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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 16 Mar 1961

Vol. 187 No. 6

Pigs and Bacon (Amendment) Bill, 1961—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

This Bill, like the recent dairy produce marketing legislation, derived from a report made by the Advisory Committee on the Marketing of Agricultural Produce; and the Bill is primarily directed towards the improvement of the export marketing arrangements for bacon and other pigmeat. Unlike the case of dairy produce, where there was no general control board already existing, a statutory body—the Pigs and Bacon Commission—has existed in this case since 1939; and, in fact, the Commission then established took over the functions of a Bacon Marketing Board and a Pigs Marketing Board which had been created by legislation in 1935. In view of the existing corpus of legislation on the marketing of pigs and bacon, the present Bill is therefore in the form of amending legislation. There is undoubtedly some inconvenience in this but a codification of the pigs and bacon legislation would only have delayed matters. In order to assist Deputies in following the provisions of the Bill, with particular reference to the earlier statutes, an explanatory memorandum has been circulated which I hope has been found useful.

Deputies will recollect the White Paper issued in December, 1959, stating the Government's policy on the Reports of the Advisory Committee on the Marketing of Agricultural Produce, including the Committee's Report on the Export of Bacon and Other Pigmeat. As indicated in the White Paper, the main recommendation of the Advisory Committee in relation to the export of bacon and other pigmeat was: that the export of bacon, in the form of Wiltshire sides and major cuts including the back, should be centralised in a re-organised Pigs and Bacon Commission which would export a steady weekly quantity to a reduced number of agents in Britain. The Government agreed that the centralisation of these bacon exports would have certain advantages in strengthening the organisation of sales in Britain; and stated that it was proposed to introduce legislation for that purpose and for re-organising the membership of the Pigs and Bacon Commission. These are the two central purposes of the Bill now before the House, which I would remind Deputies is concerned primarily with the export marketing aspects of the pigs and bacon industry.

Before passing on to the particular provisions of the Bill itself, I should like to make some remarks on the situation generally regarding exports of bacon and pigmeat. Since the ending of the bulk purchase of pigmeat imports by the British Ministry of Food in 1956—and, under our pork and bacon agreement with the Ministry from 1951 to 1956, we received fairly satisfactory average purchase prices— we have had in operation a system of guaranteed minimum prices to producers for good-quality bacon pigs known as Grade A and Grade B, and a corresponding guaranteed export price to curers for Grade A bacon. The market assurance thus provided for pig producers, and the incentive to improve quality, have proved valuable but of course there are other factors to be taken into account also. At the beginning of May last, a further price assurance and incentive to better quality was provided by the Government in the form of an appreciably higher guaranteed minimum price for Grade A Special pigs, and a correspondingly higher guaranteed export price for Extra Selected bacon. In the ten months ended 28th February, 1957, 62 per cent. of the bacon pigs graded at factories reached Grade A standard as compared with 69 per cent. in the ten months ended 28th February, 1961, and of the latter 12 per cent. reached Grade A Special standard. Other schemes such as pig progeny testing, boar performance testing, and pig herds accreditation, are now in operation to help in securing the necessary advances on the breeding side. Piggery grants have recently been increased also to encourage more efficient rearing and fattening methods.

The present guaranteed minimum prices of 245/- per cwt. dead-weight for Grade A Special pigs, and 230/- per cwt. for Grade A pigs, are I think accepted as reasonably remunerative for producers who are interested in a serious way in pigs. The actual prices paid of course exceed at times these minimum prices. Pig production has been at a relatively high level during the past three or four years, and has increased substantially since the latter part of 1959. In fact, the 1960 census figures of 967,200 total pigs, including 108,400 sows, were a record for the past 20 years. In the last pre-war census, 1939, total pigs numbered 930,900, including 95,300 sows. In 1950 the number was 644,900 total pigs, including 79,800 sows. Pig deliveries to bacon factories in 1960 were 1,298,000 as compared with an average of 1,026,000 for the years 1937-1939. Already in 1961 deliveries in the first ten weeks are up 17.3 per cent. on the corresponding period of 1960. A noticeable feature now, however, is the decline in pig numbers in the western counties as compared with pre-war.

Export market conditions for pigmeat (especially bacon) in Britain— by and large the only market—have at times been anything but satisfactory. Our bacon support arrangements have to be related to the prices fixed weekly by the London Provision Exchange; and, frankly, we often find it rather difficult to follow the relative pricing of Irish bacon on the Provision Exchange lists and the variations in this. For example, on the 18th June last Irish Extra Selected and British bacon were both priced 263/- per cwt. and Danish bacon 7/- higher at 270/-. By 1st October the Irish price was down by 22/- to 241/- per cwt., the British price was up by 7/- to 270/- per cwt. and the Danish price was up by 20/- to 290/-.

By 18th February, 1961, the Irish price was down by a further 7/- to 233/- per cwt., the British price was down by 30/- to 240/- per cwt. and the Danish price was down by 40/- to 250/- per cwt. No variations in the relative standards of the bacon could be detected to account for this. Even at our increased level of bacon exports in 1960 our supply represented only 5.5% of British bacon imports and 3.8% of total British bacon supplies; and the fact that these exports were sent in widely varying amounts from 36 exporters to even more than that number of purchasers or agents in Britain, and were not all of uniform presentation and so on, did not help us.

The Advisory Committee, which I specially asked to look at these pricing aspects, were not satisfied either in regard to the fluctuations of the price margins from time to time. Summing up, the Committee stated: "The impression we have formed of Irish bacon marketing arrangements in Britain is that they are in no way organised and that this leads to lack of confidence in our methods and results in weak selling and the acceptance of unsatisfactory prices."

It is only right to say, however, that, especially since the introduction of the A Special grade for pigs last May and the Extra Selected grade of bacon (all of which is exported) we have many encouraging reports that the quality and presentation of our bacon exports to Britain have been showing good improvement. But, to get the most out of the market, the case for a unified handling of our, at best, small share of the British bacon trade is very strong.

I may also refer here to the arrangements made last autumn, in view of the uncertain bacon market conditions, to encourage a greater interest in the pork export market in which Irish supplies formerly held a good place. These arrangements have worked with reasonable satisfaction, although the volume of exports has necessarily been on a limited scale because of market reasons and the desirability of maintaining continuity in bacon exports; but the pork exports have, in six months, resulted in a direct saving of some £38,000 in bacon support—and no doubt much more, indirectly, by holding off extra bacon from a weak market. They also have a useful side effect on both the home and export bacon market in absorbing pigs suitable for pork but not so suitable for bacon.

As to the future of the pigmeat export market it is perhaps difficult to be very optimistic that prices will be high in the times ahead. Demand however is good, and the trade is there, but quite a few other countries are anxious to develop their pig industries too. The situation is, therefore, a challenge to us to become more competitive by economising in every way possible on production costs; by increasing efficiency and improving quality at breeding, feeding and factory levels; and by adopting the most effective methods of export marketing. I have already referred to certain additional facilities and incentives given to pig breeders and fatteners. On the factory side, I would like to refer also to the grants being given for the modernisation of bacon curing premises and to the making available of State assistance to the bacon and meat trades for the establishment, by these industries themselves, of a meat research unit. Both of these developments were foreshadowed in the White paper on the Government's Programme of Economic Expansion.

Turning now to the actual provisions of the Bill, I will first take Sections 7 to 9 dealing with the re-organisation of the membership of the Pigs and Bacon Commission. The 1939 Act provided for a Chairman and two ordinary members, both of them being required to have served for at least eight years as officers of the Minister; the Chairman is at present also a Departmental officer. The Marketing Advisory Committee recommended that the Commission be re-organised to consist of three members nominated by pig producers, three nominated by bacon curers and pork exporters, two officers of the Department of Agriculture and an independent Chairman selected by the eight other members. The White Paper on the Committee's reports stated that the Government proposed that the re-organised Commission include two representatives of producers, two representatives of curers and two Departmental officers in addition to the Chairman. In the Bill, this is changed by an increase of one in the curers' representatives and a reduction of one in the Departmental representation. The reason for the change has been that since the issue of the White Paper strong and unanimous representations were made to the Government by the bacon curers that as the primary purpose of re-organising the Commission was in regard to bacon export marketing and the Commission would have wide powers of control over the bacon curing industry it was inequitable that the representation of curers should be only two out of seven.

