Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 13 Nov 1962

Vol. 197 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vóta 42—Roinn na Gaeltachta (Resumed).

Mr. Jones

When I moved to report progress on Thursday evening last, I was referring to the fact that the Gaeltacht has declined. The numbers of those within the Gaeltacht, despite the best efforts that have been made under the schemes so far in operation, show that those who speak the Irish language and remain as that type of entity, have been declining in each successive census. One is tempted to ask now whether the impact of what has been done, and is being done, economically for the Gaeltacht has not, in fact, defeated its own ends.

The building of hotels and motels in the Gaeltacht, bringing in their train an influx of tourists to the Gaeltacht, was undoubtedly a type of economic improvement everybody would wish to see the people in the Gaeltacht achieve. But, simultaneously, it has also brought a further assault on the language itself, on the traditions of the people and on their outlook in regard to the language. Remembering the type of life introduced and the kind of people who go to these areas, I wonder has the Minister considered whether this has not had the effect of making the people of the Gaeltacht feel that there is something inferior in their position, with the result that they attempt at the earliest possible opportunity to rid themselves of this kind of badge?

The Gaeltacht will now have the further impact of television. The impact of wireless has had a most disturbing effect in that traditional life in the Gaeltacht has been effected. If we add television to that, is the Minister satisfied that the moral fibre of the people with regard to the language is so good and so consistent that it will not be affected in the same way? Those who have gone to the Gaeltacht to learn Irish have seen for themselves the present trend, even though they bring back from the Gaeltacht a better knowledge of the language. I mentioned earlier that I think it is absolutely essential that the Minister and the Department of the Gaeltacht should very seriously consider this aspect of the whole situation.

It seems to me rather an anomaly at the present time that where an effort is being made by young people to speak the language, and also by people willing to devote a great deal of their time to encouraging young people outside the Gaeltacht areas to speak the language, that that effort is not being appreciated in the way it should be. I refer to the scheme of scholarships operated under the auspices of the Department of the Gaeltacht. Under that scheme the Department makes available to outside bodies, such as Coiste na bPaistí and the Gaelic Athletic Association, sums of up to £4 10s. annually to supplement their efforts in sending young people to the Gaeltacht. That is very laudable. One finds, however, that that scheme operates to move people to send children into the Gaeltacht area, children who might otherwise go to one of the colleges doing the same type of work in, I suggest, a more praiseworthy fashion because they operate under disadvantages.

One is tempted to ask why it is that these colleges cannot have the benefit of that annual £4 10s. also? Surely it was never intended that the Gaeltacht would be confined to certain areas if, by the Gaeltacht, we mean the advancement of the language as the spoken language? People quote, often very glibly indeed, the dictum of that famous Irishman who went to the Gaeltacht and who conceived the phrase "Ireland not only free but Gaelic as well." But Pearse never envisaged the Gaeltacht kept behind a stone wall or in one particular portion of the country. Surely the ambition at that stage was the spread of the language as the spoken language of the people. Surely it was envisaged that its very existence nowadays would depend upon the effort put into the movement by the people of the country as a whole.

In my constituency, there is a body, Comhar-Chumann Ide Naofa; this body has set up colleges at Foynes and Ballybunion. Children have been going to these colleges during the summer holidays. Surely schemes put into operation now, should not have the effect of lessening the number of children who might avail of the opportunity provided for them in these colleges. If Coiste na bPáistí and Cumann Luithchleas Gael and kindred organisations, are sending children to these colleges they are deserving of support. If they send them across the Shannon they can get £4 10/- extra under the schemes. Would it not be a gesture on the part of Roinn na Gaeltachta to give equal treatment to all who are endeavouring to further the cause of the language and apply this scholarship scheme with a view to extending the use of Irish as the spoken language in other parts of the country?

I inquired from the Department of Education and I found that the scheme is operated by the Department of the Gaeltacht. I seriously suggest to the Minister that he and his Department owe it to the people who are struggling to advance the language outside the Gaeltacht, to assist them in that fashion, by not discriminating or making it appear to be discriminating against people who are making every effort in the cause of the language. That would be a help, and it would certainly be a mark of appreciation which the State owes to the people who devote their spare time to organising these courses and indeed, very often, to teaching in those centres.

I said the last evening that if the number of people within the Gaeltacht proper is declining and if the number of people who speak the language is declining, a more serious effort should be made to encourage an increase rather than a decline outside the Gaeltacht areas, in the Breac-Ghaeltacht or the Galltacht.

Reference was made to Gaeltarra Éireann. The Board are now outside the ordinary procedure of being inspected in this House. Although their report is laid on the Table of the House, it required a series of Questions to the Minister to find out what exactly is the state of affairs in Gaeltarra Éireann. The Minister's statement makes it clear that in the past year they suffered a loss. That is nothing new, I am sorry to say, despite the efforts of the sub-division of the Department previously and the Board.

