Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Aug 1961

Vol. 191 No. 14

Local Authorities (Education Scholarships) (Amendment) Bill, 1961— Report and Final Stages.

General Mulcahy

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 3, line 28, before "and" to insert—

"provided that nothing in this section shall operate to constrain a Corporation or Council to reduce the total amount allocated in the financial year 1960/61 for the provision of assistance under the Act of 1908, or to refrain adding thereto in any subsequent year a sum not greater than one-third of additional monies provided from the rates and the State Grant."

The Minister in his Second Reading speech stated at column 1686 of the Official Debates:

Another matter to which I wish to make special reference is the proposal that the amount to be allocated for university scholarships should not be more than half that provided for post-primary scholarships in one-third of the total monies.

In dealing with the matter, I wanted to know was that a composite fund, was the rate and the State grant to be regarded as a composite fund in the case of assigning scholarships under the 1908 Act. The Minister made it clear in the subsequent discussion that all the moneys in the hands of the local authorities, whether from the rate raised under the Local Authorities (Scholarships) Act or under the Act of 1908 and all the moneys received from the State were one fund.

At column 1739 of the Official Debates, he said:

I visualise one main fund in each local authority area.

At the end of the column, dealing with the third year of the State contribution, he said:

In the third year the State contribution will be one and a half to one and in the fourth year it will be the same thing. The aim will be a five to four ratio between State and local contribution, making one fund which will be divided into two-thirds for post-primary education and one-third for university education roughly.

When the Minister finished his concluding speech on Second Reading and again when he asked for the Committee Stage of the Bill on that day, I attempted to warn him and I suggested that in order to avoid unnecessary clashes, we should have a little clarification of what the Minister had in mind, particularly in relation to the way it affected local authorities in the earlier years of his scheme. The Minister is apparently going to stand over the principle, and wants public opinion developed so that it will accept the principle, that in the distribution of State and local authority moneys for scholarships for post-primary and university education, not more than one-third of the money will go to university education and at least two-thirds to post-primary.

Subsection (2) of Section 4 of the Bill reads as follows:

A grant to the corporation of a county borough or council of a county under this section in respect of any local financial year shall be used by the corporation or council, as the case may be, in the defrayal of the cost of paying scholarships under a scheme or schemes under section 2 of the Principal Act in that year or both of paying such scholarships and providing assistance for students under section 10 of the Act of 1908, as the case may be.

The implication is that all State moneys will be used by a local authority entirely for post-primary education and that none of the State money need be used in any way for assisting in the provision of scholarships to the universities. There is in that subsection an emphasis that the Minister is primarily concerned with scholarships for post-primary education. I am referring the Minister to sub-section (2) of Section 4 and the implications there. The Minister gives the idea that he is considering whether the State should give scholarships direct. He feels it would be more in accordance with the democratic principle to require a certain amount of local authority finance and also to give a certain amount of acquiescence in local authority ideas as to how they should spend the money to work under the scheme in this Bill and on the basis of the distribution of money and the making of schemes on the lines of the Local Authorities (Scholarships) Act. He stands for paying a certain amount of deference to local opinion.

I want to draw his attention to the fact that the principle he lays down here may be a principle worth fostering and worth approaching, although I do not subscribe to it myself. I want to tell him it is very definitely contrary to the natural trend in the allocation of moneys raised by the local authorities themselves in the matter of scholarships. While there are six, and only six, counties that, in the allocation of their money as between university scholarships and post-primary scholarships, accept his idea, in the natural working out of their schemes up to the present, there are six that go flagrantly against it, by giving more money to university scholarships than they do to post-primary scholarships and all the counties in between do not accept, in the actual working out of the local schemes, financial and educational, the theory the Minister puts forward.

The only counties that accept the Minister's approach seem to be Clare, Offaly, Kildare, Longford and Sligo. These are the only counties where the amount given for university education is in accord with the Minister's principle that only one-third of the money is available for such education. At any rate, they give one-third or less to university education. The counties that fly in the teeth of the principle to the extent of giving more for university education than they do for post-primary education by way of scholarships are Limerick city, Limerick county, Galway, South Tipperary, Waterford and Wexford. Those are six of them. They give more for university education. They give a bigger total for university scholarships than they do for post-primary education and all the others in between give more than one-third of the total amount.

I asked the Minister to consider a glaring case. There are other counties that will be in difficulties in the first and second years and that may not be able to reach his principle for three years unless they are forced to give less moneys to universities next year and the year after. The Minister seems to indicate that he thought I was in my sleep last night, that I was either misreading or was pressing home a point in a not too fair way.

Dr. Hillery

I did not say that.