The Irish Bacon Curers' Society emphasised that their members, comprising all the curers, could have no confidence in such a body and would fear the possibility of adverse effects so much that investment in the bacon curing industry would gravely suffer. In the circumstances it was decided to increase their representation to three and to cut the Government's own representation to one. Producer representation was left unchanged at two, which is regarded as reasonable especially as the position of producers is safeguarded by the provision of guaranteed minimum prices for bacon pigs. Contrary to what has been suggested in some quarters the representation of curers, major aspects of whose industry the Commission will control, will not be a majority but three out of a total of seven. There would not be much point in keeping the curers' representation at two if, as was clear, they—the processing and exporting industry concerned—would lack confidence in the re-organised Commission before it commenced.

The Bill proposes that the period of office of the members of the Commission would be three years at a time. There would be an overlap of one year between the period of office of the Chairman and that of the ordinary members, inasmuch as it is proposed that the Chairman of the existing Commission would be appointed by me as Chairman of the re-organised Commission for the first year. This overlap, which would continue in future, should be useful in securing a degree of continuity in the functioning of the Commission, without going too far in that direction. After the first year, the Chairman would be selected by the six ordinary members for a period of three years at a time.

The other major part of the Bill is contained in Sections 23 to 25, which provide for the centralisation, through the Commission, of exports of bacon of specified grades in the form of Wiltshire sides and major cuts which include the back. The intention is to apply this to exports of bacon of not less than Grade A standard to the British market, which as I already said takes practically all such exports. The possibility cannot be excluded that it may be desirable to apply the provisions to exports of other grades or to other markets, hence the general nature of the relevant Sections.

In this connection, orders under Section 25, prohibiting the export of bacon except by or on behalf of the Commission, will of course come before the House under Section 31. As to the precise lines on which the centralisation of actual exports by the Commission would operate, I think that this would have to be left to the Commission itself to determine.

The Commission would, however, acquire title to the bacon before export and would pay curers for it, subject to quality and condition, at prices fixed by me after consultation with the Commission under Section 23 (4) of the Bill. For the benefit of Deputies I may perhaps quote the following recommendations in this connection from the Marketing Advisory Committee's Report:

Paragraph 47. "The bacon should be purchased at an ex-factory price from the curers by the re-organised Pigs and Bacon Commission recommended by us later. This ex-factory price may have to be determined on a rough and ready basis at the start but as soon as possible it should be based on representative costing so that efficient operation of factories will be encouraged."

Paragraph 62. "It (that is, the re-organised Commission) should ship bacon only to appointed agents in Britain, existing trade contacts and arrangements being maintained as far as possible."

Paragraph 64. "Although in the matter of the appointment of agents the Commission should have regard to the curers' nominations, it is important that it should have a free hand in making appointments and also in regard to the renewal of appointments from time to time."

I have quoted these only by way of illustration but as I have said I think it should be left to the Commission itself to decide what is best to arrange in these marketing matters.

Section 27 dealing with powers of the Commission in relation to the development of markets for bacon and other pigmeat, Section 28 dealing with State grants to the Commission, and Section 29 dealing with State guarantee of loans to the Commission are, with appropriate modifications, in line with corresponding provisions in the recent Dairy Produce Marketing Act. I need perhaps at this stage refer in particular only to subsection (g) of Section 27, which gives the Commission ample powers in regard to the development of exports of pork and other diversified pigmeat products. In view of modern trends in regard to pre-packaging, especially with the advent of supermarkets and self-service stores, I am taking powers under Section 26 of the Bill to make regulations on aspects of pre-packaging which, as mentioned in the explanatory memorandum, would compare with control already exercised in regard to canned and open-pack meats of other kinds.

The position of the staff of the existing Commission is suitably safeguarded under subsection (10) of Section 12 of the Bill. As in some other recent legislation, subsection (5) of that Section provides that the manner of the appointment of staff will be by public competition, subject to certain special exceptions which are specified. Provision is made under Section 22, again as in other recent legislation, enabling a staff superannuation scheme to be considered.

The remaining sections of the Bill are, I think, more what one would term "Committee Stage" sections, but I shall of course be glad in replying on this Stage to deal with any points Deputies may wish to raise on any of them.

I have been studying this Bill and the White Paper which the Minister circulated with it and the Statement he has just made. It does not seem that there is very much new in the Bill beyond the change in the personnel of the Pigs and Bacon Commission and the power to control and direct the sale of Wiltshire sides and backs. I think a great deal more than that requires to be done if the pig industry is to reach the level we hope it will reach.

Before looking at the matters of detail that will probably arise on this Stage of the Bill I think we have one reason for self-congratulation. I remember when we first started grading pigs the average percentage of grade A pigs going into the factory approximated something like 58 per cent., if so high. Looking at the average for the weeks ending 7th January, 14th January, 21st January, and 28th January there are now contained in the Grade A special and Grade A, 68 per cent., 69 per cent., 70 per cent. and 71 per cent. That is a creditable performance. That percentage of Grade A probably compares favourably with the grading in countries like Denmark or Holland. I would be glad if the Minister would comment on that in concluding because I think I am correct in saying that an average of 70 per cent. in the top grade compares favourably with any other country in the pig business. It is a great pity that when in fact, largely by inducement and by the provision of guaranteed prices in respect of that top grade, we have achieved that high percentage of Grade A pigs going into the factories, we should jeopardise all that by allowing apprehension to grow particularly among the small producers that they are not getting a fair deal.

I think the evidence of a high percentage of Grade A pigs actually being certified by the factories is presumptive evidence that, by and large, the grading is all right but there is no use in deceiving ourselves that that view is shared by the small producers. They do not feel that they are getting a fair deal in the grading of their pigs and, not for the first time, I want to remind the House that in matters of this kind, for the good of the industry itself, both producers and manufacturers, it is essential not only that justice should be done but to carry conviction to the minds of the producers that justice is being done. If we do not succeed in doing that we are going to allow an element of uncertainty to creep back into the industry which will operate most adversely to it and most adversely in that section of the industry which we should be primarily concerned to protect and promote, that is the small producers.

The Minister, in the course of his introductory remarks, said that one remarkable development, apart from the increased number of pigs going into the factories, was the decline in pig production in the west of Ireland. That is the decline of the small producer. I welcome the large pig producer to the industry; he is a very useful element in it but it would be a great disaster if the pig industry disappeared out of small holdings in the west of Ireland from Donegal to Cork. If it is allowed to disappear it will be a most potent element in contributing to making the small farm in the west of Ireland uneconomic. If the small farmers of Cavan, Monaghan, Donegal, Mayo and all down the western seaboard to west Cork do not incorporate pig production into their husbandry, their husbandry will become all the less viable. So long as they produce milk, cattle, pigs and a certain quantity of fowl, not excluding turkeys, I believe a decent livelihood can be had on a small farm but if you drop out of the economy individual items of that composite picture the prospect of getting a living on the small farm becomes more and more difficult.

I make no apology for repeating to-day what I said on a previous occasion: the big producer is largely able to look after himself because when he reaches a stage that he is bringing to any factory in Ireland 100 pigs a week, or indeed 100 pigs a month, if he does not get a grade which roughly corresponds to the national average—70 per cent. Grade A, 20 per cent. Grade B—he has the effective remedy in his own hands. He can say to the factory with which he is dealing: "If that is the way you are going to grade my pigs I shall take them somewhere else." A supplier who is in a position to withdraw from a factory an appreciable fraction of its total turnover is in a position to bring pressure to bear on that factory to give him a satisfactory grade for his pigs. The man, however, who brings in two pigs, four pigs, six pigs or eight pigs and is given two Grade A out of eight, or five Grade B, or two Grade C or one Grade X has not only his heart but his pocket broken by such an experience. It is not surprising if he has one or two such experiences that he will throw his hat at the whole thing and get out, because feeding pigs is hard work.

Does it not all imply dishonest manipulation on the part of somebody?

