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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 1 May 1963

Vol. 202 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 14—General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.
—(Minister for Finance.)

I was amazed at the irresponsible statements by some members on the Opposition benches and by some of the criticism of this Budget. There was nothing constructive about it. It is interesting to look back over the years and to consider the achievements of these people who indulged in irresponsible and destructive criticism of this Budget. They tried to bring prosperity to the country by selling our transatlantic aircraft; they cut down on productive employment; and, generally speaking, they destroyed the economic life of the nation. How could we expect anything from these people but destructive criticism?

Fianna Fáil are concerned with the national wellbeing. In his opening words on the Budget, the Minister for Finance said:

The purpose of the Budget is not merely to regulate the nation's finances but also to promote national progress.

"National progress" are the key words of the Fianna Fáil Party—both politically and economically. The Minister continued:

To judge what this year's Budget should do, it is not necessary to review the main features and trends of the past year.

The Minister took over this country in 1957 when the Coalition Government left office for the second time and left this country in a very bad way. A large number of people were in need of employment and the economic life of the country was in very bad condition. My fear is that some of the present criticism of this Budget by the Opposition will be swallowed by people outside who are not conversant with the facts.

It is essential that the people should think seriously about our national progress. It would be very easy for this Party to do the popular thing, as the Coalition did. It would be very easy for us to run away from our responsibilities as the Coalition completely ran away from their responsibilities in 1951 and again in 1957. However, propaganda is a very strange thing. It depends on how often you can tell a story and how well you can tell it. A Deputy told me last evening that this new turnover tax would increase the family budget even to the extent of an increase in the price of pepper. A tin of it would do a family for 12 months. Surely that was rather a farfetched statement on his part?

It is about the only thing that will not increase.

I shall deal with the Deputy in a few minutes. I am delighted he is there.

If the Deputy reads today's papers he will get a little more to say.

In 1957 the Minister for Finance had the dirtiest job to do that any Minister could have in order to bring the country back to a satisfactory state economically. I am concerned about progress. I am concerned about leaving the purchasing power with the people. We in Fianna Fáil are concerned about national development. The Minister, with the backing of his own Party, put the country back on the upgrade.

Take the years from 1948. The people were told that Fianna Fáil were robbing the country and that they should put Fianna Fáil out of office. As soon as they left office the Taoiseach, then Deputy Lemass, said from the opposite side of the House: "We have given you over the country in a sound financial position. Give it back to us the same way." Of course, they did not. They were not able to face up to their responsibility. They finished up by selling everything, aeroplanes——

They did not raid the till.

Backed by the Deputy's Party, they sold the aeroplanes. Anything that was going ahead under Fianna Fáil was destroyed by the Coalition Government. They criticised our tourist industry. Fianna Fáil tried to encourage visitors from abroad to come here and we were told we were feeding strangers when we were not able to feed our own. They were not concerned about our adverse trade balance and wanted to bring home our external assets. This was the type of humbug we had to put up with here. They nearly destroyed the nation and we nearly lost our political freedom as well as our economic freedom so that we had almost to go on our knees to some foreign country to assist us.

This sort of propaganda and misrepresentation has been carried out in other good nations throughout Europe and against very good Governments in Europe which are now controlled by communists. In this Budget the Minister is doing nothing more than facing up to the responsibilities that he and his Party have to the people of this country and to posterity. Because there is a 2½ per cent turnover tax the Minister is criticised notwithstanding the fact that as the result of the policy of Fianna Fáil prosperity in business even during the last year is greater by 7 per cent than it had been the year before.

It would have been easy enough for the Minister to say: "We shall cut down on A, B or C. We shall build no more schools. We shall provide no more grants for factories." There was a statement made last night that we should not borrow for any development. Admittedly, one cannot expect very much except that type of talk from a member of a Party that did not last very long in this House or in the life of the nation. However, this nation is going ahead and it is to be hoped that what happened in 1948 will not happen again, that the people of Ireland will not fall for the same type of propaganda as they fell for in 1948 and in 1954. I appeal to the people of Ireland to go back over those years and to think how much the Coalition Government retarded the progress of this ancient nation. We want to see the people better off and see the Minister's policy being implemented in order to achieve that. We are concerned for every section of the community irrespective of class or creed. That has been our policy.

I know there are still some Deputies on the other side of the House and some of my colleagues here who wish to speak so I merely want to revert to the taxes. I am delighted to see Deputy Donegan here this afternoon because Deputy Donegan has been asking the Minister for Agriculture to increase the price of milk. He said he would like to see the farmers getting 6d a gallon if the nation could afford it but when it was increased by a penny a gallon under this Budget, Deputy Donegan went into the lobby and voted against giving the farmers of Ireland an extra penny a gallon. He has been asking many questions in the House and he took it up with the Minister for Agriculture on a few occasions and tried to embarrass the Minister by saying the farmers were badly treated. When he had an opportunity of doing something for the farmers along with his colleagues in the Fine Gael Party, he voted against the increase of a penny per gallon.

Is this for the Drogheda Independent? I do not mind.

The Deputy's name is here; he has voted against it.

We shall get that in the Drogheda Independent next week.

I shall not bother about it any more. I have made my point. Believe it or not, a few days after the Budget Deputy Donegan had another question down inquiring was the Minister giving a further increase. Can you beat that for politics? When he did get an opportunity of voting for an increase for the farmers he voted against the proposal. That is not too bad but the Labour Party beats all. I am delighted to see here the Chairman of the Labour Party. There is provision for an increase of 2/6d for the old age pensioners and Deputy Tully, the Chairman of the Labour Party, voted against that.

The people of County Dublin might believe that but I do not think very many here will. The Deputy should not be bluffing.

I am not bluffing. This is the written word.

If the Deputy is so ignorant that he cannot understand it he cannot blame me.

There was also Deputy Norton. I am surprised at such a distinguished parliamentarian doing a thing like that.

We shall meet you afterwards and explain it to you.

They voted against an increase in children's allowances. There is a number of big families down in Meath who would welcome this increase in children's allowances. There is an additional 10/- a month for the first child and Deputy Tully does not want his constituents to get the extra allowance. Is that not the position? I am sorry Deputy Tierney is not here. Deputy Tierney had a motion here in regard to the means test and in regard to increasing pensions generally. I voted against it because there was no money there at the time. Deputy Tierney went into the lobby and voted against Old IRA men getting increases in their pensions and their special allowances. The Minister had to wait until the Budget to know whether there would be money for these increases but we knew that if the Minister could do anything, he would do it. Now the Labour Party come along and vote against these increases about which Deputy Tierney and his Party talked so much. That is the type of hypocrisy we are up against.

Deputy Ryan put down a motion asking for increased allowances for retired Gardaí and he challenged a vote in the House. There was no money for such an increase at the time but now, when the Minister has decided to give an increase to the retired Gardaí, and I very much welcome it, Deputy Ryan and all the members of the Fine Gael Party voted against what they proposed a month ago. I do not know where we stand at all when we are up against that class of hypocrisy. I have great sympathy with certain Deputies. I know they have to do what they are told to do by the Party but what are we to think when we see them putting motions down when there is no money to meet the cost involved in these motions and then voting against their own proposals when the money is there to meet them.

From time to time in every democratic nation, certain economic circumstances will arise which will necessitate the Taoiseach or the Minister for Finance of that nation making an honest statement to the people so as to inform them of the position of the country financially. If the Taoiseach or the Minister for Finance failed to tell the people of this country how they stand financially, they would be completely failing in their duty. I am referring now to the White Paper. In introducing that White Paper, the Taoiseach did his duty in telling the people the financial position. That was all he did. At the moment a conference is in progress between the trade unions and the representatives of the employers seeking agreement on the formula which will be for the benefit of all sections of the community.

That was sabotaged by the Taoiseach on the last occasion. I hope it will not be sabotaged by him again.

The Taoiseach is the best friend the workers of Ireland ever had and he did more to raise the workers of Ireland out of the gutter than any other Parliamentarian in his time.

Do not be codding yourself. Did you ever hear of Jim Larkin?

I am talking about one man. The dead, God rest their souls, all did their part for Ireland in their day but I am talking about the present Taoiseach. If there ever was a man who was concerned for the welfare of the workers of Ireland and of our people, that man is Seán Lemass when he was Minister for Industry and Commerce. He did his part for the workers then and he is doing it for them today as Taoiseach. The workers under Fianna Fáil achieved more prosperity than ever they did under an inter-Party Government.

They also got a wages standstill order twice.

I am as deeply concerned about the workers of Ireland as Deputy Tully is. I am concerned about their wellbeing. There are people in this Parliament who are anxious to cash in on the present bus strike. They are passing resolutions about the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Transport and Power, seeking to capitalise on every critical position that arises between employers and employees. The people who do that are acting against the wellbeing of this country. If there are temporary disputes, these can be solved only by the people concerned coming together, by better understanding and goodwill, and it is a shame to have these resolutions being passed by disinterested persons. In disputes like these, the people concerned will get together and resolve their own difficulties.

I am sorry, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, that I have a heavy cold and that I am not able to speak much longer but I wish to pay my tribute to the Minister for Finance. He is a great patriot who has the interest of Ireland at heart first, last and all the time. He is a man who will put the interests of Ireland before the interests of either his Party or himself. For that reason, we are recommending the Budget to the Irish people in the hope that national progress will continue to go ahead.

This year's Budget will be regarded as one of the most confusing ever presented by a Minister for Finance. It was incapable of immediate understanding by the majority of the people but one weekend was sufficient to evoke a storm of protest from the country at large. I could give hundreds of quotations but I will quote only The Kerryman as one: “Majority in the south-west not happy about the Budget.” It describes it as “A Brain-teaser Budget” and goes on to say:

Business people in particular are batting their brains figuring how to operate and account for the 6d in the £ turnover tax. And many of them in the south resent the role of unpaid tax collector and having a turnover tax to cope with as well as PAYE.

I shall not bother the House with many more quotations in relation to the reaction of the people, which is snowballing these days as the full implications of what is actually in the Minister's statement are coming more to light and as people appreciate the full impact of the Budget.

The statement regarding tax proposals this year is perforated by thin ends of wedges. We have so many new methods of taking money out of people's pockets, where the wedge is driven in just sufficiently to put it in position. We are told it is light. It has not been driven home, but it was never in this position before. All the Government have to do on another occasion is to give it another tap and sink it slightly deeper home. Then the money will flow in, still more millions out of the pockets of the producers in every section of our community, from every person, man, woman and child in the community.

For what purpose? To what end? Where will it end? Those are the questions we are asking in discussing this Budget Statement. Can it be alleged by any Minister or any Deputy supporting the Government that a single external factor is influencing the financial situation of the country this year? Is this Budget not influenced entirely by domestic factors? Our entire fiscal policy is framed on the conduct of our affairs over the past 12 months with very little effect by any external factor. Nobody can say there was any rationing of oils due to any international situation. It cannot be alleged that the terms of trade over the past 12 months were inimical to this country. But we can allege that when the terms of trade were somewhat better, the Government did not take much notice and did not allow for the fact that they might not maintain their strength. They claimed credit for any benefits accruing to the country due to the slightly better terms of trade. They ignored the warnings emanating from these benches that we would be in trouble if there was any deterioration in the terms of trade. However, they did not deteriorate to the point that would amount to a serious problem in preparing our national accounts for the coming 12 months.

We have, of course, a record imbalance of payments, but we know that was occasioned by our failure to get the level of exports that would make it possible for the country to maintain the standard of living which demanded the level of imports we had over the past 12 months. Again, when warnings were issued from these benches in regard to the balance of payments position, they were ignored by Ministers. Those were the days of never having had it so good, in which the atmosphere at all the Saturday night dinners was such that there was not a single cloud on the horizon.

But a different picture is painted by the confessions enshrined in the Minister for Finance's Budget Statement. Is it not a fact that the out-turn of revenue in the past 12 months far exceeded the anticipated amount which would accrue to the Minister for Finance to be disbursed among the various Departments of State? Is it not a fact that, by PAYE and other methods, the Government have succeeded over the past few years in bringing into the coffers of the State more than it was estimated would be needed for the management of the various Departments?

I intend to prove in a few minutes that the solution to our economic problems, advanced in very definite terms by members of the Government not so long ago, was that the direction of the policy and activities of Ministers in Government should be towards retrenchment and better management in every Ministry and not towards an increased burden of taxation either on business people by way of corporation profits tax or individually on every single person in the State by way of the turnover sales tax.

If we had this vast increase in the cost of running our various Departments, it is not by any means a sixmarker to ask any Deputy what has contributed most towards the inflation in the Book of Estimates in every single Department. Is it not solely attributable to the policy of the Government when they decided to abolish the food subsidies, when they took away the £9 million the House voted to keep down the cost of living and to ensure that every member of the community could purchase the necessaries of life at a reasonable price? Did they not ward off the type of increase which we have, unfortunately, since suffered? Is it not a fact we had the unfortunate experience that when the present Minister for Health first interfered with the level of food subsidisation, he presented that as a measure designed to cut from the Book of Estimates a substantial amount of money that had to be found by taxation? Once that was done, the people were told, the result would be they would have to pay less in taxation, they would have to pay more for the necessaries of life—bread, butter, tea and every item that had been subsidised—but they would get it back by way of a lesser charge on them in taxation. There was no other purpose in the reduction at that time of the food subsidies.

However, there followed from that a leap in the cost of living index figure. Consequent on that leap, we had the reasonable demands of State personnel for compensation to meet this increase in the cost of living— increases which the Government were forced to award—followed immediately by demands in the private sector of the community. Whether it was a limited liability company, a State company or a family-run concern, even if a person merely had a limited number of workers employed in the distributive trade, every single employer had to find an increase in wages to meet this increase in the cost of living and give their employees some reasonable addition due to the impact of the rise in the cost of living.

That was the unfortunate experience of the country but it should have been enough to have educated the Fianna Fáil Party in regard to the repercussions of their action in partially removing the food subsidies. It was at a later stage, despite election assurances — often quoted in this House; surely there is no need to quote them over again because by now they must be well driven into the memories of every Deputy—that the subsidies would not be touched and would be maintained, that the Minister for Finance did otherwise. It was partly as a result of these assurances that the Government secured office. Having secured office, they proceeded, in the face of these assurances, to eliminate what was left of the food subsidies.

Now we have the wheel turning again. We had the State personnel being compensated, and every penny of that compensation was necessary to reward the civil servants, members of the Garda and Army and everybody drawing a pay packet from the State. It was particularly necessary for those in the lower echelons to protect them from the impact of this savage leap forward in the cost of living. Each time a Minister had to introduce an Estimate, it was inflated by the demand for money to pay these increases, and that has been a major factor contributing to the increased cost of living and of operating the cost of services in this country. There was no reference of any kind to the fact that these increases were inimical to the conduct of so many private firms, to the people who complied with all the lectures and advice offered by Ministers as to how best they should operate their concerns. They also had to get increases to pay their personnel and at the same time pay the increased taxes to cover those who were State employees. In between, we had the consumer being ground down, the person who ultimately had to pay the whole lot whether as a taxpayer or a purchaser of the goods from firms which had to bear these increased charges.

There is no other factor contributing to the explosion—if I might call it that—of the cost of running individual Departments than the withdrawal of the food subsidies, thereby sparking off increases in the cost of living. There was some remedial action taken on behalf of people living on social welfare benefits to protect them from the full impact of the increased cost of living but it was not sufficient and none of the self-employed people, or the shopkeepers, or the farmers, and particularly the small farmers, received any compensation for the impact of the increases on the cost of living. There was a time when it was felt that the cost of living only had an impact on urban dwellers but that day has long gone.

In our journeyings throughout our constituencies, we are repeatedly reminded of the drop in the purchasing power of money and of how difficult it is for people to live on the income from small farms or from small sums of invested money; how difficult it is to exist, let alone enjoy a reasonable standard of living. It is in these circumstances that this year the Government have decided to extract £10½ million from the people in a full year, according to the Minister. Other Ministers imply that this money is absolutely necessary to pay for this, that and the other thing. Is it not a fact that the buoyancy in revenue over the past year was such that there could have been an increase to the dairy farmers of 5d a gallon for milk, or if the Government did not decide to do that they could have done many other things? If their forecasts of the prosperity that lies ahead of us are correct, if they believe them, they could confidently estimate on a continued buoyancy or an accelerated buoyancy without increasing taxation.

I emphatically deny that there was the slightest necessity for imposing additional taxation this year. We are entitled to suggest that the Government are playing a political game and looking forward to amassing a considerable surplus—by way of the turnover tax, the increased corporation profits tax and by new ways of implementing the existing income tax code—which will be available at an opportune moment to be dished out to purchase the suffrage of the people. Mark you, if they have that in mind, they have completely underestimated the intelligence of the people. They have completely miscalculated the reaction to their proposal in this Budget, because since this Budget Statement was made we have met people in different walks of life, but particularly those in the distributive trades, who are more incensed over the proposals in this Budget than by anything done by any Government at any time. I am not exaggerating when I say that. We are sorry to see that Deputy Burke has a cold to-day. He appeared to be in his usual good health last night but it is no wonder that he should have been talking so much about the fears in his mind as to the consequences of this Budget putting the Government out of office. If he was fearful more of us were hopeful about such an occurrence because there appeared to be no other way of bringing the Government to heel, despite the partial climb-down of the Minister for Transport and Power in the outrageous statement he made last night.

Among the innovations in the Budget this year was a raid on the Road Fund. Deputy Noel Lemass announced that the Government had provided £2 million more for the Road Fund. I understood that this Road Fund was amassed from taxation on motor vehicles. At any rate, it is not something that was dispensed by the grace and favour of any Minister for Finance. There is a proposal to raid the Road Fund and we have this extraordinary delay, which was pinpointed at Question Time yesterday, in the allocation of Road Fund moneys to the various councils. They are all waiting to know what they will get and there is not a single county engineer, assistant engineer, or deputy engineer, who is aware of what he may budget for in the coming 12 months and they will not know until the Department of Local Government reveal what the amounts are.

I have no intention of going into further detail regarding the raid on that fund because I propose to leave, in their entirety, any remarks to be made to my colleague, the Chairman of the Cork County Council, Deputy Corry. No better authority can be found in this House to protest on any and every occasion the Road Fund is touched. I challenge him now to come into this House and to express his mind as actively and as forcefully as he has been wont to do regarding raids on the Road Fund. It will be interesting to see what reaction he will get from his own Party in office.

It has been thrown at members of the Opposition that they should pinpoint the economies that should be effected to reduce the cost of Government. It is like somebody being injured in an accident through the negligence of, say, a motor driver, and the person who comes and picks up the injured person being asked: "What can you do to repair the damage done by the motorist?" When the members of the Government were sitting in these benches, they had a very different approach to this matter of the information which is available only to members of Government regarding where and how economies can be effected.

May I quote a statement by the Taoiseach, with which I agree? It is from a leading article in the Irish Independent for Friday, 8th March:

It is not the taxpayers' business, not the newspapers' business, nor even the business of the Opposition to frame the Government's budget. It is the right of us all to protest that the bill is unreasonable, that too much of it is being served on too few, and that there is no sign of the Government being ready to give adequate help to those most in need.

That is the responsibility of Government and we are quite entitled to suggest that the Government have failed to exercise that close examination of the country's Estimates that would give us the guarantee that the money which is exacted from the people by way of taxation is being spent in the proper fashion.

When the present Leader of the Government was in Opposition, he was most vociferous about the level of expenditure at that time. He never suggested that once he assumed office he would increase taxation by £50 million per annum and introduce new systems which would be unlimited in the scope to which they can be utilised in later years with intensified effect.

Let us remember the time the Taoiseach betook himself to Clonmel. Up to yesterday, the Taoiseach was very fond of chambers of commerce. Having read the statement published by the Dublin Chamber of Commerce yesterday, I can see a cooling off in the affections between himself and these bodies. It is not long since he informed us across the floor of the House that chambers of commerce were analogous to Fianna Fáil cumainn. The Taoiseach told us that.

Yes—on his visit to Limerick.

No. Look up the report.

Yes. We have the record.

Exactly. Read it.

The Deputy will not read it. He will not quote it. He dare not quote it.

He said it by way of interjection. It may have been a slip.

It was not. Quote it.

He said it.

He did not.

Yes, and when I challenged him——

I challenge the Deputy to quote.

——he did not deny it, although he was in the House. At any rate, he was most affectionate at that time towards chambers of commerce and betook himself to Clonmel.

Try to get it right.

At Clonmel, according to a report of his speech in the Irish Times of 18th January, 1952, the Taoiseach said:

Increasing tax rates is, however, a course which produces other economic consequences also, which contracts the amount which the public has available to spend on other things and limits the amount of savings.

I agree, and I am sure Deputy Booth agrees with these sentiments. It is a statement of fact. The Taoiseach went on:

Clearly, therefore, tax increases should not be considered if there is a possibility of avoiding them by reducing the cost of Government services or by eliminating or postponing the introduction of services which we can do without until we are able to afford them.

That is somewhat contrary to the Budget provisions of this year. Those provisions could not be much more at variance with the sentiments the Taoiseach expressed at that time. The Taoiseach went further. He had other suggestions to make, like the possibility of introducing changes in administrative methods directed to securing a full return of work from public officials. He went on:

Food subsidies must be accepted as likely to remain a permanent feature in the Estimates unless a very steep fall in the cost of living should take place and that is not very likely, to put it mildly.

The Taoiseach has the habit of being forceful in his announcements. He can make assertions more effectively than most men in public life. It is accepted by many people that they are well thought out statements, that he prepares his material well. It cannot be said that he is impetuous in making rash statements such as that. They are not thought of on the spur of the moment. They are carefully prepared. We can be sure that when he declared that food subsidies must be accepted as likely to remain a permanent feature in the Estimates that he meant it.

That is not all. At column 47 of the Official Report for 8th May, 1956, the Taoiseach, then Deputy Lemass, had this to say:

Have the Government any sense of responsibility? Have they any knowledge of the tasks that are facing them? Did it occur to them that this Budget deficit of theirs should be rectified by reducing the cost of Government?

Remark—the Budget deficit was not to be rectified by the introduction of a turnover tax or overturn tax, whatever you like to call it. It was not to be rectified by that means, the means adopted this year. It was to be rectified by reducing the cost of Government. At column 49 the Taoiseach, then Deputy Lemass, went on:

In 1953, the Fianna Fáil Government, of which I was a member, took a decision——

He was not now speaking as an individual; he was not speaking merely for himself. Here we had a Government calmly sitting down around the table, with all the advice and all the assistance available only to members of a Government and, having given careful consideration to the financial problems of the country, the Government had come to a decision. What was the decision?:

——that taxation in this country had reached the danger limit.

If it had reached the danger limit when it was £50 million less than it is today, what word in the English language can be employed to describe the present situation? Perhaps on the next occasion the Government meet, with all the advice still available to them, they will arrive at some description comparable with the description of the situation at that time, namely, that taxation had reached the danger limit. The Taoiseach went on:

We announced that we had made up our minds on that fact and that, so far as we were concerned, there would be no increase in tax rates above the 1953 level.