General Mulcahy

The Minister will remember that when we were dealing with the tail end of the Second Reading, I tried to put certain things before him to avoid unnecessary clashes. I think we had unnecessary clashes last night. Just at this particular stage, I want to tell the Minister what I mean. I will take a few counties and I will ask him to bear with hearing mentioned again the name of South Tipperary.

I would again direct the attention of Deputies generally to questions that were answered on 11th July showing the total amount spent by each county or county borough for university scholarships; the total spent by the same counties for post-primary scholarships; and the amount that one penny in each of these local authority areas raises by way of rates. They will also, I think, find in the same Dáil debates, in answer to questions, the number of scholarships given in every county. The Minister wants only one-third of the total amount spent by a local authority to be given for university scholarships.

Now, Tipperary, in the year 1959-60 spent £9,100 out of their rates in assisting by scholarships young people to get university and post-primary education. They divided the money— £6,600 for university scholarships and £2,500 for post-primary education.

Mr. Cunningham

Does the Deputy agree with that?

General Mulcahy

That is how the Tipperary people, as free-minded people interested in the future of their children and interested in handling to proper benefit the resources the Minister speaks about, the brains in the area, decided to use their resources.

Mr. Cunningham

Was it a correct decision?

General Mulcahy

If a county council in Tipperary, given statutory powers by a British Parliament, on the one hand, and an Irish Parliament, on the other, to raise money from their own people out of the rates, apply it in any particular way, who is to say?

Mr. Corish

Have Fianna Fáil not got the biggest Party down there?

General Mulcahy

I have endeavoured to keep Party questions——

Mr. Corish

Deputy Cunningham seems to be taking exception to what Fianna Fáil did there.

General Mulcahy

He will have to answer to his own people in Donegal. If he thinks the people in Donegal ought to do what the Minister is doing, they will have to trim their sails. I shall give Deputy Cunningham in a moment the Donegal figures. I want to ask him if the Donegal people are doing right.

Mr. Cunningham

We are getting a grant now to do what should be done.

General Mulcahy

And you will not be able to do what you are doing today.

Mr. Cunningham

We will do more.

Dr. Hillery

That is wrong. You cannot be worse off with more money.

General Mulcahy

Oh, yes; if you get more money and are told you will have to divide up the sum—no more than one-third for university scholarships and two-thirds for post-primary education. Then, in relation to your university scholarships today, you cannot do what you want with more money,

Dr. Hillery

You are totally better off by having more money. The Deputy cannot deny that.

General Mulcahy

I think the Minister ought to stick to my point.

Dr. Hillery

I shall.

General Mulcahy

I shall ask the Minister the question in regard to South Tipperary first and, if it is necessary, I shall ask him the question with regard to Donegal. In the year 1959-60 the Tipperary people, under statutory authority and in the free and unanimous exercise of their whole voice, spent £6,600 to assist young people to get university education and they spent £2,500 on post-primary education. I take it the Minister will provide scholarships straightaway in relation to examinations that are being held at the moment or is the scheme to come into operation in 1962-63?

Dr. Hillery

Next year, yes.

General Mulcahy

For the year 1962-63, the Minister will provide South Tipperary with £1,500. That is the amount of one penny in the rates there. If they raise the same amount of money, £9,100, as they raised the year I speak of, and they get £1,500, the Tipperary local authority will have £10,630 to spend on scholarships, post-primary and university. If the Minister tells me at any particular moment in my discourse that I am interpreting the Bill incorrectly, I shall spare myself and the House the trouble of listening.

Take that £10,630 which they will have to spend after they get the first year's State grant. This Bill says the South Tipperary local authority may not spend more than £3,510 on university scholarships and that they will not be allowed to spend the £6,600 they have been spending up to the present. Am I talking in my sleep or through my hat or distorting things? If the Minister says I am, I shall hear his intervention and spare even Deputy Cunningham the trouble of facing the problem he may have in Donegal.

Mr. Cunningham

No problem.

Dr. Hillery

The Deputy himself gave two alternatives, that he was either talking through his hat or talking in his sleep. It is only fair to give himself another one.

General Mulcahy

If the Minister will tell me I am wrong——

Dr. Hillery

If the Deputy finishes I shall try to explain.

General Mulcahy

At any rate, the Tipperary people are spending £6,600 now on university education. When this Act comes into operation, and if they handle the same amount as they are getting, they will get £1,530 from the State and they will have £10,630 to spend. They must cut their expenditure on university education by £3,100.

Dr. Hillery

Does the Deputy mean in one year?

General Mulcahy

In the first year——

Dr. Hillery

No.