I do not quite understand the purpose of that question. I do not think it need necessarily imply that. It could arise from sheer incompetence and I am now long enough in this world to realise that when I was young I saw everything in black and white. If something went wrong I promptly assumed it was due to wrongdoing. I have learned the painful lesson that a great deal of what goes wrong in this troubled world is due to sheer incompetence. Therefore if I wanted to answer Deputy Moher's question I would be constrained in honesty to say that 25 years ago I would have probably answered him enthusiastically: "Yes, the bacon curers are robbing the producer", but I am that much older and wiser now and I realise that there are probably three contributing elements to it: some dishonesty, a great deal of incompetence and some unjustifiable suspicion.

Yesterday the Minister bewailed that the Opposition criticised the Government heavily but never told them what they should do. My trouble is when I tell them what to do they go and do it, to my great political embarrassment, but I take the risk. If I wanted to approach this from a purely political angle I would thump the desk and say: "The people are being robbed" and that the Minister was in the conspiracy and probably politically it would suit me but for good or ill I got involved with the Department of Agriculture and when I am talking about the Department of Agriculture I cannot play politics.

It would not be honest.

Never mind that, it would be good politics, temporarily at least. Whether it is or not, I cannot play politics with the Department of Agriculture much as sometimes I might like to do so. I am saying that whatever the reason all the small pig producers are not the same age as Deputy Moher and myself and we want to bring the young, up-coming farmers into the pig production business with the enthusiasm we should like to see them bring to it. But having been reared amongst these people and having great sympathy with them I appreciate—and I believe the Minister knows this as well as I do— that there is a great deal of doubt and difficulty; doubt on the part of the small farmer whether he is getting a fair deal in the grading of his pigs. On the other hand I want to say that when I was Minister for Agriculture, I was conscious of the possibility of such a difficulty and I was casting around to find a means whereby I could effectively control grading in such a way as to carry conviction to the minds of the small farmers. Finally, having examined it from one angle and another I became satisfied that, as long as the Department's vet is there with a general responsibility for the general supervision of grading, no serious abuse was likely to develop.

What I learned painfully, however, was that although I might have satisfied myself as Minister for Agriculture that no serious abuse could develop so long as the Department vet had general supervision in regard to grading, I had not carried conviction to the small producer. If we want to get the degree of expansion that I believe everybody wants to see, we have got to carry conviction to the small producer and it is not going to be an easy thing to do. I should be quite prepared to be experimental in this matter. I remember when we had the flax agreement with Northern Ireland, we got a price fixed for flax according to five grades. You would have thought that to carry conviction to the farmers' minds that they were being dealt with fairly would have been impossible, but it was not. What we did was to appoint a grader; the Northern Ireland flax spinners also appointed a grader and there was provision for an arbitrator in any case where the two graders failed to agree.

I do not believe that out of thousands of cases of grading there were half a dozen appeals in the whole period the scheme was working because in fact farmers and spinners found the two men they had appointed knew their business and both of them knew that it was not much use trying to put something over the other because then one would say: "Let us not waste time arguing. I think it is grade 2 and you think it is grade 5; let it go to the arbitrator." After a very short time the whole thing worked like clockwork and I think I am right in recalling that during all that period I did not get from Monaghan, which was my constituency, or Cavan, or West Cork a half-dozen complaints that there was any impropriety in regard to the grading. I believe that if we set up some similar system of grading, even experimental, in certain factories —say in the factories in Connaught to begin with and extending to West Cork if it was found to work, but in a restricted area—it would be worth it.

If it were working for a while it might be discovered that it would then cease to be necessary. I do not say that is by any means certain but we might by experience find that after the suspicions and anxieties had been allayed, the need for it would cease for the reason that a great deal of bad grading results from bad feeding— not all of it. You can get a strain of pigs and no matter how carefully you feed them they will have fat on their backs. However, there is a strong tendency, of which I have protracted personal experience, among pig feeders to feed a pig up to the limit of his capacity to consume right up to the day before he is sent to the factory. It is terribly hard to persuade country people it is a good thing to ration a pig,

I feel a good deal of the bad grading is due to improvident feeding. If once these small farmers had conviction carried that the grading was fair there ought to be scope to bring the parish agent, if we had one, into the factory on killing days so that where a fellow got bad grading he could go to him and say: "Where did you get the bonhams or slips? Did you produce them yourself? If so, I should like to see the sow." If these are all right he could say "How is the feeding? You must be doing something wrong to get the grade you are getting." We could thus very quickly build up a valuable reform in the whole pig industry. It is often a source of astonishment to me that, particularly, a small factory catering for a restricted area have not found it worth while to do that for themselves. If I were a bacon curer in a restricted area I would employ a parish agent of my own.

Where a small farmer was getting bad grades I would say to him: "If I send out the parish agent here will you work with him?" I believe such problems could largely be resolved if that were done. That was what the parish agent did in the areas where we planted them. That is what poor Mr. Smith, who died last week, used to do although he was not a parish agent but a county committee of agriculture instructor. I believe it would be a pregnant source of great improvement in regard to this specific problem to which I now refer and which I cannot over-emphasise because I believe it goes to the root of the development referred to by the Minister today, namely, the decline in pig production in the west which I regard as a most deplorable development.

I do not want to underestimate the difficulties of control marketing. There is a case to be made. I think the case has been made for some kind of centralised marketing in Great Britain in order to prevent or to try to prevent the wild fluctuations which result in the price being fixed by the London Provision Exchange. But there is a difficulty here and it is one I should like to hear canvassed in the course of this debate.

There are a number of curers in this country who have trade connections in Great Britain going back over a century. That is one problem. There are a number of highly-enterprising curers who, finding that the sale of bacon through the wholesale channels in England has been unremunerative, have taken the trouble to go to England and to make individual contacts with specific wholesalers and with chains of retail distributors. There is no doubt that these curers have acquired contacts of incalculable value to the bacon industry of this country. I do not deny that their superior zeal in this matter is probably earning them a premium over the quoted price of the London Provision Exchange which is the basic price in calculating the export subsidy.

I remember we considered that question at the time we were working out the scheme for the export subsidy. My recollection is that we were all agreed that we wanted the bacon manufacturer to be put in a position to pay the producer the highest price he could afford to pay and that if he were in a position to go out and, by superior diligence, get a higher price than he would get by sending his bacon over for sale on the London Provision Exchange we should encourage that because if he got a little extra margin for himself in the vast majority of cases competition for supplies would make that filter through to the producer.

We all know that bacon factories employ people to buy supplementary supplies outside their own area, to the great advantage of pig producers in those areas who get 5/- or 6/- a cwt. more for their pigs, very largely because some of these curers are getting a premium on the market where they are trading. Accordingly they are extra-eager to maintain supplies of the raw material to their factory for fear they will fail to deliver bacon regularly to these special contacts they have made either in Great Britain or elsewhere. Are we now going to forbid them to maintain those? I should like to hear the Minister on that. I do not want to underestimate the difficulties. I can see the problem.

We have, too.

I can see the problem that if you are going to have a control market to operate centralised marketing the preservation of individual contacts will create very serious difficulty. There is a problem that if you try to do that the central marketing organisation will be left with all the dross and the choice stuff will go to the established marketing channels that the skilful curer has built up for himself. It is a great hardship on a man who has been enterprising and who has been urged to go out and seek out the best markets for Irish bacon, who did it and spent a good deal of money doing it, to be told now: "As from a certain date you will not be let——"

It is one of the things on which I feel strongly myself and think hard.

There is a real dilemma here. I do not think we should close our minds completely to some transitory experimental period in which at least we could examine whether some——

The commission could try to maintain these contacts. They could devise many ways in which they could be maintained.

I suppose that is true. I feel there is a dilemma and a hardship on the enterprising curer who has made the effort. As I understand, except for Wiltshire, Spencers and main cuts of that character, there is still scope to allow the curer to trade direct in respect of ham and picnic hams, even possibly in pre-packaged goods. Is not that so? But I am not certain that some way could not be found out of this dilemma. I would say with reluctance that if a practicable way could not be found out of it, I think the Minister would be justified in making the experiment of centralised marketing for the best interests of all concerned.

But there are strong views against it, I am bound to say in honesty. I believe that the experiment of central marketing requires to be made because we are faced with the fact that the Danes and the Dutch are using it and can rig the market against us with the immense supplies the Danes can dispose of. I think our hands are considerably weakened for the want of it. What I am afraid of is this. It is something that we ought to bear in mind. It may turn out to be the great advantage that some people think it is going to be. We ought to bear in mind that we are going to purchase it at a great price and the price we are going to pay is disruption of the existing trade content.