Would the Minister tell the House why it is, or in what fashion, Gaeltarra Éireann are losing these amounts? I know that on previous occasions it was ascertained by questioning the officials that the efforts they were making to develop the industry, the lace and other industries, were not meeting with commercial success. Perhaps the Minister would tell us whether the same difficulty exists at present and if the commercial methods being employed are not achieving results. I notice that there has been an increase —I am glad to say—in the export of tweed. I should like to hear from the Minister what is the position in regard to the toy industry and whether there has been any further expansion in that industry. Anyone who looks at the statistics can see that a lot of cheap toys are being imported. What impact have we been able to make on that market from our native resources?

Again, specifically, I should like to ask the Minister what is the position in regard to lace. On a previous occasion, we found that some of the articles being made were not required evidently. Of course, that is to be expected. In any industry which is starting off, there will be a period of trial and error. I should like to hear from the Minister if that period is over and if we might now say that the industry is on a sound basis and will become an economic proposition commercially.

I want to suggest to the Minister that all this effort at commercial improvement in the Gaeltacht and the making of the lives of the people there more economic is not the whole purpose or the sole purpose of the Department of the Gaeltacht. Its purpose really is to preserve the living culture of the people and the native language of the country. We may make the people there better off—that would be the aim of any State Department—but when we speak of the Gaeltacht, and when the Minister speaks of the Gaeltacht, we should be thinking in terms of the preservation of the spoken language of the people.

If that has not been achieved, it is time for the Minister to ask for the advice of those bodies who are working towards that aim, irrespective of where they are located to try to find for consideration by himself and for putting before the Government a scheme whereby one Gaeltacht area— and I would suggest the largest, the Connemara Gaeltacht—would be made a pilot scheme to ensure that the efforts of the Minister, his Department and his predecessors are not wasted.

Mar adúras cheana, is oth linn go bhfuil líon na ndaoine sa Ghaeltacht ag dul i laghad agus é sin in ainneoin na n-iarrachtaí atá á ndéanamh ag an Aireacht ó bunaíodh é. Béidir go bhfuil staid na ndaoine atá fágtha ann níos fearr maidir le cursaí airgid, ach ní h-é sin le rá go bhfuil staid na teangan agus an cultúr Gaelach níos fearr. Más mian linn cabhrú líon na ndaoine a labhrann an Ghaeilge, a leathnú caithfear níos mó cabhrach a thabhairt dóibh siúd atá ag obair go dian taobh amú den Ghaeltacht féin leis na daoine a spreagadh chun Ghaeilge a labhairt ionnas go raghaidh labhairt na Gaeilge chun cinn. Sin, im thuairim, ceann de na dualgaisí atá ar Aire na Gaeltachta, más áil leis toradh a theacht ar a shaothar ag smaoineamh dhó ar fhocla an Phiarsaigh: "Éire—ní hamháin saor ach Gaelach chomh maith."

Mr. Geoghegan

Ag labhairt ar an Meastachán seo, feicim go bhfuil dhá scór míle airgid leagtha amach le haghaidh boithre a dheisiú i gcaoí go mbeadh na daoine i ndán a theacht nuair is mian leo go dtí an siopa, go dtí teach an phobail agus mar sin de.

Maidir leis na dtithe, táim sásta faoi mheastachán na dtithe ach tá clamhsán á dhéanamh i láthair na huaire agus sé ábhar an chlamhsáin ná seo. Téann fear óg ón Ghaeltacht go Sasana agus pósann sé cailín óg, cailín nár tháinig ón Ghaeltacht agus nach bhfuil an Ghaeilge aici fé láthair. Nuair a thagann sé abhaile go dtí an fhíor-Ghaeltacht, tagann innealtóir amach, bfhéidir, ag breathnú ar a theach nó bfhéidir go gcuireann sé isteach ar theach nua. Cuirfear siar an éileamh ar feadh sé mhí go dtí go mbeidh an Ghaeilge ag an cailín. Níl sé sin ceart, beag nó mór. Ba cheart go dtabharfaí an deontas dóibh nuair a chuireann siad fútha sa Ghaeltacht.

Maidir leis na tithe gloine, tá a fhios ag chuile dhuine chomh maith is atá a fhios agamsa, gur tháinig stoirm an bhliain seo caite agus gur leagadh a lán de na tithe gloine. Thárla sé sin im cheantar féin agus ina lán ceantracha eile. Bfhéidir go bhfuil cúis dlí idir na daoine a chuir suas na tithe gloine agus na daoine a hordaigh iad. Ní mórán cabhrach é sin don na daoine go bhfuil na tithe gloine seo de dhith ortha. Tá súil agam go dtabharfadh an tAire cúnamh dóibh chomh tapaidh agus is féidir. Molaim go gcuirfeadh sé níos mó tithe gloine sa bhfíor-Ghaeltacht agus go scaipfeadh sé iad ar fud na Gaeltachta ionnas go gcuirfear na trátaí ar fáil sa tír seo chomh maith le tíortha eile. Tá súil agam go leanfaidh sé leis an obair sin sa bhliain atá le teacht.

