Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 12 Nov 1963

Vol. 205 No. 9

Private Members' Business. - Telefís Éireann: Supply of Information by Minister—Motion.

Mr. Corish

I move:

That Dáil Éireann is of the opinion that the attitude of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs in declining to supply important information to Deputies as to the activities of Telefís Éireann is contrary to the assurances given by the Minister during the debate on the Broadcasting Authority Bill, 1959; Dáil Éireann, therefore, calls on the Government to arrange that all reasonable information will be supplied by the Minister to Deputies when requested.

Since the establishment of Telefís Éireann, there have been many complaints from Deputies to the effect that the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs refuses to supply certain information when requested to do so, especially by Deputies in the Opposition Parties. This motion has been tabled by the Labour Party because we believe it right that the Minister should supply reasonable information to the House and, through the House, to the public.

Apart from certain sections, the Broadcasting Authority Bill, 1960, had a relatively easy passage through the House. The Minister's move to establish Telefís Éireann was generally acclaimed by Deputies from both sides. Deputies were pleased that the Minister had approached the establishment of the Broadcasting Authority in the manner in which he did. He appeared to be a very reasonable Minister when piloting that Bill through both Houses. He gave certain assurances in regard to the establishment of Telefís Éireann, which were designed to dispel the doubts and fears expressed by Deputies from both sides.

I want to preface my remarks by saying that this refusal of the Minister to transmit certain information to the House is not peculiar to him. What we find frustrating and what the people cannot understand is the reluctance, not alone of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, but of other Ministers with responsibility for semi-State bodies, to divulge what we consider to be information the public want.

When piloting the Bill through the House, the Minister assured us that the Government would be responsible for Telefís Éireann and that he, as their instrument in this House, would be responsible for Telefís Éireann to Deputies and the public outside. The Minister and other members of the Government should make a reappraisal of the situation as far as semi-State organisations are concerned, particularly Telefís Éireann. People with television sets subscribe £4 per annum, and will subscribe £5 per annum. That money is not given to Telefís Éireann as such; the licences are issued by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs through the various post offices throughout the country. In fact, therefore, the people are paying the Government for this service. Therefore, I do not think it unreasonable that the Minister should be expected to give some information, what we regard as reasonable information, to the public through Deputies who put down questions to him concerning Radio Éireann and Telefís Éireann.

I suppose it is a cliché to say—the Minister himself has said it many times and, no doubt, will say it again tonight—that nobody wants to interfere with the day-to-day affairs of Telefís Éireann. Nobody wants to interfere with the day-to-day administration of CIE, Bord na Móna, the ESB or any of the other State companies. The complaint I make to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is in respect of all the State companies and the reluctance of the various Ministers to give information to the public.

I do not want to make any strong point about criticism of the type of programmes shown on Telefís Éireann, because I do not consider that I, as an individual, am a custodian of the public taste. Therefore, it would be useless for me to criticise the Minister or the Authority for this or that programme, or to say whether the public want céilí music, cowboy films, sport, ballet or dance music. Because public taste differs so much, the difficulty of Telefís Éireann and Radio Éireann is to try to suit the public generally and not to cater for one section alone. If one were to make any general criticism of Telefís Éireann to the Minister, it is in respect of the proportion of live programmes as against canned programmes.I appreciate the difficulty of having an emphasis on live programmes because of their cost.

During the debate on the Broadcasting Authority Bill, the Minister said he had responsibility for the general type of programme shown on Telefís Éireann. He is also charged with ensuring that Telefís Éireann will put on programmes that will not offend, that will encourage Irish culture and language, and so on. Therefore, my general criticism to the Minister is that far too many canned programmes of an inferior type are shown. I do not know the reason for this. There may be a financial reason, as I have said; but one is inclined to suspect—this was mentioned during the debate on the Bill and I make no apology for mentioning it again now—the fact that there is at least one person in Telefís Éireann who has a financial interest in these things.

I am posing the question whether or not the interest some people in Telefís Éireann have in these canned programmes is responsible for the preponderance of canned programmes and cheap American films. I do not think the Minister can discount or discard the opinions he gets in this House with regard to either his Department or Telefís Éireann. Whether anybody likes it or not the three Deputies who are now on the Fianna Fáil benches or the six or seven of us who are on this side of the House represent the views of the people. As the people pay for Telefís Éireann, our views must be listened to. I know the Taoiseach has not much regard for Dáil Éireann and has less regard for those of us who are in opposition, but whether he likes it or not there are so many people in County Wexford who elected me, so many people in Meath who elected Deputy Tully, so many people in Waterford who elected Deputy Lynch, so many in Cavan who elected Deputy Dolan, so many in Leix-Offaly who elected Deputy Egan—and Deputy McQuillan——

Mr. McQuillan

They are getting fewer over there every day.

Mr. Corish

The point I want to make is this: While we do not want to interfere unduly in Telefís Éireann, our opinions must be heard. The Minister himself acknowledged that in the debate on the Broadcasting Authority Bill, when, in reply to a contribution made by Deputy Dr. Browne, he said that in respect of any programme which offended the public taste in the country it was desirable that such a programme should be discussed in Dáil Éireann by way of a motion. He said that in the heel of the hunt he was responsible for the overall policy of Telefís Éireann and for the overall presentation of the various plays, acts, discussions, music and all that sort of thing on Telefís Éireann. Therefore, as far as we are concerned, our idea in bringing this motion before the House is to get the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs to accept, and to act upon, the responsibility which he claimed he had for Telefís Éireann when he was piloting the Broadcasting Authority Bill through the House.

