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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 7 Dec 1961

Vol. 192 No. 9

Health Services: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Mr. T.F. O'Higgins on 23rd November, 1961:
That Dáil Éireann is of opinion that existing health services have been proved to be inadequate, and that in their place there should be provided a comprehensive health service based on the principles of insurance which will extend to 85 per cent. of the population, and which will provide without charge an adequate medical service with free choice of doctor, free hospital, specialist and diagnostic services and which will remove the necessity for medical cards for all those within the scheme.
Debate resumed on the following amendments:
To delete all words after "That" and substitute: "a select Committee of Dáil Éireann, consisting of nineteen members to be nominated by the Committee of Selection, of whom seven shall be a quorum, be appointed with power to send for persons, papers and records—
(1) to examine to what extent, if any, experience has shown that, having regard to the general structure of our society, the existing system of health services does not meet in a reasonable way and at reasonable cost the essential needs of the various sections of the population for medical care and attention and, if the examination should disclose any significant defects in the system, to what these are due;
(2) to review the income and other limits applicable to the categories eligible for the different health services;
(3) to review the existing arrangements for determining whether a person is or is not within an eligible category;
(4) to consider whether it is practicable to extend the free choice of doctor at present available under the general practitioner maternity and infant service to
(a) the general medical service, and
(b) the hospital and specialist services,
and if so extended to indicate the consequential arrangements which would require to be made with existing and additional personnel, hospitals and nursing institutions;
(5) to prepare an estimate of the cost of any extension or modification proposed;
(6) to examine the existing arrangements for meeting the cost of the services and alternative arrangements which might be adopted for meeting such costs and the costs of any extended or modified services recommended and in particular to examine the practicability, desirability and economy of meeting these costs by means of a scheme which would be based on the principles of insurance and which would make provision for and have due regard to the position of self-employed persons and persons who would be unable to contribute to an insurance scheme or for any other reason might be outside the normal scope of an insurance scheme; and
(7) to make recommendations on these matters and such other matters related to the health services and their operation as the Committee think fit."— (Minister for Health).
To add at the end of the amendment the following:
That the Committee report before 30th June 1962 and that pending the report by the Committee the Minister for Health request County Managers and Health Authorities to liberalise the administration of the Health Act particularly in relation to the issue of medical cards and charges for hospital treatment.— (Deputy Corish.)

When speaking last night, I referred to the home assistance officers and it was my intention to try to get some sense of appreciation of their difficulties in administering the Health Act. A good number of them have been complaining repeatedly and, in consequence, are on the verge of collapse in most cases. They could be described as suffering a great deal from frustration. When this Committee is set up, a good deal of time could usefully be spent on examining the dispensary system and, in particular, paying strict regard to the dispensary atmosphere.

There is great need for some arrangement to offset the delay involved for many people who must avail of the system. Most people who attend spend three or four hours a day at dispensaries. There is also the problem of the married man with a medical card who is entitled to dispensary services but who does not need to be out of employment although he is ill. No facilities are afforded to that man at night. There is need for night dispensaries for people who want to avail of them. We should have a review of the location of dispensaries so as to ensure that people will have the services of the dispensary near them. Recently, I came across a case where a man living 250 yards from the local dispensary went there for attention and was told he would have to travel three-and-a-half miles because he was living on the wrong side of the road. He was not a resident of County Dublin—he lives in north-west Dublin—but he was told he would have to go into the county to obtain dispensary services.

Other problems exist in regard to the choice of doctor. We have the situation where persons living in Cabra require a doctor late at night. They are given a telephone number to ask for a doctor to come to see them but the doctor is found not to be available. The locum is found to live at Finglas and he cannot come and says: “I shall see you to-morrow.” There is a good deal of that happening all over the city.

Another undoubted grievance is the hospital charges. Very often people are charged 10/- a day while the social welfare benefit they get is £3.12.0 a week. How can anybody expect a person to pay £3.10. a week out of £3.12. and run a home also? I heard of a case recently of a person living in a small dwelling having an income of approximately £12 a week being asked to pay 18/- a day for his child in hospital. He has made several representations about his problem but is told nothing can be done for him. I came across another case of a man with £10.1. a week whose wife has been in hospital for the past three months. He has a son in hospital for the past six weeks and he has four other children. He is expected to pay for them in hospital. Simultaneously he is obliged to pay someone to look after the other children while he is out at work.

I also consider it very wrong that, when the head of the household falls ill, he does not get the relief he anticipates; if members of his family are working, their earnings are taken into account in assessing whether or not he should get a medical card. I know of a case in Finglas. There is a woman there suffering from paralysis. She has to travel from Finglas to James's Street once a week to get the tablets she requires, and she has to pay 12/6d. for them. The income in her home is £9.15. a week. There are eight children. I have come across another case where a man has £9.2s. a week. He has two children in hospital. There is another suffering from a wasting disease in the stomach. He has been told that the child must get special food. He must get a special type of biscuit which costs 1/9d. a packet per day. He must get a block of ice cream and that ice cream must be a certain firm's ice cream. He must be given veal and liver and boiled fish. This family has been refused a medical card. This woman is confronted with the problem of conforming to this diet for this child and, at the same time, feeding the rest of the family. Needless to remark the woman finds herself in difficulty in relation to paying her rent and recently she was threatened with eviction.

