When this debate was adjourned nearly two weeks ago, I had been referring to the question of the import duty on man-made fibre contained in clothing exported from this country to Great Britain and I was joined with other Deputies, Deputy Norton in particular, who asked the Minister when replying to this debate to give some indication of the progress that had been made in the talks which had been going on between representatives of his Department and the British Board of Trade for almost three years. That duty bears very heavily on the clothing manufacturers in this country who are endeavouring to build up an export trade in Great Britain. I am particularly interested because Limerick City is a very large centre for the manufacture of clothing. We have three large clothing factories in Limerick which between them give employment to about 800 or 900 workers. Any easement in this imposition on man-made fibres would certainly lead to a great expansion in the manufacture of clothing and exports to Great Britain.
I should like also to urge the Minister, if progress has not been made to date, to do everything in his power to try to get this evil levy removed from man-made fibre. It is a fact that even if the content of man-made fibre, which is nylon or artificial silk, amounts to a mere five per cent., duty is charged on the complete value of the garment. I do not know how this duty originated but I imagine it was probably to keep out the importation of Japanese man-made fibre into Britain. If that was the original reason for imposing this levy, I suggest to the Minister that that reason has long passed and with the great necessity of developing the trade between this country and Great Britain, to our mutual advantage, the Minister should have a very strong case with the British authorities for the removal of this levy.
The Minister made reference to the expansion of Irish Steel Holdings, Ltd. He mentioned that some £3 million would eventually be expended in bringing the steel mills there up to the most modern standards. I should like to ask the Minister if, having regard to the developments which are pending in regard to the introduction of a wider free trade area in Europe, in which I feel we must take our place, these plans would require to be altered or amended in any way. While it does seem a substantial sum of money, in the light of the huge capital expenditure which the British steel mills and Continental steel mills are making, £3 million is a comparatively small sum. I wonder if the Minister is satisfied that with the expenditure of £2 million or £3 million we will be in a position to compete with the huge steel mills in England and the Continent under conditions of free trade?
If it were to the advantage of Irish Steel Holdings, I would not hesitate to look for some form of association with one of the large British steel mills or even one of the Continental groups. It is obvious that, in this new wider free trade area, heavy industry such as the manufacture of steel cannot hope to survive unless it is on a very substantial scale and has the requisite capital to support its activities.
I should like to think that the Minister is keeping an open mind on the question of a possible association with a larger group either in Great Britain or on the Continent. I have no doubt that Irish Steel Holdings run their business very efficiently but I do suggest that the conditions which may face them in, possibly, a year or two, may be such that their present set-up may not be able to contend with these developments. I would have no hesitation in suggesting to the Minister that if an offer or suggestion was made to him by any established and large group in the steel industry he should give very careful consideration to it.
I know we all like to believe that our own native steel industry would be able to retain its identity in competition with the whole world but we must have regard to the factors which may face us in these free-trade developments which are very much on the horizon. We are living in an era of amalgamations and take-overs and we must have regard to the realities of the situation, as I am sure the Minister will, if the necessity does arise.
The Minister also made reference to the grass meal project at Bangor Erris. It would appear that, to date anyway, the progress has been very modest indeed. When the Bill to set up the new company was introduced two years ago, I was one of those who opposed this development. I am still of the same mind. We have enough grass-drying projects in the country to cater for the limited home demand and also to cater for a very uncertain export market and the intrusion of a State-sponsored company into a field that has been catered for adequately and efficiently by private enterprise up to now was a wrong step. In saying that, I should like it to be understood that I would be completely in favour of any developments to grow grass on the boglands in the West of Ireland and would certainly support any suggestions of the Minister for funds to continue this experiment. I think it is a very worthwhile one and I am quite sure would give reasonable employment in the course of being carried out.
The Minister also mentioned the steps which he had taken in connection with a Buy Irish Campaign. I would suggest to the Minister that we have passed the stage now for a Buy Irish Campaign, that with the wider free trade area in the offing the Minister might turn his energies to a Sell Irish Campaign. It is now more than ever necessary that this country should expand rapidly its exports of both industrial and agricultural goods.
The Minister has referred to the economic expansion we have witnessed over the past two or three years. Certainly that has been very encouraging and I think everyone in the Dáil, irrespective of political affiliations, will wish the Minister and the Government well in their efforts to expand the gross national product.
