Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Mar 1963

Vol. 200 No. 9

Committee on Finance - Vote 30—Office of the Minister for Education.

Minister for Education (Dr. Hillery)

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £7,000 be granted to befray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1963, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education and for Expenses connected with the Council of Education.

The Supplementary Estimate is required to enable a sum of £5,400, first instalment of a refund of expenses in connection with an OECD Pilot Survey, to be appropriated in aid of the Vote and to provide a balance of £7,000 towards the excess expenditure under subheads B & C. The excess under subhead B is due to arrears of increases in salary for members of the Inspectorate, as part of the 8th round increase for the period 1 November, 1961, to 31st March, 1962, which were paid in the financial year 1962/3. The revised scales of salary were agreed upon at a meeting of the Departmental Conciliation Council in July 1962.

Successful competitions for the filling of vacancies in the primary and secondary school inspectorate were held towards the end of 1961 and in 1962 and in the circumstances the provision for travelling and subsistence made under subhead C for the financial year 1962-3 was not fully adequate to meet the expenses for travelling and subsistence charged to the subhead. These expenses include some travelling and subsistence charges in connection with a pilot education study being conducted in conjunction with OECD and charges arising from the preparation of a special course in Irish based on linguistic research methods.

As already announced, the pilot study in conjunction with OECD has been under way since October last. The aim is to prepare an educational development programme for Ireland up to 1970 and 1975, based on detailed studies of the trend of economic and social factors at national and international levels. The experience gained from the pilot experiment will be passed on to other member countries of OECD and the organisation has agreed to refund about 50 per cent of the cost of the project, subject to a maximum of £10,600 approximately. The first instalment of this refund— £5,400—has been received and credited to Subhead G—Appropriations-in-Aid. The study is to be completed not later than on 30th September, 1964.

By a special arrangement with the authorities of his Order, the services of Dr. Colmán Ó hUallacháin, OFM, are being made available to the Department of Education for the purpose of the preparation of a course in Irish based on the most modern thought and practice in linguistic research methods. It is anticipated that the work in connection with the preparation of the course will be completed in about two years from 1st January last and provision by way of a grant-in-aid of £4,000 is proposed for it in a special subhead in the Estimates for the financial year 1963-4. In the meantime expenditure in connection with the scheme is being met from the subhead Travelling and Incidental Expenses of this Vote.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I note the Minister says that during the year an examination was held for the promotion of primary school inspectors and I take it a number of new appointments have been made as a result. I should be very interested to know what the methods of appointing these inspectors is and what was the cost of the examination. I always understood that a teacher was appointed to the position of inspector on his record as a teacher and was not aware of the fact that examinations were held for these appointments. I should like to know now what the examination is and what the curriculum is for it.

Again I note that additional moneys are required for research into linguistic methods. We would be very interested to have further details of these methods of research. The Minister made no suggestion about the provision of expenses for the commission which have been set up to study methods for the revival of the Irish language. Are that commission functioning at all or have they become dormant? Perhaps it would be a very good thing if, like the Select Committee on the Health Services, they provided us with a report. Who are they?

Mr. McQuillan

You will see them in the restaurant often enough. The tables are full with them every day when you go in to try to have a meal.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

We should like to know what they are doing.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

They are eating anyway, seemingly.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

It would be no harm if we could learn something of what they do, of what their research is.

Mr. McQuillan

Research to wait.

Dr. Hillery

They do not come under my Department; it is the Taoiseach's Department.

Mr. Dillon

Is the Minister setting up another commission to study the same ground?

Dr. Hillery

No. This is a man who has studied new techniques and who is trying to adapt them to our needs.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

He is not bothering about Irish?

Mr. Faulkner

Yes.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Surely that should dovetail with the commission who are sitting. Surely if the Minister is employing this reverend gentleman, there should be some liaison between him and the commission who are studying the revival of the Irish language. The Taoiseach cannot be responsible for the commission and the Minister responsible for this gentleman and hope to achieve the best results. It does not seem to be much use, and yet we are spending money on them. I should like to know what progress this commission have made with regard to methods of reviving the Irish language, because if we do not get a move on there, we may be too late. It would be no harm if they got a move on.

I notice a considerable amount is required for increases in salaries. I take it that refers to primary school inspectors. Have additional inspectors been appointed? It would be a good thing on Votes of this kind if we could get details of how the money will be expended. Then we would be in a better position to discuss them.