Telefís Éireann is charged in Section 26 of the Bill with producing an annual report which shall also include information on such particular aspect of the Authority's proceedings as the Minister may specify. Now, Telefís Éireann has been in operation for practically two years and I should like to ask the Minister this particular question.Has he in the past two years asked Telefís Éireann to report to him on any aspect of the Authority's proceedings because I suspect that the Minister believes Telefís Éireann is going along swimmingly and there is no reason for him to interfere? I think it is not so. As the Minister has a responsibility, I think he should acquaint himself with the activities of Telefís Éireann and of the various people in it because, as I say, he is charged with that responsibility under the Act, and he accepted it, when the Act was being discussed in this House. Therefore, perhaps, he would be able to tell us whether or not he did, in fact, ask for any particular aspect of the Authority's proceedings to be included in the annual report of Radio Éireann, which embraces both Telefís Éireann and Radio Éireann.

I have the third annual report in front of me. It is, like all semi-State body reports, a very elaborate sort of document. One would not imagine they were in the dire financial straits they pretend to be in when one considers the manner in which these documents are produced. There is very little information in it which the people do not know already. Granted there are some tables which show the hours devoted to news, public affairs, comedy, westerns, documentaries and all that sort of thing, but, generally speaking, so far as I can see, it is merely an effort to fill up so many pages in order to comply with the legislation that they must produce an annual report. There is one thing which intrigues me, something to which I shall refer later, but I should like to read an extract from page 9 of the report which says:

The Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960, requires the Authority to be impartial in matters of public controversy.Such impartiality is fundamental to the concept of a national service; a complementary duty, which must equally be recognised, is to bring issues of controversy and debate before the public. Freedom of the press is secured, very largely, by the existence of different journals of varying opinions.

That is very interesting in view of what happened recently. I should like to come back again to the role of the Minister in Telefís Éireann and Radio Éireann. I refer to Deputy Dr. Browne's question to the Minister with regard to the raising of matters in Dáil Éireann. I should like, therefore, to refer to col. 1575, vol. 180 of the Official Report dated 31st March, 1960. First of all, let me quote the Minister at column 1575 in which he says:

If it should happen that there be a television show that would not measure up to our standards, it would be necessary for the Minister, or the Government, to take immediate cognisance of that, and for the Authority itself to take cognisance of it and do something about it to make certain there would not be a repetition of shows that were substandard, so far as our ideas of good shows are concerned.

He says "it would be necessary for the Minister, or the Government, to take immediate cognisance of that". The invariable reply of the Minister is that he will not or he cannot interfere and he wants to allow the authorities in Telefís Éireann to make up their own minds and to use their own judgment.

I had occasion, as a matter of fact, to bring to notice, by way of Parliamentary question, a film which I thought should not be shown on Telefís Éireann. I must confess some of my colleagues on both sides of the House disagreed with me that it was an objectionable film. Be that as it may, when I raised it with the Minister, he had not even seen it. I do not think the Minister took the trouble to ask Telefís Éireann what the show was. His whole attitude was that they have their own form of censorship in Telefís Éireann and he was not going to interfere with them. That was contrary to what the Minister said here during the debate on the Broadcasting Authority Bill. He alleged there was some sort of liaison between Telefís Éireann and the Censorship Board but we have since discovered that there is no such liaison. The Minister admitted, in this House, so far as censorship was concerned, that Telefís Éireann had their own brand of it.

When the Minister had spoken about the responsibility of the Minister and the Government for shows which were considered to be objectionable, Deputy Dr. Browne asked:

Will the Minister be responsible to the Dáil in that regard?

The Minister in reply said:

In the last analysis, the Government are responsible for the setting up of the Authority and we could not shed our responsibility in that matter.

Deputy Dr. Browne said:

I want to ask the Minister shall we be allowed to ask questions if we dislike a particular programme?

The Minister replied:

It will be possible to have the matter brought to the attention of the Minister and to the attention of the Authority. I would say there would not be anything to prevent a Deputy raising the matter in this House.

The Official Report then continues:

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins: By question?

Mr. Hilliard: It could be a motion. Once the Government are responsible for the appointment of the members of the Authority, I do not see how they could shed any responsibility in that particular matter.

Throughout that, I think there is a definite acceptance by the Minister of responsibility for things that happen in Telefís Éireann. When the Minister invites Deputies to put down questions or to table motions the inference is that the Minister will answer them. Our experience over the past two years is that the Minister has refused to answer any but easy questions. He will not answer the difficult ones. If you ask him any of the difficult questions, he will say the matter is the responsibility of Telefís Éireann and that under the Act he is precluded from interfering in the day-to-day affairs of Telefís Éireann.

Mr. S. Dunne

Where did you pick up Williams?