In giving these figures, encouraging as they are, over the past few years, I thing it only right that we should compare them with the figures of the other countries comprising the O.E.E.C. group. If we do that, we find a more realistic assessment of the progress we have made. We have made good progress—there is no question about that—but compared with other small European countries, we still have a long way to go, even having regard to the fact that we are starting behind the point they have already reached. I think that would illustrate the necessity of stepping up our own production and our rate of economic expansion to an even greater degree. I suggest, as I did during the Budget debate, that the target of two per cent. per annum visualised in the Government White Paper Economic Expansion is now out of date. We would want to aim at a figure certainly not less than five per cent. and possibly even higher.
I am glad that in his speech, while paying tribute to the part played by outside industrialists in the recent industrial expansion, the Minister also paid tribute to our Irish industrialists for the part they are playing. We sometimes tend to forget that the whole basis of our prosperity—and when I say "prosperity," I mean lasting prosperity—must in the final analysis depend on what we ourselves do with our own resources, both human and financial. That is why I think the Minister should do everything he can to ensure that there is no differentiation in the encouragements, both financial and fiscal, given to outside interests and those which our own people can enjoy.
I know it has been suggested time and again that native industrialists can get the same benefits as outside industrialists coming in to set up a factory here. That is true to a limited extent only. As I mentioned in the course of the Budget debate, any lowering of costs by Irish manufacturers or industrialists, even if they cater for the home market only, is a contribution to bringing down the overall costs of manufacture in this country. I think it should be regarded from that point of view. After all, if a manufacturer of, say, feeding stuffs can bring down the cost of pig feeding, for the sake of argument, by £1 or £2 per ton, he is contributing to sending out Irish bacon at a more economic figure than that at which it could be sent out if he could not bring down the cost by that amount. It would be well if the Minister regarded the overall picture from that point of view.
The Minister spoke at some length about the development which followed from the grants given under the Undeveloped Areas Acts and the Industrial Grant Acts and he compared the results in the two areas. Unfortunately, he did not advert to the fact that the proportion of money given by the State in the case of the undeveloped areas is very substantially greater than that which is given under the Industrial Grants Acts. I am glad to see that the Minister feels that the time has come when a review must be undertaken of the original concept of the undeveloped areas and of the industrial grants scheme. I must plead guilty to being one of those who have pressed upon the Minister over the past three or four years the need to have another look at those two Acts and how they are working out.
The time has passed when we can segregate this country into two areas: undeveloped and presumably partly developed. I personally am of the opinion that, outside Dublin city and to a lesser extent Cork city, this country can be described as underdeveloped. In the question of giving grants or State subventions of any kind, we should have regard to the benefit that will accrue to the country as a whole rather than to any particular locality. The Minister should take his courage in his hands and do away with the line of demarcation between the undeveloped areas and the rest of the country.
In saying that, I do not mean to suggest that the Minister should indiscriminately apply the benefits at present available under the Undeveloped Areas Acts to the whole country. I personally would rather see the grants given to selected regions, to areas or zones— whatever you like to call them—with a sufficiently large population to be viable centres of industralisation. I do not believe in the theory that every small village can carry an industry. It may carry a small cottage-type industry but for an industry to employ 200, 300 or 500 people, it must of necessity be located near a large centre of population, if it is to be a successful and viable industry. It is only the fairly large centres of population that can supply the amenities which the workers quite rightly require.
I should like to ask the Minister to elaborate, when he is replying, on his statement to the effect that it will be his general policy to continue to schedule areas outside the undeveloped areas only where they are "fringe areas contiguous to the undeveloped areas proper." My constituency, for example, is not in the undeveloped areas as at present set out in the Act. I should like to ask if it is the Minister's intention to extend the undeveloped areas to include the county and city of Limerick. It has been suggested, rightly or wrongly, that Limerick is a signpost, as it were, for the undeveloped areas or the Shannon Free Airport development zone. Whatever the reason is, the Minister is only too well aware that there has been a singular absence of industrial development in Limerick over the past four or five years, since these Acts came into operation.
I do not think that can be put down completely to lack of enterprise on the part of the Limerick people. By and large, they are as enterprising as people in any other part of the country. It is very difficult to persuade industrialists who get grants of 100 per cent. for buildings and two-thirds per cent. for machinery, if they go five or six miles from Limerick, to stay in or near the city when they suffer the loss of these substantial benefits. That is another reason the Minister might consider at the earliest possible date a general levelling out of the whole grants system to ensure that populous areas and centres like Limerick city will play their part in our industrial expansion.