It would be utterly wrong that Oireachtas Éireann should legislate along these lines without realising the price we are going to pay. It would be utterly wrong for Oireachtas Éireann to legislate along these lines without realising that the specialised market contacts are not only the property of the bacon curers but at one remove they are the property of the pig producers because part of the exceptional profit to be derived from them does trickle back to the pig producers. The Department of Agriculture is always there to devise ways and means to make it more probable that at least a fair share of that supplemental profit will get back to the producer in the long run.

I had great difficulty in reaching a conclusion here for the position is really this. Such high hopes are built on central marketing as an effective instrument to meet Danish competition in the British market which is based on central marketing that I think we have got to give it a trial. But it is not going to solve all our problems. We are going to do it at a very great price if no means can be found to maintain, even for a temporary period, the existing personal contacts that exist. It is not going to solve all our problems by a long chalk.

I would ask the Minister to dwell specially in his concluding observations on whether there is any possibility of preserving to individual curers the right, even for a temporary period, to operate their own trade connections on the clear understanding that if that meant that central marketing was not going to get a fair chance, we would have to take the further steps. At the same time, it would have the advantage that we would not have irrevocably spent that precious asset of existing trade connections before being certain that the central marketing was going to do as much as some people believe it will. I said in opening that central marketing and the change in the personnel of the Pigs and Bacon Commission, in my opinion, is not going to do all that some people think it is going to do. A great deal more requires to be done.

There is one other constructive proposal I want to make to the Minister. I think he walked into a complete trap in regard to the personnel of the Pigs and Bacon Commission. I think I know well how it happened. He published proposals originally that there should be 2-2-2, two representing the producers, two the curers and two the Department. Then—I am only surmising; I can see how this happened—the curers came in and said there were always the big, medium and small curers: "You are giving us only two representatives. That will disrupt our organisation. There will be jealousy. It is impossible and it is not fair. After all, it is our business you are going to control and we ought to be fully represented." The Minister was pushed into saying: "Very well, have three so that there can be big, medium and small curers and I shall surrender one of mine on the Board and I shall call it 3-2-1," but he was quite wrong.

I venture to swear that only Mr. Parkinson was coming to Dublin to deliver a lecture on Parkinson's Law in Guinness's Brewery, the Department would have said: "Well, Minister, this always happens. If you have made up your mind and you think you must have three, do not let anyone dissuade you from having three." Apart from that it does not look well to create a great deal of malaise in the country. We want to get this thing off on the right foot. I know the Minister wants to keep the numbers small and he is right. If you are determined to give the curers three, you must give the producers three and we must have some representative of the Department of Agriculture who will have some regard to the general interest. That leaves us with one for the Department and the Chairman. That gives eight. Had I been Minister for Agriculture, I would have said that I would give the curers one, the producers one and myself one. That would be nine. Since I would be the only one who had a minority, it is I who would get all the blame and none of the credit. If the thing were a success the Pigs and Bacon Commission would get the credit and that would be the grandest thing that could happen.

I urge on the Minister, Mr. Parkinson notwithstanding, never to trust long-haired professors. They can work out beautiful theories in books but if you put them in charge of a callow chandler's shop they may make a shambles of it in three weeks. You can enjoy Parkinson's law as a week-end relaxation. Such judicious theorising looks neat and all the strings are tied up into beautiful bows. But in the practical affairs of men, the strings do not get tied up into beautiful bows; they always have bits and pieces hanging out of the end of them, and you have got to do the best you can. As the great political thinker, Tom Kettle, said: "In the art of politics, we are constrained with the reluctance of wisdom to accept not the second best but only too often the second worst, and thank God for it."

The Minister wanted a small efficient commission. The curers kicked. He has given way to them. For peace sake, for commonsense sake, let there be an equal representation of producers and curers on this commission. Do not hesitate to put on two representatives of the Minister, and the Chairman; that gives you nine. I agree it would be a better body if there were only seven on it, but there is not a Deputy who would not be a better man if he practised some virtues which he does not practise or abstained from some vices to which he occasionally gives way. That is human nature, and this is a human institution. It will be a very human commission, if I know anything about it. A commission with bacon curers and pig producers on it will be about the most human thing one could imagine. Let us make it human. There is luck in odd numbers.

I earnestly urge on the Minister that he should establish it on the basis of three, three, two, and the Chairman, for no other reason than that it should get a fair chance and a fair start. If that is not done, there will be a howl from the first day: "It is the curers' commission." That means it will never be given a fair chance to do the job it is being asked to undertake. If I had any sense politically, I would not refer to this at all. I would urge the Minister to stand rigidly on the proposals he has here.

I do not think that is right. That would not be my political judgment but, of course, I might be wrong; that is, trying to view it in the political sense.

Whether it is wise or foolish, I cannot do it. If you are going to give it a run and, if it is the child of the Minister for Agriculture, it ought to be given a fair run. It is not going to get a fair run so long as people call it the curers' commission. There is no objection to having extra representation, I suggest, and that extra representation will lay the ghost once and for all.

I welcome, as I said, the large producer. I set a special value on the small producer. I want to suggest to the Minister that there is scope for a very important development in this industry, a development which I do not think has ever got proper investigation and encouragement. I tried to encourage it once or twice myself, but I did not get very far and, where the experiment to which I am going to refer was in operation in one area, I do not think it was well done.

Bear in mind the great difficulty of the small producer is to finish the pig, because finishing the pig is a highly technical operation. I think there is great scope for central finishing depots, such as the co-operative societies in being, or some depots set up for the purpose of distributing specially selected sows and boars to their area of supply so as to get the right strain of pig into the area, giving the small producer the primary responsibility for breeding. Any good farmer who has a gift for pigs—it is not everybody who has-can feed a sow and, if he does not know how to feed a sow, he can learn. The sow will feed the bonham. If the farmers have properly constructed houses, and that is easy to arrange, the bonhams can be brought to ten weeks old. In the Minister's home county and my constituency, they bring them to 12 or 13 weeks. We bring them to 10 weeks. I am not sure whether it is at that stage or at the later stage when the bonham is a slip, that we ought to design their transfer to the central fattening station and finish them there. I believe that is the way you could effectively integrate into the increased production of bacon pigs the small farmers of this country. I think that development, if it were extensively promoted, would very quickly restore pig production to the west of Ireland and to those areas where we most earnestly desire to see it developed.

I remember when the poor Minister for Lands was starting Scéim na Muc, I told him he was barking up the wrong tree; it would be a flop, and he knew it would be a flop, if he knew anything about it. But it was as good a political stunt as any other. The Minister was down learning Irish in Aran. He was able to say "Scéim na Muc" and Deputy Davern was thrown into ecstasies of enthusiasm over a Gaelic scheme for pigs in the Gaeltacht.

There is something worth doing. We should promote the breeding of pigs amongst small farmers, give them the right kind of house to breed the pigs in where the bonham could be kept warm without tremendous expenditure, and help them to get the right class of stock, making it clear, above all, that when the pigs reach 10, 12 or 20 weeks, there is a buyer there who will take them and go through the process of finishing them. There will have to be some grading there, too, to ensure that the pigs will be in proper condition when they are brought forward to the central agency. That would relieve the factory of all this complex problem of grading into A, B, C, and X. It is an activity, I believe, the Department should promote through the medium of the co-operative movement, or by any other means that would be effective, because it would help the small producer back into this very necessary trade.

My gracious me, how much more rewarding it is to the small farmer to keep four or five sows rather than try to fatten five or six pigs. To somebody who likes pigs, keeping sows is not a bit more troublesome than keeping the fattening pig. There are ups-and-downs in it. It is true that sometimes you get a run of luck with sows, but if you had a properly organised scheme you could extend the benefit of insurance against loss of a sow in her litter, which can, of course, be a great catastrophe for a small producer. You cannot remove every hazard from agricultural operations but you can make them reasonably safe. In any case you can make it certain that the small producer will not run the risk of ruin if he enters the scheme enthusiastically.

