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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 20 Jul 1961

Vol. 191 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Health (Corporate Bodies) Bill, 1961. —Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. For more than a decade now, the need for a variety of ancillary health services of a type which cannot at the moment be readily and conveniently operated by existing statutory bodies has been apparent. In order to meet it successive Ministers for Health have from time to time arranged for the establishment under the Companies Acts of companies, in most cases limited by guarantee, to operate particular services of this kind. The usual practice was for the Minister for Health to invite a number of individuals to incorporate a limited company one of the objects of which would be to provide the specified service. In his invitation the Minister outlined the functions which the proposed company would fulfil and specified particular features of its constitution, including the requisite financial controls, which varied in degree for different companies. These requirements were ultimately incorporated in the Memorandum and Articles of Association of the company as formed. The financial controls imposed by the Minister and the reservation to himself of certain powers were warranted by the fact that in general the companies in question are financed wholly or mainly from public moneys or from charges made for their services and are carrying out important health functions on his behalf and at his instance. The members of each such company and of its Board of Directors were nominated in due course by the Minister.

The health bodies which have been established in this way and are now operating are the National Blood Transfusion Association, the National Mass-Radiography Association, the National Organisation for Rehabilitation, the Dublin Rheumatism Clinic Association and the Cancer Association of Ireland. Another health body established under the Companies Acts is the Medical Research Council of Ireland. Though the majority of its members are not appointed by the Minister, he provides virtually all its income.

While it is within the letter of the law, the use of the Companies Acts in this way is in my opinion hardly consistent with the purpose which Parliament had in view when the statutes were enacted. Company law was created to facilitate groups of individuals in forming themselves into corporate entities for industrial and commercial purposes. The Acts were not intended to meet the case where a Minister of State wished to establish a corporate body to administer under his general supervision a service financed from moneys provided by him. It is only right, however, to emphasise that the resort to the Companies Acts procedure has, in practice, resulted in the satisfactory establishment and operation of the special health services which I have enumerated. Some of the special bodies operating these services have had teething troubles in their earlier stages. In the main, however, where these occurred, they were due to a failure to distinguish between the powers reserved by the Minister to himself and the powers of the members. It is also right to say that in some cases the procedure led to considerable delay in the formal establishment of the services, and, in most cases, to some significant expense which in the future this Bill, if enacted, will obviate.

A further reason for submitting the proposal in the Bill to the Oireachtas is that in my view the procedure which has been availed of heretofore to establish these special or ancillary services is scarcely consistent with the responsibility which the Minister has towards the Oireachtas. There was, of course, a large measure of justification for adopting it when the Department of Health was in the early stages of its development, when the establishment of ancillary services was a rarity, and when so much had to be done quickly that resort to extrastatutory procedures was warranted. On the other hand I am convinced that as our health services expand, and the need for ancillary health organisations, operating outside the statutory health authorities, becomes more manifest, some statutory procedure, other than ad hoc legislation for each particular case, should be laid down. If this be not done, a Minister for Health could proceed to use the funds under his control to establish a succession of such bodies without the consent and perhaps even without the cognisance of the Oireachtas.

On the other hand, the enactment of statute after statute to establish a succession of services on a statutory basis, as the need for each arose, would constitute an inordinate demand on the time of the Oireachtas. I think the difficulty can be resolved if the Minister is given general power to establish such bodies by order, with the proviso that he must submit all orders establishing such bodies to the scrutiny of the Oireachtas. This in brief is what this Bill proposes to do.

Section 3 of the Bill will give the Minister for Health power to make an order establishing a body to perform functions in, or in relation to, the provision of a health service or two or more health services. "Health service" is defined in Section 2 as "any service relating to the protection or improvement of the health of the people or the care and treatment of the sick and infirm." A body so established will be a corporate entity with all the necessary powers to hold land, enter into contracts, employ officers and servants and so on. The new procedure will be straightforward and inexpensive and it will have the overriding advantage that its members will be presented with a clear-cut constitution for their body and will know exactly where their powers and responsibilities will begin and end.