"No increase in tax rates above the 1953 level." He went on:

We made it clear that, if any Budget difficulty arose, that difficulty would be met by a reduction of expenditure and not by increasing the burdens on the taxpayer.

Could anything be more clear? There was a confident leader of a Government who asserted that, seated at the Cabinet table with his colleagues, they had come to a decision. This was not something thought up in Mount Street. This was not something for publication in Gleás. It was a firm, recorded, Government decision. How ridiculous it looks, and particularly when we have to listen to the vapourings about honesty of Deputy Burke, who claimed that only the Government were national and honest. I suppose all the others are traitors, rogues and dishonest.

Here we see the most blatant contradictions of what the Minister and the Government are doing. At column 49, the Taoiseach went on:

Will the Government make up their minds now that Government expenditure cannot go higher than they have let it go to date? Can they give the people a promise that there is any prospect of stability now?

For the benefit of the Minister for Justice, I am quoting the remarks of someone who is quite familiar to him, the Taoiseach, regarding the excessive cost of Government in other days.

I know him well.

His solution of our difficulties was a more economic management of individual Departments and a reduction in the amount of national expenditure. In no circumstances would he consider increased taxation. That is on record. Unfortunately the Minister did not have the benefit of the quotations. They are exceedingly interesting.

I do not mind if the Deputy goes over them again.

The Chair might. There may be time for someone else to give them to the Minister to improve his knowledge of the vapourings of people who are quite prominent at the moment.

The Tánaiste could never leave it to to Taoiseach when it came to making affirmative declarations regarding the economic position of the country. He had much to say regarding the economies that could be effected in expenditure. As reported at column 68 of the same volume of the Official Report he said:

That is what the working class people in our rural areas are paying for the fact that the Government have not tackled what is the basic difficulty in all this matter, the phenomenon of rising Government expenditure.

It was a phenomenon at that time. It baffles us to find words to express the intensity with which that idea was conveyed by prominent politicians when they were in Opposition, when we compare it with the vast increase in Government expenditure that has occurred since—and there is not the slightest suggestion of putting a brake on it.

The Tánaiste went on:

Until we can manage to curb and curtail that, there will be no relief for any taxpayer in this country and the burdens upon the workers, upon the poorer sections of this community, are going to be increased.

At least he was a little more prophetic than the Taoiseach regarding further increases, and his solution of our difficulties was a curtailment in State expenditure.

Among the economies about which members of the Government waxed eloquently as recently as 8th May, 1957, was one contained in a statement by the Minister for Finance which I recall as having been well received in the country. As reported at column 940 of the Official Report, he said:

The Civil Service itself has been concentrating for quite a while on organisation and methods studies. Useful results have been achieved but the total cost of administration none the less remains too high.

A Budget statement is not a rash production. It is well prepared, thought out, and approved by the Government before it is presented. It is on record that the Minister said solemnly in his Budget statement in 1957 that the total cost of administration remains too high. In the same column, the Minister is reported as saying:

The existing Civil Service structure seems too elaborate for our needs.

Leading articles in provincial papers and in the daily press welcomed the decision of the Government to effect economies in the Civil Service. A douche of cold water on those pious outpourings is the fact that in the Book of Estimates for 1963-64, there is a figure of 20,635 State personnel, which represents an increase of 2,175 since 1956-57. Not one of those 20,635 persons was employed to administer the turnover tax. It yet remains to be seen what size battalion will be employed to ensure that the small shopkeepers pay up and look pleasant once a month.

This Budget has some other dramatic inclusions. One is the requirement in relation to the disclosure of bank deposits over £1,500. Legislation to require banks to disclose deposits has perhaps some merit. It can get after income tax defaulters, but it invites questions. I think the merits of requiring the disclosure of bank deposits are outweighed in two ways, the first of which is that money on deposit may now be sent out of the country. No doubt before he intervened between the managers and the depositors, and realising the degree of confidence which exists in those circumstances, the Minister gave due consideration to the fact that impairing that confidence might cause the removal out of the country of money on deposit. May I continue when the conversation has concluded on the opposite side?

I apologise.

I do not think it was the Minister's fault. Secondly, there is the question of the creation of uneasiness in the public mind by an intrusion, for the first time other than in court cases, into the very special confidential relationship between banks and their customers. Those two questions are pertinent, and they may well outweigh the merits of catching income tax defaulters. I suggest that the Government should carefully consider the implications of this legislation, lest at any time it might be further extended.

There is a definite danger of a movement of money out of the country. Another danger I see is one which will be familiar to Deputy Cunningham or any rural Deputy. We remember how hard it was to get people in remote areas to abandon the practice of putting money into a stocking and to get them to lodge their small deposits in the banks. Is there an incentive here for them to revert to that old practice? We have been appalled to read of horrible raids made on old people who keep their little savings at home—and these will be even less by the time the Minister has finished with the turnover tax. But, at any rate, there will be the dribbling home of money from our people whom we have sent to work in England. Emigrants' remittances make a substantial contribution to our balance of payments. A good deal of this money reaches the hands of the old mother or old father still in the homestead. Will all this have the effect of making them think twice before they lodge this money in the security of a bank? Will we have a repetition of the unfortunate incidents with which we are becoming all too familiar—robbery, stealing, assault? These incidents are becoming all too common in our courts and they arise because people fail to exercise common sense.

This money is usually put in the post office.

Is it? At any rate, they might decide to put it into the bank. There are people who prefer to have the assistance and advice of a bank manager. It would be very retrograde if the excellent relationship that exists between bank managers and their clients were impaired in any way as a result of this proposal. That should be weighed against any advantages that might accrue from tightening the income tax net in order to bring in some people, who admittedly should be brought in, but one should weigh the advantages against the disadvantages. Can we, in our circumstances, afford any movement of money away from our banks and out of the country because of any feeling of uncertainty these people might have concerning the confidential nature of their private transactions with their banks?

With regard to the 50 per cent increase in corporation profits tax and the extension to cover amounts not formally liable to tax, I can only say that this constitutes an intolerable burden on industry. I urge the early introduction of the Finance Bill so that there may be a review of the retrospective clause in particular, the retrospective clause in the Budget which has caused such consternation throughout the country.

Earlier, I referred to the warm and affectionate relations that appear to exist between the Taoiseach and the chambers of commerce. These have become somewhat impaired and we had the Taoiseach's interjection here that the Limerick Chamber of Commerce was analogous to a Fianna Fáil cumann. It cannot be alleged though that the statement issued yesterday by the Dublin Chamber of Commerce is politically coloured and we can, therefore, claim that it is an objective review of the consequences of this Budget.

It could not be Fine Gael either, I suppose.

Any time in the past five years that one opened a paper on Monday morning one found the Taoiseach, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, or the Minister for Transport and Power, bedecked in a white tie and encircled by other people wearing white ties, with the black headlines stating that the Taoiseach, or the Minister, had made some profound statement of policy at some chamber of commerce function on the previous Saturday night. One saw the admiring expressions because these great people had paid the chamber of commerce the compliment of selecting them, rather than this House, as the avenue through which to reveal some carefully prepared statement on the future of the country. We can assume that the Taoiseach and the Ministers knew, when accepting the invitations to these functions, that they were not Fine Gael Party functions. We can assume that. That lends considerably more weight then to the statement issued yesterday by the Dublin Chamber of Commerce. They referred to deposits in the banks. They said:

It was also considered that the proposal to have banks make a return of deposit interests was an encroachment into the privacy of banking transactions and could shake the confidence of overseas investors in the Irish banks.

Referring to corporation profits tax, they said:

The increase of 50 per cent in the amount of corporation profits tax which will be assessed on limited companies was wholly unexpected. It was generally recognised that this type of tax was undesirable. The revised method of assessment had greatly increased the incidence of this tax. Previously the amount paid could be deducted in arriving at the assessable figure for income tax but this was abolished in 1961.

Furthermore the exemption limit was reduced from £5,000 to £2,500 in the early years of the 1939-45 war, and the Minister now proposed that no exemption limit shall operate in respect of the new 5 per cent rate now introduced. Thus many small companies which were not previously liable for this tax would now be assessable.

Corporation profits tax fell entirely on the equity shareholders. This imposition on ordinary shareholders would discourage the investment of risk capital. The increase would also reduce the amount of corporate savings which was probably the most productive saving in the economy.

There is no disguising the fact that the 5 per cent increase in the rate of corporation profits tax and the inclusion of the first £2,500 in the basis for assessment will result in an addition of anything from 50 per cent to 100 per cent, depending on the company's profit. For example, a company earning a profit of £5,000 per annum will now attract an increased liability of 100 per cent.

Many firms have already received their assessment for 1962 and will now be called on to meet a further liability for corporation profits tax. This retrospective element will force the companies concerned to revise their plans for reinvestment, particularly companies in the distributive trades.

Receipts from income tax for the year ending March 31, 1963, show an increase of over £5,000,000 and corporation profits tax an increase of nearly £1,000,000. It seems probable that revenue buoyancy would have had the effect of increasing the yield from those taxes in the current year without the proposed corporation profits tax increase."

One recalls that on these social occasions and gatherings to which the Taoiseach repaired there was generally a lecture and advice tendered as to the desirability of all those engaged in industry modernising their concerns, adapting them to modern conditions in order to face competition from abroad. It was said these requirements would have to be met by the business community. How often have we read about the necessity for ploughing back profits to ensure expansion? What does this Budget do to assist the ploughing back of such profits? It is ripping the boards, the sole plate and the coulter from the plough. Granted, those engaged in export are exempted. That is something. But how many are employed in these exempted industries as compared with those employed in the distributive trade and industries catering for the requirements of our own people?

Surely the day has come when ordinary Irish people prepared to rear their families here are entitled to service by firms which have the same incentives, the same protection and the same advantages as are given to those who are providing these services and goods for people resident in other countries? What is wrong with that? Have we not gone far enough in asking our people to pay more for Irish butter in order that we may subsidise it for people across the Channel to eat it? We have had too much of that.

We should not export butter at all then?

I realise the necessity for exports as well as Deputy Cunningham or anybody else. I never said that it would be a good day for this country if every ship was at the bottom of the sea. The Deputy now seems to be a very ardent convert to the idea of increased exports but he must remember that it was Deputy Sweetman who introduced the whole idea of tax-free incentives for exports. The wisdom of that action was such that Fianna Fáil decided it would be to their advantage and to the advantage of the country to retain it and to extend it. Was it not well for the country that Deputy Sweetman thought of that good idea? The Deputy's Party were in power for 20 years before that and they never thought of it. We know that many planks in Fianna Fáil policy have been abandoned but there are still a few left that it would be well for them to abandon also.

We know the value of agricultural exports to this country and we know that in consequence of the wisdom of the 1948 Government in obtaining a good trade agreement with Great Britain we doubled the volume and trebled the value of our exports. The Deputy must have thrown off his coat with delight at that achievement. In terms of exports, whether agricultural or industrial, we are ensuring that we have sufficient exports to maintain the imports which are necessary to maintain the standard of living which we all hope to enjoy.

Regarding the employment situation in the country, the Minister for Social Welfare described the position as one which made it extremely difficult to frame the Budget of this year. He dealt extensively with the operations of his own Department but he did not deal with the wider consequences of the budgetary provisions. Strangely enough, he never once referred to the employment situation. If he had he would have found out that there are 58,500 fewer people in employment in the country than when his Government assumed office. This may be the reason he was wise enough to keep off the subject. If he had anything to brag about he would have given figures to the House but it was because he was compelled to bring in a Supplementary Estimate a few months ago to meet the worsening situation that he made no reference to the fact that fewer people are now employed. It is regrettable that the figures recently provided by his Department show that there was a disimprovement of 4,412 since the corresponding date last year and 5,073 with the corresponding date of two years ago.

These figures show the present unhealthy trend and they fall far short of the promise made by the Taoiseach in Clery's Restaurant to provide 100,000 new jobs, a promise that helped to gain a certain amount of support for this Government and to put it into office. It is preposterous, having regard to that, that we should have to listen last night to the statements made by a "former Minister for Finance," as he is described in a newspaper today. The country has had many inflictions of different kinds put upon it but it has not yet had Deputy Childers as Minister for Finance. He was speaking last night as Minister for Transport and Power, although I prefer to describe him as the Minister without functions. He had the audacity to deny last night that his Party ever made a promise to give employment to 100,000 people over a period of five years.

That promise was accepted throughout the country and it was one of the main planks in the Fianna Fáil platform—that, and the advice to the ladies to get their husbands to work. The employment situation must, indeed, be bad when the Minister for Transport and Power goes to the extent of denying that they ever assured the people that if they got back to office, not only would they bring the exiles back from abroad but they would also provide full employment for the people at home and for those coming along. The 100,000 new jobs which they promised were to absorb the whole lot.

The Minister for Transport and Power had no doubt that, as a result of the Budget, business would be stimulated to re-equip with modern machinery, to consider exports of being of prime importance and to supplement sales at home by increased export facilities. That is too much. It would be bad enough if Deputy Burke had said it but when a person such as the Minister for Transport and Power says it, surely it is time for the Government to realise that they have not a hope on earth of getting away with that kind of duplicity?

He went further and said that this matter of the 100,000 jobs was nauseating propaganda on the part of Fine Gael. We wonder where the nausea is. His idea of promoting increased sales at home is to impose a levy of 6d in the £ on everything sold at home. This, according to him, is the way to extend home consumption. It is generally hard to have to listen to the Minister for Transport and Power but he certainly excelled himself last night.

Before I go on to refer further to budgetary matters, I should like to bring one particular matter to the attention of the Government, a matter that is continuing to cause the utmost concern in the country, that is, the purchase of land by foreigners. Deputy Dillon has repeatedly voiced the concern of those of us who reside in the country and who know the efforts many young men have to make over the years to get enough money together to purchase a holding and settle down. These boys now have no chance whatever of acquiring a holding in competition with the foreigners who are now coming in and buying up the land.

The Minister for Lands was compelled to make a statement that the amount of land purchased did not exceed in value some £500,000 but this was contradicted by the Minister for Finance who said, within a matter of a fortnight, that the amount was about £1 million. We do not know what the figure is now but, whatever it is, it is entirely too much. We cannot afford to deny these young men the opportunity of continuing to live in their own country and to invest the money they have saved, through their hard work and through the economies they exercise, in order to continue in the way of life their fathers and their grandfathers had won for them and for which they had worked.

It is regrettable that these young men should be in such difficulties because of the Government's desire to accumulate as much hot money as possible and to present it to us as being something of benefit to the country. These people are very welcome as long as they come here with the intention of giving employment. There is plenty of scope for their industrial activities if they wish to engage in them but we resent particularly the attitude of many of them after they come here towards people exercising rights they have held traditionally especially along the coastline. It would be better for the Government to quell this now rather than face the storm which could develop if it is allowed to expand much further.

Regarding the social welfare benefits, it is quite true there were expectations of increases in advance of those given in this Budget. We are told by the Minister for Finance they have been given to mitigate the effects of the turnover tax not, as the Minister for Social Welfare expressed it, to compensate for those effects. However, there are other facets of our social welfare code which require attention. It is true that, because of the impact of the reducing value of money, the cost of living, and so forth, we are still operating a means test that is very harsh in many instances. It is a matter of regret that there was not the slightest easing of the means test in its application to the social welfare provisions of this Budget.

There is another matter to which I referred on the Social Welfare Estimate and which I thought might have been dealt with in this Budget, that is, the reduction of the qualifying age of female workers for pension rights which is not in accord with the practice in other countries. When it suits the Government's purpose, they are fond of introducing references to conditions in Scandinavia and other countries to support their arguments but they should take example from the more favourable attention such countries give to these workers. Apart from the mitigation of the taxation effects of this Budget, there was no social welfare provision in the Statement this year which was worthy of much attention.

The House will recall that last year there was a song and dance about the provision of £2 million to ease the rates burden on the agricultural community. Absolutely no relief was given to the shopkeepers, to the persons who are particularly hit in this Budget. No relief was given to any other persons in the community, apart from the farmers who had secured that remission only because of the effective demonstrations they had made. Since then, in discussions and otherwise, it was implied that the Government had been very diligently reviewing the whole rates collection system and that the first £20 was being considered as being exempt from rates. It was expected that in this Budget the Government would have come to the rescue still further of the agricultural community in regard to the payment of rates but, far from that, they have not even maintained the status quo because the effect of increased rates in practically every county in Ireland has been almost to eliminate any reliefs that were given in the Budget of last year. The cottier is now as substantial a ratepayer when income in many instances is compared, as his better-off neighbours. The shopkeeper on the side of the street, the very small farmer, none of those classes got any relief last year and if there is a further imposition in regard to rates this year, their position will be still worse.

If there is a song and dance made by the Minister for Social Welfare in regard to increased disablement benefit —and indeed it was not before its time that that increase was given in view of the increased cost of living and the reduced value of money—it must be remembered that the State is not going to pay for it. They claim they have been the fairy godmother but they will pay only half of it and those of us in local authorities who have already decided on our estimates will be faced with supplementary estimates to meet the £300,000 it is proposed to levy on the local authorities to meet half the cost of this benefit in the coming months.

That is not the only way in which this Budget has upset the calculations of the local authorities, a matter with which I propose to deal when I come to the major provision in the Budget this year, the turnover tax. Before I come to this turnover tax, I want to refer to the other impost the business community have had to bear, the increase in corporation profits tax. The business community in recent years have had to suffer many increases in their production costs. One of the major increases has been the increased cost of insurance stamps for their employees. To give them their due, they did not grouse about it. There was very little said by way of criticism of having to meet that additional charge, but when it is put into the mosaic of other charges they have to bear, the whole pattern represents a heavy burden. There have been the increased postage charges, not bearing very heavily on the individual citizen but certainly very heavily on business; there have been increased charges in regard to telephones; and not alone have there been increased transport charges but there have been diminished services. In the constituency I represent, one whole railway line has been removed. What cause was there for the withdrawal of these services other than the intention to relieve the Exchequer of the burden of having to subsidise CIE in the operation of this line? The community have been denied this service completely. During the present bus strike, they have been denied a bus service. Consequently they are completely stranded. If the railway line had been left in existence, they would have had the alternative of travelling by rail.

The people engaged in business in our towns throughout the country have been very adversely affected by the provisions of this Budget. They are the people who will bear this corporation profits tax and who several times during the year, by deliberate action of the various Ministers in this Government, have been called upon to bear increased costs in the operation of their concerns. Surely if there was any class that should have been selected for relief, it was that class when one considers the activity of the Valuation Office in increasing the valuation on very many of these business people and when one considers the impact of increased rates on them—never getting any relief. Was this the time, then, for the Government to embark on the injection of the thin end of the wedge in regard to the turnover tax?

Any of us who were given the books of unfortunate people within the past three weeks who failed to pay their rates last year cannot but be aware of their plight. These are the people whom the rate collectors reported as not having been in a position to pay their rates last year. In the majority of cases, they were people engaged in small businesses in the small towns of rural Ireland. Those of us who are members of local authorities have plenty of time to go down through the lists of defaulters. The returns show 96 and 97 per cent rates payment. That is a remarkable response by the ratepaying public to the levies imposed on them.

Consider the small proportion of those who could not meet the demand. There was agreement between the local rate collector—who in most instances is a tough individual, who does not throw anything away and who carries out his job most effectively—and the staff officers responsible for the collection of rates that these were cases in which it would be impossible to collect, without the utmost penalties being imposed and without placing these businesses in an impossible situation. It was agreed that that would happen if the Rates Office were to persist in the exaction of the rates that had been levied on these people.

It is also true, of course, that most of the people engaged in these businesses have absolutely no recourse to Health Act reliefs. They have to pay rates and taxation but, if they have the misfortune to contract disease or to have an accident, they have no recourse other than to try to meet the hospital bills. Those of us who are in a local authority are continually approached by such people seeking some assistance, seeking some easement of the bills presented to them by hospitals and such institutions.

Taking the agricultural situation, there is nothing in this Budget apart from the 1d increase that the Government decided upon. They stated they would not consider it but eventually they decided it would be better for them to give some increase in the price of milk. Apart from that, there was no ray of hope in the Budget Statement regarding the farming community. We had the Common Market dangled before us for so long and over a period in which the main Opposition Party felt it incumbent on them, in the national interest, to refrain from over-questioning the Government. They felt they should refrain from any statements that would in the slightest way embarrass the Government in a line of policy with which we were substantially in agreement. Yet, we could have had much to say.

We could have referred to very many things that were left undone. We could have referred to the delay in making the proper approaches, in preparing our people for advent to EEC—many of these things. We refrained from doing so. There was never any word of appreciation that I can recall of the part played by Deputy Dillon as Leader of the Opposition in giving the lead in that to the House. A Deputy nods his head: I am glad to know there was. At any rate, during all that period, it was represented to the farming community that admission to Europe would be achieved and that there would flow to our agricultural community benefits unknown before to the farmers of this country.

It is true that our application has not been withdrawn but unfortunately it is in suspension. Some years may pass before Britain is admitted and, consequently, before this country can afford to revive its application for membership. If we wished to be political, we could recall many statements made some years ago regarding the death of the British market but, even at this late hour, it is a matter of consolation to us to know that the policy we have ever upheld regarding the advantages to be gained by proper utilisation of that market is now recognised by the Government.

We can assert with truth that this Government have failed to review our marketing arrangements with Britain. There was an announcement, with considerable sounding of trumpets, that Ministers were on their way to London to meet their counterparts there and that it was expected they would bring back to this country favourable and considerable marketing arrangements with Britain. Unfortunately for the country and for the Government, they came back on that occasion with their hands hanging by their sides. Since then no positive effort appears to have been made to review our marketing arrangements with Britain, to bring them up to date, to encourage our people to harder work and to engage more actively in the production of commodities that we could sell under the terms of such agreements.

Let me dwell on the effect of the Budget on the farming community. In The Kerryman of 27th April, 1963 there is a report of an interview which took place between a reporter of that newspaper and Mr. Jerome Buttimer of Glenville, County Cork, National Vice-President of the NFA and President of the NFA in County Cork.

Said Mr. Buttimer: This Budget will be a disappointment for farmers who expected devaluation on the first £20 of their valuations.

The benefits of the recent increase of one penny per gallon in the price of milk given to the dairymen will now be offset by the new turnover tax because raw materials needed by the farmer will cost more. Domestic requirements for the farmer's household will also go up in price.

There were other dangers attached to the provisions of the Budget.

He refers to the latest burden and says :

There is a danger that local government expenditure will increase as a result of this Budget—that it will increase beyond the estimate recently provided for those services in county council estimates. County councils will have to pay more for their raw materials of various kinds —cement, food, clothing, equipment, machinery and many other items. The effect of this will be felt in the local rates next year as a result of supplementary estimates that the councils may bring in

That will all add up, I am afraid, to a heavier load on the already overburdened farmer as a ratepayer.

There is no mood of optimism there regarding the financial policy of the Government facing the next 12 months and any other comments that have been made have borne out the views expressed by Mr. Buttimer.

