Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 14 May 1964

Vol. 209 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 43—Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.—(Deputy Crotty.)

Mr. Jones

In order to secure a reduction in the time-lag in the provision of telephone facilities, I should like to ask the Minister if he has considered whether or not it would be of assistance if the regulation requiring application to be made for permission to erect lines along public roads, which involves delay in respect of the publication of statutory notices amounting to six weeks to two months, were eliminated.

The present position is that the Minister must make application for permission for the erection of lines along public roadways and then has to wait a certain period after the publication of these notices. Such regulations do not apply in regard to the provision of other services of a type in which the public interest is involved. The Electricity Supply Board may erect lines over property after serving notice in the ordinary way. On the other hand, if such procedure is desirable in the case of public roads, it should be retained.

A second suggestion I would make is whether the microwave might not be used more extensively with a view to improving the telephone service. In some instances it might have the effect of reducing the load on the ordinary carrier lines and provide a faster service, thus reducing the time-lag in some cases.

I should also like to draw the Minister's attention to a problem in connection with radio and television reception. It is still true that in certain parts of the country interference is experienced with radio reception which some people attribute to the television service. I do not know whether that is the case or not. The technical advisers to the Minister would be in a position to advise him as to that. People who pay for wireless licences are annoyed by interference of any kind. If the television service does interfere with radio reception, perhaps a way might be found of eliminating such interference.

In regard to the television service itself, we have certainly made a very good start. A creditable amount of native talent is being used. The interest in programmes is all the greater because of this, since the type of entertainment with which the people are familiar is being provided. Plays and features such as "Question Time", along with the programmes which give an opportunity to native talent, are very creditable.

The Minister for Education is now making available school libraries in certain selected areas, and I understand it is the intention to expand that service throughout the State. I would appeal to the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs that there should be consultation in regard to the type of material used for children's programmes. A series of great interest to children was that in which the Outside Unit of Telefís Éireann visited such places as the Zoo. This induced in children a lively interest in these places. I wonder if such visits could be expanded and if he could correlate the children's programmes with the school library service? In this way an interest in books on nature and travel might be supplemented by films which would give children a healthy interest in the outside world. The best type of approach for children is the living picture, which can convey to them a greater knowledge of the world in which they live. I believe such films are available and could be used by Telefís Éireann. They would be both instructive and entertaining for the children.

It should be possible to find a place for more of our native music, particularly band music, in the television service. A great tradition has been built up around the Army No. 1 Band, and the appearance of this Band on any occasion excited admiration and interest. Our great heritage of Irish music was popularised by the Army Band, but I am afraid it has been too readily forgotten in the maelstrom of modern music. It would not be of any harm to the culture of the country if from time to time the television and broadcasting services were used to enable our people to hear our Irish music played by the Army No. 1 Band and the other Army bands.

It is also a pity that some of the treasures in the National Gallery and the Museum cannot be seen by more of our people. The interest children show in these when they come to Dublin on trips is very marked, but a large number of people will never have an opportunity of seeing them. I ask the Minister if it would be possible for Telefís Éireann to use the modern media available to them to bring to the people some of the treasures we have in Dublin.

Mr. McQuillan

Most of the matters with which I should like to have dealt have been commented on at length by other Deputies and I shall not delay the House. Speaking generally on the new charges which have been imposed on the public as a result of the second Budget. I believe that a Department which has to increase its charges, by as much as 66 per cent in some cases, for its services is either being very badly run or not under control at all. It is a bad example to set private enterprise, to set those people outside who have no compunction whatever about increasing their charges to the public. I refer to the various manufacturers and industrialists who, at the slightest excuse, seize upon the opportunity to increase their charges and increase their profits.

I cannot understand how the Minister can justify an increase of up to 66 per cent. Such an increase coming so suddenly requires a very clear explanation from the so-called planners in this Department. We heard a lot from the Government recently about planning. I have always maintained they are not serious about planning. It is only a cant as far as Fianna Fáil are concerned. It is proof of how incompetent they are to plan, if as a result of their planning the public are to be mulcted to the extent this Estimate envisages.

I remember over the years being told in this House by former Ministers that the more people avail themselves of a service such as the telephone service, the lighter the charge would be. In fact, we have the very opposite happening. The greater the demand for such an essential service, the greater the imposition on those who seek that service. There is something topsy turvy about that. Other Deputies suggested that the capital cost of the equipment should be repayable over a very long period. Nobody owns a telephone except the Department or the company. The householder or business man simply rents this facility. He is paying a rent for life for the equipment. I cannot understand why charges should be so high in this field.