Section 4, to which I would like the House to allow me to move an amendment if we take the Committee Stage this evening, deals with the membership and staffing of a corporate body established under the Bill. The establishment order setting up the body will define the number of members and the terms and conditions of their appointment. It will also deal with the staffing of the body and may include provisions relating to the conditions of service and the tenure of office of members of the staff. Two very useful provisions are included in this section. Under one of them, the machinery of the Local Appointments Commissioners can be used in making appointments to the staff of a corporate body, and under the other, the staff of such a body can be brought within the superannuation code applicable to local officers and servants. This latter provision will mean that there can be transfers of appropriate staff between such a body and a local authority without loss of any accrued superannuation rights.

Under Section 5 the Minister will, in an establishment order, be empowered to define the functions of the corporate body, and the manner in which and the conditions under which these may be performed; and it is provided under Section 6 that the establishment order shall include all necessary provisions relating to the administration of the corporate body.

Section 7 envisages circumstances which might make the dissolution of a corporate body set up under Section 3 desirable. Such a circumstance might arise if the service for which the body was set up was no longer necessary or if the service had expanded to such an extent that it became appropriate for absorption into the local "health authorities" administration. With a view to eventualities such as these, section 7 provides for a wide variety of possibilities in the disposal of the assets of any corporate body which may be dissolved. The property, rights and liabilities could be transferred to the Minister, for instance, or to another corporate body established under the Act, or to a local authority, or they might be distributed among a number of local authorities. Existing contracts could be continued and officers could be transferred to similar posts under appropriate bodies, thus ensuring, where necessary, that the administration of the particular service could be smoothly transferred.

It is not intended that the Bill will automatically apply to any of the existing companies which I have mentioned. These will retain their present constitutions under the Companies Acts, but they will have power, under Section 8, to transform themselves into corporate bodies under the Act on passing a resolution to that effect.

The requirement in Section 10 as to the laying of establishment orders before both Houses will ensure that the Oireachtas is fully informed of the establishment, under the provisions of the Bill, of every new body to perform health functions, and as to the provisions relating to the functions and general administration of that body. Under existing procedure there is no obligation on a Minister for Health to bring the formation of new bodies to the notice of the Oireachtas.

The need for special bodies to provide and to administer on a national or a regional basis particular health services which could not be provided or operated efficiently or economically within the framework of the local government code is now, as I have said, definitely established. Some of the bodies which have already been set up in the guise of limited companies have been entrusted with the expenditure of considerable sums of public money, and, of necessity, continue to spend such moneys in their day-to-day administration. The need for such bodies is likely to continue indefinitely as the health services develop, and it is as well to accept the fact that even now they are in effect an integral part of health administration. Indeed the stage has been reached when there is no justification for continuing to avail of the Companies Acts for the purpose of giving them corporate existence, and when instead there should be appropriate statutory powers for doing this and establishing them with the cognisance and, at least, the acquiescence of the Oireachtas.

Accordingly, I recommend this Bill to the House.

This is in our opinion mainly a machinery Bill and, in the light of the obligation imposed upon the Minister for the time being to bring the establishment order provided for under Section 10 before the Houses of the Oireachtas for consideration, I think the machinery proposed is on the whole reasonable and desirable. I should like to be fully reassured that I am correct in believing that the existing companies engaged in this kind of work are under no obligation to dissolve themselves, that those of them who desire to convert themselves into statutory bodies such as are provided for in this Bill have facilities to do so.

That being so we have no objection to this Bill and are prepared to support it.

