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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 Mar 1963

Vol. 200 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 20—Stationery Office.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £41,800 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1963, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Stationery Office; for Printing and Binding, and the provision of Stationery, Paper, Books, Office Machinery and other Office Supplies for the Public Services; and for Sundry Miscellaneous purposes; including the publication and sale of Reports of Oireachtas Debates, Bills, Acts and other Government Publications.

In this case the expenditure has been substantially higher than was expected at the beginning of the year. It must be remembered that the gross Vote was £732,000 and that something over £40,000, taken as a percentage of that, is not abnormally high. There are two or three matters I could mention which were unforeseen. The Committee on Industrial Organisation turned out to be very much more expensive than was anticipated. The Joint Committee on Electoral Law was the second matter that incurred unforeseen expenditure and thirdly, a very large publication dealing with customs and excise tariffs was put on sale during the year. Apart from those, there were small items here and there and there was, for instance, a much bigger run than usual on maps.

I did not quite catch whether or not the Minister referred to any additional expenditure on health?

The Minister's information does not seem to be in accordance with the facts.

The three I mentioned were the Industrial Organisation Committee, the Electoral Law Committee and the customs and excise publication.

The Electoral Law Reform Committee was in existence and the report was available when these Estimates were framed and, in fact, there is nothing whatever that should not have been estimated under the Electoral Law Report. There is, however, a perfectly good answer in respect of committees to which the Minister has not adverted. Most voluminous submissions were provided for the Health Committee of the House now sitting and required an enormous amount of printing that could not possibly have been foreseen when the Estimates were being prepared. I think the Minister must have got his committees slightly mixed at some stage in their progress to the brief.

However, I want to repeat observations I made on the Supplementary Estimate about six weeks ago in relation to certain printings which are now improved but which still require further improvement. Verbatim minutes of Committees of the House should be available to members of the various Committees more speedily. There has been a very considerable improvement—let me put it on record—since I raised this matter here in relation to the Health Committee a month or six weeks ago but there is still room for further improvement. The delay, perhaps, may arise because of the manner in which contracts are placed by the Stationery Office and because there is no provision in those contracts to ensure that verbatim reports of Committees of the House get appropriate priority. It is a matter of inserting the appropriate clause in the contract and making the necessary financial arrangements.

As I said in relation to the Houses of the Oireachtas Estimate, business of this type must be done in such a way that members of the House can do properly the job for which they were sent here by their constituents. The situation also about which we had a discussion earlier in regard to the printing and binding of volumes of debates of the Houses themselves is a matter that requires continuous pressure. I think when we discussed this on the token Estimate, the Minister for Finance suggested that my strictures should have been directed not at him but at you, Sir. Whether that be so or not, I shall leave it between the two of you. My only anxiety is to ensure that in general the volumes are available at an early date, particularly because of the index that is included in them. It is not much trouble for any of us to deal with the unrevised reports themselves but it makes the business of the House much more difficult if the index is not available at an early date and necessarily that index is available only in the bound volumes.

Therefore, I suggest to you, Sir, that you, as Ceann Comhairle and head of the administrative section in the House should direct your attention to that matter and also direct the attention of the Minister for Finance to the necessity for expeditious printing of these things in the hope that the shuffling—I do not use the word in any obnoxious sense—of responsibility between the Ceann Comhairle and the Minister may be ended in such a way that we will get what we want at a proper, early date.

On that point, I should like to ask the Minister when are we going to have the general index of the proceedings of this House? The last one published was in 1954 and it includes the period between 1948 and 1954. This is 1963 and I feel it is overdue to have the subsequent index available. It is essential to any Deputy if he is to keep in touch with past statements made in the House and so on.

I do not know who is responsible for the distribution of the various publications provided for under this Vote and possibly I should have raised this on the first Estimate we discussed here this morning, Houses of the Oireachtas, but I have a strong complaint to repeat, that is, that many of these important publications are not in the hands of Deputies until 12, 24 and sometimes 36 or 48 hours after their contents have been made known to the public by Press, radio and television. I do not object to these things being publicised through those media but there should be an effort, whether by the Ceann Comhairle or the Minister for Finance, to ensure that, as far as possible, important publications will be in the hands of Deputies simultaneously with the general publication of such documents. I can give two recent examples: the White Paper Closing the Gap was made generally public through the Press, radio and television on Saturday morning. Some of our Deputies did not receive this publication until Monday afternoon.

There was a great gap in transmission, therefore.

There certainly was. Similarly, the details of the Book of Estimates were published on a certain date——

Saturday morning.

On Saturday morning, through the Press, radio and television but that Book was not in the hands of some Deputies until Monday. I appreciate the difficulties there are in respect of Deputies who may live 250 or 300 miles from Dublin but I do not think sufficient effort is made to ensure that these important publications will be in the hands of Deputies at least simultaneously with their publication generally.

We are entitled to complain when we have reached a situation where members of the public, who get up early in the morning and happen to listen to the 8 o'clock news programme from Radio Éireann, are able to tell Deputies what is in certain of these publications and the new proposals on legislation. Deputies themselves do not know anything about the details until they get their post 12 hours later—24 hours or 36 hours later, in some cases. I say that with reserve. I do not know whether it is the fault of the Minister for Finance in this particular section, the Stationery Office or some other State Department. Again, there should be some effort to ensure that Deputies and Senators will have these important Government publications at the very earliest opportunity.

I should like to make it clear that the Ceann Comhairle is not responsible for some of the complaints made here. The only thing I can say is that the Ceann Comhairle is responsible for the indexing, but when the volume is indexed, the Stationery Office are responsible for printing, circulation and so on. I have to take responsibility for the printing and for the time taken in printing—to get it out as quickly as possible.

As regards the point made by Deputy Corish, which is an important point, it is a matter I shall inquire into again to see if something better can be done in that direction. I am sure Deputies are aware—those who have been in Government are certainly aware—that there is the anxiety that if the publications are not received by the Press in time, we cannot expect an intelligent comment. I may be wrong, but so far as I know, it is posted to the Deputies before the Press get it. That may not be in time, I admit, to reach many Deputies in the morning post. The only thing I can do is to find out if putting it in the post a few hours earlier would make a difference.

An ordinary-sized letter is delivered in one day. When more than ordinary-sized, it takes two days.

It is possible that however early it is posted, it will not reach certain parts of the country in time.

We were very concerned recently when the White Paper Closing the Gap did not arrive in Dungarvan until Monday.

That might be the fault of the post.

It did not arrive with me until Monday and I am only 30 miles away.

I shall examine that.

What is the position about the general index of the Dáil Debates?

As I explained here, the Ceann Comhairle had some trouble in bringing it up to date. It is fairly up to date now. Two or three of the Bound Volumes will be issued this year, which will bring it practically up to date.

We have more than two or three volumes in a year.

The two or three outstanding.

Two or three catching up. That is still not the general index.

Vote put and agreed to.
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