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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 Feb 1961

Vol. 186 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Road Traffic Bill, 1960—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Before the debate was adjourned last Wednesday, I had been saying:

Deputy de Valera said some very bad cases went into the Courts. Deputy J.A. Costello said we should leave it to the district justices, judges and juries. With all respect to the district justices, judges and juries, I will say as an ordinary citizen that though there were some very bad cases, there were some terribly bad decisions in courts all over the country. There seems to be a wave of sentiment all over the world when the most brutal murderer is captured and put on trial. There is a wave of sentiment for the murderer or the accused, as he would be called here. Nobody ever thinks of the poor devils who have been killed.

I want to qualify that. When people are killed on the roads, they are soon forgotten. However, the people who killed them, often because of careless driving, are not, I believe, adequately punished in many cases. I am not advocating punishment merely for the sake of punishment, but I am supporting the provisions in the Bill for an increase in the penalties, because I believe that will act as a deterrent and make the roads safer.

Last week, I had covered the field so far as the state of vehicles is concerned. I mentioned that there were on the roads lorries carrying very dangerous loads—loads of logs, girders and, perhaps, railway rails, though that is beside the point now. These loads do not always appear to be securely fastened. The Minister should ensure in the Bill that proper precautions will be taken and that the Garda can compel people to have these loads made fast. I have seen lorries loaded with high explosives going through built-up areas during busy traffic periods. Much greater care should be taken in regard to loads of explosives, often measured in tons. If there were an accident, there could be appalling loss of life.

I mentioned fumes last week. There should be some control over fumes from diesel engines. I did not get to the question of noise. The Minister will have to take definite power to control noise, especially from the high-revving engines of motorcycles and scooters. They go crashing through the streets making as much noise as a machine-gun, especially at night. This has been drawn to my attention chiefly by the mothers of young children who live in built-up areas. It is a serious matter that, when they get their young children to sleep, they are awakened by this noise. I do not know whether the Minister has any experience of it, but it is something to which he should pay great attention.

I do not know what the Minister intends to do about the report prepared by the German expert. Why is it that when we want to find out about anything, we have to send to Germany? When we wanted to inquire into our traffic problems here, why had we to send for a German expert, above all people? There are about 48 million people in Federal Germany and about the same number in France and in Great Britain. We can make a comparison between the three countries. In 1959, on the roads in Great Britain, over 5,000 people were killed; on the roads in France, over 6,000 people were killed; and on the roads in Federal Germany, over 13,000 people were killed—and we sent to Germany for an expert. He would have great experience in seeing how people were killed. We could probably have given him some pointers on how to make the roads safe, and goodness knows our roads are not safe. I just say that to the Minister in passing.

I made the point about lorries travelling in the convoy. I also think it should be made compulsory to wear helmets on motor cycles and scooters. Every effort must be made by Deputies on all sides of the House to do everything in their power to ensure that this Road Traffic Bill will be a good Act which will help to make the roads of Ireland safe. A reasonable time will, I am sure, be allowed by the Minister to the House before Committee Stage in order that well-considered amendments may be tabled. The Minister appealed to road users for courtesy and consideration. If he considers the amendments which are put forward with tolerance and toleration, the Road Traffic Act, 1960, will be a great advance in making the roads of Ireland safer for the people of Ireland.

Since Deputies have covered so much ground so well, there is not much that I need say. I should like to join with other Deputies in congratulating the Minister on bringing this Bill forward, and I wish him the success he hopes he will have in reducing the amount of casualties on the road. The Bill is most comprehensive. It had, no doubt, the advantage of being considered by a number of the Minister's predecessors, and I am sure that was of some assistance to him, but the Bill appears to have the imprint of the Minister's own personal consideration and decisions on a number of issues. They are none the worse for that.

I am concerned really with two points only. I am not sure about the reasons for the 30 miles per hour speed limit proposition. I wonder what justification the Minister felt he had for incorporating in the Bill the suggestion that there should be such a speed limit? Has he found from the experience in any other country that this arbitrary figure of 30 miles per hour—not 35 or 25—is correct? Has it had any influence in reducing the rate of accidents in built-up areas? Has the disadvantage of fast traffic travelling along fast trunk line traffic coming up against the 30 mile an hour limit at intervals of so many miles in villages, small towns and cities been considered? Has he considered the slowing-down effect which must arise if the 30 miles per hour limit is imposed to any extent?

Recently it has been suggested that, in fact, accidents occur at slow speeds and that the fast driver is the safer driver. There may be a fallacy there and if there is I should like the Minister to tell us what it is. I read it recently and I wondered if there was any substance in it. As other Deputies have pointed out, the problem is that there is increasing danger of death on the roads, or accidents of one kind or another largely because of the increased speed of motor cars and the fact that many of our roads cannot meet the needs of these fast cars. Quite often, it seems to me that the slow driver is a greater danger on the roads than the faster driver, particularly the slow driver who drives in the middle of the road and is unwilling to give way to traffic coming behind from either side.

I am not sure that I approve of the fines on the spot proposition. I do not know if it is a good proposition. I do not think it is a good idea for persons dealing with the public having direct money transactions with them whether they are local authority officials, Gardaí or any officials, where it can be avoided. I think the passing of money in certain circumstances between officials and members of the public should be avoided. The imposition of fines where necessary should be reserved to the courts. I think that the on the spot fine proposition could lead to abuse—not on every occasion. It may show itself to have undesirable consequences and act as a provocation to abuse by either the public or the Gardaí, and for that reason I think it is not a good idea. The Minister may have good reasons for that suggestion, and I am sure he considered that aspect, but I should like to know if he is quite satisfied that he would not be creating a greater danger than that for which he is trying to find a remedy. There is already an excessive amount of work in the courts arising out of road traffic offences and perhaps the purpose of the fines on the spot suggestion is to ease that amount of work.

The main point of interest to me is the decision about the drinking driver rather than the drunken driver. I suppose the Minister considered the obvious suggestion—which I understand is the law in Sweden—that if you drink at all you may not drive. It seems to me that is a suggestion which would probably be impracticable and impossible to implement. I suppose the Minister would get very little support inside or outside the House, or from his own or any side of the House, for a proposition that if a person wants to drink he may not drive a car. That would be the only way we would be certain that people would drive carefully, that there would be no intoxicated drivers on the road, but I suppose from the practical point of view it has to be ruled out.

It depends how seriously we are concerned about the problem of the intoxicated driver whose judgment has been seriously diminished because he has taken drink and in consequence has caused serious bodily harm to or killed somebody. If we were sufficiently serious and believed that this very radical suggestion of refusing to allow anyone who drank to drive had merit, we would try to put that proposal into operation. Assuming the Minister has discarded the proposition for its impracticability, the alternative is to carry on as at present. That is the choice taken by the Minister on the question of a test for dirnk.

I was not completely satisfied with the points made by the Minister or his reasons for rejecting the blood test and other important tests. I wonder if he would give us more substantial grounds for his rejection of some kind of objective test to assess responsibility in the case of a person charged with drunken driving.

Under the present system, one is left with the evidence of the Gardaí and the members of the medical profession. I do not think any of us have any doubts as to the appalling fallibility of the evidence on both sides. It is clear too often that the Gardaí appear to be anxious to secure a conviction; equally, it is clear from most evidence one reads, that the medical officer for the defence claims the person was quite capable of driving.

There is that conflict of evidence which may or may not be conscientious and well-grounded in belief, if not in fact. In local papers, the cases are reported in more detail. The more one reads such cases, the more one is left with the impression that the present system is very bad because it leads to the possibility of perjury, certainly false testimony. It also imposes too great a responsibility on the doctors on either side to decide whether a person is incapable of driving a car because of taking drink or capable of driving a car in spite of the fact that he has taken drink.

The tests are absurd in most cases— walking along a straight line, picking up boxes of matches, reciting difficult tongue twisters, remembering the number of one's car, and so on. All these tests are fallible and liable to misinterpretation. A person may suffer from bad eyesight, lack of co-ordination, diabetes or from the mental effects of the accident. An accident can alter a person's personality and certainly facility in co-ordination of action in the difficult little tests one is asked to perform by the Garda. The fact that the person has been through an accident can be sufficient to alter the degree of accuracy with which he can carry out these tests. If, in addition, he has taken one bottle of beer, that can alter the whole picture and create the impression that he is incapable of driving a car because of drink. That, it seems to me, is a failure which leads to various witnesses trying to give their impression of the person's ability to drive, in spite of the fact that he has taken a drink. It then leaves the district justice the almost impossible task of trying to sort out the truth or falsehood of the evidence or the deliberate intention to mislead. He then has to make the very serious decision as to whether the person, in his view, was incapable of driving because of having drink taken.

