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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 23 Nov 1961

Vol. 192 No. 5

Health Services: Motion.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that existing health services have been proved to be inadequate, and that in their place there should be provided a comprehensive health service based on the principles of insurance which will extend to 85 per cent. of the population, and which will provide without charge an adequate medical service with free choice of doctor, free hospital, specialist and diagnostic services and which will remove the necessity for medical cards for all those within the scheme.

This motion, while standing in my name, has been tabled by the Fine Gael Party. It is put down in a responsible way to direct public attention to a very definite social problem. During the recent general election, the Fine Gael Party announced their health policy, which advocated the introduction of a health insurance scheme extending to 85 per cent. of the population. We were met in our campaign by the Minister for Health representing the Fianna Fáil Party who fought the election on the basis that the Fianna Fáil Health Act, and the Fianna Fáil health policy as enshrined in that Act, were adequate for the needs of our people.

The Minister went on the radio on 22nd September and said that the health services were being provided under the Fianna Fáil Health Act in the most economical and equitable way possible. A few days later, at Donnybrook on 27th September, he declared that the Fianna Fáil Health Act, 1953, was the most economical and fair way of providing a comprehensive health service for our people. In that sense and in that way, the issue was therefore knit. The Fianna Fáil Party declared in the last election that the Fianna Fáil Health Act was a good Act, providing economically a fair and equitable health service for our people, we on our part contending that it was not an equitable measure and that in fact it did not provide for our people the health services they required. I am not going to discuss the results of the general election but I assert that the majority of the people are dissatisfied with the services at present administered under the Health Act and that the Fianna Fáil Party and the Minister have failed to satisfy the people that this urgent problem of providing adequate health services can be solved under the present health policy.

Our motion is based on the initial premise that present health services have been proved to be inadequate and I want to mention a few things to vouch that expression of opinion. I would list as defects in the present services a number of things. First, under the Fianna Fáil Health Act of 1953, there is provided a general medical service for poor people. This is a general practitioner service available for the sick poor under general practitioners outside hospitals. This service is known as the dispensary system of medicine. It is enshrined in Section 14 of the Health Act but that section is merely a re-enactment of similar provisions contained in the public assistance statutes of 1939 and amendments thereto.

The dispensary system of medicine was first introduced into this country 110 years ago under an Act known as the Medical Charities Act, 1851. It was a famine relief measure introduced at a time when plague and starvation and famine were the lot of our people, when thousands and thousands of them were being buried in common graves and when disease and plague were decimating our population. At that time, in the middle of the last century, a purse-proud imperial Government in England, actuated by the notions of public charity that then existed—and the bite of charities in those days was very sharp and cold indeed—decided to provide an emergency medical service for the pauper dying Irish and so the dispensary system of medicine was born.

Dispensaries were set up; doctors were paid to go out among the poor Irish and stay there, supervised by dispensary committees, to dole out bandages and medicine bottles and provide an emergency service if a person was sick and dying, provided the person who sought the assistance could prove himself to be a pauper. A person had to establish to the satisfaction of a committee designated by the ratepayers of the area that he was unable, by his own industry or other lawful means, to provide for himself. If he could prove that, the doctor attended him and he got a spoonful out of the medicine bottle. That is the dispensary system of medicine.

Are Deputies on the opposite side concerned to know that that system of medicine, unchanged in any particular, in the slightest way, is the system of medicine which we today provide for the poor people of this country? It is re-enacted in Section 14 of the Health Act unchanged in the slightest and today one of our citizens who may be underprivileged, who may not have the means available to the majority and who requires medical attention, if he is to get it under the Fianna Fáil Health Act, must first prove himself to be a pauper. He must establish to the satisfaction of a local authority, acting through its officials, that he is unable—it does not mean partially able or not well able, but totally unable—by his own industry or other lawful means, to provide for himself.

Is it any wonder that our people find it difficult to prove themselves to be paupers? Is it any wonder that that there is concern about medical cards and registration when in the year 1961 we are trying to operate the outmoded principles of public charity of the last century? That is one result of the dispensary system. Involved in it, of course, in establishing the condition of poverty necessary to enable it to act, is a strict investigation as to means. An unfortunate poor person must subject himself and his family, his sons and daughters, his in-laws, his uncles and aunts, every connection, near or distant, associated with him or his family, to investigation as to their means, what money they earn, what land they own, what chattels they may have available to them. He must disclose all that in order to get on the medical register and be attended by the dispensary doctor. The Minister for Health declared at the last general election: "This is fine; this is providing the most economical and equitable health service that it is possible for us to provide." Having done all this, under the present system, what does the poor person get? He gets the services of one doctor. There is no choice of doctor available. He must avail himself of the services of the dispensary doctor—a man who is appointed to a particular dispensary post, who, I am sure, does his best in a very dedicated way to work a system which is outmoded and out of date. There is no choice of doctor.

It may be understandable in the remote areas in the country, in the places where there are not centres of population, that a multiplicity of doctors would be out of the question and a choice of doctor might be difficult, but, in the centres of population, in this city, in the city of Cork and in other centres throughout the country where brass plates jostle brass plates, along through Drimnagh and elsewhere in this city, is it not astounding that a poor person to whom the State says: "Yes, we owe a duty to provide for you a free medical service" when he wants to get a doctor, must pass doctor after doctor right down one street and another street and must go to the one man designated as the dispensary doctor in the area?

Of course, this leads to a poor medical service, which is not the fault of the doctor. In many cases, such a dispensary doctor has perhaps 2,000 people on his list. He is working hard from morning until night. If a person on his register is in fact ill and requires a number of visits throughout the day, the doctor has not the time to do it. The result is that an ambulance is sent for and the person is sent into hospital. Therefore, the dispensary system leads to a poor medical service and to a high hospitalisation rate.

The fact is that up and down the country a poor person who is sick, to the extent that he is not just upset temporarily but genuinely sick, is never treated at home. He is sent to hospital. It follows from that that under the dispensary system of medicine, there is not provided what should be provided: there is no system of caring for sick people in their homes. The dispensary doctor in most cases acts merely as a conduit pipe from the home to the hospital. He is merely the referring agent of the local authority, referring the person concerned to hospital.

That is the system. What does it cost? The Minister for Health said during the general election: "These services are provided in the most economical way." Perhaps he had the cost of the dispensary service in mind when he said that. It extends at the moment to 800,000 people, 30 per cent. of our population. The total cost at the moment is £1.3 million. Consider the cost of running this State —£140 million. We spend on the sick poor of this country a trifle more than £1 million a year. Had the Minister for Health that in mind when he said: "This is the most economical system"?

A trifle more than £1 million a year is provided by this State for the care and treatment of unfortunate sick people. That £1,300,000 includes the doctors' salaries, the upkeep of dispensary buildings, all the administration involved in the dispensary system. All that is in the £1,300,000. How much of it goes in medicines to the unfortunate person who is ill? I do not know what the present figures are but last year the actual sum provided for medicines for sick people worked out at something around 4/- per head per year. Perhaps it is a little more now. Maybe it is 6/- per head per year. That is what this State provides for giving medicines and drugs to sick poor people.

There it is, and that is the dispensary system of medicine. I say that defect No. 1, standing out clearly in the present health services, is the fact that medical care for poor people is provided under the dispensary system of medicine. There are other defects in the present system and the next one I shall deal with is perhaps just as grave: certainly its effect on the general public has been very severe and very intense. I refer to the fact that, under our present health services, no medical care whatsoever is provided for persons who do not qualify for medical cards, that is, the vast majority of persons with limited means.

I do not know whether people will recollect that when the Fianna Fáil Health Act was paraded before the voters in the 1954 general election, many people formed the opinion, at least—whether it was actually said to them or not, I do not know—that under this scheme there was to be a free medical service for everybody whose income did not exceed £800, for all farmers up to £50 valuation and for all insured persons. Indeed, perhaps enthusiastic and zealous, Fianna Fáil supporters made speeches to that effect not understanding what, in fact, was involved in the Health Act of 1953. We know now that, under this fair and equitable policy that the Minister for Health stands over, there is no health service for a person who cannot prove himself to be a pauper, who cannot get on the medical register. There is no medical service outside hospital for such a person. That person must pay for a doctor. He must go to the chemist's shop and buy whatever drugs or medicines are necessary to cope with an illness in the family. Without any assistance whatsoever from the State, that person has got to face up to the hazards, the dangers, and the problems associated with illness in the family.

I suppose it is wrong to say that is a defect in the present health service. It would be more correct, perhaps, to say that it is a glaring omission and one which renders the entire service absurd. The result is that for many, many people illness in the family tends to be neglected. I do not believe there is a Deputy in this House who does not know of a case where perhaps the breadwinner, the father, knows that he should see a doctor, that one of his children should see a doctor, or that his wife is in need of medical care. He is carrying on on his wage—even if it is a large wage it is still a limited wage—and he is deterred from calling in the doctor, not so much because of the doctor's fee as by the fact that the doctor will write a prescription, which must be brought to the nearest chemist, directing the provision of some highly expensive drug or medicine. More often than not, because of that, people unfortunately put off calling in the doctor. They hope the illness will disappear, that everything will be all right in the morning, and neglect of illness frequently takes place.

The result is a very high hospitalisation rate. Illness neglected leads inevitably to admission into hospital. The hospitalisation rate in this country is very high indeed. In relation to working days, it has been estimated that the labour pool in this country suffers a loss of 14,000,000 working days—that is equal to seven per cent. of the days worked by the total labour force— due to hospitalisation as a result of workers not getting the necessary medical attention. Such workers inevitably find themselves in hospital eventually. That is a gap, a very definite gap. That is clearly a grave defect in our present health services.

I should like to mention another defect. When a person who is supposed to benefit by the present health services, but who has no medical card, goes to hospital, it is then, and only then, that he is required to pay. If he or one of his dependants needs hospitalisation, it is then he must pay. When a man is ill and not earning because of illness, it is then under our present Health Act that charges fall upon him. Each such person in hospital who has no medical card is required to pay 10/- per day for his hospital treatment.

That is not so. He may be required to pay.

The Minister will please take it from me. The Minister obviously does not understand what is happening under his wonderful scheme. Everybody is charged 10/- per day and the time of county councillors and Deputies is taken up running along to the county manager making the poor mouth in order to get the bills reduced.

I was hoping that the Deputy as a former Minister for Health would speak with some sense of responsibility.

I know this inside and out, and I am speaking with a due sense of responsibility.

I am now saying that, when he makes that statement to the House, he is misinformed.