The worst feature of the Government's mentality in this regard is, I think, the suggestion that these increase, upon which I have just commented, increases up to 66 per cent, are necessary to pay the increase in salary and wages of the personnel in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and that, if this House does not vote the money, we are thereby objecting or refusing to agree to the increase being paid. Other Deputies have referred to this matter. A Government who adopt that attitude have nothing but contempt for the intelligence of the public.

I should like now to comment upon our television service. I shall not deal with the programmes because, if I did, I should say too much. I look upon myself as a television fan, but I would not pay the licence fee for a television set if I were confined to Telefís Éireann as my sole source of viewing. It is most aggravating to find, when I try to get reception from UTV or the BBC, that there is deliberate jamming of these stations by the powers who control Telefís Éireann. There is no end to censorship in this country and here we have an attempt made to prevent the viewing public from seeing and listening to some of the very wonderful programmes available on both the BBC and UTV.

I know that the Minister has put himself on record as saying there is no jamming and no deliberate interference. I would point out to him that Eamonn Andrews, the Chairman of the Board, is on record as saying that there would be interference with the BBC and UTV when Telefís Éireann came into operation. The Minister's reply, when challenged, was to the effect that, when Mr. Andwers made that statement, the Minister himself sent out for the script and the statement did not appear in the script; therefore, it must have been an off-the-cuff statement. But, whether or not it was in the script, the statement was made and we know today that there is deliberate interference.

I shall give the Minister two examples now. Take the city of Galway. Until Telefís Éireann was established, there was perfect reception of UTV in Galway. Since Telefís Éireann was established, there is simply no possibility of seeing UTV in the Galway area. In Roscommon, up to the time Telefís Éireann started to beam its service down that way, we had a clear picture from the BBC. People in those areas bought their television sets before ever Telefís Éireann was heard of. In what position do these people find themselves now? They are lucky to get a blurred picture and, when they do get this blurred picture, bad as it is, the situation is aggravated by the sound interference; and this sound interference, in my opinion, comes at the most extraordinary times. It is intended evidently to interfere with some of the best programmes beamed from UTV and BBC in case the watching public might be induced to watch these programmes in preference to some of the rubbish Telefís Éireann has on at the same time.

When I say the rubbish that Telefís Éireann has on at the same time, I do not mean to suggest that all the programmes are bad—anything but. There are some excellent programmes at the moment and, although I am critical of Telefís Éireann, I admit that a great improvement has taken place with regard to the type of programme within the past 12 months. I do not think, however, that any of us can be satisfied with the standard at the moment. I am very interested when I hear Deputies talking about Telefís Éireann because I can very frequently know that they come from an area where UTV and the BBC are not available. If they were available, they would not praise Telefís Éireann so highly.

After all, the only way one can judge any service or programme is by contrast or comparison with some other similar programme or service. When one sets the programmes on Telefís Éireann side by side with those available elsewhere, it is then that the true situation is established. I shall be told, of course, that we have not got the money, and so forth, available in Telefís Éireann that is available to these other stations. I am not concerned with that. It would be a better proposition for this country to reduce the hours of operation and have good programmes as against filling in time with imported rubbish from America, rubbish on which somebody is making a damn good profit.

American films are shown which are practically worn out as a result of being re-run so often over the past ten years. They are now coming here, bought in bulk, I presume. I should like to know who the agent is who is making money on this. It is too bad that the public should have to suffer such a number of these programmes. We can, of course, cater for the lowest common denominator, if that is what Telefís Éireann is after. The Authority has a glorious opportunity to fulfil two functions—provide something which will help to educate the people and, at the same time, programmes that are amusing or interesting. A happy balance should be established. If we are to overload the screen with what I describe as rubbish, then I should prefer a blank screen for one or two hours. The public would be none the worse off.

When people look at this crazy box, they get hypnotised after a while and they forget that what they are looking at is, in fact, something which, if it were shown in the cinemas, they would refuse to go and see. It is all too easy to bring this rubbish into the home and have it there until people forget to ask questions and demand better programmes. The only way we will get better programmes is by co-operation with UTV and the BBC. Instead of erecting a green curtain along the Border we should have the greatest co-operation possible with the BBC and UTV. After all, if UTV and the BBC are encourged to beam their programmes to reach the farthest part of this country, that will generate a greater interest in television and thereby help Telefís Éireann. One can travel along roads in the west for ten or 15 miles without seeing a single television aerial. The people will not pay £5 for the sake of looking at Telefís Éireann but, if they had a choice of station and could look at Telefís Éireann when they felt like it, the revenue of the Department would be increased, through increased licence fees.

