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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 30 Nov 1960

Vol. 185 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Rent Restrictions (No. 2) Bill, 1960 [ Seanad ]— Committee Stage.

SECTION 1

I move amendment No. 1:—

To add to the section the following subsection:

"(2) This Act shall come into operation on the 31st day of December, 1960."

This amendment is self explanatory. It is partly consequential on the later amendment which advances the date by reference to which basic rents are to be calculated to the date of the commencement of this Bill. In order to facilitate the early issue of the regulations prescribing the various forms, it is desirable that the exact date on which the Bill will come into operation should be known beforehand. Furthermore, the 31st December next is the date on which the existing Acts expire.

Amendments Nos. 1, 2, 6, 8, 11, 13, 46, 47 and 48 are relevant and consequential.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 1, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 2.

I move amendment No. 2:—

In subsection (1), page 4, line 11, to delete "passing of this Act" and substitute "commencement of this Act, that is to say, the 31st day of December, 1960."

This amendment is consequential on amendment No. 1.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 2, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 3.

I move amendment No. 3:—

In subsection (1), page 4, line 47, after "dwelling" to add: "and to business premises let on the passing of this Act other than premises referred to in section 3, subsection (2) (e) of the Act of 1946, until they are vacated by the tenant who occupied them at the date of the passing of this Act."—Declan Costello.

In regard to this amendment, which I am moving on behalf of Deputy Declan Costello, it seeks to give effect to a principle which we have tried to maintain in regard to this Bill as a whole. The plain fact is that once a community gets involved in the whole complex of rent restrictions, a whole series of inequities build up over the years. We have had rent restriction in this country in one form or another for over 40 years. We all know perfectly well there are many deserving landlords here whose premises are set at uneconomic rents and whose circumstances demand sympathetic consideration. On the other hand, we all know that as a survival of the whole system of rent restriction you have many families living in controlled houses and if there were any serious increase in their rent, their economic survival would become virtually impossible. The ideal condition is that there should be enough houses for everybody, and perhaps a modest surplus, so that rent agreements between tenants and landlords would be fair and equitable agreements between willing vendors and willing purchasers. But so long as the shortage of housing accommodation continues there remains this residual problem of hardship on landlords and hardship on tenants.

Our approach to this Bill has been that we sought to divide these cases into three broad categories—the circumstances of the sitting tenant, the circumstances of the vacated premises and the circumstances of the premises that have never been subject to rent control at all, those subsequent to 1941. We have felt that the post-1941 premises are reasonably provided for and that, in the case of premises constructed prior to that vital date, on their being vacated it was reasonable to allow landlords to have some equitable adjustment of the rent receivable in respect of these premises.

In that connection it is right to recall to the Deputies on all sides of the House that the word "landlord" in this country has become so associated in the minds of our people with ancient historic events connected with the Land War and so forth, that people are liable to forget that a considerable number of the landlords affected by these Rent Restriction Bills are in fact people in very modest circumstances who have been left small properties out of which to get their living. You frequently discover on investigation of who a landlord is that you are dealing with an elderly widow or elderly people in straitened circumstances who have a very exiguous income from rents receivable in respect of small parcels of property commonly bequeathed to them. That should not close our minds to the other fact, and that is when you have had rent restriction operating over a period of 40 years a large body of enterprising speculators have bought houses subject to rent control, and the purchase price they paid for those houses was calculated in the knowledge that the premises they were purchasing were subject to rent control.

Those are merely two complications of this extremely complex and difficult subject. Then you come to the premises that are occupied by people in very modest circumstances and who, maybe for 20 or 25 years, have been paying what everybody is prepared to concede today is, in their present circumstances, an uneconomic rent. You have got to weigh the equity to see that substantial justice is done. pending the realisation of ideal justice. But you cannot have on the road to reform a social revolution every morning. If sitting tenants are to be made subject to pretty stiff rent increases, what seems to be a trivial matter to Members of this House may be a very severe burden on people in modest circumstances.

Half-a-crown may not be much to any of us sitting here but it may be a very grave burden on people living on small premises many of which fall within the category of occupied premises under existing rent restriction law. Nor should we forget that into this category of sitting tenants, as I understand it, will fall a considerable number of small shopkeepers who are transacting business on a minimal scale, who may find an increase in rent to be the last straw that breaks the camel's back. I refer to people who do a little trading in vegetables or sweets or in businesses of that kind, which scarcely qualify for the description of a shop and yet is the sole means of survival for a little family trying to maintain its independence and is succeeding in doing so.

We feel that in trying to unravel this 40-years-old tangle of rent restriction and control we ought to accept the principle that for the present a sitting tenant should not be subjected to the arbitrary increase in their rent. There is provision in existing legislation, as I understand it, that where a landlord carries out a certain type of repair he may have recourse to the appropriate authorities to have an adjustment in the rent fixed which bears a relation to the capital cost of the repairs he has carried out. But this is a proposal for a general, all-round increase in rents on sitting tenants. I do not deny that you will find cases in which it is a very hard thing—much harder on the proprietor—to deny him the right to this flat increase than it would be for the sitting tenant to pay, but hard cases make bad law and taking the general picture, we feel that there should not be an arbitrary right to increase rents in respect of sitting tenants.

This is not the last Bill that will ever be passed in regard to rent control; it is by no means the first and the general tendency has been towards the relaxation of control and, as our supply of houses and accommodation approximates more closely to the total demand, the need for rent control will steadily decline. We feel, in existing circumstances, the balance of equity and of good social progress demands that there should be that concession in respect of sitting tenants.

Some Deputies may say that there are cases of the most acute difficulty in which the rent paid by the tenant bears no relation to the economic value of the house and that the landlord urgently requires relief. Such cases may exist—I have no doubt some would come to light if a detailed investigation were made—but there are two prospective avenues open to the landlord in those circumstances. One is the effluxion of time which means that ordinarily the tenant will move out leaving the premises vacant and the landlord greater freedom to adjust the rent in respect of an incoming tenant. The other is, if the landlord urgently wishes to get control of the premises and is in a position to do so and is able to afford it, it is usually possible to offer some monetary inducement to the sitting tenant to secure a vacant premises when the landlord can make adjustments in accordance with the provisions in this Bill.