These are types of cases that clearly indicate the unsatisfactory position that exists with regard to the medical card system. There is widespread dissatisfaction and I am sure every Deputy is plagued with complaints about the operation of the Health Act so far as the issue of medical cards is concerned. If this proposed committee does nothing else than recommend some proper and positive policy in this matter and does away with the present unsatisfactory position in which a card is given to one and not to another, both having the same means, they will do a good day's work. Last night the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Lenihan, said every local authority had a guide or a rule of thumb. It is clearly evident in Dublin that there is no such guide or rule of thumb so far as the issue of medical cards is concerned and there is very grave need for the institution of some guide or rule of thumb.

Another matter to which I should like to refer is the manner in which this Health Act is charged for, or levied, if you like, by way of impost on the rates. We are told that the total demand for next year on the ratepayers of Dublin will be increased by £104,350. At the moment three-quarters of the rates are being expended on the Health Act. That postulates the problem of how this increase will be met. If there are to be improvements will the improvements come about at the expense of the ratepayers? In speaking of ratepayers I have in mind in particular workingclass people endeavouring to buy their own homes. There is no doubt about it; some relief will have to be given to these people. Perhaps the suggested Committee could do a useful job in making recommendations in that regard.

The Labour Party have advocated in their amendment a date line for this Committee to report back. There is good reason for that. We have a motion from Fine Gael; if it is passed, there is no indication of how many years it would take to bring about the reliefs recommended in relation to the operation of the Health Act. Similarly, if the Minister's amendment is accepted without a date line we shall find ourselves in the same unsatisfactory position. I believe that, if this Dáil is to fall on anything, it deserves to fall in relation to the unsatisfactory operation of the Health Act if nothing is done to remedy the present position. What motivated the Labour Party in insisting on a date line was the urgency, the clamour, the repeatedly expressed desire on the part of the people to have improvements in the Health Act, particularly in relation to the issue of medical cards, charges in hospitals, and the operation of the dispensary system. As I said last night, there are many features in the Act that are undoubtedly satisfactory. There are other features which require immediate alteration.

I am neither an accountant nor a mathematician. I can speak only from experience. I cannot decide whether the Fine Gael motion is as good as it is said to be in regard to the financial side of it. I accept the motion in principle in so far as it aims at spreading the cost in such manner that there will be no great hardships. It should be the aim of every Government to spread costs because then they do justice to everyone. We all know, however, that there are sections of the community who would rather have what they are getting for nothing. That is the whole problem.

With regard to this proposal by the Fine Gael Party, it sounds all right, but I do not accept their conclusions. They say it would cost about 1/6d. per head for those who benefit, excluding those, of course, who are unemployed and who would not be asked to pay any subscription. It would cost the State about another £1,000,000. I am not accepting that conclusion. While there is something to be said for the proposal, I agree with the Government that the matter should stand up to examination.

I am never very much impressed by what I hear in the Dáil. There is good advocacy on both sides, and good advocates can make a pretty good show. Defending advocates in court usually try to cover up. That is why one will find a good advocate trying to prove a murderer innocent or hang an innocent man. Likewise, here in this House, one hears a good case made on both sides. The only way in which the case can be proved is if it stands up to close examination. In court, they have a way of doing that in the form of cross-examination. That is not allowed here. You can tie a person down by putting one or two questions to him in court and his whole case will fall, even though it appeared to be a very good case. Therefore, I am prepared to accept that. The principle sounds all right. It means that the cost would be spread. The rates would save and there would be no great hardship for anyone. At the same time, I am not accepting the financial conclusions. That is why I am prepared to accept the Government's amendment.

But I am going to go further and agree with the amendment of the Labour Party, or at least with the principle of the amendment, that there should be some time limit for reporting back and that the existing Act should be liberalised in the meantime. I have put down a short amendment extending the time limit to 30th November. My reason for doing so is that I do not believe that such a huge task as this, involving so much sifting of evidence, summoning of witnesses and so on, can be carried out and a report made in June.

In fact, I do not believe the Government would accept the Labour Party amendment because it ties the Committee to a report by 30th June. I do not believe the Government will accept that. I have no reason for knowing they will not but I do not believe they will. Therefore, to save the principle of the amendment, I propose to insert the words "30th November." Perhaps the Government would then accept the amendment as amended. It is up to the Labour Party to think of that between now and 2 o'clock. If their amendment is not accepted and if the Government's amendment is accepted, then we will have an amendment carried without any time limit and all the things we fear will arise. So it would be advisable for the Labour Party to consider that aspect of the matter and accept my amendment of their amendment—that the time limit be extended to 30th November.

I do not believe there will be any election inside the next two or three years. Whatever was said about this Government in the past, it is said that it is now a good Government. It may become a Utopian Government because they are meeting all reasonable complaints and they are prepared to set up commissions and examine proposals put forward. It does not matter who the personnel is. That should not matter. I know it matters a lot to some people but from the point of view of the people the personnel does not matter. It does not matter whether it is Deputy Seán Lemass or anybody else if it is a good Government. We have arrived at a situation where any reasonable proposal will be examined by the Government. It is being said that it is a good Government. Even the Press says it is all for the better.

The Deputy should keep to the motion.

When Deputy O'Higgins was concluding he spent at least ten minutes expressing his opinions on the Government.

If that is so, the Deputy should not follow the example.