The new idea of school programmes is very welcome, but it is very limited. I can cast my mind back to the time when, in this House and outside it, people advocated that Radio Éireann should be used for a period every day for school programmes. That suggestion was thrown out. It is very sad now to find that only a select few will benefit from the new programme being made available on Telefís Éireann.

I believe the Minister has power to decide on what type of advertising takes place on Telefís Éireann, and I want to ask him, if he has the welfare of the young people at heart, to do something about television advertising of cigarette smoking. There is no use in telling me the Minister believes in the complete freedom of the individual. No one believes in the complete freedom of the individual to damage others. The Minister should not stand over the outrageous claims made in the advertisements for cigarette smoking.

If it is a question of making money, there are other ways of making money. After all, if a parish priest were building a church, I do not think he would be happy if someone said to him: "I will rob a bank and make you a present of £10,000." That person would be condemned by the priest. If the advertisements say cigarette smoking is healthy, and makes a person vigorous and "with it", they are inducing young people to harm their health, and they should not be given facilities to do that on a public service like television.

I can suggest an alternative method of making money to the Minister. He should tell the tobacco companies that he will allow them to advertise cigars and tobacco, but he should put the screws on so far as cigarettes are concerned. If necessary, he should suggest to them to reduce the price of tobacco, cigars and cheroots, and if that were done, I think quite a number of people who smoke cigarettes might be induced to smoke other tobaccos which are not considered harmful. That would leave the money in the Exchequer which is now obtained from the tax on cigarettes. The Minister is in a position to say: "I will not allow you to advertise on television unless you do that."

In addition, an effort should be made to alter the advertising times. There is nothing so frustrating in a half-hour programme as to find that in the middle of that programme we have to suffer a series of advertisements. In fact, if those people had any brains, they would realise that psychologically it is very bad to break into a half-hour programme. I find that if I want to buy an article, I will not buy the one which is advertised in the middle of a half-hour programme. That is a form of revenge, if you like, for annoying me. Many people think on those lines. I know we cannot force the Minister to get rid of advertising at present, but he has a duty to ensure that it is limited, and that short programmes are not interrupted by inane advertisements.

I should like the Minister to comment on the cigarette advertisements on Telefís Éireann because the dangers involved in cigarette smoking will have to be tackled soon at Government level. The Minister is in a position to take immediate steps to prevent improper advertising of that matter, without harming anyone, and without any restriction on the rights of the individual.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Hilliard)

During the course of his speech on 6th May, Deputy Dillon asked me about the wage claim of some Post Office grades. I regret that in the reply which I made at that time I inadvertently misled the Deputy. The reference is column 1088 and column 1089 of the Official Report. I said, correctly, that it is the Minister for Finance who deals with pay claims which the staff association request to have submitted to the arbitrator. In reply to a further question, I gave the impression that the claim had been heard by the arbitrator. What I had in mind was that this claim had been disposed of by the departmental conciliation council some little time ago. I have since ascertained that it has not yet been heard by the arbitrator. The order in which claims are taken by the arbitrator is settled between the staff representatives and the Department of Finance. I understand the claim may be at present before the arbitrator.

Mr. Dillon

At present?

Mr. Hilliard

At present.

Mr. Dillon

I am obliged to the Minister for his correction.

Mr. Hilliard

Thank you. Another matter which was raised in the course of the debate was the pirate broadcasts from ships. I want to tell the House that fresh legislation would be necessary before this Administration could take any effective action against the pirate broadcasts. The Council of Europe has under consideration a Convention aimed at preventing broadcasting from ships outside territorial waters. It is felt that the question of introducing fresh legislation in this country should not be pursued until agreement has been reached at the Council of Europe regarding the concerted action to be taken.

The Department has of course already taken the one action open to it under existing legislation in that it has suspended since February, 1963, the radiotelephone and radiotelegraph services between the Irish coast radio stations at Malin Head and Valentia and any ship outside national territories engaged in broadcasting. This suspension applies to all kinds of correspondence except messages affecting safety of life or navigation.