If a small producer keeps five sows and each of these producers 20 bonhams in the year, that is 100 bonhams representing a cash income of approximately £500 a year for the keeping of five sow pigs. It would, of course, fluctuate between £400 and £600, according to luck and skill, but over the past 15 years, I have reared between nine and ten bonhams per sow, and I am no great expert at it. The experts would rather look down their noses at you if you reared less than ten bonhams per sow. They would tell you that you ought to rear twelve bonhams per sow. I sometimes think I would like to see them do it. However, it is true to say that if a person keeps five sows, it represents an income of from £400 to £600 per year. Of course, feed would have to be taken from that; but if you are feeding them on skim milk and barley grain, it could be produced on your own holding if you have 40 acres. That is a very good basic income on which a small man can start.

If he adds to that four calves a year, at the prices he used to get under the inter-Party Government and not the prices under a Fianna Fáil Government, plus the milk of his cows, he will not live on the standards of Mayfair, but he will live comfortably. If it is Mayfair he wants, he will not find it in Ireland. But I believe a great many of our people, if given an element of security in modest comfort, would prefer that to the amenities of Mayfair, Bootle and Birmingham. It is for these people that I long to see developments of the kind to which I now refer.

I built the first pig progeny testing station in this country in Cork. I had great hopes for it. I thought it was going to do wonders. Maybe it is doing wonders, I do not know, but I wish somebody would expound to me what exactly it is doing. I thought that out of that pig progeny testing station there would emerge, ultimately, a stream of steadily improving breeding material, which would spread out over the country and benefit everybody in the pig industry. Deputies are entitled to say to me: "Why did you not find out about this when you were Minister for Agriculture and had every facility for doing so?" My reply to them would be: "Did you ever talk to a man who is an expert on pig progeny testing? He would addle the mind of anyone other than an Einstein." They have managed to develop this whole business of progeny testing into so abstruse a mathematical abracadabra that it is practicably impossible to understand what they are talking about. I made an act of faith and I said: "Whatever the abracadabra is, their aim is the same as my aim, that is, to provide the farmers with a superior strain of pig, and let us go ahead with it."

It has been in operation now for four or five years. Maybe it has done us a lot of good. I hope it has, because I certainly urged the Government to spend a lot of money on it and I did it on the best possible advice. But I want to tell the Minister this: there is no institution in this country that more grievously lacks public relations than the pig progeny testing station in Cork. I read its reports regularly and I can make neither head nor tail of them. The only thing I ever learned from one of the reports was that they finally determined that one boar was of outstanding quality and was passing on the most striking qualities to its progeny. But when they dashed off to find him, they found he had been dead and buried 18 months before they reached him.

I do not want to say that is typical by any means of the activities of the progeny testing station, but I do say that, for the average intelligent person, to try to elucidate the significance of their reports is extremely difficult. It may well be that the skilled pedigree breeder, who is the prime source of breeding stock for the whole country, is in more intimate contact with the progeny testing station and more fully understands its problems, but it is to be borne in mind that it is the taxpayer at large who is paying for it. All my reading and experience led me to believe it was a good thing, but it is urgently in need of public relations. The people ought to be told what benefit is flowing from it.

I do not see Deputies leaping up around the House now as frequently as they used to talk about the Landrace pig. I seem to remember Deputy Davern used to be very fond of the Landrace pig. He used to be very critical of me because I was not enthusiastic for the Landrace pig. I was hindering and hampering the farmers of Tipperary from making the fortunes they could make, if they but had access to the Landrace pig.

I am afraid that is not the whole truth.

Is it not? Deputy Davern always allowed a grain of truth to creep into his more eloquent discourses on the Landrace pig from time to time. Did he inquire from any of his neighbours down there what they think of the Landrace pig?

It is going well. It is very nice on the table anyway, whatever it is like in the sty.

It does not so much matter what it is like on the table to the man producing it. How it does in the sty is what matters to him. I understand it tends to become an old and ancient retainer. I remember when this House used to ring with the passionate denunciations of the Fianna Fáil Deputies that the farmers were being ground down and oppressed——

I have a good memory and I never remember it.

I remember day after day with nothing but the Landrace pig.

If the Landrace pig was let in, a poor day would never be seen again.

The Deputy is referring to the N. F. A,

I am referring to the Fianna Fáil Deputies here.

It is nice to reminisce over those happy days of yore. When Fianna Fáil were over here, everything was clear as crystal. Open the portals of Ireland to the Landrace pig and release the golden deluge.

I do not want to peruse the records of the House, but honestly, I think that is a complete overstatement. I do not know whether any of the agriculturists in the Party were really interested in the Landrace pig.

Would the Minister include Deputy Davern in the agriculturists?

I would not, now.

That did not silence him in the good old days. He had great faith in a branch in Gortnahoe. He would repair to the branch at Gortnahoe and he would thunder there about letting in the Landrace pig.

That is where the Deputy's foolish policy was exposed.

Yes, at Gortnahoe. Right enough, I am sure he deluged the country with the Landrace pig. He is not so enthusiastic for it now. We set out at the progeny testing station to try to get strains of pigs for the Large White and I think there are some Landrace under test there also, pigs that will give the farmers a decent average return. Maybe they have got them, but, if that is so, I hope the Minister will take early occasion to explain to people how it has happened. It is certainly eminently desirable. Nothing is more important than that the strain of pig, in addition to the breed, should be the best that can be provided and it is the clear duty of the Department of Agriculture to do its part in getting the best strain made available to the people as a whole.

I think the Minister is fully entitled on the occasion of legislation of this kind to send for the curers and to ask them what are they prepared to do about it. I do not see why the curers in their own areas should not be distributors of the right type of sow, the potential breeders, if the right type of sow can be identified through the progeny testing station. I think the curers have a very grave obligation to help producers in the areas where they operate to get the right type of sow and to provide the grade to the farmers who want to get sows and to get into the business. I believe if that case were put to them sufficiently strongly, they could be induced to do it. I think some of them did but the tendency was, after they embarked on schemes of that kind, to let them fade away, to lose interest. I think the Minister could very properly point out to them that they should interest themselves in that matter again.

I want to recall that the Minister states on Page 2 of his statement:

The present guaranteed minimum prices of 245/- per cwt. dead-weight for Grade A Special pigs, and 230/- per cwt. for Grade A pigs, are I think accepted as reasonably remunerative for producers ...

The worst thing the Minister ever did since he came back on this occasion was the reduction of the guaranteed price from 235/- to 230/-, in 1957. I think he did more to knock the heart out of the producers by that futile gesture than anything he had done in the previous 20 years. It spread panic amongst producers and persuaded them that there was always the danger, if they really got production going again, that even the Minister for Agriculture would take a swipe at them and, the price having been guaranteed at 235/-, that would be the first object of a futile silly economy of that kind because they were the most vulnerable. Probably, the Minister is wiser today than he was then, but I think it ought to be made perfectly clear that we intend to keep the price of pigs stable in relation to the cost of feedingstuffs and that for anybody who engages in it skilfully, there is a reasonable living and that we are interested in any proposal from any producer to produce bonhams, slips or finished pigs and that persons who want to enter into a combination to produce slips and who do not feel equipped to go beyond that will have sympathetic consideration from the Department and every co-operation to help them in marketing the slips to fattening centres where that could be arranged, as in most cases I believe it could.

Now I want to return to another very important aspect of this whole industry. I can remember the time when I was young when thousands and thousands of live pigs were shipped from this country every year. Those shipments comprised not only pigs suitable for conversion into Wiltshire bacon but also Birmingham cutters, porkers and other varieties of pig. But what was immensely important was that that outlet for pigs provided an outlet for relatively stout pigs that were not ideal for conversion into Wiltshire bacon. Is there no hope of reviving that trade by agreement with the British Ministry of Food and Agriculture? I think it certainly is worth inquiry because it was a very valuable outlet in the past and I believe it could become a very valuable outlet in the future.

I am astonished at the decline in our export of fresh pork. When I first was a member for Monaghan, the fresh pork trade was a very large and valuable trade and it seems to have largely disappeared. It was a trade, I think, largely based on suckers, very young pigs. I do not know why it has disappeared and with the improving methods of refrigerated transport now available, one would imagine that it ought to be a growing trade. I should be glad to hear from the Minister if there is any prospect of the revival and expansion of that trade.