Mr. Corish

Deputy Dillon did not see eye to eye with Deputy Dr. Browne or with the Minister. He questioned the Minister on this and suggested it would be wrong for the Minister to interfere to the extent Deputy Dr. Browne thought he should interfere and that the Minister thought he and the Government could interfere. In reply to Deputy Dillon's speech, in which he disagreed with Deputy Dr. Browne and with the Minister, the Minister had this to say, as reported at column 1578 of the Official Report, Vol. 180:

Mr. Hilliard: I do not want any doubt to exist in regard to this matter. When Deputy Dr. Browne asked the question, I assumed he was making reference to a programme that would be regarded by the people as generally objectionable.I was not dealing with any particular item in a programme, in a different class of a programme. Take a situation in which you would have a general objection expressed, say, at county council meetings or at other meetings at which our people come together, similar to a situation which developed recently as a result of a programme from another broadcasting service. If such an objectionable programme were put out by our broadcasting service and our people took grave exception to it and so expressed themselves, I think it would be very hard for a Minister to resist a discussion on the matter in this House, a matter that was of vital interest and which so affected the moral standards of our people. It is true that the Authority will be an autonomous Authority and that the Minister will not have any interference whatsoever with the day-to-day programmes of that Authority but we have an over-riding responsibility to our people in the matter referred to by Deputy Dr. Browne. I think I would be failing in my duty to the House and to the country if I gave any type of answer other than the answer I have given to Deputy Dr. Browne.

That was that Deputy Dr. Browne could ask questions; that Deputy Dr. Browne or any Deputy could put down a motion about Telefís Éireann programmes.Our experience in the past two years has been that the Minister has decided he will not interfere in any way with the running of Telefís Éireann.

I want to say this now, without any disrespect to the Chair. Whilst we are very annoyed and frustrated by the attitude of the Minister in refusing to answer these questions, I would point out that there are many other questions which the Ceann Comhairle, by reason of his judgment and in accordance with his interpretation of the Broadcasting Authority Act, has to refuse.

The tone of the Minister in that debate on the Broadcasting Authority Bill, 1959, was that he was trying to be helpful. Many controversial questions have been asked of the Minister with regard to Professor Williams, and so on. However, questions have been asked here in good faith but for some reason the Minister refuses to answer them. That is what annoys us more than anything else. The impression given by the Minister to the House is that there is something to hide. I do not think there may be much to hide in Telefís Éireann.

There is a lot that can be hidden in every organisation and, maybe, every political Party. However, the Minister gives the same impression as his colleague, the Minister for Transport and Power, which is that there is something to hide in relation to State companies. I do not think he can allege that Deputies in their questions have been trying to pry unduly into the affairs of State companies or have been prying about individuals, and so on, in Telefís Éireann or Radio Éireann.

The Minister is well able to answer the easy questions. That shows up his inconsistency, as is the case with his colleague, the Minister for Transport and Power, in relation to questions about State companies. However, questions of general interest to Deputies and to the public will not be answered. If you ask a question about the placing of contracts, and so on, you will get an answer if it is not controversial but you will get no reply to a question, say, asking about the filling of a post, whether it was by an examination, whether there was a competition.

Mr. S. Dunne

You will not get it past the Chair, not alone as far as the Minister. It is a damn scandal.

Mr. Corish

I have many examples of the types of questions asked of the Minister. I do not want to weary the House but some of this might be interesting.As reported at column 360, Volume 197 of the Official Report, in reply to Questions Nos. 127 and 128 by Deputy Treacy and Deputy Rooney in regard to the Irish language on Telefís Éireann, the Minister replied as follows:

Mr. Hilliard: With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to deal with Questions Nos. 127 and 128 together.

I have seen statements by various bodies and individuals regarding the use of the Irish language on Telefís Éireann.

By the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960, the Authority is given the maximum freedom regarding programmes and Section 17 places on it the obligation of bearing constantly in mind the national aim of restoring the Irish language and of endeavouring to promote the attainment of this aim.

I believe the Authority should be given time to set up the service— the provincial transmitters are not yet in operation—and to explore all the possibilities, financial and otherwise, before it can reasonably be criticised for failure in any particular direction. I know the Authority is concerned about the language position and has already noticeably increased the Irish content of the programmes.

That reply was made on 31st October, 1962. I questioned the Minister on another occasion in regard to his obligations and those of the Authority under Section 17 of this Act. I was pushed aside: the Minister had the utmost confidence in the Authority.

Everybody must know the policy of the Labour Party in regard to the Irish language. We do not want to see it treated as it has been treated and as it is still being treated, namely, from a compulsory point of view. I believe Telefís Éireann is a good medium for the teaching of the language.In the past 12 months, the time given to the Irish language on Telefís Éireann was less than that given to it in the previous 12 months. I should like the Minister to check on that point.

It is the stated policy of the Government to promote the Irish language. They have a duty to ensure that the best use is made of television and broadcasting for the promotion of the Irish language. On Telefís Éireann, that is done admirably in many respects by many of its artistes. Every Monday night there is the feature of a ventriloquist with a doll. The doll speaks in Irish and the ventriloquist speaks in English. I believe that that is one of the best methods available to the children of this country to learn Irish. They could learn more Irish through such a programme than they could from any of the text books. I do not want to talk about the Irish language tonight but I want to say that as far as Section 17 is concerned, the Minister seems to be reluctant to ensure that it is being properly operated by the Telefís Éireann Authority.

I have many examples of the reluctance of the Minister to answer questions in the House about the Authority for which he has responsibility. On 4th April, 1962, in volume 194, column 1194 Deputy Dr. Browne asked the Minister:

Whether in view of the recent report of the Royal College of Physicians which has established without doubt that cigarette smoking causes cancer of the lung he will use the powers available to him to direct Telefís Éireann to reject advertisements for cigarettes on their programmes.

The Minister replied:

The answer is "No."

The Official Report continues:

Dr. Browne: The Minister has a certain moral responsibility to prevent the improper use of Telefís Éireann for advertisements. Cigarettes are both dangerous and poisonous.

Mr. Hilliard: The Oireachtas, in its wisdom, took that matter out of my hands and placed it in the hands of the Authority.