Deputy Sweetman questioned me about the meaning of a simple sentence in the English language. He intervened to say he did not understand one particular sentence in my opening remarks. It appeared to me that Deputy Sweetman, thinking the sentence was not correct, and apparently not understanding its meaning was ready to pounce on the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and on the Minister for permitting a glaring mistake of this nature to appear in the script. Deputy Sweetman avails of every opportunity he possibly can to highlight the Department as a Department of inefficiency and maladministration. I explained the meaning of the sentence to Deputy Sweetman and I told him it was a simple sentence in the English language and should be easily understood but Deputy Sweetman seemed to persist in saying that it was an awkward kind of sentence. I knew that Deputy Sweetman felt a bit humiliated as he stood there self-confessed to the House as being unable to understand a simple sentence in the English language and out of the fullness of the good nature with which God has endowed me, and for which my late parents were so well noted, I tried to soften Deputy Sweetman's humiliation by telling him it took me 15 minutes to understand the sentence without any consultation.

When it came to Deputy Sweetman's turn to take part in this debate, he jumped up, and like the dog that bites the hand that feeds it, he snarled across the House at me; he bared his teeth and in the temper for which he is noted the bristles on the upper part of his lip stood on end and he tried in a slick manner to get on to the records of the House that I was the one who did not understand the sentence. That was the reward I got from Deputy Sweetman for assisting him to understand a simple sentence in the English language. I have come to the conclusion that Deputy Sweetman likes to hear himself abusing other people in what are known as dictatorial phrases. I have a suspicion that Deputy Sweetman has some grudge which he is nursing against the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and the reason I think that is so is that he never misses an opportunity to launch savage attacks on the personnel of the Department.

I feel constrained here and now to do what I think has not been done before in this House by a Minister, that is, in a detailed way, to defend the men and women who are serving this country so well in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. This Department is constituted in the same manner as any other Department of State. The chiefs of the Department are recruited in the same manner as their counterparts in any other Department. The other grades are recruited in the same way; they come in through public competition conducted by the Civil Service Commissioners or in the very low grades—we call them "low" for want of a better term but I do not like using the word—they are appointed in other ways. By and large, the 18,000 souls employed in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs deserve better treatment from Deputy Sweetman and other Deputies of the Fine Gael Party who launched attacks on them here in this and other debates.

We are fortunate in this country to be blessed with a community who are honest in their approach to the problems of life and honest in the service they render to their employers. Our people, in view of their history, enjoy the highest reputation for honesty and integrity in the public and private sectors. It will serves the public interest to highlight in the House any deficiencies that occur in the Post Office in relation to valuables the Post Office people handle, if and when in a very small number of cases valuables are lost by being extracted by the very few people employed by the Post Office who may be guilty of such offences.

The Post Office handles million of letters and millions of parcels per year. Many of the letters contain valuables, money and dollar bills from America. There is not much point in Deputies holding forth here, asking questions and making charges against the Post Office administration in relation to the very small number of items that are lost, or the very small number of valuables extracted from packages carried by Post Office staffs, if they will not go to the trouble of giving the Post Office Investigation Branch all the details as quickly as they possibly can so that action can be taken to try to find the offenders.

Mr. Dillon

To what speech is the Minister referring?

Mr. Hilliard

Deputy Sweetman charged the post office with maladministration and this is one aspect of the alleged maladministration——

Mr. A. Barry

Did anybody specify this matter?

Mr. Hilliard

Another Deputy up there.

Mr. Dillon

Another Deputy, that is the point. Who was he?

Mr. Hilliard

Deputy Ryan has been asking questions about valuables taken out of envelopes going to a certain address in his constituency. I am defending the personnel in the Post Office who give such valuable and unappreciated service to the State, both at home and abroad.

Mr. Dillon

The only reference I heard on this was from the Independent benches, as the Minister knows.

Mr. Hilliard

Deputy Ryan has referred to it, too. Do not let Deputy Dillon forget that.

Mr. Dillon

I notice the Minister forgets the source of the other criticisms.

Mr. Hilliard

I do not. I said it. Deputies have been writing in to the Department.

Mr. A. Barry

Is that not what the Minister wants?

