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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 26 Jul 1962

Vol. 196 No. 19

Committee on Finance. - Vote 44—Industry and Commerce (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
"That a supplementary sum not exceeding £250,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1963, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of sundry Grants-in-Aid."

When I reported progress last night, by reason of the limited time at my disposal, I was unable to deal with a few points raised in the course of the debate and I had an opportunity of looking into one further point about which I promised to give the House more information today. That further point was in connection with the obligations of the St. Patrick's Copper Mines with reference to the original lease from which Deputy Norton apparently quoted last evening. It is correct that the lease of January, 1956, provided that if the results of certain exploratory development work was satisfactory, the company would erect a concentrator with a daily capacity of 3,000 tons at an approximate cost of £1,500,000 and would also spend £750,000 approximately and employ about 500 men on development for exploiting the mines.

It must be assumed the subsequent difficulties of the company to which I have referred, and with which the House is familiar, explain why they did not meet that undertaking fully. On the other hand, if account is taken of Canadian shares and various loans, the position is that Canadian interests under these various heads amount to £1,760,000.

Is that inclusive of the £60,000 there is a question about?

It is yes. I will give the break-up of that in a minute. There were ordinary shares of £1 each fully paid, owned by Irish Copper Mines, subject to the lien of the Minister. They amount to £1,278,997. There were ordinary shares of £1 each owned by certain Canadians, private interests, exclusive of the Canadian Mogul Company and their subsidiaries. These amount to £1,003. Then there were four loans and as I said last night, I do not think it is necessary to describe the sources of the loans which were Canadian, in fact. These amount to, respectively, £54,000, £215,000, £89,300—which was unsecured — £59,200 — which was a demand loan—and a further sum of £62,500 which applied to a particular piece of equipment. The total of these sums, including the shares, is £1,760,000.

Before I leave the financial side, there was some confusion on the part of Deputy Sweetman—perhaps I was responsible for it—about the make up of the £310,000 which was voted or spent in the current year. The Supplementary Estimate introduced in February, 1962, was for a total of £240,000. That included the sum of £170,000 for the financial year ended 31st March, 1962, and a further sum of £70,000 for the current financial year. Over and above that, I should say this latter sum of £70,000 was expended in the period up to the end of May, 1962. Since then, in order to keep the mine going while the negotiations and consultations to which I referred were being conducted, a further sum of £70,000 was paid to Avoca on the sanction of the Minister for Finance but without the specific authority of the Dáil. This latter sum is now included in the present Supplementary Estimate for £250,000. I think that clears up these financial points.

We were confusing expenditure and Votes.

That is right.

Before the Minister leaves the financial side, is it correct that these American loans have the same rank for repayment purposes as every other liability of St. Patrick's Copper Mines? Is there any special guarantee for their repayment or are they hypothecated in any special way?

No, no special rank.

They are all in the mill now?

They are. Deputy Sweetman raised another point as to why the Minister rather than the Irish Assurance Company appointed the Receiver. The answer is that the Irish Life Company relied on their guarantee and as a result of that, their mortgage was transferred to the Minister for Finance.

Already, yes.

They did not waste much time.

No. So I think that clears up——

It certainly does. Most mortgagees would be happy to be paid as quickly as that.

There were certain other difficulties to be smoothed out. I should like to deal with the question of the relationship between the Avoca Copper Mines and the nitrogenous fertiliser factory project. Deputies will remember that I set up a committee in August, 1960, to examine in all its aspects the project of setting up an economic nitrogenous fertiliser undertaking. I shall refer later to the committee in its broader aspects. The committee had recommended the use of Avoca pyrites for the manufacture of sulphate of ammonia and reported that, given the continuity of copper mining in Arklow, the supplies and quality of the Avoca pyrites as part of the mining operations would give supplies and qualities of pyrites adequate for the sulphur requirements of the proposed factory. The proposition was to base the ammonium sulphate production of the fertiliser factory on Avoca pyrites because this material had a special economic attraction as well as being one of our few natural resources.