I do not know whether I am entitled to refer to Shannon on this Estimate. Strictly speaking, I think the industrial zone there comes under the aegis of the Minister for Transport and Power. I would wish that it came under the jurisdiction of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. It seems to me to be the most logical set-up that administration of one of the centres, where very substantial industrial progress has been made, should be a part of the functions of the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The fact that we cannot discuss this development on the Minister's Estimate is an anachronism. I hope some change will be made to bring this area within the jurisdiction of the Department of Industry and Commerce.
I have always been of the view that a number of the industries set up in the Shannon industrial zone could equally well have been located in or near Limerick city. I think I am correct in saying that several of them bring their raw materials into their factories by sea and not by air and that they export their products by sea and not by air. It seems to me that the logical place to site factories of that type is near a port. In Limerick city you have an ocean-going port with plenty of sites for factories that would cater for the export market. Such a development would have taken place in Limerick over the past three or four years if the benefits applicable to industries set up in Shannon could have been obtained in Limerick.
The Minister also referred to a matter which is of considerable interest to myself, that is, mining development. I should like to congratulate him and his predecessors on the steps taken to encourage the greater exploration and development of mining here. I should like to make a suggestion to the Minister. Some years ago Mianraí Teoranta had the necessary equipment and personnel to carry out exploration programmes themselves. As far as I am aware, they have no funds to do anything of that type now. I would suggest to the Minister that if he reconstituted Mianraí Teoranta as an active exploration concern, it would not be necessary to wait for outsiders to come in, explore our State resources and find out generally, at substantial benefit to themselves, what lies under the surface of our country.
It is a pity Mianraí Teoranta could not have continued the work they carried out so efficiently at Avoca. It would be very valuable information to the Minister's Department to know that in certain areas of the country there were deposits of various minerals proved, or even substantially proved. If we could have been in that happy position, we ourselves would have been able to enjoy the rewards which, of necessity, must go to outsiders because we do not know enough about the mineral wealth of our country.
I am sorry the Minister has thought fit to reduce the already small sums he was contributing to a joint advertising campaign in the United States for Irish whiskey. From my information any hope of selling Irish whiskey in the United States would cost a vast amount of money in advertising. It is as well to be realistic about the position. We must decide now, or very soon, whether in fact it is worth the effort. Even a sum of £80,000 or £100,000 means nothing in the vast American market. If we are seriously to tackle the question of exporting or marketing Irish whiskey in the United States, I am afraid we must be thinking in terms of ten times that amount at least. Whether it would justify an outlay like that is a matter on which I should not like to make any pronouncement, because I do not know sufficient about the trade. But, from my own very limited experience, I know it is certain that to hope to gain a substantial slice of the market by spending £50,000, £70,000 or even £100,000 on advertising is mere wishful thinking. The fact that the Minister has cut down his contribution to this joint advertising by £10,000 or £20,000 seems to me to indicate a desire to slide out of what has been a rather unsatisfactory investment.
I recall the Minister in his speech added to the exhortations which most of the Ministers have been making to industrialists to make their industries and businesses generally more efficient in the light of the free trade area on the way. I may be wrong but I have the feeling that exhortations made at Chamber of Commerce dinners and other such social gatherings are not likely to have the desired effect. Something more imaginative and stronger is required at Government level to make the Irish people realise the dire straits in which they will find themselves unless a very wide reorganisation of industry takes place.
It is an unfortunate fact, but a true one, that if you create a protective mentality as there has been—whether for better or worse, I should not like to argue—over the past 30 years by an out-and-out protective system, you cannot change that outlook overnight. Not alone would you want an industrial revolution, but you would want a psychological revolution to wake the country to the serious considerations which would face it if we are not in a position to compete with Great Britain and the continental countries. In doing that, we must have regard to the fact that the business people to a large extent have been lulled into a sense of false security by the protective market with which they have been provided over the past 30 years. It is only two or three years ago since I heard the Taoiseach, when Minister for Industry and Commerce, stating here that it was his intention to ensure that the home market would be retained for the Irish manufacturer. He stated that when he was bringing in a Bill two or three years ago to amend to some extent the Control of Manufactures Act.
That feeling, I think, still appertains throughout the country. The Minister, the Taoiseach and other members of the Government would want to be far more active than they have been in bringing home to business people and manufacturers the necessity of reorganising their whole lay-out to face this very competitive period which undoubtedly lies ahead. In order that they will face up to the possible danger, I think the Dáil and the country generally should be given more information as to the effects of membership of the Common Market.