General Mulcahy

——they will have to do it. However, I shall finish for the Minister. Assuming they raise the same amount from the rates as they have been raising for the last two or three years then in 1962-63 they will not be allowed to spend more than £3,510, where they now spend £6,600. In the second year they will not spend more than some £4,000 and in the third year £4,800. In the last year they will be able to spend only £5,500. The Minister is shaking his head and it would save all of us a little frustration and irritation if I were allowed to subside temporarily to hear the Minister on the subject. The matter is one of the greatest importance. Donegal will be in the same position to some extent. Its position will not be as bad as Tipperary because the day will come when Donegal may expect to get the same amount of money from the State as they expend. If the Minister wishes to intervene I shall give way to him.

Dr. Hillery

What is the view of the Chair?

An Ceann Comhairle

I would point out that this is the Report Stage and——

Mr. Sweetman

The position could always be met by recommittal for the one amendment.

General Mulcahy

If the Minister wants to interrupt me, I shall allow him.

Dr. Hillery

I do not want to interrupt the Deputy, I would like to explain the position.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will allow the Deputy to speak again. I will allow him to reply.

General Mulcahy

If I sit down now and let the Minister give his explanation it might save time and the feelings of a number of people. It will be regarded as an interruption.

Mr. Sweetman

An orderly interruption.

General Mulcahy

An orderly interruption. The fact that the Minister is permitted, for the purpose of assisting the debate, to intervene will not prevent others from speaking?

Dr. Hillery

Would it prevent the Minister from speaking later?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister may speak only once.

Dr. Hillery

And the Deputy can speak twice?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has an amendment down.

Mr. Sweetman

Can we not recommit on the amendment alone and then the Minister can speak twice?

Dr. Hillery

It is not an easy matter to explain. I am not certain that Deputy Mulcahy will understand my interpretation; it is a reflection on my teaching capacity.

An Ceann Comhairle

We can recommit for the amendment and then everyone can speak more than once, if the Minister is in agreement.

Dr. Hillery

Yes.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is all right.

Mr. Sweetman

Everything solved.

Bill recommitted in respect of the following amendment:

In page 3, line 28, before "and" to insert—

"provided that nothing in this section shall operate to constrain a Corporation or Council to reduce the total amount allocated in the financial year 1960-61 for the provision of assistance under the Act of 1908, or to refrain adding thereto in any subsequent year a sum not greater than one-third of additional moneys provided from the rates and the State Grant."

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister is intervening and the Dáil is now in committee.

Dr. Hillery

The main point I should like to make is that all local authorities will get money from the State. They will all improve their financial position. I do not think the Deputy saw that quite clearly. There is absolutely nothing in this Bill to make any local authority worse off in respect of the amount of money it will have. In fact, the Bill is to make every local authority better off from the point of view of the fund for scholarships for education. The point of difference I believe is that there should be a ratio between the number of students taking post-primary education—that is in respect of education after the national school, after the primary school—and the number going to the university.

There is in fact a ratio existing already and that ratio is about roughly one in eight. I have to take a figure like that in almost all countries, so that in making moneys available I think they should be made available so as to have that ratio between post-primary students and university students. One in eight was the figure I worked on. Some other figures available gave the cost of the university students' education and it appears to be about four times the cost of the post-primary education.

General Mulcahy

Is the Minister talking about students generally or assisted students?

Dr. Hillery

We get the information from students generally. It does not matter who is paying because the cost will be the same. We are legislating for assistance for students. The figures I am giving are for a ratio of one in eight and a cost of four times. That gives a figure of four to eight, or in other words, one to two. That is how I came to the conclusion that the amount of the fund should be one as to two, or one-third as to two-thirds.

Mr. Russell

That does not relate to the existing scheme; it is the overall picture?

Dr. Hillery

No. In this Bill the Deputy said that the local authorities up to now have not accepted the principle. If they had, I would not have to bring it in now. I think it is time that the Department of Education gave some guidance to the local authorities in the matter. This is one matter on which there should be some guidance because it is based on the factual numbers taking post-primary education and university education as a general pattern throughout the world.

Mr. Norton

I take it that that ratio is just the accidental working out of the matter and that you have no control over it?

Dr. Hillery

That is how it has worked out in several countries. In principle two things are involved. One is that I thought the local authorities should have guidance from the Department of Education on the matter and the guidance should be based on the needs of the situation, as far as could be ascertained. That brings about the situation in which certain local authorities at the moment are giving very much more money for university scholarships than for post-primary education, to such an extent that they are out of relation altogether to that proportion to which I referred. There is no semblance of relationship between them and, in those cases, the new scheme which will be prepared will have less money for university scholarships but very much more money for post-primary scholarships. That is in the new scheme.

Mr. Norton

That will only be when the balance has to be adjusted?

Dr. Hillery

Yes, in certain cases.