It is important to remember that alternative sources of sulphur are readily available and that, accordingly, the difficulties at the mine did not by any means involve a decision to halt the development of the factory project. In any event, pyrites are not required at all for the manufacture of ammonium nitrate, which, as Deputy Dillon pointed out in the House a few days ago, is a much more suitable fertiliser for the grasslands of this country than any other and which will represent some 50 per cent. of the initial production of the factory, with plans to step up this proportion considerably if the requirements of the Irish farmers so warrant.

I am surprised that before essaying any public pronouncement on the Arklow project, the President and the Vice-President of the National Farmers' Association should, apparently, have neglected to consult their Association's records of the protracted correspondence and consultations which the NFA had with the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Nitrogenous Fertiliser Factory Committee, culminating in the submission of a formal memorandum presenting to the Minister and the Government the considered views of the NFA.

Dr. Juan Greene, the first President of the Association, had, in the course of a discussion in the Department, expressed his approval of the project, subject to the provision of certain safeguards which Dr. Greene considered to be essential to protect vital interests of Irish farmers. In the ensuing discussions, the nature of these safeguards took shape and they were listed as follows in the definitive memorandum prepared and submitted by the NFA on 6th December, 1960. The memorandum sets out:

(a) That the composition of the Board be such as to ensure that the factory is run in the interest of the farmers. The NFA considers it essential that the farmers themselves should be in a position to nominate their representatives on the Board. We fear the action of any private company given a monopoly of a vital raw material of our industry.

My comment on that paragraph is that the farming community is represented on the Board by a member of the NFA who was formerly the Chairman of the Industrial Committee and who was Chairman of the Cereals Committee when appointed by me as a director of Nitrigín Éireann Teoranta in October, 1961. Paragraph (b) of the NFA memorandum states:

A formal undertaking that no tariff protection will be given to the industry.

My reply to that is that there was an unequivocal announcement by the Government that the industry would operate without protection. This undertaking was confirmed on a number of occasions by statements in Dáil Éireann.

The third paragraph of the memorandum says:

Freedom of imports from other restrictions should also be guaranteed. We wish to express our fear that at some time in the future the Government may accede to a request by the company for protection at the expense of the farmer.

My view on that is in view of the fact that phosphatic and potassium fertilisers are being subsidised for Irish farmers to the tune of some £2 million a year, the fears that the policy as to nitrogenous fertilisers would be inimical to the farmers' interests were, to say the least of it, unrealistic. In any event, developments in regard to the European Economic Community have transformed this into a purely academic question.

The next paragraph in the memorandum says:

Sales by the Factory on the home market should be made to all purchasers on a published scale of prices. It should be possible for all purchasers of fertiliser in quantity to buy on known prices.

My reply to that is that clearly the factory must operate on a strictly commercial basis and in accordance with the legal requirements as to trading in force at any particular time. Subject to this, the administration and the control of sales would be a matter entirely for the board or company ultimately established by statute to administer the affairs of the industry. It may be taken that the farmers' interests will continue to be represented on the directorate of such board or company. Paragraph (e) of the memorandum says:

Both sulphate of ammonia and ammonium nitrate must be available. Restrictions on the availability of composite fertilisers should not occur.

Again the Government have announced that the main products of the factory will be sulphate of ammonia and ammonium nitrate. It is common knowledge that for many years past these have been the nitrogenous fertilisers favoured by the generality of the Irish farmers and that there is no indication of any spectacular departure from this user pattern. Over the period of ten years ended 30th June, 1962, the quantities imported of both types of fertiliser have increased steadily. However, the factory will have the necessary flexibility either to produce, or to supply the nitrogenous ingredients for, any other types of nitrogenous fertilisers, including concentrated complete fertilisers, the country may require in commercial quantities in the years to come.

The next paragraph of the memorandum states:

We favour manufacture from native rather than imported raw materials.

This is, of course, in line with the policy of successive Irish Governments. In planning the Arklow industry, the original aim was to base production totally on native materials or products—oil from Whitegate, limestone from the nearest suitable quarries, sulphur from Avoca pyrites. The difficulties at the Avoca mines, which we all trust may in time be overcome, have made it necessary to turn to the alternative sources envisaged for the supply of sulphur.