Seán Ó Ceallaigh

Innstear dúinn i mbéaloideas Gael go mbíodh bolsgairí boird ag na rithe fadó d'fhonn a riartaí ar na h-aoigheadha a mholadh. Díoltaí na bolsgairí seo, ní de réir feabhas an bhídh ach de réir feabhas an mholta. Bhí, ámh, cead ag aoí mí-shásta ar bith a mbíodh sa chadhain aige do stealladh in aghaidh an bholsgaire. Do bhí idir bolsgairí agus aoigheadha mí-shásta againn sa Tigh seo Dé Déardaoin seo chaite agus ní raibh scáth ná náire ortha feidhm a bhaint as úrlabhra Gall chun a ghrádh do mhuintir na Gaeltachta a chur in iúl dúinn. Ba bhreá leo uilig daingean deiridh an náisiúin a chosaint ach ba leasg leo dea-shompla a thabhairt dóibh siúd atá taobh istigh dá múrtha tré feidhm a bhaint as úrlabhra Gael.

Thugas fé ndeara oíche Dhéardaoin seo caite nuair a bhí Inniu sa Dáil ar siúl ar Radio Éireann nár deineadh tagairt ar bith dóibh siúd a labhair i nGaeilge sa Tigh seo. Do labhair roint mhaith daoine i nGaeilge agus focal níor airíodh ó Radio Éireann in a dtaobh. Tá Radio Éireann fé Aire eile den Rialtas agus ba chóir go dtabharfadh Radio Éireann nó Roinn ar bith den Rialtas cúnamh don Ghaeilge in ionad é a cheilt. Bhí na páipéirí nuachta geall le bheith chomh dona ach níl smacht ar bith ag Aire nó ag éinne eile ortha siúd.

Anois, ba mhaith liomsa, más ceadaithe dhom é, an t-Aire a mhealladh siar go ré an chéad Dáil agus an plean a bhí ag Aire an ré úd chun an teangan a chosaint is a chaomhnadh. Cinneadh an tráth úd go gcuirfí timthirí imeasc na ndaoine chun iad do ghríosadh chun an teanga a labhairt. Cuireadh cúrsaí ar fáil do mhúinteoirí agus do dhaoine a thug gean don teanga agus tugadh duaiseanna do mhuirghineacha a bhain an chraobh leo i gcomortaisí. Lean an scéal mar seo ar feadh scaithimh agus tig le duine ar bith a chur spéis sa ghluaiseacht a rá go raibh spiorad agus borradh, ní h-amháin sa Ghaeltacht, ach sa bhreac-Ghaeltacht chomh maith. Tamall ina dhiaidh sin, cuireadh Coimisiún na Gaeltachta ar bun. Bhí na heólaithe ba mhó tábhacht sa tír ar an gCoimisiún sin. Deineadh scéal na Gaeltachta a chíoradh go mion agus cuireadh tuarascáil mhaith mhór fé cló i 1925-26. Léirítear dúinn ins na léirscáileanna a ghabhann leis an dtuairisc cad iad na limistéirí a bhí sa Ghaeltacht; an líon daoine a bhí i ngach limistéir díobh, agus an méid faoin gcéad don phobal go raibh an Ghaeilge ar a dtoil aca. Léiríodh freisin na limistéirí a bhí sa bhreac-Ghaeltacht maraon leis an méid faoin gcéad den phobal a bhí indán Gaeilge a labhairt ionta. Tá cóip den tuarascáil sin sa leabharlann anso thíos agus táim cinnte nár léigh trian de Theachtaí an Tí seo riamh í.

Rinne an Coimisiún moltaí áirithe agus glacadh le cuid acu. Tugadh deontaisí le haghaidh tithe, cróite agus rudaí nach iad do mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus tugadh screapall airgid do na leanaí go raibh an Ghaeilge mar úrlabhra aca ar theacht ar scoil dóibh. Acht in ainneóin na ndeóntaisí is na screapall, thosnaigh an Béarla ag brú thar teórainn isteach agus rug buaidh ar an nGaeilge i gcuid de na limistéirí a cláraíodh mar Ghaeltacht ag an gCoimisiún. Tá daoine ann a chuireann milleán ar mhuintir na limistéir i dtreis agam ach, dom dhóigh-sa, ní bhfuaradar cothrom na Féinne ó Rialtas ar bith dá raibh againn ó 1922 gus an lá inniu. Ní h-aoibhinn liom— is oth liom—é seo a rá, ach creidim gur gá é rá. Creidim go raibh de dhualgas ar gach Rialtas a bhí againn sa tír seo féachaint chuige ná béarfadh an Béarla oiread is órlach amháin ó Ghaeltacht, beag nó mór. In ionad an dualgas sin a chóimhlíonadh, deineadh sceanairt, blúire ar bhlúire, ar na limistéirí beaga go dtí gur cuireadh i ndísc iad agus ansan dúbharthas ná raibh na haicmí a lonnaig ionnta seasmhach ná dílis don Ghaeilge. Cuireadh Acht i bhfeidhm sa Tig seo do chum leasa na gceanntar neamhfhorbartha. Shíleamar go gcuirfí tionnscail de shaghas éigin, beag nó mór, ar bun agus go gcoimeádfaí na Gaeilgeoirí óg ag baile, nó ar a laghad, cómhgarach don bhaile. Ní call dom a rá cad do thárla. B'fhéidir go raibh deacrachtaí do-sháraithe ann ach ba chóir go dtuigfí go rabhadar ann sul a ritheadh an Bille tríd an Oireachtas.

