that it would not work and that it was thoroughly unsound. That is the scheme under which the Minister proposed to pay £15 to a farmer if he is prepared to sell his beast to a cannery. The original scheme was that the Department of Agriculture bought the beast and disposed of it and bore the loss, if there was a loss, but there was no room in that scheme for the kind of jiggery-pokery that has now become widespread in the south-west of Ireland. I suppose we all learn by experience. I presume the Minister was prevailed upon to give his sanction to this scheme but the sooner he drops it the better it will be for all concerned and I hope this unpleasant experience he has had will make him revert to a more rational approach to the matter.

There is much more I should like to say on this subject, but we are limited to three hours for the debate on the motion and the Minister for Agriculture, presumably, desires to intervene. Deputy Wycherley is then entitled to make some reply and, in those circumstances, I shall hold for another occasion much of what I should like to add.

May I point out that the debate ends at 12.7 p.m. Deputy Wycherley is entitled to be called now, unless, by agreement, the Minister for Agriculture is allowed to come in?

I am quite prepared to allow the Minister in at this stage.

The Deputy understands that limits his time for replying?

I want only five minutes.

That means that at 12.2 p.m. I shall call Deputy Wycherley.

I think this motion has been on the Order Paper for the best part of twelve months. It deals with the dairying and cattle industries and it would take a long time to cover the whole field of the debate. Indeed, I do not think I shall have sufficient time to deal with the substance of the motion itself. As the Taoiseach has explained, a Bill was introduced earlier to-day not, as was suggested by Deputy Dillon, because of the year in which we live, but because this was the earliest date it could be introduced, having regard to a number of factors over which the Government and my Department had no control.

An advisory body was set up some time prior to my coming into office.

Its reports on different aspects of agriculture and agricultural marketing began to trickle into my Department about this time twelve months ago and it was not very long afterwards that the Government's attitude to its recommendations was made known. The public were advised of that attitude and then the legal advisers of the Government were instructed to take steps to prepare measures so as to give effect to the recommendations and decisions of the Government. The preparation of a Bill dealing with such a matter as the dairying industry is very tedious. One has to have consultations with so many interests and then, after a general scheme is prepared, it goes to the legal advisers who take time to prepare the various measures that the scheme necessitates. As I have already said, this motion has been on the Order Paper almost twelve months and, since we will have a full Second Reading debate on the Bill introduced to-day, and which I hope will be circulated this week, it is not necessary to cover the whole field in the short time left for discussion of the motion.

However, so far as the dairying industry is concerned, let me say briefly that it is the one agricultural activity in which I have had confidence all my life. It is the one section of agriculture that I have always tried to assist and support. Not only in regard to it but in regard to every other aspect of agricultural policy, it is not a matter of my defending myself or my Government here. I am always willing and ready to go before these people to whom Deputy Dillon has referred, the small farmers of Monaghan, Cavan, Mayo or any part of Ireland. I shall go before them and accept their judgment and their verdict on the policies I have recommended and pursued as Minister. I shall accept their verdict as to my competence to give effect to those policies and to play my part in any Government of which I have been a member.

No Deputy has better personal knowledge of the farmers' position and difficulties than I have. When I hear Deputy Dillon talking about the essential aspects of agricultural policy, I take my mind back to the crazy notions to which he gave expression here all down the years since he came into public life, both as Minister for Agriculture and as Deputy. I think of all the prophecies that have been made, say, in regard to milk. I look at the figures. Deputy Dillon does not like figures. I shall give the figures some other time, perhaps on the Second Reading of the measure that was introduced today. I look at cattle prices. I trace them back to 1956, 1957, 1958 and 1959. I think of all that has been said by Deputies for the past two or three years to the effect that milk production failed in 1958 because it was a bad and wet year. The year 1959 was a dry year. The year 1960 was——

Muck and slop.

Yes. I was told in this House several times that we would never again reach the 1957 production of milk.

Who told you that?

Umpteen times that was stated, both in this House and outside it. The figures go to show that, in 1960, in all probability, we shall reach the figure which was in fact the highest ever recorded, the 1957 figure.

That is not a very exciting achievement. It is a boast that you have not gone back.

The Deputy gets terribly excited.

