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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Dec 1963

Vol. 206 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Pigs and Bacon Act, 1935 (Part II) (No. 3) Regulations, 1963, and Agricultural Produce (Fresh Meat) Act, 1930 (Exporter's Licences) Fees Regulations, 1963: Motion of Approval.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the following Regulations in draft:

Pigs and Bacon Act, 1935 (Part II) (No. 3), Regulations, 1963, and

Agricultural Produce (Fresh Meat) Act, 1930 (Exporter's Licences) Fees Regulations, 1963,

copies of which were laid in draft before the Dáil on the 4th day of December, 1963.

In requesting the approval of the House for these Regulations, copies of which, in draft, have been laid before the House, I wish to make it clear that the object of the regulations is to give effect to a request made to my Department by the trade organisations representing the meat-export industry, namely, the Irish Fresh Meat Exporters Society, the Irish Bacon Curers Society and the Beef Canners Advisory Association. No revenue will accrue to the State by reason of the increased fees proposed, and my Department will pay over to the trade's own meat Research Institute an amount equivalent to the proceeds of the increases in the fees, plus the additional contribution being made by the State.

The meat trade is setting up a research unit, whose function will be to carry out applied research into technical requirements of the meat industry here—for example, methods of processing, canning and packaging meat for export. The arrangements are the outcome of discussions between the trade organisations, my Department and An Foras Talúntais. Operation of the meat research unit will be under the control of an institute which the trade is establishing for that purpose, namely the Irish Meat Research Institute Limited. Advice in regard to the research programme will be provided by a consultative council comprising six representatives of the meat trade—two each from the carcase meat, canned meat and bacon trades—together with two technical officers of my Department and two officers of An Foras Talúntais. State grants will be provided towards meeting part of the costs of setting up and operating the unit.

The balance of the costs will be met by the trade and the trade organisations have stated that they would experience difficulty in making a satisfactory arrangement, on a voluntary basis, for collection of the funds needed from their members to meet the costs of the unit. They, therefore, asked that the trade contributions should be collected by means of a special additional levy on animals slaughtered at all registered meat-export premises and bacon factories— at the rates of fourpence per head of cattle, a penny per pig and a halfpenny per sheep.

The only way at present open to me to meet that request is to amend the regulations governing the payment of statutory slaughtering fees to my Department so as to increase, by the amounts proposed by the trade, the prescribed rates of the existing statutory slaughtering fees and to pay over in due course to the Irish Meat Research Institute Limited, an amount equivalent to the receipts derived from the increase in the rates of fee. My powers of amendment of the regulations are, however, qualified by the relevant statutes, which provide that a draft of any regulations altering the rates of fee shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and the regulations shall not be made until a resolution approving the draft has been passed by each such House. In the circumstances, a resolution approving the draft regulations now before the House is required to enable me to collect, on behalf of the meat industry, the moneys they have agreed to provide as the industry's contribution to the costs of setting up and operating the meat research unit.

Considering the importance of our meat trade in the national economy— our exports of meat and meat products in 1962 were valued at more than £31 million and accounted for 30 per cent of our total agricultural exports—I need not dwell upon the desirability of our having an organised service in operation here for the carrying out of research at trade level directed towards technical progress in the processing and treatment of meat and meat products. In the First Programme for Economic Expansion in 1958, reference was made to the benefit which the meat industry would undoubtedly derive from research into technical problems, and it was indicated that State aid would be made available to help finance such research.

Thereafter, my Department conducted a lengthy series of discussions with the trade interests with a view to arriving at a suitable arrangement for the setting up and financing of a meat research unit. An Foras Talúntais participated in these discussions and there will be appropriate co-ordination of activities between An Foras and the meat trade's research unit. Now that agreement has been reached in the matter, I propose to facilitate the trade organisations by amending the regulations regarding fees, in order to give effect to their request. By arrangement with the trade, the increased rates of fee will be applicable as from 1st July, 1963.

The trade research unit is being started on a modest scale. The extra levies now proposed are estimated to yield about £12,000 per annum and the further contribution by the State will be about £6,500 per annum towards operating expenses and about £5,000 in each of the first two years towards initial capital expenses.

We on this side of the House have no objection to this motion since it does not seek to implement the recent suggestion that there should be a levy on pigs from which redundant bacon factory owners should be compensated for the closing down of their factories. We feel the step the Minister is now taking is a good one, since it is to be organised jointly by the trade, Foras Talúntais and the Department. It will definitely bring about the type of review so absolutely necessary to the extension and expansion of our exports of meat products.

It is pleasing to note that the Minister and his Party are now aware of the fact that this is our most important export and it is noteworthy that the levy proposed is small by comparison with the advantage it will bring to all farmers, big and small. It could mean increased exports and therefore we have no objection to it.

There are some details on which I should like further illumination. The Pigs and Bacon Regulations, in paragraph 3, state that for the purpose of subsection (1) of Section 28, the prescribed sum shall be sixpence. Do I understand there is an existing levy of fivepence?

I thought it was fourpence.

That is what I do not understand. The Minister said the new levy was one penny.

There is a levy in existence.

I understood the Minister to tell us this operated to provide an additional penny.

A penny or a penny-halfpenny—I am not sure which. The existing levy is fivepence.