Even with those two reliefs present to our minds, we must not close our eyes to the fact that there may remain certain hard cases and in respect of that, all I can say is that one has to balance one evil against another. I suggest that we would be gravely mitigating the inconvenience or hardship which would arise from a proposal to increase rent on all sitting tenants in the country if we abandon that proposal and accept the proposition that these arbitrary increases will not be allowed in respect of sitting tenants whereas in respect of vacant premises or post-1941 premises there will either be a degree of freedom or total freedom to settle the rent as between tenant and landlord.

I want to emphasise that it is not present to our mind—and it should not be present to the mind of any fair-minded Deputy—to represent all landlords as being wealthy proprietors as opposed to tenants who are universally impoverished or in straitened circumstances. Nor would it be honest to make the alternative case that all landlords are people who own these premises and have seen their incomes depreciating over the years, because that is not true. A great many of these premises were acquired subject to rent control and therefore any arbitrary increase in rent is a purely uncovenanted benefit for the person who bought the house 10 or 15 years ago and who paid a price for it that had regard to the existence of rent restrictions. We should not dismiss from our minds that even though we accept the principle that there should be no increase on sitting tenants that does not create a rigid, unalterable situation between proprietor and tenant because there still remains open the remedy provided by the effluxion of time on the one hand, which may result in the tenant voluntarily moving away or the possibility of the landlord on the other hand making some deal with the tenant to relinquish his tenancy for some modest capital sum.

I am not seeking to suggest that this proposal is founded on any basic ethical principle; I am simply trying to commend to the House a remedy for an existing situation, in which we cannot escape, no matter how we approach it in legislation, from a residue of hardship somewhere. Our aim is to produce the minimum hardship and to effect the maximum reform, and I think the Government would be wise to accept the principle which the amendment seeks to affirm. If the terms of this amendment do not conveniently produce it, it would be very easy on Report Stage to find a suitable form of words to do so.

At the outset, I should like to point out that the amendment deals solely with premises let solely for business purposes. In approaching this problem the Government, first of all, considered the Conroy Commission's recommendation on the matter. That Commission said that they could see no reason why the Rent Acts should continue to apply to purely business premises. At present these Acts apply only to a very limited number of these business premises that is, to purely business premises let on less than yearly tenancies. Any purely business premises let on longer tenancies are outside the scope of the Acts. The Acts apply also to premises which are mixed premises; in other words, to lettings made for both business and residential purposes.

The theory of the Rent Acts, the purpose which informs the legislation, is to extend protection to tenants in regard to one of the necessaries of life, namely, their residence, their home, the roof over their head. There is a separate code of legislation dealing with business premises. Those who occupy business premises are protected by the Landlord and Tenant Acts.

It is confusion of thought to regard the Rent Restrictions Act as being properly applicable to purely business premises. As I say, the Conroy Commission could see no reason for continuing this control and the Government agreed with the recommendation of the Conroy Commission, but the Government were careful to retain control in any case where a residence was involved.

In the case where we are removing control, that is, the purely business premises, we are giving the tenants affected immediate access to the benefits of the Landlord and Tenant Acts. In other words, they can procure a 21 year lease at a fair rent. If that rent cannot be agreed between himself and the landlord, then it will be settled by the court.

It is unfair to suggest that we are being unfair to the tenants of these types of premises. We are removing the protection of the Rent Acts from these types of premises but we are immediately giving the tenants concerned access to the provisions of the Landlord and Tenant Acts. I think that is a perfectly satisfactory solution to the situation and it is the one recommended by the Conroy Commission.

One of the worst features of this Bill is the decontrol of business premises. The Parliamentary Secretary has stated that the legislation dealing with rent control does not apply to business premises let on yearly tenancies or for longer periods, and that is so. The type of premises which were controlled under the 1946 Act were the small businesses carried on on weekly tenancies where the tenant was trying to make, as best he could, a living out of a small business, perhaps in a back street in this city or in a small country town. We are now going to raise the rent on that tenant. I see no justification for doing that.

There is a theoretical argument which the Conroy Commission gave and which the Parliamentary Secretary has repeated, namely, that the Rent Restrictions Act was never intended to cover business premises. The Parliamentary Secretary suggested that there is confusion of thought in believing that the Rent Restrictions Act could cover business premises. If such confusion of thought exists, it has existed for a great number of years and this Oireachtas, at the instigation of the Party which was forming the Government, of which the Parliamentary Secretary is a member, in 1946 continued the protection given to the small type of business premises with which we are concerned.

I am not terribly concerned with the wealthy businessman who is able to bargain and who may be in a strong bargaining position with the landlord, but I am concerned with the tenant of a small business who is trying to make his livelihood as best he can out of the business and who is not in a strong position even to bargain with the landlord or to pay an increased rent. What we are doing in this proposed legislation is increasing the rent on all small businesses throughout Ireland.

It does not follow that because it is let on less than a yearly tenancy, it must be a small or unprofitable business.

If the Parliamentary Secretary does not accept my generalisation, I shall put it this way, that most of the small businesses with which we are all concerned, certainly with which I am concerned in the city of Dublin and with which, I venture to suggest, country Deputies are concerned in their own constituencies, are carried on in premises the rent of which is controlled.

We are going to put up the rent on those people. Why are we doing that? There is some theoretical argument that there was confusion of thought which has lasted for about 30 years. Why are we suddenly to find that we have been confused for all this period and decide to put this confusion right and increase the rents on all these tenants?

We can argue the position with regard to private dwelling-houses. The suggestion of the Government, which I do not accept, is that there has been an increase in the supply of dwelling-houses suitable for letting and that the dangers which are anticipated, namely, of extortionate rents being demanded, will not arise in the case of dwelling-houses. That does not apply in the case of businesses. There has not been an increase in the number of premises available for letting in the form of businesses that would warrant the decontrol of business premises.

Take any of the back streets in the city of Dublin. There are still the same number of business premises there and there will not be a great supply of business premises available to tenants who will have to face the alternative of giving up their business or paying a higher rent.

It has been suggested that the Rent Acts are meant to cover only the necessaries of life. In fact, what we are doing is increasing the rent on premises from which the tenant earns money to pay for the necessaries of life. I am sure there is not a Deputy who is not familiar with the small businesses selling fuel, tobacco, cigarettes, old clothes, all sorts of minor things, out of which the tenant is just able to make a living. I see no reason why this legislature should increase that man's rent. That is what we are doing.

Has he the same security of tenure as the long lease man?

At the moment he is better off.

He will be just as well off in regard to security of tenure.

Why interfere with that?

It does not interfere with that.

He will be just as well off.