Incidentally, it should perhaps be mentioned that the possiblity of ultimately developing our own resources of phosphates will be carefully surveyed. Certain experiments for the use of this native material are proceeding. This is the manner in which the Government proposes to meet the requirements of the Irish farmers as formulated by the NFA and no amount of hindsight or flights of fancy in the realms of abstract economics and petro-chemicals on the part of the President and the Vice-President of the NFA can obscure the fact that nothing has been, or will be, left undone to safeguard the legitimate interests of the Irish agricultural community, and the public interest, in so far as nitrogenous fertilisers are concerned.

Deputies will possibly have seen an article in the Irish Times of 18th July, 1962, in which a special correspondent purports to give an authoritative summing up of the economics of the nitrogenous fertiliser factory project. In the light of the very full information about all aspects of the project, it is clear that the article can properly be characterised as being superficial and inaccurate. The possibility of establishing a nitrogenous fertiliser industry in this country has been the subject of study in my Department for years, culminating in a report to me by a Committee of nine senior officers, representing the Department of Finance, Agriculture, Transport and Power, the Electricity Supply Board, Bord na Móna, Ceimici Teoranta and my own Department.

This Committee, having assembled all the available data on the subject, and having spent a further period of 12 months in extensive research of their own, reported unanimously to me that the project, which was subsequently approved by the Government, was viable, even in the light of the lowest dumped prices of sulphate of ammonia and ammonium nitrate obtaining here at any time in the past decade. I am sure that Deputies will appreciate that I cannot now go into details about the economics of the project without gravely prejudicing the company in the steps they are taking to secure for the country the best possible contracts for the erection of the factory and for the supply of the necessary raw materials and services.

It was for that reason—the reason that the company at this moment are in the process of receiving tenders— that I did not mention the relation of Avoca Proprietaries with the factory in my opening statement on this Estimate. I did intend to deal with this matter at a later stage. However, I feel that as requested by the Deputies who spoke in the debate, I am obliged to make the comment I am now making. It will be my duty at the appropriate time to bring before the House proposals for the legislation necessary for the financing of the undertaking and Deputies will have then a full opportunity of discussing the project in all its aspects.

When is that likely to happen?

In the autumn, I hope.

May I ask the Minister if we may take it from what he says that, irrespective of the future of Avoca copper mines, the nitrogenous fertiliser factory will go ahead at Arklow?

When I was dealing with this matter in the Department of Industry and Commerce, one concern was would there be sufficient user of nitrogenous fertiliser of the type contemplated to make the proposition an economic one, but then it was known that user was increasing. Is the Minister satisfied that the user of nitrogenous fertiliser from Arklow is sufficient to enable this factory to be run as an economic proposition?

Satisfied that there will be sufficient user—satisfied beyond doubt.

And it will not need tariff or quota protection?

Yes. As I said, I do not want at this stage to go into all the economics of the undertaking because of the juxtaposition of time. Deputies will have a full opportunity of discussing the matter later. In the meantime, I feel that Deputies on all sides of the House will join with me in deprecating the serious imputations made in this article in the Irish Times against members of the Board of Nitrigín Éireann Teo. This article reads:

The final decision to go ahead with the project followed a favourable report received by the Minister for Industry and Commerce from a committee appointed in September, 1960. As some members of this committee were subsequently appointed to the board of the new company, reasonable doubts must exist as to their neutrality in assessing the project.

It is true that some members of the committee were appointed to the board that was charged with seeking tenders for the setting up of the factory. The names of the members of the board were published widely and are well known throughout the country and therefore are absolutely identifiable. This, as I have said, is a most serious imputation against their integrity and I submit it is a lamentable departure from the high standards which we have come to expect from the Press of this country. It is well known to the management of the Irish Times that these officers in their capacity as civil servants have no public voice to reply to a newspaper attack of this nature on their honesty and integrity which, so far as I am concerned, are absolutely beyond any shadow of doubt.