That is cod. I am not saying whether the Minister should or should not be in favour of these advertisements but what I do object to is his saying he has no responsibility. That is too easy a role for the Minister.

I do not know whether I should read out all the questions I have here because every Deputy knows, particularly Deputy T. Lynch, of the frustration there is in asking either Deputy Childers or Deputy Hilliard to reply to questions regarding their Department.

Section 18 is the interesting section of this Act. Unfortunately, I have left it in my office but it talks about the presentation of views and the presentation of controversial subjects objectively and impartially. Deputy Tully reminds me that the Minister in volume 180, column 1595 said:

The Government will have to be reminded that in Section 18 the Authority is obliged to maintain impartiality in the presentation of news and public discussion.

At that stage the Minister should blush.

I do not want to give the impression that I am against political discussion on Telefís Éireann. On the contrary, I should like to see much more of it, both on Telefís Éireann and Radio Éireann. But I would not be in favour of it in the manner in which it was presented on last Wednesday night week when Professor Desmond Williams was interviewed by one of the reporters of Telefís Éireann. I want to preface my remarks by saying that I think Professor Williams is entitled to his views, that he is entitled to describe me as being stupid and a bad tactician, that he is entitled to criticise Deputy Dillon and the Fine Gael Party, that he is entitled to criticise the Labour Party, but I do not think that he should be afforded the medium of Telefís Éireann to do so. I do not think he should have been allowed to do that. I am told that his views on the various political Parties in this country are well known.

I would say that the Director of Telefís Éireann should be taken to task about this matter. I am sure the Minister has already taken him to task for allowing this one individual, whose political views are generally known, to use Telefís Éireann for commenting in the way he did on one of the most important discussions and vital votes in the history of the present Dáil. The Minister did not see that telecast. I did not see it, but I checked pretty well and I spoke to people who saw and heard Professor Desmond Williams and his presentation of the situation as it was in Dáil Éireann that night would not be described as being either objective or impartial.

He is entitled to his views but it would only be common intelligence on the part of those in charge of Telefís Éireann to have ensured that two or three different points of view would be presented. I am told that this man is a professor of modern history and I am sure that he was introduced as Professor Desmond Williams, Professor of Modern History in TCD, or UCD, or wherever it is. I do not think it is good enough to have honest Irish people subjected to the harangue which I am told he delivered. I do not care what he said about me. I can take it from the Taoiseach, from the Minister, or even from the Tánaiste because I am here in the House and able to answer them and because the Press is good enough to give publicity to what I have to say in answer, but to present this man to give a certain view is plain stupid.

A director of Telefís Éireann who did that could only be described as failing in his duty on such an important occasion by having put forward such a person to present the point of view of Deputy Lemass and the Fianna Fáil Government. That would have been all right if the point of view of the Labour Party and the Fine Gael Party had been presented by somebody else. And then we have the reply of the Minister given to the members of this House last week when he reiterated the answer he had given when questioned about other broadcasts. This was too serious an occasion for that kind of thing.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has only two or three minutes left.

Mr. Corish

I want to reiterate my belief that there should be political discussions on Telefís Éireann but in accordance with Section 18 of the Act which says that controversial subjects should be presented in an objective and impartial way. Then there is the treatment of "An Fear agus a Scéal". The man who presents that programme is an acknowledged member of the Labour Party but he is also regarded as one of the best producers in Telefís Éireann. Compare the treatment of Professor Williams and the treatment of the interview by Proinsias MacAonghusa and Con Lehane. The director of Telefís Éireann said there was a lack of moderation in the MacAonghusa programme. Where do you apply that to the programme by Professor Desmond Williams?

We cannot but believe that there was interference by somebody to stop this particular programme. It was being advertised up to 6.30 p.m. as going on the air at 10.30 p.m. They were boasting about it; they were telling everybody to listen to "An Fear agus a Scéal", to hear Con Lehane. Then somebody interfered——

Mr. Hilliard

No: I am assured there was no outside interference.

Mr. Corish

I think it not unreasonable to assume somebody interfered and it was not for the first time.

Mr. McQuillan

"If Eddy says `no', it's curtains for the show."

Mr. Corish

I think we are entitled to assume that somebody interfered.

Mr. S. Dunne

Somebody did not like George Plant's name being there.

Mr. Corish

I could say much on this. The Minister like his colleague, the Minister for Transport and Power, tells us in respect of certain questions we ask: "You had better ask the Authority yourself". The Authority will not answer. They refuse to give the information. I have positive evidence of that, not in respect of the present Director whom I did not have occasion to question, but I raised certain questions with the Minister previously and he told me to ask the Authority. The Authority refused to give me information. That is another good reason why we put down this motion. If the Authority refuses the information and the Minister also refuses it, where are we?

Therefore, I ask the House to call upon the Minister to be more liberal in giving information to Dáil Éireann in regard to the activities of Telefís Éireann and Radio Éireann.

Mr. Tully

I formally second the motion, reserving my right to speak again.

Mr. Crotty

This motion serves a very good purpose. Anything that will bring out information in regard to these semi-State bodies is very welcome, whatever Party it comes from. I support the motion. This House provides the money to run these bodies and whoever pays the piper should have a say in the tune that is played. We have had cases concerning the Minister for Transport and Power and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs where it was practically a closed book when you sought information.