Earlier, I remarked that the Government were in the happy position, from the buoyancy of revenue last year, to bring relief to the classes that have got some increased awards in their social welfare benefits. They could have provided the money needed to give the increase to the dairy milk suppliers out of existing taxation. The buoyancy in revenue seemed to indicate that that trend was likely to continue. Forecasts of expansion in the economy in coming years would also indicate that that buoyancy would be accelerated. Nevertheless that did not satisfy the Government.

This year, we have the most remarkable innovation, financially, the country has experienced for very many years in the turnover tax. We recall that the first time this was brought to the attention of the country was when the Income Tax Commission reported that they were in favour of some kind of purchase tax as an alternative to income tax, but very definitely as an alternative to income tax. Then we had the Taoiseach repairing to Limerick and announcing to the country at large it was the intention of the Government to consider the introduction of a purchase and sales tax. The immediate effect of that, in circumstances in which our level of imports had increased and in which our exports were not being maintained, circumstances in which we had balance of payment difficulties, was an incentive to people to get out immediately to buy the articles pinpointed by junior members of the Government as being the specific items to be taxed heavily in the form of a purchase tax. We had them set out by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands, who repaired to the West of Ireland and identified them as fur coats, luxury motor cars, refrigerators and so on. They expected the tax to be confined to those items.

Since the Taoiseach spoke in Limerick, retailers throughout the country have been bombarded with applications from people to purchase these items. No doubt between now and All Souls' Day, when this turnover tax is to be imposed, many people will "jump the Minister's gun" and purchase many of these items. They may not exactly need them yet but they will come by the price and make whatever terms they can with the person supplying them in an effort to avoid paying the increased turnover tax. Consequently, I believe the full impact of the tax will not be achieved until many of these items are worn out. But, even as it is, the Minister has decided to obtain £3½ million from the tax in the four months of the financial year that will remain.

The Dublin Chamber of Commerce had some comments to make regarding the turnover tax in their statement which was published in today's newspapers. I am not aware, however, to what extent it is published in "The Truth in the News". The newspaper report goes on:

The statement from the Dublin Chamber of Commerce points out that the commercial community was in favour of the partial replacement of direct taxation by indirect taxation which would spread the burden more evenly. But the turnover tax now proposed was in addition to, and not a substitute for, income tax. In fact, with the additional corporation profits tax the volume of income tax has been increased by the Budget.

In the current financial year the yield from the turnover tax was expected to be £3,500,000 from four months receipts, so that in a full year the tax would probably produce about £10,000,000.

That is a very conservative figure for them to mention. The Minister puts it in advance of that by £500,000. There are many other people examining the situation who feel it could be even ahead of that. If the country is to experience this expanding economy repeated ad infinitum one can expect, unless there is a diminution in consumption arising from heavier taxation, that more will accrue from it. We must remember the admission of the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance that we had reached the point of diminishing returns in relation to taxation on the simple luxuries. A long time ago, when the Government were increasing taxation on tobacco and spirits, that fact was pointed out to them from these benches. Now we have the admission that the only factor on this occasion which induced the Government to refrain from taxing tobacco, cigarettes, beer, wines and spirits was the fact that as a revenue winner, it would be ineffective. It was not because it would impose a further burden on the consumer, but because “the lolly” could not be derived from it. Therefore, we had to embark on the turnover tax.

The Dublin Chamber of Commerce go on to say :

This was a most unsatisfactory situation as it might encourage the Government to increase expenditure unnecessarily, or, in any event, be less zealous in its efforts to restrict spending to a minimum. It was to be hoped this temptation would be resisted and that any excess in Exchequer Revenue would be passed back to the citizen in the form of lower income tax.

Again, we believe there is a deeper and more invidious reason behind the over—taxation that is proposed than to give relief to any particular section of the community.

The report goes on :

Strong exception must be taken to the basis on which the turnover tax is to be operated. In effect the Government has introduced a levy on sales and has left the retail trade to take the odium of passing on this tax to the public.

The implication that the retail trade would be in a position to absorb portion of this tax was entirely erroneous.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach pay heed to that? He informed us here, speaking on this resolution last week, that he knew of concerns in his constituency that could put up notices saying "Goods available at old prices."

The Dublin Chamber of Commerce report continues:

In practically every retail trade a levy of 2½ per cent on gross turnover would greatly exceed the net profit earned. Thus the retail trade would have no option but to recover the full amount of this tax from the public and the Government must take entire responsibility for the wide repercussions this increase in the cost of living will have on the various sections of the community.

The administration of this turnover tax will severely dislocate all sectors of the distributive trades. The compilation and verification of monthly turnover figures, the completion of numerous forms and returns which will be necessary under the scheme, and the discussion and negotiations with officials on these figures will all involve extra costs in clerical and executive man-hours.

Furthermore, as this tax is to be levied on gross turnover, it introduces the undesirable principle of paying "tax on tax". In some countries the sales tax is separately stated as an addition to the price.

With the extra costs involved in administering the collection of the levy for the State and the operation of the "tax on tax" principle it must be recognised that ultimate incidence of this tax on the public will exceed the bare 2½ per cent indicated by the Minister, the statement continues.

Commodities like tobacco, beer, spirits and oils were liable to excise duties several times greater than the prime cost of the article, and practically all imported consumer goods were subject to a customs duty. All those items would be liable to the new tax at the full retail price so that, in effect, the Government was increasing those excise and customs duties by the amount of the levy.

The mind boggles at the task of registering over 40,000 retailers and about 5,000 manufacturers and wholesalers, not to speak of thousands of hotels, guest houses, restaurants, barbers, taxi-drivers, jobbing plumbers and general handymen, and the even greater task of ensuring that each and every person registered makes a monthly return of his sales with a remittance of the amount of the levy involved.

Having regard to the fact that the scheme is intended to cover all retail transactions of both goods and services throughout the country the Minister's estimate that the cost of administration to the State will be less than one per cent of yield seems to be unduly optimistic.

I should like to know what the view of the Minister for Justice is regarding the cost of administering this turnover tax, leaving out for a moment the merits of this method of taxing our people. Is it possible that this will be administered for a sum of £80,000 per annum?

Electronic computers.

An electronic computer? Well, we are getting somewhere now. We are getting some information. Will this electronic computer be available to every huckster shop——

The Deputy may not address questions across the House to the Minister.

I am sorry. Through you, Sir, will this computer be available to every huckster shop in every town in the country?

Huckster shops will be out.

They will be out? Who said that?

The Minister in his speech.

Could the Minister quote the Minister for Finance because I have not got his speech with me? Could he give me the reference where he said that huckster shops will be out?

I will do it when I speak.

But that frustrates me because I am going to deal with huckster shops——

Any shop with a turnover of less than £100 will, in effect, be out.

Any shop with less than £100 will be out?

The Deputy must not have read the Minister's speech.

They will pay 17/6.

They will starve to death anyway.

That is the point I am coming to. Did the Minister say what this person lived on?

That is not what the Deputy was talking about.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy is entitled to make his speech without interruption.

I know that the Chair is not able to vouchsafe the information I am looking for, but does the Minister conceive that a person is living on this level of income?

That is not what the Deputy was talking about.

I referred to huckster shops.

The Deputy was about to bleed for the huckster shops.

It is they that will be bled and they know the leeches who are bleeding them. The Minister has diverted me from the point I was making.

Acting Chairman

I am afraid the Deputy sought diversion.

I did not seek diversion from the cost of administering the scheme because the electronic computer is going to do it. I am entitled to ask where will this electronic computer operate?

It is most unlikely that it will operate on the Aran Islands.

Can we assume it is more likely to operate in Dublin ?

I would say that is a fair assumption.

Will this be so mobile that it will visit Timoleague, Rockchapel, and any place we may name in the country and examine the shopkeeper's accounts and announce itself as being satisfied that the turnover was less than £100, accept 17/6 and furnish a receipt, and will it also take into account the amount of bad debts in that month ?

Bad debts do not enter into this. It is cash turnover.

This electronic computer will first of all have ascertained from the wholesaler the amount of goods forwarded to the particular shopkeeper for sale, then check his——

Might I just inform the Deputy that there are now computers which can play the game of X's and O's with professors and beat them?

At any rate this electronic computer is interesting and the House awaits with bated breath more information from the Minister for Justice regarding its operation. It will be very interesting when one realises that it costs us 9d in the £ to collect income tax and I am entitled to ask why was not this marvellous computer used to collect the 9d in the £?

It will be. It will effect savings.

But it will not eliminate the 9d ? It could be 7d or 8d.

The White Paper on Direct Taxation mentioned bringing about the position of one taxpayer, one charge.

This saving will be effected in costs and it will mean an increase in revenue for the Government.

Or else, less taxation.

Less taxation ? Who said it? Is there any indication in this Budget that there is at the back of the mind of any member of the Government any intention to reduce taxation? We are introducing new methods of closing up all the loopholes in taxation.

Income tax evasion.

We are embarking on a policy of closing all gaps to ensure that there is not a penny that will go astray.

In income tax evasion.

The £1,500 exemption from corporation profits tax was not evasion.

It was legal evasion. It was provided for by legislation that it would be exempted. Now the Minister informs us that the electronic computer will relieve the Revenue Commissioners of the 9d in the £, to a great extent, in collecting income tax. If it does that much in collecting income tax, will £80,000 collect the £3½ million in the four months? Or do I take it that £80,000 is to cover 12 months and not four months? It will be responsible for the collection of the £3½ million from the 40,000 retailers, 5,000 manufacturers and wholesalers, not to speak of thousands of hotels, guesthouses, restaurants, barbers, taxi-drivers, jobbing plumbers and general handymen. If this £80,000 can be responsible for doing that, we can look forward to saving several million pounds next year because we will be able to wipe out three-quarters of the Civil Service by purchasing some of these machines.

The Deputy must not be aware that we will have to employ some extra electricians to look after the machines.

I had the feeling that the Minister was joking when he mentioned the electronic computer.

No. Did the Deputy not read the White Paper? It is mentioned in it.

It might be like the helicopters. It might be too dear and we will have to leave it to next year.

It is in the White Paper. Shall I quote ?

But you have not accepted everything in the White Paper.

In regard to the range of this Budget, nobody can allege that it was not extended.

Paragraph 2 of the White Paper on Direct Taxation.

I have not got that with me. That relates to income tax.

Did the Deputy not read it? It refers to the electronic computer——

In connection with income tax.

——placed at the disposal of the Revenue Commissioners. Let me quote it ?

An electronic computer to enable the system of one taxpayer, one charge, to be brought into operation is expected to be supplied within the next few months.

Have those months expired yet ?

This was published in April, 1963. Surely the Deputy read it? Imagine a Deputy getting up to speak on the Budget without having read the White Paper. I am aghast.

The Minister will be more aghast before I sit down. Is there a comparison between the operations of this machine and the collection of these levies from the shopkeepers?

This electronic computer is an amazing wonder.

I wonder if this "wonder" could ever be employed to take over the Ministry of Finance?

And Justice.

We will leave Justice for a while to the humans.

The time will probably come when there will be a little black box sitting here.

Speed the day.

A black box over there and a white box over here.

I am sure the Minister will agree that we would not be unfair in describing the turnover tax as an inhuman tax, because this machine is not human. It is an inhuman tax. This machine will now assist the Minister in taking £3½ million in four months and a minimum of £12½ million in one year. That is with the wedge driven at its present depth, the 6d depth. That wedge can always be given another tap when the occasion arises.

The Minister would command the biggest house any speaker has got here for many a long day if he would explain to us in the course of his address how this computer can possibly do the work that has to be done in relation to the working out of this tax. That would be one of the most interesting dissertations the House has ever had the experience of hearing because the tax covers every item of apparel from the swaddling clothes for the child to the habit for the corpse. It is a pretty wide range.

I am glad the Deputy skipped some of the interim items.

It is a pretty extensive range. The tax covers also every single item people have to eat or drink and everything they do. There is one thing about this tax : it does not leave anything out. There may be one or two matters we cannot very well refer to. At any rate, the Minister appears to be satisfied that one per cent of the estimated income will be responsible for the collection of this tax. From that, I pose another question: What is wrong with insurance companies in this country? In the town in which I reside, there are at least ten full-time insurance collectors calling to the doors for a precise amount which is up in the dresser waiting for them to call—the 2/- a week or whatever it is. It takes ten full-time men, at least, to collect this money. Consider the cost to the companies that continue this antiquated system of engaging human beings when there is this £80,000 machine that could collect the premiums for the whole country. If it takes that number of insurance collectors to collect precise amounts from a much fewer number of people than it is intended to trap under the turnover tax, there must be many inefficient concerns operating in the country.

Have you ever seen your ESB bill ?

Yes, I have, and when I see it after 1st November, it will carry a turnover tax on it.

He asked for that one.

As the debate progresses, we are getting some illumination. Now it appears that there will be no inflation in the number of personnel engaged for the purposes of collecting this tax apart from the electricians who will be keeping the wheels turning in this miraculous machine.

Plugging it in.

That will not entail much cost. The plugging in being effectively done is the plugging in of 6d in the £ on everything one eats, everything one wears and everything one does. That is the kind of plugging in that the people are interested in. There will be very little consolation for them in knowing that one or two electrically-minded gentlemen in Dublin will be sufficient to collect the tax from the 40,000 traders, the 5,000 manufacturers, all the hotels, all the plumbers, all the barbers, all the taxi-drivers and everybody providing a service.

We certainly are travelling fast these days. I want to know what kind of job this computer will do in relation to items sold in particular shops. Take a confectioner, for instance. The Minister says that so long as he gets two and a half per cent on the full turnover, he does not mind if there are small items that are exempted, that the retailer is at liberty to put the tax on the dearer articles, that so long as he gets two and a half per cent he is happy. Despite Deputy Brennan's hopes, there are very few stores in this country that can bear any part of this two and a half per cent.

When Deputy Maurice Dockrell made the case that the business community were unable to meet this two and a half per cent tax Deputy Colley intervened to say they were not expected to bear any of it. That is fair enough. They have not got the miracle machine the Minister for Justice refers to. Individual employers will have to engage clerical assistance to keep their books in order. Widows or other people carrying on small businesses will have to keep books, many of them for the first time. This method of exacting tax will constitute for them an intolerable burden. There is no question about that.

These are people who are already adversely affected by the cut-price shops and mammoth stores that are now attracting people away from family concerns. These people were already in serious trouble. The activities of the rate collector were bearing heavily upon them. In the health area in which I reside, even the water rate charges this year have gone up by 50 per cent. These people generally do not come within the categories entitled to free medical attention. Their medical charges have been increased.

Having to overcome all these difficulties to the best of their ability, they will now be obliged, in addition, to do all this clerical work. Many of these people keep their shops open until the small hours of the morning if it is possible to earn a shilling, because there is a dance in the vicinity. They provide a service. Their hours are not regulated by any trade union. They have to make a few shillings in order to eke out a living. It will be particularly difficult for these people to maintain books in the conditions under which they operate.

Ninety-five per cent of all retail sales at the moment are already being returned to the Revenue Commissioners for income tax purposes.

That is 95 per cent of £450 odd millions ?

Yes. We are dealing with facts. Let us get the facts straight. All retailers responsible for 95 per cent of the retail business are already making returns to the Revenue Commissioners.

Ninety-five per cent of them in numbers?

No—in volume of business.

That is the point I am making. The volume of business runs to £450 million.

The Deputy said they will have to keep books for the first time.

Let me make the point arising out of the intervention of the Minister. Ninety-five per cent of £450 million worth of retail goods are returned to the Income Tax Commissioners.

In other words, they are already keeping books.

But there is five per cent of £450 million of retail goods which is not returned and that is distributed over thousands of small shopkeepers.

Most of these will be out, under the £100 provision.

But they will have to prove they are out. To prove they are out, they will have to keep books.

No—simple inspection.

Will this be spot inspection or at regular intervals, or what arrangement will be made? Will the computer travel down to do it, or who carries out the inspection?

The Deputy is just being silly.

No. We want to get to the root of this.

I am trying to help the Deputy.

I know the Minister is trying to help me and I appreciate his help but I want to know about the five per cent of the £450 odd millions worth of goods which are not returned to the Income Tax Commissioners and which are obviously goods sold in thousands of small trading shops that never kept a book until now.

Quite possibly.

They will now have to make returns. The Minister, of course, is satisfied that when they make returns and when he knows this proportion are sending their records to the Income Tax Commissioners, it will also guarantee that any of them that have not been sending in records before will be caught now by the income tax provisions, and judged on the turnover.

I want to go back to the specific commodities which we are told may be released from the exact provisions of the 2½ per cent. The Minister was the most positive of the Government speakers in this regard. He said :

The proceeds of the tax were to be used to reduce the rate of income tax. The first White Paper on Direct Taxation, in the course of a comment on this recommendation, said that a sales tax would not be inappropriate to the circumstances of this country, and, if the necessity were to arise for a major increase in taxation, it might become unavoidable.

He was not in love with the idea of a turnover tax all the time. Speaking about exemptions he said:

It is because the tax will apply to all retail sales, with the few exceptions indicated, that it is possible to have a rate as low as 6d in the £.

It is a quotation from the Minister's Budget Statement on 23rd August, 1963, as reported at column 86 of volume 202.

Is it 1962?

We will have to get a computer on the job.

I can manage this job without a computer. I have quoted from column 82 of the Official Report for the 23rd April, 1963. The second reference was from column 86 of the same volume. Deputies who spoke on the Government side and tried to imply that there will be extensive exemptions from this tax have another think coming.

Having made his dramatic announcement, the Minister relaxed for the evening, but the following day he intervened when Deputy O'Donnell was speaking from these benches in regard to the capacity of some shopkeepers to bear any increase in the cost of running their concerns. As the Minister for Justice said, there may be people who will not be required to pay more than 17/6d a month, if their turnover is only £100 a month, but we have to consider what the profit would be on such a turnover. There are varying views on that. While it was being discussed, there were two Ministers in the House. The Minister for Finance was here and the Minister for Social Welfare was sitting cheek by jowl with him when Deputy O'Donnell referred to the impact on many of these small shopkeepers. As reported at column 359 of the Official Report of 24th April, 1963, Deputy O'Donnell inquired:

Will the Minister say that a person with a small business is making more than five per cent?

Dr. Ryan: Yes. They are making 20 per cent at least, and some of them are making more.

I do not know how many Deputies are engaged in the grocery trade, but is there any Deputy who is under the delusion that there is 20 per cent profit in any one of the little grocery shops? Would they have ten per cent profit?

They would not, but the Minister for Finance said it was 20 per cent, and sitting beside him was the Minister for Social Welfare who determines the non-contributory old age pension claims of small shopkeepers, and he concurred that it was at least 20 per cent. Is it any wonder that when appeals come to the local committees to be determined——

Acting Chairman

The Deputy should not discuss old age pensions and pensions committees on this Resolution.

Quite, but the Chair will appreciate that they impact themselves on the Budget to the extent that the Minister seems to be under the impression that there is 20 per cent and more profit on the sale of these goods. Is it any wonder that Deputies who support the Government seem to be under the impression that the business community can carry this 2½ per cent tax? What is 2½ per cent out of 20 per cent?

What is the net profit on cigarettes?

On cigarettes?

For the sake of argument.

I am not interested in the net profit on cigarettes. I know Miss Martin's little shop in Limerick and I know her impressions at the moment about what she will have to pay.

She will still vote for you people.

Acting Chairman

Let us forget about Miss Martin.

Whom will she support? Was she not a nominator of the Parliamentary Secretary?

About whom is the Deputy talking?

There will be many of these creatures throughout the country trying to exist on a profit of less than ten per cent. If there is a profit on cigarettes, with the operation of the cut-price shops, even if one doubled one's smoking capacity, what proportion of the turnover would cigarettes account for? Is butter not more important in any shop?

I will bet the Deputy a "fiver" to a penny that there is not a penny increase on the lb of butter.

You are on.

This is becoming more and more interesting.

Acting Chairman

I am afraid it is out of order.

The longer this goes on, the more reliefs there will be.

Did the Deputy take the bet?

I did. I have him on.

We could send an usher over for the "fiver".

No doubt the Minister will collect an extra 2½ per cent tax on it.

Acting Chairman

Will the Deputy proceed?

There was nothing at Punchestown today as inviting as that offer. You do not have to leave the House to get on a good thing. I am delighted at the opportunity because it is clear that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance is at variance with the Minister in regard to the provisions of the Budget. The Minister made it quite clear that a 2½ per cent tax would be imposed per £ of turnover. That is 6d. in the £. The cost of a lb. of butter goes up therefore by a penny. If the Parliamentary Secretary was aware what the profit is in the retail trade on the handling of butter, he would realise that it cannot bear an increase of a penny.

The bet is on?

The bet is on.

A " fiver" to a penny, and not five lbs of butter either.

No, £5 sterling. The price of tea will go up by 1½d. I want to see if there are any more opportunities of making money on the side.

Acting Chairman

I do not know if the Deputy is in order in going through the whole list of commodities.

This is all for the Dublin North-East by-election.

It is good stuff. That is why Deputy Burke was shivering last night at the thought of going out of office. We know that it will have a tremendous effect on the by-election. Surely, Sir, the exaction of a turnover tax of 2½ per cent in this Budget can be referred to and its effect on every single commodity.

Acting Chairman

The Deputy may refer to it in a general way.

I contend that under this system of taxation, there will be an incentive to profiteering and there is no provision for supervision of profiteers by this miracle machine inasmuch as we have been told that the tax need not be imposed on the bottle of milk, the loaf of bread, the reel of thread, or the liquorice allsorts; the Minister for Social Welfare says he feels the intelligent retailer will make every effort to avoid increasing the price of essential commodities and will instead increase the price of items purchased mainly by the better off sections in order to meet this tax. That will interfere, of course, with the normal good relationship that exists between the retailer and his customers because the shopkeeper will be obliged, according to the Minister for Social Welfare, to put the levy on the alleged better off people in order to meet the tax on the ice-cream cone the child going out the door has just bought.

I asked earlier what the position would be in the case of confectioners. Confectionery is not sold in bulk. How will the confectioner recover this 2½ per cent on the two or three buns the child purchases? Confectioners do not engage in any other business. If their turnover is taxed, how will they recover? Will they have to pile it on to the wedding cake, increasing the price by 50 per cent in order to recoup themselves on the smaller items? According to the argument advanced by the Minister for Social Welfare, that is what they will do.

How will stationers be affected ? Will the proof be the delivery from the printers or magazine wholesalers ? These people are already paying 2d or 3d on imported magazines. Many of these are non-returnable. If you go behind the counter in a stationer's you will see bundles tied up for despatch to some hospital or institution, bundles of non-returnable unsold magazines and periodicals. Will this computer inspect behind their counters, write off the non-returnable and charge only on what was actually bought over the counter? These matters are agitating the minds of thousands of traders all over the country.

They will be dealt with by the Minister on the Finance Bill.

Only a few questions were put to the Minister last week on the Financial Resolution and he was not at all too anxious to answer them. This proposal by the Minister and the Government has created the utmost confusion, distress and dismay. The Minister for Finance is under the impression that these people have a profit of 20 per cent. That is the appalling part of it; he framed this Budget on the basis that there is 20 per cent profit and he must have had it in mind that these people could well afford to carry the 2½ per cent without passing it on to the consumer. That bubble has been burst and this tax is now clearly an increase in the cost of living. It is tantamount to one week's wages in the year from the ordinary working man. It is tantamount to the profit on a beast where the ordinary small farmer is concerned.