The work of the members of the board and of those whom they have since employed has impressed me most favourably. The extent to which they have gone to seek the best possible advice has been a test of the severest kind of their application and devotion to duty. In general, in my few years as Minister and in my experience before that, I feel that Irish public representatives and the Irish public generally can feel proud and happy about the standards of integrity and ability we have in our Civil Service. It is for these reasons that I feel constrained to mention this lamentable article at this stage.

There is one other point about this Irish Times article which was headed “Firms think project unfeasible,” and in support of this the article goes on to say, following the quotation I have just given:

At the same time the leading firms in the Irish fertiliser industry submitted confidential memoranda stating that they did not think the project economically feasible.

I want to inform the Dáil here and now that no such memorandum, confidential or otherwise, was submitted to me or to my Department or to the fertiliser factory. Indeed, already one of the leading fertiliser companies, Messrs. Gouldings, have taken the trouble to address to Nitrigín Éireann Teo., with a copy to my Department, a letter of denial in the following terms:

An article in the Irish Times dated 18th July makes the statement that “The leading firms in the Irish Fertiliser industry submitted confidential Memoranda stating that they did not think the project economically feasible.

The letter goes on to say:

It would be correct to say, should the Government wish, that the confidential Memorandum which was submitted by W. & H.M. Goulding Ltd., related to its requirements as a substantial consumer of nitrogen and did not comment as to the economics of the State-owned factory for nitrogen.

Since then, another large-scale firm manufacturing fertiliser has also disclaimed any responsibility for the statement attributed to leading fertiliser firms.

I have been called on in the public press to comment on the statements made by Mr. Deasy, president of the National Farmers' Association. It was not my intention at this juncture to do so and I have been preparing data to make a comprehensive reply to Mr. Deasy's criticism but again I feel I can take advantage of this occasion to do so. Mr. Deasy's speech was reported in the daily press of 12th of this month and I shall quote extracts from that speech and make comments on them. First, he says:

Farmers could expect no benefit from the proposed industry before 1965-66.

The plans for the factory do not envisage production before the early months of 1965. This has been stated by me in the Dáil and Mr. Deasy, therefore, was not throwing any new light on the position by this statement.

Mr. Deasy went on to say:

Farmers could expect very probably no benefit thereafter (from the industry) and for which the outlet in the context of free competition within the European Economic Community is at best very dubious.

It is accepted as an established fact by all concerned in this country, including the NFA, and, presumably, Mr. Deasy that sulphate of ammonia and ammonium nitrate have been available in recent years to Irish farmers at prices very substantially below the prices obtaining for the same commodity in Britain, the Netherlands, Belgium, West Germany, Austria, and other countries.

It is not because of the colour of our eyes that we are getting the advantage of this cheap fertiliser because before this committee was set up in 1960, it was well known that the Government had been actively pursuing the prospect of establishing a nitrogenous fertiliser factory. When consideration of the project had been on the point of completion, there was a sudden drop in the price of imported nitrogenous fertiliser in this country and I submit to the House that that drop and the consideration of the establishment of such a project in this country were not entirely unrelated.

European producers of fertiliser, however, have now been showing a growing concern about a position in which their export prices in 1961-62 were as much as £4 per ton below the prices at which they were supplying the products to the agricultural communities in their own countries. In the European Chemical News of 6th July, 1962, it was reported that the major European producers have formed an association called Nitrex. The report states:

"The main reason behind the formation of Nitrex is to avoid cut throat competition and, therefore, uneconomic prices in the large exports markets."

The report goes on to state:

"Although it will be several months before any results of the new organisation can be seen, Nitrex officials hope that one major result will be the stabilisation of the nitrogenous fertiliser market."

The clear expectation from this development, so far as Ireland is concerned, must be that the era of dumped prices of nitrogenous fertilisers here is coming to a close, Common Market or no Common Market. Even before the Nitrex development, the c.i.f. prices of sulphate of ammonia and ammonium nitrate are tending to rise. The official import figures show an increase of almost 11/- per ton of sulphate of ammonia and 9/- per ton of ammonium nitrate in the year 1961-62 as compared with 1960-61. The prices for the coming fertiliser year have not yet been announced by the continental suppliers but the indications are that the upward trend in prices will be maintained, quite independently of what may happen under the aegis of Nitrex.