The main point in this motion is not to discuss the different types of programmes but the fact that information is being refused. It should have a good effect on the Director and Board of Radio Éireann if they knew they are subject to question in this House. I do not suggest that the day-to-day business of Radio Éireann should be questioned here. That would be bad, but matters of policy, matters of public discussion, should be brought up here. We should be allowed to discuss various questions and get reasonable replies from Ministers, as far as possible.Up to now, on minor details, the Minister will give replies, on matters having no bearing on policy, but on points of policy, there is no hope of getting any reply. The result is that we have cases such as we had recently in Béal na mBláth where cameras were used and films taken of commemoration proceedings for General Michael Collins and on the following Sunday night, or on other nights, when the people expected to see some of this on the programme, it was not given. There was no account of it at all. Other commemorations were held this year and reports and pictures were given. That is not a proper course to take.

Telefís Éireann was set up by the whole House, not by a particular Government.It will be there when the present Government and any other Government after it, have gone. Telefís Éireann is expected to present an impartial view of proceedings in the House and of political proceedings generally. Nobody will object to hard hitting as regards politics; that is the usual thing. Anybody who enters politics is prepared for that. If he wants a quiet time he will not enter them. People would like to have a fair show given to every Party in the House. Then nobody would object but it is when you allow only one side of the question to be debated that it is not fair.

The money for the television service is put up by the people of Ireland and people are very much influenced by television. If one Party is put up as the only Party in the country, as was the case recently, it has an affect. Governments will change and it would not be nice for the next Government to follow the lead given by the present Government. I ask the Minister to see that information will be given on political or on major topics, if it is required here. If that were the case, it would remedy much of the treatment of matters of public importance that has given rise to complaint in recent times on Telefís Éireann.

I trust the Minister will accept this motion as the Minister for Social Welfare accepted another motion last week and, not alone accept it as that Minister did, but do something about it and carry it into effect. All we want in Telefís Éireann and Radio Éireann is fair play for all sides of the House. If we get that, we will leave it to the people to decide when the time comes on any matters put before them.

Mr. S. Dunne

This motion serves to bring, for the first time, to my knowledge, in the past couple of years, forcibly into the open this infernal scandal that exists in this House as regards dodging of responsibility by Ministers. I have a file at home consisting entirely of refusals from the office of the Ceann Comhairle to accept questions relating to vital matters affecting the interests and lives of my constituents on the ground that the Minister had no official responsibility.

This matter has been mentioned by the mover of the motion and others, and I deem it my right to mention it also. This particular complaint, as it relates to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, is part of the pattern by which the Government have built a series of outworks consisting of State companies and organisations such as Telefís Éireann, An Bord Fáilte, CIE, Bord na Móna and a whole bundle of others that I cannot think of, but there are 50 or more of them. Behind these they can shelter and behind them many a thing is done that they would not like to trot out into broad daylight and discuss in the Dáil.

We have here a motion which affords an opportunity to talk about one aspect of this matter. There is nothing so frustrating, so infuriating, so enraging, to an ordinary Deputy who has gone to the trouble of having himself elected to this House—which is not a simple exercise—and who has at heart the interests of the people who send him here, than to put down a question and be told that it will not be allowed because the matter is outside the official responsibility of the Minister. The Minister cannot interfere in State companies. State companies are sacred: they are sacrosanct. They are staffed by saints—nearly all, of course, Fianna Fáil saints. There are very few Fine Gael saints in these companies. They are peopled by saints who, apparently, can do no wrong and who cannot be challenged by members of this House, by the people who vote the money to pay them their salaries. We cannot challenge them in any direction whatever if the particular Minister elects to hide behind the phrase: "The Minister has no official responsibility."

With regard to Telefís Éireann, Deputy Corish was in a somewhat difficult position in speaking about this incident which occurred almost a fortnight ago in relation to an interview by some person called "Williams", of whom I had never heard and of whom the people of Ireland had never heard before, whose name I saw mentioned only last night in a book dealing with spies in Ireland during the war. This person named "Williams" was brought along obviously to play the Government's game and was permitted to say over a nationwide network things of an insulting nature concerning a member of this House, the Leader of the Labour Party. I should be just as enraged if what he said about him were said about any member of the Fianna Fáil Party, or of any Party in this House, by such a person in such a manner. It was the grossest impertinence on the part of this so-called professor. The only thing he can have graduated in is ignorance. I do not think the Minister can dodge responsibility. It is merely one instance of much that happens.

"To-day in the Dáil"—I wonder how many members of this House have listened to that piece of so-called objective reportage without getting blood pressure because of the partisan display. I wonder how many have observed the very definite efforts which are made in the presentation of news to show the Government Party in a favourable light and discredit as far as possible the other Parties in this House. We are told that impartiality is of the essence so far as Telefís Éireann is concerned. It certainly does not display it. On many occasions, when I have talked to people in this city about Telefís Éireann, I have been met with the response: "Sure, doesn't everybody know there is a clique there. They are all one sack one sample. They are all brought in from the one source".

Now that is not true of all of them. There are obviously men of talent there, young men who have not yet become tainted by contact with the backroom politics that brand some of the members of the Television so-called Authority. There is quite obviously in Telefís Éireann an element which is striving to put over the propaganda of one single Party. That is stupid because we are the people who provide the money to make Telefís Éireann possible and we are entitled to expect Telefís Éireann to present news and programmes and to report in an impartial manner, in so far as it is possible to do so. But that is not being done. I accept what the Minister says, but that is not being done.