If you were to ask any of these tenants would he like a 21 year lease and pay 50 per cent. higher rent or would he like to stay the way he is, what do Deputies think the answer would be?

Many of them would. I interviewed a deputation who all wanted long leases rather than statutory tenancies.

In view of this threat held over them, obviously they would.

They have nothing to sell if they have not a long lease.

If that is so, it seems to me very strange that long ago these tenants have not gone to the landlords and said: "Give us a 21 year lease".

Many of them have.

It is extraordinary the knowledge the Parliamentary Secretary and Deputy Briscoe seem to have of the position of which I am aware in the city of Dublin and in Cork. These tenants have absolute security of tenure.

As long as the Rent Acts last.

As long as we do not take it away from them.

How do they know that?

These tenants have absolute security of tenure. They are perfectly content the way they are If they had to decide between a 21-year lease at 50 per cent. more rent and staying the way they are, I know which way they would choose. There are arguments which can be put up in theory with regard to dwelling-houses and I do not accept them. However, in regard to business premises, I do not see any justification for increasing the rent of such tenants. It has been the boast of this Government that this Bill does not affect sitting tenants. When that statement comes to be analysed in more detail it is then qualified: it does not affect sitting tenants of dwelling-houses. Why affect the sitting tenants of business premises? We are making a very modest suggestion in this amendment. All we propose is to leave the status quo of sitting tenants. If decontrol of these premises is insisted upon, decontrol them in the future but do not decontrol sitting tenants. That seems to me to be a reasonable suggestion. It is in keeping with the declared intention of the Government that they do not want to affect the position of sitting tenants. I would ask the House to pass this amendment.

I wish to deal with one point made by Deputy Costello. He seems to imagine that merely because a business premises is let on a less than yearly tenancy it must automatically be a small, struggling business in a back street. Of course that just is not so. That is an oversimplification of the position. Deputy Costello stated that he was not concerned with the large, wealthy businessman who is a tenant of a premises but his amendment does not make any distinction. If we were to accept the amendment we would continue to extend the benefits of the Rent Acts to these large, wealthy businessmen who happen to have business premises which they occupy on less than yearly tenancies.

On the Second Stage of this Bill, Deputy Costello spoke at some length and with a great deal of conviction about the expertness of the Conroy Commission which had been set up to deal with this problem, and berated the Government for not accepting certain of their recommendations. He cannot have it both ways. This is a clearcut recommendation of the Conroy Commission. If they were an expert commission and if they were as good as Deputy Costello said they were on the Second Stage—and I have no doubt that they were—why can he not accept this recommendation as well?

Deputy Costello asks what is the reason for this. Surely the reason is obvious to the House. The rent of a business premises is a different thing altogether from the rent payable for one's residence. Rent payable by a businessman for his business premises is one of the ordinary outgoings like rates, electric light and other overheads. It is not a necessary of life. The Rent Acts are there to deal with the rent of one's accommodation, a necessary of life. It is wrong to extend the protection of the Rent Acts to premises which are purely business premises.

Why should one businessman, just because he happens to have a yearly tenancy, have to pay the full market rent for his premises while his next door neighbour, because he has a technically different letting, gets the benefit of rent control? Why should landlords be expected to subsidise businessmen? That is what it amounts to. You are asking the landlord to subsidise the businessman who has a certain type of letting. There is no logic in it and no justification for it. I am reinforced in my opinion by the categorical recommendation of the Conroy Commission. I cannot see any logic in the arguments which Deputy Costello is putting up.

Generally speaking, I think the case made by Deputy Costello on this amendment is unanswerable. It is no answer for the Parliamentary Secretary to make the point, which I grant him is a correct one but merely a debating point, that it is not only small businesses and poor tenants who have got the protection afforded by the Rent Acts. I grant the Parliamentary Secretary that there are some wealthy tenants carrying on comparatively large businesses on their premises, that is, business premises that are held on a weekly basis and, therefore, controlled under the 1946 Act. But by and large, certainly in the city of Dublin, the type of person who carries on a business in a lock-up shop or as a weekly tenant is a small businessman and any increase will mean a lot to him.

I did not discuss this amendment with Deputy Costello before he put it down but I take it he has not gone as far as he might. There is a recognition that eventually decontrol will come. It will come gradually but what Deputy Costello is suggesting is that, as far as people at present in occupation of these tenancies are concerned, we should not by legislative action here deprive them of rights which they now have, rights which both they and their landlords believed they would continue to have when they acquired their interest in the premises.

The Parliamentary Secretary conceded last week in answer to a question by Deputy Seán Flanagan that any of these people who, under the terms of the Bill we are discussing, must rely on the provision which gives them a right to come under the Landlord and Tenant Act, will have their rents increased. I think the Parliamentary Secretary was realist enough to face that and to state it in this House. I do not think it is right that we should force these people into the position that if they want to hold on to their premises, to hold on to a business connection which possibly they built up over a long number of years, they can only do that at the expense of an increase which as Deputy Costello mentioned, may be as high as 50 per cent. on the rent they are now paying.

It cannot be more than the fair market rent.

That may be but heretofore you are dealing with market rents under two headings: the free business premises and the controlled business premises. Now,they are being put into the one pool and the business premises which was controlled is now to be on a par with the uncontrolled premises.

The Deputy objects to a businessman having to pay a fair rent for his business premises?

No. I object to this House interfering with the rights of landlord and tenant which they have accepted mutually.

We have interfered with them for the last 40 years.

We have not interfered with them for the last 14 years.

The Rent Acts have interfered with the provisions of tenancy agreements. Ever since rent restrictions were introduced we have been interfering with the rights of the landlord vis-a-vis those of the tenant.

For the last 14 years the position, vis-a-vis the landlord, of a person who carried on a small business in a business premises on less than a yearly tenancy has been governed by the 1946 Rent Act.

Interfered with by the 1946 Act.

It does not matter. A quarter of a century has practically gone by since that position started and now we are coming along proposing to interfere with it. A landlord made a letting and a tenant accepted it of a controlled business premises in the last fourteen years; they both knew their respective rights and obligations. We are now proposing to take away rights from one party.

We are giving them alternative rights.

We are not giving them alternative rights which will compensate them for the rights we are taking away.

A long lease is a very valuable right. It is something a tenant can sell.