The agricultural communities in, say, the Netherlands and Britain have, of course, an interest in this matter. In the event of Ireland joining the Community, it is not to be expected that the farmers in those and other Member countries will look with favour on a position in which fertiliser manufacturers in their countries would continue to make available to Irish farmers nitrogenous fertilisers at prices lower than the prices obtaining in the home country. On any reasonable view of this matter, therefore, it must be accepted that there are compelling reasons for the belief that Irish farmers will not long continue to enjoy the benefit of the prevailing favourable prices of imported nitrogenous fertilisers.

If, on accession to the EEC, we must expect harmonisation of prices of agricultural products and the means of agricultural production, including fertilisers, then we must expect to be at a disadvantage, without a nitrogenous fertiliser factory of our own, vis-á-vis our competitors in Holland and Germany, by reason of the fact that the cost of loading, sea freight and discharge of fertilisers imported from Europe is from £2 to £2 10s. per ton. This charge would represent a permanent addition to the cost of nitrogenous fertilisers, if Irish farmers were to depend indefinitely on imported supplies. It could represent an additional charge of as much as 20 per cent. on the ex-factory price.

The Government have given an assurance to the farming community here that the products of the Arklow factory will be made available to Irish farmers without protection or subsidisation in line with the prevailing import prices.

Mr. Deasy goes on to say:

It was intended to draw the principal raw material, pyrites, from the Avoca mines; the argument being that cheap pyrites would give us cheap Irish nitrogen. Recently, however, the whole future of these copper mines had been publicly questioned. If Irish pyrites should cease to be available or if they should cease to be cheap, this argument fell to the ground.

My comment on that is that as a matter of ordinary commercial prudence, the planning of the factory project provided for the use of other forms of pyrites, or sulphur in the event of any failure in the continuity of supplies of Avoca pyrites.

Are there no pyrites coming from Sligo? There used to be.

I do not think so. It is barytes. No project on the scale envisaged would be left dependent on one source of supply of an important raw material. Consequently, while it is true that the most economic source of sulphur for the factory would be Avoca pyrites, the Government are satisfied, and have been, before the present difficulties emerged at the copper mines, that the extra cost of using imported pyrites and or sulphur, would not upset the economics of the project and would not detract in any way from the assurance given to Irish farmers about the prices of sulphate of ammonia and ammonium nitrate manufactured at Arklow.

To come to Mr. Deasy again. Purporting to deal with the points that a plant in this country completely under our own control would give Irish farmers an assurance: (1) of uninterrupted supplies; and (2) that they would not be held up to ransom as to price, Mr. Deasy stated:

Not only was such a situation highly improbable, it was almost impossible. There was both a European and a world surplus of nitrogen and this surplus was constantly growing with the ever-increasing quantities of by-product and cheap fuel nitrogen which were now coming on the market.

I doubt if Mr. Deasy is fully informed. In every country in the world, additions are being made to the capacity for the production of nitrogenous fertilisers and the growth in the use of nitrogen is keeping pace with the growth in capacity. There is no argument about this. The figures of capacity and user are as readily available to Mr. Deasy as they are to the Government or anybody else.

In the first place, it is not clear what he means by the expression "by-product nitrogen". If he is referring to caprolactam by-product material, he should bear in mind that there are a number of established commercial processes for the production of caprolactam which is in itself a raw material for nylon manufacture. The processes which result in the production of varying quantities of sulphate of ammonia as a by-product depend for their economic operation on the best possible price being obtained for that material which is produced from ammonia and sulphuric acid which are used in the process. Some of the newer processes produce no sulphate of ammonia at all.

