Not being a Gaelic speaker I have very little to say except that I welcome the translation of the Minister's speech. I ask the Minister now, when questions are put to him in English and he replies in Irish, would he go further and translate the reply also? When a question is put in Irish, while he may answer it in Irish, if requested he ought also to answer the question in English. In other words, I am asking the Minister to help those in the House who do not understand the language but who are entitled to know what is being said because they may want to put a supplementary question. If they do not understand the answer in the first place they are not able to put the supplementary question. Does the Minister follow my point?
Estimates for Public Services, 1961-62. - Vóta 42 — Roinn na Gaeltachta (Atógaint).
D'athtógadh an díospóireacht ar an tairscint seo leanas: "Go gcuirfear an Meastachán siar chun a athbhreith-nithe".—(An Teachta Pádraig Mac Loingsigh).
Yes, but have I not explained a few times that, if the Deputy does make such a request, it is granted?
Prior to this the Minister argued the point. As long as we understand each other, I am satisfied. I understood the Minister to say that it was only the Deputy who puts down the question who could ask for a translation.
That is so.
Are not the other Deputies entitled to know what is going on?
The rule that has been established here by my predecessors and which I followed is that if the Deputy who puts down a question which is answered in Irish, as is the established rule, does not understand the answer in Irish and says so and requests a translation in English, he gets it immediately but it has never been the practice to allow anybody to make the request other than the Deputy who put down the original question.
Everyone should know what is being said. That is what we are here for. Apart from that, although I am rather cynical about all this Gaelic business, simply because certain people are trying to capitalise on it, I do support the preservation of the Gaeltacht because it is a sort of show piece. While stating that, I still think, as Deputy Dillon has said, that we should scrutinise every account, that we should not pour money in there because to do so would leave the whole business open to abuse. There are too many people looking for cushy jobs. If they think we are prepared to be over-liberal because it is the Gaeltacht, there will be too many duds there making a good thing out of it. We must look for efficiency and therefore we ought to scrutinise every account and take note of the Taoiseach's remarks that industries that cannot stand up to the Common Market should get out. That should also apply to people in charge of industries and enterprises in the Gaeltacht. If they cannot make some kind of fist of it they should get out. There should be no cushy jobs for certain people. We want efficiency and we want results.
I shall not enlarge on the subject because the Gaeltacht is not my area. There are few of my people who know the language. They find it hard enough to preserve themselves, let alone preserve the language. Otherwise, I am all in favour of preserving the language in the Gaeltacht. It will be always a good show piece but as to whether it serves any other purpose or not I have my doubts.
If we are not to make some effort to use the language officially then it is not going to make progress. Deputy Sherwin ought to be a little more careful than to suggest that matters pertaining to the Gaeltacht and the language revival must ab initio be suspect.
No, Sir. I am not suspecting the Gaeltacht but I suspect certain people in our side of the country because it seems to me they are only after the jobs; that there is nothing patriotic about their learning the language.
Níor cheart é sin a rá ach oiread. Ní féidir le muintir na Gaeltachta "show piece" a choinneáil ar mhaithe le tourists agus eile. Tá siad ag iarraidh maireachtáil agus támuid ag iarraidh cuidiu leo maireachtáil. Ní féidir an Ghaeltacht a choimead beo mar "show piece". Ní mhairfidh sí mar "show piece". Támuid ag iarraidh a bhfuil fágtha den Ghaeltacht a choinneáil agus an teanga a scaipeadh ar fúd na tíre. Sin é an t-aon bhealach inar féidir an Ghaeilge a shábháil. D'fhéadfaí monarchan a chur ar gach cros-bhóthair sa Ghaeltacht ach mara labhrann Deputy Sherwin as Baile Atha Cliath agus daoine cosúil leis an teanga gheobhaidh sí bás.
I do not know what the Minister is talking about.
As Deputy Sherwin seems to be quite honest in his criticism, caustic though it may be, I want to tell him that there is no such possibility as retaining the Gaeltacht as a show piece and unless he and people like him use the language and, in any event, cease to throw suspicion and droch-mheas on it, the Gaeltacht will not be preserved. It depends on how well we are able to get it spoken in Dublin, Cork and outside the Gaeltacht whether the Gaeltacht will be saved.