With regard to the programme "An Fear agus a Scéal", which related to a former Deputy, Con Lehane, I accept that the Minister did not interfere personally in that. I know the Minister to be an honourable man. We can accept his word in matters like this. Somebody out there, however, did not like the name of "George Plant" being mentioned. Somebody was trying to hide historical facts. Why should they, after a lapse of 20 years and in the case of a man long mouldering in his grave, a man who did his duty, whether or not we agree with it, and who gave his life in a fashion, whether or not we agree with it, for what he believed to be right? Simply because some hidden, anonymous clerk did not like the mention of this man's name——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister has been arraigned in this House and the Minister is responsible. No other person should be identified in any way. The Minister is responsible to the House. The Minister should be charged and nobody else. Nobody else has a possibility of answering except the Minister.

Mr. S. Dunne

I cannot identify anybody because I do not know who these gentlemen are.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy was identifying——

Mr. S. Dunne

I was identifying; I was identifying a man who is dead.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy said "some clerk".

Mr. S. Dunne

Yes, some clerk. It is obvious.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not any clerk. No clerk is responsible to this House. It is the Minister, and charges should be directed to him and to him only.

Mr. S. Dunne

Let nobody try to create the impression that I am attacking someone who is unable to reply. I am attacking the whole system which has produced this thing. There are hundreds of people out there and any one of them may have been responsible. I do not know who they are.

Let me tell a little story about Telefís Éireann and myself. Quite recently, there was a news report which, in my view, was incorrect. I rang the news room. I said in what I considered to be an eminently civil tongue to the person in charge that I believed this report to be incorrect and, because I was concerned in it, I wanted to have it corrected. The reply made was that the listener was not used to being spoken to in such a rough tone of voice. "Well," I said, "it is not my purpose at all to speak to you in any rough tone. I simply want to have mistakes corrected." In the course of some further conversation, I happened to use a colloquialism, to drop into the common idiom. I said: "What the hell," and I was told by the listener that I was not to curse at him.

Mr. Corish

They are nice boys.

Mr. S. Dunne

At that stage, I said: "Look, you know my name." In case he did not, I repeated it. I said: "What is yours?""Oh," he said, "we are not permitted to give our names over the phone." So much for the anonymous people out there. That is an example of wished-for anonymity. I am not making anything out of it except to show the stupidity of the carry-on. Just imagine a person of that mentality presenting news, a person who feels himself bearing the brunt of foul language when he is asked "What the hell." It shows the level of intelligence.

I support this motion. If I had any fault to find with it it is that it does not express itself with sufficient pungency.It does, however, give us an opportunity of raising here publicly this whole question of the rights of members, a matter I have tried to raise on many occasions, to obtain information.

I recall that two or three weeks ago the Leader of the main Opposition Party, Deputy Dillon, in a very eloquent manner, addressed some club in Dublin — I think it was the Publicity Club — and spoke of the great shield we have for the protection of the public, of the great weapon there is in the hands of Dáil Éireann, the simple Parliamentary question. He must have forgotten that these Parliamentary questions are frustrated, not in a single file but in battalions. Every member of the House has files from the Ceann Comhairle's Office, or at least any member of the House who has tried to make use of this theoretical right which we have but which does not exist must have files of documents as I have. Deputies McQuillan and Browne probably lead the field in that — their file must run into three figures — but we all have our share of them over the years.

This debate has helped to expose that situation. I am grateful to the Labour Party members who have put down this motion to enable the situation to be exposed, not that it will bring any results, but, through the medium of the Press — is it too much to hope through the medium of Telefís Éireann — that it will be shown to the people of the country that all is not as it seems to be and that when somebody is elected to Dáil Éireann, theoretically he may have the right to ask questions but that there is a restriction of at least 50 per cent on that right. It is in the hope that by public exposure of this flagrant violation of this democratic principle that I support the motion — in the hope that some remedy will eventually be found.

Political differences are in the nature of progress; they are essential to progress. If we did not have political differences, discussions and debates, our whole existence would be inanimate—there would be no life, no progress. It is from conflict of ideas that man progresses. Telefís Éireann does not appear to believe in that. Its idea is to put across one line only, the Government Party line. No other line is permitted to exist, as far as I can see, and I most vehemently protest against that policy. I think it is scandalous, an insult to the Irish nation, more than half of whom are not in favour of the Government. It is an insult and an imposition on them to ask them to pay licence fees to subsidise and patronise a system to put over a political Party line in matters of reports and otherwise. Members of this House have had to stand before the people, which is far more difficult than attending a few lectures in University College, Dublin, or in Trinity College. It is a better test of a man. With those few, I hope, civil words, I congratulate the movers of the motion.

Mr. T. Lynch

I came in here to support the motion mainly because I have always argued here on the rights of Deputies to ask Parliamentary questions. I was glad to see the Leader of my Party making a magnificent address to the Publicity Club recently on that. I have been continually asking another Minister questions and he has continually fobbed me off, even though he had admitted he is responsible. The Minister now in the House has countered my questions with the statement that he is not responsible, notwithstanding the fact that during the debate on the television Bill he assured us he would be responsible to the House.

It is very important that we stress here tonight that when Deputies ask Parliamentary questions, they should be answered properly. It is the Minister's business to answer questions. Section 18 of the Bill lays down that controversial subjects must be handled with impartiality. We know what has been happening. A man with no political background has been pushed before the camera to pontificate for the Irish nation and to give the Fianna Fáil Party line. If the Minister says there is not Party line, I shall reply by drawing attention to what happened in this House the day President Kennedy addressed us when the television cameras covered no side of the House but the Fianna Fáil side.

Mr. McQuillan

With their mouths open.