Tá an Ghaeltacht ag dul i laghad in aghaidh an lae agus ní thiocfaidh feabhas ar an scéal go dtí go mbeidh slí bheatha ag pobal na Gaeltachta. Ní h-aon tairbhe dhúinn bheith ag cuimhneamh go bhfanfaidh na daoine óga ann ar an mbeagán a bhí acu go dtí seo. Creidim gur gean leis an Aire an Ghaeilge agus lucht a labhartha. Más gean, baineadh sé an bréid de fhéin agus téadh sé i gcomhairle le gach eagraíocht atá ag obtair ar son na teangan féachaint a bhféadfaí an cneadh a leigheas. Ní h-aon tairbhe na ceitiní beaga atá sa Mheastachán. Ní h-aon tairbhe cleas an philibín a imirt a thuille. Déantar gníomh maith mór sul a gcreimfear an t-anam as an nGaeltacht. Deintear go luath é nó eirítear as. Obair atá de dhíth ar an nGaeltacht. Obair mhaith sheasmhach agus má níonn an t-Aire fiú amháin tús a chur leis, beifear buíoch dó.

Aire Tailte (Mr. Moran)

Tá mé buíoch des na Teachtaí a labhair ar an Meastachán seo. Is maith liom i gcónaí tuairimí agus moltaí a fháil ó na daoine a bhfuil spéis acu sa Ghaeltacht agus sa Ghaeilge. Níl éinne lántsásta leis an dul ar aghaidh atá á dhéanamh ach támuid go léir ar aon aigne go gcaithfear leanúint leis na h-iarrachtaí agus go gcaithfear gach dícheall a dhéanamh cun feabhas a chur ar shlí beatha mhuintir na Gaeltachta.

Labhair an Teachta Ó Dómhnaill ar roinnt ceisteanna spéisiúla agus ba mhaith liom a thuille eolais a thúirt dó. Is maith liom go bhfuil suim aige san obair atá ar siúl chun páistí a chur ag foghluim Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht.

Admhaím go mba mhaith an rud é dá bhféadfaí páistí ó ó'n Ghalltacht a bheith sa Ghaeltacht ar feadh na bliana uilig ach tá tosach déanta ar scéim den tsaghas sin cheana. Na páistí a théann go dtí na bun-scoileanna sa Ghaeltacht, caitheann siad trí mhí as a chéile sa Ghaeltacht agus téann páistí ann gach téarma scoile. Mar sin féin. bíonn roint páistí ó'n Ghalltacht sa Ghaeltacht ar feadh na bliana agus tá súil agam go mbainfidh páistí na Galltachta a thuille feidhme as an scéim seo ins na blianta atá ag teacht.

Ní féidir liom ghlacadh leis an méid a dúirt an Teachta Ó Dómhnaill faoi Ghaeltarra Éireann. Ní féidir Gaeltarra Éireann a chur i gcomparáid le cólucht gnótha. Ní chun airgead a dhéanamh a bunaíodh Gaeltarra Éireann ach chun obair a sholáthar agus seirbhís soisialach a chur ar fáil ar mhaithe le muintir na Gaeltachta agus na gceanntracha cumhang. Is léir domsa go bhfuil iarracht mhaith á dhéanamh ag Bord Gaeltarra Éireann. Tá feabhas ag teacht ar thionscail bréidín agus níl éinne anois nach bhfuil sásta go bhfuil dul ar aghaidh déanta, go mór mhór i measc na bhfíodóirí i gCondae Dún na nGall. Tuigim ó'n Bhord go bhfuil súil aca go mbeidh feabhas maith le fáil de bharr na gléasanna nua atá acu agus go dtiocfaidh forbairt mhór ar an tionscal uilig.

Tá athrú ar an scéal go raibh fíodóirí ag gearán faoi trí mhí ó shoin. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil an chúis ghearáin céanna acu anois. Ar chuma ar bith, is féidir liom a rá gur tháinig forbairt mhór ar an tionscal agus tá súil agam go mbeidh an fhorbairt sin ag teacht ó bliain go bliain.

Rinne an Teachta Ó Dómhnaill, freisin, an-chaint faoi ghnó Gaeltarra Éireann. Is ait an rud é agus is ionadh liom é nach gcloistear ach gearáin ó dhaoine áirithe i gCondae Dún na nGall faoi Gaeltarra Éireann. An tionscal bréidín, ar ndóigh, a bhíonn i gceist i gcónaí aca. Níor chuala mé ó na daoine sin gur chuir Gaeltarra Éireann suas le £90,000 agus gur chuireadar obair ar fáil do bhreis is 100 fíodóirí agus suas le 140 oibrithe nach fíodóirí iad san muileann atá acu sa chontae sin i gCill Charra. Im thuairim féin, tá an brabús is mó bhí ag Ghaeltarra Éireann ag dul go dtí Condae Dún na nGall faoi fíodóireacht agus an obair eile atá ar siúl san chontae sin. Mar dúirt mé cheana, is ait an rud é, mar sin, go mbíonn gearáin mar seo ó Teachtaí as Dún na nGall.