I would not think this Bill is going to precipitate any very dramatic revolution in the marketing of pigs. I do not believe that, standing alone, it will do very much one way or another to the industry as a whole. It is an experiment which has to be made. It is vitally important, if we are to give it any chance of success, that it should be attended by a marked expansion in our output of pigs, because no central marketing organisation could hope for any degree of success if it has not got a sustained volume of production to assure potential consumers in England that there will be a regular supply of Irish bacon on the British market.

In the past, 90 per cent. of our problems were created by the inconsistency of the supply of bacon from Ireland. We were in the market in one week and out of it the following week. We had abundance of meat to supply the market only too often when the market was overstocked or else when demand was poor and then, when the demand became strong and the price steeply rose, only too often there was no Irish bacon available for sale there at all. Therefore, if this departure is to have any prospect of success, an essential postulate is that there should be a vastly expanded output.

I am prepared to say that this experiment requires to be made and we will not oppose this Bill but I am anxious and worried about the price we are being asked to pay for this experiment. I am not without hope that it may yet be possible to permit curers with established contacts in the British market to continue to operate them at least for an experimental period, so that, if central marketing proves less helpful than we hope, we can fall back on the established channels of trade, whereas, on the other hand, if central marketing provides an abundant market for all that we are in a position to produce, it is demonstrably a lesser hardship on those who have established contacts to surrender them to the central marketing body, provided they are guaranteed that there will become available to them alternative and equally valuable outlets under the central marketing machinery which it is sought to set up under this Bill.

That is all I have to say on this Bill. I do not want to conclude without saying that the experiment ought to get a fair chance. It is not going to get it on the basis of three, two and one in the personnel. With my blessing, the Minister should make it three, two and a chairman and to hell with three, Parkinson's Law.

I should like to place on the records of this House that I deny emphatically that I ever, in this House or outside it, stated that the Landrace pig was the ideal pig for this country. It just shows the reliance that can be placed on Deputy Dillon's statements.

I was just pulling the Deputy's leg. He need not get worried.

Major de Valera

In this solemn Assembly?

Yes, and the Landrace pig is not as bad as all that.

I never advocated a bob a gallon for milk as the Deputy did.

There is considerable interest in this measure particularly in the areas of the country which have a traditional record in heavy pig production. It is worthy of note that one-fifth of all the pigs marketed in this country are produced in County Cork. Anything that would assist in the provision of markets which would guarantee to the producer protection from the variations to which he was subjected in years gone by is to be welcomed.

I want to add my voice to the appeal made by Deputy Dillon to the Minister to remove the lack of faith on the part of the producers in the proposal to create this new marketing organisation, by asking him to reconsider his decision regarding the weight of representation of producers in that body. It will be detrimental to the future of this body if the producers are not satisfied they have fair representation and they are entitled at least to equal representation on this body with any other group.

I can understand why those who are engaged in the business, particularly some reputable family concerns with a long history of acquired knowledge and experience in marketing in Britain and elsewhere, should feel that the impact would be greater on them than on any other section of the people and that they should have stronger representation. But they are only one party involved in this problem. Numerically and in importance the producers are paramount and if you have not got the support of the producers behind that project then it will get off to a very doubtful start.

I would appeal to the Minister to increase the representation of the pig producers on this body. If he does not do that I believe co-operation will not be forthcoming. We do know, whether there is substance for it or not, there is very grave criticism of the system of grading as it operates today in many of our bacon factories. It is vital that the producer should have his faith restored not alone in the future of the industry but in the day-to-day working of our bacon factories. If these producers are called upon to act on this board in a minority group they will from the word "go" be actuated by an inferiority complex which cannot but be detrimental to the progress that we all hope will attend any effort to improve the marketing of our pigs and bacon.

We hope this effort will be successful. It is worthy of a chance. However, I can recall with considerable feeling the frustration experienced in my locality when another effort was made by private enterprise to establish a concern which would, in effect, have done what this Bill is intended to do. I was one of a small group that secured the interest of one of the most reputable firms in Holland. They actually came on the site, were prepared to establish a bacon factory, were prepared to give credit to the farmers within a radius of 20 miles and to send out lecturers, before we had the assistance that the farmers now have from the increased number of agricultural advisers now available. That private company was prepared to do that and we had the benefit of the fact that they were restricted in their output in the country of their origin because of the limitation of supplies to them and the markets that they could not meet from that country, markets in three continents. They looked to a location in the centre of Munster as an ideal one for the development of such an industry.

The Fianna Fáil Minister for Agriculture at that time denied them a licence, not the Minister now occupying that office. Whatever powers were responsible for the refusal to license the factory at Millstreet dealt a very hard blow to the pig industry, because among the men who were investing heavily in that concern was a man with some 700 bacon shops in Britain alone who was prepared to sell the products of that concern in that country. With his money invested in an Irish company giving the facilities it intended to give, surely it was to be expected that he and his colleagues would ensure that the products of that firm would be marketed in such a great market as was then available in Britain.

That is to some extent crying over spilt milk or over bacon that was not produced. It was regrettable that it did not succeed but the difficulties presented by the Minister's Department at the time were such as to vitiate completely any efforts that were made to have that industry established. It was an ideal location and its establishment would have meant a tremendous upsurge in local production, a tremendous improvement in the incomes of the small farmers who resided in that area and who had a very long tradition in pig production and in pig feeding. It was a very great opportunity that was missed and we can only hope the current effort will remedy some of the misdeeds of the past, including the reduction from 235/- to 230/- in the guaranteed price for Grade A bacon which I regard as having been unwarranted. Whatever principles guided the Minister in his decision, they were very ill-advised.

I am glad that in recent times, in the constituency I represent, we are responsible for a very great pioneering project in the Lombardstown co-operative development. It is indicative of what people can do when they join together for the common good. I know the Minister visited the concern, saw it in operation and no doubt was impressed by what he saw. I am glad the grants for the erection of piggeries were amended to give some little support to similar concerns so that they may be extended throughout the country. I referred to the location of this pioneering industry. I hope it will be as successful as another pioneering project of the adjoining creamery society, that of the Ballyclough Society which in its own time was responsible for the pioneering of artificial insemination— quite some time before it received the blessing of the Department and before it was adopted and extended as it now is throughout the State. I wish this concern well and hope the efforts that the committee and their able manager, Mr. Ryan, have put into the launching of this project will be attended by the success they merit.

As the leader of the Opposition has indicated, we are not opposing this Bill because we think it should be given an opportunity of improving the marketing conditions for the producers of pigs. The improvement in the standard of bacon that we have experienced in the past six or seven years can be attributed principally to the guaranteed price in relation to feeding barley. In my area, which is traditionally pig feeding but is also traditionally dependent on imported grain for feeding pigs, the quality of the bacon produced nowadays is far above that of the time when we were feeding pigs mainly on imported grain. The land in the area was incapable of growing the type of barley required for pig feeding.

I must stress at this stage that it is an impediment to people producing pigs if such ancillary schemes as ground limestone, drainage and land reclamation are not pursued with the vigour of former years. If the effort is not renewed it will make it more difficult for pig producers in areas where it is difficult to produce feeding barley. I regard any slow-down in this matter as being detrimental to the industry. That must be done side by side with any efforts we make to provide markets abroad. In the past few years, there has been a trend away from that development. If there are pockets in the country where farmers find difficulty in growing grain for pig feeding, there should at least be an effort made to help them, by grants for transport, to have imported into their areas grain from other areas in the country where it is possible to grow it easily. Ultimately it might be possible, through the schemes I have mentioned, to improve the land in areas where they cannot now grow feeding barley, to such an extent that expenditure on such transport would become superfiuous.

It is for those reasons that I intervened to say we were prepared to support this Bill. At the same time, I would stress our anxiety on this side of the House that there be increased representation for the producers on the board. Much of the good in the Bill will be undone, unless that representation is assured. We should get it off to a good start and ensure the success of the Bill by seeing that the people most interested in the prosperity of the pig production industry—the small farmers—are given equitable representation on the board.