We, too, are prepared to support the Bill but I should like very briefly and quickly to ask the Minister a few questions. I think I am right in assuming from what the Minister has said and from the terms of the Bill that the Minister has power to establish these health bodies. Will there be any consultation with local authorities as to whether they should be established? I would not object if the Minister had the power. I should like to know also whether the Minister can give us any idea what extra costs may be involved either by the State or by local authorities. Again I would not object to the cost. I would not object to any extra expense in this good cause, but if the Minister has any idea perhaps he would let us know. I was also interested in the section which says that the Local Appointments Commission may be used for making appointments and that the Local Government Superannuation code may be applied to officials of these bodies as if they were local officers and servants. Could the Minister not be more positive and say that the machinery would be used and that the officials would be so regarded?

I could not make it absolutely binding. There might be circumstances.

Section 7 provides for the dissolution of the body if — in the Minister's opinion I assume — this should be necessary. I assume also that officials employed, transferred or newly appointed would be somewhat safeguarded.

They will. One of the purposes of the amendment I am proposing is to make that certain.

Will these bodies be responsible to the local authority or to the Minister?

To the Minister.

I am getting my answers pretty quickly. In the past this has always been a bone of contention, but may questions be asked about these bodies in this House? I think that should be made clear now as otherwise you are going to have interminable rows in the House about whether Deputies can ask questions.

I will put it this way: you are better entitled to ask a question under the new procedure than you would have been under the procedure followed heretofore.

That is encouraging.

Mr. Ryan

All the same the Minister will not answer.

He will. He can be forced to answer.

Mr. Ryan

Not at all. He will be like the Minister for Transport and Power.

I was suspicious like Deputy Ryan because there is provision only for the introduction of an establishment order in the House, its approval by the House, and that is the end of it. If the Minister, however, gives us an assurance, as he seems to have given, that we may ask questions and expect reasonable information, I shall be quite satisfied.

I regret having to throw a spanner in the works of this Bill but I personally am somewhat suspicious of it. The system that worked before may have been, as the Minister says, somewhat cumbersome and may have caused delays in certain cases, but this Dáil should be very careful of what it does and in effect we are giving the Minister power to set up any sort of ancillary companies and, as I take it from the Minister's reply to Deputy Corish, they will not be under Parliament's control. It may be argued that the present method of doing things is not satisfactory.

The Minister has been rather limited in the information he has given us. What sort of organisations does he intend to set up? He mentioned the already existing organisations here very fairly I think. We have the National Blood Transfusion Organisation, the National Mass Radiography Association, the National Rehabilitation Organisation, the Dublin Rheumatism Clinic and so forth and they in my opinion seem to have worked reasonably well. I do not wish to offer any innuendo whatever against the Minister personally or against any subsequent Ministers, whoever they may be, but I have always had the feeling that we are gradually divesting ourselves of our own powers in this House. Are we not in this Bill giving the Minister power to set up organisations, place his decision before the Dáil — I presume there will be a debate on the question generally — and then he is in complete control of those organisations? In other words, further bureaucratic control. I do not like that idea, but if the Minister considered it necessary he should have given the House absolutely definite cases of what organisations he has in view in future.

I was also suspicious of his reply to Deputy Corish. If we are going to give the Minister for Health powers to set up organisations like these, is he going to be responsible to Dáil Eireann for them? Will he accept full responsibility? If someone makes a representation to me that such and such an ancillary health body is being administered unsatisfactorily and if I come into Dáil Eireann and ask a question, am I going to get an answer or will I be told that this is a function of the body, that this body has been set up by the Minister and that the Minister has no further concern in it? Every Deputy must take cognisance of that.

During the last three or four years many bodies have been set up by this Dáil. Many Deputies have come in subsequently and tried to get information relative to those bodies and are told that the Minister has no function in the matter. The body has been established, it is a statutory body and it has therefore its own powers, its own say in matters. Is that the case or not? I do not like Ministerial control or bureaucratic control, but at least if we come to accept that — and I have no doubt that it will be the opinion of the majority of Deputies in the House that this is a reasonable Bill and that it is going to go through — can we come back and assert our rights as Deputies and say: "I do not consider that such and such a thing is properly lone"? If we do, will the Minister answer? If he says "yes" to that question, I am satisfied. Is he going to accept full responsibility for them? If he is, I am satisfied. If not, I request that I personally would be recorded as dissenting from the Bill.