Fuair mé amach go bhfuil suas le 500 daoine fostaithe tríd an chontae sin faoi Ghaeltarra Éireann, faoi na gnóthaí éagsúla atá ar siúl ag an mBord ins an chontae sin. Tá mé cinnte go mbeadh muintir na Gaeltachta i gContae Mhuigheo nó na Gaillimhe an-shásta ar fad, cuir i gcás, go raibh an méid fostaíochta sin ar siúl ins na Gaeltachta éagsúla.

Tá sé ina ghearán faoi Gaeltarra Éireann go dtéann siad i gcoimhlint le daoine príomháideacha atá ag obair ins an gnó céanna. Sé mo thuairim féin, gurab é sin an chúis go mbíonn clamhsán mar sin ag teacht anseo ó am go h-am. Bíonn an rud sin ann i gcónaí nuair a bhíonn daoine gnótha i gcoimhlint le n-a chéile. Ó'n scéala atá agamsa, tá an t-airgead atá ag dul do na daoine atá fostaithe ag Gaeltarra Éireann mar fhíodóirí i gContae Dún na nGall i bhfad níos aoirde ná an méid atá ag dul do na daoine ins na gnóthaí éagsúla eile ins an gcontae sin. Sin é an scéala a fuair mise. Mar adúras, is ait an rud é go mbíonn gearáin mar sin ag teacht anuas anseo ó am go h-am tar éis an méid fostaíochta agus an méid oibre atá ag dul ar aghaidh ins an chontae sin.

Maidir le Gaeltarra Éireann i gcoitianta, tríd is tríd, tá mé sásta leis an dul chun cinn atá á dhéanamh ag an mBord. Tá ceithre tionscail éagsúla le na chéile acu agus d'réir na bhfigiúirí atá le feiceáil ins an Tuarascáil Bhliantúil a leagadh ós cóir an Oireachtais le goirid, tháinig feabhas nacht beag ar ghnó an Bhoird i rith na bliana airgeadais seo caithe. D'fhéadfadh an scéal a bheith níos fearr, ar ndóigh, ach má thagann an lá nuair nach mbeidh aon chlamhsáin le cloisteáil beidh a ndóithin déanta ag an mBórd.

Go h-áirithe, caithimid cuimhniú ar an bhfirinne gur gnó é seo a bhíonn ag brath ar chúrsaí fáisiúin. Is olc an rud é go mbíonn tréimhsí gan lán-obair a bheith i lámhaibh fíodóirí. Is oth leis an mBord go dtarluíonn sin uair ar bith. Ach tig liom a rá gur ag dul i bhfeabhas atá an scéal agus go bhfuil gach dóchas ann i láthair na h-uaire gur fíor-annamh a bhéas na fíodóirí gan a ndóithin oibre as so amach. Le firinne, bhí obair le fáil ag gach fíodóir le sé seachtain anuas. Is maith an rud é go bhfuil an scéal céadna ann i láthair na h-uaire.

Bhí ceisteanna éagsúla eile ag Teachtaí as Gaeltacht an Iarthair, Muigheo agus Gaillimh, agus Dún na nGall, chó maith, faoi'n scéim tithe gloine agus is oth liom go raibh an mhoill sin ar an scéim as ucht an damáiste stoirme a rinneadh do na tithe sin. Is trua go raibh a leithéid de mhoill ar shocrú an scéil. B'éigin d'oifigí Oifig na nOibreacha Poiblí a bhí mar fheidhmeanaigh ar son mo Roinne, an damáiste d'aimsiú agus d'iniúchadh agus na deacrachtaí a d'éirigh idir an Oifig agus na connradhthóirí a réiteach maidir le conus ba cheart an obair a dhéanamh agus an méid oibre a bhí ann. Bhí ceist na hatógála féin le réiteach agus táim díreach tar éis meastachán d'fháil ó Oifig na nOibreacha Poiblí ar cad a cosnóidh sé chun tógáil as an nua. Bhí orainn socrú cad is fearr a dhéanamh. De ghnáth, nuair a bhíonn trioblóid mar seo idir conrathóir agus Roinn nó éinne eile, bíonn deacrachtaí dlí ann agus bhí deacrachtaí móra sa chás seo. Ach anois, buíochas le Dia, creidim go bhfuil an cheist beagnach socruithe agus tá súil agam to dtosnófar leis an obair seo i gceann tamaillín bhig. Is trua nach raibh leigheas eile ar an scéal, ach, mar is eol do chách, bíonn moill mhór idir dlíodóirí i gcásanna mar seo.