I wish you luck but I have my doubts.
It is not possible to save it otherwise. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil aon tsort iarrachta a chuireann an iomarca ama amú ná bheith ag éisteacht leis an Teachta Mac Loingsigh ag caint ar chuntasaí Ghaeltarra Éireann. Ba mhaith liom rud amháin a chur ar Thuairisc Oifigiúil na Dála agus ní uaim a tháinig sé ach ón Teachta Ó Diolúin mar Chathaoirleach Coiste um Chuntais Phoiblí. 'Sé seo na rudaí a dúirt an Teachta Ó Diolúin mar Chathairleach na Coiste sin:
I think I should direct the attention of the Committee to the fact that it is past events with which we are now concerned. We are not concerned with suggesting a superior practice for the future, because all this business has been transferred from the Department of the Gaeltacht to the new Board, who are hereafter responsible. I am bound to say that my experience corresponds exactly with Mr. Ó Braonáin's observation, that there would ordinarily be a yard allowed in a piece of cloth and that that is, in fact, a conservative estimate of the allowance on a 72-yard piece. That reduces this deficit to 4,000 yards and, so far as I know, that would not be at all an unreasonable allowance for cutting patterns, where a manufacturing concern is dealing with the wholesale trade, the retail trade and the making up trade and with an effort, successful in varying degrees, to promote a foreign trade, where agents have to be treated on a very liberal basis in order to provide every facility for someone who is trying to break into a new foreign market.
That is not all I said.
Beidh mé sásta suidh síos má tá an Teachta ag iarraidh aguisin a chur leis.
Tá an scéal mórán níos fada ná sin.
Ar aon chaoi, baineann an rud seo díreach leis an coir agus an mí-iompair a chuir An Teachta Mac Loingsigh i leith oifigigh áirithe.
Pádraigh Mac Loingsigh
Ní dúbhairt mé focal ar bith i dtaobh bréidín inniu.
Agus leis an ionsaí a rinne sé—
I did not say a word about yarn.
Sin cuntas amháin i dtaobh na caimiléireachta a dubhairt sé go raibh ar bun i nGaeltarra Éireann agus sin é an míniú is ceart a thabhairt air, agus tá sé tugtha i bhfad níos fearr ag an Teachta Ó Diolúin ná mar is féidir liomsa é a dhéanamh.
Ar an dtaobh eile den scéal, chualamar go raibh caillteanas de £100,000, agus bhí sin ann. Bhí caillteanas i bhfad anall ag Gaeltarra Éireann, agus arís ba mhaith liom focal eile ón Bhfreasúr a thabhairt mar thacaíocht do Bhord Ghaeltarra Éireann agus sé sin go bhfuil na tionscail seo scaipthe ar fuaid na Gaeltachta in áiteanna iargcúlta sa tír agus tá sé thar a bheith deacair iad a reachtáil fé mar is féidir le dream ghnótha go bhfuil a gcuid imeachtaí ar fad fé aon díon tighe amháin. Bhí suim ag dreamanna áirithe gnótha sa tír seo ins na monarchain agus eile atá ag Gaeltarra Éireann ach fuair mé amach dá dtagaidís ina seilbh go ndúnfaidís beagnach gach ceann aca, agus dubhairt dream amháin aca nárbh fhéidir ach le dream philanthropic, mar a dubhairt sé féin, a leithéid a choinneáil ar bun. Is deacair ionaid fhostaíochta a choinneáil ar siúl ar chósta thiar Thír Chonaill, Chonamara agus Mhuigheó. Ach tá sin á dhéanamh ag Gaeltarra Éireann. In ainneoin na ndeacrachtaí agus in ainneoin na n-ionsaí atá á n déanamh go mí-chórach, tá scéal fábnarach le tuairisciú againn. Níl sé le feiceáil ins na cuntaisí don bhliain 1959-60 agus níl ach beagán de le feiceáil ins na cuntaisí don bhliain 1960-61, ach san chéad cheathramha den bhliain airgeadais reatha tá an méid seo le rá ag leathanach 22 den Tuarascáil ar an Programme for Economic Expansion for six months to the 31st March, 1961:
Gaeltarra Eireann's exports of handwoven tweeds, particularly to Great Britain, have shown a marked increase in the past six months as compared with exports for the corresponding period a year ago. Handknit production has continued to expand and the number of knitters now employed by the Board has risen to the record figure of 600. Special steps are being taken to develop export markets in Britain and the U.S.A. for these goods.