That is it. When we speak of sixpence, it represents an additional penny. In so far as we have a proposal before us to provide a penny from pigs, a halfpenny from sheep and fourpence from cattle, for research, I think that proposal can be justified, but we ought to bear in mind that these levies accumulate. There is a levy already of something like 15s. per pig, to help exports. There is a levy of 1/4 per pig to meet the administrative expenses of the Pigs and Bacon Commission, and now there is sixpence, a penny of which is going to the purposes of this motion and fivepence to other purposes about which I am not clear. Can the Minister recall what the fivepence is going to?

For veterinary inspections entirely, I think.

When you add them all up, there is now a levy of, I think, 16/10 per pig to meet part of the cost of subsidising exports, the administrative expenses of the Pigs and Bacon Commission and veterinary expenses in bacon factories. We want to watch these several charges even when the new one is very small. A total of 16/10 per pig must amount to substantially more than £1 million a year on the pig producers, and that is no small total charge.

However, we are now dealing with the penny a pig for research purposes, and the broader question of a levy on pigs for the purpose of financing the rationalisation of the bacon curing industry and the invitation to certain smaller factories to drop out of the trade does not arise on this motion, in view of what the Minister has said. Therefore, we do not propose to drag it into the discussion because if that issue did arise on this motion, we would be bound to resist this motion with all the resources at our disposal.

Dealing with this purely from the research point of view, the Minister has told us very little of what he contemplates will be set up as a result of this motion. There is to be a controlling body, representative of the trade— two from the freshmeat and two from the canned meat trade, and two from the bacon factories, with two officials of the Minister's Department and two representatives of An Foras Talúntais, all of whom will constitute a governing body of this new institute. Is this institute to have premises and laboratories of its own?

I wonder is this multiplication of institutions wise? Could it have been satisfactorily done by the Agricultural Institute? I know that when I first envisaged the Agricultural Institute, I had hoped to gather into it all research, and indeed all higher education in agriculture. The higher education in agriculture had to be dropped as a result of an ignorant hullabaloo by the vested interests, but there remained the hope that we would gather in under one representative body all research activities.

Does the Minister not apprehend the development of duplication if we have a separate controlling body built up to do all research for meat processing? I think we have to keep in mind the danger of Parkinson's Law developing here where you might get a kind of rivalry between two research bodies of this kind, one wanting to indicate it is more significant than the other. I should have thought it would have been possible under An Foras Talúntais to set up a governing body of that organisation, specially charged with that work and that they would co-opt to their numbers representatives of the various trades the Minister has mentioned.

Does the Minister not apprehend that if there is to be an entirely separate institute, it may start growing just for the sake of growing? It will have its own laboratories, I presume; it will have its own experimental stations for trying out a variety of meat-packing procedures and seeking to detect defects in existing procedures. It could grow into a considerable institution, with consequent demands for more and more money which would ultimately fall on the pigs. For that reason, I am a little uneasy about the proposal to set up an entirely new and separate organisation and I should be glad to hear the Minister's view of that aspect of the proposal. I should prefer this research work to be done either under the general supervision of An Foras Talúntais or the Department itself. We already have the Veterinary Research Institute which is still under the Department of Agriculture—am I right in that?

On balance, I think I should favour putting this under An Foras Talúntais, on the ground that we generally determine to delegate all research functions to An Foras Talúntais and not to add extra research functions to the Department itself. I should like to hear the Minister's view on the danger of creating an entirely new and separate body with the risk of development of overlapping between An Foras Talúntais and the new body, and the additional expense.

I agree with the Deputy when he says that however small these levies may appear, they all tend to add up and I think he will concede that, in the full knowledge of the effect of these levies, no Minister is likely to come very heartily into the House to propose an increase for that very reason and will only do so when the case for taking that step is a strong one.

Deputy Dillon referred to the extent of the levies for all the different purposes but it is not as bad in regard to pigs as he says because in the case of pigs the producer is guaranteed a minimum price and has to get it. I suppose that the levy has to come; it is the trade that will provide it, but the one thing which the pig producer can be sure of is that he gets the minimum price——

How often he must bless them.

There are few of us who are not entitled at one time or other in our lives to receive a blessing but it does not happen too often in some men's lives.

That is very true.

Coming to this institution, I am certainly not in this case thirsting to create an opportunity to increase and multiply. As might be gathered from the speech I made, the discussions that have taken place in regard to the proposals now before us go back for years. It was a most complicated matter. There was a great deal of discussion. I felt, and I think my officials felt, that the trade should be brought into this as actively as possible by giving them the fullest share of responsibility for directing the activities of this unit.

It is all very well to cite the veterinary laboratory as being under our Department but it is an entirely different thing, according to my reasoning. From the beginning, I felt the trade should have intimate contact. The intention is that the premises will be provided by An Foras Talúntais on a rental basis and the fact that they, with ourselves and the technical people of our Department, will be on this council will constitute—the decision has not yet been reached—the best arrangement. Men who are in the business are keen; they know what is required. They see things happen about them and I think they are quicker to get technical and trained personnel off the mark to see what can be done to cope with the competition which they meet.

I can say that since we have had these discussions over such a long period there is no aspect that has not been debated and we arrived at the stage when, it is true to say, there was agreement on what is proposed here on the part of all interested parties, that is, An Foras Talúntais and the three trades or businesses I have mentioned and ourselves. Perhaps I have not given all the reasons that could be given to support my line of thought but I had the belief from the beginning that the trade should have the most intimate contact possible with the actual work to be done.

Could the Minister say has agreement been reached as to what premises will be rented or where will the institute be situated?

That is not decided yet. I have not thought of that yet but the Institute have arranged to provide suitable premises and receive an annual rent for them.

Question put and agreed to.
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