I should like to refer briefly to some of the points made on this Estimate and try to remove some obvious misunderstandings in connection with the work of Roinn na Gaeltachta that emerged in the debate. The question of policy as regards roads done under Roinn na Gaeltachta was raised by Deputy O'Donnell and others and I should like to explain something I thought was well known, that is, that my Department do not carry out these works themselves. We rely on the SESO office to carry out these road works for us where that Office has an organisation in the counties in which the Gaeltacht areas are situated. In County Donegal, however, SESO has no local organisation and the work carried out by that office, as agent for me, is actually done by the county engineer. It is incorrect to state that there is any such occurrence as the county engineer waiting in Donegal or elsewhere for a budget from my Department or an indication of what is to be done. In actual practice, my Department get from our stiúrthóirí in the different Gaeltacht areas or from Deputies or other representatives, reports about roads in the Gaeltacht. As a matter of practice, we get the SESO officers to go into these with officials of my Department and they give us an estimate as to the cost to my Department.

In the case of Donegal, we get the county engineer—or, to be strictly accurate, the SESO Office get the county engineer—to carry out the work for them. It does not matter if it comes to 31st March before any such job is done because this is a continuous scheme. No matter when the county engineer in Donegal gets an indication to do a certain job, he can do it whether the work runs beyond the financial year or not. The money is not taken back by my Department. The money is available for him to complete the work as soon as possible. Deputies will appreciate that these schemes are designed, outside their utility value, to give employment during the winter months and therefore it is generally towards the end of the year when they are being carried out. As I have said, it is not correct to assume that if they are not completed by the end of the financial year the money is finished with and comes back to the Department. That is not so.

As regards road policy generally in the Gaeltacht areas, I should like to point out to Deputy O'Donnell that we have deliberately laid down a policy of doing those roads for which county councils are not responsible. We have many of these to complete yet. These are what are generally regarded in the area as accommodation roads and I am satisfied that very good work is being done in completing these roads. They are of the utmost benefit to the people concerned. Let me say, in passing, that many county councils in areas where Gaeltachta are situated have been very slow in giving cothrom na Féinne to the people of the Gaeltacht area in doing steamrolling work and other work. The Gaeltacht areas are isolated areas with very little political significance. When it comes to planning programmes, I find that local authorities are in many cases very much inclined to forget about the Gaeltacht when they are making up their programme and their budgets for roads in their counties.

Indeed, I found that as a result of my road scheme in Gaeltacht areas, some local authorities were inclined to say they were well enough off because of this particular road scheme and were not making the provision they should make for them in the normal course of events. I hope Deputies on all sides of the House who are members of county councils in areas where there are Gaeltachta will co-operate with me in ensuring, irrespective of any schemes I may be able to provide for the people in these small isolated areas, that their county councils will also do their full share in providing amenities and road services for them.

It may be that at some future time Deputies might convince me that policy should be changed in this matter as to the type of roads we are making in the Gaeltacht areas but we should give the present policy a trial because it is essential to do these accommodation roads which were left undone for so many years. Deputy Geoghegan and others suggested that perhaps we should devote some of this money to main roads going into centres of population and so on. I still feel that for the maximum benefit of the people of the Gaeltacht areas we should continue for at least another while confining ourselves to putting these accommodation roads in order. Where we do put these accommodation roads in order, I again want to say that we leave them in such a way, that if the local authority is willing to take them over, they can be taken over when we finish with them. When we are doing them, we try to leave them within the regulations whereby they will be acceptable to local authorities for taking over for future maintenance. I hope local authorities will do so wherever feasible in order to ensure that these roads will be kept in proper condition, once they are constructed under the grants made available by my Department.

Deputy O'Donnell asked whether any help was given under Scéim na Muc in County Donegal. I am glad to be able to tell him that, although Donegal traditionally is not a pigproducing area, 55 sows have been allocated to applicants in the Donegal Gaeltacht and in fact there were 24 allocated this year to the Gaeltachta up there. Therefore Donegal, whether Deputy O'Donnell knows it or not, is getting its fair share under Scéim na Muc and indeed, depending on the interest of the people in the scheme and the demand from the area, we will provide more sows.

I want to compliment Deputy O'Donnell on his conversion to the glasshouses. He said he never believed in them, but he has now changed his mind. The fact is that these glasshouses have been making a considerable contribution to the economy of the Gaeltacht areas in which they are located. The Deputy talked about providing heat for glasshouses being erected. I should like to assure him that is being done. Since the establishment of my Department, heating installations have been provided in every new glasshouse erected. Since I came into the Department a few years ago, a scheme has been going ahead to provide heating installations in the old glasshouses throughout the country and quite an amount has been done to bring that scheme to a successful conclusion.

The figures for the Donegal Gaeltacht are that heating is being installed in 25 houses at the moment, the total number of applications received at present. In addition, heating installations have already been completed in 34 houses in the county. As Deputies will appreciate, the applicants themselves must be satisfied to have these installations made. My Department cannot go in and instal heating, unless these people want it. The position in Donegal is that every individual who has a glasshouse and who wanted to have heating installed is now either in the position of having it or else it is in the course of being provided for him. I hope I can relieve the Deputy's mind on that score.