Sin é an scéal suas go dtí deireadh Márta i mbliana ach tá an scéal i bhfad Éireann níos fábharaighe don chéad trí mhí den bhliain airgeadais reatha, agus tá £30,000 san mbreis thar mar a bhí ann an tréimhse céanna anuraidh. Leis an eolas sin tá fonn orm Gaeltarra Éireann a fhágáil mar atá sé. Táim lán tsásta go bhfuil sé ar bhealach a leasa. Ba mhaith liom anois, ós rud é go bhfuil fonn gáiridhe ar an Teachta Mac Loingsigh, a rá leis gur aisteach gur thagair sé do dhuine amháin a d'eirigh as a chuid fostaíochta dá thoil féin. Chuir sé i leith an duine sin gurbh é fé ndear an chailleanais a bhí ann san bhliain 1958-59. Táim ag rá anois leis an Teachta nach raibh an fear sin in a bhainisteoir annsin an bhliain sin beag nó mór.
I did not say that year. I said 1959-60.
1958-59 —sin mar thuig mé uaidh. Chuir sé i mo leith go raibh mé faillíoch agus go raibh mé beag beann ar an gcaillteanas. Pé scéal é, níor thagair sé do rud amháin a rinne mé thuas annsin nuair a d'athraigh mé stiurthóir bainistigh ins na cúrsaí sin. Tá a fhios sin aige.
Pádraig Mac Loingsigh
Lean leis an scéal.
Ni raibh fonn air tagairt a dhéanamh don taobh sin den scéal. Ba mhaith liom a rá leis an Teachta Ua Maolcatha go bhfuil mé ar aon intinn leis gur ceart cruinn eolais a bheith againn ar na ceantracha gur fíor-Ghaeltacht iad.
Nuair a leagamar learscáil na Gaeltachta amach agus é breactha ina cheantracha éagsúla, shileamar go rabhamar ag tabhairt eolais chruinn ar na limistéirí a bhí sa bhfíor Ghaeltacht agus sa bhreac Ghaeltacht. Ar ndóigh tá mí-reitheachas intinn ag na Teachtaí i dtaobh na ceisteanna seo. Tá an Teachta Ua Maolchatha ag iarraidh a fháil amach an bhfuil an t-airgead seo ag dul go dtí muintir na fíor-Ghaeltachta.
Ní hé an t-eolas sin atá ag teastáil uaim ar chor ar bith. Tá mé ag lorg eolais i dtaobh na limistéiri seo agus cén áit ina bhfuil siad.
Tá sé sin sa léarscáil atá sa Leabharlainn. Tá an t-eolas sin breactha ar an léarscáil.
Má fhéachann an tAire ar an léarscáil sin arís chífidh sé nach bhfuil ann ach spota dubh.
An bhfuil an Teachta ag iarraidh orm dul ar ais arís go dtí na togharanna agus liosta a thúirt de na bailte fearann? Má tá beidh mé i ndán é sin a dhéanamh.
Sé rud atá á iarraidh agam ná roint eolais. B'fhéidir gur fearr an t-eolas sin d'fháil tré cheisteanna Parlaiminte agus gan iad a chur i rith díospóireachta mar seo.