I am not misinformed and I shall give the Minister some figures later which will show that I know quite clearly what I am talking about. In any event, it is when a person is sick in hospital that these charges are imposed. The Minister seems to think they are imposed but not collected. If that is the advice available to the Minister, then he should get out of the Custom House, go down the country, and find out for himself.

Whether or not they are collected, certain it is that they are imposed. Certain it is that a sick person, deprived of his earning capacity, frequently leaving his wife and family at home insecure and uncertain as to what will happen, has these charges imposed upon him. In my view that is wrong and we ought to provide another type of health service. It is wrong when a person is sick, when a person is unable to earn, that he should be required to contribute to a service which is supposed to benefit him. That is a wrong approach. It is a wrong way of doing things. It is a wrong policy.

In the last year from these charges, about which apparently the Minister does not know anything, £583,000 was collected—from hospital bills that the Minister apparently thinks nobody ever pays. That is a defect in the present service. I think most people would regard it as a serious and grave defect. But there are others. Another defect is that under the present services a disproportionate amount of money is devoted to hospitals and institutions, and services associated with them, instead of to preventive measures. Out of our total health bill of £18,000,000 we are providing at the moment—I am speaking from recollection—something in the region of £10,000,000 a year in maintaining our hospitals and institutions. We have no nursing service worth speaking about for the sick in their own homes. We have no service providing for the care of the aged in their own homes. All these must go into the county home, or elsewhere. We have no proper psychiatric visiting service. Again, into the hospital with them. As I have already mentioned, we have no domiciliary or general practitioner medical service for people outside hospital. We do not spend money on trying to prevent sickness, in dealing with sickness in the home. We spend money and vast sums of money—I am sure, well-spent money —in dealing with the eventual results of sickness.

We provide first rate hospitals, well staffed, and a first rate service associated with these hospitals. That is all to the good but if the emphasis were placed the other way and if we tried to develop, in association with the doctor in general practice, adequate nursing and other services, indeed, the need for hospitals might be very much less.

Another defect, of course, of the present policy is—and it only needs to be said and passed from—that many thousands of our people pay for the health services and are debarred from benefiting under them. That is socially unjust. It is socially wrong that citizens, members of the community, should be asked to pay for what the Minister for Health has described as a comprehensive health service and yet be debarred from benefiting under it. Obviously, that is a defect and I doubt if it can be stood over.

This health service, this comprehensive health scheme the Minister talks about, has, I think, in fact, proved itself to be unworkable. I do not think there is any Deputy, not even the Minister, who did as much as I did to make the Health Act of 1953 work. When I became Minister for Health, my immediate predecessor had just signed an order bringing the Health Act into operation on whatever day it was—1st August, 1954. He threw it at the country just as somebody would throw out a bucket of mash. He made no efforts, good, bad or indifferent, to make it work.

For close on three years of hard, painstaking work, I did my utmost to bring the services envisaged in that Act into operation. I do not believe that anyone else did as much. I assert now that the Act was unworkable and has proved to be unworkable. In regard to these comprehensive health services the Minister talks about, do Deputies appreciate that in the Health Act of 1953, there is provision for a dental service not merely for the pauper and the poor but for every insured person, every farmer up to £50 and every person having a limited income? That dental service is provided for under the Health Act and put in as a section in an Act of Parliament.

In addition, there is to be provided an ophthalmic service, an aural service and a variety of other services. Where are they? What has happened to them? The people have never seen them. The dental service that was supposed to be available to every person whose income did not exceed £800, to every farmer up to £50 and to all insured workers in the State and their dependants—has that ever come about? Is it not true to say that today every Deputy knows there are unfortunate poor people in his constituency who get their teeth taken out one decade and hope to have the dentures put in the next, if they are fortunate? That is part of this fair and equitable comprehensive health service for which the Minister for Health took time on the radio to assure the people was well worth voting—the dental service, with thousands, I suppose—I am sure that is not an exaggeration—of our people developing stomach ulcers and gastric upsets because they cannot get teeth, if they are extracted, replaced. They must suffer on.

In regard to the ophthalmic service, anyone who gets glasses today is made wear the badge of poverty. That is supposed to be an ophthalmic service which the Minister regards as sound economically and fair. We spend on our dental—I have no doubt the Minister has this in mind—our ophthalmic and aural services—these essential services—a total sum of £200,000. Is it not about time we stopped codding ourselves and had the courage to say, as I used to say when I was Minister for Health, that it is not possible to provide an adequate dental service under the policy enshrined in the Health Act? You cannot do it because this country is not large enough to do it. We have not the means whereby it can be done. The State cannot provide these things and we are only codding ourselves and the people if we try to suggest that the State can. These things cannot be provided except on the basis of a common, communal effort—on the basis of everyone, according to his means, contributing to the cost.

I assert that the present services have been proved to be inadequate. I want, in passing from the Health Act—I hope in interring it—to say this as its epitaph. There used to be a lot of talk in this House about the mother and child health scheme, the free for all mother and child service. That used to ring round this House. After that, the Health Act came into being. The Health Act was born of political intrigue. It was put forward hastily in 1953 as a political stunt with a dubious parentage. It had a premature birth and a very unhappy childhood.

The Deputy told us he delivered it.

It has now reached adult age as a feeble weakling.

Somebody has to deliver a child that is conceived.

This unhappy offspring of a temporary political union between Deputy Dr. Browne and the Fianna Fáil Party is now a problem which has to be dealt with. It does not measure up to the social requirements of the people and the sooner we get rid of it the better. We believe the time has come for such a change.

We put forward in this motion our views, views that have been considered carefully over a number of years in a responsible way. We believe that this country, the same as any other country that knows its mind and is concerned for its citizens, must provide a comprehensive health service and by "comprehensive" I mean comprehensive. Such a service could be provided by the State bearing the entire cost. We reject that. We have no two minds about it. We reject it. We think it is the wrong way to do it. Deputy Dr. Browne thinks it is the right way but we do not, nor do we believe our people want it that way.

State paternalism, in my view, does not appeal to our people. Most of our people far prefer to pay their own way in so far as they can. They like to feel that the doctor who attends them is their doctor, not the doctor of anybody else. They like to feel that an essential service being provided for their children is being provided by them. I do not believe our people will ever accept the notion that used to be bandied about at one time, where you had a sort of wonderful uncle, the State, that looked after you from the cradle to the grave. That is foreign to our temperament and certainly it is wrong on many grounds.

A comprehensive health scheme being necessary, we reject the idea of its being provided free by the State. In effect, that means that you tax the few to provide a service for the majority. But, our proposals are based on the principles of insurance. We propose that a comprehensive health scheme based on the principle of insurance should be introduced and made available.

What are these principles?

If the Minister contains himself he will hear all about them.

That is all right.

Obviously, the Minister is learning something and I am delighted to hear it.

I am learning a great deal about ineptitude.

Our scheme will apply to 2.4 million or roughly 85 per cent. of the population. The mentioning of 85 per cent. of the population is not essential to the scheme but, generally speaking, it is accepted in this country that there are a fortunate 15 per cent. who, generally, at the moment, can provide for themselves. In relation to hospital and specialist hazards they have available the Voluntary Health Insurance Scheme and, if they are not covered by this scheme, frequently it is their own fault that that is so or perhaps they may not need the particular cover. But, there are close on 2½ million for whom the hazards of illness, sickness and hospitalisation represent a very real danger and it is to these that a comprehensive scheme should apply.

In considering our scheme we have had regard to certain facts. First of all, we have had regard to the fact that in our population there are on the records 406,416 people registered as farmers or associated with farmers but of these 241,942 have a valuation less than £15. If they are farmers, they are obviously amongst the very poor. We have had regard to that and we have also had regard to the fact that amongst the poor people in the country we have 161,000 old age pensioners; we have some 44,503 persons in receipt of home assistance, 47,503 persons in receipt of widows' pensions and a pretty constant unemployment figure, taken on an average, of roughly 42,000. So that there are a total of 295,000 people who in one way or another get monetary assistance from the State.

These people, and a variety of others that it is not convenient to designate into categories, comprise the main body of poor people in this country. It is clear that all of these must be included in any health insurance scheme without payment of any contribution.

I beg the Deputy's pardon. Does that apply to the farmers of under £15 valuation?

Yes, as farmers, of course.

But they are included in the 295,000?

There are two figures—241,942 land holders—call them land holders for the moment— with a valuation less than £15. The other figure——

Is a social welfare figure.

In relation to the Minister's question, those land holders of less than £15 valuation, if they are farmers, if that is their way of life, should be regarded as amongst the very poor. As I say, in addition to these, there are a number of other cases of hardship and difficulty that it is not convenient or possible to designate into categories.

But they are in addition?

They are in addition. I would regard the full figure as perhaps around 700,000 and 800,000 poor people. They would be in addition to these two figures, but not designated.

The balance of the population would represent those in a position to contribute and we have regarded those as being divided again into three categories: first of all, employed persons and their dependants—they are quite clear and there is not much difficulty in ascertaining who they are—secondly, farmers and their dependants; and, thirdly, other self-employed. With regard to these three categories, we have borne in mind that some of them will have already been regarded as amongst those who would be excused contributions, and so on, but we have taken a figure for the employed persons as being something around 650,000. We have taken as a figure for farmers the figure of 103,000. That is based on the fact that the number of farmers with a valuation of between £15 and £50 is 103,000. In relation to other self-employed persons, we have taken a figure of 50,000, which covers a variety of independent contractors of one kind or another.

Leaving employed persons at?

Other self-employed persons?

No, employed persons.

That constitutes professional men as well?

There are more insured persons than that.

Yes, more than 692,000 at the moment employed in non-agricultural work, but I should imagine that the figure would be possibly more than 750,000.

The total number of insured persons—750,000?

I think the actual number is around 740,000, taking the number of contributors as being a total of something around 750,000 and 780,000 persons. It may be more, in which event the contribution would be less. Possibly it is more but taking some figure as being a figure——

Take a round figure.

I have to work on the figure we actually took. Taking the figure to be actually that, we have considered what the scheme should cover and this is our proposal. First of all, a general practitioner service should be provided. That is the service of a family doctor, and the doctor of choice, and that should be available without direct charge to everyone within the scheme. There should be a general practitioner service available for all the people covered by the scheme. Secondly, the hospital and specialist service charges which operate at present should be abolished. There should be free hospital and free specialist services, X-ray and all the in-hospital services, available to all persons within the scheme. In addition, there should of course be available, as there is at the moment, a free mother and child service and there should be an adequate dental service and other associated services, ophthalmic and aural. There should be developed a nursing service in the home, particularly for aged and sick people. Drugs and medicines are a very serious problem at the moment. In fact, much of the agitation about medical cards arises from the cost of drugs and medicines. It is the fact that medicines are so dear that creates in the mind of many people the desire to secure medical registration.