Mr. Ryan

I am glad that because of the Taoiseach's appeal to the Tánaiste not to leave him, in view of the tottering fortunes of his Party, the Tánaiste has withdrawn his proposed retirement from public life. Those of us here in this House who are not as experienced as he, have a great deal to learn from him. The perfect example of what we can learn is how to dodge the issue and confuse a person deliberately by using the de Valera technique of not denying or confirming and using the escape route which the Minister used when Deputy Corish asked the very proper question: when these new bodies are established, will they be open to question in this House? The Tánaiste simply replied: "At least they will be more open to question than the bodies set up under the old system." That did not indicate to my mind that there will be room to criticise them. There will be no opportunity to criticise them except in so far as one might criticise the Minister's action in setting them up.

I feel that under this Bill, we will establish bodies which are not the natural result of voluntary effort on the part of a number of citizens who wish to help their fellows. There could be set up all kinds of cockeyed groups with bureaucrats which the Minister for the time being may think desirable and at the same time, there need be no way in which we could prevent a Minister such as the present occupant of the post from setting up rival organisations to the ones already in existence. He might be able to wield a pen and set up another medical association as a rival to the existing one which upsets his sleeping and waking hours.

I think that is undesirable. After all, what is the laborious system which the Minister thinks is unsuitable in regard to the formation of companies and to the printing of articles of association, something that could be done for anything from £30 to £50? What companies are not operating smoothly enough? Certainly I think the organisations we have at the moment have some independence and are able to operate with some sense of freedom away from the Department.

In future, we will have bodies conceived in the Department of Health, born out of the Department of Health, nourished by the Department of Health, and at all times tagged on to to the Department of Health, and these bodies will be afraid of the bureaucrats. I admit that the existing bodies are respectful to the Department and get every encouragement from the Department, but there is something different between the bodies we now have and any creation which may come out under this Bill.

I would not feel that would be very desirable even if this legislation were in the hands of a responsible Minister. I for one do not trust the present occupant of the post with a powerful piece of legislation like this in his hands, and he cannot blame us very much for that. His own colleagues give us reason to suspect what may happen when this Bill goes through.

It is very important that we should protest most vehemently that this Bill was introduced at such a late hour at the end of a long session. If there were need for it and if it is as desirable and essential as the Minister pretends it is, then it ought to have been introduced a few years ago, and not at the end of a most tiring session in which the abilities and interests of the Deputies are becoming exhausted from having, in the first instance, to deal with all kinds of unnecessary legislation necessitated by the Government's misconduct, and later on by consequential long debates on the Estimates. We are being asked not merely for the Second Stage of this rather important Bill but, for the first time, to take an amendment which the Minister proposes to it as if it were of no consequence at all. I do not think that is good enough. We are setting up a new wing to the Department of Health which has a most unhappy history, and is certainly having a most unhappy present. We will be building on a rather unhappy foundation.

This Bill cannot be accepted without some rather strong criticism being offered in order that when the day comes, as it will inevitably come if this Bill goes through, and the Minister is dumb, some of us will be able to say: "We told you so." That will be very small comfort but at least it will be some comfort that we insisted on saying these things tonight.

I am sorry I was not able to make myself very clear. I thought I did. I read my speech so that there would be no doubt as to what I was conveying to the House. Certainly in the terms of my speech, I did not say, as Deputy Esmonde thinks I said, that I was condemning these companies. What I said was:

It is only right, however, to emphasise that the resort to the Companies Acts procedure has, in practice, resulted in the satisfactory establishment and operation of the special health services which I have enumerated.