A beginning has been made in respect of the scheme to send children to the Gaeltacht for 12 months. They are now sent for the whole school term of three months to a national school in the Gaeltacht. My Department pay a grant of £19 per child towards this scheme. Already 700 or 800 children have taken advantage of it. It is a very successful scheme and is, I understand, having a very good effect in providing the children with the desirable liomhacht and getting them interested in the language. If Gael Linn succeed in increasing the number of children participating in the scheme, my Department would be happy to co-operate in the matter of grants. This scheme, together with the Coisde na bPáistí scheme, has made great strides in recent times and we hope that that trend will continue. There is no question of cutting down on the financial provision being made for schemes of this kind. Indeed, we shall be happy if the demand increases year by year, because it indicates the interest parents and organisations have in sending children to the Gaeltacht.

The complaints made in connection with the tweed industry are particularly surprising, coming from County Donegal. It is amazing that, remembering how many people are gainfully engaged in the tweed industry in Donegal under Gaeltarra Eireann, we should have these complaints from Deputies. Last year, £90,000 was spent in Donegal alone on the tweed industry. The number of people engaged in activities under Gaeltarra Éireann in that county is something over 500. I am quite sure that other Gaeltachta would be very happy if they had the same story as Donegal to tell. The tweed industry is, of course, subject to the vagaries of fashion. Like every other clothing industry, it has its ups and downs. Gaeltarra Éireann have very nearly half—46.5 per cent. —of the total turnover of the tweed industry in the whole country. Surely that is an indication that they are operating on the right lines in their present expansion?

It is unrealistic to suggest that one can judge Gaeltarra Eireann in the same way as one can judge private industry. Those who talk about ordering industry into the Gaeltacht should be realistic in their approach to this matter. The Gaeltacht areas are the most isolated in the country. The location of industry depends on the promoters of the industry. The Gaeltacht areas are isolated areas in which costs of transport are high. There are other difficulties. Some of the Gaeltacht areas are situated on islands. I should be delighted to see more industrial activity in the Gaeltacht. I should be quite prepared to give whatever help I could to those willing to promote industry in these areas. But one cannot overlook the realities. One cannot take an industrialist by the scruff of the neck and tell him that he must go to this, or that, area.

There are grave difficulties in locating industry in the Gaeltacht. That is quite clear to those who know anything about industry or business. At all events, there is this to be said about Gaeltarra Éireann: while the board have been making losses, their financial position has, in fact, been improving. They are interested in other products than tweed: they are interested in the manufacture of toys, knitwear, lacemaking and so on. Some of these are carried on in these isolated Gaeltacht areas in a very small way. A business man would naturally be solely concerned with the materialistic side, inspired by the profit motive. He would not have his activities scattered about in these isolated areas. The very fact that Gaeltarra Eireann are making the progress they are making, considering where they have to operate and the way in which they must operate, is a matter for satisfaction.

A new toy factory has gone up in the Connemara Gaeltacht. It is already in production and it should be going ahead pretty well in a very short time. Judging by the reports I have got from the board, there are good prospects for its success. I hope we will see a good deal of improvement under that heading of the board's activities.

Mr. Donegan

May I ask a question? I understood the Minister, when speaking in Irish, to say that Gaeltarra Éireann was not set up to make money but rather as a social service in order to give work in various areas. That is not what the Minister said in English. Would the Minister reconcile the two statements?

Mr. Moran

The Deputy was very concerned about Gaeltarra Éireann and the making of money when he was speaking here last week. It was obvious to me that the Deputy had no knowledge whatever of the Gaeltacht areas, or even of their location.

Mr. Donegan

That is what the Minister says.

Mr. Moran

I said in Irish—I repeat it now—that the first reason for setting up Gaeltarra Éireann was social and mainly for the purpose of providing employment in the Gaeltacht areas. That being so, it is to be expected, because of their different operations in very isolated areas, that there should be a loss. One could not expect an organisation established for social purposes to make a profit out of diversified activities in very isolated areas.

It is true that there has been an improvement in the accounts of Gaeltarra Éireann over the past year. I hope that improvement will continue, but it is absurd to suggest that this body could make a profit in the same way as some industrial magnate who might build a huge factory, take in the best workers he could get, locating the industry as near a port as possible to save costs of transport. He could not do that in these isolated Gaeltacht areas. The fact that increased employment is being given and the fact that there are no unemployed weavers— some may be underemployed, but there are none unemployed—is something about which the House, and particularly the people from the Donegal Gaeltacht, should be well satisfied. Those who say that no improvement has been made since Roinn na Gaeltachta was established do not appear to be following the activities of the Department. There are stiúrthóirí going around the different Gaeltacht areas for the purpose of helping the people and bringing their needs to the attention of the Department, week by week and month by month.