We would propose to provide drugs and medicines for all persons excused payments of contributions because they are in receipt of State assistance under one heading or another. They should be provided with all drugs and medicines without any charge and the balance of the people under the scheme should be provided with drugs and medicines at half price. That would involve the preparation of a national list. It would involve an assessment of prices of different drugs and medicines. It is not impossible; it can be done without much difficulty. The insurance scheme would cover half the cost involved. In other words, the person getting a prescription at a chemist shop will pay half the cost and the chemist will get the other half from the insurance fund. We worked out the cost of this carefully. The Minister in the election campaign asserted that we had not considered the cost. That was a fair comment but we have considered it very carefully.

We believe the general practitioner service will cost no more—when I say no more, I am not belittling the sums involved; I am referring to a ceiling— than £3 million a year. The cost of the hospital and specialist service in the scheme is represented merely by the remission of present charges. In other words, the scheme is based on the existing hospital and specialist facilities which unfortunately could not be covered by insurance because the cost was far too great. They would have to be continued as they are at the moment. They would cost £583,000.

That is an absurd approach. However, go ahead.

I think it is a very sound approach. I think it is the approach that is made in England and elsewhere. If the Minister bothered to study the matter without making silly remarks, he would understand what is involved. This is an insurance scheme to provide for individual health services. It is based on the existing hospital and specialist services which are provided.

So this is additional to the present cost?

It is in place of the present individual health services. The cost of the hospital and specialist services would be represented by the remission of present charges, £583,000.

Oh, no. What is the all-in cost? That is the point.

Would the Minister take down his little notes and we will test his totting afterwards. Has the Minister got the first two figures: £3 million for the general practitioner service and £583,000 for the hospital and specialist service? The cost of the mother and child service is known, £700,000. These exclude maternity cash payments and matters of that kind. The cost of providing drugs and medicines in the way I have mentioned —and this has been very carefully considered—will be £2 million per year. That is the provision of free drugs and medicines for persons in receipt of social assistance and at half price for the balance. We have taken a costing of the dental services—and this is difficult to be certain about—but we have taken a cost of £1 million per year for this service.

At the moment we provide less than £200,000 for dental and other services. We believe a proper ophthalmic and aural service will cost £500,000 a year. We believe other services which will need developing will cost £500,000 a year. The total cost of the scheme will be £8,283,000. That will be the cost of these different services in relation to the provision of health services for the individual.

All on top of £18,000,000.

No. The Minister is a very old campaigner. He believes that if you say a thing once and keep on saying it, eventually you will convince yourself you are right. It is in place of the present individual health service. Does the Minister understand that? You do not provide the dispensary service; you abolish it. You do not provide the services which are there at the moment; you abolish them. In place of that you provide these services financed in the way I have indicated.

Do I understand the Deputy correctly that his proposal is to abolish the hospital services?

No, it is not. Will the Minister contain himself and perhaps we may make some progress? The total cost will be £8,283,000. I mentioned that the scheme will be financed on the recognised principles of insurance, insurance in relation to our social welfare legislation. That is on the basis of thirds. The State will contribute at the start of this scheme one-third of the cost, which will be £2,761,000. That will leave a total to be financed by contributions of £5½ millions. There will be a contribution of 1/6d. per week from each employed person, plus a contribution of a like amount from each employer. Taking employed persons at the low figure of 650,000—I think the figure in fact will be higher, in which event the contribution would be less—the contribution of 1/6d. per week from each of 650,000 employed persons, plus a contribution of a like amount from the employers, will amount to £5,070,000.

I mentioned that we have taken the figure for farmers as 103,000. But amongst those between £15 and £20 valuation there are 33,000 farmers. We propose to bring those 33,000 farmers into the scheme at 1/- per week. A contribution of 1/- per week from those 33,000 farmers will yield £85,000. For the balance of the farmers we propose a contribution of 2/- per week. This will apply to 70,000 farmers. It should be possible to scale that 2/- in a variety of ways. Perhaps the farmer with £50 valuation might be asked to pay a little bit more than 2/- and the man nearer £20 valuation somewhat less. A total contribution of 2/- per week from 70,000 farmers will yield £364,000 and a contribution of a like amount from 50,000 other self-employed will yield £260,000. The total income from these contributions to the scheme will be £5,779,000 and some odd hundreds to meet a required sum of £5½ millions. That will leave a very generous provision for administrative expenses and for matters which had not been foreseen.

The collection of contributions is a matter that will have to be considered. In my view the collection of the contribution from employed persons should be on a special health stamp. It should not be merged in the other stamps, because I think it is important that the cost of health schemes should be at all times kept under review. In a contributory scheme particularly if the costs went up, so would the stamp. It is important that the persons who are contributing should be kept at all times in touch with how the scheme is progressing. My own view would be that there should be a special and separate health stamp. The weekly stamp could also be applied to the 50,000 self-employed persons. In regard to the farmers' contribution, it is only a personal suggestion but I believe that it could be collected conveniently with the half-yearly rate demand. But I am sure there are many other views on that and many other ways in which it could be collected.

That, in broad outline, is the scheme which we propose. It has been considered carefully, fully and responsibly. It is a scheme well within our means and well within the means of the people. For less than the cost of ten cigarettes per week the average father of the average family can provide for himself and his dependants medical care in the home, necessary drugs and medicines at a cost he can afford, hospital and specialist services without charge and a variety of other allied services.

It may be said that employers would resent such an increase in the stamps. I do not believe they would. At the moment employers appreciate the dislocation which is frequently caused by sickness of one kind or another and by the fact that so many days are lost to production by hospitalisation. What is the effect of the scheme going to be? First, this scheme will slightly increase the present State expenditure. State expenditure will go up under these figures by about £900,000 per year.

The Minister will have an opportunity of speaking.

Wait, so that we may clarify our minds. I understood the contribution of the State would be one-third of £8,283,000. That is roughly £2,760,000. Half of that will be divided. Oh, I see.

The Minister must forget about the Health Act.

It is all to fall on the Exchequer.

At the moment the State provides these services I have been outlining. When I say "at the moment", I mean the figures for the present year. The figures I am reading are dated March, 1961. They may have changed somewhat since then. At the moment, expenditure by the State on the present services, under the headings I have outlined, excluding hospitals and other services, which for reasons I have mentioned are not included, amounts to £1.8 million, that is, half the total cost. The contribution expected from the State under this proposal is £2.7 million and a figure, therefore, of the order of £900,000 is involved. I think the State could bear that. I do not imagine it would bankrupt us if we were asked to provide another £1 million of the taxpayer's money for health services. That is a figure which can be stood over.

That is the effect of the scheme on the State. The proposals would also have an effect on the ratepayer. At the moment the cost of the services I have mentioned, that is, the general practitioner service for the poor, the mother and child service, the dental, ophthalmic and other services, is borne half by the State and half by the local authority. At the moment, the ratepayer must provide £1.8 million as a contribution towards the cost of those services. Under our proposals, that will cease and the ratepayer will no longer be expected to contribute through the rates to the cost of these services. They will all be borne by the insurance fund.

Would the Deputy particularise? That means he will not have to bear the cost of the general practitioner service. He will not have to bear the cost of remitting the amount of 10/- which the insured person may now have to pay.

If the Minister would only contain himself, this would become very clear. He should take up his little pen in his hand again. The total cost to the rates of these services is £1.8 million, but under this scheme that £1.8 million, less £583,000 which represents the present income from hospital charges and specialist fees, will be removed from the rates, that is, a total saving to the ratepayer of something around £1.3 million or £1.2 million.

I shall have to explain my difficulty later because I think the Deputy is getting confused.

I do not think so.

I hope not.

The total revenue from the rates this year is something around £20 million, £21 million or £22 million, so that involved in this is a saving of roughly 10 per cent. to the ratepayer, which represents 2/- in the £. There can be little doubt that under this scheme the ratepayers who do not contribute to the cost of these individual health services will find their rates bill reduced by roughly 2/- in the £.

Fears were expressed that under these proposals the voluntary health insurance scheme might be affected. I do not believe that would be so. The voluntary health insurance scheme is designed to deal with hospital expenses, particularly in private and semi-private rooms, and that is the cover upon which the scheme is based. I believe that even though our proposals would apply to many people who are covered at the moment by the scheme, in all probability, they would continue to avail of that scheme of voluntary health insurance.

I remember some years ago being very interested to learn that in England the Nuffield scheme of health insurance really only began to expand and grow after the introduction of a national health service scheme. It was when the National Health Act in England provided complete blanket coverage for all the people for health services that health insurance began to expand, because so many people preferred to provide just a little bit more for themselves than was being provided for their neighbour. I have little doubt that voluntary health insurance will not be affected in the slightest degree by this scheme.

Very generally those are the proposals which we have in mind. We ask the House, by supporting this motion, to express their agreement with us that the present services are inadequate and bad, that they must be replaced, not piecemeal, not by amendment, not by trying to put a new coat of paint on the Health Act, but by something entirely different. They must be replaced by a new policy, a policy which does not expect a man to pay for his hospital bed when he is sick and not earning, but which encourages people, as a community, to pay for the day when they will be ill when they are well, a policy which encourages different people throughout the country to realise that sickness and accident are a fearful hazard to any individual, but that if the cost is shared by those in good health, the burden is very much less for all.

We believe the health policy should be changed in that way and we say that this new scheme should recognise that everyone who contributes to it is entitled to benefit from it, that we should not continue with a policy which says: "You pay, but you benefit and you cannot benefit." We also believe that the change of policy should envisage uniformity of the quality of the service, that we should not have what we now have, inequality in the type of service provided in different parts of the country. We believe that there should be the same service that could be got if doctors in general practice were encouraged, if you like, to compete with one another in providing for the patients who go to them the best possible service.

These are our proposals. They are put forward responsibly, having been considered carefully. I have little doubt that it is only a question of time before a scheme such as this, roughly along these lines, will come into operation.

Before I conclude, may I say a word in regard to the manner in which our motion has been received by the Minister and the Government. Would I be putting it too far if I said that if the four Deputies sitting behind Deputy Corish happened to have been elected to this House as Fianna Fáil Deputies——

Say that again.

I am not saying anything against the Labour Deputies, but if those four Deputies had, in fact, been elected in the last general election as Fianna Fáil Deputies—if Fianna Fáil had four more Deputies in this House—we would not be having this debate this morning.

Deputies

Hear, hear!

It is because of the fact that the Taoiseach and the Minister are now sitting on a see-saw that we are at last beginning to get someone to listen to what we have been saying about health for a number of years. That is the reason this debate is taking place.