In spite of what the Taoiseach said recently here, the only information Deputies on this side of the House have been able to get is that obtained by the unsatisfactory method of question and answer. The Minister for Industry and Commerce is more vitally concerned in this development than any other Minister and he should suggest to the Taoiseach that we should have a general debate on the whole matter so that there will be the greatest possible publicity rather than continue the present unsatisfactory method of eliciting information on a question and answer basis.
I do not know if the Minister has yet initiated consultations with the various groups of industrialists to ascertain from them how they will stand in this new free trade development. The Federation of Irish Industries has undertaken certain surveys but I think the Minister should take the initiative in bringing the Federation and other groups of industrialists into consultation with the experts in his Department so that they will appreciate fully what the position will be if certain steps are not taken to amalgamate, reorganise, or specialise in their various spheres. The position is much more serious than people realise and only very strong and speedy action by the Minister will bring home the seriousness of the position to industrialists generally.
We all join with the Minister in paying tribute to Bord Fáilte for the success of their tourist drive. It is unfortunate that we have to rely to such a considerable extent on invisible items in order to balance our annual accounts. Something like one-third of our balance of payments is made up of invisible items like tourism and emigrants' remittances. That leaves us in a very vulnerable position and brings home to us how vitally important it is that we should do everything we can to increase the tourist industry. Tourism is the type of industry we can handle efficiently and well. We have a reputation for friendliness. We have a reputation for getting on well with people. As regards English-speaking tourists, there are no difficulties from the point of view of language. There are many reasons why the tourist industry should be expanded. It is a most useful form of export trading. It is far better to bring people in here to eat Irish butter at 4/6d. per lb. than to have them going to Northern Ireland or remaining in Great Britain to eat our butter there at probably half the price.
I should like to see more encouragement given to the ordinary working-class in Britain to come to Ireland for their holidays. A big number do but a good proportion of those are probably our own people coming home for their annual holiday. There is an enormous tourist market potential where Britain is concerned. There is a population of 50,000,000 there and it is only 60 to 80 miles distant from us. I think we lean too heavily in favour of the luxury type of tourist who comes over in the most expensive jet planes and stays in the most luxurious hotels. These people spend very little apart from what they spend in the hotels. The ordinary working-class people would be a better investment from our point of view. The luxury tourist's spending is strictly limited to the hotel in which he stays.
The time is opportune for the Minister to have another look at the Control of Manufactures Act. Four years ago the Taoiseach as Minister for Industry and Commerce introduced an Act to encourage external investment. That was hedged round by many restrictions of one kind or another. I believe we should give free entry to any worth-while industrialist who is prepared to come in here and establish an industry able to compete with industries in other countries. That might have a temporary adverse effect on some of our home industries but, taking the long view, it would be far better to allow these industrialists in, to build modern factories, rather than rely on industries which may not be able to stand up against competition from outside in a few years' time.
The Minister mentioned the apprenticeship scheme. There is a bottleneck appearing at the moment because of the shortage of skilled personnel requisite to keep up the tempo of industrial development. Within the next year or two, we may find ourselves very short of skilled technicians. Already the shortage is becoming acute. It is being dealt with in what I regard as a very unsatisfactory way. Trained personnel are being taken out of existing factories. They are offered better conditions and they are quite right to accept them, but it would be much better if we had a proper pool of skilled personnel competent to take advantage of the industrial expansion, an expansion we hope will continue. Without a permanent skilled working population we cannot continue industrial development. All the grants and concessions the Minister may offer will come to naught if we have not got the trained personnel.
Countries like England and Germany can expand because they have the personnel to handle and operate new industries. I think there is a lack of liaison between the technical and technological schools in this country and the industrial expansion which is taking place. There is a haphazard air. Up to now we have concentrated on providing employment. We have not worried very much about the type of employment. If a factory is erected capable of employing 200, 300 or 400 people, that is a matter for congratulation. We do not examine the position home to find out if we have the type of labour to ensure that this new factory will be a success. I am sorry the Minister did not deal in greater detail with that point. It is a matter of some concern. I have some local experience of it. I am sure the Minister is well aware of the position. There is great need for an expansion in technical and technological education. I trust the Minister will take the initiative to ensure that the gap which exists will be bridged as quickly as possible.