At one time, I think in 1950, Deputy Dillon had as his policy as Minister for Agriculture to reduce the price of milk to 1/- a gallon.

That is not true.

That is not true.

The documents are there; the circulars sent to the creameries are there. These records are available.

No wonder agriculture is in the state it is in.

How did Deputy Dillon think that the policy which he pretends to expound now would achieve the results about which he speaks so glibly? What did the Government of which he was Minister for Agriculture do in 1956 about the price of cattle? I admit that at the present time cattle prices are low but they are not low at all in comparison with the prices for stores and fats that were received by farmers in 1956.

That is nonsense.

I have the records here and I can refer to them at a later stage. One of the things I never did and never shall do is to pretend to farmers that a condition of affairs exists as far as they are concerned that does not in fact exist. I believe in admitting what I know to be true. I know that farmers have intelligence. I know those who have produced milk and have raised livestock. During their lives and the lives of those who went before them, the cattle trade has been unsteady and a little uneven. I have said in this House what I repeat now, that I have confidence in the cattle trade. At times it will be more profitable than at others but there is a good future for it. I believe in milk production and in increasing it. I believe in developing the creamery organisation of the country. I believe in expanding it and I shall contribute my part to secure that end. It may create problems for us but they are problems that we shall face as a community.

No amount of misrepresentation, no amount of vulgar abuse, will rob me of the fact that my reputation as a Deputy and as a Minister who has stood by the dairy farmers has never been shaken in the minds of the majority of our people. You will not shake it now.

What about the Kilkenny elections?

What about the motion now?

Deputy Wycherley has five minutes in which to conclude.

Self-praise is no praise.

Go bhfoiridh Dia orainn.

The Deputy is blowing his political horn over there all the time.

I did not intend a challenge to be taken by the Minister for Agriculture. This motion was put down with the best intentions and I am very sorry that it should have been bedevilled by cross-fire between the Minister for Agriculture and the ex-Minister for Agriculture. This motion or any matter of importance to agriculture is worthy of the time which responsible people in this House can give to it. We often waste time here discussing the problems of all the countries in the world but when it comes down to discussing the problems of the Irish farmers, it always ends up in a heated cross-fire between the two major political Parties in this House, which is detrimental to the interests of the farmer.

What we want to do, and what my motion is intended to do, is to improve the marketing of our produce. I am very disappointed by the interest taken in the House in that aspect of my motion. Instead of the motion being dealt with intelligently, there was abuse and all the rest. We have reports and we have the promise of a Bill and of new boards and all the rest of it, but of what use is it to go to the farmers I represent and tell them that their problem will be solved by the introduction of a Bill or the setting up of a new board? Something practical must be done.

As I explained last night, we want practical steps taken to put our agricultural produce into the best markets in the world. The best market in the world is at our door-step, in the cities of England. My motion is intended to get our trade delegations into those areas where we can dispose of our produce to the best advantage, for the good of the Irish farmer.

I shall not say that this Minister or past Ministers should have done it but I do feel that practical steps should be taken now. It is late enough now and we should not wait another day. This motion was put down almost 12 months ago.

It is evergreen.

It is evergreen but it is more appropriate now than it was then because of the serious position of the cattle trade at the present time. Trade in the Dublin market yesterday was bad. I spoke at length last night about the importance of selling more of our cattle as carcass beef, tinned beef and processed beef, and I believe that is a market which must be developed, if our trade is to be developed on the right lines. There are changing circumstances all over the world and we must change with the times. The time has come when, with the housewife and the man of the house out working, as Deputy Moher said, the dinner is now in a packet in most houses.

In a can.

We must move with the times and our advisory services must be brought up to date to advise the Government on the developments necessary to keep in touch with the requirements of foreign markets.

I shall not force this motion to a division in view of the fact that a Bill is to be introduced and we shall have an opportunity of discussing what is in that Bill. I do not know what is in it and listening to Deputy Moloney last night, I thought he would have had the details today. However, we shall have patience and wait and we shall have another opportunity of discussing this matter on that new Bill. I sincerely hope some steps will be taken to market our agricultural produce to suit our requirements.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

As was pointed out on a previous occasion, the subject matter of motion No. 17 is sub judice.

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