Mr. Norton

And merely for the purposes of balancing.

Dr. Hillery

It will be a new scheme which will be prepared. Deputies will understand that a scholarship scheme is an active thing and it is changing all the time. There are people coming into it and people dropping out of it and scholarships are being allocated.

The schemes already in operation will, for three or four years, be committed to expenses for children in schools and not finishing this year, some finishing next year, some the year after, and so on. Similarly, the new scheme coming in will have to be built up over the same period. In the first year, there will be a group of students who will go on to the second year, with, in the second year, a new group being added on to that and similarly in the third and fourth years. So, in planning a new scheme, a local authority will have to look ahead four years and ask: "When all our scholarship students are in school together, that is, within about four years, what will it cost?" They will have to base their new scheme on that.

South Tipperary was given as an example. The figures at present are £6,600 for university scholarships and £2,500 for secondary schools. That is completely out of proportion to what I would have because, as I said last night, with a fixed fund to work on, if you give extra money for university scholarships, you must take it from those who need post-primary scholarships. In fact, what you are doing is catering with university scholarships for children whose parents can afford post-primary education at the expense of people who cannot afford post-primary education because you are taking extra money from the fund for post-primary scholarships.

I worked out that the local authority in Tipperary would get about £7,000 odd from the State under this scheme and, with its present fund being raised from the rates of £9,000, they could look forward in four years' time to a total fund of £16,000. That will be their new scheme based in four years' time on £16,000 and the fraction of one-third will refer to that fund and not to the present fund at all.

General Mulcahy

What will they do in 1961-62 and in 1962-63?

Dr. Hillery

I would have a better chance of keeping this going if the Deputy did not interrupt. In four years' time, they would have a fund of £16,000. Each year, there will be a new set of scholarships. So, to prepare a scheme properly, the local authority would have to allow one-fourth of their total final fund for each year. Therefore, for the first year, 1962/63, they will allow £4,000; in the next year, they will have to have that £4,000, plus another £4,000, that is, £8,000; in the third year, £12,000; and in the fourth year, £16,000.

General Mulcahy asks what will they have in the first year. They will have the commitments of three years of their old scheme, about, perhaps, £5,000 in university scholarships and maybe something less than £2,000 in post-primary scholarships. That will be carried on as a commitment. But, their new scheme will be £4,000, and one-third of that will be allowable as university scholarships. The one-third, therefore, will refer to that £4,000 and not to the total sums being used, because you have two schemes, running side by side—a new scheme starting at £4,000, and an old scheme containing probably about £8,000. In the second year, there will be £8,000 in the new scheme and the old scheme will be reduced by the number of students who have left school and university.

Again, the proportion laid down in the Bill will refer to the new scheme of £8,000. The commitments in the old scheme will continue until all the students assisted by the old scheme have left the schools and universities. Each year, as the old scheme is reducing, the new scheme will be increasing by £4,000, until it has reached its full size and the proportions, two-thirds to one-third, will refer to that new scheme as it develops. It does not refer to the money given by the State alone or, as the Deputy thought, to the combined total fund of the old scheme plus the new money by the State. It will refer to the first year of a new scheme which will be a full scheme in four years' time. It will be made out according as the local authority decides how much money it will spend in four years' time and it will be on one-fourth of that money. Is that clear? I want to make it clear if I can.

General Mulcahy

The Minister is right that at the present time, according to the figures quoted, £6,600 is being contributed by the South Tipperary County Council for university scholarships and £2,500 approximately for post-primary scholarships. Assuming that that amount of money is made available by the South Tipperary County Council for, say, the next two or three years—for the purpose of clarity, I will not add to that in this argument—under the proposals here, the State would provide in the year 1962-63, £1,530 and in the following year, £3,060. Do I understand, from what the Minister has said now, that the £6,600 that goes to university scholarships at the present moment will be allowed to peter out?

Dr. Hillery

It is the old scheme, yes.

General Mulcahy

Do I understand that that scheme will peter out and that of the £1,500 that will be available in the first year of the Minister's new scheme, none will be made available for university scholarships if the amount of money left out of the £6,600 by that time is more than one-third of the total "kitty"?

Dr. Hillery

No.

General Mulcahy

What will be the position?

Dr. Hillery

The £6,600, which the Deputy is taking as the old scheme, will be diminishing as students leave university and side by side there will be developing a new scheme, one-third of which will have to be for university scholarships. There will be two things happening side by side, one tapering out, the other developing.

General Mulcahy

So that the position is that in a county like South Tipperary, on the basis of what the Minister has shown here now, on the present scheme of the 1d. and 2d. and 3½d. in the £, there will be £1,530 available from the State to go into the South Tipperary "kitty".

