Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 23 Nov 1961

Vol. 192 No. 5

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Contributory Old Age Pensions: Qualifications.

30.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he is aware of the hardship caused to applicants for contributory old age pensions who have up to thirty years stamps on their insurance cards, but who do not qualify for pension because of the fact that they have become self-employed, or for some other reason have not stamped cards over the fifteen years before they reached seventy years of age; and if he will consider amending the Act in order to allow them to qualify.

Under the Social Welfare (Amendment) Act, 1960, one of the contribution conditions for old age (contributory) pension is that the average per contribution year of the contributions paid or credited in respect of a claimant from his date of entry into insurance is not less than 48.

Contributions for old age (contributory) pension purposes first commenced to be payable on 2nd January, 1961. The Act, however, included provision for the making of regulations to enable previous insurance under the National Health Insurance Acts and the Social Welfare Acts to reckon for pension purposes, and to modify the contribution conditions in the case of persons who were insured under the National Health Insurance Acts.

The necessity to modify the contribution conditions in the case of persons insured under the National Health Insurance Acts arose because, unlike the present scheme of comprehensive insurance under the Social Welfare Acts, which commenced on 5th January, 1953, national health insurance did not allow credits in respect of proved unemployment, and provision was made in those Acts for the cessation of insurance. Under the regulations made, a man who reached the age of 60 before 5th January, 1953, or a woman who reached that age before 6th July, 1953, must satisfy the yearly average contribution condition over one or other of two alternative periods whichever is the more favourable to the claimant. Having regard to the difficulties mentioned, the maximum period over which the average could be reckoned was considered to be the last fifteen contribution years before attainment of age 70.

Persons who, by reasons of self-employment or otherwise, ceased to be insurably employed under the National Health Insurance Acts and who had not less than 104 contributions paid since entry into insurance, had the option of continuing their insurance by paying contributions voluntarily, and such voluntary contributions count equally with employment contributions in determining the yearly average of contributions for pension purposes. As persons now contributing to old age (contributory) pension who become self-employed may maintain their pension position only by the payment of voluntary contributions, I do not accept that there is a case for providing special treatment for those persons who fail to qualify for pension because they did not exercise their right to become voluntary contributors in the past.

If people now are aware that there is such a thing as contributory old age pensions which can be qualified for by being a voluntary contributor, does the Minister not agree that it is inequitable that people who were not aware of that, because it did not exist, should be disqualified from drawing a contributory old age pension, even though they have had up to 30 years' stamps on their cards without a break? Further, would the Minister not agree that it is also inequitable that a person who entered insurance at age 59 and intermittently stamped his card until age 70 will qualify for a contributory old age pension, while somebody who has been stamping cards all his life until for one reason or another he ceased doing so 15 years before age 70 is disqualified?

I think the Government went as far as it was reasonable to expect them to go in allowing people who had not, in fact, contributed to the contributory old age pension scheme at all to qualify. They could not be expected to cover all people who might have decided to become voluntary contributors if they had known that this contributory old age pension scheme would be introduced.

Does the Minister think that it is just to those who, as Deputy Tully has stated in his question, have 30 years' stamps and who are disqualified just because they have gone into self-employment in later years when the contributory old age pension scheme came completely out of the blue? Does he think it fair to have taken all their stamp money during these years without giving them any recompense?

The stamp money they contributed during those years did not contain any element in respect of contributory old age pensions.

Mr. Donnellan

We know that.

That is beside the point. Nevertheless, they paid it.

31.

asked the Minister for Social Welfare if he is aware of the hardship caused to workers who have reached seventy years of age and who, because of their employment as officers by local authorities, have not had their insurance cards stamped, and do not qualify for contributory old age pensions; and if he will consider amending the Act in order to cater for this type of worker.

It has been the position for many years that persons employed in a permanent and pensionable capacity in the civil service, under local and public authorities, in the teaching profession and certain other occupations, pay a reduced rate of insurance contribution which provides cover only for widows' and orphans' pensions. When the new scheme of old age (contributory) pensions was being formulated it was decided that the existing framework of insurance should be maintained, and that persons in the employments referred to, who are eligible to receive pensions from public funds, should be excluded from the scope of the scheme. Accordingly, these persons continue to be insurable only for widows' and orphans' pensions. Where the employment is not permanent and pensionable full rate contributions are payable, and the employees are covered for old age (contributory) pension.

In connection with the award of old age (contributory) pensions past contributions are taken into account, but the reduced rate contributions paid by the classes in question are excluded, because contributions paid by such classes in the future are expressly disregarded for pension purposes by Section 16 of the Social Welfare (Amendment) Act, 1960.

I am not aware of any hardship and I do not consider that an amendment of the relevant Act is called for.

Is the Minister not aware that even if some of these people qualify for a pension, that does not mean that they get a pension; that they may get only a gratuity, for one reason or another; and that in many cases the amount of pension they get is less than £1 per week; and does he not agree that an effort should be made to bring these people who are disqualified through no fault of their own into the existing social welfare contributory old age pension scheme?

The position is that when this scheme was introduced, it was decided that these people who were qualified to receive pensions from public funds should be omitted and they, as I said, do not pay contributions towards the scheme.

In case they would be too well off.

Did the Minister answer Question No. 29?

I did not hear the Minister. I do not suppose the old age pensioners will, either.

The Deputy was interrupting at the time.

The Deputy should stay awake.

There are a whole lot of old age pensioners who will not stay awake, who will be dead before Christmas, if they are depending on the Minister.

Barr
Roinn