I have been a legal practitioner for 20 years and I know something about what a tenant, or anyone else, considers valuable, the respective merits of long leases and short leases, and protected tenancies. I have no hesitation at all in agreeing with the viewpoint expressed by Deputy Declan Costello. Many of the people in controlled business premises regard the fact that they are controlled under the Rent Restrictions Act as far more valuable than a 21-year lease, or a longer lease. As Deputy Costello pointed out, the test of the accuracy of that statement is the fact that, if they did not have that, they would not have been at all shy about going to their landlord and saying: "Look here. The Legislature is protecting us by the Rent Restrictions Act. We do not want the protection. Give us a long lease instead."

How many of them did that? The Parliamentary Secretary says quite a number. I should be very surprised if he has any statistics at all to show that that was done voluntarily in any significant number of cases in the last 12 or 14 years in the city of Dublin. I recognise that the tendency probably will be towards gradual decontrol. This Bill is one step in that direction. What Deputy Costello asks is that we should exempt from this provision the tenant who is in occupation of a small business premises at the date of the passing of this Act. He does not ask that the protection sought should carry on to his successor in business, his legal personal representative, his next-of-kin, or anyone else. All he asks is that we should be fair to the person who is in actual occupation now and not interfere with him in the way in which it is proposed to interfere with him in this Bill.

I gathered from something the Parliamentary Secretary said a short time ago that his objection to this amendment arises from the fact that there is no distinction between the large and the small businessman. I feel the Parliamentary Secretary has some sympathy with the type of tenant for whom Deputy Costello speaks. Deputy Costello has confined himself in the course of the discussion on this amendment to the small businessman. If the Parliamentary Secretary's only objection to the amendment is that it does not differentiate as between the small businessman and the large businessman, possibly some compromise can be reached whereby the small businessman will retain the rights given to him by this Parliament over the last 40 years.

Speaking for my own and neigh-bouring constituencies, and as a legal practitioner over a number of years, I should like to disabuse the Parliamentary Secretary of the idea that tenants of small businesses are most anxious to get leases because they feel they might have some valuable commodity which could be the subject of commerce subsequently. Most of these people have never heard of the Landlord and Tenant Act. They do not know that a lease is of any use to them. What they really want is to hold on to their present tenancy, subject to any small increase permitted by this measure. Deputy Costello does not attempt to speak for their heirs, assigns, or anyone else.

In my opinion this amendment is eminently reasonable. All it asks is that the small man should be left as he is to enjoy the frugal benefits of such profits as he makes selling matches and an occasional copy of the Irish Press and not forced to take a lease under the Landlord and Tenant Act at what the Landlord and Tenant Act is pleased to call a “fair rent”. Feeling from the Parliamentary Secretary's remarks that his objection to the amendment is because there is no distinction between the big business and the small business, I would ask him to pay some attention to the plight of the man with the small business, to show some consideration to him, and let the big businessman look after himself under the Landlord and Tenant Act.

In many ways we seem to be chasing shadows on this amendment. The supporters of the amendment have made their case, a case based on a very strong expression of concern and sympathy for the small man. The Parliamentary Secretary implied that he also is concerned with the small man but he has to overlook the case made on his behalf because he wants to get at the big fellow under this section. I think everyone is genuinely concerned and sympathetic where the small shopkeeper is concerned. Surely it is not outside the ability of the Parliamentary Secretary and his advisers so to re-draft the section as to meet the case made by the opposition for the small man while, at the same time, containing the case he apparently wishes to make. He cannot have it both ways. He cannot state that he has sympathy and concern in relation to the people mentioned but because the section deals with the big man he can do nothing. Of course he can do something. I appeal to him to have another look at the section from that point of view.

I should like to express some opinions based on the little experience I have had. There are various types of business. When one talks about business one generally visualises people with money in the bank, and that sort of thing. There are thousands of one-man businesses. In the strict sense they are not businesses at all. They are just a living. Under this provision those people could be asked to pay excessive rents. I believe landlords will avail of any opportunity given to them. It is all very fine to say the Court can decide. Small business people, with little education, do not like invoking the law and it will be possible to blackmail them into paying a substantial increase in rent, the more so if they fear that a court action might involve them not only in their own costs but in the landlord's costs as well.

The landlords are very clever and they can threaten and frighten people into paying substantial increases in rent. I wonder has the Parliamentary Secretary any way of protecting those small people? Suppose the landlord says to them: "Your rent is up 50 or 100 per cent.", what protection has such a person? If he goes to the courts he is likely to be faced with costs.

He can go to court and the court will fix a fair rent.

Who will pay the costs?

The court will decide that also.

Suppose the small man thought it would not be worth while to go to court and face a heavy bill of costs?

The costs of going to court apply to every aspect of litigation. I cannot help the high fees lawyers charge.

If the Parliamentary Secretary thinks so, he can avoid any costs.

Accept the amendment and we will not get a penny out of it.

In the case of the small business, the rates are usually included in the rent and the people generally do their repair work themselves. In most cases there has been little or no costs on the landlord for a number of years. I am talking about the small businessman who works on his own and who is getting a bare existence out of his shop, not about the man who makes £100 a week or so. Have you any protection for him? What protection have you for such a man against the landlord who will incur a bill of costs of £20 or £40? These people have a habit of employing junior and senior counsel to fight their tenants. I put it to the Parliamentary Secretary that he should consider the case of these small people and there are quite a number of them.

I have a good deal of sympathy with the amendment although some people imagine that businesses are divided into two categories, large and small. There are a big number of interim businesses. I have had experience of such tenancies in which the rent bears no relation whatever to present-day fair values. I do not think it would be right to continue to subsidise these traders at the expense of the smaller business as well as the larger business. Some provision must be made to enable the landlord to get an equitable adjustment of the rent in such cases.

I join with the Fine Gael Deputies who have spoken in favour of protecting the small businessman. If the Minister could bring in some amendment to give such protection I would be in favour of it, although I cannot see how he can do so. At the same time I would say that the Minister should give the landlord the right to secure an adjustment in the case of the medium businesses. If you pass the Bill as it is now and include all businesses in a less than yearly tenancy, the small man is bound to suffer unless some amendment can be thought of to safeguard his interests. If the Parliamentary Secretary can do that I shall be quite satisfied but I do not know if he can do it.

I would like to think that I am a reasonable man and that I would respond reasonably to Deputy Barrett's appeal but he is not right in saying that my only objection to Deputy Costello's amendment is that it covers the small as well as the large business. I want to point out again the protection that we are giving in this Bill. The present Rent Acts apply to purely business premises and to mixed premises. We are retaining control in the case of the mixed premises and that accounts for a large number of the small business premises. I want to point out to the House the situation that often exists. A landlord lets a mixed premises and the rent he gets is controlled. The tenant sublets the business portion as a purely business letting and that letting is uncontrolled. There you have the absurd situation of a tenant receiving from a subtenant a rent which may be considerably higher than what he is paying himself.