When the Minister was fighting the election, do you think he gave a fiddle-de-dee about what critics were saying about the Health Act? Do you think he gave a tinker's curse about criticism of the dispensary system or anything like that? Not at all. His mellow voice was heard over Radio Éireann talking to the people at their firesides, if they had fires on that cold September night, assuring them how his heart bled for all the sick, the poor, the indigent and the underprivileged, that under the Fianna Fáil Health Act a fair and equitable service was being provided. He said: "Do not listen to O'Higgins or Corish or Dillon or anybody else. Do not mind those fellows. We are your friends and we are providing the services for you." The Health Act was to go on providing this economical and equitable service for all the people until Fianna Fáil lost their overall majority and so we are having this debate here today.

The Minister is now prepared to listen to reason. He puts down an amendment here asking this House to set up a Parliamentary Committee to consider all this. I want the House to realise what is involved in this. The Minister knows well that some years ago, when health insurance was first considered, when I was Minister for Health, with the permission of the Government, I set up an advisory body on health insurance. I invited people to sit upon it and I must say very eminent and worthwhile people went on that body. They did useful work. They were asked to advise me as Minister for Health on the problem of insurance.

I did not come into this House and ask for a Parliamentary Committee to sit down and thereby seek to gag the House in talking about health or the Health Act. I set up an advisory body of experienced persons and they reported to me in a very short space of time and the report of that body on health insurance is a most valuable contribution to these matters and to health policy. I was prepared as Minister to accept my own responsibilities, charged as I was by the Dáil to formulate, on behalf of the Government of which I was a member, the health policy that we would follow.

What does this Minister do? He is prepared now to shrug it off. His Department is to be excused apparently from any work in this matter and a Parliamentary Committee is to be set up to tell the Minister what policy to follow. That, in my view, is a reneging by the Minister of his responsibilities to the country.

It is calling your bluff.

If he can say, as apparently he thinks, that he was wrong in the general election and that we were right, why has he not the courage now, through his Department, to work out a scheme of health insurance? Why should he ask this House to appoint 19 Deputies to disappear from this Chamber into the limbo of forgotten things and for the next two or three years to sit down discussing health in some back room? Every time there is a motion here on health, we shall be told: "That is being discussed by the Parliamentary Committee" and every time an awkward question arises over the next two or three years: "Can you not leave it so? It is being discussed by the Parliamentary Committee."

That is the Minister's proposal here and I sincerely hope the House does not fall for it. What we are being asked to do is to take the Minister's work, to devise for him a health policy which apparently he cannot devise for himself. We are being asked to advise him on how the Fianna Fáil Health Act should be amended. We are being asked to do in that way the sort of work which any responsible Minister or member of a responsible Government would be doing himself. I do not believe that this is sound. I do not believe it is in accordance with the way in which this House should conduct its business.

We have a policy. I believe the Labour Party also have a policy on health. We are clear in our minds as to what should be done. The Minister does not know what to do. He is in a quandary, not in relation to health policy because we know what he believes in but because of the Parliamentary situation inside this House. Deputy Sherwin, for instance, might be gravely embarrassed. Had this amendment not been put down, Deputy Sherwin, who knows Dublin city well, who understands well and intimately his own constituents, would have to tell the Minister, as I am sure he will, that the Health Act is all a cod; he would have to tell him there is trouble about blue cards and that there is trouble about hospital charges and X-ray charges. I am sure Deputy Sherwin would say so and Deputy Sherwin would find himself up at the top of the steps there voting "Tá" in the division, and Deputy Sherwin would be doing right. There would have been pale faces in the "Níl" lobbies and so this amendment was put down, a political gimmick, a Parliamentary gimmick by the Minister to remove health out of this Chamber for the duration of this Dáil.

I do not mind in what way the results we are concerned with are achieved but I am concerned sincerely to see that what we fought for in the election is achieved. We fought this election on this issue; we are sent here to advocate a better and sounder health policy and we intend to do it. I assert to the Minister that we will not end our efforts in this respect until there is in operation in this country a comprehensive health scheme available to all our people, so that we at least in this country can shape up in a responsible way to our obligations in a Christian society to provide in a better way for more of our people to live in decent conditions here at home.

I formally second the motion and wish to reserve the right to speak later on.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute: "a select Committee of Dáil Éireann, consisting of nineteen members to be nominated by the Committee of Selection, of whom seven shall be a quorum, be appointed with power to send for persons, papers and records—

(1) to examine to what extent, if any, experience has shown that, having regard to the general structure of our society, the existing system of health services does not meet in a reasonable way and at reasonable cost the essential needs of the various sections of the population for medical care and attention and, if the examination should disclose any significant defects in the system, to what these are due;

(2) to review the income and other limits applicable to the categories eligible for the different health services;

(3) to review the existing arrangements for determining whether a person is or is not within an eligible category;

(4) to consider whether it is practiable to extend the free choice of doctor at present available under the general practitioner maternity and infant care service to

(a) the general medical service, and

(b) the hospital and specialist services,

and if so extended to indicate the consequential arrangements which would require to be made with existing and additional personnel, hospitals and nursing institutions;

(5) to prepare an estimate of the cost of any extension or modification proposed;

(6) to examine the existing arrangements for meeting the cost of the services and alternative arrangements which might be adopted for meeting such costs and the costs of any extended or modified services recommended and in particular to examine the practicability, desirability and economy of meeting these costs by means of a scheme which would be based on the principles of insurance and which would make provision for and have due regard to the position of self-employed persons and persons who would be unable to contribute to an insurance scheme or for any other reason might be outside the normal scope of an insurance scheme; and

(7) to make recommendations on these matters and such other matters related to the health services and their operation as the Committee think fit."

Before I go on to discuss the terms of the motion, I should like to correct at least two misstatements for which Deputy O'Higgins was responsible. It is not true to say that highly expensive drugs and medicines cannot be secured free of charge by persons under the Health Act——

We know you did this a month ago.

——if they happen to be within the middle income group. That matter has been in fact under my direction; it has been under examination in the Department for several months long before there was any——

It was done only after the election and when this motion was tabled.

When was the motion tabled? It could not have been tabled before 4th October. The direction went out to the local authorities before that.

The next allegation made by Deputy O'Higgins was that every person, every Section 15 case going into a local authority hospital, was called upon to pay 10/- a day. I have said that that is not true. If it is being done by any local authority, it is being done in defiance of the direction which issued from my office on 7th October, 1958 —over three years ago. It was noticeable that the Deputy, having made that charge, did not cite a single case to substantiate his allegation.

Would the Minister read the direction?

Now I return, having corrected those two misstatements—there may be some others which will occur to me in the course of my speech and with which I shall deal. Deputy O'Higgins, in opening the case for his motion, told us, quite correctly, that his motion asserts that the existing health services have proven to be inadequate and, proceeding from this premise, he asked that the existing system be replaced by a comprehensive system and that this comprehensive system be based on the principles of insurance, that it should extend—by which, I presume, the Deputy means "cover"—to 85 per cent. of the population, that it provide without charge an adequate medical service, that those to whom the scheme extends or covers be given a free choice of doctor, free hospital, specialist and diagnostic services and, finally, that the scheme be so drawn that it will remove the necessity for medical cards for all those people within it. I think the Deputy will agree that I express his proposal as closely as possible in his own terms.

It will be noted that the possible proposals are based on one premise— that the existing health services have proven to be inadequate. The significant words here are "proven" and "inadequate." Therefore, one would think that a Deputy who really seriously intended to secure an improvement in the health services would set himself to justify the assertion that the services have proven to be inadequate. One would expect him to produce definite evidence, not one or two isolated cases but a substantial number of concrete instances, which, on investigation, clearly demonstrate that the service is in some or in all respects inadequate. The Deputy did not do that. He has contented himself with repeating hackneyed clichés from his election platform. He did not, as I have said, cite one instance in which the existing services have been proven to be inadequate, have been demonstrated to be inadequate.

Vague generalities, even facts relating to one or two exceptional instances, do not constitute proof that the health services, as a whole or in any significant particular, are inadequate. There must be a comprehensive and widespread generality of cases to support such a contention. The extraordinary thing about it, if you listened to the Deputy's speech, is that he proposes to maintain the existing system of health services. He proposes to maintain the existing system of health services without any real reorganisation of them, except one to which I shall come. His major contribution towards providing a comprehensive system is to waive the obligation to pay, if he is capable of paying, which is imposed on a hospital patient under Section 15. All the rest of his proposals would merely represent minor extensions of the existing services, all of which are at the moment paid for by the State, but these minor extensions are to be borne and paid for by a very limited section of the community, not all of whom will be covered by the scheme.

The existing services cover approximately 85 per cent. of the population. They provide medical and surgical care for virtually every pathological condition. If the services are in any general sense inadequate, it should not have been difficult for the Deputy to adduce ample exidence to that effect. My submission is that Deputy O'Higgins has failed to adduce such evidence in support of his motion because assertion is not evidence and ex parte statements such as we listened to are not evidence and hearsay is not evidence. It was on hearsay that Deputy O'Higgins based his allegation that all Section 15 patients in hospitals are called upon to pay 10/- a week——

I beg your pardon, per day.

The Minister does not even understand it.

Nothing, I think, should or can be accepted as evidence in a matter of this kind, touching as it does an existing service upon which almost 2½ million rely—nothing should be adduced in support of the statement that the existing system has been proven to be inadequate—except facts, facts which can be established beyond denial or controversy. That was not done here today and we may reasonably assume it will not be done in the course of this debate, because the headline has been set by the Deputy who moved the motion.

The next assertion in the motion is that the services are inadequate. "Inadequate" is a word of several connotations. It may imply insufficiency, inefficiency, unsuitability, unfitness in a special sense, imperfection or lack of skill. For all or any one of these things it might be alleged that a service was inadequate. I concede at once that the existing system of health services is not perfect. Nothing of human devising can be perfect and, as they exist, the health services are a product, not of something that happened 120 years ago during the Famine years but the end result of a great deal of consideration, interest, attention, and dedicated devotion to the improvement of the health services and to developing them as they exist today.

I have no doubt that if an investigation such as I am proposing should be undertaken is undertaken, it may disclose defects of detail, defects of organisation or administration, even of personnel. But these, I want to submit, are not inherent in the system; they are not attributes of it and when their existence has been established, steps can be taken to rectify them. But are the services inadequate because they are insufficient and in what respect are they insufficient? Is it that they do not cover a sufficiently large fraction of the population? Deputy T.F. O'Higgins cannot think so, for his motion does not propose to cover a greater fraction; it does not propose that a greater fraction of the population be brought within the scheme. Indeed, on the face of it, his motion could quite properly be construed as demanding the exclusion of 15 per cent. of the population from certain of the health services to which they are at present entitled. Therefore, so far as the fraction of our people who are covered by the scheme are concerned, it might be charged that he thinks the existing services are more than sufficient for them. I do not say he does, but that is one way in which this very loosely and slovenly drafted motion might be read.