There are two grounds upon which I complain. One is the effect of the present Health Act on workers who are denied the blue card. There is another aspect which has not, so far as I am aware, been mentioned. It concerns those people who are alleged to have an income of £800 per year. I will deal with this matter first, having regard to the fact that it has not been mentioned in the debate.

I asked a leading member of the Health Authority what he thought of this ceiling of £800. He said that from his experience—and these people deal with these claims—some are able to pay and some are not. Why is this so? Obviously, the reason is that some people have the £800 or whatever they have above that just for the normal home meals, whereas some other person is permitted an expenditure of several hundred pounds per annum over which he has no control. Perhaps it is necessary to hold his job.

There is the difference. That was not taken into account. The Act states that if you have £800 income, you have to get private treatment, pay the maximum 18/- per day, four guineas for an X-ray and all that sort of thing. Let me give a case in point. I do not like to bring up my own affairs in the House but somehow or other one knows one's own business best. Sometimes what you hear from other people is exaggerated. Of course, one could exaggerate these complaints, too.

As a member of this House, I have £1,000 a year, less the £60 deducted for the pension fund. It so happens that I am one of those fools who let his business go. I have no income at all except this £1,000. I have not even a pension, which I should have. In fact, I have nothing.

I sent one of my children to the local hospital. He had a pain in his tummy. I went there the next morning and I was told to leave the child there for a day or two. I left him there for two days. There was nothing wrong with him; yet I got a bill for £7.1s. I do not believe that he ate 3/- worth of food. They had him X-rayed. There was no need to do so. I did not ask them to carry out the X-ray. I was charged four guineas, 18/- and £1 for examination. Of course, I have £1,000 a year but in the past four and a half years, I have fought four elections which cost me £1,200 or £1,400 which I have had to pay for out of the £1,000. I did not fight the last election on buttons. I have to pay £20 to a person for the next 12 months. I have £1,000, less the cost of four elections, all my telephone bills, letter bills and expenses for the little bit of entertaining I do which is not very much. I have £1,000 on paper. I have nine in family.

When we received our increase last year in allowance, we became subject to income tax. The boys moaned here and so a fair percentage was not taken into account for income tax on the ground that this money was intended as an allowance to enable Deputies to carry out their work as T.D.s, but in the Health Act it is not taken into account. I have only £10 per week as I have to spend the other £10 on fighting elections. I am making my own point but I will not enlarge on it. The point is that thousands of others are similarly situated.

There is the man who has to travel 30 miles each day to his job. He has proved conclusively to me that it costs him 10/- a day for petrol. He has to pay 10/- every day, and that is not taken into account. The result is that when someone is ill, he is treated as a man with £800 a year, but how can his case compare with the man who works in the city and has to pay 3d. for a bus ride? There is no comparison at all and some allowance should be made for those people who are alleged to have over £800 a year. The ceiling should be raised because the cost of living has increased generally. Apart from the ceiling being raised, certain outlays will have to be taken into consideration before his means are calculated for the purposes of the Health Act.

Let us get away from those alleged millionaires under the health system and come down to the workers. It is my experience that the worker, the labourer, gets no blue card, unless he has a large family. They come to me and complain that unless they have three or four children, they get no blue card. If one of the children is ill and has to go to hospital, they get bills for £20 or £30. That is what I am against, the lump sum practice. I have experience of people who have to pay electricity bills and the main argument amongst people like old age pensioners is: "We cannot pay the meter fee and the accumulated cost of electricity every two months. We cannot pay out £1. We do not mind 1/- or 2/-. We will not miss that but when it comes to £1, we cannot pay it. We have to buy some butter or cheese and we spend our money."

I know a woman who is on the 2/3d. weekly system and the E.S.B. are threatening to cut off her supply. They want her to go on the meter system but she will not. She says that she can pay 2/3d. but she cannot pay 16/- or £1 every two months. That is the lump sum practice and that is why to some extent I support the Fine Gael motion which suggests that small amounts like 1/6d. should be spread over a period. Even a pauper can sometimes spare 1/6d. but he cannot spare 10/- or £1.

What is the backbone of industry in this country or in any country today? It is hire purchase. Take away hire purchase and half the factories would have to close down because the poorest person, or the ordinary worker, can buy £100 worth of goods and pay 10/- a week, but he cannot put down £100. That is the small amount as against the large amount. That takes away the hardship. As I say, I accept the principle of small amounts in the motion and I disagree entirely with workers getting bills for £10, £20 or £30 which they cannot meet. I am suggesting that the Health Act has caused as much ill health as it has cured. I know the position of the working people in this city. I spend all my days meeting them. I know that 5,000 people every year get notices to quit from the Corporation because of rents which a large number of them cannot meet. I have to sift the whole business and try to get the whole story and a settlement.

On many occasions, the whole story is: "We had to pay £1 to a doctor and 15/- for the medicine and we could not pay the rent, and when it came to the second week, we could not pay the double rent and the rent collector would not take anything unless he got all the rent." That is the evidence I have. In other words, a child falls sick and the doctor is called in. His fee may be reasonable enough at 7/6. About three months ago, I had made arrangements to go on holiday but I had to call in one of the local doctors and his fee was 7/6d. He gave me a prescription for a drug which cost £2. What a difference! Yet, I am a T.D. and I am alleged to have £1,000 a year.