We shall accept Section 47 which deals with that matter if the Parliamentary Secretary will accept our amendment. Section 47 deals with the point he is making.

I am pointing out some of the anomalies in the present situation. This is not purely a matter of the small struggling business man from whom we are removing control. The only answer I can make to Deputy Sherwin is that we are giving that man security of tenure, a long lease at a fair rent.

He may not want a long lease. He may be afraid of a long lease and may want to get out.

In any lease there may be a provision to bring it to an end.

Not in a twenty-one year lease. The twenty-one year lease will not contain the provision that it can be terminated by the tenant.

I am talking of the simple people in a small way of business. They are ordinary simple people and they may not want to be committed to a long lease.

We are being perfectly fair to them. If the premises are valuable to them, we are securing that they will be able to get fixity of tenure at a fair rent. If that cannot be done by agreement between the landlord and tenant, the court will fix a fair rent. The Court will determine the open market rent and in doing so will take all factors into account.

It is very significant that the Conroy Commission—which was a commission dedicated to control all dwellings, past and future, furnished or unfurnished —recommended this one particular form of decontrol. In doing this they must have been influenced by pretty solid knowledge and belief when they, who were advocating a whole sea of controls, should have advocated this one drop of decontrol. I think I can only repeat that we have not had a single representation from this type of person. We have had representations about the Bill from the various interests but not a single occupant of this category has made representations.

Maybe they are innocent of their rights.

If they are, I do not think they should be running shops. This Bill has received plenty of publicity and, in all the time that has elapsed since its introduction, not one single representation in this regard has been received. I repeat that the amendment is not acceptable because I think this element of decontrol is perfectly justified, particularly when you regard the immediate safeguards made available to this type of tenant.

I think Deputy Sherwin has a point and that the Parliamentary Secretary has not answered it. The Parliamentary Secretary says that these small business men who are controlled under the 1946 Act are getting a fair "do" because they are getting security, a long lease, and a fair rent. That fairly summarises the remarks of the Parliamentary Secretary. The three blessings which the Parliamentary Secretary says he is bestowing on these tenants are, one by one, security of tenure, a long lease, and a fair rent. They will have security of tenure only so long as we do not interfere with them.

They have no certain knowledge that some Government, say in five years' time, might not wipe that out.

Nor have they any certain knowledge that a future Fianna Fáil Government, if there ever is such a thing again, would not decide that all twenty-one year leases would be abolished. These people have security of tenure so long as we do not interfere with them under this Bill. The second blessing the Parliamentary Secretary proposes to bestow is the long lease and it is here, I think, that Deputy Sherwin is quite right. Many of those people will not regard a long lease as a blessing. They will be afraid of tying themselves up for twenty-one years.

Until somebody tells them they have a valuable asset in the lease.

A lease cuts both ways. If the tenant accepts a lease for twenty-one years at a considerably higher rent than he has been paying, he is going to be obliged for twenty-one years to bear the burden of that rent unless he can shuffle it off on somebody else. But he may not be able to do that for many reasons. The character of the neighbourhood may have changed and he may be stuck with the lease for twenty-one years at a considerably higher rent. If we leave him alone the position about his tenure is secure and he is not obliged to stay on the premises a day longer than he wants to. He is not binding himself for twenty-one years and it is there, I think, Deputy Sherwin is right.

The third blessing the Parliamentary Secretary says he is bestowing is that they are going to have a fair rent. In fact it is recognised by everybody, including the Parliamentary Secretary, that the fair rent he is talking about is going to be considerably higher than those people are paying to-day—than they covenanted and contracted to pay when they went into the premises as controlled premises—premises that were afforded the protection of the Act.

It is not the landlord who is interfering. It is this House that is interfering. We are saying: "You will be protected no longer; we are going to alter your arrangement with the landlord so that if you stay on you will have to pay a considerably higher rent than you are paying at the moment." The Parliamentary Secretary says this argument means that I am against a landlord getting a fair rent. I am not, but I am against this House interfering as between landlord and tenant.

Why should we step in now and alter the old basis and force the tenant to pay a considerably higher rent? Deputy Sherwin may be interested in one paragraph of the Conroy Report. It deals with the termination of a tenancy. Paragraph 99 of the report says:

The tenancy which a tenant can claim is a new lease for a term of not less than twenty-one years and not exceeding 99 years at a rent which the court estimates a willing lessee not in occupation would give and a willing lessor would take for the premises if vacant possession were given and if the supply of similar premises were sufficient to meet the demand. The court will also have regard to the other terms of the tenancy and to the letting values of similar premises in the vicinity but not to any good will which may exist in the premises.

There follows a sentence to which I would call the Parliamentary Secretary's especial attention:

The rent under the new lease usually is considerably higher than the restricted rent permitted by the Rent Act.

So the Parliamentary Secretary cannot avoid, if he accepts the Conroy Commission Report, as indeed he does, accepting the position that the rents of these unfortunate people will be considerably higher than the rent payable under the protection afforded by the Rent Act.

I should like to put two questions to the Parliamentary Secretary: (1) whether the Government has inquired what percentage increase is likely to occur when tenants get rents fixed under the Landlord and Tenant Act and (2), if so, what that percentage is likely to be?

We have done our best to estimate what the effects of this are likely to be and I think Deputy Costello should realise that to attempt to ascertain a percentage of that nature is just absurd. The only thing we do stand on is that it will be a fair rent— that the provisions which we are making immediately available to this type of tenant are such that they will be entitled to retain their premises at a fair rent which will be decided by the court, taking all factors into consideration.

It seems to me that we are going over the same ground again. I want to reiterate the fundamental principle in this matter. There is no doubt in my mind that it is the principle the Conroy Commission had in mind when making their recommendations. The Landlord and Tenant Acts are there to regulate the affairs of business tenants. The Rent Restrictions Acts are there as a social necessity to cover the position of people occupying certain premises for the purpose of their own residence, to provide themselves with a roof over their heads. The Rent Restrictions Acts are properly applicable to that type of living accommodation; the Landlord and Tenant Acts are properly applicable to business premises. By this provision and by rejecting the Deputy's amendment we are simply transferring this type of premises to where it belongs, namely, to the provisions of the Landlord and Tenant Acts, which cover all other business premises with the exception of this type of premises.