Usually the defendant appears to get the benefit of the doubt. He is allowed off and can go on drinking in the hope that he will not get into trouble again. These people are little the wiser of their experience. It would seem that getting off in the district court depends very much on your lawyer and that there are those who play around with the evidence in order to try to mislead the court and to secure an acquittal. All the present tests are completely inadequate. They are of little real value in assessing the degree of likelihood that a person, because of taking a drink, has been led into the accident. To continue to retain this very defective test and method of assessing culpability is a serious defect in the Bill and I would ask the Minister to reconsider this matter.

The position will now be rather worsened by virtue of the fact that a serious statutory penalty will be imposed on a person who is found by the court to have caused an accident as a result of taking drink. There will be increased litigation; there will be more appeals to the higher courts; there will be a continuation of protracted and rather dishonest and sordid differences of opinion in the courts. Eventually, the benefit of the doubt will be given to the defendant, probably because the justice feels that, whatever his chances were in the past when he could limit his penalty, an obligation is now imposed on him to award a particular penalty which, I understand, is considered by many people to be a serious one.

With the very limited facilities we are giving to assess culpability—that is, the existing ones—undue responsibility is imposed on the justices. Many of them may feel that, in all the circumstances and in the light of the fact that they cannot be absolutely certain of culpability, unless the person is virtually unconscious, the evidence is not sufficient. There are, therefore, bound to be more acquittals in the future, because of the burden of the increased penalty than there have been in the past. One cannot lose sight of the serious implication of a year's disqualification.

Before leaving the point about the year's disqualification for driving, while under the influence of drink, or dangerous driving causing death or serious bodily harm, I should say it does not seem as serious a penalty as might be imposed. The fact that a person driving a car has consumed so much drink that he is incapable of driving and kills another person shows the very serious level of irresponsibility on the part of that individual. I think that shows there is some serious personality defect in that individual. Disqualification may not be particularly irksome to some of those drivers. It would be to a lorry driver. Is there any likelihood that this will have the effect of allowing the district justices to say that the minimum penalty will become the maximum penalty?

Up to the present, in many cases, people convicted of these offences had a rather more serious penalty imposed upon them—imprisonment. Are we going to alter the attitude of the justice to this crime, allow him to feel that the statute provides for a year's disqualification and that that will be sufficient? I am inclined to believe that a certain period spent in what I would call a clinic rather than a prison would be the correct approach to the person found driving a car while so intoxicated as to have lost his sense of decision which would bring him to the position of killing or maiming somebody. I think that person requires a period of re-education in a clinic or some sort of institution where it would be borne in on him that this is a very serious crime, indeed, and where his sense of responsibility to his fellow-members of the community would be developed so that he would come to accept it was unthinkable for him ever to do it again.

I am inclined to think that the disqualification suggested by the Minister is an inadequate disqualification. In fact, the conviction should carry a statutory period of isolation in some form of psychiatric or other clinic in which the person would have to undergo treatment for a condition of mind from which he must suffer if he goes out drinking to excess and has an accident in which he either kills or badly maims somebody.

That is not an unique or unheard-of suggestion. As most of us know, many of the Scandinavian countries already accept that attitude to drink. We know that of the many people who appear before the courts very few are convicted. Many people who should be brought before the courts do not ever get there. More by good fortune than anything else, they escape serious accidents. In regard to the question of drinking to the point at which a state of impairing the individual's coordination is reached to the extent that he becomes a dangerous driver liable to kill somebody on the road, the Minister should be very much more ruthless.

I think he should make it quite clear that this legislation is determined to take that kind of driver off the road, to treat him as a psychopath, as an enemy of the public and to isolate him from the public for a period of from three to six months as the case may be with, of course, disqualification as well for a period of at least one year from holding a licence.

I should like to suggest that, as an alternative to the present method, the Minister should seriously consider the use of the blood test, the breathaliser or some such instrument. It is quite clear that medical science has reached the stage where it is going to be possible—indeed, it is already possible— to assess the alcohol concentration in the blood. We know that the fallacies or weaknesses in the blood test are said to be that individuals vary in the amounts of alcohol they can carry in their blood and at the same time suffer deterioration in their ability to drive a vehicle. Secondly, there is the question of the rate of absorption and concentration.

I think that if people were made aware that some test, breathaliser or blood test was to be carried out and if a person were found to be under the influence of drink while driving, then he would know he would be subjected to this completely objective test. If more than a certain concentration of alcohol was found to be in the blood —I understand it would have to be an arbitrary figure—in excess of this figure, then he would be automatically treated as a person who was driving while drunk. I think this should be seriously considered in respect of persons who drive dangerously while drunk, persons who cause serious bodily harm and persons who kill someone in such circumstances.

It has been suggested that this would mean a very serious incursion on personal rights. Clearly, we are dealing with a very serious problem in the question of death on the roads, particularly where drink is involved. If a person drinks and drives and has an accident, he cannot complain if the public take some steps to try to protect themselves. I think the introduction of a test is a permissible step, to try to find out whether a person has been drinking to excess or not. Apparently, the blood test and breathalisers have weaknesses. There is no doubt that they have weaknesses but I do not think that these compare at all with the fallibility of our present system of assessment of culpability.

I believe in all the circumstances that in legislation of this kind, which presumably is legislation which will last us for the next 20 years, we should make provision for the inclusion of some kind of scientific test whereby it will be possible for the Garda to go into court and say that the alcoholic content was so much in excess of the limit laid down by us, that the person was guilty, and that that person can have no plea against it and will merit some fixed statutory punishment which we could consider. It seems to me that if we are really serious about frightening the heavy drinking driver off the roads, we have no alternative but greatly to strengthen the hands of the Garda in this case. If a person has a meal and a bottle of beer and is stopped after an accident, it is quite obvious that it would be difficult to relate the drinking of the bottle of beer to the accident. Unless some sort of test is made available to the Garda they are in that dilemma of not knowing whether it was one or a dozen drinks a person with a good capacity to hold drink had taken already. Therefore both suffer—the innocent person who may have had only one bottle and the Garda who are in the position of not being certain whether to take seriously or not the fact that a person had had a drink. There is, therefore, a very good case for the introduction of some kind of test.

If the Minister felt like it, I suppose it would be possible for him to make the test a voluntary one. I would prefer it to be compulsory. Would it be possible for him to arrange that the individual charged should ask for a test, the Minister to try to decide what figure would be acceptable to the authorities, one based on scientific assessment? If the test did not show alcohol in excess of a certain concentration, there would be a very good case for his being found innocent. If the Minister is not prepared to accept the compulsory test, would he be prepared to allow a voluntary test to be asked for by any person charged with being drunk in charge or with dangerous driving, having taken drink?

We have, of course, precedents for forcibly isolating people and forcibly taking blood tests where we feel it is in the public interest. I do not think there is any doubt that it is in the public interest to isolate the heavy drinking driver and put him off the road. The precedents we have are in the 1947 Health Act where we have the right to put a person in an institution for any particular period, until we are quite certain he is no longer a danger to the public and of course we can, in certain circumstances, take blood tests. I am not a great believer in such a course and I would not resort to it unless a very good case were made for it but I do believe from our experience over the years, and reading between the lines in most of our court cases, that there is very much more dangerous driving due to people having taken drink than we care to admit. In those circumstances we are quite justified first of all in introducing some kind of scientific test and, secondly, imposing more serious penalties on a person shown to have been driving a car dangerously or to have brought about serious bodily harm to an individual or killed him. While I know the question of a test and the fixing of an arbitrary figure, discarding the old ideas which we have had, is an important and serious departure, I believe it is well justified and I would recommend such a proposal to the Minister.

Let me say at the outset that I welcome this Bill. If I have any complaint to make, it is in regard to the delay in introducing the Bill. It will be exactly four years ago next month since the present Taoiseach, then Deputy Lemass, intervened in a debate on the Estimate for the Department of Local Government and made an appeal to the then Minister, myself, to introduce amending legislation. Having read through this Bill very carefully, and the White Paper, I find that the main heads of the Bill are exactly the same as a Bill drafted four years ago and which was available to the Minister in the Department.

