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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 11 Dec 1963

Vol. 206 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 19—Miscellaneous Expenses.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £1,757 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1964, for certain Miscellaneous Expenses, including certain Grants-in-Aid.

As this is the first occasion on which a Supplementary Estimate for this purpose is being introduced, I feel I should give some details of what I consider to be the necessity for this Estimate. It is required to enable a grant-in-aid of £1,757 to be paid to the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. It is the first time that State aid is being given directly to the society.

The society has, since its inception, been doing social work of considerable value to the community. Its inspectors —18 in number—secure in appropriate circumstances the committal to suitable institutions of children who have been ill-treated, deserted or abandoned and of the children of unmarried mothers. Not only does the society seek to prevent cruelty and neglect and to afford relief when they occur, it also—and it is on this that the society itself lays greatest weight—tries to achieve greater harmony and stability in families threatened with a break-up. Its work involves helping the whole family, not only the children, and through well-timed and tactful intervention its inspectors are often able to help in effecting reconciliation even in cases where all hope would seem lost. Material assistance is also provided on occasion to families in need. Much of the society's work is of a type which could not be carried out by the Gardaí without court proceedings and the consequent undesirable publicity which would have the effect of prejudicing the re-establishment of harmonious relations within the home.

The society is a voluntary organisation dependent to a large degree on the unpaid efforts of its members and relying for its funds on the charity of the public. In the last two years, its financial position has deteriorated to the point where the society may be forced to curtail its activities. This would be a regrettable matter for the community, especially as the society itself is anxious to extend its beneficial work, not hitherto served by its inspectors.

It can be reasonably urged, therefore, that the State should make a direct contribution to the society's work. Hitherto the health authorities have made small contributions— amounting in all to about £700 to £800 —one-half of which is recouped by the Exchequer. As the health element of the society's work is considerably less than the general social content, it would not be appropriate to increase these grants.

It has been decided, therefore, to make an annual State grant on the basis of £1 for every £1 of current yearly income, net, received by the society, subject to a maximum of £5,000. From discussions with the society, I understand that gives them the amount they require at the moment. In reckoning net current income, donations, legacies and the State grant itself would not be taken into account. As well as having an incentive to develop its activities and add to its subscribers, the society will, with the help of the State grant, be enabled to put its finances on a better foundation and to expand its activities to the advantage of the community, especially those weakest members— the neglected or abandoned children.

Everybody in the House—and certainly we in this Party —will accept and endorse wholeheartedly any tribute that can be paid anywhere to the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. The work they have done has been quite invaluable and has meant that many children have been enabled to grow to maturity in circumstances and in an atmosphere which otherwise would have been quite impossible. Anything that can possibly be done to assist them is well worth while. The method of providing means by which societies of this sort, which it is desirable to support, are encouraged to help themselves by a system of giving grants commensurate with what they collect themselves is a good one—the £1 for £1 approach, as it is commonly known. Certainly, no taxpayer or no one in this House would begrudge anything given to this Society to enable them to carry on and even to extend the quite invaluable work they have done for many of our young people.

I endorse entirely what Deputy Sweetman has said. I am happy to think that the precedent which has made this procedure possible was established by us in the first instance when we persuaded the Department of Finance, over which Deputy Sweetman was then Minister—not without a fight, I admit—to permit the Department of Agriculture to give the Irish Countrywomen's Association a grant from State funds for their admirable work.

I want to say a word about this whole problem. I know a great many people who are engaged in the voluntary service of the Irish Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, as I have no doubt the Minister does also, and I am often awe-struck by the amount of voluntary work and anxiety they undertake in the maintenance and administration of a very valuable social service of this kind. It is peculiarly true that the State, with the best will in the world, cannot provide the same kind of service as a voluntary organisation of this kind does in fact provide. Difficulty always arises in collecting sufficient funds to enable them to carry out their work but with the steadily rising costs of everything at the present time it becomes frightfully difficult for a voluntary body to collect enough to keep their operations going because, as we all know, if we get into the habit of subscribing a certain annual sum to a society like this or to any other beneficial organisation, the reluctance to change all your subscriptions every year is pretty strong. Therefore, societies find it very difficult to expand their income. On the other hand, it is unfortunately true that if they become wholly dependent on State grants, something seems to be lost in the character and quality of their work.

I do not quite understand the provision that the society must first raise £18,000 and that then we will make this grant at the rate of £ for each £ collected up to a limit of £5,000 over and above £18,000. I suppose that is the result of discussions between the Minister and the society?

It is a pretty formidable sum to collect before they can hope to get anything out of this grant at all. I think the procedure I adopted with the Irish Countrywomen's Association was that we segregated one branch of their activity, namely, organisation. They had a number of ladies who went around and explained the aims and objects of the Irish Countrywomen's Association to groups who sought the advice. Their difficulty was that they had only two or three organisers because they could not afford to pay any more. They felt, and rightly felt, that if they could explain the character of their activities more generally, the society would spread and generate its own income. So I suggested to them that we would segregate that part of their expenses, the organisational expenses, and that the Government would give them a grant which would be sufficient to increase the number of their organisers from three to five, or some basis of that kind. I think that worked very well and the additional publicity they were able to engage in and the dissemination of information begot a great number of new branches from which revenue flowed into headquarters which enabled them to carry on their general activities.

I do not quarrel with this arrangement the Minister has entered into but I think he could assume that if this arrangement operated to deprive the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children of as much as he would wish to see them get, if he comes back to the House, or if his successor comes back to the House, and says: "We wish to supplement the funds of this society and are prepared to adopt a different basis", if the basis now proposed does not operate to supplement the funds of the Society sufficiently, such approach will be very sympathetically received. I trust the Minister will feel himself free to say that, whatever side of the House he is sitting on, he will sympathise with that approach if others submit it to the House in regard to an Estimate of this character in any future year.

As I said, the basic line was fixed at a level which at the time I was discussing the matter with them would give them as much as they required at that time. I do not remember the figures exactly. Supposing they were taking in £20,000 at that time and wanted £22,000. I said that for every £ they received in excess of £18,000, we would give £1 and that that would give them more, if they could get more. They were very pleased with that type of arrangement because they felt they could try to induce their subscribers to give a little more and that every £ they would give would mean £2, which is an encouragement to subscribers also. I quite agree with the Deputy that if this system does not work as we thought it would, we would have to revise it, of course. That would be always possible.

Vote put and agreed to.
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