We are indebted to Deputy Donegan for pressing the Minister hard and evoking a slight concession; if you can prove the fertilisers you purchase are to go into capital, you will be exempted. Who will examine the load of fertiliser leaving the shop in order to determine the proportion that will go into capital by way of improving grassland and the proportion that will go into conversion into crops which will be sold and will, therefore, be subject to a tax of 2½ per cent? We want the answers to these questions. They should have been answered before the House voted on the Financial Resolution implementing this proposal last week.

The Taoiseach, apparently in an effort to steal some of the thunder of the Labour Party, announced piously last week that the Government were now leaning to the left, like the Tower of Pisa. I saw a report that the tower has taken on some more crooked leanings, but, as far as this country is concerned, it is leaning to the left; all we wish is that the Government will lean far enough to the left, to the right, backwards and forwards as to overturn so that the country can be provided with a Government that will bring to all sections some measure of justice, a measure of justice that is not included in the Budget provisions this year.

It is not unnatural, I suppose, that most of the discussion on the Budget has been on the turnover tax. I should like to assure the House that before deciding on this tax, the Government gave the most careful consideration to every aspect of the matter and examined it in the greatest possible detail. The arguments in favour of this particular tax were overwhelming. Apart altogether from the immediate necessity to bridge the budgetary gap this year, it was obvious for some time that the whole basis of our tax structure was fundamentally unsound. We had a situation here where the financial viability of the State was to a very great extent dependent on the consumption of drink and tobacco. That was undoubtedly a very undesirable and unhealthy position. I have, indeed, a distinct recollection of hearing Deputy Sweetman deplore that position and urge very strongly that something should be done about it. We had a position in which the Minister for Finance each year had no alternative but fervently to hope that people would drink and smoke more.

Deputy Dr. Browne has often adverted to this aspect of our finances and on a number of occasions he has been very critical both of the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Health because of it. Now that the Government have decided to do something about this undesirable position about which he has often complained one could have reasonably expected that Deputy Dr. Browne would have supported us in our efforts in that regard. However, I suppose that was a bit too much to expect.

Apart from the social implications of this excessive Exchequer reliance on drink and tobacco, it is, from the fiscal point of view, a highly dangerous situation to be in. All those who have taken an interest in these matters in recent years have been of the opinion that something should be done about it and that an effort would have to be made to broaden the tax base. Not alone did financial prudence dictate such a change but social justice required that it should be of the greatest possible nature. With these considerations in mind, the Government had an examination made of the tax structures in practically every European country and, in particular, they had the sales taxes in force in Britain, West Germany, Austria, Sweden and France examined in detail. This examination pointed clearly and inevitably to the introduction of a turnover tax on the broadest possible base.

The advantages of a turnover tax on the broadest possible base are obvious. First of all, if the tax is sufficiently broadly based, a fairly low rate of tax will suffice, causing the least possible amount of difficulty to the less well-off sections of the community. It is undoubtedly the fairest possible type of tax. It is easy to administer and cheap and effective in its operation and, with the aid of the new electronic equipment which has been referred to in the White Paper on direct taxation, it will cost very little to collect.

There is nothing secret about this new equipment. The Revenue Commissioners have, for some considerable time, been preparing for its introduction and, in fact, as pointed out in the White Paper, its delivery is expected within the next few months. This equipment was arranged for in the first instance as a means of procuring economies and increased efficiency in the administration of the income tax code and the introduction of a "one taxpayer, one charge" system. But these modern electronic computers are most comprehensive in their range and I understand from the Minister for Finance that his estimates of the cheapness of the collection of this turnover tax are based on the use of this computer.

Another advantage of this turnover tax is that it will be able to make a solid contribution to our finances this year. As Deputies know, it is proposed to introduce it on 1st November next and, in addition, it will be fully and effectively in operation in the following financial year. A further advantage is that it is an important preliminary step from the point of view of bringing our fiscal and tax structure into line with that of the other European countries in the light of our possible forthcoming association with them.

It can, in addition, be a very useful mechanism in relation to the comprehensive policy for incomes on which the Government are working and which it is hoped to get accepted by all sections of our people. As the Taoiseach has already announced, the Government are working towards a comprehensive plan for the fair and equitable distribution of the additions to the pool of national wealth as they are brought about. Any policy for economic development must be comprehensive and it must win the greatest possible measure of agreement from all sections of the people. In order to set predetermined targets for economic growth, it is necessary to secure the greatest possible degree of co-ordination in the different sectors of economic activity.

If we can get this new comprehensive policy accepted by all concerned and working soundly, it will mark us out as a community destined to succeed in its economic objectives, a community which is determined to manage its affairs in a rational and intelligent way for the benefit of all sections equally. A steady flow of revenue into the Exchequer without regard to changes in habit or consumption patterns, such as this turnover tax will provide is a vitally important element in the sort of comprehensive plan proposed.

Everyone will realise the great difficulties in the way of such a comprehensive programme being worked out and accepted by all concerned but the possibility of having such a comprehensive programme in operation is such an exciting prospect and so obviously beneficial that it will, I am sure, evoke a high degree of co-operation and enthusiasm on all sides. I would be very sanguine that if we can propound such a policy in concrete terms, with predetermined rates of growth in the national economy, the benefits of which will be regularly passed on to all sections of the community, we will succeed in getting the co-operation on a national scale which will be necessary to get it into operation.

When the Government examined the budgetary situation this year, it was quite clear that, despite the most detailed, exhaustive and thorough pruning of all Government expenditure, the overall Budget deficit this year was one which could not be bridged by traditional methods.

Apart altogether from the undesirability, to which I have referred, of continuing to rely on a narrow tax base, it was obvious that the existing sources of taxation could not possibly produce the total amount of revenue required in the coming year. If that is accepted, as I think it must be, then there is no alternative to the turnover tax proposed. If the Opposition accept, as I think they must, that some new source of revenue had to be devised and if they are against a turnover tax as we propose, then they must tell us what alternative they would use.

It was clear that traditional resources could not meet the bill. That bill had been pruned to the greatest possible degree so that the inevitability of some new source of taxation had to be faced. After a thorough examination of all other possible methods of taxation, the Government decided on this form of turnover tax. If the Opposition claim we are wrong in proposing this form of taxation, then let them tell us what they would propose. It is only fair to ask them, if they object to our methods of bridging the gap, what method they would have used. I suggest they will not be able to do so. Because, in fact, when all the factors and all the circumstances are examined, it will be found that the solution we have propounded is the only one possible.

During the last week or so, in talking to my constituents, whether wage or salary earners or business people, I found there is a wide acceptance, in principle, of this new turnover tax. So far as I have been able to assess public reaction, the discussion has centred more on the methods by which the tax will be operated than on the merits of the tax itself. On its merits, the tax is fairly widely and generally accepted as reasonable and fair. Most of the people to whom I spoke are concerned more with the technical aspect and with the question of how exactly it will operate in different circumstances and how it will affect different businesses. I admit there is a certain amount of anxiety among traders and business people as to the manner in which it will operate in their particular circumstances and of the difficulties of administration it will cause them. I want to assure Deputies that the great majority of the fears which have been expressed are absolutely groundless.

This type of tax has been in operation for many years in a great number of European countries. It works simply, effectively and successfully and has been doing so in those countries for years. There are no insoluble difficulties associated with it. It will not come into operation until 1st November next and between now and then, the Minister for Finance has promised that all the interests concerned will be fully consulted. As the Parliamentary Secretary said a moment ago, all the questions will be answered and I have no doubt that all the difficulties which people see at the moment will be ironed out.

It is the intention of the Government to work in the closest co-operation with the business community in getting this tax implemented. An indication of our thinking in this regard has already been given in the announcement which the Minister for Finance has made to the effect that the huckster shop will, to a large extent, be exempted from the scope of the tax in so far as it will pay only a fixed monthly contribution. That sort of arrangement is an indication that the Government are approaching this tax in a most realistic and reasonable way. We are determined that it will be put into operation with the minimum possible amount of inconvenience for the business people and the traders concerned.

To ensure that this tax will operate smoothly and with the minimum amount of trouble is as much in the interests of the Government as it is in the interests of the business community. I am quite certain that when these discussions have been held and when the difficulties and the problems involved are considered, we shall be able to arrive at a satisfactory system which will work to the satisfaction of all. Indeed I can say that one of the factors which weighed with the Government in favour of this type of turnover tax as against any of the other taxes proposed was the fact that it was comparatively simple to operate from the point of view of the individual trader and businessman and will result in the least possible amount of administrative difficulty from his point of view.

I am sorry there is no member of the Labour Party present because I am genuinely puzzled about the attitude of the Labour Party in this matter, and more particularly by their attitude as indicated by their candidate for the by-election in Dublin North-East, Mr. Denis Larkin, formerly a Deputy of this House. He seems to me to be waging a consistent campaign against the introduction of this turnover tax. For a Labour candidate to adopt that attitude is quite inexplicable to me. We know that in practically every country in Europe where this tax is it has been introduced and operated by Labour Governments so that our Labour Party seems to be out of step with the general line of Labour Party thinking in other countries.

It is obvious why the Labour Parties in the various countries of Europe favour this tax. As has been pointed out, this is the fairest possible type of tax. It is a tax on expenditure and the person in a position to spend most pays most. Indeed in our country to-day, with the introduction of PAYE and with so many of our wage and salary earners now paying income tax, we would certainly have expected that the Labour Party would have plumped for this tax as against any increase in income tax under PAYE. I genuinely feel the Labour Party must be under some misapprehension in this matter and that they have not quite understood its implications. I can readily imagine that Mr. Denis Larkin will be prepared in a by-election campaign to use any stick he can find to beat the Government but I have always thought the Labour Party——

Is this in order ?

The turnover tax has been discussed.

Is it in order to discuss a candidate in North-East Dublin and his campaign?

I am talking about the Labour Party policy in regard to this turnover tax.

The Minister is speaking about a candidate for North-East Dublin.

I am using him as an instance.

A convenient instance.

A convenient instance of their thinking. I think he is under a misapprehension. However, I shall ignore the candidate in Dublin North-East if it will please Deputy Donegan.

Surely there is a convention not to criticise people who are not present ?

I have never heard of such a convention.

I always obey it.

Not to criticise people who are not present?

By name.

That is a new one on me.

We have privilege here. We cannot be sued.

I have no wish to pursue the matter any further.

He might be second in the race.

I have been endeavouring to indicate I would welcome some clarification from the Labour Party of their general attitude to this tax. It seems to be one which they should favour if they purport to represent, in the main, the interests of the wage and salary earner and the less well off sections of the community.

I think the social service provisions of the Budget have been widely welcomed. As Deputies know, it is the declared policy of this Government, a policy to which we have been consistently adhering for many years now, to improve our social welfare services and the position of those in receipt of these benefits at regular intervals in so far as the financial position makes it possible to do so. We have adhered to that policy down through the years and we have done so again on this occasion.

We realise that the State has a special obligation to care for the needs of the less well off sections. Indeed, we believe that apart from increases which are necessary in our social services to make sure that these sections of the community share in any advances in national prosperity there is still a case for bringing the whole level of social welfare benefits to a higher level than they are at present. We realise they compare unfavourably with those of other neighbouring countries. It is our intention not alone to see them increased step by step with other sectors but, where possible, to ensure that, in relation to the community as a whole, they are improved from time to time in an overall fashion.

Deputy O'Sullivan referred to the increase in corporation profits tax. I want to point out that it has been the consistent policy of this Government and of the present Minister for Finance, in so far as circumstances permitted, to reduce direct taxation on incomes and profits. That policy has successfully and consistently been pursued in previous years and substantial reductions have been effected. That policy is a sound one in so far as it is true that there is probably no more direct incentive one can make to economic expansion than a reduction in direct taxation in this way and it was with reluctance that the Government faced this increase in corporation profits tax because, to some extent, it ran counter to the policy which we have been pursuing for years of endeavouring to bring about a reduction in the overall level of direct taxation on industry. There are a couple of aspects of this matter to which I would like to refer.

It is true that over recent years company profits have increased considerably. If some increase had to be made in direct taxation then there was no point at which that increase could be imposed with less hardship and with less disincentive effect than on company profits in the form of corporation profits tax. It can, of course, be argued that any increase in taxation, particularly on company profits, is ultimately a bad thing because it is out of these profits that industry must seek to provide new equipment, to finance expansion, and so on. That argument has a certain validity but to a large extent it does not apply in our present circumstances because we have established a scheme of grants and loans whereby moneys can be made available on very favourable terms to trade and industry to finance reorganisation and re-equipment and to make themselves more efficient and to put themselves into a better position to face competition in the conditions of freer trade into which we are inevitably moving. To that extent, the imposition of this increase in corporation profits tax need not have any disadvantageous effects so far as industry is concerned because, instead of providing for expansion and re-equipment out of their own profits, industrialists will be able to come to the various institutions concerned and seek assistance and aid in any plans or programmes which they may have in this regard. The necessary machinery has been established for this purpose and, indeed, I think a number of industrial concerns have already availed of these provisions.

In this connection also, it is relevant to refer to our reasonably generous wear and tear allowances and the incentives to our export industries. In most cases profits accruing from export activity are completely free of either income tax or corporation profits tax. Therefore, whereas it undoubtedly represents a certain increase in direct taxation, and to that extent has some element of disincentive effect, nevertheless I think that the increase in CPT will to a large extent be cushioned by these factors to which I have referred.

The fact that the statistics of the capital Budget have been published in a separate paper this year underlines how important this aspect of the Budget has now become. It is obvious also I think that in the years ahead as economic expansion continues, a great deal more emphasis will be placed on and importance attached to the capital side of our Budgets. The current Budget, of course, is of vital importance in the short term in determining the level and the pace of economic activity and, indeed, in regulating all the various questions of social justice which fall to be settled at Budget time.

In our situation, however, I think it is true to say that it is the capital Budget which is ultimately of by far the greatest importance. As a developing economy, faced with a considerable under-employment of our resources and having a vital necessity to achieve a fundamental and far-reaching expansion of the economy, the essential thing in our case is to achieve the maximum possible amount of sound productive investment. It is only in this way that the growth rate which has been established as the national target for the next five-year programme of economic development can be achieved. Permanent long term development can only be achieved by a well planned programme of capital expenditure. The first White Paper on the programme for economic expansion clearly acknowledged the truth of that proposition.

For each year of the five year period of the Programme, specific annual programmes of public capital expenditure were laid down, because of course in our circumstances it is to the public sector in the main we must look in this regard. The White Paper published in 1958 envisaged that over the five year period 1959/60 to 1963/64 public capital expenditure would amount to approximately £220 million. The actual total expended will be in the region of £295 million or a yearly average of practically £60 million.

In view of the criticism of the increase in the public debt which has been made by the Opposition, it is important to have a look at the way in which that £295 million will have been invested by the time the first five year period of economic expansion ends at the end of this financial year. This will help to illustrate further how far the directive principle of the White Paper of giving priority to productive capital investment has been realised in this five year period. It also will be a very valuable guide in helping us to settle the estimates and targets to be set out in the second Programme to be published later this year.

The total of £295 million was invested roughly as follows. What may be loosely described as social purposes absorbed £77 million; productive capital expenditure on agriculture totalled £70 million; fuel and power absorbed £48 million; transport and communications, £40 million: industry, £34 million; harbours, airports and tourism generally, £12 million. Approximately £9 million was expended on developing forestry and fisheries, and miscellaneous purposes absorbed the balance of £5 million. It is clear from this analysis of the figures that the directive principle laid down in the first White Paper was adhered to. The figures show clearly that our public capital expenditure programme was in fact heavily weighted in favour of productive investment.

The second Programme for Economic Expansion, as the Taoiseach has indicated, is now being drafted. It will be published this year. The figures I have just given will have to be carefully considered in the framing of the second programme. It would seem from the figures that public capital expenditure at an average rate of £60 million a year equated with an annual average growth rate in the economy of somewhere between four and four and a half per cent over the five year period. In the preparation of the second programme we will have to consider whether we can assume that that equation will continue to apply in the next five year period—an equation of an average capital expenditure in the public sector of £60 million per year with a growth of from four to four and a half per cent in the economy—or whether it will be necessary for us to increase the overall total invested; whether better results could be gained by a reallocation of the total amount within the existing headings or whether new outlets not hitherto incorporated in our list will have to be found for productive investment.

The fact that public capital expenditure, strongly weighted in favour of productive investment, will reach a total of almost £300 million for the five year period represents to my mind a magnificent achievement in our particular circumstances. It is undoubtedly this high level of public capital expenditure which was in the main responsible for the satisfactory success achieved by the programme as a whole.

So far it has been possible to provide the necessary capital for our public investment programme without any great difficulty, but that is a situation to which a great deal of care and thought will have to be given in the future. We will have to have regard to two aspects of the situation. First, there will be the question of raising the necessary capital to finance our programmes of public capital expenditure, and raising that capital in the most advantageous and economic way. In addition, in settling the manner in which the public programme is to be financed, it will be necessary for us to have regard to and consider the needs and requirements of the private sector.

At present the gross total of savings available for investment in the community is in the region of £130 million a year. Expenditure in the public sector in 1963/64 is estimated to be in the region of £80 million. It will be readily seen that the public capital programme bites very heavily into the total volume of savings available. We can, of course, expect as national income expands and productivity increases that more money will automatically be available to finance investments in the private sector. It has however been true of our situation up to now that we had to rely in the main on the public sector to give us the volume of capital expenditure needed and if we can bring about a situation here where there would actually be a pressure of money seeking profitable outlets for investment in the private sector, it would be enormously advantageous from the point of view of the economy as a whole. Indeed, a welcome development in that regard, as the figures show this year, is the extent to which a number of our public enterprises are able to finance expansion out of their internal resources. Of course, there are many factors to be taken into account in that regard and it is important that we should not place too heavy a burden on these public enterprises or limit the scope of their freedom of action. Any number of factors must be taken into account in fixing their capital programmes but it is encouraging to see in a number of cases that these public concerns have been able to finance profitable productive capital expenditure from their own resources.

Some members of the Opposition have been critical of the increase in the State debt. In my opinion, there are no grounds whatever for that criticism. As I have said, productive capital investment is an absolutely vital necessity for a developing economy like ours. Up to now it has been to the public sector we have had to look for the main effort in this regard both as regards actual direct investment itself from public sources and investment which supplements private investment as in the case of industrial grants, grants to increase agricultural efficiency and so on. To say our public debt has increased by so many millions and no more and to regard that as a criticism of the financial policy of the Government is just simply not valid. It is quite clear from the figures that our real position in regard to the State debt has not deteriorated in recent years.

There are a great many tests which one could apply to determine whether or not this is so. There are a number of analyses of the situation that one can make. However, the simplest possible test I can think of is to look at the total amount of State debt in relation to the national income. If we go back to 1958, the year immediately preceding the inauguration of the Programme for Economic Expansion, we find that at 31st March 1958 the total State debt, including capitalised liabilities, sinking funds and the other capital funds, was £431 million compared with a national income for the preceding year, 1957, of £467 million. Before the Programme for Economic Expansion got under way therefore there was that rough correspondence between the total State debt and the national income, £431 million and £467 million respectively.

I should say, of course, that there is a large amount of artificiality about that total figure of State liabilities because, as Deputies will realise, in order to get a valid assessment of what the State's balance sheet is really like, one must take into account the various investments which the State holds in different companies, repayable advances and so on. It is necessary, further, to analyse these carefully and see which of them can be regarded as real assets and which of them should in fact be written off. Then ultimately one arrives at a total which represents the net debt of the State, that is taking its assets into account. Having said that, however, I think the figures I am taking are all right for the purposes for which I am using them, namely, to arrive at some basis of comparison between two different dates.

When we come to 31st March this year, we find that the total debt, measured on the same basis as I have taken for 1958, was £636 million. That compares with a national income for 1962 of £632 million so that in effect there has been no significant deterioration in the situation. Now I admit, as I said at the beginning, that this is a very rough and ready indicator but I think it is sufficient for my purpose to illustrate that the overall financial position of the State in regard to its capital position has not deteriorated in the five years which have elapsed since 1958. The significant thing is that we have been able in that five-year period to expend about £300 million, most of it heavily weighted in favour of productive investment, without in any way impairing the general structure of the capital position.

One of the recent decisions of the Government which have been particularly welcome to me has been the decision to establish the National Building Advisory Council. When I say it is particularly welcome to me, I am speaking as a Deputy for my own constituency. As we all know, the building industry at present is experiencing an all-time high level of activity. There is a great deal of work on hands and generally speaking conditions throughout the industry are extremely favourable. But we all know the history of the building industry. I do not want to be political but we do know that it was subject in the past to particularly violent fluctuations, and that as the State has or has not been able to make capital available, then the industry either prospered or suffered. I think it is vitally important that we should make an assessment of the situation and try to put the industry, which is a vitally important national industry, on a stable basis and that we should get away from the procession of booms and slumps which has to a large extent prevailed up to now.

It has been heartbreaking to us all, in our capacity as Deputies for different constituencies, to see the building industry come to a sudden stop and large numbers of skilled operatives emigrate, many of them forever as has happened in the past. If we could rectify that situation and bring about stability in the industry with no violent fluctuations so that the level of activity could be kept maintained from year to year and the jobs of all concerned made secure, then we would be doing a very good day's work not alone for the people in the industry but for the whole national economy. I hope that good results will flow from the decisions to establish this National Building Advisory Council. Its terms of reference are wide and comprehensive and I would hope that through its operations we will finally get away from this situation which I have described and which has from time to time brought so much unmerited disaster on so many unfortunate families.

I want to say, in conclusion, that this Budget cannot be considered in isolation. It is simply one further step in the general implementation of the social and economic policy of this Government. That policy is devoted to securing the maximum possible amount of economic expansion and to ensuring, as I have said, that the fruits and benefits of that expansion are passed on in the most equitable possible fashion to all the different sections of our community. Both aspects of this matter have equally engaged the attention of the Government both in the preparation of this Budget and in the framing of their policies generally. We believe that economic growth and social justice must go hand in hand and as the benefits of growth in the national economy become available, they must be passed on to all sections of our people in an equitable and just fashion.

I think it is true to say that we have always been looked on as the Party which can be relied on for good, sound, prudent management of the nation's finances. In this Budget, we are continuing to merit that trust. It provides all the necessary machinery and incentives for the expanding economy, which is our aim. It meets all our current obligations; it meets the requirements of social justice in so far as we can possibly do so; and it effects a fundamental and far-reaching change in the basis of our tax structure, which will be of enormous benefit in the years ahead.

The Minister for Justice opened his speech by stating that our tax structure was on a narrow base and that the arguments were overwhelmingly in favour of a turnover tax. We have heard all that before. Indeed, he said that Deputy Sweetman, on this side of the House, had said largely, in principle, the same sort of thing. If that is true, and I seem to remember that myself also, that does not mean that the only alternative was a turnover tax or that the only alternative was the type of Budget we now have before us. It is quite unfair for the Minister for Justice to say to the Opposition: "You should now tell us what you would do." That is rather like Deputy Burke who comes in here every year at Budget time and says: "You went up the steps and you voted against social service increases", not mentioning, of course, that Deputies voted on the same occasion against all the impositions.