Mr. Dillon

I would join with the Deputy is saying it is a most desirable thing, if we are to have fresh knowledge about methods of teaching Irish, that we would have access to them. Surely we are getting into a grotesque situation if, having set up a commission who have been sitting for some years now to inquire into the question as to the best methods of teaching Irish and promoting the language in our educational system, the Minister for Education is to set up another body to consider methods of teaching Irish without establishing any liaison with the existing commission who, as I have said, have been sitting for years and from whom we have heard nothing. Surely if this gentleman has something of value to impart to us, the first body he should get in touch with is the commission who have been charged by the Taoiseach with a very special responsibility—to survey the whole field of the Irish language revival. The Minister, when concluding, should give us greater details as to what this gentleman has to offer and in how far he is to co-operate with the existing commission in order that they may incorporate whatever information he may have to give them in the report which we hope some day will be made available to the patient public who have been long waiting for some result. Can anyone remember when this commission were set up under the Taoiseach's Department?

Dr. Hillery

About 1957, I think.

Mr. Dillon

It is so long ago that none of us remembers.

Seán Ó Ceallaigh

Nár cheart don Teachta an cheist sin a chur ar an Seanadóir Micheál Ó hAodha atá ina Chathaoirleach ar an Choimisiúin sin?

Mr. P. O'Donnell

We do not get the opportunity of putting the question to him in this House. We hear him often enough but we never get an opportunity of asking him.

Mr. Dillon

This commission was set up six years ago.

Dr. Hillery

It was before I became Minister, but I am not sure whether it was 1959, 1958 or 1957.

Mr. Dillon

It was set up in ancient times beyond which the memory of the Minister does not run. I quite sympathise because I myself had forgotten it. It is now an institution and it is passing into history——

Mr. McQuillan

The members must be entitled to a pension.

Mr. Dillon

It is certainly passing into history. It was set up so long ago that no one here can readily say how long it has been functioning. We have heard nothing from it. Now we are told that a considerable volume of modern teaching innovations has apparently been discovered and developed since the original commission was set up. Would it not be a galvanising experience for that commission if this new young Lochinvar who has made the discovery since the commission was established were put in touch with it? It might discover that things are moving in the world even if they are not in the ivory tower of the commission.

I think the Minister will agree that superficially, at any rate, an anachronism seems to exist. I think he has a certain duty to inform us why this commission of the Taoiseach's has not reported, or why he has not decided to inject this learned man into their deliberations, if they propose to continue indefinitely deliberating.

Mr. Colley

I hope the Minister will not feel that I am taking away some of his ammunition, but I cannot resist rising at this stage to say that I am appalled at the apparent ignorance of the Leader of the Opposition and Deputy O'Donnell of something with which I thought everyone who was interested in the Irish language was familiar. The activities of An tAthair Ó hUallacháin are very well known and have received a considerable amount of publicity. For the benefit of the Opposition, may I say briefly that he is a priest who has devoted a large number of years to the study of languages. He has attended courses in America and France where he has studied the latest developments in the teaching of languages. Most people I think are aware of the fact that there have been revolutionary developments in the study of the manner in which people learn anything, but particularly of the manner in which they learn languages. Those studies have revealed some very pertinent facts in regard to the methods of teaching languages.

I should have thought that the Opposition would have got up today to congratulate the Minister on his broad vision in seeing to it that these most modern researches are put to the use which we require here, the revival of the Irish language and the teaching of the Irish language. These methods are being availed of by other countries and, for a change, we see some effort being made to utilise the modern tools available for teaching the language instead of going back to the methods of the past century. I think the Minister's action is most praiseworthy and I should have expected to have heard congratulation instead of something which amounted very closely to derision.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

We are not trying to deride the gentleman. All we are asking is for some information about what he is doing.

Mr. Dillon

And what the commission is doing.

Mr. Colley

I was coming to the commission. As I understand the position, the commission is concerned with the whole question of the Irish language and not merely with the teaching of the language.

Mr. Dillon

The revival of the language.

Mr. Colley

It is not concerned merely with the question of teaching the language at schools—

Mr. Dillon

Surely that is an integral part?

Mr. Colley

I would not say it would cover 50 per cent of the field which the commission will consider. I expect that when the commission's report comes—and I hope it will come before long—it will have something to say about the methods used in schools, but it could not be expected to deal with the technical points involved in the research undertaken by An tAthair Ó hUallacháin.

I understand that his methods consist to some extent of recording the language used by young children in the various parts of the Gaeltacht, of recording the words they use, and the number of times they are used, and basing the teaching methods on the discoveries made of the manner in which children who have the language from birth speak the language and the manner in which they build up a vocabulary.

In regard to the commission, I should like to make the point that references have been made from time to time to delays in the appearance of its report. It seems to me that the implications behind those remarks are that the Government are either responsible for the delays or are deliberately causing the report to be held up. Anyone who can read between the lines, and anyone who looks at the questions put to the Taoiseach from time to time about this report and the replies given by him, will realise that the Taoiseach wishes more than anyone else that the report were available. It seems to me to be a little unfair to imply that the Government are responsible for the delay.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

No one suggested that.