Are the services, however, insufficient in the sense that there is some essential category of treatment for which reasonable provision is not being made? Here we must consider this question of inadequacy from the obverse side and ask ourselves whether the resources of the community are not inadequate—watch the double negative—to support a much larger expenditure on health services? That, I think, is the essence of the whole matter. We can have the most adequate and widely available health services provided people—that is, the ordinary people of the country—are prepared to divert from other uses, from their own private use, for instance, or from other public purposes, a greater share of their incomes and earnings. Do Deputy O'Higgins and his Party ask the people to agree to do this? I am glad that at last they have told the people that what they are in fact proposing is to increase expenditure on health services, even if the result of that expenditure is not to give the people any improvement in essential value.

Did I say that?

To consider this question realistically, the issue of adequacy must be related to the resources available to the community. There is little virtue in embarking on any undertaking, even on the expansion of the health services, if the resources to sustain it are not available. In the case of the health services, the only source from which we can draw necessary funds is our gross national product. The value of that product determines what we are in a position to spend, not only on health services but on every other public service and even on every other commodity for our personal use. The relationship, therefore, between it and what we spend on health services is a fair monetary measure of their adequacy, adequacy that is, having regard to the resources available to us for all purposes.

Whatever other criticisms have been expressed in regard to the British health service, no one has said that it is niggardly or unduly restricted: indeed, all the criticism would appear to be the other way. Yet the British expenditure from public funds on their health service represents no more than 3.8 per cent. of their gross national product. Remember that figure, because it is very significant. The British highly industrialised community, with all their huge resources and all their wealth, with overfull employment in their economy, working, as it were, at top pressure, spend only 3.8 per cent. of their gross national product on their health services——

On individual health services?

On their whole health services and, surprising to say, we almost equal that proportion, for our public expenditure on health services is 3.1 per cent. of our national product.

A cold-hearted economist—which I am not—might say that having regard to our low level of saving and low rate of productive investment, it is questionable whether we are not spending too much on health services. I do not say we are; it is a very sound investment that we are making, this expenditure on health services, but what I am suggesting is that the close correspondence between what we and our neighbours spend on health is a fair indication that we are not unduly penurious in the provision which we are making. Moreover, since ours is still preponderantly an agricultural economy and theirs a highly developed industrial one, 3.1 per cent. of our product represents a heavier burden on our people than 3.8 per cent. is on our neighbours. Therefore, it is not on the basis that there is a lack of financial provision that the motion is made or, if it is so made, that it can be sustained.

The word "inadequate" could also imply inefficiency. If that is the sense in which Deputy O'Higgins suggests that the services have been proven to be inadequate, it means that throughout the whole range of services the medical personnel or the administrative personnel or perhaps both are, in general, inefficient. I could not accept that: I doubt if even the mover of the motion would accept it. My experience is, in fact, to the contrary but I am not prepared to deny that there may be a few cases—and even a few is too many —where, unknown to my Department, grave and culpable inefficiency exists. We have done everything to eradicate inefficiency.

The Minister knows I never made such a suggestion. He should not be putting up cockshies just to knock them down. I have always had confidence in the medical profession in this country. The Minister never had it.

I take the motion as it appears on the Order Paper and, as I said, it is slovenly and loosely drafted and I must try to elucidate, for the benefit of my colleagues and for the benefit of Deputies, what in fact Deputy O'Higgins meant when he put that motion down. Therefore, I must examine this word in all its connotations. That is what I am doing and in the context it may imply that the health services are inadequate, as I said, because they are inefficient. As I said, I do not believe the mover of the motion meant that.

No, but still the Minister tries to say it.

As the motion appeared on the Order Paper, he may have meant it and, listening to his speech and the manner in which he evaded the obligation of explaining and supporting his motion, one might think he did mean that, but was afraid to say so. As I was saying, taking it by and large, our health services are as efficient in their operation as may be found anywhere.

And the most economical and equitable way of providing the services?

Having regard to the circumstances of our people, I have yet to be convinced that they are not, but I am open to conviction. I never approach any of these matters with a closed mind. I am an empiricist and I try things out; if I find something does not work, I amend it.

The Minister is changing his tune then: that was not the wireless broadcast.

I am not like Deputy O'Higgins. I am prepared to submit myself to the judgment of other people. Deputy O'Higgins does not want the Select Committee which I am asking the House to set up. Not at all. He might have to prove some of the assertions he made here today. Perhaps he may be on the Committee. One would expect so. Perhaps that is why he does not want the Committee to be set up; he might have to answer some awkward questions.

The last remaining aspect to be considered is whether the existing services are inadequate because they are unsuited to our circumstances. I confess I do not see how they can be. The people are accustomed to them. They are familiar with every feature of them. So are those who are engaged in them. So are those who are providing and operating them. They are, I think, certainly suited to our way of life. At least they are not alien to it, as they might well be if the system had followed the model of some more highly industrialised societies. Moreover—this is a point I want to make with some emphasis—Deputy O'Higgins himself, when he was Minister for Health, did not reject the health services on the ground of unsuitability. He did not reject them on the ground that one particular branch of the services, and only one, had been initiated over one hundred years ago.

On the contrary, it was Deputy O'Higgins who brought the existing system into full operation in 1956. Those of you who listened to Deputy O'Higgins this morning will be surprised to know that he did this after mature consideration. Senior Deputies in this House—those who like myself were here in 1954—will recall that when Deputy O'Higgins became Minister for Health in that year, virtually his first——

The Minister cannot fob the Health Act off on me. It is not my baby.

——his first official act was to suspend the Health Act of 1953.

That is not so.

Thereby clearly indicating——

On a point of order. The Minister has referred to legislation passed by this House as an Act of mine. Oireachtas Éireann suspended the Health Act of 1953, not I.

A distinction without a difference.

The Deputy is adept at taking evasive action. Who asked Dáil Éireann to pass that Health Act?

The Deputy sitting beside the Minister.

Who asked the House to give a First Reading to the Bill? Who put the Bill through its Second, Third, Fourth and Fifth Stages here and in the Seanad? Who saw that the Bill was signed by the President and was enacted as a statute? Deputy Tom O'Higgins. It was he, therefore, who in 1954, as I said, suspended the Health Act of 1953. I do not want to criticise the Deputy for doing that, if he had any doubts as to the efficacy of the Act, if he had any doubts as to the advantages which the Act would confer upon the people. On the contrary, if he had such doubts it was his duty, I think, to see that the Act would not come into operation until he had had an adequate opportunity to examine the Act, and I am glad to say that he did give himself that opportunity of considering the Act which we heard him condemn here, root and branch, this morning.

After two years of mature consideration, with all the skilled advice of the Department at his disposal to produce alternatives to the Act, if they could be produced, and if they were suited to the general circumstances of our country, what did Deputy O'Higgins do? In 1956 he brought the 1953 Act into full operation and, when I succeeded him in 1957, I found the existing system of health services operating as a going concern. That was my position.

In his wireless broadcast the Minister said he brought it into operation in 1958.

That is what he said in his wireless broadcast.

What I said was that I provided the money. That is a different thing. Let any Deputy ask himself is Deputy O'Higgins the sort of man who would be likely to impose on the country a system of health services in which he did not believe and which he thought would be unsuited to the country? I do not think so. On the contrary, there is substantial reason, every reason indeed, to believe that Deputy O'Higgins was converted to the view that the 1953 Health Act was, after all, a good thing. Indeed, when, as Minister for Health, he was introducing his Estimate for the year to 31st March, 1956, he had a great deal to say on this subject. We have listened to him this morning condemning the Health Act, root and branch, and condemning our dispensary services and our hospital services, alleging there are defects in our aural, dental and ophthalmic services, which there are, but they are defects over which we have no control. They arise from one simple cause: we are unable to get in existing circumstances the necessary professional personnel to start these services.

That is rubbish.

And well the Deputy knows that.

I know it to be utter rubbish.

The Deputy did not provide them.

Because I was not prepared to pay £2,500,000 on dental services that would not work, but it could be done on the basis of insurance, and the Minister could do it on that basis. It was Deputy Dr. Ryan as Minister for Health who put this service in the Act. He never believed it would work. It was purely an election stunt.

The Deputy is a great man in Opposition. There is no doubt about that.

The Minister never brought it into operation and it cannot be brought into operation now.

I suppose this phoney insurance scheme we listened to this morning was not an election stunt?

The Voluntary Health Insurance Scheme was considered a phoney scheme too.

It was a carefully considered actuarial calculation.

The Voluntary Health Insurance Scheme?

What we listened to this morning. New Deputies in the House may be unaware of the things which Deputy O'Higgins said in 1956 in relation to the existing system of health services.

They might know more than the Minister and that would be no compliment to them.

I have given the relevant reference to the Official Debates.

I did everything possible to make it work—far more than either of the Ministers over there. I visited every county council in the country—twice.

I think it was probably the record of your colleagues that did not allow you to continue to try to make it work very long after you brought it in. Deputy O'Higgins said:

If it is found possible to introduce an adequate voluntary insurance schemeel

He did so and I think it is working well.

Hear, hear! We have one conversion.

I never denied that.

You did your damnedest to destroy it.

Is it not ample proof of the statement which I made that I am an empiricist and that I am prepared to change my mind if the facts show me to be wrong?

If you do the same today, everything will be grand.

I do not think the Minister ever changes his spots.

The Minister is annoying them too much. They will not allow him to talk.

I am complimenting the Minister on his consistency.

Can you not listen to him?

I have not a small mind and I am not over-awed by a bug-bear of stiff-necked consistency. I was saying that Deputy O'Higgins produced a voluntary health insurance scheme for us and the early preliminary condition which he had adumbrated was fulfilled. Deputy O'Higgins then went on to say:

and if the services under the Health Act are developed on the lines which I have mentioned above——

and that has happened——

——I think that the health services in this country will be of a scope and standard comparable to that of most others.

The Deputy who said that in 1955 comes in today and, without a scintilla of evidence to support his allegation, says that the existing health services have proved to be inadequate.

Would the Minister give the reference?