Mr. Hilliard

Yes, I want it absolutely. However, I want to tell the House the Investigation Branch are ever alert and ever mindful of the obligations that have been placed upon them to follow whatever information they get and to keep an eye on any losses that may occur in the postal services. As regards the people who are found guilty of these offences, the branch must bring them to court or take whatever other action the Minister can take against them and dispense with their services in the Post Office.

The Post Office has a secretary, a talented man of high repute, a first class administrator, a man of ability who can give advice to a Minister to enable him to control the Department. The same applies to the heads of the other branches in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, and I cannot see why Deputy Sweetman should make such savage attacks on the Department.

I have no objection to any Deputy challenging me with dereliction of duty or want of intelligence in the administration of the Department. I have no objection whatsoever to a Deputy holding me responsible for any deficiencies that may exist in the Post Office or in the Department. That is what I am here for and that is what this Parliament is here for, so that the affairs of the Post Office may be discussed openly and above board. Therefore any Deputy is quite free to make whatever complaints, suggestions or observations he wishes in relation to the administration of the Department.

Over the past year, many claims have been made on the Post Office by the representatives of the staffs. It is not merely the ninth round or 12 per cent increase that is involved. I have already indicated to the House we have had many status claims made on behalf of the staffs. These status claims were submitted to the departmental council. Some of them have been determined by the arbitrator and others are still pending. During the year, also, the subpostmasters, through their representatives on the conciliation council set up specially to deal with their case, have agreed to certain proposals in respect of increased remuneration. In addition, they will obtain the ninth round or 12 per cent increase.

It is calculated that in a full year the increases will amount to £2,500,000. My problem is to collect that amount of money to pay the staffs. It has always been the practice and the settled policy since the foundation of the State that the Post Office should pay its way one year with another. Deputy Dillon seemed to think, from what he said in this debate, that increasing Post Office charges to customers was a fraudulent and deceitful method of escaping a further increase in taxation, that I was really letting the Minister for Finance out, and the increased charges should be provided for by additional taxation.

Deputy Rooney said it was a £2 million trick. The Labour Party Deputies have made their policy statement in relation to this practice or principle which has stood the test of time since the State was founded, that the Post Office should pay its way. I felt I had an obligation to continue that policy. I can assure the House and Deputy Dillon that I put the proposals contained in the published statement setting out the increased charges to the Government for approval and that I was not asked by the Government to increase postal charges as a substitute for additional taxation proposed in the normal way by the Minister for Finance. I am not being used by the Government to extract £2,500,000 from the people. I am following the practice which has obtained since the State was founded.

There were increased charges in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in 1956. On 4th June, 1956, it was proposed to raise the telephone rates as from 1st July, 1956. The telegraph rate had been increased previously. I do not like referring to deceased Deputies or quoting what they said, or making reference to what they are reported to have said in the Official Debates, but suffice it for me to say that in 1956 the then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, who unfortunately is no longer with us, assured Deputy Childers in this House when he asked him some question in this regard that he was following out the settled policy of previous Administrations and he was convinced that it was the proper thing to do. He had convinced himself, and said from the first time he set foot in the Post Office, that the Post Office was to pay its way, and that the only method by which the Post Office would pay its way was by increasing the charges for Post Office services in order to obtain the increased revenue needed to pay the increased costs, from whatever source they arose.

He also said at the time that the costs arose from increased pay awards. I fail to see why Deputies speaking from the Labour Benches think that because I followed exactly the same course as the then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, I was pointing my finger at the auxiliary postmen, the cleaners in the Post Office, the unestablished postmen or any other employee of the Post Office and bringing public attention to bear on these people in the sense that they, and they alone, are responsible for the increased postal charges.

I was glad to hear the Labour Party announcement of policy on this matter. I assumed that the Labour Party have committed themselves to the policy that the Post Office should pay its way. I was convinced on that point when I brought the matter to the notice of Deputy Tully when he was speaking here on this Estimate. He felt cross at me when I made reference to that point, but I did so in all honesty.

It is a good thing to know, and to have it from the Leader of the Labour Party, what the Labour Party's attitude is on this question now. As I understand it, and as I understood from the speech by Deputy Corish, Leader of the Labour Party, the Labour Party advocate a different policy from that advocated by me on this matter. The Labour Party believe now that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs should be treated as an ordinary Civil Service Department, the same as the Department of Health, the Department of Defence or any other Department of State, and that the Department should depend on the revenue from taxation, through the Minister for Finance, for whatever deficits might arise from year to year.