Dr. Hillery

In the new fund.

General Mulcahy

In the new fund, and one-third of that in the first year goes to university scholarships, no matter what is being paid under the existing scheme. In the next year there will be £306 and one-third of that can be added on to the old scheme to go with the petering out money under the old scheme.

Dr. Hillery

It is not just one-third of the old contribution. While the old scheme is running out the total money coming to the council will be the same but there will be some rates money coming into the new scheme so that the new scheme will contain more than the State grant. The new scheme will be planned to come into full cost in four years. Whoever will be drawing up the scheme will see how much money he will have in four years' time and in round figures that will mean £16,000. He can spend £4,000 in the first year, £8,000 the next year and £12,000 and £16,000 in the following two years. He must have a fund of £4,000 for the new scheme which will be made up partly from the rates and partly from the State contribution.

There will be £1,530 from the State and the difference will be made up to the round figure of £4,000 and on that £4,000 will be made the division of two-thirds as to one-third. It is the division of a new fund starting, which in the first year will be £4,000. The money coming from the rates, I hope, will not be reduced. They will still get the £9,000 for scholarships but the commitments for that money under the old scheme will be reduced more in the first year, in the second year and the third year. Say you have £9,000 coming in and there is £1,000 less going out because of students leaving universities. That £1,000 will go on to the new fund of £2,000 or £2,500. The rates will still collect £9,000 but the commitment of the rates to the old scheme will become less and less and the commitments from the rates to the new scheme will become more and more.

Mr. Norton

As the old scheme finishes up, the money from the rates may be siphoned over into the new scheme?

Dr. Hillery

That is correct.

General Mulcahy

In this great advancing age, with more and more money going into education, is the Minister's proposal that the South Tipperary County Council will be prevented from spending for university scholarships the money they are spending to-day? That is the progressive plan the Minister puts before us.

Dr. Hillery

Would the Deputy have the money taken from post primary education to give to university education?

General Mulcahy

I am saying that the South Tipperary County Council, a popularly elected body, close to the people and with a very great educational tradition in the institutions that are there, have pursued, under their own natural volition and with the statutory powers given them by British Parliament in its day and by Irish Parliament in its day, a certain line of policy which favoured substantially university education, and stands out clearly on the list of places in the country that have favoured university education by scholarships for its young people. Now the Minister is stepping in to say that the educational effort is to be artificially altered in a period of four years.

I say the Minister is flying in the face of what is a natural tradition of the people in Tipperary and that nobody in South Tipperary suggests that the Minister has given any indication of how this scheme will favour South Tipperary. Country Donegal has pursued a similar policy, spending £2,019 on university education and £2,750 on post primary education. In a similar way, Monaghan, Leitrim, Cavan, Louth, Mayo, Roscommon, Westmeath, Meath, Galway, Wicklow, Limerick, North Tipperary, South Tipperary, Carlow, Kilkenny, Wexford, Waterford, Cork and Kerry have all pursued a policy which has outstepped the Minister's figures, and the Minister, by a rule of thumb, seems to be going against that.

Dr. Hillery

Does the Deputy think the Department of Education should give no guidance at all to these schemes?

General Mulcahy

I do not understand what the Minister means by guidance. Under the educational policies available, our local authorities have pursued a set plan of giving greater emphasis to university education from the point of view of scholarships than the Minister is prepared to give. What I have asked the Minister in this amendment is to provide that nothing in the section shall operate to constrain a corporation or council to reduce the total amount allocated in the financial year 1960/61 for the provision of assistance under the Act of 1908, or to refrain adding to it in any subsequent year a sum not greater than one-third of additional moneys provided from the rates and the State grant.

I thought it desirable that a certain amount of money should be spent by way of university scholarship on the education of our young people. I thought it important that under the new circumstances a greater scope should be provided for general education under this Bill. If a local authority has been given more than one-third of the money that they are raising from their own resources today, do not restrain them in a way that will make them give less when the State is entering into the educational sphere by giving £300,000 additional contribution to scholarships throughout the country.

If the State has got the idea that it should do more in regard to scholarships, and if in the view of the matter which the Minister has put before us that this is just a beginning or a breakthrough in a situation which was poor up to the moment, surely this is not the time to tell the people who are spending a certain amount of money out of their local resources on university education that they cannot spend as much in the future? Why should a progressive county like Tipperary be prevented by a new progressive Bill from opening educational avenues to their children which they opened in the past?

Dr. Hillery

They are being asked to open avenues they did not open in the past for poor children, and to consider others as well as the university classes.

General Mulcahy

That is a very poor contribution to the poor and to the interests of the poor.

Dr. Hillery

I have tried to explain it several times.