There is nothing there to support the gloss which Deputy Esmonde put on my words.

Let us see what is the existing position. For the expenditure of a certain sum of money, I, as Minister for Health, could get together a number of individuals, hand-pick them and form them into a company, limited by guarantee, and give them thousands of pounds of public moneys to establish themselves and carry on, and the Oireachtas need not know a thing about what I was doing. That is the existing situation. I do not say that any one of my predecessors any more than myself has taken advantage of the position in which the Minister for Health, with very large sums of money under his control, finds himself.

In relation to the initiation of undertakings of this sort, here are certain bodies which have already been established: the Dublin Rheumatism Clinic, the National Blood Transfusion Association, the National Mass-Radiography Association, the National Organisation for Rehabilitation, the Medical Research Council, every one of them estimable bodies—I do not criticise them in any particular—is dependent upon the Minister for Health for its existence.

I did not think that that was a desirable situation and the change which I am making in this Bill will be that the Minister has now the statutory power, and, therefore, I take it the constitutional obligation, to establish bodies of this sort by a process which is consistent with his constitutional responsibility to Dáil Éireann. For that reason, the bodies will now be established under an establishment order which the Minister is bound to lay before the House. For certain reasons the usual power of annulment is not given but it is open to any member of the Dáil at any time to put down a motion to say this establishment order should be annulled or amended in any one particular. The mere fact that that establishment order is laid before Dáil Éireann means that the purpose or the operations of any one of these bodies can be discussed and debated here in public.

At the present time if a question is put down on the Order Paper all I have got to say is that this is a limited liability company and I am not called upon to answer to the House for it. That will not be the situation in the future because under Section 6, clause (d), the Minister can ask or require these bodies to furnish him with information and, in the circumstances, I should think that any Minister would find it extremely embarrassing to refuse to convey to Dáil Éireann the information which he is entitled to receive. These bodies will not be bodies engaging in commercial transactions.

Would it be right to put it this way, that in respect of (a), (b), (c) and (d) the Minister for Health would be bound to answer a question in Dáil Éireann on any of these matters?

I would say that if I were Minister for Health I would feel myself bound to answer them. I think that is as far as I can go. My own desire would be that but there are certain difficulties. Any body set up will be part of the ordinary administration of the health services. The bodies will be an integral part of the health services, as, say, the National Blood Transfusion Service, the National Mass-Radiography Service, or the National Organisation for Rehabilitation is. They become an integral part. They cannot be administered by any of the existing Health Authorities. It is not desirable they should be directly administered by the Minister for Health and his Department and my predecesors had to have resort to the Companies Act procedure to bring the bodies into existence at all. As I said in my speech, that course of action was justified by the existing circumstances. But I visualise that as techniques develop, and the need for specialist organisations becomes more apparent, it will be desirable that we should have some statutory authority for setting up bodies of this kind.

The question was asked what bodies would I contemplate. At the moment there are no bodies in contemplation. These six seem to cover the field but I think it may be found as the years go on that other bodies will be necessary and it is also possible that some of these bodies may wish to become corporate bodies under the Act. Some of them will have grown very big. Questions of superannuation, questions of transfer from one section of the health services to another, are almost bound to arise in future and this machinery will enable these transfers to be made in a legal way and will enable those who staff these services, if the companies decide to become corporate bodies under the Act, to be secure in their superannuation rights and in their tenure of office. That is the whole purpose of this Bill. Deputy Ryan and Deputy Esmonde were trying to see something sinister in it. The one thing which this Bill does is to make the Minister for Health more responsible to the House for the establishment of these bodies than he has been heretofore.

I should like to ask the Minister one question. In Section 10, why has he not made the usual proviso that the order shall lie upon the Table of the House for 21 days and unless revoked by Dáil Éireann shall have effect, without prejudice to its operation during the 21 days?