It would seem to me from the statement made by the Leader of the Labour Party that the Labour Party were prepared to go further than that and that they might consider the financing of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs entirely from the Department of Finance, with a refund of whatever income the Department of Posts and Telegraphs secured in any given year. It might be that the Labour Party would favour the handling of this matter entirely by a Civil Service Department in the same sense as the Department of Defence, the Department of Health or any other Department, and not bother about income which the Post Office might or might not earn.

The Leader of the Fine Gael Party was not so clear in his policy statement, if he made a policy statement. Neither was any of the other Deputies of the Fine Gael Party clear on this question. I should be glad if the Fine Gael Party would make up their minds on this matter and say once and for all whether they subscribe to the principle that the Post Office should be subsidised out of taxation.

I wonder if the decision were taken to meet the deficits arising in the Post Office this year and last year as a result of pay increases and pay awards to the staffs in the Post Office and to the increased remuneration being paid to the subpostmasters, by subsidising the Post Office to that extent, and additional taxation were needed by the Minister for Finance, would the members of the Fine Gael Party do exactly as they did on the Budget divisions and vote against any increase in taxation to enable the Post Office to meet deficits that arose last year as a result of the retrospective awards and the status claims that will arise next year?

Last year, the deficit was £300,000. This year it will be close on £2 million. Anyway, it will be over £1½ million. If I do not secure the necessary revenue from the increased charges which I have indicated in my public statement to the Press, and here in this House by circulation on the day I introduced my Estimate, I will have to take the necessary steps to meet the cost. There are no two ways on this matter. We must, if we are to continue the system of arbitration and conciliation, and if we are to meet the national agreements which have been arrived at in this State in relation to the pay awards, take the necessary steps to meet the cost. In so far as the Department of Posts and Telegraphs is concerned, it is my view that the Department should as far as possible pay its way. The increases in charges for postal services will not fully provide the increased amount of money needed to meet the pay awards.

Mr. A. Barry

Is that because you anticipate a decline in the use of the postal services?

Mr. Hilliard

No.

Mr. A. Barry

Do you anticipate any decline?

Mr. Hilliard

The increased charges will not fully meet the amount of money needed even if we have no decline in any of the services. The increase in postal charges will not meet the full amount needed to meet the increased pay awards.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Does the Minister mean to increase the whole range?

Mr. Hilliard

Yes, the whole range. I have had the whole range of our services and their costs examined. It is not true to say that these increases have been arrived at in a haphazard way. That is not a fact. We were faced with the task of securing a certain amount of money and I had to go through the whole range of services and make each service bear its share of the cost.

I think I have dealt fairly fully with this question of increased charges and the reasons for these increases. It naturally follows that if the motion which Fine Gael have tabled on this occasion, and which has been taken with this Estimate, is by any chance passed by this House, I shall not be able to pay the staff of the Post Office the increases which have been awarded or are in the course of being awarded, by the arbitrator. I shall not be able to pay the additional remuneration which has been agreed on in the case of the subpostmasters, for whom Deputy O'Donnell's heart was bleeding——

Mr. P. O'Donnell

And has been down through the years.

Mr. Hilliard

——and for a long number of years has been bleeding. He has been pressing me for a long time to do something about the subpostmasters. I do not think there is any consistency whatsoever in a Deputy who will press me to give increases or arrange for increases to subpostmasters and, when we arrive at an arrangement or agreement to pay the increases, will support a motion to prevent the necessary money being raised to pay them.

As I have said before, Deputy Dillon said that this was a fraudulent and deceptive method of imposing fresh taxation. I do not think there was anything fraudulent or deceitful about the claims that were made by the staffs in the Post Office for status or other increases. I do not think there was anything fraudulent or deceitful in the manner in which these claims were handled at arbitration. I do not think there was anything fraudulent or deceitful in my announcement that the post office users would pay for the increases through the medium of increased postal charges. I do not think there is anything deceitful in making an arrangement with the subpostmasters, through conciliation, to give them extra remuneration.

The subpostmasters, as we know, were excluded from conciliation and arbitration in 1949. They were fobbed off in 1956 with a consultative council and in 1956 the then Administration took every possible step they could take to exclude the word "conciliation" from the title of the council they set up and they called it a consultative council.