Mr. T. Lynch

With their mouths open. That is a matter of record. Since I came to the House, there has been a vendetta, organised by the former leader of the Fianna Fáil Party, against General Michael Collins. The Army were not allowed to go to Béal na Bláth. Telefís Éireann sent their cameras to all these ceremonies. They took their pictures on a fine day but none was shown on the programme because this vendetta must be carried on. Is it not obvious therefore that there is a line?

The Dublin by-election was passed over by Telefís Éireann as if it were something that was happening thousands of miles away, but we could hear all about elections in Liberia. Then, the other day, we had a topical talk on the Luton by-election and on the British Prime Minister winning in his constituency. If the Minister and his friends think we do not read the newspapers and pay attention to those things, they are making a mistake. We do.

I am always complaining about the treatment my constituency gets. I want to give another instance of it now. We ran the best musical festival in this country, one that pays for itself and that brings in the most tourists. I am putting it against every other festival in the country; yet we got no coverage from Telefís Éireann. In fact, there was a complaint to this effect in the columns of the Evening Herald recently. At the same time, they sent their cameras 156 miles from Dublin to televise two or three little girls tripping around because they were friends of somebody in Radio Éireann who wants to have a few days down there. These are functions that have no news value, no promotional value to the country.

I saw the streets of Waterford filled every day for its festival with people with accents from England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. They came there day after day and a most magnificent musical festival was put on, but there was not a single picture on Telefís Éireann. The people of this country are getting tried of just listening to the news and looking at the newscaster. There are not enough pictures of what happens. There was a sporting event recently and there was good notice that an Irish-bred dog trained by Mr. Dick Ryan had won his fourth round in the Waterloo Cup. If we had good news organisers, we would have had a cameraman on the plane that night to take the final, whether this dog won or lost. It won, and it was a miracle that it was even announced that the dog had won. Again there is never any rowing shown. Rowing seems to be a sport that is gone. Nobody bothers about it in Radio Éireann and naturally if they have no interest in it, nobody else will know anything about it.

The news is read out night after night and you see only the newscasters, nice, competent fellows, and maybe an occasional picture. There would have to be a fire in Dublin within half a mile of the studio and that would have to occur fairly early in the morning in order to give them time to film it.

Deputy Dillon had a Parliamentary question down to the Minister regarding the famous Williams broadcast. He asked would the film be made available. The Minister shook his head and did not say the film would be made available. If Deputies such as the Leaders of the two Opposition Parties here asked to see a film such as that, especially a telecast that was both insulting and unimpartial, they should be given the opportunity of seeing it as a matter of courtesy.

Mr. Corish

It would not be very courteous to have him talking for a second time.

Mr. T. Lynch

It is always good to see.

Mr. Tully

Maybe Professor Williams was not photogenic.

Mr. T. Lynch

From what I was told about him, he was not photogenic but we shall leave that. He was told to toe the Party line. We must judge by results and the results are that as far as Telefís Éireann is concerned, there is a strong Party line from the Government benches and from Fianna Fáil right into Telefís Éireann, influencing the policy of Telefís Éireann, influencing the pictures and the news. There is no question of Telefís Éireann giving the Leaders of the Opposition Parties an opportunity of having their say, of even reporting them or being present at any of their functions. The whole idea is, as they say in modern times, to create an image: the image must be created that Fianna Fáil know all, dominant, that Fianna Fáil know all, that they see all and that they are everywhere and "Be careful of what you are saying or you might lose your job."

Another matter I want to mention to the Minister is censorship, which was mentioned here by Deputy Corish. There should be some standard of quality. The type of canned programme which is dished up sometimes is dreadful. I do not say the programmes I am talking about are immoral; they could not be condemned on any immoral grounds but they are an insult to the intelligence. The people who bought them must never have seen them. They must have bought them by the hundredweight, by the ton, by the gross or by the thousand, and they keep showing them.

Recently I saw two plays on Telefís Éireann, "The Workhouse Ward" and "In the Train" with Cyril Cusack and Anna Managhan. We have great actors and actresses but we do not make enough use of them. They are not able to penetrate into Telefís Éireann. Many of the best of our young television people are going to England because they get more opportunities. May be they get better pay but I will not go into that. The Minister should take cognisance of this motion. He should see to it that Fianna Fáil do not establish a cumann in Telefís Éireann and, if they have established one, he should insist that it be taken out of it. Telefís Éireann belongs to the Irish people and whatever telecasts come from it should be impartial and national, and the Irish news should reflect Ireland and not just one or two places in Ireland.

Mr. P.J. Burke

It was not my intention to say anything at all here tonight but as I listened to Deputy Lynch——

Mr. T. Lynch

I am always able to get him.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I remained very peaceful while he was speaking because I saw he had a lot of notes in front of him. I do not know what the other speakers have said but according to Deputy Lynch, Telefís Éireann is no use. I think we nationally-minded people should be very proud of Telefís Éireann who have done a jolly good job. If people go on Telefís Éireann and if they do not please everybody and if they do not clap some of the Opposition Parties on the back every time they appear, they are wrong. This is a free country and if we cannot take a bit of criticism——

Mr. Tully

Even the Deputy would not have the hard neck to say what Williams said.

Mr. P.J. Burke

The Deputy and I had a few clashes before and he should keep quiet — he should be seen and not heard.

Mr. Tully

It would be very hard not to see Deputy Burke, even on Telefís Éireann.

Mr. P.J. Burke

It is very easy to come into the House and criticise John Jones, Deputy Burke or somebody else who was seen on Telefís Éireann.