Deputies are wrong in thinking we are dealing only with small business premises. That is not the issue. This category is covered by the type of letting. It can be big or small. It is misleading to attempt to convey to Deputies that this refers only to small business premises. There are large and small business premises already outside the scope of the Acts, and there are large and small premises within the scope of the Acts. We are taking all business premises, which are used solely for business purposes, and putting them where they properly belong, namely, under the scope and provisions of the Landlord and Tenant Acts. I think we are quite justified, in theory and in practice, in doing that.

Amendment put.
The Committee divid ed: Tá, 46; Níl, 69.

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Burke, James.
  • Carew, John.
  • Carroll, James.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Coburn, George.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan D.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Hogan, Bridget.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, Denis.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Manley, Timothy.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Palmer, Patrick W.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Sherwin, Frank.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tierney, Patrick.
  • Tully, John.
  • Wycherley, Florence.

Níl

  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Donegan, Batt.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Galvin, John.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Johnston, Henry M.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Loughman, Frank.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Moloney, Daniel J.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Toole, James.
  • Russell, George E.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Teehan, Patrick J.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies O'Sullivan and Crotty; Níl: Deputies Ó Briain and Loughman.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 4:

In subsection (2) (d), page 5, to delete all words from and including "or" in line 8 down to and including "commodity" in line 10.

The purpose of this amendment is to delete certain words in Section 3, subsection (d). As I understand it, this subsection (d) provides that certain dwellings would be excluded from the provisions of this Bill and excluded from the Rent Restrictions Acts. I am aware that over the years dwellings which come under the heading of fully furnished apartments or part-furnished apartments, are not covered by the Rent Restrictions Acts but the terms of this subsection appear to extend the conditions and circumstances which would exclude dwellings from the Act by the statement "or use of furniture, or for the supply to the dwelling of heat, hot water, fuel, electricity or any other commodity..."

I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary whether he agrees that this interpretation is correct and whether this subsection would have the effect, in the case of a dwelling let under what is called a reserved rent, of excluding such dwelling if, for instance, a landlord provides heat only in some form, or if he provides hot water or fuel or electricity as any single item.

My concern arises from the fact that over the years tenants in furnished apartments, tenants in dwellings let on the basis of being furnished, did not have the protection of the Rent Restrictions Act and there was the problem also of those tenants who were covered under the term "part-furnished." In hundreds of cases there has been the experience of part-furnished meaning the installation of a chair, bed, table, or one or two other articles of furniture.

I moved the amendment specifically to clear up the concern I have in this matter. If the subsection would permit a landlord to avail of the provisions so as to have a dwelling taken from under the protection of the Rent Acts and this Bill, I would insist on pressing the amendment but if the Parliamentary Secretary can explain that it is for some other purpose and would not have that effect so far as the tenants are concerned, I would be prepared to look at it again.

I think Deputy Larkin is under a slight misapprehension as to the exact effect his amendment would have. This is not a new provision. Identical words were inserted in the 1946 Act and all types of accommodation of this nature have been out of control since then. If we were to accept the amendment and to delete these words we would bring all that type of accommodation under control. In some cases we would control it for the first time and in other cases we would bring it back into control. These exact words were inserted in the 1946 Act—14 years ago— and since then there has not been a single word of complaint about them. I think that I can assure Deputy Larkin that there is no danger of the sort of thing he visualises happening.

In the first instance, the wording of paragraph (d) is such that the installation would have to constitute a substantial installation. It would have to be of such a nature that when the Court would apportion the rent at least 25 per cent. would be attributable to it.

In those circumstances, I think I can have no hesitation in assuring Deputy Larkin that there is no danger at all of this paragraph being used as a device to take accommodation which, properly speaking, should be within the Rent Acts outside their scope. I would ask the Deputy to withdraw the amendment because it will have the effect of bringing all this type of accommodation, which was never intended to be within the scope of the Rent Acts, under control.

The amendment was not put down for the purpose of introducing something new. The Parliamentary Secretary has assured me that the subsection will not have the effect I feared and I am quite prepared to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 7 is an alternative to amendment No. 5. The two amendments can be debated together with separate decisions, if necessary.

I move amendment No. 5:

In subsection (2) page 5, to delete paragraph (e).

The section as it stands at the moment contains a very objectionable feature which was fully debated in the Seanad. I do not think there is any great need to traverse the same country again in the Dáil, but we should like to stress the fact that we regard it as quite objectionable that a house which will continue to be controlled after the passage of this Bill can at a future date be decontrolled by the simple expedient of the owner taking up occupation in the house at any future date.

The words used in the section to which I refer describe a house which "at the passing of this Act is occupied by the owner thereof for the purposes of his own residence or thereafter becomes so occupied." Whatever case might be made—with which we would not at all agree—in respect of a house actually occupied by the owner at the time of the passing of this Bill, no case at all can be made in respect of future occupation by the owner for any time at all. There is no time specified in the Bill. It appears to me to be open to all sorts of abuse.

The owner of a house on which the rent is controlled can by some device or other occupy it for a time, conform with this Bill, and immediately thereafter there is absolutely no control on the rent of the house for future lettings. In referring to occupation by the owner no period is mentioned in the Bill. It does not say that he is to occupy it for five years or one year or a month. My interpretation is that all he needs to do is to move in there for a week or even for a night and he will satisfy the provisions of the Bill.

Some case may be made in relation to a house that is at present occupied by the owner. A case can even be made for the owner who bona fide subsequently takes up occupation of his own house. But, the thing is wide open to all sorts of abuse. If the section is not redrafted it will give rise to all sorts of devices by people who would wish to avail of them to have a house which they now own, which is let under a controlled rent, decontrolled forever, to the detriment of subsequent tenants.

It does not make it any easier for the landlord to get vacant possession.

No, it does not. It does not make it any more difficult for him to get vacant possession.

It is very difficult.

In some cases, yes, but there are more ways of killing a cat than choking it with butter and there are ways and means of getting possession of a house.

I should like to know them.

If the Deputy would just wait a moment, I shall mention some of them. If a landlord treats a tenant in a certain fashion he can wear him down gradually so that he will get out of the place. On the other hand it might pay a landlord well to entice the tenant out by passing over a sum of money and the tenant may be in a position that £10 or £20 might be a large amount of money to him at that time and could be enticed out in that way. It is to all that sort of abuse that I am referring the Parliamentary Secretary when I ask him to accept the amendment.