During the past year, the subpostmasters withdrew their services. There were two strikes, as a matter of fact. In the course of the second withdrawal of labour, there was an announcement of policy from the Fine Gael Party. After a meeting of the Central Committee of the Party, the Leader of the Party, Deputy Dillon, announced that the Party, or he himself, was in favour of the admission of the claims of the subpostmasters to arbitration. We are here now with an agreement to give the subpostmasters an increase in their remuneration and Deputy Dillon will vote against the raising of the necessary moneys to meet the claim. I call that the essence of fraudulent and deceitful behaviour.

It is small wonder that the people of this country have taken the measure of Deputy Dillon. It is small wonder that they regard him as the purveyor of fraudulent and deceitful statements of policy in relation to his Party. They want to increase the pay of the auxiliary postmen; they want to increase the pay of all the staffs in the Post Office; they want to spend money on various services in the Post Office; they advocate that every time an Estimate is debated here for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs; but, when it comes to providing the necessary moneys, they will not vote for it either through the medium of taxation or through the medium of increased charges. That is what I call a two-way system whereby they think they are fooling the workers in the Post Office and codding the voters from whom they think they will catch a few votes at any election, by voting against increased taxation or increased charges.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

We did not cod the subpostmasters the way the Minister did.

Mr. Hilliard

The Deputy's Government fobbed them off with a consultative council. I gave them a conciliation council and I gave them a commission of inquiry into the workings of the system.

Let us get down to the question of the telephone service and the provision of telephones. My estimate of the needs of the telephone service can be measured, as can also Deputy Sweetman's estimate. There is not much trouble in measuring either estimate. In 1956, he and his Government provided through the instrumentality of the Telephone Capital Bill capital to the extent of £6 million for the development of the telephone service and this year I am investing £6 million in the development of the telephone service—in one year. But, in 1956, the then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs was very perturbed about his £6 million Capital Bill that was provided for by his Government. He expressed himself on a few occasions in relation to it. He was wishing that he had £8 million instead of the £6 million, and he said that if he had £8 million he would not have to cut down on some of the development work that he had prepared. He referred to the shortage of capital then obtaining. He made reference to the fact that money was needed for other purposes at the time and he spoke of what he proposed to do with the limited amount of capital made available to him.

Every time this question of shortage of capital in 1956 is mentioned, it draws from both Deputy Sweetman and Deputy Dillon a most shocking reaction. They make all classes of savage attacks on me and on the Department of Posts and Telegraphs because I have the hardihood to mention this question of shortage of capital in 1956. But the then Minister for Posts and Telegraphs had no compunction whatsoever in making reference to it. He indicated that if he had more capital he could do more to develop the telephone service. In my view, he knew the problem he had on his hands in relation to the extension and further development of the telephone service. He said this:

We are concentrating at the moment on setting up small exchanges such as in Mullingar to link up with those remote areas and in that way to penetrate into the dark vastnesses that have not been penetrated. That will probably be difficult solely because I am not looking for enough money but we are not going to abandon any scheme we have on the programme.

He was talking about providing a telephone service in the dark vastnesses. He was putting up a telephone exchange in Mullingar. He said his aim was to continue the improvement of trunk services, particularly on routes on which there were delays. There were delays then as well as now. He said the programme would have to be a restricted one as compared with that which would be undertaken if there were no capital difficulties. He said he personally would have liked to have looked for £2 million more as he told the Dáil when introducing the last Telephone Capital Bill. That was for £8 million and covered a period of five years. He was looking for £6 million to cover a period of four years.

Mr. A. Barry

What is the Minister looking for?

Mr. Hilliard

In 1960, I introduced a Bill for £10 million for five years and we have that money already invested in the service. Last year, I brought in a Bill for £30 million. That is £40 million for less than a decade. I think Deputy Dillon, Deputy Sweetman and Deputy P. O'Donnell just cannot understand the extent of the investment this Government contemplate for the development and extension of the telephone service. It is something they could not think of when in office themselves.

Deputy P. O'Donnell, a Front Bench member of Fine Gael, threw out a suggestion at the end of his speech that the telephone service should be developed by a public company such as the ESB. I do not know if that is the policy of Fine Gael. I believe it is Deputy P. O'Donnell's own suggestion. Fine Gael deputies are great at throwing out suggestions, but when they are in Government they will not do these things themselves. He was talking about going to the public for further capital for the telephone service. At present we have no difficulty in obtaining the capital needed. The capital for the telephone service comes out of the public savings invested in the Post Office. What better way is there of getting capital for the telephone service than through this medium?