Mr. McQuillan

It is the people who are not seen we are talking about.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I hold that Telefís Éireann is doing a very good job. The Minister set up an impartial committee to administer the affairs of Telefís Éireann. The Director-General of Telefís Éireann is an impartial man and if periodically something is said on Telefís Éireann that is contrary to the political beliefs of a particular Party, it must be remembered there are many things said about our Party, both in the Press and on the radio——

Mr. T. Lynch

But not on television.

Mr. P.J. Burke

——and even on the platforms, that are completely untrue.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

May I point out to the Deputy and others that this motion does not relate to the quality of programmes on Telefís Éireann? It relates simply to the attitude of the Minister in declining to supply important information. There is nothing else in the motion.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Thank you for bringing me back but I was following my honourable friend, Deputy Lynch.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I was about to point that out to Deputy Lynch when he resumed his seat.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Deputy Lynch apparently took cover.

Mr. T. Lynch

Deputy Lynch never takes cover. He will stand out here and let you have blow for blow any time you like.

Mr. O'Sullivan

Deputy Burke would require more cover.

Mr. P.J. Burke

In regard to this motion, I do not think we could have a more impartial Minister. He will not interfere with Telefís Éireann. I am not going to embarrass you, Sir, by straying from the motion but being a charitable man, you will be silent for a few seconds until I deal with this matter about the Minister. The Minister is blamed for everything. Surely the Minister cannot supply all the information?He has set up a Committee and there is a Director General and there are directors of the various branches in Telefís Éireann. It is their job to carry on and if they were to be subject to a Minister in regard to everything they did, it would be impossible for the Minister to carry on and I would say to my colleague if he found himself in that position that he should resign. He has not placed himself in that position.

If somebody speaks on Telefís Éireann and the Minister is not there to censor what he says, we have a hullabaloo in the House and a lot of questions put down. That is not democracy, to put it around that it is political and that it is staged by the Minister, or to say that the Minister is withholding information. This is complete eyewash and the people who put down the motion know it. Some day they may find themselves in the position in which the Minister is at present and will find themselves answering questions tabled by Deputies. The Deputies who have been tabling these questions have been trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. The Opposition do not care whom they hurt. The Minister will go down in history as one of the men who instituted Telefís Éireann. He is an old soldier of Ireland who puts the interests of Ireland first.

Mr. T. Lynch

Deputy Burke must be going down to the Minister in the morning to look for something.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Burke is entitled to make his speech without interruption.

Mr. P.J. Burke

We are very proud of our national heritage and we are very proud that television was set up by our Party. We are very proud of everything that Telefís Éireann has done and very proud of the people who are administering it.

Mr. Corish

The Deputy is a very proud man.

Mr. P.J. Burke

If anybody said boo to me on a platform. I would not say to somebody else: "Will you try to hit that fellow because he mentioned my name." That is the attitude adopted by the Opposition, complaining to the Minister because he does not ask if so-an-so can go on the air to-night. That is the kind of childish attitude we have, taking up the time of this assembly when we should be doing something constructive and worthwhile for the people.

They seek to put it over that they are perfect and that we are trying to screen something. We were never anxious to hide anything. We have always put the interests of this country before our own interests as a national Party. The Minister has nothing to hide either and I do not see why he should be called on to deal with motions of this kind because this is not democracy. They put down all the questions they could to embarrass the Minister. We should give all the encouragement we can to Telefís Éireann. We should encourage them to be impartial and even if a man went on the air and said all he could say about Paddy Burke, I would say "More power to him" and thanks be to God that he can because this is a democracy and a man is free to criticise in a democracy, provided he does not take a man's character away. I always say thanks be to God that we are living in a democracy and that a man can say anything he likes about another man's views, provided it is within the rules of decency.

Mr. T. Lynch

It is only lately that it happened to you.

Mr. P.J. Burke

A certain professor was criticised by a member on the other side of the House. That professor had every right to say what he believed. I am glad he can say it and that he will not be arrested for doing so.

Mr. Corish

He was paid for saying it.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Judging by the attitude of the Opposition, if they were in power and somebody said something which was contrary to their views, the man would run the risk of being arrested. That is not democracy.

Mr. Corish

It is not, of course.

Mr. P.J. Burke

People, particularly the leaders of Parties, should be big enough to take criticism. I conclude by saying that I am very proud of Telefís Éireann and of the Minister.

Mr. Corish

Congratulate the Minister.

Mr. P.J. Burke

The Minister is doing a very good job and I would advise him not to mind these motions. I advise him to do his job impartially, to do it for the nation and not for anybody else.

Mr. T. Lynch

And do the job he will ask you about in the morning.

Mr. McQuillan

One of the most frequently heard statements in this House from Ministerial benches is: "The Minister has no function in the matter". I do not know how often I have heard that phrase, and also the phrase "The Ceann Comhairle regrets". In my opinion, 50 per cent of the questions which should be put to a Minister do not get further than the Ceann Comhairle and to those which do get past him, the reply from the Minister is "I have no function in the matter".

I propose to comment, not in a personal way, on the Minister's part in that and in so far as that attitude on the part of Ministers has given the public the idea that a Minister is trying to utilise State companies as a screen and if things go wrong in State companies, pretend he has no responsibility The result is that very often State or semi-State companies are blamed in the wrong. The proper attitude on the Minister's part, as far as this motion is concerned, would be to set up a special Committee of the House which would act as a liaison between the House and the Television Authority.

Debate adjourned.