Mr. Colley

I think that is the implication.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

All we are asking is that the commission should be prodded to get on with its work.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Shades of the Milk Costings Commission.

Mr. Dillon

It is the very same story.

Mr. Colley

From some secret inquiries I have made, I think the report of the commission cannot be long delayed. Let me make it clear that I have no official information——

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Only secret information.

Mr. Colley

I also am awaiting the commission's report anxiously and I made some private inquiries of my own——

Mr. Dillon

Within the terms of the Official Secrets Act, we hope.

Mr. Colley

Within its terms. I understand it will not be long delayed. I want to make the two points that the commission is, to a certain extent, far removed from the research undertaken by An tAthair Ó hUallacháin and that the Government are at least as anxious as the Opposition that the commission's report should be available without delay.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

That is what we want to know. The Minister did not tell us anything about it.

Dr. Hillery

An tAthair Ó hUallacháin is not a commission. He is a single person and a linguistics expert. From his studies, he is in the position of being able to do research into the techniques of teaching languages. He will deal mainly with the Irish language, but he will deal with, and already has dealt with, modern continental languages.

Mr. Dillon

An tAthair Ó Dálaigh was doing that for me in Ballingeary 40 years ago.

Dr. Hillery

Perhaps with the most modern methods of the time. If Deputy Dillon regards three or four years ago as history, what does he think his school days are?

Mr. Dillon

If this gentlemen is as good as An tAthair Ó Dálaigh, he is quite remarkable.

Dr. Hillery

The technique is a rapid learning technique and there are mechanical and other techniques. These are matters of details which could not by the longest stretch of the imagination be considered matters for the commission to report on. I imagine that the commission would recommend in its report the appointment of such a man who had actually studied the techniques and details, a man who was a linguistics expert. As I said when introducing this vote, the money for the work of An tAthair Ó hUallacháin will come under the main Estimate.

As I said, he will do a certain amount of work on Continental languages, but he will deal mainly with the Irish languages. I hope that from his work we will have much more rapid learning of the spoken language with much less time having to be spent on it.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

On the lines of the policy laid down by Fine Gael.

Dr. Hillery

This is not policy; this is technique.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

It is the technique laid down by Fine Gael.

Dr. Hillery

There was another matter which puzzled Deputy O'Donnell. There were 12 primary and seven secondary inspectors appointed. There was a competition for the appointments which was held by the Civil Service Commission. I do not know what the expenses of the Civil Service Commission are but the competition was held by them and the appointments were made on the recommendation of that Commission.

Mr. Dillon

I would like to raise a point here. I listened with attention to the contribution of Deputy Colley for whose discretion I have the most profound respect. Quite recently I mentioned to the Minister a work on the linguistic development of my youth to which considerable importance was attached. I recognise the potential there is for the development of the language but surely it is not reasonable to say that An tAthair Ó hUallacháin has something of value to contribute to the teaching of Irish and just leave it at that. Surely, the knowledge he has ought to be given to the commission which should be allowed to avail of that knowledge? Some liaison ought to be established between him and the commission so that some regard may be had to his system of linguistics, which the Minister has stated, prima facie, to be of value. That system ought to be carefully examined and exploited as far as it can be. It is not reasonable that the report of the commission should be issued until it has considered what contribution An tAthair Ó hUallacháin might be able to make that would be helpful to the work.

Dr. Hillery

The most the commission could do in the matter would be to recommend that such an arrangement be made. I am responsible for the teaching methods in the schools, no matter what the commission may report, and I was fully justified in making the appointment. I understand that the commission's report is being typed.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Colley was astonished that I had not heard of An tAthair Ó hUallacháin but I am sure there are experts of my youth of whom Deputy Colley has not heard. It would be an astonishing matter if the commission produced a report and made no reference whatever to the new methods which An tAthair Ó hUallacháin recommends to the Minister for Education. It would be an anachronism if the commission produced its report after seven years' deliberations and the Minister disgarded half the material in it because it did not have regard to the new system of linguistic teaching which he has now accepted from An tAthair Ó hUallacháin.

Dr. Hillery

The Deputy is criticising the report before he has seen it.

Mr. Dillon

If you say to me that the commission have had an opportunity of hearing An tAthair Ó hUallacháin, that is all I want.

Dr. Hillery

I imagine that the commission will have had an opportunity of knowing of the existence of the most modern scientific techniques. The selection of one particular man to bring these techniques into the schools would be a matter for me. I am satisfield that the commission have heard of these techniques. The reason why you probably have not heard of An tAthair Ó hUallacháin is that he has been abroad and that most of his work has been done in America.

Mr. Dillon

I have not heard of him and I consider myself fairly conversant with modern lingustic developments. The Minister will be aware that members of my family are actively engaged in these matters.

Vote put and agreed to.