What about the worker who will get the same doctor's bill and the same bill for the prescription? How can an ordinary worker with a family, but without a blue card, afford to have his children treated if he has to pay 7/6d. to the doctor and 15/-, £1 or £2 for a prescription? How can he do it? He will have to let his children suffer on. That is the effect of the Health Act. I have seen children coughing their lungs out in the public street and when I asked them why they did not go to the doctor, they said: "My mother has not got the money." Children are left to develop colds and pneumonia because their parents have not got 7/6d. for the doctor and 10/- or more for the prescription which they have to pay if they have not got a blue card. That is the fault of the Health Act.

The question is: what is the remedy? Whether or not the present system is all right, except for its administration being bad, I do not know. Certainly it is all wrong for the person with £800 a year, and it is all wrong for the person whose outlay is not taken into consideration as it is for income tax. The income tax people consider certain outlays and do not take certain outlays into account. This Health Act does not make allowance for those outlays, to my knowledge.

As I say, this Fine Gael motion sounds all right. I want it examined and I want the ceiling for the blue cards raised but somehow I have a feeling that no matter how much it is raised, hardship will still be caused to the border-line cases, and there will always be border-line cases. We have differential rents and we never hear the end of the differential rents. Some system should be organised under which everyone pays something, and the State contributes. I heard the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands jibing last night at the Fine Gael Party. He was not correct. His remarks were to the effect that people who never paid before would have to pay 1/6d. and what would they have to say? He was being political. We must all remember that a great number of people who do not pay now may have to pay later, and may come under the full force of the Health Act. Possession of the blue cards is an annual affair. They are taken back annually and you have to prove your entitlement to them every year. One might be the possessor of a blue card this year and be deprived of it next year. That is being penny wise and pound foolish. A person might be against having to pay 1/6d. this year and next year he might wonder why he did not pay it.

There is a case for this proposal to spread the costs. I have made my two points. There is hardship among at least 30 per cent. of the workers in the city and the Health Act is responsible for a good deal of ill health because people cannot afford to engage a doctor and pay for the prescription, on the one hand, and there are the others who are alleged to have £800 a year but who have, in fact, certain outlays which should be taken into account. If they were, it would be found that their income was £500 or £600 a year and not £800.

I take it the Deputy is moving his amendment.

I move my amendment :

To delete "June" and substitute "November".

I think the amendment should be supported.

I did not invite the Deputy to make a second speech.

Although the Fine Gael motion has been subjected to a good deal of criticism, at least it has brought about a full-dress health debate. I think every Deputy, no matter what his sentiments are for or against the Health Act, must welcome the motion. From my own point of view, I have a perfectly clear conscience in the matter, because I felt from the beginning that the Health Act, such as it was, would not prove to be a success and would not give the services to the people which it was intended to give.

Of course, debating health now is a very different proposition from debating it in 1952, when we had a long and extensive debate before the passing of the Act. Charges have changed considerably since then and there is increased pressure on the community as a whole to maintain people in hospital, to pay doctors and, above all, to pay the cost of drugs, which has increased out of all proportion to what it was before, largely because drugs have been modernised and treatment has been modernised and everything is far more expensive than it was. That puts a different complexion on the situation.

The Minister for Health, in his contribution to this debate, produced very able arguments, as he always does. I sometimes feel that he would have made a very good senior counsel in that he is often able to state a bad case very well. He came into this House to defend the Health Act, an Act which, I think, has not been a success. The fact that we are having this debate and the fact that the Fine Gael Party, which must have some responsbility as the major opposition Party, has seen fit to undertake all this work and these actuarial calculations with regard to the Health Act and to bring in this motion, must show that the Deputies of that Party have had innumerable representations as to whether the Health Act is a success or not. There is further proof in the fact that the Government have been moved to bring in the amendment. I wonder if they would have brought in the amendment if the Fine Gael Party had not put down the motion? However, the motion has produced this debate and has brought Deputies from all sides of the House—Labour, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil—to take part in it.

The Minister for Health defended the Health Act. He seemed to think it was satisfactory, that the people were satisfied, that those whom it was intended to benefit were getting the benefits. He admitted that all things are not perfect in it but he said nothing contrived by human agency ever was perfect. That was as far as he would go. He seems to be satisfied with the Health Act.

Last night, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands, Deputy Lenihan, defended the Health Act and made statements which, of course, he cannot stand over. He said that every farmer whose valuation was under £20 had a medical card. He said there was no difficulty or trouble about medical cards. I ask Deputies on the other side of the House, in all fairness, are they not getting, as I am, continual representations and complaints about people not having medical cards. The Labour Party have admitted that freely here. At times, when we make representations, persons get medical cards and it is fully admitted that an injustice was done. At times they do not. I know many cases of hardship in my own constituency and very recently the position has been far worse than it has been before in regard to people who should have medical cards and have not got them.

I could cite many cases. I shall cite a typical case of a man who wrote to me only two or three days ago. He is earning £7 a week. He has a wife and three children. His rent is in the neighbourhood of 15/- a week. He has a daughter who is ill and he finds it quite impossible to pay the cost of the drugs necessary for her treatment. He finds himself in difficulties in regard to paying the doctor. Can anyone imagine the acute and continuous anxiety involved for that person? He is a decent type of man who wants to pay his way.