I should like to support Deputy Casey in the amendment for these general reasons, that there have been, as far as this city is concerned over a number of years, various attempts by unscrupulous landlords to get possession of premises for the purpose of having matters dealt with in such a way that subsequent tenants will not have the protection of the Rent Acts. In this section, as Deputy Casey said, if the owner of a house obtains possession, even though he may be an owner of a week's standing, that house forever is free of rent restriction.

It has not been unknown for landlords, apart from using non-cooperation almost approaching terrorism in some cases, to use economic inducements, where tenants and their families may be in serious necessity, in order to get possession of a dwelling-house. As far as I can see, if an owner of a house to-day proceeds to sell the house to somebody else that person, being the owner, can come along the following day and seek to get possession for his own residence; he can vacate the house again, re-sell it and then the house is no longer controlled. The effect of this section appears to be that the owner need only be in possession for five minutes—it does not specify who the owner is or suggest that the owner should be of long standing and bona fide and then the house is no longer covered by the provisions of this Bill.

That is a loophole in this desirable social legislation. An increasing number of tenants would find that they were being exposed to various types of pressure in connection with the houses which they were occupying. It is not easy to accept that they have protection of the law which would guarantee them against losing them the tenancy of their house. If the owner fails to carry out some essential repairs, the tenant may not be able to afford, because of the high legal expenses, to take the landlord to court to compel the owner to do what is required of him. The house may deteriorate to such an extent that the tenant may lose hope of ever succeeding in having the house put into a habitable condition. I am not suggesting that all landlords are bad; there are some good ones but the history of landlords in places like the city of Dublin is a very murky history and the tenants need all the protection these Acts can give them.

"Yorky" was the word used by Deputy Sherwin.

I do not think it is necessary to use the word but if one read the newspapers of recent weeks in which it appeared that local authorities have been seeking permission under C.P.O. to acquire property for clearance areas, one would discover from the evidence given on behalf of the landlords that the properties the local authorities were seeking required an expenditure of only a very small amount of money. As against that, the evidence on the other side, which has been substantially accepted, was that thousands and thousands of pounds would have to be spent before these properties could be put into repair. In other words, quite a number of landlords will not do anything for the tenants. This section provides a loophole. It gives an encouragement to owners to endeavour to obtain possession.

Does this not provide for a man trying to get possession of his house for his own occupation?

Paragraph (e) reads: "A house which at the passing of this Act is occupied by the owner thereof for the purpose of his own residence or thereafter becomes so occupied."

His own house for his own occupation.

For a week or a night.

This section appears to provide that it is sufficient for them to obtain possession of the house on that basis.

Once they have obtained possession of the house allegedly for their own occupation, they can, within twelve hours, leave the house.

That is nonsense. This is a house which he wants for his own occupation.

There does not appear to be anything in the section or in the subsection which would provide that having obtained possession of the house for his own occupation, he will continue to reside in the house.

Is the Deputy against a man's wanting to reside in his own house?

There is no difficulty for a person who requires a house for himself or his family getting possession. The point here is that once possession is obtained the house is out of control thereafter.

What did Deputy Costello say?

I think the fears expressed are fully justified. We are proposing here to decontrol certain types of houses. First of all, we are decontrolling houses which are now in the occupation of their owners. There may be an argument in favour of that and I understand that objection is not taken here to that. But the section goes on to say that we will decontrol forever a house which, after the passing of this Act, comes into the occupation of the owner. It may be quite reasonable to argue that if a person gets a house into his possession by reason of the death of the tenant, or by reason of his being able to buy out the tenant, or because the tenant has left the country, or for some other reason, that house should become decontrolled because the landlord goes in and resides in it. What the proposers of these amendments fear, and their fears are justified, is that there is a loophole in the section which will permit a person to exercise his rights under this section not in a bona fide fashion.

The section could be strengthened and the fears expressed could be overcome by the addition of the words bona fide to the section. I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary examine the section between this and the Report Stage with a view to seeing how it can be amended so that the loophole that now exists can be filled. What we must do is to ensure that there are no possible defects in the Act which would enable unscrupulous people to obtain unfair advantages. As I read the section, if there is anybody in occupation of a house that house is decontrolled for good and all after the 31st December and if he lets the house on 1st January he will let it at a decontrolled rent. If a person is able to get possession of a house at 31st January next and if he resides in it for one day he will be able to relet it in the beginning of February at a decontrolled rent.

What we have to cover here is bona fide residence by a landlord. If,bona fide, a landlord gets possession and resides in the premises at the end of January, 1961, and thereafter, for some reason or other, decides to relet, a case may be made for having that re-letting decontrolled. But there is a loophole at the moment for an unscrupulous use of this section. It would be quite simple for a landlord to sell premises to a man-of-straw and that man-of-straw could go into possession for one night on an undertaking to re-sell the premises to the landlord. It would be perfectly simple for companies to devise methods of getting their premises decontrolled. The Parliamentary Secretary would be wise to consider the loopholes and the dangers very carefully and to take steps now to guard against them.

The fears expressed are quite unrealistic. There are three things involved here. First of all, there is the Labour Party amendment to delete paragraph (e) altogether. Is that being withdrawn?

No. It is being pressed.

I think Deputy Costello is misinterpreting the views of the Labour Party. The second element is that there is a climate of opinion which thinks it is all right to remove control from houses which are owner-occupied at the commencement of the Act—the 31st December next— but that future cases in which the owner goes into occupation should not be decontrolled. Are the Labour Party also pressing that?

Deputy Costello is, I think, prepared to accept the principle of paragraph (e) but he feels that there are loopholes in it. I shall deal with that first. I am assured that the addition of the words "bona fide” would add nothing to the effect of the paragraph. I cannot accept these amendments because they cut across the fundamental purpose of the Bill. One of the underlying principles of the Bill is to achieve as much decontrol as possible without interfering with the rights of any existing tenant. If we accept that principle—it is a valid one, and one which can be defended on any ground—then, surely, we must accept paragraph (e).

There are two different types of case. One is that of a man occupying his own house. The house has never been let. There is no question of an existing tenant and no question of interfering with rights. All we say is that if the house is let in future it shall not be subject to control. That should be acceptable to the Labour Party because the Labour Party is anxious to increase rented accommodation and to have more rented accommodation available. If that house is controlled, it will never be let because the owner-occupier will not bring himself within the scope of rent control. If we remove it from rent control, there is every likelihood that at some stage the owner-occupier might be encouraged to let at whatever rent he can get, provided he does sot require the house for himself.