It is not our job to say what we would do. Even if one were to admit, which I do not admit, that the revenue the Fianna Fáil Government wish to raise is necessary, there are many ways of raising it besides the type of iniquitous tax and the other measures that have been instituted.

The Minister for Justice, similarly, mentioned the figure of nearly £300 million spent over five years on the capital side of the Budget. He said it was heavily weighted in favour of productive investment. I am beginning to wonder whether or not this productive investment, if it is bearing any fruit, is bearing the sort of fruit that means that the plain people of Ireland have their noses against the glass looking through the window from outside and that a certain small number of other people gather all the fruits in the heated atmosphere inside. Because, if one is to take the real benefits to the Irish nation over the past five years in terms of real increased emoluments —in other words, if you increase the wages, you have to take into account the increase in the cost of living, the amount of increased employment—one finds that Fianna Fáil, who have been in power now for six years, have failed abysmally in all the things they said they would do. When out of office, they produced in a supplement to the Irish Press of Wednesday, 15th October, 1955, the announcement of their Programme of Economic Expansion. I quote from page 2 of that supplement from a speech given by the present Taoiseach, who was then shadow Minister for Industry and Commerce. The heading of this paragraph is “100,000 new jobs after 5 years”. I quote:

It will be noted that in the first year of the proposed programme, it is contemplated that public investment outlay will be expanded by £13 million, raising national expenditure by £20 million and creating 20,000 new jobs. No contribution from the private sector is reckoned in this year.

In the second year, it is assumed that gross national expenditure is again increased by £20 million bringing the total increase to £40 million with a corresponding effect on employment and that this will result from £18 million increase in private capital outlay plus £15 million of further public expenditure, adding £22 million.

In the third year, a further rise in gross expenditure by £20 million is assumed (making the cumulative increase £60 million) to which the additional private capital outlay of the previous year is reckoned to contribute £18 million, and new private capital outlay a further £20 million, increased public expenditure being kept at £17 million.

By the fifth year, on this calculation, full employment should be achieved, with the level of gross expenditure raised by £100 million, and 100,000 new jobs created.

What has been the result of six years of Fianna Fáil administration? Three hundred thousand people have emigrated and there are fewer people in employment today than there were when that supplement was produced. It is all very well for the Minister for Justice to come in here and airily give us a set of statistician's figures. If I were to quote his own profession, I would say "a set of accountant's figures." The things that matter are whether or not the plain people of Ireland have better emoluments, a higher standard of living and whether or not they have more jobs. By both these sliderules, Fianna Fáil stand condemned.

This Budget was condemned at the beginning, even the day before it was introduced or the day after Budget day, for many reasons. One of them was that it was the year in which there were disgraceful Budget leaks for which only the Cabinet could be responsible. Nothing but an inspired leak could have given the Irish Times of Tuesday, 23rd April, the following information. I quote from page one:

The new sales tax, it is believed, will be of the order of 2½ or 3 per cent, which would bring in about £11 million in a full year.

The Minister will preface his Budget by reviewing the nation's economy and declare the overall aim of a 4 per cent increase yearly on the gross national product.

It is expected that the sales tax will be widely based and may include all of the 50,000 retail establishments in the country. It almost certainly will be applied at the retail level ...

The Irish Times quoted several different alternatives— in fact they could not be wrong—on some date.

Deputy Noel Lemass made an unqualified withdrawal of certain allegations yesterday and I do not want to raise that matter again but in relation to Budget leaks, he might have picked some other part of my speech to intervene, having regard to his public withdrawal yesterday of his accusation on a previous occasion. We all know, of course, that you cannot slip a cork in the Fianna Fáil Party but he is up to tell Papa.

There was a pre-Budget speech made by the Taoiseach in which he produced, again, one of his five year plans but whereas in Clery's Restaurant in 1956 he spoke of jobs and investment, now he has decided to be a little more fluid. He realises that things have caught up with him. Now he talks of £30 million per year increase in incomes. I wonder how does that relate to a wage pause as suggested in the White Paper? How does that relate to what perhaps is an inspired statement by the principal officer of Aer Lingus that there must be a complete wage pause there? Does the Taoiseach feel that his statement about £30 million per year will cod anybody? He realises, of course, that creeping inflation over five years—the way they are going, it will not be creeping; it will be galloping—will look after his £30 million a year and that in real standards of living and real return for work done, the Irish people will be worse off, and not better off. We have got the other five year plan but there is not the slightest chance that the Taoiseach will cod the Irish people for a second time. I think I have successfully shown that on the first occasion he did cod them and got back to office on the strength of it.

There is a provision in this Budget whereby ordinary income tax will be charged on the letting of land. I should like to say something in relation to this. There are decades in the life of a family when it is necessary to let the farm, to keep it for a young boy growing up who is not old enough to farm it. Even in my own parish, I could mention three, four or five such instances. The basis on which this tax will be levied is, according to the Minister's speech, gross rents from the farm or property, less rates and maintenance. There are many costs in relation to a farm let on the 11 months system, or on any other system, besides rates and maintenance. There is the herding of animals on the land. There is the cost of the various things that have to be bought if you want to increase the fertility of the land.

Will the Minister allow the person letting land to charge against the income tax that will be levied the purchase of fertilisers to increase the productivity of the land? Will he regard that as something the landowner is doing for the purpose of getting a higher rent the following year or will he allow it by a deduction? I could probably mention five or ten other things which will bear heavily on old people, but I shall go no further than to say to the Minister that I want to know from him whether or not he will take such things into account.

There is a precedent here and I want to register the strong opposition of this Party to the precedent being created. This is the first time farmers will be asked to pay income tax. I want to record the difference between a farmer and anyone else. The difference between a farmer and anyone else in relation to income tax is quite simple, but it is not often adverted to. A farmer pays rates on his house; he pays rates on his buildings; and then he pays rates on his land. It is almost as if a shopkeeper paid rates on his stock in trade on his shelves. It is almost as if a person who had a salary paid income tax, and then paid a second tax on the total amount of the salary before there is any deduction for living expenses or any other allowance.

As I see it, this is a dangerous precedent. The farmer who is not working his own land—usually through ill-health or age—is now asked to pay income tax after he has paid rates thereon. Remember he also pays rates on his residence and on his outbuildings. If he has a garage, he pays rates on it. He pays rates on the land that provides his income and, having paid his rates, the Fianna Fáil Party now ask him to pay income tax as well. That is the dangerous precedent that is being established.

The question of bank deposits was not referred to by the Minister for Justice and no one would know as much about it, in his own profession, as he. I believe that was a stupid decision because, if the truth were told, the Government have benefited quite a lot, if not from hot money, certainly from warm money. The coffers have been kept full because of the fact that there have been large deposits of money in the commercial banks. Of course the commercial banks must be limited in the amount of overdraft accommodation and loans they give in various ways by the amount of deposits they hold.

A banker in one of the largest banks in the country gave me the figure of deposits in that bank at the moment. The amount on deposit is £110 million and the advances stand at between £55 million and £60 million. That is a safe situation. He expects to lose one-fifth of his deposits and it is quite clear that if he loses one-fifth of his deposits, the amount of advances must go down. If the amount of advances to ordinary business firms would go down by the same percentage, one would think that there would be perhaps £10 million or £11 million less for loans, but that is not so.

The Government also borrow from the commercial banks by guaranteeing, principally to State companies, loans which are then given by the commercial banks. They will not be reduced. No one could imagine that a situation could arise in which a Government decision would be made that Aer Lingus could borrow under a Government guarantee another £5 million, and that the banks would say: "No." The whole financial structure indicates that the banks would not say : "No." That leaves less for the ordinary commercial operator.

New firms coming into this country seem to get money pretty easily from Government sources. The Industrial Credit Company rush to give them money because they will employ 20 or 200 people. Everyone rushes to give the money if they are good people. I am in favour of that, but whatever the Government may say and they keep insisting it is just as easy for an existing firm to get loans or grants for expansion, the fact is that it is not as easy because experience has proved that old-established firms who are carrying on and employing people find it hard to get loans from Government sources. They have to fall back on the commercial banks. The Government are now creating a situation where deposits will flow out, and when they have flown out, the Government will still continue to borrow from the commercial banks in the way I have described and so reduce by a colossal amount the money available to commercial firms.

If one turns to page 6 of the publication, Capital Budget, 1963, issued before the Budget, one finds in the last column, headed “Sources of Finance”, that for various items including the Agricultural Credit Corporation, the Shannon Free Airport Development Company, Ltd., Bord Iascaigh Mhara, Bord Ghaeltarra Éireann, Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann Teo., Irish Steel Holdings Ltd., Nítrigin Éireann Teo. and others, a figure of £8.68 million was borrowed from the commercial banks.

I have given the figure of £110 million on deposit and I have said that the banker expects to lose one-fifth of that, but he will be expected to give exactly what the Government ask for Government firms, leaving the ordinary commercial enterprise—the backbone of the country — with less overdraft accommodation. I think it is pretty well known what that will mean.

The turnover tax is characterised by one fact. It will be imposed on a vast number of decent, uninfluential citizens, and the job of collecting it is being given to them rather than to some well-known pals of the Taoiseach. That is what is being said in every street in this country and, in my opinion, that is true. Small tobacconists, small newsagents, small grocers, small people selling spares for bicycles, do not add up to an influential group. It is believed that they will not exert pressure on the Government and that they will not count for anything in the ballot boxes. I believe the Government are wrong, that they will exert pressure and that they will count very much in the ballot boxes. I believe the Government have made not only a dreadful financial mistake but a political mistake. But I think everybody knows why they made it. They had to pick those who would bear the brunt of the load. Everybody knows who Fianna Fáil's friends are and whom they would wish to bear the load. No other civilised community has imposed a tax on food, essential clothing, and——

Every European country has done so.

That is not so.

It certainly is so—every one of them.

It is a different type of tax.

It is not a different type at all.

We shall debate that on the Finance Bill. It is a different type of tax.

It is the same.

It is not, as this one is, imposed on food and essential items.

It is imposed on every single thing.

It is not.

I am telling the Deputy it is.

The Minister is wrong. In Britain, despite fantastic defence commitments and the fact that they had to pay for a war, there is no tax on essential items.

We are not bound to follow Britain.

This is not a matter of following Britain. This is a matter of getting away out in front. In Britain, people do not pay a tax on bread, butter, tea and sugar, on children's boots and shoes and clothing. There is no tax on the boy's suit or the girl's frock. There will be here. That is quite a step forward, is it not ?

I believe this is a cowardly sort of tax. It will be implemented in six months' time. Apparently the Government argue they will get the corporation profits tax now to keep them going. That is retrospective. In six months then, they will get this turnover tax. In the meantime, the Budget will have been forgotten. There will be a good deal of muddle. In the first six months, the grocers will lose half their profits.

And half their customers.

We hope not. This tax cannot be put on the cheap article. It will have to be put on the dear. The unfortunate retailer will have to argue as to what he will put on the dear article if he does not put it on the cheap. All these problems will mean that in the first six months there will be a considerable amount of money harvested by way of turnover tax. It will probably be next Budget time before the people have fully wakened up to all the implications of this sales and service tax. By that time it is the hope of the Government that, with a full year's sales tax ahead, they will be in a position to spend more, to go to the country and collect votes.

We need not go for another three years.

That may be the political purpose. I do not think it will work. I believe the people have wakened up to the implications of this. If some had not already wakened up, they will be very quickly informed by their grocer and——

By Fine Gael.

——and by Fine Gael. They will be told by Fine Gael that they will have to meet another 1/ - on the child's shoes, 1/6 on the boy's suit and 1½d. on tea. On a hair-do it will probably be 2d.

How much does a hair-do cost?

I have made my calculations. The Minister can make his own. Now, if a man earns £10 a week, or £520 a year, and if he spends £400 per year on ordinary retail commodities, he will in future find himself taxed on that £400 to the tune of one week's wages.

There are various views in the Government about this. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands ventilated one view both down the country and here in this House. I quote from today's Irish Independent:

What in fact would happen was that in the case of the necessaries of life there would be little if any increase, because of the highly competitive nature of the retail grocery business.

The Parliamentary Secretary's idea is apparently that the small grocer who stays open 16 hours a day will absorb this tax from his profits, which, at the moment, scarcely stand at five per cent. He will give half his income, in other words, to Fianna Fáil. That is what the Parliamentary Secretary thinks. That is what he believes will happen. I do not believe it will happen. It might happen for the first three or four months but, after that, the Government will find there will be an increase in the price of all the necessaries of life.

The farmer will pay a turnover tax. The Minister was questioned on the Financial Resolution in regard to this and he was a bit hazy; he said he would inquire. I hope he will give us an assurance now that the farmer will not be taxed 3/- on his barrel of seed, 10/- per ton on his high grade fertiliser, 3/- a stone on his grass seed, 15/- per ton on his pig meal, which is, in effect, 5/- per pig in the case of the small farmer who has to buy compounds. The farmer who can keep his own feeding barley to feed his pigs will pay no tax. I hope he will assure us that he will not pay tax on his farm machinery, whether that be a capital investment for the first time, or renewals, or repairs. Will the Minister assure us that tractor oil and fuel for commercial vehicles will not be taxed ?

These are the assurances we ask for and these are the assurances we must have. All these items are just as inherently related to production as is the yarn moving into the spinning mill to produce cloth, cloth which is not subject to tax. Pigmeal when it moves into the farm is the raw material of pig meat. The same is true of any end product, be it barley, wheat or oats. Fertiliser is a raw material in production from the land. Farm machinery is raw material on the land just as the machinery moving into the factory is the raw material of production in the factory.

It is the small trader who will be hit. From his replies to the questions raised on the Financial Resolution, the Minister seems to know very little about the actual implementation of this tax. Whether the Minister knows it or whether he does not, very large combines are getting together here. Their purchasing power is so great that they can buy their raw materials much more cheaply than the ordinary retailer can. They will be in a much more advantageous position from the point of view of this 2½ per cent turnover tax than the small trader will be; they will force him out of business. Is it the Government's intention that the small trader should be forced out? Do the Government believe these people are expendable? Do they believe there are too many of them? If the Government believe that, let them come out and say so. If the Government designed a tax which would put these people out of business, when announcing it the Government should let the people know what they planned the result to be.

I feel there was a certain political duplicity in the Minister's statement that the Government were giving £39 million a year to agriculture. That amount includes State building, research and Department of Agriculture wages and salaries.

Not the Department of Agriculture wages and salaries.

Perhaps not salaries, but certainly a considerable amount spent on the Agricultural Institute, a great amount on building and all the money spent on the bovine TB eradication scheme.

That pattern was set by the Coalition.

I am not at variance with the carrying out of the schemes but I am at variance with the Minister's statement that the farmers got £39 million for agriculture. The Minister produced a lesser figure and then added on the 1d per gallon for milk to make a total of £39 million. I do not believe that is politically honest. If the Minister would consult another part of his speech, he will find that the total State aid to the farmer, apart from certain incentives and an occasional grant, is under £9 million. It is right that it should be recorded that the direct State aid as far as the farmers are concerned is under £9 million.

I said £7½ million.

It is under £9 million. The figure I have just discussed with the Minister is the 1d per gallon for milk. The Minister knows well that this penny was, last night, reduced to .625 of a penny by the fact that Bord Bainne has imposed a levy of .375 of a penny on creamery milk. All the farmer gets now is .625 of a penny while his costs have gone up, since the last increase, by from 30 to 40 per cent. I should like to quote from the document issued by the Government on 30th June, 1961 as to the price obtained for milk by farmers in Europe. In Austria, it is 2/5d a gallon; Belgium, 2/1d; Denmark, 2/1d; France, 2/8d; Germany, 2/8d; Italy, 2/5d; Netherlands, 2/7d; Norway, 3/5d; Sweden, 2/10d; Switzerland, 3/2d; and the United Kingdom 3/2d. If the Minister wants to boast, he had better not boast abouts aids to agriculture. If he had done something about the marketing of agricultural produce over the past six years, we would be much better off now.

The relief in rates given last year has been entirely swallowed by the increase in rate poundage all over the country. On page 57 of his Budget speech, the Minister creates another precedent in relation to agriculture, a very dangerous precedent inasmuch as in addition to asking the farmer to pay rates on his land, he is now being asked to pay income tax. I quote :

A loophole in the existing law which will be closed relates to the case where a person, who engages in a trade or profession and is taxed on actual profits under Schedule D engages also in farming which is charged under Schedule B. Where a question arises as to the adequacy, having regard to the present standard of living and financial position, of the amount of business profits returned he may allege that the apparent discrepancy is accounted for by large profits from farming. Since his farming profits are taxed on a notional basis under Schedule B the taxpayer has nothing to lose by overstating them. A new section will provide that farming operations in such cases shall be assessed under Schedule B by reference to actual profits.

What are such cases? I go back to another phrase: "Having regard to the present standard of living and financial position". How is the Minister going to ascertain them? Is he going to have spies finding out if a person has a high standard of living, if he has rashers and sausages for his tea, whether he drinks whiskey or water? The implications arising from this matter are quite impossible.

If an industrialist or trader has a farm and even if he has other income, surely if he is paying the rates on his land as well as on his business, he should not be asked to pay income tax as well? There is another dangerous precedent in this inasmuch as where there is heavy investment in farming, it usually results in a higher level of farming and in a much higher standard of pay for the workers than the minimum rate. Where industrialists or moneyed people buy farms, it brings money into the district. You will have three, four, or five workers employed at £1 or 30/- a week more than the minimum rate where before there was no one employed.

The Minister indicated in his speech that the penny a gallon on milk was far less than he would wish to give. That penny is now down to .365 of a penny while the raw materials of the farming industry will have to bear this 2½ per cent turnover tax or 5/- per pig for a farmer who cannot grind his own meal.

As far as industry is concerned, the retrospective increase of 50 per cent on the corporation profits tax is infamous. It is infamous that any commercial firm which had been budgeting for capital investment, perhaps one which now has its contracts and tenders out, should now be told that its kitty is depleted by the amount of corporation profits tax, plus 50 per cent from 1st January, 1962. It is what I would term a dirty trick, no matter how tough the going is for the Government. I believe their own ineptitude and bad housekeeping is the reason they found the going tough but surely they could find a more decent method of dealing with the situation than a retrospective tax such as this?

At page 37 of the supplied version of the Budget speech, it is stated:

It is, therefore, proposed that the rate of corporation profits tax, which is now 10 per cent, be increased by five per cent and that all profits, including those hitherto within the exemption limit of £2,500, should bear this new 5 per cent.

What I want to know from the Minister is whether those profits within the exemption limit of £2,500 will be allowed the old 10 per cent.

Then it is only the new five per cent. I believe that the chambers of commerce who have reacted adversely to this increase are correct in their interpretation of the situation and that the Government are wrong. However, the Government are also wrong in their decision to taper off the 25 per cent export tax relief which was accorded in 1957. There are three incentives to industrialists to come here. One is a tax concession; another is a grant; and the third is a loan. Then there are the natural incentives such as a good labour force, which fortunately we have uniformly throughout the country, and the various other natural advantages which appertain to the position here.

As far as we are concerned on our side of the bargain, the strongest incentive we can offer the industrialists and the best from our point of view is an export tax concession. My reasoning on this is that if a man gets a grant and it does not suit him, he can get out. He may get a similar grant in some other country to build a factory and, having made his profit here, he can go. If we give an export tax concession particularly to an exporting firm, then surely that is a valid reason for that industrialist to remain. If I were to take in order of merit the incentives that bring people here, I would say the first is tax concessions, the second, grants, and the third, loans. I believe the tapering off of this tax concession is a grave mistake. It is a piece of legislation that was put through by the inter—Party Government and that is the sort of legislative measure that seems always to be dropped.

That particular one was added to by me.

That one was expanded by the Minister.

Now we are extending it again.

No, you are tapering it off.

Yes, but if I had not done this, it would cease completely next year.

When one gives a tax concession, say, for a period of five years, the idea is to have a look at it at the end of the five years and one would normally expect the Minister to proceed with it. That is merely a draftsman's point.

It was never intended as a concession for all time.

Yes, but I am sure that if an industrialist walked into the Industrial Development Authority a year ago, he would have been told there was a 25 per cent export tax relief and that he would not have been told it would end in 1964.

It would not concern him.

It would, if he were exporting.

No. It concerns only the firms that were exporting before 1957.

Anyway, it is being tapered off?

Yes. It was a present to them.

I do not think it was a present. It is a mistake to taper it off. Our net external assets went up by something less than £10 million in 1962. Capital formation went up by £14 million to £150 million. In 1962, they were 15 per cent of our national product; in 1961 they were only 14 per cent. Savings in the year were up by £7 million to £74 million. It is hard to understand how a Government could get itself into trouble in that situation. It is all very well for the Minister for Justice to quote the figures that suit him. Everything was in their favour. They were going with the stream. There was not a black cloud in the sky; yet by this Budget they have increased the incidence of taxation by nine per cent or almost £12 million. They have done it in a rather slithery way but it will be taken out of the pockets of the people just the same.

Before the end of this year, the Minister in order to balance the Budget, borrowed almost £10 million from the commercial banks. That was in addition to any borrowing there was, as I have mentioned, in relation to guarantees to State companies, and that further depletes the amount of overdraft accommodation available to old industry and old commerce here. I deliberately use the word "old" in this connection as referring to the people Fianna Fáil have deserted absolutely.

The mounting of public debt is something that should cause everybody concern, although it does not worry the Minister for Justice. The public debt has increased by £57 million to £600 million costing £40 million to service. In this Budget, there seems to be no incentive to production. There are the retarding influences of the tapering off of the exports tax relief, the new corporation profits tax on smaller companies, the increase in corporation tax by 50 per cent, the retarding influence, if the Minister does not change his mind, of a tax of 5/- being imposed on every cottier's pig, of charging 3/- on every barrel of seed and 10/- on every ton of high-grade fertiliser.

Last but not least, it is quite apparent—and, indeed, the Party of which I am a member adverted to it long before the last election; it was one of the main planks of their policy —that in the matter of education, we have lagged very much behind and that no ordinary Vote to education and no ordinary Budget today would have produced the desired result here. Nothing has been done in this Budget to face up to the responsibilities we have in relation to our young people. It used to be said we were the hewers of wood and the drawers of water. Now that more than five per cent of the London population is Irish presumably it can be said they are the carriers of hods and mortar. However, the number of jobs in that operation is gradually decreasing. As mechanisation and automation come in, the number of hewers of wood and drawers of water there will be fewer every year.