That brings me to Deputy O'Higgins's motion, which has been applauded mildly by some and condemned by most people in the House. The motion sets out to produce a domiciliary service, to produce a private practitioner service or service at general practitioner level, family doctor level, for the people, which they have not got at the moment and which is the great weakness in the existing Health Act. I am not a practising doctor at the moment, but I am a qualified doctor and I was in private practice over the years. I say that one of the provisions of the Health Act and, to my mind, the only provision, that has really been a success is the free choice of doctor in maternity cases. Anybody who knows the first thing about it knows that a woman must have her free choice as to the doctor who will attend her at that particular time, a very important time for her, an important time for her family and, furthermore, an important time for the nation.

Every woman that I have ever met wants to have the right to go to her own particular doctor. In my opinion, that is the only respect in which the 1953 Act was a real and unqualified success. It gave people an opportunity to go to whatever doctor they wanted to go to. Therefore, they went to the doctor and they went to the doctor in time and had ante-natal treatment. As a result, the position in regard to births has improved tremendously.

That is all I have to say about the Health Act. You cannot have hard and fast lines. You cannot put the State in control of medical services without creating hardships and without prying into the private affairs of people, which I do not think is right. When a doctor takes his degree he takes an oath to preserve secrecy. Today, doctors cannot preserve secrecy in full, under existing circumstances, because in certain cases they have to reveal facts that should not be revealed. If people have to go to hospital and have a certain type of treatment, the county manager has to be told so that he may decide whether it has to be paid for or not. That is wrong and that is my main objection to the health services as they exist.

The Minister for Health has ipso facto admitted that these health services are unsatisfactory, because he is going to set up a commission. One solution may be to set up a commission because then the matter can be gone into properly and many anomalies dealt with.

With regard to private practitioner service and the choice of the doctor, great play was made, when Deputy O'Higgins was speaking here, of the fact that one could not have choice of doctor in certain parts of the West of Ireland where there might be only one doctor. Let us be realistic and practical. Deputy O'Higgins, on behalf of the Fine Gael Party, introduced this motion to give, where possible, a free choice of doctor. Everybody knows that if in a remote part of the country there is only one doctor you cannot have free choice of doctor. Payment to doctors to enable them to live in such areas and to be on guard to attend to their patients will continue but there will be incentives under this scheme.

I should like the scheme which has been drawn up here to encourage doctors to give better service and the better service they give, the more patients they will get and the more incentive there will be for them to work and look after their patients, and the better service the people will get. I do not see anything wrong with that, but to have a Parliamentary Secretary or a Minister spend over an hour arguing that it was futile to have a choice of doctor, is nonsense.

I practised as a doctor and, as I have said before, I never held a public appointment but was purely a private practitioner. Many people came to me and of course I had to live the same as anybody else and I had to charge them. This system means that in a big centre where you have three or four doctors the people will have a choice. That applies to practically every town in rural Ireland, be it in Munster, Leinster or Connaught, or even in Donegal. If people want to go to a particular doctor, they are entitled to do so. It is a free country and if people prefer to go to a particular doctor, why should they not go to him? I do not think there is anything strange in that, one way or another.

I am not fully qualified to speak at first hand for the city of Dublin and I can go only on what I have been told by Dublin dispensary doctors. They are fully engaged on that work. They have no private practice. Ninety per cent. of them never see a private patient, for the simple reason that they have not the time to do so. They are overworked. Repeatedly, one hears of doctors in Dublin and in the bigger centres dying literally in the prime of life from overwork, working practically day and night. What is the objection to easing that work and allowing a free choice of doctor so that people can go to any doctor in the area? Nobody can object to that. They would get a better service and the doctors would not be overworked. The doctor would be in a position to give better service to those he has to attend. If a doctor is working morning and night, how can he give a first-class service? Doctors are only human beings like everybody else.

I think that disposes of the arguments advanced by those on the Government benches who say that the scheme is nonsense from beginning to end. The scheme is intended to give a free choice of doctor, where a choice is available. That is only right and fair. This is a free country and anybody who wants to go to a particular doctor has the right to do so.

Deputy Sherwin mentioned the ceiling of £800 a year. Just to show how fallacious these official calculations are—it is all arranged in the Custom House—if a man has over £800 a year, he is not entitled to any free treatment and he is not entitled to any benefits under the Health Act, unless he goes to the county manager.

There may be £800 coming into the house, or say, £900 to make the argument easier. There may be six or seven people in the house and £900 represents the collective earnings of the different people there. They have to be fed and clothed. They may have continuous and persistent illness which may strip them of everything they have. If you have two people in the house with a total income of £900 a year, it is a different story altogether. That is not allowed for in the Custom House. This is all dealt with at official level by officials who are only carrying out the laws made in Dail Eireann. I pointed out when we were passing the Health Act in 1953 that you cannot make hard and fast rules. This scheme is a national, voluntary health insurance and it is worked out on an actuarial basis. Nobody has attempted to deny the figures. People just got up and advanced blind arguments.

Does any Deputy believe that for the £18 million or £19 million being spent to-day, we are getting a proper health service, a health service in line with the amount of money being spent? If that were the case, would Deputies, county councillors and members of corporations be making applications from morning till night, day in day out, for people looking for treatment? Many cases come to me, and many of them would come to me as I am a doctor, and many of them are cases of grave hardship but they have been kept out by this hard and fast rule set by the Health Act.