The reason is that we should be in this difficulty. When the order is made, a corporate entity comes into existence and its existence would, I think, be very precarious if it were made subject to the non-annulment or the acquiescence of this House in the order. It would create serious legal and practical difficulties in relation to properties that have to be acquired and so on. I do not think there is any big disadvantage because a member of the House can at any time put down a motion to discuss the position of any of these corporate bodies.

That point causes me misgivings. I feel that Section 6 provides adequate safeguards for the right to ask Parliamentary Questions of the Minister. I do not feel so easy about Section 10.

I may say I gave it a great deal of consideration and I was persuaded by my legal advisers not to put in the usual provision for annulment.

Is there any precedent for this new section?

I think so but quite frankly I do not now remember it. But there is no precedent for what is being done now.

We have passed two stages. The original provision was that an order had to be made and the order had no effect until it was confirmed by the Oireachtas. Then we devised the system whereby the order was laid on the Table and unless revoked within 21 days——

Unless revoked within 21 sitting days which may be quite an extended period.

That was the second stage, that it was laid on the Table of the House and unless it was revoked——

If the Deputy will allow me to go through the Committee Stage now——

I cannot do that. I would like the Minister to consider it between now and Tuesday.

There is no particular urgency about the Bill except that I do not want it to die on the door-step of dissolution.

May I ask the Minister a few questions? First of all, he says that the order is brought before the Oireachtas. Will we have due notice of it?

As the section stands, no notice is necessary.

It does not seem to be an adequate safeguard The Minister could suddenly bring in an order. Nobody would be aware that it was coming in and it could go through Dáil Éireann without being debated. Is it not possible to embody a provision in the Bill to ensure that Dáil Éireann will get notice of that?

Would the Deputy consider this? I do not want to depart from procedure radically. Would he consider that at the moment I can withdraw this Bill and the House will have less control over me as Minister for Health than it would if this Bill went through? The Minister does not give any notice to the Dáil. These limited companies to which I have referred, and all of which are in operation, some of which, as I have said, were financed at the start with large sums of public money, continued to expend considerable revenues. They were started without notice being given to the Dáil. I do not have to make even an establishment order if this Bill goes through. However, I would say that if I did not operate under the Bill the House would certainly have grave reason to criticise me. The position is that as it stands I can do any one of the things to which the Deputy refers and he has no redress.

Mr. Ryan

At the moment it is open to people to apply to the court to wind up a limited company for any reason. It would not be open to the companies to wind up one of the statutory bodies.

Would the Deputy mind citing one of the reasons why the court would expect to justify winding up one of these companies?

Mr. Ryan

If it was not behaving in accordance with the Articles of Association.

The Minister for Health would see that.

Mr. Ryan

He might not want to see it.

Section 9 says that the expenses incurred by the Minister in the administration of this Act——

They will be infinitesimal.

Would there be any question of cost to a local authority?

I see that every order made by the Minister under this Act shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas. Does that mean merely placed in the Library or circulated to each member?

It means that the order will be laid, in accordance with whatever is the established procedure—

Does it mean that the order will be sent to each Deputy——

No—laid on the Table and notice given in the Order Paper.

Would the Minister create a good precedent in respect of a matter like this? Would he embody a section in this Bill which will make it incumbent upon any Minister for Health to send to each member of this House and of the Seanad——

If it would satisfy Deputy Dillon, I would be satisfied. I do not think any difficulty would arise.

How long before?

The Minister may consider it between now and the Report Stage. I think we ought to return to the 21 days or the 14 days procedure.

It would be a good precedent to have these orders sent direct to members rather than laid on the Table of each House of the Oireachtas.

It is necessary to give them plenty of time to study them, say a week before.

As soon as the order is made.

Then it has to be discussed in Dáil Éireann.

It is usual that orders issued by the Minister for Social Welfare and the Minister for Health are put in the Library.

They appear on the Order Paper.

Mr. Ryan

And mean nothing until a person reads them.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 25th July, 1961.
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