Any improvement effected in the pig industry will undoubtedly be reflected in the country's economy more than any other encouragement that can be given to any other branch of agriculture. It is well-established that the people engaged in the production of pigs are the quickest to react to any encouragement from the Government. We must ensure that when they have so reacted, they will not be faced with impediments instead of being encouraged by benefits. We hope the Minister will reconsider his action in reducing the price by 5/- per cwt. and also the slackening in other measures of encouragement to pig breeders to continue with their efforts. I would ask the Minister particularly to give urgent consideration to increasing the representation of the producers on the new board.

I want to start by telling the Minister that I could keep him here until 5 o'clock on subjects such as this. I had to endure much from the predecessors of the board the Minister is now proposing to set up. As the Minister was not then Minister for Agriculture, I am obliged to draw his attention to some of the things that happened in those days. Pig feeders were passing through very troublesome times, losing a good deal of money. They were told a Pig Marketing Board was to be set up and that the new board then would take office in 1935. That board, or rather a commission, was set up with representatives of the pig producers and the bacon curers. At that time, the pig producers had the idea that, having been given proper representation on the commission, the people they represented would come well out of it. The records show the result.

I should like to refer the Minister to the report of the body then set up to inquire into the pig industry, including hams and gammons. It was a very interesting report, dealing with the deliberations of the Commission in 1937 and 1938. There were representatives of the pig producers on that Commission; the curers were also on it. When that Commission was formed, one of the principal representatives of the bacon curers said: "Thank God, this senseless competition is all gone". In 1934, the excess profits of the bacon curers were taken to be approximately £10,000. That may not sound a great deal now but it was a lot then and we were getting only 50/- for a fat pig. The standard profit of the bacon curers went up and, in 1935, the excess profit was £39,000. I am not objecting to bacon curers making a good profit but when it comes to making excess profit, I do not like it. I did not like it then because I was contributing to it and I could not afford to do so.

In 1936, the excess profit was £207,000. I mentioned that in this House before and I was challenged that it was wrong by a Minister who is dead and I shall let him rest, but there is the figure on page 25 of this report. In 1937, the excess profit was £52,000. During that time, we had three pig producers on the board with three bacon curers and we see where the pig producers got.

We had two boards in 1937. We had the Bacon Board composed of curers entirely and the Producers Board composed of producers entirely.

But you had the Pigs Marketing Board.

There was no joint board at that time.

There it is. Then we set up the Pigs Marketing Commission which, after about a year of its operation, resulted in a situation in which we had to buy fat pigs in Ulster and bring them to the bacon curers of Waterford, Cork and Dublin because our producers had gone out of business so fast. I am not blaming anybody——

The Deputy is enlarging the scope of the debate on this Bill, which relates mainly to the marketing of bacon for export.

Yes, marketing led to it. Deputy Dillon said that the people should be convinced that the grading is all right. I say now, and I say it with responsibility, that the grading is all right now but it was not all right then. The methods used by the curers were not all right and that has left a stigma ever since and that is one of the difficulties the Minister must face.

Deputy Dillon seemed to be agreeing or saying that we should have centralised marketing of bacon by this Commission. I disagree with that and I shall tell the Minister why. There are many small curers in the country who have gone to Britain on their own initiative and have secured good customers for their bacon and that bacon is going through the ports of Waterford and Dublin but not going to London. It is going direct to wholesalers in eastern and midland counties of England and to the owners of chain shops. I know that; I have experience of it.

Centralised marketing will do away with that and I should be afraid, and I think this is one of the Minister's fears, that the large curers would get too much of a grip on the market and on the marketing board and on the whole system and that the small curers would go out of business. When the small curers go out of business, competition goes. It is very important that there should be competition. It will be said to the Minister that all the difficulty we have is that we have no continuity of supply. If you have a small curer supplying a consignment of bacon or hams to his customers, he will endeavour to maintain that supply and when a time comes when pigs are scarce, he will send out a buyer to secure the pigs. With the advertisement that we read in the papers when you have four or five bacon curers advertising for pigs at practically the same prices all round, you will read of some market or fair, or of the Dublin market, where pigs made some 10/- or 12/- more than the factory-quoted prices. That is the reason why. Some small curer wanted a supply and he sent out a man to buy them.

If you bring in centralised marketing, you will give more control to the bacon curer. It might be said that I should be the last to mention this because two of the biggest bacon curing establishments in the country are in my constituency. I prefer to be fair about this and to deal with it from the producers' point of view. I do not think that the commission or the marketing system it would set up, if marketing were centralised, would maintain the contacts with these people. I have no respect for that kind of centralised selling because the men who would be in it are not responsible in the same way as they would be to their own employers, if they had to go out and look for the markets.

This Bill will also do away with something else. The small curers, when going into the British market with their bacon and when their travellers are on the road, are also making it their business to sell specialised pig products. The more specialised these products are, the more money there is in it for the bacon curers concerned and therefore the more they have in hand to pay out in competitive times to producers. I ask the Minister to consider this carefully because it is a most dangerous step to centralise the marketing of our pig and bacon products.

There are forgotten men involved in this. There are some people in Ireland who are buying pigs for bacon curers and pork butchers. I am sure there were some of them in the Dublin market yesterday to buy the 1,500 or 1,600 pigs there. They are of some value to the country and with centralisation here, if the live pig trade changed—and it could change; something we might not be able to anticipate could happen—we could compete with the Danes in the British market if the prices for live pigs were better. We were once able to supply bacon factories with a quantity that often kept them working overtime and, at the same time, we were able to ship hundreds of thousands of live pigs to England. I shall be told that it would be better to have them processed in our own factories but I say "No"; these were heavy, specialised pigs which were sent over to be used for other purposes where there is a big population to consume pig meat. I have figures before me that show we were able to export 314,000, 307,000, 408,000 and 476,000 live pigs in four successive years. They are just wiped out.

I consider that all the people concerned, and especially those on the selling end, should be represented on the board and the Minister should consider offering a seat on the board to the pig buyers. I do not agree with Deputy Dillon when he says that the smaller the board, the more efficient it will be. I would prefer to have the board more representative.

The Minister mentioned the pork producers in his county. In his county, they were great producers of pork and it was often surprising that the small farmers of Cavan, a county with such a small acreage, could produce such an enormous amount of pork pigs in the season. I was glad to hear the Minister mention that we are back again in the pork trade in England in a small way, but from the note I took, I gather that what is being sent is saving a subsidy of, say, £38,000.

Another reason I should speak on this is the importance of the pig industry to the small producer and the small farmer. To get a small farmer into dairy cows or cattle will cost big money and the majority have not got the big money but he can get into pigs with a small amount of money.

To go back to what I said when I started, it is important that the producers should have strong representation on the board to make sure that they are protected.

The board is set up to sell bacon.

The Deputy is an awful man. The board was set up to sell bacon before but the farmers had to pay for it with the excessive profits the bacon curers were able to get out of it. If you are going to put the selling of all that bacon into the hands of a group, you are going to find yourself out in the cold. They will say: "This is the price and you will take it."

There is a guaranteed price.

There is a guaranteed price. Is it not better to be getting 10/- or 15/- more? It is a guaranteed minimum price and you will always be stuck to it. I am not making politics out of this; I am making reason. A lot of money was taken out of my pocket as a pig producer under this. I know what I am talking about. I am the political opponent of the Minister for Agriculture but I am at one with the Minister for Agriculture and Deputy Moher and I know that the Minister for Agriculture wants to do what I am saying. Deputy Dillon mentioned barley and so on, and there should be a watch kept on the price of feeding stuffs and even though it might be a little outside the scope of this Bill——

I do not think it would arise on this.

Very well. The Minister said that the number of pigs going to the factories was 1,298,000. That shows how great this industry is and how careful we should be and how much more discussion there should be on this proposal. I am not speaking here to thwart the Minister or make little of his Bill, but in an effort to help him.

In summing up, I say that I would not take the step of centralising the marketing of our bacon or handing it over to a central body and wiping out all the contacts the various producers, big and small, have made. I would not have a board with more representation for the curers than for the producers. I would not have the board without a representative of the Pig Buyers Association, the people who are buying five thousand to ten thousand pigs a week. They have some rights and should have representation on it, just the same as the men in the special cream trade who put their case to the Minister when he brought in the recent Milk Bill.