The Minister for Health referred to health services here and in Great Britain and pointed out that we pay so much towards health services that our percentage is practically as high as that of that great industrial nation. Are the health services in Britain as satisfactory as all that? My experience has been that people there sometimes have to wait for nine months to get into hospital. We have good hospitals here with accommodation available for practically everyone it is necessary to accommodate, in all spheres of medical care, except mental defectives. That is a sphere in which we are very much behind time. There is a lot of leeway to be made up there and we require to establish more institutions. It is also necessary for us to evolve a new policy in relation to this matter because we have been working on the old system and it is not satisfactory. There is a tremendous waiting list at the moment which is causing undue hardship for mental defectives and those who require special institutional treatment and those who should get it at a certain age so that the treatment will be successful. That is one matter that needs to be attended to right away.

I have tried to show the House that in my experience as a medical man, the health services are not satisfactory. I think this is the basis of a very fine voluntary contributory scheme which would embrace all sections of the community requiring it. I do not say it is perfect but if the Government accepted this scheme and brought in a Bill, it could be debated and amended. I say that anyone who thinks that the present health services, costing £18 million, with their frustrations and restrictions, and all the prying into the lives of private individuals, are satisfactory is wrong. I said that in 1953 and I say it now with far more conviction. I see no reason in the world why the House could not accept this motion. I know that they will not do so but if they do not accept it, they can be grateful to the Fine Gael Party for having had a full discussion on the health services, which nobody can consider satisfactory.

I think we are entitled to say that this scheme is ill-considered. As a matter of fact, the last speaker, if one takes two or three points from his speech, appears to be entirely out of line with what Deputy O'Higgins said about his scheme. For instance, he criticised the £800 limit. I understood that the £800 limit was remaining in Deputy O'Higgins's scheme. It is too soon for a Deputy of the Fine Gael Party to start criticising his own scheme because if Deputy O'Higgins had given this full consideration and thought, the £800 top limit on salary for that sort of free service should have been mentioned or should have been amended. The Deputy who has just spoken also said that this is a national, voluntary health scheme. I did not think it was voluntary. I understood——

I apologise; it was a slip of the tongue.

I accept that. As far as I can see, the main complaint which Deputies generally have made in this debate against the present administration of the Health Act is that people are not getting the free medical service which they should get; in other words, that they cannot afford to pay. Deputy Sherwin and others took that line, that people who should have them are not getting the blue cards. The Act lays down that people who are unable to provide for it by their own industry or other lawful means are entitled to free medical, surgical, ophthalmic, dental and aural treatment, medicine, medical, surgical and dental appliances —all the various things a person might require—if they cannot afford to pay for them out of their own industry or other lawful means.

Who decides that? That is the whole question.

It would appear that many of the Deputies who spoke in this debate would have no complaint if that had been interpreted as they think it should be interpreted. There may be—and as far as I can gather from the debate, there are—differences in the various ways in which the Act is interpreted by the county managers. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands, when speaking here last night, gave the directive issued by the county secretary in Roscommon. In that directive, it is mentioned that farmers under £15 valuation are entitled to free treatment, and above £15, there is a scale according to the number of children, and it goes up to £20 valuation. The directive also mentions a single man with £6.5.0. per week and goes up to £9.5. per week, according to the number of children. That may be a more liberal interpretation of the Act than that taken by some county managers. That being so, there is a good case to be made for an examination of the administration of the Health Act and, as the motion says, if more than the administration is wrong, recommendations may be made for any necessary amendments.

I want to make it clear I am not against an insurance scheme. My only worry about an insurance scheme is that it will be extremely difficult to apply. The Health Act is coming under severe fire here. I do not think any Deputy could find any great fault with the Act if he read through it and saw what it laid down. Every attack made on the Act was on its administration. If we appoint a Committee to examine whether the Act is not being interpreted as it should be and recommendations are made accordingly, perhaps that can be dealt with.

Because some Deputies do not appear to be familiar with it, I should like to point out what the Health Act lays down. As I said, it lays down, first of all, that those who cannot provide for medical services out of their own industry or other lawful means are entitled to absolutely free services all round. That, of course, was the case before the Health Act was brought in. There was the same definition. The only change the Health Act made as far as the lower income group was concerned was to give them a choice of doctor and a grant in the case of maternity services. That was an added benefit for the lower income groups. That is not a legal phrase, but we know what is meant by it. For the middle income group, who had no right to any service up to that period, it was provided they should get hospital services and specialist treatment and also free maternity treatment. That would appear to be as far as the mover of the motion is going, so far as the patient is concerned. In the motion also, of course, there is free practitioner treatment.

If possible, we have to have a principle. The principle we have been following so far in the health services here is to provide for the people what they cannot afford to pay for themselves. The Health Act was based on that principle. At that time, it was believed by me, as Minister for Health, and by the Government, that we should give free treatment to the lower income group. We all agree with that. It was believed the middle income group could afford to pay for the ordinary practitioner service. As a matter of fact, it was laid down in the Act that if anyone could not afford to pay, he should get it free. As far as anybody in the middle income group is concerned, according to the Act, he should be in the lower income group if he cannot afford to pay. It was provided in the Act that everybody in this country, no matter who he might be, if he could not afford to pay for the general practitioner service, must get it free.

And who decides it?

The county manager.

And the county manager decides they must pay.

The difficulty appears to be that the county manager does not interpret the Act properly.

That is absolutely correct.

And the Minister has given the county manager authority.