Volume 151, columns 1226 and 1227 of the Official Report. The existing health services represent a natural development and advance upon the services as they existed in 1956. They are that much better. I am not claiming any great credit for that because the seed of their improvement was in the Act. It was merely a fulfilment of the general character of the services that they should have improved as time went on, as more and more money became available, as more facilities for treating the sick became available and as more and more hospitals were built. I did not shut down the building of hospitals. I made it possible to resume the building of hospitals and made sure that, once a hospital structure was commenced, it would be enabled to be carried through to completion. I suppose, however, that that is an irrelevancy at this particular stage.

In my opinion, Deputy O'Higgins has proved to be right. The health services in this country are "of a scope and standard comparable to that of most others." However, Deputy O'Higgins doubts that now, as I gather from the speech he made this morning. Indeed, I think he goes further. He roundly says that the health services which he brought into operation have been proved to be inadequate. Yet the services, as I have said, have not changed, except for the better.

Since Deputy O'Higgins initiated them in 1956 the only change has been in the relevant positions of my predecessor and myself. Surely, it is impossible to believe that Deputy O'Higgins's judgment on such an important matter as health services could be influenced by the feel of the seat upon which he sits? No matter under what head it is considered, the allegation that the existing health services are inadequate in any essential particular or to any significant extent is, in my view, not sustainable.

In the opening passage of his speech, Deputy O'Higgins told us he was speaking on behalf of the Fine Gael Party. The Fine Gael Party have committed themselves to the statement that the health services have been proved to be inadequate. I do not think there is any substance in that statement. Whether there is or is not is a question that cannot be proved or disproved by assertion or counter-assertion in this House. However, since the contention relates to a service which exists to provide, when required, medical and surgical care for at least 85 per cent. of our people and it is a service which costs us over £18 million a year, I do not think it should be ignored.

I do not think we should ignore the terms in which this motion has been phrased or that those who make it should be voted down in this House, without affording to them a fair opportunity to substantiate with evidence the allegations they have made.

You could not vote us down.

Why not?

Because you would not have a majority against the motion and this House would go out of existence.

It did not go out of existence the other day.

Would the Minister withdraw his amendment and try it?

He will not and if the Deputy is patient, he will hear why I will not withdraw it. There is another reason why I think we should accept the proposals outlined in the Government's amendment. Again, I will quote Deputy Tom O'Higgins. Again, Sir, the reference is to Volume 151, columns 1226 and 1227 of the Official Report. I wish, as he then wished—however his desires may have become warped and distorted ever since; I am quoting —that:

the misunderstandings, disagreements and rancour which have characterised the discussion of health problems in this country will be forgotten and that in future the organisation of health services will be regarded purely as a technical problem and not in any way as a political one.

I accept that position without any reservation whatever. No Deputy— perhaps I cannot be quite so unqualified in what I am about to say—no Deputy, perhaps, with the exception of some members of Fine Gael, would wish, I think, to make the health services a matter of acute political controversy, or would wish our people to get all hot and bothered as to whether all the services will be available to everyone free of direct charge, whether they will be paid for by specific taxes or contributions, as they are commonly called, levied on all who are compelled to come within their scope, or as to whether they should be, as now, on the basis of the patient's capacity to pay.

There are cogent arguments, let me admit it, for and against each one of these courses; but we should refrain from making any one of them a Party dogma. It is almost calamitous that the Fine Gael Party have said that no person who is ill, no person who is sick, in this country is going to receive adequate attention unless the bulk of the expense is borne by a section of the people who are compelled to be within what is called an insurance scheme. As I said, I think it is calamitous that such a proposition should be erected into a Party dogma. I think we should have a more open approach, a more eclectic approach, to this problem, that we should take what is good in any of the existing systems and, if it is adaptable to our purposes and to our circumstances, adapt it. But do not let us be tied up in a straitjacket of an insurance scheme or a free-for-all scheme or, even, if you like, of the existing scheme.

Indeed, if we want to make progress with the health services, we must proceed empirically in organising and developing them. That appeals to my temperament. I trust that approach will also appeal to the House.

It is just over five years since Deputy O'Higgins brought the 1953 Act into full operation. That Act was never intended to be the last word in health legislation, nor was it intended that the services established under it should be given form and shape for all time. Let me say this. I had indeed suggested to the Taoiseach before the last election that the time had come when a close examination of the services provided under the Act could be usefully made. I may say that I had in mind that the examination should be carried out by quite a different type of body from the one suggested in the amendment but a body armed with the same powers as those proposed in the amendment. The proposal, however, in the amendment is an acceptance of the desire which was expressed when the Health Act, as a Bill, was before this House in 1952 and 1953.

Deputy O'Higgins will remember, and so will the other members of his Party who were here then, that on the Second and Fifth Readings of the Health Bill, Fine Gael put down an amendment proposing that the Bill be reported on by a joint committee of the Dáil and Seanad which was to have power to send for persons, papers and records. The only difference between what was then proposed and what I am proposing today is that the proposed Select Committee will be able to report on the working of the Act, which is, surely, an important consideration, instead of reporting on a mere proposal for an Act; and that, as the present Seanad is on the verge of dissolution, membership of the Select Committee is confined to Deputies.

It is necessary, however, I think, to give the Committee some definition, some norm by which to measure the adequacy or otherwise of the health services to fulfil the purposes for which they are designed. "Adequacy" and "inadequacy" are words which, as I have shown, may be interpreted variously. They are relative terms and can only be thought of and evaluated within some frame of reference. No such frame is indicated in the motion. We do not know by what standards the existing services have been tried and, in terms of the motion, condemned. I think it is essential, if we are going to set up this Committee, that we should define for its guidance the frame within which and in relation to which the question of adequacy is to be judged. It is stated in the amendment in the following terms: "having regard to the general structure of our society". This, if the House agrees to set up this Committee, will naturally bind the Committee to have particular regard to our own circumstances, our own way of life, the particular form of our economy, our social organisations and the relationships within it and, of course, the scale of resources available to all our people. All of these are salient factors of the structure of our society and make life here what it is. Within this frame the Select Committee must proceed, then, to consider whether the existing system of health services is adequate or inadequate.

This involves laying down a standard by which the adequacy or otherwise of the services is to be judged. This we proceed to do in the amendment by prescribing in the terms of reference that the existing services are to meet in a reasonable way and at a reasonable cost the essential needs of the population for medical care and attention. If the existing services fail to do this then, no doubt, the Select Committee will report that they are inadequate.

They are perfectly free to report in full and without reservation the results of their investigation. What the Government want to know is the truth about the services; but it must be the truth and, therefore, the findings and the recommendations of the committee must be clearly based upon evidence if they are to be accepted by the Government.

As I have said, if the Dáil accepts my amendment and if there is any substance whatsoever in the Fine Gael motion to the effect that the existing health services have been proved to be inadequate, the Committee should not have any difficulty whatsoever in dealing expeditiously with that point and in disposing of it finally. If, indeed, inadequacy has been proved by experience, as is alleged here in the motion, it should be simple to submit to the Select Committee the evidence on which this assertion was based. It should then be possible for the Committee to ascertain, with, I think, equal facility, the extent and the nature of the inadequacy and to pinpoint the cause from which it arises. This, of course, must be done as a preliminary. The work of the Committee would be barren if this were not done because this is the first preliminary, this is the essential preliminary, to having that inadequacy rectified. We must know the cause from which it arises.

I think, sir, that it may be assumed that the Committee's attention will be directed to the proposals which have been very cursorily outlined in the motion but it may be well, however, to make some further reference to them. It will be noted that the motion proposes that there should be provided, without charge for all those within the scheme, a comprehensive medical service with free choice of doctor, free hospital, specialist and diagnostic services. The first noteworthy feature about this motion is the reiterated use of the word "free". It is a purely propagandist device intended to convey to the people that they are going to get all these additional benefits for nothing. It starts off by saying that everything is to be provided free of charge. You are to have free this and free that, without charge. That is the phrase used in the motion.

How can these things be provided without charge? Somebody must pay for them. Somebody must pay for the nurses, pay for the doctors, pay for the food, lighting and maintenance of the hospitals. As I say, somebody must pay for all these and who will that somebody be? Apparently not the patients, if one is to take the motion at its face value, for everything is to be provided for them without charge. But that was not what we were told this morning. Somebody is going to pay under the Fine Gael scheme. Who, therefore, is going to pay? One finds that one-third of the cost will come from the insured people, the persons who are compelled to be within this so-called insurance scheme, this scheme which, in essence, is merely a system for collecting a poll tax from every worker who is compelled to come within its ambit as a contributor.

The next person who is called upon to pay immediately is the employer of the insured person. I said, mark you, "pay immediately", but of course the employer, as everybody knows, does not pay out of his own pocket. The employer's contributions to any compulsory insurance scheme are allowable as a charge. And of course what he does is to pass his share of the requisite sum on to the consumer in the price of the goods which are bought.

The third party who is going to have to pay for everything that we were told during the election would be provided free of charge are the general body of taxpayers. That is what we were told this morning by Deputy O'Higgins. The only difference I can see between that system and the existing system is this, that the consumers pay twice or three times over if they happen to be insured persons, because the insured person pays his own contribution, he pays his share of the employer's contribution, recompensing the employer's contribution in the price of the goods he buys from him, and then a third time as a taxpayer.

It is worth while considering the equities of this situation. What in fact was proposed to us this morning was this: that these new benefits were to be financed in this way—one-third by the general taxpayer, one-third by a levy on the insured person's pay packet and one-third by a stamp on the employer's payroll. That is what was solemnly trotted across the House as being a great social advance. As I say, one of the things which the Select Committee would be called upon to report on is whether, having regard to all our circumstances, that scheme was fair and equitable to those who are compelled by law to be insured persons for the purposes of the health services. There is nothing voluntary about this scheme, either, remember that. There is no use confusing the one type of scheme with the other. Every person who is employed in accordance with the terms of the existing Social Insurance Act will be, judging by what Deputy O'Higgins said, compelled to contribute to the additional cost, to the fringe benefits and the frills which constitute the whole of the insurance scheme which has been described to us in such glowing terms by Deputy O'Higgins and particularly by his Leader, Deputy Dillon.

For all this, what is the insured person going to have in return? Deputy O'Higgins told us he is going to have the privilege of seeing on his card a stamp of a different colour, a distinct and different stamp from that which he now puts on his card for national health purposes. That is the only difference except that he will pay three times over, as I have said, for any tangible benefit he derives. Apart from anything else, is there any social justice in transferring from the general body of ratepayers and taxpayers to a particular group in the community the cost of any particular section of the health services? I mean, is there any justification for asking, say, the self-employed person to contribute at twice the rate? If we are going to have the ordinary principle of social welfare insurance applied to this, is there any justification for compelling the self-employed person or the farmer with a valuation of from £15 to £50, to pay at twice the rate at which an employee would be supposed to pay in order to cover the same degree of risk, and expecting him, in addition, to pay his share of the State contribution to the scheme? I should like to hear Deputy Donegan, who is very concerned about the position of the farmers, explaining this—I should not like to hear it in this House but I probably will——

The Minister will.

