asked the Minister for Transport and Power if it is proposed to introduce amending legislation which will have the effect of curtailing the present powers of the Chairman of C.I.E.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Powers of C.I.E. Chairman.
31.
The general statutory powers of C.I.E. are vested in the Board and not in the Chairman. It is not proposed to introduce legislation to curtail the present powers of the Board.
Is the Minister aware that the spokesman for the Board is the Chairman? He is so regarded, and I am sure he is regarded as such by the Board and, in fact, obviously contemplates himself as the personification of C.I.E. Does the Minister not consider that the Chairman's refusal to meet 11 Deputies of this city to discuss the exorbitant increase in bus fares constitutes a violation of his terms of reference? He should at least have the courtesy to meet the elected representatives of the people. Does the Minister agree?
That was implied in the 1958 Act.
(Interruptions.)
Members of the Board are jointly responsible for the conduct of C.I.E. They are also responsible under the 1958 Act for seeing that C.I.E. becomes economic and there is nothing in the Act which suggests that every particular section of C.I.E. operation need bear the same profit or loss. The Board considered the matters referred to by the Deputy and decided they would make no change.
Is it not a fact that the Chairman of the Board refused to receive these Deputies who were representative of all Parties and of the citizens of Dublin, and that this was a grave discourtesy to Deputies? I think it would be fair to say that no Minister would have behaved in this way, suggesting that the deputation should be received by a subordinate rather than by the Chairman himself. It is only fair to say that no Minister in the same circumstances would have behaved in this way.
Would the Minister agree that the Public Relations Department of C.I.E. is working efficiently?
A number of Deputies are raising matters which relate to the general relationship of State boards to the Minister and to members of the Dáil. The best reply I can give to the House is to ask Deputies to read my general statement on the matter at the conclusion of the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Transport and Power in which I set out as clearly as I could the responsibility of the Minister in relation to the general supervision of State companies and also the extent to which State companies must be allowed to carry out their duties from day to day without interference. I must make it quite clear that if State companies were to submit to pressure groups of various kinds on matters decided upon by the Board it would only give rise in the long run to the uneconomic running of these companies and the making of decisions in one way which would have the result of penalising some sections of the community in order to benefit others.
Would the Minister agree to request Dr. Andrews and the Board of C.I.E. to read closely, carefully and diligently the statement made by the Taoiseach to members of this House in May, 1959, which gives rise to this question of Deputy Dunne and the questions of other Deputies regarding the discourtesy shown to this House by Dr. Andrews and the Board of C.I.E. and the dictatorial manner in which they are discharging their functions? Will the Minister further agree that it was made quite clear by the then Minister for Industry and Commerce when making a case in support of the Transport Act of 1959, that every opportunity would be afforded to representative bodies——
The Deputy is making a speech.
——to approach C.I.E. and discuss problems and grievances?
Question No. 32.
In reply to the Deputy, it so happens that whatever he may think of the Board and Chairman of C.I.E., the number of persons travelling by the substitute bus services in West Cork and using the freight services indicate that they did not in fact do anything that was dictatorial or contrary to the wishes of the majority of people of West Cork.
Is the Minister in a position to say whether or not the Chairman of C.I.E. would be prepared now to receive deputations from areas in which it has been suggested certain railway lines should be closed down?
The Chairman may possibly receive such deputations. He did in the past.
Question No. 32.
We are discussing an entirely different question from the question first raised.
A lot of matters have been brought into the question and answer.
The question of whether State Boards should yield to pressure groups to alter a pattern of cross-subsidisation as between one section of service or production and another, to alter for example a particular service in operation in connection with the Sugar Company or with other State companies, relates to the fact that the cost of commodities or services must vary from area to area. If a tradition were to be created that members would be able to bring pressure to alter general patterns of working, it could result of course in all the services being uneconomic and in the long run mean that for every person who benefited somebody must suffer. State companies must be allowed to carry on their activities from day to day. On the occasion of the Estimate I take very great trouble to answer as many questions as possible on general matters affecting State companies and it seems to me that is the time when these matters should be discussed.
I do not want to enter into an argument now about State companies but the Minister is not precluded from expressing an opinion. I simply asked him in relation to the Chairman of C.I.E. whether he could say that the present Chairman would now receive deputations from residents in places where it is suggested or proposed that certain railway lines be abandoned.
That is a matter for the Chairman of C.I.E.
Would the Minister express an opinion on it?
Question No. 32. I have called Question No. 32.
Further arising from the Minister's reply——
I have called Question No. 32. The Chair has been very lenient——
(Interruptions.)
With the Chair's permission, I want to raise this matter on the Adjournment.
The Chair will communicate with Deputy Dunne.
(Interruptions.)
The power was given only on the solemn assurance of the Taoiseach that——
I must ask the Minister to reply to Question No. 32. Would Deputy Tierney please resume his seat?
I am entitled to ask one question.
The Minister is replying.