I appreciate the difficulty that any Minister for Local Government has in drafting a Bill. I appreciate further that he is not bound in any way to follow any suggestions or proposals which his predecessor may have left. I also appreciate that he has got a number of other Departments to consult, the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Department of Justice particularly. I appreciate his difficulty but still I do not think there was any necessity for this long delay in introducing the Bill. I am convinced that were it not for the fact that Deputy Dillon and some other Deputies of the Fine Gael Party introduced a Private Members' Bill in regard to lorries we might be still awaiting the Second Reading of this Bill.

The Bill is a very important one. It is a Bill which will be debated at considerable length, especially on Committee Stage. It is a Committee Bill and I sincerely hope that when we come to discuss it in Committee, it will be left to a free vote of the House and that Deputies will not be bound by Party affiliation. This is a Bill which will be welcomed by everybody. The Act will be a most important one. It is almost 30 years since the last principal Road Traffic Act was passed. If this Bill is to run for that length of time, it is only right that every section and subsection and every amendment should be debated at length.

The principal purpose of the Bill is the prevention of road accidents. No matter what legislation is introduced, unless we can put across to the public what the law is, we will get nowhere. A start should be made in the schools to educate the people as to the law on the subject. I should like to see members of the Garda appointed to give lectures to the various classes in national schools on the main principles of traffic regulations and traffic laws. Within the next 12 months, we are to set up our own television service. This is an ideal opportunity for television planners to include in their programmes, as other television corporations have done, instruction on the main provisions of road traffic legislation.

Regular viewers of B.B.C. television know the advantages to be derived from the lessons given on that network on road traffic laws and other branches of the law. The Ulster T.V. authorities are doing a terrific job in the lessons on road traffic they televise. Our television planners should provide for lessons on road traffic laws for the purpose of eliminating accidents.

The principal criticism of the Bill I have to make is that we are again falling back on legislation by regulation. I would ask the Minister the number of regulations which have been made under the Road Traffic Act, 1933. I am convinced that the number is 300 to 500. It is all very fine to say that the regulations are laid on the Table of the House, but there is not much use in Deputies knowing what the regulations are, unless they can put them across to the public. The people must know what the regulations are. By means of discussion of the Bill in the House, publication of the debates and discussion with various organisations and individuals, we will get the main sections of the Bill across to the public, but how are the public to be made aware of what is contained in regulations made under the Bill? The Minister for Local Government may make regulations; the Minister for Justice may make regulations; the Minister for Industry and Commerce may make regulations; and the Commissioner of the Garda may make regulations.

I am convinced that at the moment only members of the Garda are aware of all the regulations made under the Road Traffic Act, 1933. When private individuals are prosecuted for breaches of regulations made under the 1933 Act, one is amazed at the ignorance of those regulations, not only on the part of the defendants but on the part of members of the legal profession. The regulations are procurable only from the Stationery Office. Unless one is aware that a regulation has been made, one has no hope of procuring a copy if one has not a standing order with the Stationery Office. Ordinarily, the regulations are issued in pamphlet form in very small print. They must be correlated with the Road Traffic Act, which is a most difficult code to construe.

Even if it meant that the Bill would contain many more sections, I would much prefer if all the provisions were contained in the Bill and could be discussed in this House rather than that we should have legislation by regulations, which very few people will have an opportunity of studying or being aware of.

The Minister referred to one of the methods whereby we may avoid road congestion and road accidents. He referred to road improvements and to dual carriageways. Unfortunately, it will be many years before we will have dual carriageways on more than a few main roads in the suburbs of cities. The Council of Europe recently published a draft report of the Economic Committee on Road Safety which refers to this question of roads. I quote from page 10 No. A.S/E.C. 1259:

Traffic and road engineering has made great progress since the war and road safety considerations have become one of its main concerns. To make roads safer emphasis is laid on adapting the road to the traffic. This is done by determining the technical properties of the road which have an influence on accidents.

It goes on to mention the hazards we ought to try to eliminate:

Some of the hazards of the roads that can be reduced by road engineering are humpbacked and narrow bridges——

These are two hazards which are very common on our main roads and now, when the necessity for these narrow bridges is being eliminated by the closing down of railway lines in some places, we could possibly go a distance in eliminating these two hazards at a very early stage.

The report continues:

——the acute angle and other crossroads and junctions——

We should take lessons from the Six-Counties in that matter. They are at the moment eliminating crossroads. Where roads intersect, the crossing from the right on to the main road is not exactly opposite the crossing at the left. They endeavour to eliminate a direct crossing and eliminate that right angle at a crossroads. We could do something to eliminate that hazard at very little cost.

The report continues:

—sharp and unbanked bends—

I think our road planners are doing a fairly good job of that at the moment.

The report continues:

—the bad surfaces.

It will take some time to eliminate those hazards, but it is something we shall have to do and which the Department of Local Government can do with the limited resources at their disposal. When that is done, we shall have gone a long way towards the removal of hazards on the road. The Garda should be used in a preventive manner more than anything else on the roads, particularly since we have motorised the force. They should endeavour to remove what I might call passing hazards. For instance, the hazards caused by tinkers parking on the sides of our roads. The law at the moment does not prevent tinkers camping on the roadside, but it does enable us to prevent their grazing horses on the roadside. These horses grazing on the roadside are a considerable hazard, and if a patrol car, at night, could endeavour to eliminate that hazard by finding out the owners of those horses and prosecuting them for permitting these animals to wander on the roadside, we would be doing a considerable amount. We must bear in mind that if a horse is unattended and breaks away from the caravan to which it is attached and wanders on to the roadside, causing a serious crash, the owner of the animal is not liable for any injuries which may arise from his negligence.

The Minister has referred to speed limits as one of the methods of eliminating accidents on the road. I think we are all in favour of speed limits, but he will have to be careful. I note he does make provision for altering the speed limits on certain roadways and for having speed limits at certain times. I am satisfied that 30 miles per hour, particularly with the modern car of high horse power, is too low a speed even in built-up areas. For instance, on the road between Dún Laoghaire and Dublin confining the modern car to 30 miles per hour could create bottlenecks in traffic and would defeat the end which we have in view by introducing speed limits. On the other hand, in other parts of the city 30 miles an hour may be even too high. Therefore, I am glad the Minister has retained the power to alter the regulations as he sees fit.

There is one statement in the Minister's speech which I do not like. I refer to paragraph 2, page 6 of his speech in which he refers to the onus of proof:

A further subject is the onus of proof clause. It occurs quite frequently in the Bill. I am aware that there is a prima facie case against such a clause. I find, however, that the trend has developed in the courts to require the State to prove matters which the layman may be forgiven for thinking were not really relevant to guilt in a case. I am not criticising the courts in any way. The trend is there, however, and we have been faced with prosecutions dismissed on what I would regard as technicalities, and a burden of proof thrown on the State so intensive that enforcement of the law becomes very difficult, if not impossible.

What the Minister is suggesting is that where there are technicalities the State should not be required to prove them, that the onus is on the defence to disprove them. Who is to determine what are technicalities? All the laws of the State since its foundation, all the common law and the statute law, which is now the law of the State, lay down that a man is innocent until proved guilty. Here we have the thin end of the wedge inserted, that in technicalities there is an onus on the defendant to prove them; otherwise they are presumed not proved.

The Minister in his speech admits there is a prima facie case against such a clause. I would ask him to re-examine this and he may find some simple method of proving what might be called mere technicalities other than throwing the onus on the defence to rebut them. If such a simple method of proving these mere technicalities could be found I would prefer to see it in the various sections of the Bill to which the Minister refers. It is a dangerous principle, one we should not encourage. Once we get into technicalities it is easy to move from that to something else. Let us never depart from the maxim that a man is innocent until he is proved guilty.

I am in full agreement with the Minister that driving tests are essential but what kind of driving tests are we to have? I am convinced that any man who has reached maturity and who has experience of sitting in motor cars can become capable of steering a car, changing gears, braking and of performing such other elementary manoeuvres. I do not think these elementary things are the causes of accidents and I hope the tests will lay more emphasis on a knowledge of the rules of the road because, in my opinion, the lack of that knowledge is the major cause of accidents.

The Minister also has suggested that there be a test on certain vehicles over a certain age. I do not know whether we should confine it to old cars. I should like again to refer to the Draft Report of the Economic Committee on Road Safety of the Council of Europe, which says at page 15:

Many accidents which result in catastrophe are due to purely mechanical causes. The most common defects include brakes, improper lights, blow-out of tyres, unsafe steering mechanism....

