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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 8 Mar 1962

Vol. 193 No. 8

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - National College of Art: Educational Methods.

68.

asked the Minister for Education whether he is satisfied that the methods of education in the National College of Art are completely out of date, and that the College as at present constituted cannot be the starting point for the education of people in the different crafts or indeed for the education of painters, sculptors or designers.

69.

asked the Minister for Education whether he intends to carry out an investigation into the educational methods used in the teaching of sculpture, painting and crafts in the National College of Art.

With the permission of the Ceann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 68 and 69 together.

I would refer the Deputy to my answer of 22nd February last to a previous question relating to this matter.

In the course of a very offensive reply to that Question, Sir, the Minister gave us to understand that he objected to criticism of the teaching methods used in the college. In view of the fact that this question is taken word for word from the report of Swedish experts brought over by his colleagues to investigate teaching methods in the College of Art, can the Minister seriously suggest that he is satisfied with the methods of teaching at present used in the College of Art and which have been condemned as methods of education which are completely out of date? How can the Minister stand over that?

The answer which the Deputy found offensive was not the answer to which I refer; it was last week's. I have no apology to offer for an answer which protected people whose only other protection is the courts of law, from which the Deputy made sure he protected himself when making the allegation.

Is the Minister suggesting that I should take a soap box and stand outside the College of Art and make these charges?

Make them anywhere that the people can defend themselves or, if the Deputy makes them here, I feel a duty on me to defend defenceless people. The Deputy likes to have his victims tied down all the time.

Is it not a fact that the charges made were made by a reputable international body of experts and no reply has been made by the Minister in regard to these charges? The charges were not made by me. They were made by an international body who were brought in by the Minister's colleagues.

There were no charges made against the standard of teaching by that body and it was the teachers who were attacked by the Deputy, and I know why.

This is a debate, not question and answer.

Could I ask the Minister whether he proposes to ask for the expenditure by the public of approximately £20,000 on the maintenance of a school in which the methods of education are completely out of date?

The Deputy is dealing with people whose hands are tied behind their backs while he is attacking them. There is no question of the standard of teaching being referred to in the report, if the Deputy read it properly. It was a question of reorganisation. In answer to the Question on February 22nd, I gave a full account of what was being undertaken in that field of education. There is absolutely no foundation for the allegations which the Deputy made against the teachers of the college and, as I have said, if he said them away from the privilege of this House they would be able to defend themselves. If the Deputy says them here, I feel an onus on me to defend them.

The methods of education have been criticised by this Commission.

The methods of teaching have not.

I assume the Minister has not even read the report.

The Deputy likes to hit people but hates to be hit back. The Deputy likes to have his victims tied down and, when someone hits back, he gets hurt.

There is no question of my getting hurt.

Their hands are tied and the Deputy runs up to kick them.

Does the Minister——

Will Deputy Dr. Browne resume his seat?

The Minister is hairsplitting.

This is not argument time; this is Question Time.

There is a difference between considering provision for education and attacking the personal characters of people who are unable to defend themselves.

They are not attacked.

There is no attack whatever made on the teachers.

The standard of teaching depends on the teachers and the standard of teaching is what the Deputy attacked.

Question No. 70. I will hear the reply to Question No. 70, and nothing else.

Is it not contained in this report, on page 45, that the methods of education were completely out of date?

The Deputy may not quote during Question Time. The Deputy must resume his seat.

I did that simply in order to point out the fallacious nature of the reply given by the Minister, who is hiding at the moment and afraid to face the facts.

The Deputy will resume his seat.

The Minister is merely a puppet, making the answer supplied by the people who are put in the dock by this report.

The Deputy will resume his seat.

He is answering to the strings, as always.

The Deputy could have said all that last week without bringing in his muscle man to support him now.

70.

asked the Minister for Education why he has not taken steps to improve the methods of teaching sculpture, painting and crafts in the National College of Art, in view of the fact that he has take such steps in relation to design.

As the assumption on which the question is based is not correct, then the question does not arise.

Is it not a fact that a body of reputable international experts were asked to examine the teaching methods in the College of Art and brought in a report in which they condemned these teaching methods and the Minister is now taking no step to do anything about it?

The Deputy is trying to get away with a question that was ruled out.

About teaching methods, the visitors were there during the holiday season, when no teaching was going on at all.

The Minister is now attacking these experts behind their back.

I am not, but if they had wronged somebody, I would have every right to answer.

If the Deputy insists on interrupting I will have to ask him to leave the House.

What would you suggest the Minister is doing?

The Minister is not allowed to answer the question.

No one is allowed to talk while Deputy Dr. Browne is interrupting.

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