In every civilised country on this globe, there is a principle that any boy and girl who have the required amount of intelligence and application can go right to the top if they study hard at the secondary school and the university, even though their parents may not have the money to put them there. I should have hoped that this Budget would contain such a provision but what do we get? In the Evening Herald of Tuesday, April 23rd, 1963, the evening of the Budget, we saw a very pleasant photograph of the Minister for Finance and there was then this banner headline: Body Blow to Education: University Fees Rise Sharply. Some figures are given: agriculture, science, engineering and architecture up from £70 to £90; commerce and arts, up from £50 to £65; medicine up to £100. Then there is a reference to Leicester University receiving a total of non-recurring grants over the past three years of £1,780,000. It is comparable with University College, Galway, which got £129,000 in the past three years and in the previous three years got something considerably less.

If the Government did not fail in everything else, they failed in that. They did not provide for the young people of this country the opportunity to which they are entitled. I sincerely believe that because this is a bad Budget and because they have not done that particular thing for the young people of Ireland they will be defeated. Many other people believe it as well.

Let me quote from the Irish Times of the day after the Budget. Mr. Leo Keogh, Secretary of the Retail Grocery, Dairy and Allied Trades Association, is reported as saying that most people had assumed that food would be excepted from the 6d in the £ turnover tax. The report continues:

We are very disappointed that food has fallen within the Budget net.... There are lots of things we don't like about the turnover tax but it is rather difficult to say anything about it until we know how it is intended to work it and get all the details.

Basically, however, we do not see how it would be practical to operate such a tax in this country. Ireland has about 41,000 retail outlets, and we feel that a tight system of registration will have to be introduced. Short of very strict registration, we can see scope for evasion.

Mr. Donal Nevin, Research Officer of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, said that the inclusion of food and other necessaries in the turnover tax was entirely indefensible, the more so as the rate of tax would be the same for a loaf of bread as for a Jaguar car. While a £1,000 motor car would incur a tax amounting to a derisory £25, essential foods such as bread, butter, sugar, tea, etc., would be taxed to an equivalent extent.

Here is another extract from that same article on the Budget in the Irish Times where it is said the big men in the trade will be the hardest hit.

Publicans, too, will be affected by this increase. It is estimated that in Dublin about 200 of the 600 publicans will be hit by the increase. One publican said last night: The big men in the trade are going to be hardest hit but it will have far-reaching effects if these bigger traders decide to put their prices up to pay for the increased taxation, then naturally everybody in the business will do likewise. It's going to be a hectic time during the next few months and this increased taxation is going to lower the value of a great number of public houses.

In the "Economic Comment" in the Irish Times of the same day by Mr. Garret FitzGerald the headline was “An Unhappy Budget”. I believe that Fianna Fáil are condemned by their own statements in 1956. The milk and water five-year plan that has been produced will confuse nobody. They must leave office because they have exported 300,000 people, because they have fewer jobs in the country, because they have not looked after our people, because they have introduced not only the precedent of income taxation on farmers but have also included in their turnover tax the raw materials of the agricultural community—if the Minister does not mend his hand and I appeal to him to do so. For these reasons, the Government stand accused. I believe they will leave office because of this Budget, and the sooner, the better.

Anyone who thinks that this Budget is an easy one is surely in for a very rude awakening next November. I listened to the Minister's speech and I have heard the various speakers from the Government benches. We can only hazard a guess at the real implications of this Budget and the terrible repercussions it will have upon the livelihood of so many people in this country.

The Budget, in my opinion, was misleading, in the main. Many people are still unaware of the extent to which it will affect them in their everyday costs and in the privacy of their lives. There is as yet an element of complacency. The daily papers which carried the headlines of this Budget did not state, as they so often do, that there was 1d on the pint, 1d on cigarettes, and so much on other goods.

The Budget is misleading, I said. Moreover, it is an unfair, inequitable and unjust Budget, and is patently dishonest. We had come to think and become accustomed to the idea that there would be a sales tax of some sort. We believed that this kind of tax would be applied to luxury or semi-luxury goods. We were not the only ones who thought in those terms. Indeed, some members on the front bench of the Fianna Fáil Party thought likewise.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands is on record as telling his constituents some weeks ago that he could assure them that this tax would apply only and solely to luxury goods. The suggestion or insinuation that the tax would apply to foodstuffs or to the necessaries of life was out of the question. I can imagine his dismay when he learned the actual contents of the Budget. The Government Party removed the food subsidies in 1957, a particularly disgraceful thing to do. However, they have now gone the whole hog and are on record as being the first Irish Government to impose a tax on foodstuffs.

I am concerned, too, that the ramifications of this Budget will make new inroads into the privacy and domestic affairs of thousands of our people who heretofore were exempt from that kind of probing and prying. Some 50,000 shopkeepers in this country will now be obliged to give monthly returns to the Exchequer. They are subject to investigation. I fear the establishment of some kind of Gestapo to try to probe into the affairs of so many Irish people and naturally they are resentful of this Governmental decision.

Traders, small shopkeepers, hucksters and farmers are indignant and outraged that democracy should run so riot as to violate the privacy of their financial affairs to this extent. The existence of many of these small traders was already threatened by the many chain stores and self-service stores which are being established in many of our cities and towns. There was alarm and dismay about this new venture. I feel the Government, by imposing this turnover tax of 6d in the £, have rung the death knell for hundreds, if not thousands, of small shopkeepers in this country.

We are told that those traders whose turnover is less than £100 a month, or £25 a week, will be exempt, but to the extent that they shall have to pay only 17/6d per month to the Exchequer. The Minister or the civil servant who thought up this magnanimous idea was certainly a financial wizard, but he hardly had much charity in his heart. Let us say the profit on a turnover of £100 per month is ten per cent. That is putting it extremely high, although I understand the Minister for Finance is on record here as saying within the past few days he believed the profit in shops of this kind was nearer to 20 per cent. That is completely wrong. It is fantastic and absurd. The small trader with this kind of turnover has to make ends meet on a profit of £2 10s or £3 a week. He exists at subsistence or starvation level. Nevertheless, that unfortunate trader will have to pay his 17/6d at the end of each month.

We would have much preferred if the Minister had chosen a list of luxury and semi-luxury goods and imposed on them a tax sufficient to yield the revenue he is now getting from this new tax, instead of putting on a tax of this kind which affects every commodity. It affects not merely bread, butter, tea and sugar—the everyday diet of the ordinary people—but also boots, shoes, clothing, household utensils, even the services of the laundry and the barber. Everything is affected.

Inherent in this Budget is a deliberate attack on the standard of life of our people, particularly the working class people dependent on weekly wages, and also the social welfare beneficiaries, who are obliged to exist on around £2 a week. That the Government should increase the cost of living on those people is a truly deplorable thing, especially at a time when Ministers of the same Government are admonishing us to exercise restraint and caution in case there might be an inflationary trend.

We had the recent White Paper on Incomes and Output which was a clear directive to the workers that they ought not to seek wage increases and a clear statement to civil servants that they could not hope to get wage increases. It was in every sense a standstill on wages and salaries, while at the same time profits and prices were allowed to go unbridled. That has been a significant feature of Fianna Fáil Government for the past six years. They have shown a complete disregard for the cost of living. They removed the food subsidies, increased the cost of living out of all proportion at that time, and have now gone on to impose a tax on essential foodstuffs and commodities.

That same Government must clearly understand there is an obligation on the Irish trade union movement to safeguard the standard of life of the people they represent. The cost of living has already gone up by nearly six points in the past 12 months. One can only hazard a guess at the extent to which it will increase in November and December as a result of the imposition of this new tax. This tax will have the effect, in the average household where £10 a week is expended, of bringing about an increase of at least 5/-. But I believe the increase will be nearer to 10/- or 12/- because of the liberty granted to traders in the matter of its collection.

I believe this new tax will lead to profiteering. There are many decent and honourable traders who will not embark on that policy, but the traders are already on record as stating they are unable and unwilling—they cannot—to carry the burden of the tax and that the consumer must pay all. The Government anticipate profit eering. They say the only means by which a rise in the cost of foodstuffs will be prevented is the competition there will be between trader and trader. They expect, and are deliberately precipitating, a jungle war between the traders and small shopkeepers, particularly the hucksters who supply the bread, butter, tea, sugar and such everyday commodities. The Government hope that this jungle war will have the effect of stabilising prices, but in that kind of stabilisation, the small man will go to the wall and only the strong will survive. Many of our small traders will simply not be able to exist in those circumstances.

The trade union movement are gravely perturbed about this imposition. They have an obligation to safeguard the standard of life of their members, not only to ensure it shows no deterioration, but that it shows a progressive improvement. I prophesy therefore that the ninth round of wage increases is, of necessity, in the offing. It has been brought about, not because of any irresponsibility on the part of the workers or their representatives, but because of the deliberate policy of the Government.

Much capital has been made of the fact that the social welfare beneficiaries have not been forgotten on this occasion either. The annual handout of a pittance of 2/6d has come around again. No one is going to be deluded into thinking that this sop which has been thrown to the social welfare beneficiaries every year for the past six years has had any worthwhile effect in improving the lot of those unfortunate people. The half-crown has already been eaten up as a result of the increase in the cost of living this year and which has already reached five or six points. The sales tax imposed on these people will easily swallow up the rest, if there is any. Half-a-crown a week for the sick, the aged, the infirm, the unemployed and widowed represents fivepence per day for every shopping day in the week and it is very easy for that to be swallowed up by the kind of prices which prevail for all commodities today.

It was particularly despicable that foodstuffs should have been included in this tax measure because the people to whom I have referred will be the main sufferers. To suggest, therefore, that you are maintaining and improving the lot of these people is patently dishonest and I defy contradiction of that. We welcome the proposal to increase children's allowances. A married man with a wife and five children can now expect to get an increase of 5/10d a week from November next. That sum represents a spending capacity of 10d per day for that family or 1½d a day for each individual member. What good is such an increase——

It is not worth a box of matches.

——having regard to the fact that these people will now pay more on almost everything they require for everyday life? I believe that there will be an increase of pennies, or two-pennies, or halfpence on everything and the cost of living will spiral. There will be profiteering and no one will be able to control it. We believe in taxation where the essential services of our country are concerned. We believe in and have supported and will vote for the necessary taxation to provide money for stimulating the economy and providing a more secure, contented and prosperous life for our people.

It is said that a good Budget should energise rather than penalise. I see nothing in this Budget which will give a new energy or impetus to the economy but there is plenty of penalising in it. Almost every section of the community is now penalised as never before. I see nothing in the Budget which will give to our people the kind of health service they deserve, not merely as a charity but as a right, devoid of that odious means test which is an inherent part of it today. I see nothing in the Budget which will give our children the opportunities to attain to the highest spiritual, cultural and educational levels. I see nothing in it which will take out of education that class bias that money is the criterion rather than ability and that it is a matter of indifference whether a child has the aptitude to proceed because if that child's parents have not money, then that child will not get a higher education. We feel that that is absolutely wrong. It is the child's ability to benefit by education and not the ability of the parent to pay which should be the criterion.

These are the things we expect to be assisted and provided for in a Budget of this kind. On the other hand, we had the further statement of the Taoiseach's intention to embark on another five-year plan. Many people were gulled, duped and fooled into thinking that the last five-year plan was going to be the salvation of this country and its people. It was heralded as something which was going to end emigration for all time and provide full employment within five years. Looking back at that period, and at the sorry state of affairs in Ireland, one must conclude that the five-year plan was a miserable, abject failure.

The facts are that there are fewer people employed in Ireland today than there were six years ago. There are 4,412 fewer persons in employment to-day than there were this time 12 months ago and there are 5,073 fewer people in employment today than there were two days ago. In the past six years, almost 300,000 persons have been forced to leave this land. That is the evidence of the abject failure of the five-year plan. I do not think the people will be fooled a second time by this kind of proposition on paper which is incapable of being implemented or realised. By all means, let us have a plan that will prosper this country, any plan which will take away from the name of Ireland the shame and disgrace of being an underdeveloped country and the brand of a vanishing race. The Labour Party will support every plan and measure to eliminate these terrible effects.

The social and economic evils of our country have been unaffected by the implementation of this plan. We still have all these things with us and we still have the right to live and work in our own land denied to so many people. It has been said, indeed, that five per cent of the people of London are of Irish origin. We have won for ourselves, as I say, the name of a vanishing race and if we do not take steps to arrest this sorry state of affairs, this country will become a virtual byword for degeneration amongst great nations.

What irks me most of all as a newcomer and a young Deputy in this House is to hear spokesmen of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael arguing with each other, quoting figures and blaming each other for what happened five or six years ago, blaming each other for unemployment and emigration and trying to prove by way of figures that one side or the other was responsible for these problems at a given time.

It is no longer sufficient, and it will no longer convince anyone, for Fianna Fáil spokesmen to blame the Coalition for the sorry state of affairs in Ireland. That was all right for the first year. Any defects arising from the alleged misgovernment of the Coalition could have been and should have been undone within that 12 months. We would concede two years or even three years to the Government Party but, after six years, that excuse is wearing very thin and people will accept it no longer.

The fact is that the Fianna Fáil Government have been in direct and sole control of the affairs of this nation for 25 years. A quarter of a century is a long period of time, a long period in the history of this young State. I submit and contend that Fianna Fáil got every opportunity to remedy the affairs of the country, being returned on many occasions with complete and overwhelming majorities in this House. Yet, it must be contended that the precious years of liberty and freedom so hard won, so hard fought for, have been squandered away.

Every country in Europe, devastated by a great war, is rising rapidly to an era of full employment, a high standard of living for its people, security not merely in everyday working life but particular security in sickness, infirmity and old age, from which none of us is immune. These countries of Europe whom it was thought we would join very soon in an economic community have achieved economic miracles in the standard of life they have secured for their people. How is it that Ireland is so essentially backward? Is it the system of Government that is wrong? It is not sufficient to blame one Party or the other any longer. We must face the situation squarely. I contend again that as Irishmen who took over the affairs of this young nation they wasted the precious years of freedom and have certainly disappointed and outraged the hopes of the new generation, for which I speak.

The Taoiseach now says that he is going to make a move to the left. We wonder what that means. Obviously, the Taoiseach has been sniffing the air of change which is blowing throughout the land. He knows full well, as an astute politician, that a younger generation in this country will no longer tolerate the indignities which have been heaped upon them and on their fathers over the past 30 years. If their fathers were gulled into supporting two political Parties which emerged out of a Civil War and whose only basis for existence up to now was on what side they were on then, the younger generation is completely indifferent to that particular sad occasion. They want, above all else, the right to work in their own land. They want the right to a decent wage, decent conditions of work. They want a sense of security, a sense of dignity. They want to marry and found a family. They claim that as a fundamental right. They cry shame and disgrace on any Government who deny it to them.

Let us make no mistake about it. The 300,000 persons who have been forced to leave this land in the past six years have gone out with a very definite and large chip on their shoulders. They have little respect for the system which forced them out. We have a lot to be responsible for if they go astray in any regard in the countries of their adoption. It is not John Bull who is sending them out any more; it is not the foreign tyrant who is sending them out. It is their own native Government. It is indignity being heaped upon Irishmen and women by Irishmen in Parliament and we stand responsible and answerable to the extent that these young persons are led astray or forgo the finer things in culture, religion and everything that this country has stood for.

The Taoiseach has made the suggestion of moving to the left. I make bold to state that, despite the best intentions of the Taoiseach to move a little to the left, he will never be allowed to do so. The people who support, maintain and finance the Fianna Fáil Party are essentially the people with vested interests in this country. They represent, in the main, the rancher, the banker, the financial exploiters of this country and they will not allow that Party to move to the left. One can well imagine that there would be a speedy rift in that Party. A Party that is dependent on the people with vested interests in this country, is incapable of bringing about the radical change which I believe Labour and Labour alone can achieve.

I do not wish to delay the House much longer on this Budget. We judge a Budget on the good it will do for the economy of the nation, on the benefits and the dignity it will confer on its most cherished asset, its people. This Budget is a pretty savage one inasmuch as it will extract almost £12 million out of the pockets of the people. Ten and a half million pounds of that amount will come out of the pockets of the consumers alone. We deplore the fact that the Government made the decision to fix and apportion that tax irrespective of the ability of the people to pay. We believe that a tax be apportioned in accordance with the ability of the people to bear the burden. As has been pointed out so often in this debate in the past few days, this tax which will be imposed on luxuries such as a Jaguar car, a mink coat, or an expensive jewel, in the very same proportion as it will be imposed on bread and butter, is unfair, inequitable and unjust. We deplore it.

The Minister has hinted to me that the Labour Party support this kind of tax in other countries. Frankly, I deny that. There is an odious comparison between what has been done by the socialist Parties in England and those in control in Europe, and the economy of this country. Any tax which a Labour Party have been obliged to impose was in strict accordance with the ability of the people to pay. Those people had secure employment. They had good wages which guaranteed them not merely frugal comfort, but real comfort. They also had guarantees in respect of sickness, infirmity and old age. Any tax so imposed within the decimal system was imposed in strict accordance with the ability of the working classes to pay. We deny that this kind of tax is, in fact, in vogue in England. The tax in England was designed to cover luxury and semi-luxury lines only.

I believe this Budget will have very serious repercussions. I have said that bureaucracy has reared its ugly head in this instance with an unusual vengeance. The people of this country are proud of the privacy of their homes. They are proud to be masters of their own financial affairs. They resent intrusions of any kind. The State is now taking an unprecedented step forward into the affairs of the 50,000 traders of this country for the first time. It has also caught up the farming community in the net of taxation. I am sure the farmers will deeply resent being dragged into the net of taxation for the first time in the history of the State. Farmers who may be shopkeepers in their own right, or shareholders in co-operative stores, will now be liable for taxation not merely on that enterprise but on their farming profits as well.

Even after listening to the countless speeches which were made here, it is difficult to understand the depth and the reality of the repercussions which will arise from these impositions. It is only next November that the people will realise what really hit them in regard to the intrusion into the privacy of their homes, the imposition of a steep increase in the cost of living. They will have to contend anew with a galaxy of tax collectors, to whom I have referred as a kind of Gestapo, who will now be responsible for prying, spying and probing into the affairs of some 60,000 more Irishmen and women.

As a Party, we support enthusiastically any proposal or any request from the Government for moneys which are essential to maintain the essential services and to develop our economy, but we have very definite ideas as to how the money should be collected. In this instance, we say that we do not know of a worse or more unsavoury method of collecting taxation than the method adopted by the Minister. We deplore the fact that the Government should, of set purpose, depress the standard of living of our people, send prices spiralling and force the small traders into a jungle war in which many will be badly beaten and not survive. They have ensured that the ninth round of wage increases is just around the corner.

I listened with interest to the speech of the last young Deputy. Obviously, he is very young and rather inexperienced, because he does not appear to have realised the improvements that have been made in the State since its foundation, and he appears to want to denigrate the improvements that have been made. I am afraid any impartial observer will disagree with him in that view.

As to his suggestion that my Party are maintained by the vested interests of the country, I think the most obvious comment on that is the fact that so far as I know there is in this city the greatest collection of industrial workers in the whole of the land, and so far as I know again, there is only one Labour Deputy officially representing them in this House. So it would appear to me that there was no necessity for the Taoiseach to make any reference to this Party moving to the left as we appear to have been, in the views of the working man, more to the left than any Party in this House over a great number of years. If, in our view, the national interest requires it in order to achieve the aims we are setting ourselves, to improve the social services and to provide for the planned programme upon which we are now embarking, I believe we will also have the full broad support of the people of the country, including the vast majority of the workers, to help us in this national aim.

It is rather significant that when people complain about taxation, or the form of taxation and how it should be collected, they are very slow to advance any alternative plan. It is fine and easy here for any Deputy to suggest that he will support everything that is for the national good, that he will support increased old age pensions, family allowances and benefits for the social welfare classes, that he will support further expenditure in the public sector but, of course, that he will not support any form or type of taxation to meet those national demands. It would be much more realistic, in my view, if those people would suggest where the money is to be found to pursue those national aims. This Budget has been framed not on a day-to-day basis but for the purpose of giving effect to the new planned financial programme referred to by the Taoiseach for further economic expansion over the next five years.

The people who suggest that the first Programme for Economic Expansion introduced by this Government was a failure are closing their eyes to economic facts, facts which are within the knowledge of everyone and which are apparent to impartial observers. With regard to something the last speaker said, the Irish Banking Review of March, 1963, had this to say at page 4 in connection with the last Programme for Economic Expansion.

Industrial output expanded by about 8½% in 1960 and in 1961 but by only 5% in 1962. The year was not stagnant and had indeed many promising features. There was a rise in industrial employment, a fall in emigration and a rise in population. Domestic and foreign investment continued to take place, though at a slower rate than in earlier years. Many new industries were opened and many more were in the course of being established.

That is the statement of an independent financial journal which has no axe to grind. It is not a quotation from a speech made by some Minister of State. In that journal is set out what has been achieved in actual fact under the first Programme for Economic Expansion; taking the good years with the bad, the economic increase averaged four per cent. It was actually higher in some years. When that programme was planned by the Government, we were planning for a modest two per cent and, having set that target, we thought that it would definitely be a tremendous improvement on the stagnation we had inherited in our economy. We have made much more progress than we anticipated. We are planning now for another five years and this Budget is designed to give effect to the new programme envisaged for further expansion to bring about a further steady four per cent per year increase in our economy over the next five years.

One of the best indicators of the economy of a country is the position of its equities. There has been an extraordinary increase in the price of Irish industrial equities. An economist examining the American economy would, first of all, study the figures in the Dowd Jones Industrial Register. Studying the British economy, he would turn to the Financial Times Index. In order to judge fairly here, we should look at the index for the Irish industrial register for Irish industrial equities and in that way discover the success achieved by the first Programme for Economic Expansion. A recent issue of the Financial Times had this comment to make:

Both the Irish equity index and the Irish country's production index have shown a comparatively high rate of growth in recent years.

That is an expression of opinion about our economy by an internationally reputable financial journal.

The figures for Irish industrial equities over the period covered by the White Paper make very interesting reading. The price index in January, 1959, gives the figure at 109.7; in 1960 it was up to 146.8; in 1961 it was up to 167.9; in 1962 it was up to 198.7; in 1963 it was up to 232.9 and in February of this year, which is the last figure I have, it was up to 237.6. It is still rising.

Did the Minister ever think of putting a tax on capital gains?

I will deal with taxes when I come to them and with the Deputy's big industrial friends about whom he is so worried. I want to point out the extraordinary growth in the economy as shown by these figures. There is an increase of 150 per cent since 1959. Figures are, I know, cold, but these figures are unanswerable as an indication of the quite extraordinary expansion in industrial activity here and the confidence of investors in Irish industrial equities in the period covered by the Programme for Economic Expansion. These are figures and comments that speak for themselves. These are not statements made by protagonists of the economic policy of this Government. The figures speak for themselves. The comments come from reputable sources. Our own Irish Banking Review points to an increase in employment, an increase in population and a reduction in emigration. All these are indications of the success of the planned financial policy pursued by this Government.

It is the intention now to pursue the same planned policy in the next five years and to further organise our resources in such manner as to achieve a still further expansion in our economy of four per cent per annum. That is a very desirable aim. I think it would even be the aim of our enemies. It is certainly the aim of all those who have the interests of the nation at heart. One must plan ahead and make provision for the necessary capital. That has been done in this Budget. One must plan for taxation to finance the programme envisaged in order to achieve the expansion at which we aim in the new programme announced by the Taoiseach in his speech on this Budget.