That Report lays down that there must be certain international standards in the mechanism and equipment of motor cars. If we had that it would go a good distance towards eliminating accidents due to mechanical defects. It is not necessary to have an old car to have bad brakes, improper lights, blow-out of tyres or unsafe steering mechanism. If we are to have a test on cars at all, it should not be confined to old cars. We should provide that any car may be examined. We see some cars of pre-war vintage which are much safer than some of the post-war models. Tests should not be confined to a particular class of car.

May I mention direction signals? Surely it should be possible for the Department to get some agreement with car assemblers whereby only standard direction signals will be fitted. I remember a case not long ago where a car, with one of these flashing direction signals, was about to turn left and as it did so a lady motor-cyclist shot up and crashed into it on the left. Questioned as to why she did not see the signal, she said: "I did, but I thought it was a short circuit of your tail light." That is true. One can understand that a person not familiar with these blinking signals can easily mistake their meaning. It would be helpful if we had some standard signal and also if such a standard signal were made the subject of the lesson, to which reference was made, and possibly of a television programme. That might help to eliminate accidents and anything that would tend to achieve that aim would be helpful.

Might I suggest that instead of annual licences, motorists should be able to take out licences for two or three years? Many times, many of us overlook renewing our licence simply because we forget the date of expiry but if we were permitted to take out licences for three or four years—paying the appropriate amount for the period—it would be very useful and would result in savings for the local authorities as some of them send out renewal notices to motorists within their jurisdiction. That would save them sending renewal notices annually and would ensure that certain moneys would be made available and that drivers would not overlook renewals.

Under the 1933 Road Traffic Act, and under this Bill, provision is made for the endorsement of licences. Speaking as one with considerable experience, I want to point out that the Minister and the Legislature under the Act gave discretionary power to the district justice, who found it necessary to inflict the punishment of endorsement of licence and suspension, as to the removal of that endorsement pending the hearing of an appeal. In any conviction under any statute other than the Road Traffic Act, once notice of appeal is served there is a stay on all consequential results of the conviction. You then appear on appeal, just as you appeared on the original summons, without any stigma and without having suffered any penalty.

Under the Road Traffic Act and under this Bill, the justice must endorse your licence but he may refuse to remove the endorsement, pending the hearing of an appeal. The Minister may say that is within the discretion of the justice and I am glad to say that from the passing of the Act until about 1936, district justices did use that discretion and in at least 90 per cent. of cases, once notice of appeal was served, the justice removed or said he would remove the endorsement pending the appeal. But since 1936, for some unknown reason—I often suspected it was a direction from the Department of Justice—in 99 per cent. of the cases in which there has been a conviction, particularly for drunken driving, the justice refuses to remove the endorsement, pending the appeal.

I knew a case where a man was convicted in the month of November under Section 30 of the Act of being drunk in charge of a motor car. His licence was suspended for 12 months and he immediately appealed against the decision but the district justice refused to remove the suspension. That appeal could not be heard until the sitting of the circuit court in the following March. Meantime, for five months his licence was suspended and, as he was a commercial traveller, he had to employ a driver. On appeal, the circuit court judge reversed the decision, as he was satisfied that the man was not drunk. He dismissed the summons but could not compensate the man for the money he had spent employing a driver for five months. I think that defeats the purpose of the appeal.

We should endeavour to bring an accused person or defendant before the circuit court and give him a trial de novo without having this punishment inflicted on him in the meantime and I ask the Minister to amend the section by saying: “The justice shall remove the suspension on service of notice of appeal.” If he could not go so far, the Minister might say that the justice, for some sufficient reason, may remove the suspension. If he put such a directive in the Bill, it might assist justices in using their discretion. We can look into it in detail, perhaps, on Committee Stage and in the meantime perhaps the Minister himself would look into it.

I am glad the Minister has incorporated fines-on-the-spot in the Bill, although I think the term is a misnomer. I am afraid I was personally responsible for that. When I decided to introduce a Traffic Bill, I found opposition to this section from every official in the Department. I found considerable opposition from my colleagues in the Cabinet and I congratulate the Minister on being able to convince, not only his own Department but also his colleagues in the Government. It is an excellent idea but it is a pity we did not find a better name for it.

I once heard the former Deputy Cowan say in this House that on one occasion a district justice in the Dublin District Court heard 300 motoring offences in one day. I checked that and found it was true. Most of the cases were undefended; most were parking offences; and in most of them the same penalty was imposed. That, in my opinion, first of all takes up the time of the court and if a defendant appears either in person or through his solicitor, it takes up his time and possibly some of his money if he employs a solicitor.

With fewer trains running, we have more cars coming from the country to the city and it will take a considerable time for the parking regulations— which change not only from time to time but from hour to hour—to become known. One can easily imagine motorists from West Cork or Donegal breaking the parking regulations unwittingly. They go home and a week or ten days later, they get a summons. They can then decide to appear in Court and explain the position; or they can employ a solicitor to act for them or they can ignore the whole thing. Very often when such a summons is ignored, the justice treats the matter as two charges: a breach of the parking regulations and contempt of Court in refusing to recognise the summons of the Court, and a justice may, and very often does, impose a fine, taking into account the fact that the summons was ignored. If such a motorist had the option of paying the fine, I think he would opt to do so straight away.

The suggestion the Minister has made is an ideal one. A Garda finds you parked in the wrong place; he serves a notice informing you of the offence and the penalty involved. He cannot take the fine from you and neither can any other Garda. You have 14 days, or whatever the period will be, within which to call at any barracks and pay the fine and the Garda there will give you a receipt and retain a duplicate to be forwarded to the authorities in Dublin. If you think you are in the right, you may ignore the notice. After the prescribed period, a summons will issue and it is then your own look-out as to whether or not you will defend the suit or appear at the hearing. You have, however, the option of paying the fine. There will be no personal contact between the offender and the Garda who is prosecuting. I do not believe there could be any abuse in this and it will have the merit of saving considerable time. It will avoid cluttering up the Courts and save motorists a great deal of inconvenience. The Minister will make regulations prescribing the offences and the fines. I hope that it will be possible at some stage to increase the offences schedules. That would be an excellent thing and something which would be welcomed by all.

With regard to Section 104, under Sections 50 and 51 of the 1933 Act— Section 50 deals with careless driving and Section 51 with dangerous driving —some difficulty arises. For the prosecution to succeed in a charge of careless or dangerous driving, the defendant must be informed at the time of the accident that he will be prosecuted. If he is not so informed, there is a period of 14 days in which to serve notice of intention to prosecute. If neither course is taken, no proceedings can be instituted.

I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy, but this would appear to be a point for discussion on Committee Stage.

What I want to bring to the notice of the Minister is the fact that those provisions are being added to by this measure. Under this Bill, not only must these notices be given, but, if they are not given, there is an alternative: a summons may be served within 14 days. I cannot understand why a summons should be served within 14 days and also these notices, verbal or written. It may have operated in the Minister's mind that service of the notice had to be personal service and if a defendant evaded service, no prosecution would lie. If that is what is in the Minister's mind, then I agree with him as to the necessity for this provision. I think he could have met the difficulty, however, by legislating for service of the notice other than personally. I think that would be a good thing because summonses do not contain the same kind of particulars as notices.

I shall give a specific example. Take the position of a person who comes in every day from Dún Laoghaire to Dublin. Coming in some day, he may pass out a car in a dangerous or careless manner. He may not himself have noticed what he was doing. A Garda may have seen the incident, or the other motorist. If that man is on the road every day, unless the incident is brought to his notice within a very short time after its occurrence, the chances are that he will have great difficulty in recalling it when it comes to explaining his action before a district justice. If he is warned at the time, he knows he has committed an offence. If he is served with a summons which merely states that he drove in a careless or dangerous manner, he will not have sufficient data to recollect the particular incident and he may have great difficulty in preparing a defence. The Minister should look into that and provide, if possible, that notice will be served in some way other than personally. We could then do without that provision altogether.

On the question of insurance, the Minister informed us in the White Paper that he would introduce compulsory insurance for all passengers in cars. I am sorry he has dropped that proposal. I would ask him to reconsider the position. I think it is essential in these days of congested roads, of high-powered motor cars and of accidents that all people who are liable to become involved in these accidents should have the benefit of insurance. Am I wrong in suggesting——

I think it would be no harm if I put this matter right. Not only is the Deputy wrong but, for some peculiar reason, quite a number of other Deputies appear to have got the same idea. There is no question of its being dropped.