——but I should like to hear him at a crossroads in County Louth explaining to the farmers of County Louth the benefits which will accrue to them when they have to pay twice over for something which a fellow worker in the neighbouring town can get for half the price.

There is a little extra there, too. We shall tell the Minister about it.

There is one thing I regret, having listened to Deputy O'Higgins in the course of his speech this morning, and that was that I had not the privilege or advantage of listening to him making that speech during the election. I can tell you I would have had a great deal more to say on the radio and elsewhere, if only the Fine Gael Party had disclosed to the public the pig in the poke they are trying to sell them. Then we would have had something to say. However, Sir, let me go on. There was some divergence there.

Go on, or conclude?

I shall pass from this question of who is going to pay and take another proposal which is in the motion. The motion is a composite one and of course there are many components, but I do not want to encroach too much on what the Select Committee will have to consider. The motion proposes "to provide without charge a free choice of doctor"—what is the significance of that word "free"? Is it merely to give colour to the motion, to create the impression that everything is to be given without charge, as the motion says? I do not know what it means. It cannot surely be that for want of words to fill up the paper the people who drafted the motion, having said everything would be given without charge, repeated that it would be free and said again that it would be free. That everything would be given without charge, absolutely everything is what the phraseology of the motion is intended to convey, though everyone informed knows it is just nonsense.

I think, however, that the word "free" is used in the sense of not being restricted, that there should be an unrestricted choice of doctor. Is that a practical possibility? If you are to have that, it means every person can go to whomsoever doctor he likes throughout the length and breadth of the country. If he were so minded, he could travel from Cork to Dublin in order to consult a doctor. I do not think he would, but that is the privilege this Fine Gael motion proposes to extend to all patients, to all those covered by this comprehensive health service.

But what about the doctor? Is he going to have the right to reject patients? Nothing is said about the position of the doctors in the health service. It seems to be assumed they can be dragooned and regimented and I do not think it would be right that they should. Apparently, according to the terms of this motion on the Order Paper and which Deputy O'Higgins asks us so vehemently to accept, there is to be unrestricted choice of doctor. I do not think that is practicable or right, and it is certainly not right that the people should be duped into believing it is practicable. I think all I can say is that they might be given a restricted choice of doctor, a choice of one out of two or three. In most parts of the country, it would be almost impossible to give them more than the choice of two doctors. However, even there it is just a little bit doubtful as to whether everybody could be given that free choice.

The great objection which was believed to exist to this proposal when it was examined originally was that a great number of people would not be given a choice of doctor at all, even a limited one. However, I should say that a detailed study of all facets of this matter indicates that a restricted choice may be practicable for all but a very small fraction of the population. But it will be a restricted choice. There will not be a free or open choice.

If we do afford that choice, what will be the position of the existing practitioners? What, in particular, will be the position of the existing dispensary doctors? They are now paid quite a reasonable salary for doing a certain amount of work and they are in pensionable posts. If the number of patients they are called on to attend is considerably reduced, are we to start cutting their salaries and retiring them on short-service superannuation, and are we to break the long-term contracts we have entered into with them? If not, are we to compensate them and, if so, who is to pay for the compensation? That is an aspect of this matter which I do not think has been considered by any person who has made himself responsible for the drafting of this motion and the submission of this scheme to the country. It is something which has to be considered.

Then, again, upon what terms are we to ask other doctors to treat such patients as may transfer themselves from their existing dispensary doctors to private general practitioners? Deputy O'Higgins was very glib when I asked him what was to happen to the general practitioner service. He said "What you pay to the dispensary doctors virtually offsets that." That is the way he brushed it aside. It is quite clear that if we bring in this scheme, the position of the doctor is going to present a serious problem. I am not saying we should not try to give this choice of doctor, but these are aspects of this which require careful consideration. This consideration is one of the things which I think this Select Committee could usefully concern itself with.

They are not insurmountable aspects.

Nothing is insurmountable if you are prepared to pay for it; but when we bring along proposals here and ask people to pay for them, they are not received with acclamation on the other side. We are told then about the mounting cost of taxation and the cost of public services. We have to behave responsibly in this matter. It is a serious matter. While I agree the difficulty is not insurmountable—at a price—it is going to mean a very great upset to many dispensary doctors. There are nearly 700 of them in this country. That appears not to have been given any consideration at all.

Again, if you read this motion, you find there are other aspects. It implies an almost free choice of hospital. Because the manner in which it has been set out is so confusing, I doubt if it does mean a free choice of hospital. But the emphasis is on "free" and "choice". At least it is intended to convey, even if it is not meant, to the person that he will be able to enter a hospital of his choice. As I say, I do not think that is really in the minds of the Fine Gael people responsible for this motion.

I heard Deputy O'Higgins speak this morning about the impression which had been created when the 1953 Act was being debated here—that everybody was to get everything free. The sponsors of that Act had no responsibility for creating that impression. It was created by the vehemence with which the Fine Gael Party emphasised and dwelt upon the immorality of giving any service or giving anything free. They were out then on the hustings, on the public platforms at the crossroads, preaching that this Health Act was a degradation of the human personality, that it was intended to destroy the sense of responsibility which every honest citizen ought to have within his breast. That is how this idea that the 1953 Health Act was intended to be a free-for-all service was propagated. Of course, it never was to provide a free-for-all service. That was written into the Act. No person who ever read the Act could ever believe that it was. The motion I am discussing to-day certainly could convey—as at first glance it did convey to me, and I am an old hand at these things—that a free choice of hospital was intended. I do not think that is so. Even if it were, it would be quite impracticable, as everybody knows.

We heard an exposé this morning of the Fine Gael plan for this comprehensive health service. What was it in fact? It was a mere embellishment, if I may put it that way, of the existing system of health services with a few frills and furbelows. Deputy O'Higgins said: "Let us get rid of the Health Act." He told me: "Forget about the Health Act," when I pointed out that all the things which he was promising were being provided under the Health Act. Then, when we began to analyse his figures, we were told that all the existing health services, the hospitals, general practitioners, and others, were to be continued. They cannot be continued if we get rid of the Health Act, unless we pass another Act to take its place and that other Act would contain, I am prepared to bet, almost precisely the same provisions. This is not getting rid of the Health Act and substituting anything real for it but adding embellishments to the Health Act and asking people to pay for these embellishments in the most uneconomic way possible.

At the present moment we have only one set of rate collectors; one rate collecting service administered by several authorities, and one tax collecting service administered by one authority and able to collect all the taxes. What would be the cost of going every week to a man in County Louth, with a valuation of £15 5s. or £15 10s., to collect from him his tax contribution to this compulsory scheme? What would be the cost of pursuing, harrying, chivvying and harassing every self-employed person in the State? It is comparatively easy to collect from the employed person, or to compel his employer to pay on behalf of the person whom he employs, because then you have the same system. What would be the cost in relation to the £200,000 which was the figure roughly suggested by Deputy O'Higgins for the numbers of self-employed persons who would be in the scheme? It would not be easy to collect tax from them, and the mere fact that it would not be easy would add immensely to the cost of the scheme. What will be done to those who evade the scheme? What will be the position of the person who is compelled by law to be within the scheme and does not pay his contribution, if he falls sick? Will he be denied the services which he has today? What will happen in his case?

The one fundamental principle—the principle of insurance, to use the phrase which is used in this motion— of insurance is that you are covered only for what you pay, and if you do not pay your premium on the due date, then your entitlement to your insurance falls. There are certain exceptions but that is the situation in general. What will be the position— let me repeat—of the person who being an insured person under the Act does not pay his contribution? What will his position be if his employer does not pay? Is he to be denied the advantages which he is supposed to receive under the scheme? Of course he will not be denied them. No one would be so inhuman. His needs will be catered for in the same way as we cater for 30 per cent. of the population at the present time, the 30 per cent, at least, who are treated free of any charge.

He will get these advantages but from whence will he get them? He cannot get them except from the existing services—the services which Deputy O'Higgins has so criticised this morning. He will not get them as a member of a comprehensive health service financed according to the principles of insurance. He will get them from an existing system financed as it is at present by the ratepayers and taxpayers and, in the case of hospital patients, related to a limited extent to their capacity to pay.

I move the following amendment to the amendment:

To add at the end of the amendment the following:

"That the Committee report before 30th June, 1962, and that pending the report by the Committee the Minister for Health request County Managers and Health Authorities to liberalise the administration of the Health Act, particularly in relation to the issue of medical cards and charges for hospital treatment."

The attitude of the Labour Party with regard to the limitation on this debate is fully justified when one remembers that two speakers have taken up three hours in a debate which Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael intended to last for five hours. In view of the seriousness of the subject under discussion, I think it is only right and proper, in the public interest, that the Government should consider an extension of the time for this debate. However, I shall not pursue that point at this stage.

The Labour Party amendment is to the amendment by the Minister which, in effect, is a motion. We are prepared to support the Minister's amendment, if our amendment is accepted. However, I shall go on further to deal with that. This debate, in any case, has demonstrated one thing. It has demonstrated the fact that there is universal dissatisfaction with the health scheme. That dissatisfaction may vary in degree, but I think it would be very enlightening for the Minister to hear some of his colleagues on the administration of the Health Act. I do not say that in any spirit of vindictiveness towards the Minister or his colleagues. I think it would be enlightening for him, because I appreciate that, as head of a Department, he cannot take the same detailed interest in the detailed administration of the Act as, say, would an ordinary Deputy or a Deputy who is a member of a local authority.

I was disappointed at the Minister's approach to the whole problem in that he went into too much detailed criticism of the proposals put forward by a member of the Fine Gael Party. I think the Minister should be prepared to approach this whole business of an inquiry with a far more open mind. It seems to me that on certain aspects of the administration of the health scheme, he has his mind made up and will not be shifted in certain respects, no matter what the report of a Select Committee might be. It is a good idea that he proposes that there will be a Select Committee of this House because I believe they are very well equipped to consider the administration of the health scheme, and to consider and make a report as to what improvements should be made.

I want to make my position in relation to the Health Act, 1953, quite clear. I believe and my Party at the time believed that the old health system prior to 1954 smacked of pauperism and was inadequate. We voted for the Health Act, 1953, because, in theory at any rate, it seemed to provide for a better health service. I do not think that in a debate like this we should condemn the 1953 Act, lock, stock and barrel. The biggest criticism of the Act rests on its administration, and particularly on the services that are provided—or should I say, not provided—for the lower income groups.