On the question of our economy generally, and particularly in relation to our balance of payments, Deputy Dillon made a contribution to this debate on 24th April. He referred to the external trade balance which he alleged stood at £102 million. I suppose £1 million one way or the other does not worry Deputy Dillon. He said:

These preparatory papers speak of the gap in the trade balance and of the deficit in the balance of payments and comment on the capital movements that are taking place between this country and the outside world which we have to cloak for the time being, the fiduciary reaction of the balance of trade on the net external assets of the joint stock banks, the Central Bank and the Government funds, and point out that our invisible exports make a substantial contribution by way of tourism, emigrants' remittances, pensions and so on and say there is a balance of £24 million which is made up of external subscriptions to Government loans. If that is not hot money, would I be exaggerating if I described it as warm money? That investment could be thrown on the market with very uncomfortable consequences at a moment's notice.

Let me take this step by step. It is quite obvious that Deputy Dillon, when dealing with these figures, does not understand what he is talking about. This £24 million which he alleges came into this country by way of external subscriptions to Government loans is completely fallacious. There was not more than £1 million— in fact somewhat less—subscribed from outside sources to any Government loan since this Government came into power. Here we have Deputy Dillon suggesting that £24 million has come into this country by way of external investment in national loans. Even if £24 million did come into our national loans here, I think it would be a very good thing but to keep the picture straight, let me put it on record that in any national loan in this country, there was less than £1 million subscribed by outsiders.

It is true, and I am sure Deputy Dillon must know this, that over the past few years there has been more investment in Irish national equities by outsiders and that investment may have accounted for a very considerable sum. Instead of denigrating these facts, no matter what side of this House we are on, should we not welcome the fact that because of the stability of this State, because of its high standing abroad, because of the belief abroad in the financial possibilities of this State, people now want to invest their money in this country rather than in Sweden, the banana republics of South America or any other country? Is this not the best proof that anyone can get of the success of the financial policy pursued by the Government, that independent judges outside who have money to invest look around and find that this country is the best place to invest it, that it is the place where it will be most safe and most productive?

Do you not think employment would be better proof?

I know the Deputy and his Party would be happy if the boot were on the other foot as it was in 1956 when everybody who had a few pounds to invest went out of this country, when capital was flying out of it, when everybody felt that this was a place to get your money out of, as they might feel when a revolution was pending in a banana republic. Now the boot is on the other foot. Now we have an inflow of capital to this country and because we have that inflow into Irish industrial equities and a smaller flow into Irish national loans, investments in the future of this country, we have Fine Gael whinging and crying that this is hot money. It would never occur to them to welcome the fact that an Irish Government have seen the day in which foreign investors have realised the stability of the economy of this country and that this is a place in which to put their money.

This is the lesson to be learned from these figures. I know the answer of Deputy Dillon and his friends is to suggest that this is hot money but people do not pick Irish industrial equities in which to put hot money because the price of these equities is dependent on the prosperity of the companies in which moneys are invested and that, in turn, will depend on the prosperity of the economy as a whole. These allegations of hot money will not wash in so far as this inflow of capital to Irish industrial equities is concerned.

If this money comes in to be invested in Irish national loans, it cannot be taken out overnight. The price of the loan will depend upon the state of the country. These people are not fools. If they are investing to a comparatively small degree in Irish national loans and if they are investing to a much larger degree in Irish industrial equities, it is the best proof anybody can give that the economic policy of this Government is paying off. These people realise that this is a country to invest in because of our stable conditions. They know our economy has been expanding and that their money is safe. That is the reason we had this inflow of capital.

I should have thought that this modern development of outsiders considering this country to be a proper and safe place in which to invest their money would be welcomed on all sides of the House and that we would not have had attempts to denigrate our international standing because of this proof by independent judges that Ireland is the country of the future, that Ireland is the place in which they can invest their money in order to share in the national prosperity that has taken place here.

Again, dealing with external assets, Deputy Dillon comes back to his old theory that there is something extraordinary happening about foreign investment in Irish land. On this occasion, he did not open his mouth so wide. A few months ago, he wanted to make out that there was something like £100 million of foreign money to buy up the land of Ireland but on 24th April, he had this to say:

The third category are purchases of buildings and lands by externs. It is hard to find out what the Government's view on this is. The Minister for Lands says it does not amount to £500,000, the Minister for Finance says his latest information is that about £1 million worth of land was purchased here in the past 12 months. I believe the figure to be substantially higher and I believe it to be substantially increased by a new invasion—the land speculators and the property speculators who are moving in and now buying up house and office property and renting it to nationals of this country.

I have already made it abundantly clear here and elsewhere that there is a statutory register established in the Irish Land Commission in which there is a record of every square yard of Irish land purchased by any foreigner, no matter for what purpose. Transactions of this kind can be divided into three categories, that is, the transactions in respect of which the 25 per cent stamp duty has been paid, which was introduced by this Government in the Finance Act about August, 1961; transactions which are exempt from this taxation because they are invariably what I have described as white elephants, old large houses with small amounts of land which would be of no interest to the Land Commission for their purposes; and thirdly, the transactions which are exempt from stamp duty by virtue of the fact that they are purchased solely for industrial purposes.

From 1st August, 1961, to 1st May this year, the number of transactions on which 25 per cent stamp duty has been paid was 139. The total acreage was 10,771 and the total money involved was £656,000. That is over a period of one year and nine months. That is the total amount, for the whole country, of land purchased on which the 25 per cent stamp duty has been paid. That would give an annual figure of somewhat less than the 5,000 acres a year. Let me say in passing that in many of these cases, they are sales from one alien to another.

Deputy Dillon uses his imagination to try to sell to the public the idea that a vast amount of the land of Ireland is being purchased by foreigners. The Minister for Finance gave a different figure because he gave the figure for transactions which were exempt from stamp duty, having been acquired exclusively for the purpose of industry other than agriculture. For the same period, from 1st August, 1961, to the 1st May, 1963, the number of these transactions was 169; the number of acres involved for these industrial purposes was 2,186, and the money involved over this period of nearly two years was £970,871.

That is the complete picture and these figures completely wipe out the allegations made by Deputy Dillon that there is some extraordinary investment by foreigners in the purchasing of Irish land. We now have a statutory register under which we must get details of every transaction in regard to Irish land entered into by any outsider, let it be for industry or for agriculture. However, long before this, these allegations were being made, but the average figure of land changing hands in this country then ranged from 3,500 to 5,000 acres and many of these transactions were between these aliens. It is true to say that some of these people came here from Britain after the war and, having purchased some ramshackle place, got their fingers burned. Having spent their own money on the place and found that their income was not sufficient to maintain it, they were anxious to unload it on one of their own type, if they could get another victim. There has been this continued pattern in recent years of about 5,000 acres a year changing hands between these people.

When Deputy Blowick was Minister for Lands in the Coalition Government, he at one time was asked questions by some Deputy about this matter. His answer was that at this rate it would take a long time to purchase all the land of Ireland. We are supposed here to have something like 12 million acres of arable land, and to suggest that the 4,000 or 5,000 acres involved in these transactions that take place year by year between these people will in any way affect our international balance of payments or have any impact on the national land structure here is to be completely unrealistic. Of course, in a way it may be good politics. From our history, we know that the question of land is a very delicate one in this country and if any wild allegations are made that huge quantities of Irish land are being purchased by foreigners to the detriment of the Irish people, there may be many foolish people who will believe stories of this kind. These are the facts as established under our law. That is the amount and the extent of these transactions and Deputy Dillon, in dealing with the economy, cannot get away with the suggestion that there are millions flowing into this country of what he terms hot money for the purchase of Irish land.

Deputy Dillon in dealing with our balance of payments problem—which is not, for the reasons I have given, a real problem at the moment because our external assets have not depreciated but have increased—is rather puzzled to find out how that has happened. He does not attempt to give any lucid explanation of that proposition. The suggestion is—and the Leader of the main Opposition would like the people to believe this—that the nation is in a terrible way, that we have a dreadful balance of payments problem but he knows very well that if there were this deficit on external account, there would be a consequent reduction in the external assets of our country. He made no attempt to explain, for the purpose of his argument, that our external assets, instead of being reduced, have increased over last year.

I have said that this Budget is designed not alone to meet present requirements, but, in the long term, to finance the new programme for the further economic expansion on which the Government are now embarking. To meet the needs of both capital investment and the expanded investment in different productive works throughout the country being undertaken under this Budget, it is necessary to find the money. The turnover tax has been introduced for this purpose. It is a new tax structure that will serve the needs of the nation in the long term. In particular, it will enable us to go ahead with the expansion of the economy as has been indicated by the Taoiseach.

Let me say this to the Labour Deputy—he is not here just now— who talked on this issue. This tax, in one form or another, is applicable in practically every country in Western Europe. It may not be in the same form as we have introduced it here but I think it is in the same form as we have introduced it in two great socialist countries in which the Labour Deputies should be interested, namely, the Scandinavian countries of Norway and Sweden. The difference there is that even with their resources —they have high social services and their people enjoy a high standard of living—their turnover tax is in the region of 10 per cent as against the modest two and a half per cent we are introducing here to meet our national needs.

I want, in particular, to say a word to the Deputies, even the Opposition Deputies, from rural Ireland. I want to ask them to consider the financial provisions being made for rural Ireland under this Budget. For agriculture alone, in one form or another, approximately £40 million is being provided under this Budget. Take the next Department that most affects rural Ireland, my own Ministry of Lands. A record provision is being made here for £2,709,300, the largest amount of money ever provided for the great social work of the Irish Land Commission since the foundation of this State.

Take Fisheries. Again, for rural Ireland, a half million pounds is being provided for the new programme outside the provision being made for Bord Iascaigh Mhara. Take the Forestry Division of my Department. We have provided in these Estimates and under this Budget a sum of £3,100,000 which is again the largest figure ever provided for any Minister for Lands for afforestation purposes since the foundation of this State.

We have, under Roinn na Gaeltachta, provided over half a million pounds—£586,000—for a Department that deals solely with rural Ireland. Indeed, a record figure was achieved in the purchase of land this year by the Department of Lands and the intake on the Land Commission side of lands for the relief of congestion was the greatest ever achieved in any single year.

For cash purchases of land this year, for the relief of congestion throughout the length and breadth of this country, a sum of £175,000 was provided. That represents as much as was spent for the purchase of land by cash in this country between all of the years from 1950 to 1960. These are the provisions that are being made in this Budget for the benefit of rural Ireland in addition to the social welfare benefits which will be approximately £4½ million. Although I know that a lot of that will go to cities and towns, a fair share will go also to small farmers on the dole and to old age pensioners throughout rural Ireland. There are, in addition, the family allowances.

I would ask Deputies sitting on the Opposition benches who come from rural Ireland to think twice before they challenge the provisions being made in this Budget for rural Ireland that will affect their people, particularly the people in the congested areas, from the west, in such a way.

Financial provision is also being made to give effect to all the matters envisaged under the inter-Departmental Committee on the Problems of Small Western Farms. Increased provision is being made for the matters that will arise by virtue of the setting up of local committees to co-ordinate work in the western counties so that local schemes with local initiative will get immediate help. All these matters are being provided under this Budget by means of this taxation.

I am sure the people of rural Ireland will shed no tears and chant no De Profundis about the song and dance made here by Deputy Dillon and his friends regarding the taxation of big industrialists with turnovers or profits of £100,000 and £200,000 a year. This is the issue for Deputies from rural Ireland, no matter, as I have said, on what side of the House they sit.

There is a very simple way in which the Government could put back the hands of the clock as the Coalition Government did in their time. The Government could reduce the work of my Departments dealing with rural Ireland. They could reduce these record figures now being provided for the benefit of the rural people. The Government could reduce the £40 million to agriculture. If the Government wanted to find a way of bridging the gap, they could do as Deputy Sweetman did on 25th July, 1956, when he directed the then Minister for Lands, Deputy Blowick, in words like this: "A very pressing demand for economy in the social services has been made and, after consultation with the Minister, it has been decided to suspend the operation of Section 27 Land Act purchases."

You can, of course, have economies in that way. You can stop every Department concerned with rural Ireland from expending any money. You can bring things to a standstill financially if you pursue the Tory policy represented by those on the opposite benches. But if you are to have faith in the expansion of our economy and if Deputies from rural Ireland believe, as I believe, that these large provisions should be made for the relief of the land slums of our country, for more housing for our small farmers, for greater provision for agriculture and for social welfare, then we will face the situation with confidence in ourselves and in our future. Considering what has been achieved under the Government's previous Programme for Economic Expansion I have no doubt that, with the help and co-operation of the Irish people, irrespective of the Opposition, we will achieve the maximum expansion in our economy as envisaged in the new Programme now being prepared by the Government.

I presume the purpose of a Budget debate is to give Deputies an opportunity of expressing not so much their personal views as the views of their constituents. Over the past five or six days, I have had the opportunity of getting the views of quite a number of my constituents on the Budget of last week, and it is only right that I, as their representative here, should express their views. I am sorry to have to tell the Minister for Finance that what I generally found in people's minds was annoyance, disappointment, dismay and frustration. No matter what way you look at it, and leaving out politics altogether, this Budget can only be described as a really bad one.

I want to speak first on behalf of that section of the people most annoyed, the town and country shopkeepers. They find themselves in the unfortunate position of being unpaid tax collectors. In addition, they are to have a greater annoyance. From 1st November next, or perhaps before that, they will have to start keeping accounts and records, not to satisfy themselves but to satisfy the Revenue Commissioners. From our experience of Civil Service forms and the manner in which they inspect them, we know that the business of shopkeeping is not going to be made any easier.

The job of a shopkeeper is arduous enough as it is. Those people were justifiably annoyed to read in the Minister's Budget speech what he proposed to do. This comes at a time when it is practically impossible for them to make ends meet. At present and for the past few years, business people in town and country find the making of a living almost beyond them. What with taxes and extra expenses, such as last year's increase in postage and telephones, coming one after another quietly but surely, the job of managing a business is becoming almost impossible.

I spoke on more than one occasion about the danger of supermarkets and multiple stores. At a time when family shopkeepers are already annoyed about the operations of these people on a large scale in our towns and villages, these family businesses are to have this extra burden placed on them. I say—not because I like to say it but because I believe it is true—many of those shopkeepers will be forced out of business. We know that businesses in our towns and villages to-day are barely existing. It is very bad that any act of any Government should further worsen the position of those people.

It is admitted in figures published by the Central Statistics Office that there is a decline in the number of agricultural workers. It is also well known that there are fewer people in employment now than there were last year and several thousand fewer than there were four or five years ago. In the past five or six years, more than 275,000 people have left the country. In the face of that and with all these added impositions, how can anyone say that there is any hope for the future of traders in town and country? Therefore, I protest most emphatically against the imposition of this tax which puts these people in the role of unpaid tax collector.

This Budget will hit every section of the community because this 2½ per cent turnover tax will be collected in all shops. It was a joke for the Minister to say that those with a turnover of less than £100 a month or £25 a week would have to pay only 17/6 a month. How can it have the name of a business if the turnover, with the present value of money, is less than £25 a week? I had thought this tax would be collected on bad debts, but I am glad to hear from the Minister for Justice that it will be imposed only on the money collected by the shopkeeper.

Did the Minister or any member of the Government ever think of the situation in regard to, say, a greengrocer's shop. Especially in respect of fruit and vegetables the money you take in does not represent a profit in so far as much of the produce may be sold at a loss. Having suffered that loss on the sale of his produce, will the trader still have to pay the 2½ per cent tax? If so, it is certainly most unjust. I would ask the Minister to take that aspect into consideration when framing the proposals in the Finance Bill.

I turn now to the farmers. I notice Deputy Corry is here. I am sure he will be able to speak for the farmers better than I am. I would ask him, if he speaks, to explain to the farmers in north east Cork how the Minister for Lands could say that they are getting this £40 million extra, which he says they will get this year. As everybody who is interested in the farming community knows, the farmers expected to get devaluation of the first £20 of their valuation in this Budget. That of course did not come about. Some weeks ago, they did get an increase of 1d a gallon of milk but that 1d is offset now by a turnover tax because anything they will need for farming will cost more. Even their domestic requirements will cost more and their household budgets will go up.

No matter how we look at it, the farmers are in fact worse off now than they were before they got that increase. Of course, about a year and a half or two years ago, there was a levy of practically 1d a gallon put on milk and it was only a few weeks ago that they got back that 1d and now it has gone again. It will be very difficult for anyone to explain to the farmers, who are a sensible body of people, that they are better off now than they were.

One important test of a Government's policy is how the employment position stands and how emigration stands. There can be no question about the unemployment position being worse and the emigration figures being higher. The Minister for Lands told us about the first five-year plan and gave us an amount of figures about investments in industrial equities and so on, but that is not sufficient for the man-in-the-street who is mainly interested in how he is affected with regard to the cost of living and getting a decent standard of living in his own country.

Any statements by the Minister for Lands will not get away from the fact that things in this country have worsened year after year. It is bad enough that the Government have deceived the people but they deserve most blame for allowing the situation in which we find ourselves to develop. When I was speaking on the Budget last year, I mentioned that in the coming year I could not foresee any improvement in the standard of living or in the country's position. I was regarded as a prophet of gloom. It is not a name which anyone likes to have tagged on to him but I am taking the risk of repeating it now because honestly I cannot see, with the Government's policy and expenditure and the cost of administering the services, that there is anything like real hope for an improvement in the next 12 months either. As a result of the turnover tax which is proposed, it is expected to get £3½ million, and it is expected to get an extra £3 million from the corporation profits tax and in the final analysis it will be the man-in-the-street who must pay. This year, he finds that an extra £8½ million has to be collected from him in one form or another. That is my criticism of the Budget.

What good did it contain? There is some talk about an increase of 2/6 for old age pensioners and recipients of social welfare benefits, but there is no doubt that the 2/6 will be taken from them by the turnover tax. That is easily worked out. In fact, the old age pensioners and the social welfare recipients will find themselves worse off financially than they were before. I do not know if the Government think that they can keep going indefinitely on these lines. I want to tell them quite sincerely that the people are getting very tired of it. One question which I heard asked over the week-end on a number of occasions by sensible people was: "Do the Government want to get out ?" I do not know whether or not they want to get out but it is quite obvious that the people would like them to get out very soon because their policies have been utter failures.

The Minister for Justice finished his speech by saying that the Budget was one of good, sound, prudent management. I do not know how anyone could expect the ordinary people to accept this Budget as one of good, sound, prudent management. Let them address those sentiments to the shopkeepers in the country. I would appeal to the Government to alter their idea, where possible, of extracting money from the people hand over fist, day after day. There is a limit and there will have to be a very early limit to extracting money from the people, if any of us are to get a decent standard of living for himself or his family.

I am rather amused at the line-up that we see, particularly between the business people's interests and the shopkeepers' interests. It was very ably displayed by Deputy Barry tonight and Deputy Dockrell who spoke last week. They tried to play the fiddle and the Jew's harp together. They considered that, first, the business man is going to be put out of business. That means he is going to pay the 2½ per cent but on the other hand, every poor devil in the country is going to pay it. Which of them is right? Who is going to pay it? I suggest to the Minister for Finance that he will have some fun next April. When the income tax forms are filled in, he will find that the 2½ per cent is represented there in the claim for relief of income tax from every single one of them. Most of the bigger people can jolly well bear it. I was attacked here by Deputy P. O'Donnell the other night about the socks. What was the position about the socks? The phone from a Dublin draper to a Cork manufacturer was red hot for three days. One Cork manufacturer got an order for some £16,000 worth of goods in three days.

(South Tipperary): All socks?

In three days. Why? I am prepared to say that the ordinary man inside the counter in Dublin is as nationally minded as anyone else. One firm could boast that 65 per cent of the goods they were selling were of Irish manufacture and 35 per cent were of foreign manufacture. Why?

Within the past 12 months, there was an action taken in Cork by a draper who had been refused goods because he tried to sell at a lesser profit than 50 per cent. I discovered, as a result of my investigations, that they are getting 63 per cent on British goods sold here as against 50 per cent on home manufactured goods. A merchant in Cork came to me. He wanted to get butter. I was amazed at the quantity he wanted. His order for butter to a local creamery was 1,000 lbs per week. He was selling that butter across the counter at 3/11d a lb. Deputies know the price the grocers have to charge for it—4/3d That merchant was selling butter at that price to induce the ordinary housekeeper to come in for the cheap butter and to pay him the 50 per cent profit he was taking on nylons. Let us get clear on these things and understand what is happening. These people could afford to cut the price of a dozen of eggs by 1/- and to cut the price of vegetables because the manufacturers would refuse to supply them if they sold manufactured goods at a profit margin of less than 50 per cent.

The case was published in the public press within the past 12 months, for anybody to read. These are the conditions under which there are imports of £2 million or £3 million worth of foreign goods. There is a 63 per cent profit margin on them as against a 50 per cent profit margin on Irish-made drapery goods. If we studied other businesses, I am sure the same gap would be apparent.

Maize and wheat offals.

We would find the same gap. That gap is there. Deputy Barry alluded to unemployment in East Cork. On previous occasions I have quoted in this House the position that obtains there. Deputy Barry will say that all the people there are unemployed. I say they are all working. I shall quote General Costello as reported in the Cork Examiner of 17th April, 1963:

The General came to the question of the labour content and described this problem as his biggest headache. He will require a labour force of 500. This force will require a further labour force of 3,500 engaged on the land in fruit and vegetable growing. The biggest difficulty is to get that labour force in East Cork and the only way a labour force can be got there is to build houses for more people. At present there is no unemployment there to speak about.

That is General Costello's statement. I heard Deputy Treacy moaning about unemployment. I cannot see it. I do not know where it is. If there are unemployed persons within shooting range, here is a programme that is being carried out in Kerry, East Cork and West Cork. The factories will be completed and equipped by February next and will be ready to start production by June, 1964. There will be a factory in Kinsale, West Cork, North Kerry, South Kerry and East Cork. There will be 500 people per factory. That is 2,500 extra people to be employed.

There is clamour about the flight from the land. General Costello has stated that he will require 3,500 extra people on the land producing vegetables and fruit for each of those factories. That means 17,500 extra people on the land, a total of 20,000 extra persons employed. That is what some of the money in this Budget is required for and I for one have no apology to make in connection with it.

People bemoan the flight from the land and ask how the emigrants are to be got back. Deputy Dillon referred to the fellows who were closing the door and stealing away in the night. I say to Deputy Barry and the rest of them, let them go out and work their constituencies as I have worked mine and the same conditions will obtain in their constituencies as are described by General Costello, that he can find no unemployment to speak about. Let them go out and look for the industries to create employment. There is one-fifth, in one stroke, of the 100,000 extra jobs and that is in relation to only Cork and Kerry. I hope the number of factories will be trebled within the next few years and that there will be employment for people on the land that will not put them into competition with the gentlemen who are operating the 500-acre and 1,000-acre wheat ranches, who have driven the ordinary farmer doing rotation tillage out of the grain market. If we get a condition of affairs where there will be, not £6 a week, but £10 a week for the agricultural labourers, there will be a complete change in the whole aspect of rural Ireland. Under present conditions, no one could expect any man to work as a labourer on the land today.