It is probably my reading of the Minister's speech. However, I am very glad indeed to hear from the Minister that compulsory insurance is not being dropped. I do not think the additional premium will add very much for the motorist and I am glad the Minister has decided to retain this provision.

One matter to which I should like to refer is the question of the right of local authorities to recover the expenses which an injured party may incur as a result of an accident. One is involved in a motor accident, is brought to a district or county hospital and is nursed there for some months. That person is entitled to free medical treatment and, following his discharge from hospital, brings an action against the person responsible for putting him in hospital. He may recover personal damages, but the unfortunate ratepayers, who pay for his maintenance and keep in the hospital, are prohibited from suing for damages under this Bill.

I believe this will have a serious effect on the rates. In my opinion, it is being used to subsidise negligence. I know the Minister will say: "There is a duty on the local authority to provide free medical treatment for that individual because he is in the lower income group and has got a medical card." But the holder of that medical card would not have to go into hospital at all were it not for the negligence of some person or other, and surely that person or other should indemnify the ratepayer who provides the free medical treatment for him in the hospital? Up to the present ratepayers were entitled to recover, and I do not think we should permit the wrongdoer to inflict this extra burden on them.

Another matter to which I should like to refer is the section in the present Bill which is in substitution for the old Section 30, dealing with drunken driving. Let me say at the outset I am all in favour of severe penalties being imposed on any person convicted of driving a car while drunk. I want that to be clear, but I want it also to be clear that I am not in favour of leaning over too far towards the prosecution, and I speak from experience. Deputy Dr. Browne referred this afternoon to conflicting medical evidence. Medical evidence given for the prosecution and medical evidence given for the defence very often conflict. But I am thinking of the case where there is no medical evidence.

When a doctor gives evidence of tests carried out by him in an endeavour to come to a conclusion as to whether a man is drunk or otherwise, he specifies the tests through which he has put the individual. He may be cross-examined on them and on the reactions of the individual to the tests. But suppose there is no medical evidence. Our district justices have now held that all that is necessary is that a Garda should swear that in his opinion the defendant was drunk within the meaning of the section. That Garda need not put the defendant through any test whatever. Once the Garda swears that he is satisfied that the defendant was drunk within the meaning of the section, there is an onus on the district justice to convict the defendant. A practice is creeping in just now whereby the Garda do not send for the doctor. In cases of dispute, advantage is taken of the section as it stands, whereby the Garda may give his opinion and his opinion is accepted.

I should like to see the Minister lay down some regulations in this matter. In isolated parts of rural Ireland it is impossible at a late hour of night to get a doctor to examine a man as to the amount of drink he has consumed. It may be held that, by the time the doctor gets there, the man has had sufficient time to recover from the influence of the drink he had consumed. Some simple tests should be applied by the Garda. It should not be sufficient to say: "In my opinion, that man was suffering from such consumption of alcohol as would render him incapable of driving a car." Some simple tests should be imposed, such as making the defendant write his name and address and the number of his driving licence, which would give the district justice an opportunity of comparing the writing at the time of the alleged offence with the defendant's writing at the time of the hearing. We should not just leave the matter where it stands, that a man may have his driving licence suspended for twelve months and have very severe penalties inflicted on him merely on the opinion of the Garda as to the amount of drink he had consumed.

I think it was Deputy T. F. O'Higgins who mentioned that we should make some provision for the expenses of an acquitted defendant. Any defendant who defends a case and has to pay legal fees knows the burden they are. But it is worse when a defendant has to bring a number of witnesses, possibly professional witnesses, from a distance to give evidence on his behalf. It may be suggested that this might become a legal ramp. I am not suggesting that the solicitor should get costs—I would not like to make that suggestion—but I am suggesting the defendant should be paid the legitimate expenses he incurred in bringing witnesses to prove his innocence when charges such as these are preferred against him. I should like to see the Minister looking into this matter. The cost would not amount to a lot. Very often the expense of bringing witnesses acts as a deterrent to the defendant, who may plead guilty in the hope of getting away with a nominal penalty rather than incur the expense of pleading not guilty. With the penalties we are imposing under this section, and taking into account the trouble and expense to which a defendant must go to prove himself innocent, provision should be made now at least to pay him his expenses.

There is another provision in the Bill which I do not like. That is the provision which says that in drunk-in-charge cases the district justice must impose sentence "unless special reasons are given". He must impose it. With the exception of murder, in no criminal conviction in this State that I know of, is there an implied— not an implied—a compulsory penalty of imprisonment, not even for manslaughter. A man may be found guilty of manslaughter by a jury but there is no compulsion to send him to jail. Here we are imposing a sentence of imprisonment "...unless the court is satisfied..." Why not leave it to the discretion of the court itself, and say that the court may, if satisfied, impose a jail sentence? Why say the court must impose it "... unless it is satisfied...?" That is cutting across the discretion of our courts.

The Minister could provide that the courts may, in their discretion, impose a jail sentence, but he provides here that the court must impose a sentence of imprisonment "... unless the court is satisfied..." That is highly objectionable and cuts across criminal law practice which leaves it to the courts to exercise their discretion with regard to punishment. The Minister should look into that matter. It may be that that was not the intention of the drafters of this legislation, but it is a matter about which the Minister should be satisfied before he embodies it in this Bill.

A Deputy mentioned compulsion on motor cyclists to wear helmets. I know there are many reasons why they do not do so. We have no standard helmets, but the Minister should take steps to ensure that standard helmets are manufactured or imported, and he should insist on these helmets being used. If he does, he will eliminate some of the dangers to which unhelmeted motor cyclists leave themselves open.

As I said, this is really a Committee Stage Bill. I hope there will be discussions on every section. I hope further that in dealing with amendments, the Party Whips will not be applied, that from this Bill we may evolve an Act which will endure as long as the 1933 Act, and that it will be unnecessary for another 28 or 30 years to legislate to amend our road traffic laws.

In his opening statement, the Minister said that the purpose of this Bill was to reduce the number of accidents and to secure a more efficient use of the roads. I do not suppose there is any Deputy who will disagree with those sentiments.

We have before us now a very long Bill greatly amending existing road traffic legislation. I am somewhat dubious as to whether a Bill which imposes many penalties will have the desired effect of achieving, as the Minister said, a reduction in the number of accidents and a more efficient use of the roads. It is unfortunate that no one considers penalties, or gives any cognisance to the fact that penalties are increased, until he finds himself up against it. In other words, the fact that we impose penalties does not necessarily mean that we will achieve the objects we set out to achieve. I cannot help feeling that a more educative approach to road accidents, road traffic and the whole position generally, would be likely to be far more beneficial than a long Act imposing mandatory and increased penalties, and giving increased powers to the custodians of the law, the Garda Síochána.

It is no harm to take a look at the approach to this problem in other countries. It has been discussed extensively in Europe in relation to policy as a whole. Slaughter on the roads in Europe, where the traffic is considerably more dense than it is here, has made people realise that it is essential to do something. Unified action has been taken to try to deal with this problem. In all countries, there are extensive discussions on the radio, extensive newspaper articles, and television and travel films have been used in an effort to impress upon people the tremendous dangers they face when they go on the roads. Not only is all that directed at motorists but it puts the problem before pedestrians and cyclists who are themselves as dangerous on the roads as the motorists.

On reading this Bill and the White Paper, it seems to me that the idea of the Minister and his advisers is that if we put the crocks off the roads, we will greatly improve the situation. If we put the crocks off the roads, there will be an outcry in rural Ireland. In my own county, there are quite a number of old cars which are just able to tip along in their own time, and are not able to keep pace with modern traffic. If this course of action is adopted and old cars are put off the roads, I can envisage quite a number of people in my county who cannot afford high-powered cars finding themselves, at the dictate of the Garda Síochána or local authority officials, no longer able to drive their cars because they are considered unsafe.

It is my duty as a Deputy to give my views about the cause of accidents. I do not agree with the principle of putting slow cars off the road. I do not think that is fair to the individual and I think it is creating a sort of class warfare amongst motorists as a whole. Drivers of slow cars, which come under the heading of crocks, should be instructed and advised that they should keep well in to their own side of the road. One cause of accidents is that if there is a slow car out in the middle of the road, or near the middle of the road, it is very difficult for the fast-moving traffic to pass. People get impatient and that is a cause of accidents.