While it is true that initial outputs of such by-product sulphate of ammonia in the US resulted in cheap material being available for compounding purposes, there have been no recent reports of cheap caprolactam by-product material being on offer. In making his reference to "cheap fuel nitrogen", Mr. Deasy possibly has in mind the production of nitrogenous fertiliser based on natural gas. France is a substantial producer of nitrogen and in that country there are resources of natural gas. Nevertheless, in France, out of a planned output of 1.1 million tons, in 1965, at the end of the Fourth Plan, 935,000 tons will come from petroleum feed stock and only 165,000 tons from natural gas. Within the production totals mentioned, the 1963 production of ammonia is planned at 435,000 tons, an increase of 55,000 tons on 1960 production. Accordingly, the French, with natural gas available from their own resources, are continuing to produce their ammonia from petroleum feed stock. The Arklow factory, also, will use petroleum feed stock. The factory is being designed to use fuel oil, but it will also be able to use other hydrocarbons, such as crude oil or naphtha if the economics from time to time should favour these products.

In the design of the plant, the necessary flexibility to this end will be provided and no more is claimed for this measure of foresight than that it is normal, prudent commercial practice. Mr. Deasy has possibly been impressed by many recent Press views, informed and otherwise, about the advantages of natural gas as a feed stock for the production of ammonia. This is represented as something new, whereas, in fact, the possibilities of the use of this material have been the subject of study for years. It was closely considered by the nitrogenous fertiliser committee and was found wanting in certain vital respects when weighed in the balance with fuel oil as the appropriate and most economic feed stock in our circumstances. One obvious reason for this is that far more profitable outlets are available for this material than the output of ammonia production. The obvious outlet for this material is, of course, town gas for which purpose it commands a better price.

Next, Mr. Deasy is reported as saying:

It could be argued that the process we use might be so up-to-date as to put us in advance of our competitors, at least until they caught up with us. But this argument did not hold water either, since the process selected for our project was, he understood, open to considerable doubt on the technical score ...and it suffered from the added disadvantage of giving us only those forms of nitrogen which were rapidly being replaced in the world and, particularly, in European agriculture, by more modern forms of this fertiliser.

On that I wish to comment as follows: The process of producing ammonia from fuel oil is a well-proven one. The most modern and efficient type of plant to use this process will be installed at Arklow and in this matter we will be in line with a number of the main European producers in the Common Market area who are currently installing the same plant using the same process for the production of ammonia from fuel oil—I have instanced France—and this includes producers in countries where supplies of natural gas could be available, if it were not considered, from the general economic viewpoint more desirable to use fuel oil feed stock.

Finally, we have this comment from Mr. Deasy:

In addition, if we proceeded, we could not expect to see any nitrogen before 1965 and, perhaps, not until 1966, by which time we hoped we would be well inside the EEC within which, apart from an inescapable difference in transport costs, we would have the assurance of not having to pay any more for our nitrogen than any other member State.

I can only submit that Mr. Deasy clearly must have no proper realisation of the implications of this statement. Apparently he would be satisfied if Irish farmers would not have to pay more for nitrogen in the EEC than any other Member State. At the same time, he accepts it as inescapable that the Irish farmers must bear the difference in transport costs. This inescapable transport cost could be as much as £2 10s. per ton. Therefore, Mr. Deasy does not demur to the notion that this competitive disadvantage, vis-á-vis his Dutch competitor, should be accepted by the Irish farmers. The Government, on the other hand, consider that the Irish farmers should not be subject to any such handicap as Mr. Deasy appears to accept on their behalf with equanimity. It is for this reason principally that the Government have taken the decision to establish an Irish factory to produce within their own borders the nitrogenous fertilisers which the farmers, through the NFA and otherwise, have stipulated as their main requirements, namely, sulphate of ammonia and ammonium nitrate. Moreover, the factory will have the necessary flexibility to produce such other forms of nitrogenous fertilisers as the farmers may decide to use in the future.

Before I conclude, may I comment on the suggestion that, because of the doubts about the availability of Avoca pyrites, Arklow would not be the best place to establish a factory. As far as location is concerned, the most important thing for the factory is the distribution of the end product. It will be possible to use Arklow port or, if that proves too small for certain types of ships, a jetty at present under construction will be able to handle much larger types of ships bringing in the raw materials. At the same time, coastal tankers will be able to supply the fuel oil from Whitegate.