There is then the case of a man who, for some reason or other, gets control of his own house and goes into occupation of it. The wording of the section is quite clear; it says for the purposes of his own residence. There is no question of a trick or a person occupying the house for 24 hours, or a week. A landlord would be very foolish to try that, especially if he maintained another residence, because it would be open to the tenant to go to court and prove the landlord had not occupied the premises for the purposes of his own residence and the landlord would almost certainly find in such a case, after incurring the expense of the litigation, that the premises were controlled, the rent reduced and security of tenure provided for the tenant. He would be very unwise to take such a risk. To anticipate that happening on any scale, or at all, is unrealistic indeed.

As I pointed out in the Seanad, there is another reason the fears expressed here are unrealistic. A very large proportion of landlords could not avail themselves of these provisions, even if they wanted to, for the purpose which the Labour Party fear. Limited companies certainly could not occupy premises for their own residence.

It would be a very simple matter to devise a scheme by which limited companies could avail themselves of this clause in order to decontrol their property.

That is utter nonsense.

Mr. Costello

I shall tell the Minister how it could be done.

Human ingenuity can always devise ways of overcoming liabilities.

I do not see why the Parliamentary Secretary would not accept the words "bona fide”.

Because the advice I have received is that they mean nothing in this context and would add nothing to the section.

I think they would add a great deal.

I am prepared to take the word of my advisers on that. I am advised that the words are implied in the paragraph as it stands.

I think somebody is going to have to go to the Supreme Court to find that out. It would be much better for us to add these words now.

I am not against adding them but I am advised that they are unnecessary. Deputy Casey spoke glibly about the case of a landlord who would get possession by some device or another. We have the whole provisions of these Rent Acts to make sure that tenants of controlled dwellings are protected from arbitrary ejectment. How does Deputy Casey visualise that an unscrupulous landlord will get possession against the will of the tenant, and then go into fictitious occupation and have the house decontrolled? I am quite certain that this will not happen at all. If in any of these houses which become decontrolled by virtue of the landlord going into occupation, a room or a flat is subsequently re-let, that room or flat is brought back under control again.

I feel that the provision is quite reasonable. It is not unfair that a man should be entitled to go into his own house for the purpose of his own residence and that is all we are proposing to do here. I do not give any credence to the argument that this provision could be used as a device or a loophole.

I do not see any provision in this Bill which provides for a man to go into his own house. All the section provides is that somebody living in the house at the time the Bill is passed or that somebody who obtains possession and goes to live in the house after the Bill is passed——

His own house.

If this Act is passed and comes into force on December 31st, 1960, and if I buy a house on the 1st March it becomes my property. If, on the 1st April, I go into possession of that house it becomes decontrolled. Having regard to the number of cases where people buy houses and go to live in them and then discover that they do not suit them and want to leave them, it would be difficult to decide under what conditions a person would be bona fide taking possession of a house.

This section provides for rent decontrol of houses that in other circumstances would continue to be controlled. That is the objection we have to it. It could encourage unscrupulous landlords to take advantage of the provisions of the section to have houses decontrolled. I do not know about the legal position of limited companies but I do know that there are many people who own a number of houses. What is to prevent such a person acquiring possession of a house, saying it is for his own occupation and then saying that it does not suit him to take possession of that house? This subsection does not provide machinery for such a person to get possession of a house but, if he does do so, the house becomes decontrolled.

If he goes and lives in it.

If he goes and lives in it for one minute.

No, if he goes and lives in it for the purposes of his own residence.

If, after 24 hours, I decide that I do not like the area, that I do not like the people next door, or that it is too far from the bus service, can I not say that the house no longer suits me? I then proceed to go and get another residence and the house I have lived in for 24 hours is decontrolled.

If the landlord has a good house and gives it up temporarily to go and live in another house I do not think that any court will accept that.

You "do not think." That is the whole point.

How does the court come into it? Once he goes and lives in it, the house is no longer controlled. He goes and rents that house to a tenant and that tenant knows only that the house has been occupied by a person who is now leaving it and going to live in another house. The house has become decontrolled and I do not know what opportunity there is for the incoming tenant at that stage to do anything about it. I think that the Parliamentary Secretary should look at his position again because it seems that there is a very major loophole in this section.

The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned the question of the Labour Party looking for more rented houses. Perhaps the Labour Party is in the same position as Fianna Fáil or Fine Gael in doing that. I do not think that any of us are interested in people looking for profit rents from tenants; I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary suggests that the Labour Party is interested in such people. If he does he will very quickly be corrected.

All I meant is that all of us agree that it is eminently desirable that there should be an increase in the rented accommodation available for the people. A large number of people cannot afford to buy their own houses and this proposal is to try to secure that there should be rented accommodation available for such people. If, by removing this type of house from control, we can ensure that the people who own them will let them we shall be ensuring an increase in the supply of rented houses.

If the theoretical case which Deputy Larkin has mentioned could come to pass, if the owner could satisfy the Justice that he wished to take up permanent residence in a house and went in for three months and then gave it up and re-let the house uncontrolled what rights would the incoming tenant have in law?

It would be open to a tenant to go to court and establish that the landlord did not occupy the house for the purposes of his own residence but merely as a device and therefore have the court declare the premises to be still controlled and fix a rent for it, almost certainly a reduced controlled rent. That is the whole protection in this matter. A landlord who has a house which is free from control would be very foolish to leave himself open to be saddled with a tenant at a controlled rent. If the landlord did not want the house genuinely for his own residence he would relet it as a controlled dwelling or sell it.

Question put: "That the words in paragraph (e) down to and including ‘the' in line 20, stand."
The Committee divided: Tá, 70; Níl, 10.

  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breen, Dan.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Browne, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Donegan, Batt.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Galvin, John.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Healy, Augustine A.
  • Hillery, Patrick J.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Johnston, Henry M.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Loughman, Frank.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Maher, Peadar.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Moloney, Daniel J.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • ÓBriain, Donnchadh.
  • ÓCeallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • O'Toole, James.
  • Russell, George E.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Mary B.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Teehan, Patrick J.
  • Wycherley, Florence.

Níl

  • Carroll, James.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Costello, Declan D.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Larkin, Denis.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • Tierney, Patrick.
  • Tully, John.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Ó Briain and Loughman; Níl: Deputies Larkin and Casey.
Question declared carried.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Barr
Roinn