Another thing which I think causes accidents—it is very dangerous and it is ignorance which causes them to do it—is that people do not dim their lights when sitting on the tail of another car. There is nothing more annoying than to have a car behind you which keeps coming up on you, because the driver will not slow down at corners as any cautious driver will, and sits on your tail with lights full on, blinding you against oncoming traffic. I do not know if this mass of legislative proposals will make dimming obligatory. Not only should people dim when approaching but also when coming up behind traffic and about to pass it out. It is very difficult to enforce compulsory dimming. A car passes so quickly that you cannot take the number, nor is it possible to turn round and pursue him and take an action against him for not dimming his lights.

It is known that the people responsible for accidents have been driving all their lives. Those of us who claim to be good drivers or who claim to try to keep the situation safe, have to take action almost every day to avoid some person driving around a corner at 50 m.p.h. and maybe with his wheels practically off the ground. It is easy to drive fast and yet carefully. It would seem that there is no reason why a person should not be able to drive his car on the open road at the full pace it can achieve. To drive fast around corners is one way of causing an accident. Then we have the driver who will take a chance at a blind corner. Accidents would not happen so frequently if people were instructed on these matters. Such an approach would bring about greater safety on our roads.

U.N.E.S.C.O. considered compulsory instruction in schools but did not succeed in getting a majority of countries in favour of it. It was held that in view of the heavily-loaded school curriculum, there was not time for that extra subject. However, there are countries in which compulsory instruction in schools is in existence. France is one such country. In recent years, there has been a considerable reduction in road accidents there. I am sure it would be no use to suggest compulsory instruction on road sense and road traffic in our schools, as it is frequently impressed upon us that our school curriculum at present is full.

We have fewer radio talks on traffic in Ireland than in some other countries. I do not know if we shall have television instruction. Across the water, there are frequent reconstructions of road traffic accidents. The public see how they occur. It brings the point home to drivers and helps to make them more cautious. I remember seeing a truck draw up in London at the corner of a street. An accident was reconstructed and an enormous crowd watched. There was a very fine portrayal of how and why the accident took place.

On the road, say, from Dublin to Wexford, large sums of money have been spent on the removal of corners with a view to creating greater safety. The Great North Road going out of London which allows about eight lines of traffic was supposed to do away with accidents for all time. Shortly after its opening, there were more accidents on those miles and miles of long straight stretches than there had ever been before.

I understand that the road down towards Kildare has been straightened, and that every corner has been eliminated but that the accident rate has gone up rather than down. Many accidents take place by reason of car lights. At night, on a long straight stretch of road on which there may be literally dozens of cars coming towards you, it stands to reason that there must be some blind spots. That position can be eased. In the past few years, there has been a considerable attempt in Europe to create artificial bends for the safety of the motoring public.

We have not sufficient danger signs on our roads. Our signs are not extensive enough, nor are they displayed at the correct angle. Quite a number of our signs have been lowered but many of them are still right up in the air. In Dublin the bus stop signs are too high, which is an inconvenience for traffic. It can cause a bottling-up of traffic which is always dangerous and productive of accidents.

We do not make enough use of luminous paints on our signs. France, Germany, Britain and other countries concentrate on luminous signs particularly at the approaches to corners, or corkscrew bends. There are large luminous signs which no driver can miss seeing. We seem shy of luminous paint in Ireland though we have quite a lot of "matchsticks" which in foggy weather, and so on, give an indication of corners.

Several Deputies spoke about the time of Gardaí being taken up on trivial offences. Hours must be wasted every day in Dublin city putting notices on cars or speaking to people about parking offences. The Dublin public are long-suffering. Traffic there has been growing steadily over the years. I know of no new parking facilities in Dublin city in recent years and how people are expected to avoid committing parking offences when they have nowhere to park is beyond my comprehension.

The Minister said he hopes to reduce accidents and to secure a more efficient use of the roads. There is no attempt to meet that situation in Dublin city. Take a person who comes into the city late any morning and who has business to do. Where is he to park? Where are the people who come up from the country to do a bit of shopping in Dublin to park? Out in Rathmines, Rathgar or some of the other suburbs. They may walk the rest of the way in. They come up from the country with a limited amount of time at their disposal and there is not a solitary parking place left anywhere. I do not think that anybody can gainsay that. There has been no rational attempt to deal with that problem. It may not be a matter which is entirely the concern of the Minister but it is a matter in regard to which he should have consultation with his Department. The sooner he pays attention to that problem the better.

When speaking on the Estimate for the Department of Local Government last year, I suggested that we had no lay-bys in this country such as one finds in Scotland and elsewhere. Quite a considerable amount of indignation was aroused on the Fianna Fáil benches because it was said there were no lay-bys here. Several Deputies said there were quite a number. I said I would be pleased to know where the lay-bys were. I am still waiting to be told. For the benefit of those who may not know what a lay-by is, might I give this explanation? When travelling along a main road and you want to park, as people do, particularly during the tourist season or, indeed, at any time throughout the year, if there is a lay-by in existence, when you get out of your car, there is some place into which you can push your car off the main road. It is a very simple thing to provide. All it means is having a small run in and out, such as you see at garages. These lay-bys could be on the main road at regular intervals. The Minister would be quite in order to introduce legislation making it compulsory to use these lay-bys instead of parking on the roads. If he did that, a lot of accidents would be avoided.

The question of big lorries parked on the roads is a serious one. They are the cause of many serious accidents. Would the Minister consider making it compulsory—it would not cost a lot of money—to have the tail of lorries painted white or treated with luminous paint? If that were done, there would be an end to this problem of people crashing into lorries parked on the roads. Big lorries parked in dark suburbs or, indeed, anywhere on our roads without any rear illumination are the cause of accidents. Many lives could be saved by having the lorries illuminated at the back. One often meets a lorry on the road with a big trailer after it. A car passes that and the headlights are on. The dimming may not be as effective as that on an ordinary car. When you pass, there is no indication that there is a long trailer behind the lorry. Accidents—and often fatal accidents—have happened by people cutting in in those circumstances.

A word should be said about pedestrians. It was only today, when coming into Leinster House, that I saw, outside the House, the most superb piece of driving on the part of a motor cyclist to save a person from being killed in circumstances where a fatal accident would have been the fault not of the driver of the vehicle but of the pedestrian. The pedestrian in question walked right across the path of the motor cyclist; how the driver pulled up I do not know. European statistics show that 27 per cent. of all accidents are caused by pedestrians. Any legislation which imposes on pedestrians the obligation to preserve the safety of the road is desirably necessary. It is not the motorist who is always at fault. Very often it is the pedestrian's own fault that he gets killed. For that reason pedestrians should be instructed.

That brings me back to what I said at the outset of my remarks. The drive should be to educate the public. If the public are not educated, you will not reduce accidents and you will not make the roads safe. No doubt this Bill will be extensively discussed on Committee Stage. That will be of no avail unless, in addition to making use of punitive measures, we have the fullest possible information given to the public, whether motorists, pedestrians or cyclists.

I wish to make only a few comments on the Bill. The Bill was on the stocks when the Minister took over. This is the same measure, except for a few extra sections the Minister has added, as the Bill which was on the stocks when we left office. Members have made statements that they are in favour of driving tests but all the experts at the time were entirely against driving tests. They held that an attempt to educate the driver to have patience and courtesy on the road was more important than driving tests. Even in the very Government services themselves, it was found that drivers who passed the driving test were responsible for a greater number of accidents than those who had no driving tests. The Minister made a speech on the Local Government Bill in 1958 and said that, regardless of what the experts might say, he personally was in favour of having a test for drivers and was going to bring it into operation.

The Commissioner of the Garda made a very important statement quite recently. I am sure he made that statement having had the benefit of the advice and experience of Gardaí in connection with motor traffic in Dublin and elsewhere. He pointed out that the new driver rarely had an accident unlike the driver who had driving tests. He suggested that the driver should be educated to have patience, not to blow the horn excessively and not to attempt to pass lorries or cars on a hill. He also suggested that drivers should be educated by means of instructions. I think the Minister has already issued a leaflet of instruction in regard to road safety for drivers. In England and Northern Ireland, where they have these driving tests, there is a greater number of accidents. The driver who has a test believes he can drive at 60 and 80 miles an hour because he regards himself as an expert driver. The man who has not had a driving test is most careful not to attempt to pass at a speed of 40 or 50 miles an hour. If he has received instructions, he will not attempt to pass a car on a hill or on a bend.

Deputy Esmonde wants parking places along the main roads. I do not know what width you would require for a main road to have such parking places to cater for traffic such as that which we have on the Dublin-Wexford road.

