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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Mar 1963

Vol. 200 No. 9

Committee on Finance - Vote 33—Technical Instruction.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £102,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1963, for Payments under the Vocational Education Acts, 1930 to 1953 (No. 29 of 1930; No. 50 of 1936; No. 9 of 1944; No. 1 of 1947; No. 33 of 1950; and No. 37 of 1953), and for other purposes connected with Technical Instruction and Continuation Education.

The need for this Supplementary Estimate of £102,000 arises mainly from the introduction of improved salary scales for full-time officers of the vocational education service as from 1st November, 1961, as part of the eighth round increase. The extra payment to vocational education committees in respect of the period 1st November, 1961 to 31st March 1963 in connection with such increased salaries is about £99,000. A further £3,000 is necessary to meet an anticipated deficit due to casual variation in the original provision in the subhead.

We have no objection to this Estimate, which also is for an increase in salaries. However, there is one point I should like to mention. It is the employment, or rather the non-employment, of married vocational teachers. A very high percentage of vocational teachers are engaged in teaching domestic economy. I do not think we have a single male domestic economy teacher. These young ladies are qualified and trained at considerable expense to the State. They are then sent down the country to teach domestic economy. Just when they have gained a little experience, they marry and are completely lost to the profession. They are no longer employed. That is very wrong.

I have in mind a particular lady—an excellent teacher—who taught for years in County Dublin. Then she married and took up residence in my county of Donegal. She could no longer get regular employment with any vocational education authority in the State. But four miles from her residence she is now fully employed by the Six County Government as a vocational teacher. They are delighted to have her.

We tried this out some years ago when we would not employ married primary teachers even in a temporary capacity, but we found that was not a success. We are now re-employing primary teachers. Why can we not do that in the vocational schools, particularly when a high proportion of these teachers are females engaged on domestic economy—a subject in which experience is much more valuable than all the knowledge acquired in a domestic economy training school.

I would appeal to the Minister not to throw these married women out, but re-employ them just as he has rightly done in the case of the primary teachers. It would be to the advantage of the students, the profession and the country generally. We would bear in mind that vocational education is one branch of education in which we have been lagging behind. We had not the schools, but we are getting on with that now. We are now lagging behind because we have not got the teachers. The number of students we can take into the training colleges is limited. If we are to progress with the building programme, we must also progress with the teaching programme. We should re-employ these people, be it in commercial classes or domestic economy classes. I appeal to the Minister seriously to consider that point. If he does he will have the blessings of the vocational education committees and of the parents of pupils throughout the country.

I would ask the Minister to consider a problem with which many vocational education committees are confronted, that is, trying to get competent teachers, having regard to the salaries offered, it has been the experience of the Dublin Vocational Education Committee that they have had to forget about the best man because of the salary scale existing. When we are thinking of vocational education, we must have regard to getting the best man obtainable. Recently in Dublin there was a problem in relation to chef instructors. There were a number of applicants but they were dissuaded from going any further with their application because of the salary offered. We cannot induce the best man away from private employment if he is to be offered less than the salary obtainable under private enterprise. It often happens that we have to make do with people who cannot be described as the best available.

I would ask the Minister to reconsider this position which not only applies to chef instructors but to other instructors. Even if you take the final scale, it is not sufficient to attract people. Take the case of a woodwork instructor. The salary scale offered is less than that for the foreman standard which you require. These are matters which should be gone into carefully, particularly now that we are stressing the importance of technical education.

The salaries of these posts are fixed by independent arbitration but the extent to which a problem is created is not very clear, nor how extensive it is, that we are not getting good people. I think we are getting very good people into these posts and I should not like anybody to think that our vocational teachers are not up to standard.

I have not said that.

I know that the Deputy has not said that but it could perhaps be taken from what has been said that we are not getting good people. We are fortunate in getting good people. If it is a problem, it will have to be dealt with in time but those salaries at present are fixed by the independent arbitration board. The question of the domestic economy instructresses——

And late married vocational teachers generally.

They can be employed as part-time when they are married.

Temporarily.

As temporary teachers, but the local authority marriage ban does affect them. Then we have the problems of vocational teachers and their recruitment is being studied by the officials of my Department. It may be necessary to take some steps to improve the recruitment, but I cannot go any further and say what will be recommended to me. I do not know whether there is any necessity to take steps in relation to the marriage ban.

I am grateful to the Minister for his favourable consideration.

I should not like it to go out that I was decrying the usefulness of the existing vocational education teachers but I should like the Minister to bear in mind the particular type we have in mind, the chef instructors, which is a new idea. We know from experience that the rate of pay given to head chefs, or to give them their French name, chefs de cuisine, is far in excess of what we offer under the existing scale.

Vote put and agreed to.
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