I do not think we should disregard the fact that in certain aspects of the health scheme there have been improvements, particularly in respect of the maternity services. That, for one thing—and other things such as the provision of certain medical appliances —is an improvement on the old system that we knew. Therefore, let me say that, in theory, the Act in itself, in each line, each section and each part does not seem to me to be a bad Act, or an Act that should be condemned or dismissed out of hand.

What we all complain about is the administration of the Act, and we also complain about the regulations made by various Ministers for Health in respect of the administration of the Act. I think we should be honest with ourselves and say that the administration of the Health Act is limited, and has been limited since 1954, by reason of the fact that the Government and the Ministers are not prepared to spend more money on the health services.

It is all very fine for members of local authorities and members of Dáil Éireann to talk about the Health Act and the inadequacy of it. My experience has been, through reading reports in any case, that when the annual Estimates are being considered in the local health authorities very many of our public representatives are reluctant to provide sufficient moneys and the administration of the Health Act in many cases is limited because money is limited to those who are charged with its administration Theremountable—a fore I would say to these people—and I can say that the Labour Party members of local authorities are not included in this—that they cannot have it both ways.

The administration of the Health Act, I allege, is being governed by money. In some cases it seems to be at the direction of the Department of Health through the Minister for Health. One of the best examples of that is in the fluctuation in the number of medical cards throughout the years. It seems that when a Minister considers there is too much being spent on health he sends the word down to the county managers: "You had better go easy on the issue of medical service cards." In March, 1959, 853,000 persons were covered by medical service cards. In September, 1960, that figure had dropped to 781,000. Can anyone explain to me why there was that drastic reduction ? The only conclusion I can come to is that county managers were instructed to withdraw a certain number of medical service cards so that in consequence the expense of the health services would be reduced. The Minister for Health in a debate in this House in February of this year, on a motion by Deputy Dr. Browne, suggested that the people were better off and there was no necessity for the same number of medical service cards. Some of them may be a little better off but a lot of them are not. That certainly cannot be related to the drastic reduction I mentioned.

Might I say also that the proposals that were announced here in respect of a partial insurance scheme for health services by Deputy Tom O'Higgins are not brand new to this House. The Minister, I am sure, is aware that in September, 1958, the Labour Party made public a scheme which embraced practically everything that Deputy Tom O'Higgins spoke of this morning, with, of course, certain modifications. I might also say they made their proposals in greater detail than I suppose it was possible for Deputy O'Higgins to make them here this morning.

I have said and I believe, and I am sure the Minister's colleagues believe, there is general dissatisfaction with the present scheme. One of the biggest issues of the last general election was the question of health services. I do not know whether the Fianna Fáil candidates found that. However, I know that as far as our policy is concerned, one of the biggest issues among the majority of the people was the health services. I was amused at the comment by the Minister for Health on his election in Dublin South-East when he seemed to suggest that his victory in Dublin South-East—and I suppose it was a good victory—was a vindication of the administration of the present Health Act. I do not know whether he anticipated the final returns but I think he was foolish to assume that the people in the last election endorsed the administration of the Health Act of 1953 as it has been administered up to the present time.

If there was one message more than another conveyed to the Government in the result of the last election it was to the effect that they would have to be more liberal in the provision of health services. I am pleased to note by the Minister's amendment that he is prepared to consider practically all aspects of the health services. As I said at the beginning of my speech, I hope he has not set a headline for any of us who may happen to be on this Committee and I hope such members will disregard anything he has said this morning in defence of many facets of the health services. I know he had to make some speech. I know he had to make a reply to some of the suggestions that were made from the Fine Gael side but I think he committed himself too much. Therefore I would ask him, when he is charging his colleagues who will be on this Committee considering this whole business, to allow them to approach it with an open mind.

The Minister ought to know certain things about the administration of the Health Act and to appreciate what the problem is. This may appear to be a generalisation but I know of at least two people in my constituency who are scared to go to doctors and to hospitals for fear of the cost. That may sound fantastic. The Minister and the Government Party may say they should not be afraid of the cost, that if their health is at stake they should go to these doctors and to these hospitals. However, there are many of what may be considered borderline cases in the lower income group. They realise that if they pay one visit to a doctor it may cost them 15/-. I know it varies from district to district but that is the average for each visit. Every time you go to that doctor you must pay 15/- and if he sends you to hospital, if you have no medical service card and you are in the middle income group, the county council presents you with a bill for 10/- per day.

I know managers have been pretty generous in the remission of these bills but there are many poor people who do not suspect that these bills can be reduced or remitted, but believe they must pay £3 10s. 0d. a week for hospitalisation. Another reflection on the health services is the undoubted fact that, in every constituency and in every town in Ireland, there are people who because of the fear of the cost of medical services have gone to Great Britain to have their operations done for nothing. They go for various other reasons but, generally speaking, they go because they cannot afford the operations here. I would not say it is because they believe they will get better medical or better specialist attention in Great Britain. They go there because of the fear of the cost. That is a situation which we all deplore and which we should try to prevent.

The Minister alleged that Deputy O'Higgins generalised in his criticism of the health services. I propose to particularise, but not to give names. I have cases here of hardship where medical cards were withdrawn or refused. This is not a matter for the Minister, but the significant thing about my constituency is that, whereas in other years the result of the general review was issued in the month of September, this year it issued on 9th October, a very significant thing. However, I do not blame the Minister for that; I blame the Wexford County Council.

Would the Minister consider this case? I do not mean the specific case and I do not want him to do anything about it, but it is a real case. An old age pensioner, with a wife and a school-going child, has one son, a carpenter, who earns £2 per week. The medical card was withdrawn from that man. The Minister for Finance, answering a question here for the Minister for Health one day, said that, in his opinion, every old age pensioner should automatically have a medical service card: he said he could not ensure he would get it. He said there was no legal provision for the automatic granting of such a card, but that, in his opinion, he should get it. There are many cases in the country of people who have had to undergo severe means tests for widows' and orphans' pensions, unemployment assistance and old age pensions. They find they are deprived of a medical service card, arising out of the stricter means test applied by the various local authorities.

Here is the case of a man with £10 4s. per week, a wage that is above the average. He pays rent, 18/-. He has a wife and six children. He is expected to pay a bill for maintenance at Our Lady's Hospital—I assume it is in Dublin. Another child is in the County Hospital and he has another bill for that. These are practical examples of what happens and these are the sort of things we should try to correct in any consideration of the health services.

I think the Deputy will agree that these things happen because the Health Act is not being properly administered.

I agree with the Minister. It is not today that I first said that. I have said it every time I spoke in this House on the health services. Here is the case of a man on short time. He works two weeks in three. He has a wife and four children. His medical card was withdrawn on 9th October. Here is another case of a man with a wife and one child: another child is expected. The wages going into that household are £7 4s. per week. The rent is £1 4s. There is an important point about this case and it shows where the investigation is haphazard. The wife is pregnant and she is suffering from anaemia. She was being supplied with tablets for the anaemia. In the middle of her pregnancy, they took the tablets away from her. Now she must pay for these tablets to cure her anaemia and to prepare her to have the baby. I think it was callous. I do not say it was deliberately callous but it was thoughtless on the part of those people who purported to hold the review of people holding medical service cards.

I have particulars here of the case of a farm labourer who is living with his father and mother, who are invalids. They got a card three years ago but it was withdrawn after three months. He had been sick six weeks previous to 3rd September. I have dozens of these cases. They were all mentioned in the local authority in my constituency. The usual answer was: "If I get particulars of these cases, I shall have them reviewed." That is not good enough because the cases reviewed are those brought to the attention of the members of the local authority or of Dáil Éireann. For every one, there are 20 other people who seem to me to have suffered an injustice.

The Minister is also to have an investigation caused into income limits. That is one of the biggest bones of contention, as far as I can see, in the local authorities. There was a discussion recently in one of the local authorities. The members naturally asked, as we often asked in the past seven years, how one qualifies for a medical service card. Very shamefacedly, all of us said we did not know. I always say: "If you ask me if you are eligible for an old age pension, unemployment assistance, a widow's or orphan's non-contributory pension, I can tell you and, 99 times out of 100, I shall be right but I cannot tell anybody if he is entitled to a medical service card." The managers of health authorities say each case is decided upon its merits. There must be some standard they employ.

I suspect—I have no evidence to upport this—that the managers have got together and have set their own tandards—standards that maybe even he Minister does not know about. If the Minister has directed them to set a standard, I do not know. One man said, in any case, that there was no fixed scale: he could not fix a scale and take on himself the translation of something the Oireachtas would not do. The section was administered by investigating each individual case through the assistance officer. The Oireachtas did not lay down a means test, I think rightly so, because there would, I think, be more hardships then. What the Oireachtas did was to give the managers a certain discretion which I believe they are not using generously enough. I do not think that was valid criticism. There may be fair comment. I do not say it was intended to be critical of Ministers or perhaps of Dáil Éireann, but it is a fair excuse for members of a local authority to say: "Because Oireachtas Éireann did not lay down any means test, I am not going to lay down any means test." They have discretion and the criticism of members of a local authority is that they do not use this discretion generously enough.

We have to be realistic as far as the means test is concerned. Here is the case of a labourer with, say, £7 a week. He has a few children and maybe they are working. When the local authority come to assess means, they include the means of every person in the household. Under the Public Assistance Act, I suppose sons and daughters are supposed to contribute to the upkeep and welfare of their parents. That may morally be pure, so to speak, but it does not happen. I do not think we expect it to happen. A chap with £4 or £5 a week has a certain standard to keep up in 1961. If he is going to live in society, if he is to have the same standard as other chaps or girls in his profession, he must be given or allowed to keep a liberal allowance during the week. I think, therefore, that as far as the assessment of means in a household is concerned, there must be an overhaul of that machinery. I certainly welcome any investigation the Minister intends to hold in that respect.

The Minister also proposes to provide for an investigation into existing arrangements to determine whether a person is or is not within an eligible category. I think that ought to be done. I had occasion to question the Minister last week about the annual reviews that take place. The Minister said—I know he said it with his tongue in his cheek—that every single medical card is investigated every year. With the existing machinery, I think that would be impossible.

That is what we are trying to do and what they are supposed to do.

That is why I said the Minister spoke somewhat with his tongue in his cheek. I do not believe it is done. I think spot checks are done. I thought the method was that employed by investigation officers in the Department of Social Welfare who investigate a certain number a year. However, if we are to have any sort of satisfaction amongst these medical service card holders or would-be medical service card holders, I think there has to be this review which the Minister says must be held by the local authority.

Debate adjourned.
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