General Mulcahy

The Minister's attitude now is that the South Tipperary County Council have been depriving the poor of educational advantages.

Dr. Hillery

I would not put it in the Bill if I were legislating only for Tipperary County Council. I am legislating for all local authorities.

General Mulcahy

The Bill which the Minister puts before us is a new move and an opening up of a new situation. The Minister hopes this is the beginning of something better. In the opening up of what he offers as a new hope educationally for people to develop their brains, why step in at a few points and tell a county such as South Tipperary that they cannot give as many university scholarships in the future as they did in the past?

Dr. Hillery

They cannot do it at the expense of the post-primary scholarships. The Deputy must complete the picture. Will the Deputy let me explain again?

General Mulcahy

Why at the expense of post-primary education?

Dr. Hillery

Will the Deputy let me explain?

General Mulcahy

I will.

Dr. Hillery

There will be a limited fund from which scholarships can be given. If an excess is given from that fund for university scholarships, it has to be given at the expense of the post-primary scholarships. If you do that you are arranging university scholarships for people whose parents already have the means to afford post-primary education at the expense of the people who cannot afford post-primary education. If we had unlimited resources or an unlimited purse it would be a different question. If you give too much for university scholarships you can do it only at the expense of the post-primary scholarships. That is the complete picture.

General Mulcahy

The Minister's argument is that in South Tipperary, in the past, too much has been given by way of university education.

Dr. Hillery

No, too little for post-primary education, in proportion. It is out of proportion.

General Mulcahy

The Minister must be aware of the facilities available in South Tipperary for secondary education. I have indicated the various counties the Minister is crossing. At present according to the figures provided here Waterford are spending £2,349 a year on university scholarships, and £1,350 on post-primary scholarships. They are making a total contribution of £3,699 from the rates, and it is divided in that way. The Minister proposes that he should give them a penny on the £, that is, £1,128 in the first year, £2,256 in the second year, and it will not be until the third year——

Dr. Hillery

Those figures are the figures for the complete scheme which is in existence. I think it is unfair to compare a complete new scheme with a quarter of a scheme, if the Deputy wants to make a comparison.

General Mulcahy

I am making the comparison of the university figures——

Dr. Hillery

The Deputy is comparing a complete scheme with a quarter of a new scheme. That is not a fair comparison.

General Mulcahy

Can I get this clear? Let us go back to South Tipperary. At the present moment South Tipperary are spending £6,600 on university education. The Minister's idea is that, in this four or five years' scheme, a layer will come off that expenditure next year and the year after, and that a layer will go on from the new moneys coming in from the State.

Dr. Hillery

A new scheme will be built up with money from the rates and the State.

General Mulcahy

That new scheme will not allow South Tipperary to spend as much on university scholarships in four years' time as they are spending today, or as they spent last year or the year before. That is the position. As I say, Waterford is in the same position. It will be petering out in the same way. Can I take it that the Minister has made it clear, at any rate, that none of the present scholarships will be interfered with?

Dr. Hillery

Certainly. They are commitments. They have nothing to do with the new scheme.

General Mulcahy

Do I understand from the Minister that it will not be possible to add to the university scholarships scheme in Tipperary as long as the amount being paid in scholarships is higher than one-third? There are two questions.

Dr. Hillery

Does the Deputy mean a separate scheme where the rates would give extra scholarships over and above the new scheme?

General Mulcahy

No, not over and above the new scheme. At present, taking Tipperary, let us say there is a sixpenny rate struck for this purpose and, as the university scholarships peter out, they can add to them. That is the first consideration. The second is that they can add to them not more than one-third of the amount of money that comes from the State?

Dr. Hillery

No. I should need a blackboard to explain this.

General Mulcahy

A White Paper would have done.

Dr. Hillery

It is not one-third of the money coming from the State that you will have. You will have £9,000 collected in Tipperary—I am not legislating for Tipperary but I am committed to Tipperary for all the examples because the Deputy has mentioned it so often—and that money is now fully committed in the old scheme. In a year's time a big number of students will have finished their scholarships and of that £9,000 there may be say £2,500 not committed under the old scheme. That £2,500 will be transferred to the new scheme. For simplicity, say they get £1,500 from the State. That will make £4,000 in the new scheme. Is that clear?

Mr. Norton

May we take it this will continue until ultimately you have one scheme and not two running side by side?