Tá tóir agamsa, chomh maith leis an Teachta, ar an eolas seo. Ar ndóigh, tá eolas pearsanta agam i dtaobh Conamara ach níl sé agam i dtaobh na ceantracha i nDún na nGall, Ciarraí nó Corcaigh. Molaim don Teachta, má tá ceantar ar leith i gceist aige, ceist chruinn a chur orm i dtaobh bailte fearann—an bhfuil siad sa bhfíor-Ghaeltacht nó sa bhreac-Ghaeltacht. Tá suim mhór agamsa sa rud seo freisin. Tharraing oifigeoirí ó Roinn na Gaeltachta líne áirithe ach cuireadh áiteacha eile isteach nach raibh sa bhfíor-Ghaeltacht agus cheap mé go raibh an Teachta Ua Maolchatha ag iarraidh a fháil amach an raibh cuid den airgead san Vóta seo dhá caitheamh mar mhaithe leis na h-áiteacha seo.
Bhí mé ag iarraidh a fháil amach ce hiad na h-áiteacha chor ar bith a gheobhfadh buntáiste ón Vóta seo.
Táim ag iarraidh cabhair a thúirt don Teachta. Taispeánfaidh mé taobh istigh den léarscáil na h-áiteanna nach bhfuil sa bhfíor-Ghaeltacht agus ansan beidh a fhios ag an Teachta céard iad na ceantracha atá sa bhfíor-Ghaeltacht— process of elimination mar déarfá.
Rinne an Teachta Ó Diolúin tagairt do chuntaisí Ghaeltarra Éireann sa bhliain 1958-59 agus do cheartú de £14,000 a tháinig isteach sna cuntaisí sa bhliain 1959-60. Bhí ceisteanna freisin ina thaobh seo ón Teachta Mac Loingsigh ina oráid inniu. Séard a thárla ansin ná go raibh oifigí i gCuan Ealaí i gCo. Mhuigheo ag déanamh suas na stoc-chuntaisí i gcóir árachais agus tháinig siad ar an bhfigiúir seo £14,000. Ar bhealach éigin, nuair a bhíodar, níos deireannaí, ag déanamh suas an ghnáth-stoc-chuntas greamaíodh a nóta árachais tré dhearmad don stoc-chuntas seo agus is mar sin a thárla go raibh an figiúir £14,000 dúbalta. Ceartaíodh an earráid sna cuntaisí le haghaidh 1960-61. Is furasta earráid mar sin a dhéanamh in aon oifig.
D'fhiafraigh an Teachta Ó Diolúin ansin faoi fhigiúir cheartaithe, £17,000, sa bhliain 1960-61. Sé an míniú atá agam air sin ná go raibh sean-chuntas cuistiméara ann de £3,000 a ghlan Gaeltarra Éireann sa bhliain 1960-61. Sé an £3,000 sin atá mar dhifríocht idir an £17,000 agus an £14,000.
Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil rud ar bith eile le tagairt dó. Ba mhaith liom, ar ndóigh, rud amháin a rá faoi na rudaí adeir na Teachtaí i dtaobh caillteanais. Más rud é nach raibh na tionscail seo againn agus dá bhfanfadh na daoine sin ina gcónaí sa mbaile in Éirinn bheadh siad ag fáil bhuntáiste leasa shoisialaigh a thiocfadh suas go méid an chaillteanais. Ar an ábhar sin, is fearr i bhfad go mbeadh an caillteanas seo againn agus na daoine ag obair san am gcéanna. Ba mhaith liom béim a leagan ar an bhfeabhsú de £30,000 sa gcéad ráithe i mbliana thar mar bhí sa tréimhse céanna anuraidh.
Tá chuile chosúlacht ar an scéal go bhfuil feabhas ag teacht ar chúrsaí Ghaeltarra Éireann agus impím agus iarraim ar an Teachta Mac Loingsigh a lámh agus a ladhar a choinneáil amach as an áit seo. Má dheiineann sé amhlaidh agus má leanann sé an comhairle a fuair sé ins an Sunday Review, mise i mbannaí dó go mbeidh scéal ceart ag Gaeltarra Éireann.
I am being advised by the Minister now not to ask any more questions about Gaeltarra Éireann. My figure of £147,000 as a loss stands uncontradicted.
Tá mé ag impigh ar an Teachta, dár ndóigh, gan an droch-chiall agus an drochmheabhair i gcónaí a bhaint as gach a bhfuil ar eolas aige i dtaobh Ghaeltarra Éireann agus tá mé a rá leis go mbfhéidir nach bhfuil na foinsí eolais atá aige iontaobhaithe i gcónaí.