A large number of special schemes have been introduced to improve the economic health of the Gaeltacht. As Deputies will recollect, special housing legislation was introduced under which the people of the Gaeltacht got special housing facilities and new schemes were provided to enable them to erect chalets and brugha in the Gaeltacht areas, and to develop whatever local amenities they may have to attract tourism to their areas. There are schemes like Scéim na bPaistí, Scéim na Muc, Scéim na dTrátaí and several others which were specially brought in and financed to enable those people in the poor circumstances in which most of them have to live to get a livelihood there or at least to make it possible for them to help themselves in a better way than was formerly the position.

I cannot speculate here on the effects of more and more people going into the Gaeltacht areas on holidays and whether, between that, television and wireless, the language might or might not suffer. My own view is that where it is the spoken language of the home, it is quite safe, no matter what new medium comes along. To prove that, I should like to point out to the House that the Connemara people who were migrated to the Meath Gaeltacht some years ago still have their own language as teanga na teachta. It is a fact that although they have been there for a great number of years, it is the language spoken in their homes.

At all events, in the Gaeltacht areas, as in the other congested areas throughout this land, it is true to say, as someone has suggested here, that you cannot put a wall round about them and regard them as people living in a type of Indian reservation. The people of the Gaeltacht are just as entitled as anyone else in this land to the benefits of any of the other national schemes, whether they are migration schemes which give them new holdings or other schemes not administered by Roinn na Gaeltachta.

One of the facts about life in the Gaeltacht is that these were the very areas to which people were driven in the dark and evil days of our history, and many of them had to try to eke out an existence on some of the very worst land or bog in the whole of the country. To suggest that these people, any more than people outside limistéirí na Gaeltachta, should accept the standard of living of their great-grandfathers or their grandfathers would certainly be unrealistic, to say the least of it.

It is true that the policy of my Department is to endeavour to make the best use we possibly can of any natural advantage that may exist in the area and to help these people by making special provision for them to cater for the tourist trade, where they live at a seaside or where there is fishing available and so on, so that, in so far as we can, we endeavour to increase their economic lot and the economic possibilities of their future.

One of the rather peculiar and interesting things about one of the most isolated Gaeltacht areas is that notwithstanding what has been said here about large numbers of people disappearing from the Gaeltacht, they have been increasing particularly in the west and particularly in the Aran Islands. I had the pleasure and privilege recently of visiting my island friends there and I found that they had to extend their schools because of the increased number of children now on those islands. That is heartening to see. People talk here about there being emigration from the Gaeltacht areas. Of course that is true but it is equally true of the other congested areas, and it must be true in the congested areas where there is possibly only one son waiting on the holding or one daughter getting married locally, but where they have large families, they must move out to other parts of the country or elsewhere.

From the figures I have studied, I am satisfied that there is no greater emigration from the Gaeltacht areas than from the surrounding congested areas which have been the traditional locations of emigration in our land —and they have been the traditional locations of emigration because of our history and because of the economic facts I have already pointed out to the House.

Some Deputies mentioned the question of foraoiseacht na Gaeltachta. I should like to inform the House that I have a special officer in the Forestry Division of the Department of Lands to act as liaison officer for Roinn na Gaeltachta so that if there is any suitable scheme for afforestation located in the Gaeltacht areas, that scheme will get full and prior consideration. In fact I got a report from the officer concerned dealing with forestry in Roinn na Gaeltachta and he is satisfied that in so far as it is feasible, the Forestry Division have gone ahead in a reasonably good way throughout the different Gaeltacht areas, depending, of course, as forestry must always depend, on the availability of suitable land. In many instances, because of location, because of exposure and because of the soil conditions, much of the land in the Gaeltacht areas is not suitable for forestry purposes; but I want to tell the House that where there is suitable land available—and when I say "suitable land," I mean land that is capable of being planted —the Gaeltacht areas will get priority and first consideration from the Forestry Division of the Department of Lands.

Is maith an rud i gcoitinne go bhfuil suim fé leith san ábhar so ag an líon Teachta a labhair ar an Meastachán. An bhliain seo caite, sílim nach raibh morán spéise ann ag an gcuid is mó de na Teachtaí ach tá athrú ar an scéal an babhta so. Táim i gcomhnai toilteanach aon chabhair is féidir liom a thabhairt do dhaoine a bhfuil suim aca sa Ghaeilge agus go mór mhór do na Teachtai Dála atá in a gcomhnaí sa Ghaeltacht nó in a gcomhnaí i gcontaethe a bhfuil Gaeltacht beag nó mór ann. Freisin, táim toilteanach i gcomhnaí aon chabhair is féidir liom a thabhairt d'eagraíocht ar bith, eagraíocht neaspleach leasmuigh den Roinn a bhfuil suim aca sa Ghaeltacht i dtaobh oideachais nó tionscail nó gní ar bith eile a dhéanfadh cothú agus forbairt do shlí bheatha muintir na Gaeltachta. Dá bhrí sin, bhéinn fíor-bhuíoch d'aoinne a bhfuil in ndán aon tógra a thabhairt dom ar mhaithe leis na daoine sin.

Vote put and agreed to.