The Act gave him authority, not the Minister. It is right that the Act gives the county manager power to decide, but the Act also puts the burden on the county manager to give free practitioner treatment to everybody who cannot afford to pay for it. If the county manager is not interpreting the Act properly, that matter can be investigated by this Committee. The Act lays down that general practitioner service should be given to everybody who cannot afford to pay.

Who is "totally unable"—that is one of the difficulties.

I admit the Deputy is going a bit further than that because he is going into an insurance scheme. We went further in the 1953 Act. We said it was quite possible that a man might be able to afford to pay the general practitioner, but he might not be able to meet hospital bills. I had known cases of that myself. I had known medium-sized farmers practically bankrupted by long hospital treatment for themselves or members of their families and bills by surgeons and so on. In order to meet that, it was decided that the middle income group, as defined at that time, should have free general hospital service. The income group was defined as insured people, farmers up to £50 valuation and those in receipt of salaries up to £600 a year, but that was subsequently amended to £800 a year. The only thing that could be charged against those people was a maintenance charge of 6/- per day.

If it is worked as it should be worked according to the Act, that is a fairer system than a system which says there is to be absolutely free treatment for everybody up to £800 and no free treatment for those over £800. In the Health Act, you at least have this tapering. Those coming near the £800 were paying something and it was laid down, though I think Deputy Sherwin did not appear to realise it, that the person over £800 a year could get the benefits of the Act, if the county manager thought it was a hard case. We do, therefore, deal with the person of £800 also. If we could get a better arbiter than the county manager, it could be done.

I applied to the county manager and he was not there.

The Act was brought into operation around the time of the change of Government in 1954, but the then Minister suspended its operation because he said he had not got enough hospital beds to take all the people requiring treatment under the Act. I remember pointing out to the then Minister that if people required treatment, they would go to hospital anyway and that beds would not make any difference. The Minister then got support from the Labour Party; in fact, the Labour Party did all the arguing for him, but when it came near another general election the Act was brought into operation, even though the number of hospital beds did not show any great change.

The Minister is judging other people by his own standards.

I gave an assurance to the House I would bring in the Act as early as possible. I brought it into operation in April, 1956.

There were very few beds added in the two years.

Oh, for heaven's sake!

Ask a Question and I shall give the number. It was the election of 1957 that was responsible for bringing that Act into operation.

It was in operation for 12 months at that time.

When we were getting ready for the election of 1957, it is possible that though the Labour Party had helped them very materially to suspend the Act in 1954, they induced Fine Gael to put it into operation in 1956, the year before the general election.

The Minister should consult the officials beside him.

Will the Deputy put down a Question?

The Minister should ask the questions. He is out of date.

There was very little difference in the number of beds as between 1954 and 1956.

That is not so.

However, it came into operation. The Deputy said here last night that he provided for free specialist services—I should have said free maintenance services—which, of course, is not true.

I did not say I provided free maintenance services.

I am sorry; the Deputy did not. I admit that. The maintenance service was 6/- per day but when we came back in 1957, we were presented with the situation, which I do not want to go into now, in which we had to try to cover a deficit of £11,000,000, which the Coalition left us. We had to face up to that. We had to cut the food subsidies; we had to bring in a provision under which the maintenance services would cost more. Those things would never have had to be done if we did not have to cover that deficit of £11,000,000.

On this subject, let us go back another bit. In 1947, I brought in two Acts, one of which provided for the division of the charges between the Exchequer and the local authorities who were then paying 80 per cent. and the Exchequer 20 per cent. I brought in a Bill to make it fifty-fifty as between the local authorities and the Exchequer and it has gradually come up to fifty-fifty. I also brought in an Act dealing with maintenance in cases of infectious diseases and also providing benefits for relatives, including, of course, those of tuberculosis patients. We went out in 1948. The Coalition came in and remained there for three years, doing nothing in this matter. They argued for three years about the Health Act but it was never brought in. There was only a mother and child scheme but no general hospital scheme. Even the mother and child scheme was not brought in—the Government broke up and went to the country. The Coalition came in again in 1957 and again nothing was done except to suspend the Act of 1953 for two years. At the end of two years, it was put into operation. That was the sum total of the work of the Coalition in this respect from 1954 to 1957. The Act is now in operation. It may not be all it should be——

That is the statement of the year.

——but if it is not, the best thing is to have some sort of expert committee to examine it. We have been attacked for suggesting the setting up of this Committee but I should like to point out that when this Health Act was going through, the Fine Gael Party brought in two amendments to set up a Select Committee. Surely we can at this time give the matter more effective consideration after eight years' working because now we can see what the result of the implementation of that Act has been. In 1952-53, the total expenditure on health services was £10.5 million; it is now £18.1 million —a huge increase. I have often been attacked by Fine Gael for saying that the Health Act would not cost the rates more than 2/- in the £.

The Minister was substantially right in relation to individual health services. What increased the cost was that under the present Act there is more hospitalisation than there should be. The real increase has been in hospital maintenance because you have a defective auxiliary health service and there are more people going to hospital.

Perhaps the Deputy, when replying to the debate, will explain how, in his scheme, the hospital service could be made more effective. That would be most interesting.

I certainly shall.

We must follow some principle. I have explained the principle we have been following in the Health Act. If there has to be a different interpretation or an amendment, well and good. If a Committee is set up, it can consider such a point. The Deputy is taking on a different principle. He says: "Give everything up to 85 per cent. of the cost." I do not think that is a very fair scheme because you stop abruptly at 85 per cent. with 15 per cent. left to pay by people who still have to pay their rates and taxes. Those people will also have to contribute to the general charges for the health scheme.