No matter what other Deputies may say I am against the renewal or restoration of licences when people have been convicted of driving under the influence of drink. I know the pressure that can be exerted, that the poor man is out of employment and so on, and I am glad that the power is taken out of the Minister's hands. It is most embarrassing for a Minister who has got to say "no". The Minister has no power now, once the judge decides. Some Deputies say that the penalties are too severe. I maintain that if a man is summoned for driving a car while under the influence of drink, there should be no sympathy for him from any source. If people are warned that they will lose their licences, and perhaps lose their employment as a result, if they take their cars out while under the influence of drink, then possibly we will be able to eliminate this evil.

The whole Bill aims at protecting people on the roads. I have been driving for 30 or 40 years along one of the busiest roads in the country and I know the trouble caused by pedestrians walking on the road. I appeal to the Minister to impose a condition, when making grants available for trunk roads, that the county engineer shall provide a path for pedestrians so that they will not be a danger to themselves and to motorists. Outside Bray in the old days, when there were only horses and carts and no motors, there were such paths which were looked after by the local contractor each year. Now there are stones, the remains of tar barrels and briers where the footpaths were and people have no alternative but to walk on the road.

If a driver meets another vehicle on the Wicklow side, he has to pull up if that vehicle does not dim its lights, because there are no footpaths and when the driver proceeds again, immediately after the other vehicle has passed, he will find pedestrians on the road in front of him. That is true especially where you have people returning to the villages from the cinemas or other places of entertainment. Some of the people I meet at night-time carry lamps for their own protection but they are only few in number. They carry them because we have made the main roads into racing tracks for the motorist with no concern at all for the pedestrian. I raised this matter time after time on the public board of which I was a member and I think from the remarks he made some time ago that the Minister did make a recommendation. What is the position? The engineer did try to make a path but it was left in such a condition that the pedestrians are no better off.

I think all members of the House welcome this Bill and we all hope it will achieve what it sets out to do and that it will eliminate accidents. In regard to unlighted lorries, the Minister should have some power to compel lorries of over three tons to have a helper who could carry an extra light. If a fuse goes or if a mishap occurs and the driver has to pull in to the grass margin, he will have the helper there with his lamp or torch to warn other users of the road that he is carrying out repairs. In that way, we might be able to avoid these accidents. I have met a number of these lorries parked along the road because the fuses had gone and they had no helper to warn the people that repairs were being carried out.

Tests for defective cars are also mentioned. Who will carry out these tests? In England, they are carried out in the garages. Will they be done here by the Guards or will they be done in garages? In England, a garageman interested in supplying a new car may condemn a car which is in for a test, but if the owner goes to another garage, he may find that it passes the test. I am not in favour of "old crocks" being on the roads. I believe it would be in the interests of motorists to ensure that their cars are safe for themselves and others.

I hope that on the Committee Stage of this Bill no pressure will be put on the Minister in regard to the offence of driving under the influence of drink and that no excuses will be made for individuals who may be penalised for not observing the law. There was a reference to lady drivers, but if you are leaving Dublin at 11 p.m., as I do, you will find that it is the young men in the two-seaters who do 60 to 70 miles an hour and try to pass other drivers along the road who are the danger. I cannot understand why there are so many accidents at one particular place, because it is well lighted and it is wide but it is near the Dublin area and people are returning from dances and other places of amusement, travelling at 60 miles an hour. They find there is other traffic along the road and when they go to pull up, they find they are into a bollard or into the ditch. This place is on the Donnybrook side and there is no turn, the road being straight and the lighting good. In regard to ladies driving even late at night-time, they are most careful and keep to their own side of the road, but we have a number of motorists travelling along that stretch who think they are on a racetrack and try to do 60 or 70 miles an hour. They pass out their friends and then create a jam at a narrow spot on the road.

Everyone should welcome this Bill, in the knowledge that we are trying to remove some of the causes of accidents. I would appeal to the Minister, when he is making grants available to county councils, to insist on paths being provided. I would even suggest that special grants should be made for that purpose. For instance, from Wicklow to Wexford, there are tar barrels where there should be paths. There is no place for people to walk, other than the main road. That is a cause of accidents. If the Minister insists on county councils doing their part, lives may be saved. A fortnight ago, a man who had to walk on the road because there was no path suffered serious injury by being involved in a car crash.

I hope the Bill will receive the co-operation of all the people and that it will help to save life on the roads.

All that a Deputy can hope to do on the Second Stage of a Bill of this kind is to try to generalise on it. A number of useful points have been made in connection with various provisions but at this stage I feel it would not be appropriate to deal with them. The Bill is a very extensive measure and can best be dealt with fully on Committee Stage. I have just a few general points to make now in regard to two or three of its provisions.

First, I want to congratulate the Minister on bringing forward this comprehensive Bill which deals with all aspects of modern traffic problems. Opposition speakers have told us that the draft of this Bill was in the Department for a considerable period while they were in office but they have not explained why they did not introduce it.

The Bill is as comprehensive as it could be in existing circumstances and it would appear that the Minister spared no time or trouble in examining proposals put before him before the measure was finally drafted.

I want to congratulate the Minister particularly on publishing the White Paper some months ago explaining the proposals. That gave the public an opportunity of putting forward advance criticism. I am glad to note that some of the criticism that was forthcoming was constructive and that the Minister was able to embody in the Bill certain proposals that were made.

The part of the Bill with which I wish to deal is that part which refers to compulsory insurance. We all know that prior to the 1933 Act, there was no compulsory insurance for mechanically-propelled vehicles in this country and that the number of vehicles voluntarily insured was only about 15 per cent. of the total number registered. That Act provided for compulsory insurance of all vehicles licensed for road use. With the passage of time, various anomalies have come to light in regard to many aspects of the insurance position.

The Minister dealt with the matter briefly in his opening statement. He said:

The 1933 Act provided for compulsory cover for passengers only in the case of public service vehicles. Section 65 enables the Minister for Local Government by regulations to specify the classes of vehicles to which compulsory passenger cover will apply.

I take it that the Minister is favourably disposed to consider the introduction, in due course, of appropriate regulations whereby compulsory third party insurance will carry with it an obligation of additional cover for passenger risk. I have very strong views in that regard. I feel it is a requirement that should have been introduced many years ago.

Generally speaking, all vehicle owners subject to compulsory insurance normally carry insurance to cover injuries to passengers but there is what is know as an "Act" policy issued by insurance companies to cover third party only. If the insured's claims record is not satisfactory the insuring company will offer an "Act" policy only, that is, a third party policy only, not covering passengers. That puts the insured in a very difficult position because the cover is of very little use to him. Third party cover in itself is practically of no use unless passengers are covered.

The question of insurance is closely connected with this Bill. The previous Acts and this Bill put the obligation on the owner of a mechanically-propelled vehicle to provide at least third party insurance for that vehicle and in the case of public service vehicles, also to provide passenger indemnity. When we are putting that obligation on the motoring public or on the owners of any type of mechanically-propelled vehicle, I submit we are obliged to ensure that they are put in a position to get that cover at reasonable terms. There is one very important aspect that I had hoped the Bill would cover, that is, the prohibitive terms imposed by insurance companies for third party cover where the applicant has an unfavourable claims record.

No reasonable person could blame an insurer for specifying reasonable restricted terms where the claims experience is not satisfactory but we should guard against the insurance company or guarantee company providing such cover being a law unto itself in that regard. As far as I understand they may impose any terms such as compulsory excesses, loading the premium or restricting parts of the indemnity. The insured-to-be has no alternative but to take what is offered. Worse still, even though there is supposed to be healthy competition between the companies who deal in this type of insurance, one finds that the terms imposed by one company are strictly adhered to by the next company to which one offers the business. There should be some form of appeal set up under the control of the Minister to which an aggrieved person could apply to have the terms reviewed, where circumstances so warranted. At the moment, a person requiring insurance cover has no alternative to paying whatever premium is imposed.

I do not want to labour this matter at this stage but I do hope the Minister will take note of my remarks. Once he is imposing the obligation on vehicle owners to provide cover, he should see that that cover is available on reasonable terms. It is my opinion that the proper body to carry third party insurance is the State. There would be many advantages in that. First of all, the handling charges of the insurance would be considerably reduced and there would be a very decided advantage in the case of a claim coming to court because the State is usually better able to fight a claim than a private commercial concern. The general experience in relation to insurance over the past 25 years is that premiums have increased by 100 per cent. Something should be done about this matter and I suggest that this is an appropriate occasion for the Minister to examine the question.