Dr. Hillery

Each year there will be a drop of, say, £2,500 in the commitments under the old scheme. That money will be applied to the new scheme and will be combined with the money coming from the State. Of the total amount one-third will be allocated for university scholarships and two-thirds for post-primary scholarships. While the Deputy says he would prefer to have a much higher proportion of money spent on university scholarships I am prepared to disagree with him. I know what he is dealing with; he has one opinion and I have another. I think he feels the councils are going to lose and I must say again that in compensation for having a reduced number of university scholarships Tipperary will have a very much increased fund for post-primary scholarships. In fact from £2,500 spent on post-primary scholarships they will be able to spend £11,000 as compensation for a drop of about £1,000 in university scholarships.

Apart from compensation in Tipperary in post-primary scholarships almost all other counties—the vast majority of them—will have very much expanded post-primary scholarships and expanded university scholarships and while it may be a matter of opinion that we should have more university scholarships in Tipperary, I think the ratio as set out is the proper one. But I can see that the Deputy may hold another opinion. If there are fewer university scholarships in Tipperary there will be vastly increased post-primary opportunities. If you want to take away from the post-primary opportunities you could add to the university opportunities and I would not agree with that.

Donegal has been mentioned. The total fund in Donegal at the moment is £4,770. The Deputy said that Donegal would lose under this scheme but Donegal could ultimately get £12,375 and of that £4,125 would be for university scholarships as against £2,000 at the moment. They will double the number of university scholarships instead of losing, as the Deputy said.

General Mulcahy

When?

Dr. Hillery

In the new scheme. What the Deputy was doing was comparing a fully-established old scheme with one-quarter of the new scheme which is not a fair comparison. A fully developed new scheme will take about four years as it takes about four years for a student to go through the full course. You cannot just pay for the first year. It is only from the fourth year and onwards that you will be getting the full expense of the scholarship scheme because you will then have first, second, third and fourth-year students. The proportion of university to post-primary moneys allocated will be changed. I have done that purposely because I have related it to the realities of the post-primary university relationship as it exists in most other countries.

Mr. Russell

May I come in briefly on this?

An Ceann Comhairle

I hope that we have now exhausted the possibilities in regard to North and South Tipperary.

Mr. Russell

I am not going to speak about North Tipperary. I am a bit confused about this and I want to see if I have the right angle on it. The Minister says he is presenting a new scheme to augment the funds available to the different local authorities, on certain conditions. One condition is that gradually, over a period of, say, four years, scholarship schemes will be brought into line with what the Minister regards as the proper ratio between university and post-primary scholarships. That ratio in this country and in other comparable countries generally seems to be two to one—one-third university and two-thirds post-primary.

I am not quite clear about this. I think Limerick allocates 5d. or 6d. in the £ for scholarships of which I think, the bigger proportion at present goes to university scholarships or it will, with the addition of a new scholarship this year. The new scheme starts in 1962-63 and the Minister will give £ for £ in the first year up to a maximum of 1d. in the £ on the rates. Is that not correct? In the second year he will give £ for £ up to a maximum of 2d., plus £3 or £2 excess up to a certain limit. That is still substantially below the total amount given by Limerick Corporation at present. Do we get to the stage where, say, after four years, the Limerick Corporation scheme is amended with the addition of funds from the Department to the two-to-one ratio and if it is, what proportion will the Limerick ratepayers' contribution bear to the State contribution? That is what I am not clear about. Does the State in fact pay 50/50 for four years when the new scheme presumably will be in full operation, or do the ratepayers pay 5d. or 6d. and will the State pay only a maximum of 2d. plus the excess £3 or £2?

Dr. Hillery

The Bill allows for the payment by the State of £ for £ on the produce of 1d. in the £ in the first year and on the produce of 2d. in the £ in the second year. In the third year the State pays 30s. on the produce of the third penny and 30s. on the produce of the fourth penny. The produce of 4d. on the rates would be augmented by the State by a sum equal to the produce of 5d. The ceiling is 5d. The State gives the equivalent of 5d. in the £ on the rates if the local authority levies a rate up to 4d. on its own. If the local authority raises 6d. or 7d. in the £, it will not get anything extra.

General Mulcahy

The local authority cannot raise more than 4d. in the £ for educational purposes.

Dr. Hillery

I would hope the local authorities would not reduce their figures because of this. But even if they did reduce, there would be an overall improvement anyway.

Mr. Jones

Last night the Minister spoke in terms of money ratios and I raised the point of the ratio as between the value of the scholarships. Encouragement of higher education is a logical policy. The purpose of the education schemes is to try and provide a higher education for an increased number of people. There is, however, a wide difference between the value of a scholarship necessary to send a student to a secondary or vocational school and that necessary to send a student to a university. You might award four secondary scholarships to one university scholarship by reason of the value. If we put a limit to the amount of money which may be spent on university scholarships, are we curtailing the opportunities for students?

Dr. Hillery

We are not limiting the absolute amount. We are limiting the ratio between university and post-primary scholarships. A person cannot go to a university unless he has post-primary education.