There is also a motion by Deputy Dr. Browne which calls for a free-for-all scheme. There is a principle in that, though I do not agree with it. Deputy T.F. O'Higgins has not got a principle. He has, if you like, tried to put flesh on the bones. That was announced before the general election. He has found it very difficult to do so. He is putting flesh around the bones to try to give them the appearance of some sort of a scheme.

I wish to refer to the blue card. There is nothing in the Health Act about the blue card. For some time before the Health Act was brought in there were complaints about it. People thought it was too pauperising an idea and when the Health Act was brought in and when the county managers were asked to decide who was entitled to free medical service, the county managers combined thought it would be a good idea to give each person some sort of ticket or card telling him or her that he or she was entitled to free service for 12 months ahead and not put them to the inconvenience of going off to the warden for a red ticket when a person became ill in the house.

Not to be reviewed as soon as they became ill, as often happened.

The Deputy made a long speech and I did not interrupt him. All these things are absolutely irrelevant. I am just talking about the Act. I never heard of a case being reviewed when a person became ill. I heard of many complaints, but not that one. The Labour Deputies are anxious to say the Health Act was a great mistake and they have acted like that for the last eight years.

That is not correct.

A choice of doctor has been referred to. It is an extremely difficult problem. I should like very much to see a choice of doctor. When I was bringing in the Health Act I was very keen on having a choice of doctor if at all possible, but there are two difficulties. The first one is a difficulty for all time; in the very sparsely populated areas it is difficult to see how you could have more than one doctor.

That is agreed.

In fact it is necessary to give them salaries to keep them. Unless the dispensary salary is continued a doctor will not stay there. Secondly, there is a temporary difficulty; there are 650 dispensary doctors who are being paid a substantial salary. I do not say it is too much but it is a substantial salary. If we give a choice of doctor—perhaps the Deputy would deal with this point—I assume the dispensary doctor would have to be guaranteed his salary. I do not know how he could get over that without guaranteeing his salary.

If the Deputy says we will give him six months' notice and out he goes, that is a solution. I do not know if it is a fair solution. We must guarantee him his salary. If I am a dispensary doctor and a person comes to me and says: "Will you take me on?", I can say: "There is a young doctor down the road. Why should I take you on? I will be paid in any case."

No. That would not arise.

That is a matter we would have to deal with. I do not know if that would be a fair system. There were a few points raised by Deputies which do not appear to be altogether true. Deputy Mullen said that three-fourths of the rate is expended in implementing the Health Act. That is a huge exaggeration. It is the sort of thing that has been said about the Health Act in different parts of the country. People down the country will say: "The rates are going up because of the Health Act." Deputy Mullen has said it. The rate is 40/9 of which the Health Act accounts for 13/9, which is one-third, not three-quarters. That is the type of thing being said all over the country by irresponsible people and people who are hostile to the Health Act.

Deputy Mullen also said it would be a good thing if there were night dispensaries. They were tried and they were not a great success but they could be tried again. When I was Minister for Health we tried them. I thought there would be many people in the city of Dublin working all day who would be glad to avail of the night dispensaries but they were hardly patronised at all.

How long ago is that?

About six or seven years ago.

But the Health Act was only coming into operation.

Some time after that.

It should be tried again.

That is right, but that was the position that time anyhow. Deputy O'Higgins said every patient without a medical card must pay 10/- per day. That is not correct.

I said every patient is charged that.

Charged 10/- per day. I have not been able to get the full figures because, unfortunately, where no charge is made there is no record kept. Therefore I do not know what percentage of people are not charged at all. However, of those charged, 50 per cent. pay 10/-, 20 per cent. pay between 5/- and 10/- and 30 per cent. pay under 5/-. These are based on returns from 16 counties so it is a fairly reliable figure.

Deputy O'Higgins also said citizens should not be asked to pay for a comprehensive service without being able to benefit from it. He has departed from that principle by leaving 15 per cent. of the people outside the scheme. Those people have to pay their rates and taxes and they will not benefit. Deputy O'Higgins covers in his scheme a general practitioner service for the lower income group and for the middle income group, also hospital services, in so far as they are contributed to by the patient, maternity and child welfare services, drugs and medicines, dental and ophthalmic services, and so on. That is all right but when we consider that institutions generally in this country will cost about £12,500,000 this year and that in a scheme like this we would have to contribute £500,000 or slightly over that out of an insurance scheme towards these institutions, it seems hardly worth while. It is too lopsided, to say the least of it.

It must be remembered also that under Section 25 people can go to the institution of their own choice. The Deputy does not say what we should do about those. First of all the Deputy should know that these people go to an institution of their own choice and get a subvention from the local authority of 8/- per day. We have no record to show what the total bill is. Under the insurance scheme, I presume, taking this choice of doctor and so on, they would get absolutely free treatment in that case. That may or may not be a costly scheme—I do not know—but it has not been referred to by the Deputy.

There is a scheme if it is feasible.

In any good insurance scheme we must try to have equal contributions for equal benefits. It is not a very sound scheme if we do not. There are very many people outside this scheme, 700,000 or 800,000. Many of those in the scheme are paying 1/- a week, 1/6 a week or 2/- a week and so on. However, I want to make it clear I am not against the insurance scheme if it is feasible.

Debate adjourned.
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