People come to me on a Saturday night and say: "Martin, give me a note for steel." I give them a letter for Irish Steel and they start work at £11 a week. With overtime and everything else, they can earn up to £20 a week. In an ordinary week, the worker is finished on Friday night, and he can sit in a ditch and watch the farmer, or the fool who is working for him, working on Saturday and Sunday. We must change those conditions in rural Ireland or there will be no hope of holding the agricultural community on the land.

Shares are taken in industry and I have seen the manner in which they are taken. The farmer takes a block of shares for himself and a couple of shares for his sons and daughters. If he takes the contract from us, he may take a contract for seven acres of vegetables or fruit. There will be one acre for his son, and another acre for his daughter. The contract will be divided up among the family so that they will be interested in getting the vegetables or fruit for the industry. When one of those factories is standing it will definitely mean an increase of somewhere between £300,000 and £400,000 in the income of the area concerned.

Now let me deal with the cash. If £1,250,000 is required for the five factories, we expect to get £750,000 from the Industrial Credit Company development grants, and we will provide £500,000 between the Sugar Company and ourselves. That is a very different attitude from the attitude adopted by Deputy Sweetman towards land division and extension, as pointed out by the Minister for Lands. That is the difference between this Party here and you people over there. The first thing you people did was to take 1/- from the old age pensioners, and you have the same policy today.

That was the time when the Sugar Company was a white elephant?

That was the time when we wanted to build 15 houses in Ballinacurra. There was a water main running along the road but Deputy O'Donnell, on the instructions of Deputy Sweetman that there was no more money, said there was no water.

We built Youghal Bridge for you.

I brought Deputy O'Donnell down and I entertained him and I showed him the site on which there are 15 houses today.

I was glad to see the Deputy at the opening of Youghal Bridge.

The less Deputy O'Donnell says about Youghal Bridge the better.

It would not be there if the Deputy got his way.

I gave a fair description of Deputy O'Donnell's manoeuvres which were a triumph of democracy. A statement was read from his colleague from Donegal, Deputy Blaney——

The Minister was not there. The Parliamentary Secretary was there, and so was Deputy Corry.

The Minister's statement was read there. We were in favour of reconstructing the old bridge in Youghal, and Deputy O'Gorman and I called on Deputy O'Donnell, who was then Minister for Local Government, and asked him if he would receive the architect with the plans and specifications for reconstruction. He said he would and he appointed a time. We met him in his room that evening at four o'clock. Deputy O'Donnell was there in the armchair with one civil servant sitting on one arm of the chair, and another civil servant sitting on the other arm of the chair. We asked Deputy O'Donnell would he take the plans and specifications and have them examined by his engineers. Immediately one civil servant grabbed him by the arm and said: "You cannot do that, Mr. Minister." The other fellow leaned over from the other arm and said: "It is a most outrageous proposal, Mr. Minister", and the Minister said: "I am very sorry, gentlemen". That was the triumph of democracy, as understood in the Department of Local Government in Deputy O'Donnell's time.

I did not throw you out as Deputy Smith did.

I am giving the facts, and you cannot deny them.

Would Deputy Corry get back to the Budget?

He is more entertaining this way.

That is the manner in which those people worked. Deputy O'Donnell was told plainly and bluntly: "Stop housing. There are to be no more grants for housing because we cannot pay them. Stop the works." Deputy Blowick was told by the same voice to stop land division or any improvement to the land. That is the self-same policy which was handed down from the days when Deputy Blythe was Minister for Finance and announced a cut of 1/- in the old age pensions. That was their way of meeting difficulties: "Stop work". It took us a long time to get over it.

It did, indeed.

Those houses are now built and there are families living in them.

And everyone is happy.

Deputy O'Donnell could not find any water.

I think the Deputy has water on the brain.

Unfortunately, you could not find any and 15 families were left without homes, which was a small matter for Deputy O'Donnell. He put them down on a list as some of the 300,000 who had left the country.

Deputy O'Sullivan was anxious today to have my views on the Road Fund. I will give them very briefly. So much of that money has accumulated over the years that it is time now it was turned to some useful purpose. It is a bit like the Regional Hospital proposed for Cork. We have already spent £88,000 on paper in connection with that hospital. As one fellow said: "That is only Sweep money". I suppose the other is only Road Fund money. A fortnight ago, I asked the county engineer the cost of 1.3 miles of road from Kilcloyne Bridge to Carrigtwohill. The cost was £39,700. That road was so wide that a fellow tried to by-pass Carrigtwohill by going in over the ditch.

With regard to the regional hospital scheme, every three years, the boys are called up to Dublin and asked to prepare a new scheme in keeping with the latest improvements and every three years there were new plans. To date, it has cost £88,000. The position is somewhat similar in regard to the Road Fund. What is needed in this country is, first, employment for our people at home and, secondly, decent homes for them to live in. Now the Minister for Local Government will have to change his attitude in regard to these provisions governing housing.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy O'Donnell, the then Minister, invited a man to come over from England and bring him proposals. What happened? Two civil servants came in and hounded the Minister and he had to tell the poor man to go away home. That was supposed to be Government policy. There was the poor Minister sitting in the chair and the two advisers, one on each side of him, hounding him down.

Major General Costello was anxious to expand Mallow to provide more opportunities for the farmers and more employment in the area. He is at a standstill because he cannot get houses for the workers. I do not intend to let that position develop in East Cork and I give an assurance now that the first moment the sod is turned for that factory, we will start work on houses. There are too many little regulations. The instructions given to Deputy O'Donnell when he was Minister for Local Government are still there and the civil servants have not yet succeeded in getting them out of their heads.

That was seven years ago.

Yes, but they are still thinking about them. The difficulty is that one can never change them. I remember when there was a man in the Department of Agriculture who would allow you to buy nothing but a Scotch beef bull. That was the policy for 40 years in the Department of Agriculture. When he died, the Scotch beef bull died with him. But that is the condition of affairs. Those regulations are made and they are never forgotten.

With regard to housing, the worker is there in a house with his wife and family. His sons grow up and get employment in a local industry. They, in turn, want to get married and settle down. The subsidy for a house for such people is cut by the Department because they are coming out of a fit house. There is a second regulation then that a man must be married before a house can be built for him. When two young people get married now, they are apparently expected to live under a bush for the first year.

These are the conditions that cry out for change. I suggest that the Road Fund moneys be diverted to housing instead of burying it in roads. There is too much red tape and too many regulations. One of my greatest regrets is that the Minister for Finance did not carry out the reduction in staff he announced a few years ago. There are too many in these Departments and all these regulations are inventions to keep them busy. I suggest the Minister should get to work now and cut down the staffs of these Departments.

I am surprised Deputy O'Donnell is against this Budget. Is the Minister not giving him a turnover and an entertainment relief?

Those are some of the things that are required. I believe that the Road Fund money should be turned over to a more useful type of work. We have come to a stage in regard to the Road Fund when the two angels Deputy O'Donnell had at Youghal Bridge are endeavouring to find ways and means of spending money to the annoyance of the general public. I saw what they endeavoured to do within three mile of my own place. They endeavoured to bury another £40,000 or £50,000 in by-passing a village and running a new road through a bog just because they had the money there and did not know what to do with it. I am glad the Minister for Finance knocked that on the head. We have come to the point that these people do not know what to do with the money, they have so much of it. We have come to the point where they are doing grave damage to the ordinary people. If you by-pass a village, it will become a derelict village within two years. I have seen an example of it on my own doorstep and that kind of thing must be changed.

I would like to finish up with Deputy O'Donnell by telling him this much, that the extras on the new Youghal Bridge will be about as high as the contract price and that the angel who cut his estimate by £180,000 and knocked out the reconstruction did not do much good because it is going to cost that money anyway.

You had great praise for him the day it was opened.

He will be amused at some of the replies that will be extracted here within the next 12 months about this matter. I was disappointed about the rate position. I was disappointed in this way, that we are in competition with the farmers in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In preparation for the Common Market we have certain reductions in the duties on goods coming in here and I expected that the preparation that would be given to the agricultural community would be to place them on an equal footing with the farmers in Northern Ireland. They pay no rates on agricultural land and we here are entitled to the same treatment.

I cannot see any ground for the continuation of the present system of rating as far as agricultural land is concerned. I think there will have to be a complete change. It is unjust on the face of it that I am expected to produce in competition with my brother farmer across the border or the farmer in Britain. If I am expected to do that I must be put in the same position as they are and because I am not in that position is largely the reason that there is a gap between the wages of agricultural labourers in this country and those in Britain and Northern Ireland. That gap is there. The gap is now so pronounced in constituencies like mine, where we have pretty full employment, that there are very few agricultural labourers left on the land.

The farmers' sons are following them. It is very hard to expect a farmer's son to remain working at a wage of about £6 a week when he can get £12 a week in Irish Steel, or in Rushbrooke Dockyard or in Dwyers in Midleton. They will not do it and that position is very largely responsible for the drift from the land. Whether we will succeed in bringing them back to work in the new food processing project is something that will have to be worked out. It is the only hope we have left unless the land is going to be completely derelict.

It is the last chance.

Yes, and we are doing it because we have a Government here to help us.

And the sugar company.

The sugar company is practically a Government-owned concern.

But when it was first set up, it was described as a white elephant.

The sugar company was set up by us. There was no sugar company before we came in.

In columns 2041 and 2042 of the Official Report of the 18th June, 1947, we find this:

There remains beet—the blessings of beet! Some day, and in the not far distant time, our people will have to ask themselves whether it is in the best interests of the community as a whole to continue the production of sugar from beet in this country at an annual cost to the community of £3,000,000 sterling. That is what it costs in normal times to keep the beet industry going in this country. If, instead of growing beet and converting it into sugar, we import refined sugar into this country there will be £3,000,000 sterling more for the national exchequer and that £3,000,000 can be used to increase children's allowances in every home in Ireland from the 2/6d per child to 5/- per child, and the land vacated by that crop can be used for the production of profitable agricultural produce which will help to finance essential imports and to enrich the farmers who live upon the land.

That is a statement made by Deputy O'Donnell's leader in this House. That was his opinion of the sugar company and of the beet industry. How many people would they throw out of employment if they made that move? What is the use in Deputy O'Donnell trying to hit his head against a stone wall like that. That is the policy advocated by his leader in this House.

On the 18th June, 1947, six months before he became Minister for Agriculture. You put him in as Minister for Agriculture, although he had that policy.

We did not. The people did, and a very good Minister he was.

I wish to quote from column 2048, volume 106 of the Official Report of 18th June, 1947 where Deputy Dillon said:

We are subsidising butter production to the tune of £2,000,000 per annum. How long will that go on? Do we expect butter to get dearer in the markets of the world? Do we expect a time in the early future when the price of milk will become so adjusted——

That was the bob a gallon.

——that it will be possible to suspend this subsidy or do we intend to continue producing milk for conversion into butter in creameries at an annual cost to the taxpayer of £2,000,000 per annum? I want to go on record most emphatically that I think such a policy is sheer insanity and is purely pursued for the purpose of maintaining the prestige of incompetents in the offices of the Minister for Agriculture ....

Deputy O'Donnell did not know that was the policy enunciated by his leader.

They would not have the Deputy as Minister for Agriculture. He wanted to become Minister and nobody would have him.

Here is what Deputy Dillon said about wheat at column 2050 of the same volume.

I think the Deputy told me himself he was going to be Minister.

I quote:

... since the emergency, we had the enthralling, stimulating and surprising experience of eating bread made out of Irish wheat. Before you ate it you had to hold it out in your hands, squeeze the water out of it, then tease it out and make up your mind whether it was a handful of boot polish or a handful of bread. If it was boot polish, you put it on your boots or shoes and if it was bread, you tried to masticate it, if you were fit.

That is Deputy Dillon's opinion of bread made from Irish wheat. Then we have to listen to that man talking about farmers and the price they are getting for wheat.

A Deputy

What about the bread, butter and sugar?

We did not tax them as you have done in this Budget.

In regard to sugar, their idea was to close down the four beet factories, disemploy the men and let them join the thousands of unemployed who have gone and that we have been hearing about. While Deputy Dillon was Minister for Agriculture, he paid £12 a ton more for foreign sugar than was paid for the best white sugar leaving any of our four factories. When the gentlemen opposite choose a man with all those ideas and with that policy and put him at the head of the class as boss, what can you expect?

Fianna Fáil did not put the Deputy at the head of the class. They kept him very much in the back benches.

You would be just as helpless as Deputy O'Donnell was as Minister for Local Government when he had somebody on one side saying: "You cannot do that, Mr. Minister" and somebody on the other side saying: "An outrageous proposal." That is the way the Department of Local Government was conducted when Deputy O'Donnell was Minister there. His leader's policy has not changed one iota since then.

They refused to take the Deputy as Minister.

Here is the shadow Minister for Agriculture. Here is his opinion of the farmers and yet he had the nerve to stand up tonight and shout about the penny a gallon for milk. This is what he said at column 1054, volume 199, of the Official Report of 5th February, 1963:

From two-thirds to three-quarters of the milk being delivered to creameries here is unfit for manufacture into cheese and the higherpriced milk products because it is too dirty.

His leader is training him well.

They would not have anything to do with the Deputy. They refused to have him as Minister.

If I were responsible for making a statement like that in this House, I would never again show my face in Louth. I went to the cheese factories in Mitchelstown and Mallow and I found on inquiry that not one per cent of the milk sent to these factories had to be rejected as dirty. It must be the farmers' wives and daughters in County Louth who are dirty. What I have read out about beet, sugar, milk, butter and wheat is Fine Gael policy enunciated by their leader. Nevertheless, they pay lip service to the farmers, pretend to be sorry for them and to sympathise with them.

They will not listen to the Deputy over there.

But the farmers have not such short memories.

They will never make the Deputy Minister for Agriculture.

I was here 20 years before Deputy O'Donnell and I shall be here 20 years after him.

Perhaps the Deputy would come back to the Budget?

I am just giving the difference between the Budget those people will bring in and what those people want to do and the Budget brought in by the Minister for Finance. Let us have an examination of both sides. Not alone will those people who are now opposite immediately stop the five processing factories from being operated but they will close the beet factories, the creameries——

The cheese factory.

And the cheese factories. Is that not what they would do? Is that not their line of policy? What is the use, then, of all their talk? Where is the alternative to offer to the people?

Fianna Fáil will not accept you, anyway, as Minister. There is no use in your preaching. They will not accept your policy, anyway.

Where is the alternative between us and the unfortunate Minister who sat down and was told: "You cannot do that, Mr. Minister"? After all, the Minister is appointed and he is supposed to be the boss.

They never made you the boss yet and they will not.

To tell you the truth, I had the utmost sympathy that day——

You had the utmost ambition.

Acting Chairman

Would Deputy Corry address his remarks to the Chair?

I certainly am doing so. I am pointing out these facts and this difference in policy. Oh, here he is now—I am glad Deputy Donegan has come in. He will have to do something or every blooming girl in Louth will be unmarried. No farmer will go into Louth for a wife. He said all the girls in Louth were dirty—— that they were milking dirty milk. That is the difficulty I see in all this. The more you examine the provisions of this Budget, the more you realise the difference in policy between the two Parties, the more you realise the difference between, as I said, policies—and that difference started from their very foundation. It started when Mr. Blythe, the then Minister for Finance, stepped in here and cut the old age pension by 1/- a week. It started then and it was followed up the moment they got into difficulties here by Deputy Sweetman warning Deputy P. O'Donnell who was then Minister for Local Government: "You cannot pass any more houses. No more houses may be built. You stop that game. No more money for you."

They will never make you Minister for Agriculture, no matter what you say.

Then he went across to Deputy Blowick, who was then Minister for Lands and said: "You will have to stop this land division and land improvement; that cannot go on any longer." That is the point we are watching. That is why we have to make up our minds, as far as we are concerned, that the people will not be inflicted with that kind of policy any more, a policy which did not work for Deputy Sweetman. He was not able to clear the road with that kind of game. He had to run out. He ran out after three years. He ran out while he had a complete majority in the House. He threw up the sponge and ran out. I do not know why, but he did it, anyway. "No more dough." I do not want——

——ministerial office; you are dead anxious to get it but you never will.

I do not. That policy failed. You got an opportunity of being a man and you were not a man: you were a mouse.

If it is in order to call one Deputy a mouse, is it in order to call him a goat ?

He is calling the Chair a mouse.

Acting Chairman

The interruptions should cease and Deputy Corry should continue and confine his remarks to the Budget.

He has nothing to say on that.

I am sorry that a person who occupied the responsible position of Minister in this Parliament—for a while, anyway—should be so rude. I think the Deputy should learn at least to conduct himself. I was queried here a while ago by Deputy Barry about the land policy of our Minister for Lands. I had a couple of experiences of it already. In one case, I came up here to him. I phoned him on a Tuesday and came up here on a Wednesday morning. He had the Land Commission below on that farm on Thursday and bought it. As a result, seven decent farms were made out of seven hovels for seven uneconomic holders. He made seven decent farms out of it. That is the kind of Minister for Lands we want— not a fellow who will be pulled by the arm by a civil servant and told: "You cannot do that, Mr. Minister." I had the same experience down in Ballinacurra a fortnight ago and again the Minister for Lands stepped in and did his job.

The other Cork Deputies must not be doing anything.

What about Glencolmcille, with your 5,000 gallons of water a day? Cabbage gardens are all you want up there. Stop crowing about that kind of thing. The funny part of it is that the Labour Party agree with me.

God bless us.

They agree in as far as passing the money is concerned. They agree the money is wanted but they do not agree as to how the money is to be found.

Hear, hear.

We enjoy Jimmy O'Dea.

I say that the whole of this could be boiled down very easily. Let the Minister for Finance have a look at his income tax return next year. He will see blazoned on the front of every business man's docket for relief, that 2½ per cent: it will be out there. The first demand that will be made will be that 2½ per cent. Deputy Barry says the shopkeepers have to pay it. Deputy Dockrell was divided. He said it would break the shopkeepers and the next moment he said that someone else would be involved. I suggest from what I have seen of the business people who are selling the butter for 7d a lb less than the full price, eggs for 1/- a dozen less than the full price, and so on, that those people can very well afford to carry the 2½ per cent. That is particularly so when I read in the public press of an action taken by a shopkeeper who was refused supply by a manufacturer because he was not prepared to charge 50 per cent profit. It was not 10 or 20 per cent profit—it was 50 per cent profit——

It must have been a Fianna Fáil wholesaler.

——and 63 per cent that one firm here in Dublin were getting from selling British socks. That is the position. I shall not hold up the House. I am sorry Deputy O'Donnell held me up for so long that I went beyond my time. I see no reason for any complaint.

I was one of the first to approve of this Budget because I am conscious of the fact that when you want something, the wherewithal has to be there to pay for it. Judging by many of the speakers I have listened to here, they want something, but they think it comes from a hole in the ground or that the Government turn it out by machine. I am satisfied there would be no reliefs this year, either for the farmer or the social beneficiary, unless we have this turnover tax. It is on the strength of this tax that £4½ million will be given back by way of relief to the people on social benefits and to the farming community. If the measure were defeated here, there would be no relief for them.

In view of the fact that the Budget was not balanced, nobody expected any reliefs this year. I was not expecting them. If anybody wants to turn down the reliefs, they can, therefore, defeat this proposal in the Budget, but they will be denying these reliefs not only in respect of this year but also in respect of the following year. The reason I supported the Budget was that I saw straight away that a surplus would be available to enable the Government to balance the Budget not only this year but every other year, that the money would be available to meet the case of people looking for reliefs. There is no other way. The tariff on imported goods is to be reduced by 10 per cent annually and will mean, therefore, a reduction in revenue.

I look upon a Government as the parents of a family. The Government are the parents of the State. Their job is to try to provide for the family. The only way that can be done is to ask those members of the family earning to contribute sufficient to take care of those who may not be earning and of children too young to earn. When the Government find they have no money and that some members of the family are in need, they simply have no choice but to ask those who have to give more.

I believe the Opposition are appealing to the worst side, to the greedy and mean side of human nature, by seeking to deny the Government this contribution to help the needy. Over the years, we had people demanding increased social benefits. I was one of them, but I always adopted a reasonable approach. I have learned from my experience of municipal affairs that when something is wanted it must be paid for. For years, I heard talk about a reduction in differential rents. Some of the Parties were not satisfied to reduce them by a couple of bob; they wanted to reduce them by pounds. I asked myself how much would that cost. I realised it would cost hundreds of thousands to the ratepayers and I said that was unreasonable. You cannot expect the ratepayers, who are already contributing largely to housing, to contribute hundreds of thousands more in order to reduce differential rents to that extent.

I do not like people making outlandish demands and not considering what they will cost—people who even have the nerve then to vote against the provision of the money. I look on those people as hypocrites. We hear demands from those people all the year. They must admit all these things cost millions, and they ought to have the decency to support the Government, whom they expect will do the dirty work. Some of those people thrive on misery. They look on it as a sure thing lobby in an election. There are Deputies here who would be disappointed if misery disappeared, because they would have to do more constructive work to get votes. The whole attitude is one of never being satisfied, of always making little of what the Government do, but at the same time refusing point blank to own up to their responsibilities in voting the money. They want to be on both sides—the side of the people who want more and the side of those who must pay. Surely that is a two faced policy?

In regard to the Budget proposals themselves, I am satisfied this turnover tax is asking for money only from those who can afford it. It does not create any burden for those who cannot afford it, workers with families. If you analyse it carefully, it means that it is only the single worker or the worker with no family who will be asked to pay 2/-, 3/-, or 4/- a week. The worker with children will have to pay little or nothing. The people on social benefits are not only getting sufficient to cover this tax but they are, in addition, getting as much again.

This is a long-term policy on the part of the Government. I believe that next year, as well as balancing the Budget, the Government will have, as was admitted by Deputy J. A. Costello, £6 million or £7 million in hand. Deputy Costello asked the Minister what he wanted it for, and I told Deputy Costello what the Minister could do with it, that he could give it back in increased social welfare benefits. I believe he will do that. I expect, in view of the statement by the Taoiseach that they were moving to the left, that he will have that money. I hold that this proposal, which simply asks those who have to give to those who have not, will be a new deal for those looking for relief.

As far as I can see, people do not want this tax to be a success. Obviously, if it is a success and if the Government are able when all the criticism is over to meet those people looking for relief next year, the Government will get the credit for doing that. Of course, the Opposition do not like that. I believe the opposition is mainly political. There is a fear the Government may be able to meet all those demands and satisfy the people with genuine grievances. It is because of that they are worrying and putting up such opposition. It is extraordinary that you have Deputies here representing workers who seem to be on the same front as big business. Everyone is attacking the turnover tax —big business and those who represent the working class. There is something funny about that. The working class are not worrying much, although we hear the argument here that the money is going to come from the working class. It is the chambers of commerce, the bookies, the dance hall proprietors, big business who are doing all the worrying. They are saying they will not be able to get it back.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 2nd May, 1963.
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