May I ask the Minister a question? Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur air i mBéarla. Does he approve of the practice of stating in the report of Gaeltarra Éireann that a sum of £14,114 has been put into the accounts of 1959/60 as losses not on the head of trading and then when you turn to the Profit and Loss account which the Report says contains that item you find "losses that do not arise from the trading of the year, £17,264". When I direct his attention to that ambiguity, he is obliged to say the figure of £17,264 does not correspond with the figure mentioned in the Report which contains a further figure for £3,000 of bad debts. All I am complaining of to the Minister is that surely that is bad practice. Is not that ambiguity in the Report and unless somebody asks the Minister by way of a motion such as we have down here today, who could know how the difference arose between the figure of £17,264 and £14,114? How can the Minister justify that kind of accounting?
I am not attempting to justify it at all. When I was put a question about the accounts I gave the information as I got it. I will have Deputy Dillon's remarks about that particular discrepancy brought to notice. If there is anything very unusual about it, I shall have suitable action taken.
Cuireadh an cheist: Go gcuirfidh an Meastachán siar chun a aithbhreithnithe.
Rinne an Coiste vótáil.
Tá, 41; Níl, 55.
Tá
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Barry, Richard.Browne, Noel C.Burke, James.Byrne, Tom.Carroll, James.Corish, Brendan.Cosgrave, Liam.Crotty, Patrick J.Desmond, Daniel.Dillon, James M.Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.Everett, James.Fagan, Charles.Finucane, Patrick.Flanagan, Oliver J.Hogan, Bridget.Jones, Denis F.Kenny, Henry.Kyne, Thomas A.Larkin, Denis.Lindsay, Patrick. |
Lynch, Thaddeus.McGilligan, Patrick.McLaughlin, Joseph.McMenamin, Daniel.McQuillan, John.Manley, Timothy.Mulcahy, Richard.Murphy, William.Norton, William.O'Higgins, Michael J.O'Reilly, Patrick.Palmer, Patrick W.Reynolds, Mary.Rooney, Eamonn.Russell, George E.Ryan, Richie.Sherwin, Frank.Spring, Dan.Sweetman, Gerard.Tierney, Patrick. |
Níl
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Bartley, Gerald.Blaney, Neil T.Boland, Gerald.Boland, Kevin.Booth, Lionel.Brady, Philip A.Brady, Seán.Breen, Dan.Brennan, Joseph.Brennan, Paudge. Cummins, Patrick J.Cunningham, Liam.Davern, Mick.de Valera, Vivion.Dooley, Patrick.Egan, Kieran P.Egan, Nicholas.Faulkner, Padraig.Geoghegan, John.Gibbons, James.Gilbride, Eugene.Haughey, Charles.Healy, Augustine A.Hillery, Patrick J.Hilliard, Michael.Johnston, Henry M.Kenneally, William.Killilea. Mark. |
Breslin, Cormac.Briscoe, Robert.Browne, Seán.Burke, Patrick.Carty, Michael.Childers, Erskine.Clohessy, Patrick.Collins, James J.Cotter, Edward.Crowley, Honor M. Kitt, Michael F.Loughman, Frank.Lynch, Celia.Lynch, Jack.MacCarthy, Seán.McEllistrim, Thomas.MacEntee, Seán.Medlar, Martin.Millar, Anthony G.Moher, John W.Moloney, Daniel J.Mooney, Patrick.Ó Briain, Donnchadh.Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.Ormonde, John.Teehan, Patrick.Traynor, Oscar. |
Airitheoirí: —Tá: Teachtaí Crotty agus Jones; Níl: Na Teachtaí Ó Briain agus Loughman.
Faisnéiseadh go rabhthas taréis diúltú don ceist.
Cuireadh agus aontaíodh an Vóta.
Motion No. 18 "That the Dáil takes notes of the Reports and Accounts of Gaeltarra Éireann for the years 1958-59 and 1959-60" put and declared lost.