Arklow itself is very close to the highly agricultural parts of Leinster, reasonably close to those in Munster, and closer than any other location in the south to the west and north-west. It seems to me it has been established by the nitrogenous fertiliser company that it is, of itself, apart from the Avoca pyrites, one of the best locations in which such a factory could be established. These are the comments I would wish to make on the criticisms made. In doing so, I think I have answered fully the questions raised by Deputies.

I would like to ask the Minister two specific questions. Is he at liberty to tell the House what are the views on this project of (1) the Department of Agriculture and (2) the Economic Committee centred in the Department of Finance to advise the Government?

As the Deputy will appreciate, Government decisions are made as a result of collective responsibility and as a result of examinations made around the Cabinet table, whether the views of the Department of Agriculture are favourable or otherwise, and it would not be proper for me to state what these separate views are.

The Minister will agree with me that that is a pretty eloquent rejoinder to my question.

It is made without prejudice.

Is it intended that the Receiver appointed to administer the affairs of St. Patrick's Copper Mines will have the assistance of a qualified committee to advise him or whether it is proposed that the existing technical and managerial staff should carry on there, subject to overall control by the Receiver? In other words, is the old policy to be continued by the existing staff, or has it been decided that fresh minds should beam themselves on the problems at Arklow and see if in the new circumstances the situation there could be rectified?

I stated during the course of my remarks last night, in answer to a comment by Deputy Sweetman that a Receiver who is an accountant might not be the best type of Receiver to put in, and that a Receiver with some mining experience, with the assistance of an accountant, would perhaps be better. I suggested to the Deputy that it did not really matter whether the Official Receiver was an accountant or a mining engineer, as long as he had the type of assistance necessary available to him from some other source. I followed that up by saying the immediate intention was to appoint a group— call it that if you like, a committee, or anything else—of two, three, or four persons who will have mining experience, and I propose to seek the best possible mining experience we have in this country for the purpose. This will be a committee, or group, working with the Receiver, carrying out the immediate functions of production, until such time as we will have employed this independent expert that we spoke about yesterday. I hope that answers the Deputy.

Has the Minister sought these people yet? If he has not, is he satisfied that he can get them here?

I am reasonably satisfied I can get at least two, anyway. I should like to get another one, if I can, but saying that publicly might bring upon me an avalanche of applications.

Has the Minister assembled any of them so far?

No, but I have earmarked some of them.

What is the difference between assembling and earmarking?

I have told them separately I should like them to come along and assist the Receiver, and each of them so far has agreed.

I assume they will be paid.

I think they will have to be paid.

I agree they should be. Would it be fair to say that the method of working will be that the Receiver will perhaps be in the position of managing director and these will be the board to advise him on general policy? Is that a fair analogy?

That is fair enough, yes. I should say, in reply to Deputy Dillon, that I mentioned before he came into the House that the Committee originally set up comprised representatives of the Departments of Agriculture, Finance, Transport and Power, as well as the ESB, Ceimicí Teoranta and Bord na Móna. The report submitted to me was a unanimous one and was signed by the representatives of all of these Departments, Agriculture and Finance included.

Was it published?

No, it was not published.

The Minister will appreciate that the officers of these Departments charged to sit upon a committee ad hoc must live perennially under two hats, one as members of the Departments, and the other as the spokesmen of the Minister of the Departments to which they are attached. As members of the committee, they do not speak for the Departments from which they are seconded, if they are seconded. I wanted to know if the Minister were free to say what was the departmental view expressed on behalf of the Department. The Minister says he does not know. I say that is an eloquent reply. He says it is without prejudice.

I can assure the Deputy both these gentlemen brought their respective hats into the committee and, nevertheless, agreed to the unanimous report.

"Nevertheless" is the operative word there.

I wonder if I produced some of the data I have, would I be charged under the Official Secrets Act?

If I gave some of the information I have, I would be sent to penal servitude by the Attorney-General.

The Deputy would not. He would be acquitted by the court.

I do not know why we always try in this country to insist that we cannot do things as well as other countries.

No, no. Do not start that argument now. If has been going on since 1936.

Vote put and agreed to.
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