Mr. Jones

But by assisting people to obtain a secondary education we are decreasing the opportunities for university education.

Dr. Hillery

That would be a valid argument if they all got post-primary education. But if you decreased the opportunity for post-primary education, then these people would never receive a university education because they would not have a post-primary education.

Mr. Jones

If it were possible, I should like to see education available at all levels for everybody. At present county councils make university and secondary scholarships available on a certain ratio, and provide an opportunity for brighter students to proceed to a university. By introducing fixed amounts and following the direction the Minister speaks of, are we limiting the number of scholarships which may be available? In my own constituency, where they have the opportunity of a secondary education in a number of smaller centres, we are anxious to assist them to get it at a cheap rate. Will the introduction of fixed amounts allow for the same provision of university scholarships?

Mr. Cunningham

It will be doubled in Donegal, from £2,000 to £4,000.

Mr. Jones

That is in regard to money, but if you take the value of the scholarships as being £50 as against £150——

Dr. Hillery

Under this Bill there will be three times the amount of money for university scholarships in the State as a whole.

Mr. Jones

Will we actually provide more opportunity at university level?

Dr. Hillery

Three times the amount.

Mr. Jones

Having taken them to the top of secondary education, we would wish to give them a higher education. But within the State opportunities in regard to openings for these young people are limited. Are we curtailing their opportunity to receive a degree?

Mr. Cunningham

Post-primary education is the greatest need at present, particularly the opportunity for young people to specialise in the technical sphere. Although Deputy Mulcahy mentioned South Tipperary several times, he did not tell us whether his view was the same as the view held in South Tipperary. Some places spend over two-thirds on university education whereas in other places the proportion is less than one-third. Both these extremes cannot be right.

When the State is stepping in to increase the overall number of scholarships, both secondary and university, they should see to it there is a proper apportionment. I agree entirely with this apportionment. For people leaving the national school, there are not sufficient opportunities for post-primary education, both secondary and vocational. Those Committees which have leant over towards university education have penalised the parents who have not been able to bring their children up to the stage where they are able to enter for university scholarships. I would be interested in seeing that more children from national schools had an opportunity of doing the secondary school course or the vocational school course with an opportunity of specialising in technical subjects. I believe the Minister is doing the right thing.

General Mulcahy

My amendment would have the effect of not reducing the amount in counties like Tipperary, Donegal or any place else providing more than one-third at present.

Dr. Hillery

Could we not agree to differ? We put both sides of this several times.

General Mulcahy

We apparently are constrained to differ by the necessity for coming to a conclusion on what is before the House. But I want my amendment put to the House.

Amendment put and declared lost.

Bill reported without amendment.

Question:—"That the Bill be received for final consideration"—put and agreed to.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass".

Mr. Russell

Under the existing scheme each local authority can decide in regard to residential qualification.

Dr. Hillery

That was done in the main Act; it is done away with by this amending legislation.

Mr. Russell

There is no qualification then.

Dr. Hillery

In exceptional cases.

Mr. Norton

This Bill liberalises the main Act.

Dr. Hillery

Yes.

General Mulcahy

Which main Act?

Dr. Hillery

The Act of 1944. Under Section (4) (b) "scholarships shall be awarded only to persons whose parents or guardians are on the date specified in that behalf in the scheme bona fide resident in the functional area of the said corporation or council.”

Mr. Russell

Is the question of bona fide qualification left to the local authority?

Dr. Hillery

The position is liberalized in this Bill. In subsection 2 (b) the aim is to—

reserve to the corporation of a county borough or council of a county by which the scheme was prepared power to award, where the circumstances so warrant, with the approval of the Minister, the whole or part of any scholarship to a person whose parents or guardians do not comply with the provisions of paragraph (b) of the said section 4.

In the Explanatory memorandum which accompanied the Bill it is pointed out in paragraph 3:—

Section 4 (b) of the Local Authorities (Education Scholarships) Act, 1944 provides that scholarships shall be awarded only to persons whose parents or guardians are bona fide resident in the functional area of the corporation or council.

Where sudden changes of residence and other such factors have occurred, this section of the 1944 Act has operated to deprive students, otherwise qualified, of the right to apply for a scholarship. To overcome the hardship involved in such cases Section 2 (1) (b) of the Bill reserves to the corporation or council power to award, where the circumstances so warrant, with the approval of the Minister, the whole or part of a scholarship to a person whose parents or guardians do not comply with the residence clause.

In other words, power is given to the local authority to overcome the difficulty.

Mr. Russell

That would cover civil servants, members of the Garda Síochána and Army personnel transferred from one area to another.

Dr. Hillery

That is right.

Question put and agreed to.