There has always been quite a lot of confusion with regard to the certificates of insurance which are issued by insurance concerns. These instruments of insurance usually carry on the top right-hand corner a reference which indicates, as far as insurance companies are concerned, the type of cover that is provided. For the officers of the law who are charged with the responsibility of examining these certificates, these references carry no meaning. Standard prescribed references, irrespective of the company issuing certificates, should be provided on these certificates. The members of the Garda who have to examine these certificates must find it very difficult to know whether the required cover is provided or not. I know people who are associated with the insurance business for a number of years and very often if you query them on a technical point of that kind, they may find it difficult to answer. There are at least a dozen major different type of risks that have to be provided for, depending on the use of the vehicle.

The Minister ought to consider standardising these certificates according to the category of cover provided, so that police officers examining them will know whether the vehicle is properly covered in respect of insurance. I am inclined to think there are quite a few mechanically-propelled vehicles on the road which are not properly insured at all. I am not referring to private hire cars because these are subject to special regulations in regard to mechanical order and have insurance certificates carrying a certain standard cover. There is only one type of risk to be covered there, but an ordinary private car carries a multiplicity of risks, depending on the use the owner makes of it. For instance, the owner of a car may be carrying goods of a type which may not be covered by his insurance at all. The police examining these certificates find it hard to tell with certainty whether the insured is properly and adequately safeguarded.

I entirely agree with the proposals contained in the Bill as regards driving tests. Various difficulties are bound to arise as to the most satisfactory method of conducting such tests. The Minister will have to devise some simple system of testing new drivers. As he indicated, according to age and physique, they may be licensed to drive a particular type of vehicle and excluded from driving another. I think the age limit fixed in respect of driving licences should be reduced. The law provides that a person may, at the age of 16, be given a licence to drive a motor cycle but not one for driving a four-wheeled vehicle until the age of 17 or 18, as the case may be. Persons of 16 years are now physically and mentally more mature than were persons of that age 25 years ago. For that reason, it is quite safe to entrust a person of 16 years with the driving of an ordinary light motor car or station wagon, but not a truck or any other such heavy vehicle. I would recommend, of course, that they should not be allowed to drive such heavy vehicles until they are at least 18 or 19.

There is another problem with regard to the driving of agricultural vehicles. Due to the scarcity of help, many farmers find themselves in a difficult position in regard to the driving of tractors and other farm vehicles because members of their family are not allowed to have a driving licence until they are 17 years of age. With reference to the driving of a tractor, particularly with a trailer, there is a certain amount of risk above the ordinary and the Minister would have to be somewhat conservative in issuing licences of that kind. However, even if a limited licence were issued to drive a tractor without an attachment, it would give much-needed assistance to farmers using tractors and who must on occasion send them on the public road going from one farm to another. If the Minister could not see his way to go the whole distance, I would ask him to go part of the way by issuing some kind of limited licence to these people.

The testing of vehicles is very necessary but I cannot agree that it is only vehicles which have been on the road for many years that should be tested. My experience is that the mechanical condition of a vehicle depends entirely on the degree to which it has been serviced and maintained during use. I have found excellent vehicles nine and ten years old. Some of these vehicles are in much better mechanical order than vehicles only two or three years in use. The proper approach to the testing problem is that in certain defined circumstances, for instance, if a driver is seen by a Garda bumping his car against another vehicle without some obvious reason, the vehicle should be tested whether it is new or not because in that case there is something wrong either with the vehicle or with the operator. Testing of older vehicles is necessary in any case from the point of view that insurance companies might create difficulty about providing cover for such vehicles. A certificate of fitness might help the owner in that regard to get favourable insurance terms. Generally, testing of vehicles may prove difficult because, in existing circumstances, personnel may not be available to undertake such work. In future, I take it that Gardai, during training, will get a special course in the operation, checking and testing of motor vehicles. In the long run, I think it is on the Garda that responsibility must fall; they are the people on the spot and the most practicable organisation to undertake such work.

I do not wish to delay the House in discussing points that perhaps have already been dealt with and with which, if not, I can deal on the next Stage.

It is difficult to speak at this stage without repeating something already said because since the Bill was introduced, there has been a pretty wide and comprehensive survey of the whole matter. Probably no more urgent or important legislation has been brought to the House for many years than the Bill now before us. It was promised many years ago but it has taken a long time to reach its present stage. I feel that were it not for the fact that the public mind has been turned to the subject by so many fatal accidents and the fact that the Fine Gael Party brought in a Private Members' Bill recently in regard to the parking of unlighted motor lorries on roads, the Bill would not have been introduced even at this late stage.

This Bill is very necessary. We live in an age of great speed and efficiency and for that reason our road traffic regulations are entirely out of date. Fatal accidents have taken place on almost every main and county road. There is much substance in complaints that have been made about lack of courtesy on the roads and there seems to be very little co-operation between the general public and road-users. From my own experience as a driver for almost 20 years I should say that, whether or not we have driving tests, the position will not change very much because all one needs to be a good driver is a bit of commonsense. A driver who uses commonsense and intelligence cannot make many mistakes.

Women drivers have been criticised but I have found that they exercise great courtesy, care and caution. If we review the fatal accidents that have taken place over the past 10 or 15 years I venture to say that a very small percentage have been caused by women drivers. They cannot be described as a menace on the road. I cannot say if everybody has the same experience but from what I have seen and from the records it is very seldom women drivers are involved in a serious accident.

If we are to start on the right foot in regard to road safety and traffic regulations, we must start in the schools. If the I.N.T.O., the secondary and vocational teachers' organisations give full backing to the terms of this Bill they can do an immense amount of valuable work by lecturing and training in regard to road safety. Every pupil attending vocational schools should be taught how to drive a car properly and should be given lessons on road safety and courtesy. The schools can do a great deal in this way. We have under the various vocational committees night classes of all kinds. Why not a class to teach people how to drive cars, tractors and lorries? The various vocation committees would be only too anxious to have such classes. They could be attended by those who are anxious to learn to drive and also by those who feel that they are not sufficiently proficient in driving. But the direction must come from the top and the Minister would be wise to consult with the Minister for Education in the matter.

There has been a good deal of criticism of the Garda. Now the Garda have a very unenviable job. I doubt if anyone here envies them. Long ago, their main work was barrack duty. Now they must keep records, diaries, and so on and so forth. I belive they are over-burdened with work. As well as that, I believe there is a lack of co-operation with the Garda. As in every section of the community, one will occasionally find an odd crank in the Garda, but, on the whole, co-operation between the general public, the motoring public and the Garda has not been as it should be. Part of the reason for that lack of co-operation is the fact that the law is out of date and not in accord with modern conditions.

Minor offences should be dealt with as minor offences. I refer to such offences as parking in the wrong place, one light out, leaving a car too far out from the kerb, parking too near a corner. Very often respectable people are brought into court, to their shame and embarrassment, for very minor breaches of traffic regulations. Very often the penalties imposed are much too severe. That is one direction in which I have an axe to grind in relation to regulations. The Garda gives evidence that John X parked his car so near a corner that it constituted a danger to other users of the road. Without thought, the district justice fines John X £3. Fines are far too high in the case of minor offences and far too low where serious breaches are involved.

I join with others in condemnation of the drunken driver. I believe that the publican who serves the drunken driver with drink should stand beside him in the dock. Serving drink to a motorist who is already under the influence of drink is, in my opinion, one of the most serious offences of all. Yet, it is not covered under any legislation. I hope that some steps will be taken to punish such publicans severely. Such publicans are not worthy of being described as business people. They have no regard for public safety. They are inspired by greed and the ambition to grow rich on the foolishness and folly of others.

I should like to see the drunken driver put off the road and kept off the road. I have known drunken drivers to have their licences withdrawn for three months or six months. I should like more uniformity of practice as between district and circuit court where drunken drivers are concerned. Such drivers should be put in jail for a good, long term and disqualified from driving for at least five years. If the drunken driver is kept off the roads valuable lives will be saved. Invariably the drunken driver escapes and it is the sober, hardworking breadwinner of a large family who is wiped out of existence. It is our duty to protect our citizens. I hope the Minister will put into this Bill a provision which will give the courts the widest possible powers to impose the severest possible penalities on drunken drivers and the publicans who serve them.

I join with Deputy Esmonde in a plea that local authorities should be obliged to provide lay-bys every three miles on each side of the road to cater for long distance drivers, such as lorry drivers. With regard to drivers of heavy transport, may I say that I commend the courtesy of bus drivers.

Debate adjourned.
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