I am not saying this in any spirit of carping criticism, but in regard to the grading of pigs, I got a terrible scarifying when the grading of pigs started first. As the years passed and the whole business became a little more rational, many people could see the importance of grading pigs. We all agree on that but what is damning the whole grading system is that the farmer feels that some pigs are getting a bad grading. That may be his own fault: they may not have had the right feeding, or perhaps may not have been the right breed, but what makes the farmer annoyed is that if he goes into his grocer some time afterwards to buy bacon, he buys fat bacon and pays a good price for it. Then he considers that the curer, the grocer or someone else, has done him.

I notice that the Danes put a mark in their bacon, right from the neck down to the ham. They advertise in the English papers that, when buying Danish bacon, you will always find this mark on each rasher. I suggested this before. I suggested it to Deputy Dillon, when he was Minister for Agriculture, and to the present Minister and I am suggesting it again. When bacon is graded as Grade A, then the A should be rolled down the whole length. If it is Grade A special, all right, and if it is Grade B all right, and if it is X, let the X be rolled down on it. People may say it is a lot of trouble but it is not. If you go in and see the bacon being processed, you will see that the man has this roller which is heated up inside and which burns out the number of the grade.

I support Deputy Dillon when he says the pig progeny stations need better public relations and better publicity. I would not like the Minister to have central marketing and I want the producers to have the majority on the Board. I should like the Minister to consider my suggestion that the pig buyers should have a seat on the board.

With a figure of 70 per cent. between Grade A and Grade A Special given by the Minister in his introductory statement, I think there is little room left for the kind of suspicion which we would all like to propagate in relation to the honesty or dishonesty of bacon curers in grading. That figure of 70 per cent. definitely rules out anything that would tend to be wholesale dishonesty on the part of the curers in the grading of bacon.

When we come to consider bacon, we must consider pigs and pig production because bacon is the end-product. I have no illusions about the problems facing this new board. Breed is a factor in the ultimate grading of bacon. We started the progeny-testing of pigs four or five years ago. It was started by the Danes as far back as 1906. It is obvious we have considerable leeway to make up before we can draw even with these people in pig production.

At one time, I was a great believer in the large pig-feeding unit. I often thought these large pig-feeding units should have been developed as subsidiaries in many of our creameries. I am not so happy about it now, with the experience of a few years ago when we had an outbreak of swine fever here. If we had a very large number of these pig-feeding units, one could imagine the chaos and the losses that would accrue in a widespread outbreak of swine fever. Everything possible should be done to encourage the small producer and to keep him in business.

We all welcome the introduction of piggery grants. They will go some distance in bringing back the interest in pig production which the small producer seemed to have lost. I cannot understand or find any logical reason for, as announced by the Minister, pig production falling so noticeably in areas such as the west of Ireland. If any form of production is suited to the small holder, surely it is pig production. The pig producer now has a guaranteed price for Grade A pigs. He is not subject to the fluctuations and vagaries of the pig market as he was prior to the introduction of this measure.

We should all like to see a stronger representation for producers on this new board. The producer has a guaranteed price, to a very large extent, and any complaint he may have of not having an overriding voice in the sale of bacon is neutralised by this. We have suffered in the main British market for a number of reasons. Our production of bacon has been of a seasonal type; our production of winter bacon has been low. That is one of the main disabilities under which we suffer. We cannot create a market for a product, unless we create a taste for it and we cannot create a taste for any product, unless we can guarantee that product to the purchaser in the retail shops for the whole round of the year.

Like strawberries.

There is no comparison between bacon and strawberries. That is one of the disabilities from which we suffer. One has only to study the marketing methods of our opponents in order to measure their effects. In Great Britain, you will find a Danish wholesale society in or adjacent to large built-up areas. It is a huge selling organisation. I was in one of them on one occasion and the employment content of that one agency was 112 persons. Their job is to keep Danish products for 52 weeks of the year in the retail shops of Great Britain. Their job is to receive complaints from people who are vital— the housewives—in relation to any Danish product and to shuttle these complaints back to the source of origin for investigation.

The average consumption of bacon in the United Kingdom is 10,000 tons a week. The British producer provides something like one-third of the requirements of that market per week. The Danes have a greater portion of that market than the British producer. They have achieved that position by constantly studying the needs and requirements of the British consumer.

The striking feature about the Danish sides of bacon hanging in the big wholesale depots is their absolute similarity. One would need a calipers to find variation between one side and another. The uniformity of the grading and of the cured bacon is astonishing. Again, these selling centres are able to anticipate the market. What we do not realise is that quite a lot of the Danish bacon consumed in Great Britain is exported green to two huge smoke plants which they have— one at Hull and the other in York-shire. The bacon is smoked. Smoked bacon is inclined to deteriorate in cold storage. For that reason the market is kept supplied with bacon from the smoked plants.

We have no comparable organisation. We suffer from the disability that our sale of bacon has, in the main, been to 14 or 15 agents. These agents were not concerned about maintaining supplies in any given area. They had a job to do and that was to sell the bacon, get rid of the bacon. They were not concerned about the maintenance of supply or about such vital factors as the type of bacon. Their main job was to sell the bacon which we sent over to them.

The sale was haphazard. The supply was haphazard and I often thought that for the volume of bacon which we produce it would be far better for us to make sure that we would maintain the supply as well as the quality in a given area over the entire 52 weeks of the year. I once remember discussing the position with the manager of one of these Danish selling units and I shall never forget one comment which he made. That was that we had, as far as the sale of our produce in the British market was concerned, an overall advantage in that we had our own people there to eat it.

We had Imperial preference.

Again, we have fallen down as far as advertising is concerned. It is nothing unusual for the Danes to have a Danish week. Recently, Córas Tráchtála organised Irish weeks but long before we had Córas Tráchtála or any such organisation, the Danes had their Danish week. One watching British television could not but be amazed at the expenditure on advertising Danish bacon. We had nothing at all comparable. We had nothing to compete with that form of advertising. As a matter of fact, it probably would not pay for the amount we had to sell.

I think the Minister said in his statement that our contribution represents something like five per cent. of that total market of 10,000 tons per week. Let us hope that the new selling organisation will at least do something——

"Do something" is right.

The success of their job will in the main depend very much upon the uniformity and the quality of the bacon which will be produced by the producers in this country and primarily by the type of bacon produced by the farmers breeding and feeding their sows in the production of bacon. Curing is a factor. Uniformity in the product is a factor also. I have the suspicion that many of our small bacon factories do not produce a first class product. Many of them are equipped with machinery which, I believe, is obsolete and out of date.

These are the factors we have got to face. There is no use trying to minimise them. There is no use saying that we do not agree with the central selling organisation. If we are going to make any impact on that market, we will have to have an efficient central selling organisation. We can only get that type of organisation from the kind of Board envisaged in this Bill. If you want to argue in the opposite direction, the failure of many of our bacon factories to go into the export market and attempt to sell is the most damning evidence against them. We know that we have to provide some type of organisation that would at least be as efficient and as good a selling organisation as that which we have got to face in competition from the Dutch and the Danes.

I welcome this Bill. I think it is high time that we took the necessary steps to sell our bacon in the British market to the best advantage. I appreciate that we shall sell only the best. No doubt, if we are to maintain the market, we must continue the supply. We hope to do that as farmers by proper management, proper breeding of sows and proper feeding.

From the farmers' point of view, we hope to get proper grading from the factories. I referred to the fact on the Supplementary Estimate that small farmers oftentimes felt that they were not getting the proper grading in the factories. I believe that the farmer who produces 100 pigs a week will always get reasonable satisfaction but it is the small man, who cannot afford to go to the factory to see his pigs being weighed, who is the victim of circumstances, whereas the big man will get the benefit of the doubt and possibly get Grade A. The small man, on the other hand, will possibly get Grade B.

I think the grading of pigs in the factories should be carried out by an independent inspector. I hope that one of the first steps this new commission will take will be to appoint their representative in the factory to grade the pigs. At present it is done by the factory management themselves. It is only human nature if they favour themselves in the grading. Very often, it is detrimental to the interests of the producer. Having graded the pigs, I feel that the consumer is entitled to get the grade with which the pig was marked. Every pig graded should have the stamp of that grade on his back or shoulder, whether it is Grade A, Grade B or Grade C. When the farmer is paid for Grade B or Grade C, I hold that the consumer is entitled to get bacon at the price of the brand received from the bacon factory.

Debate adjourned.
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