Deputy P. O'Donnell also made a statement, that was either blatantly dishonest or stupidly foolish, in relation to what he called the recurring blister imposed on the users of the postal services to pay for the increased investment in the telephone service. That is not so. That money was needed to pay staff and not pay for the telephone service. We have no difficulty in getting the necessary capital. The difficulty lies in the converting of that capital into equipment, in getting that equipment into the country quickly enough, in getting sufficiently trained staff to use it so that the exchanges can be extended, outlets from the exchanges increased, trunk lines installed, underground and overground cables fitted as soon as possible. This is a tremendous, long-term task. It is something that cannot be completed in a short time.

I have already indicated my assessment of the needs of the telephone service in reply to Deputy A. Barry: £40 million of an investment in a decade, mainly for equipment and for the staff necessary to operate this equipment. This tremendous undertaking is now in full spate. It has been going on since 1960, long before the Fine Gael Deputies thought about making any suggestion for an efficient and effective telephone service.

I recognise that this is nation building, that an efficient and effective telephone service is necessary for the expanding economy we enjoy. I recognise the future of this country depends on increased productivity and exports, increased work in factory and field, and that it is absolutely necessary to have an efficient and effective telephone service to serve those needs.

Mr. A. Barry

You must not be speaking like a prophet. Most of us recognise those things.

Mr. Hilliard

You did not tell us that and did not provide the money to do it. However, I have nothing to say to Deputy Barry. He was quite fair and co-operative.

Mr. A. Barry

The Minister will agree that the cost will mount every year? It should rise.

Mr. Hilliard

The Engineering Branch and the Telephone Branch are staffed in much the same way as other branches of the public service. The Telephone Branch is controlled by civil servants and the Engineering Branch by engineering graduates from our own universities. The staff is composed in the main of personnel trained in the country by the serving staff. I am satisfied these men have the knowledge to enable them to carry out this programme of work. I would much prefer to rely on their advice in this matter than on the suggestions tendered to me by Deputy Sweetman or any other Deputy who may not be fully equipped to assess the extent and complexity of the work as they are. It is their job. That is the only method by which I, as Minister, can carry out this all-important programme of reconstructing almost completely the telephone network.

The provision of extra telephonists in the Central Exchange or any other exchange in Dublin would not improve the situation in view of what I have told the House in regard to the requirements of the telephone service. It is true we are increasing the telephone staff this year. Deputy Dillon seemed to think we are doing it at his suggestion. Last year, he and other Deputies suggested recruiting further telephonists in order to relieve the pressure on the Central Exchange in Dublin in the summer. I know that pressure on the Central Exchange last summer was terrific and the exchange just could not handle all the traffic offered because of deficiencies on the technical side.

The people responsible for maintaining exchanges know exactly the number of personnel that can usefully be employed in an exchange. One has to have work positions and sufficient outlets to enable each person to be usefully employed. If one has not got sufficient outlets and work positions there is no point in having a number of telephonists standing in the exchange with nothing to do. The number of telephonists in exchanges will be increased so soon as work positions are available and additional outlets are provided to enable personnel to be usefully employed. That is just plain common sense. There is no other way out of the situation.

I have indicated to the House the vastness of the job on which I am engaged in providing this country with an efficient and effective telephone service. I should like now to make some comment on the waiting list of applicants. It is true that there has been at all times over a long number of years a waiting list of applicants. This is a service in which one can hardly avoid having a waiting list. There are on the waiting list, I know, a number of people who applied up to three years ago. There may be one or two who applied earlier than that. I am aware of that but, when I was making my decisions in regard to the carrying out of this programme, I knew that the decision to defer applications for new telephones would not be a very popular one. I do not see how it could be. One is dealing with human beings and they naturally will complain if they cannot get the telephone within a reasonable time after making application. They write to the Minister, to their local Deputies, local Senators, to the papers. They will raise the matter as best they can. There are large numbers who do not write to anybody. They just sit and wait. The decision to defer applications was made deliberately by me because I felt it was much better to provide the essentials absolutely required, and quickly, to enable the users of the telephone to have the best use of the service until it was fully improved.

There is another aspect of this matter I should like to bring to the attention of the House. The capital cost of installing a telephone is not met fully by the subscriber. Where one has to instal a telephone three miles, or maybe more, from the exchange the capital costs are very high. It is my job to conserve as far as I possibly can the capital made available to me for the more essential part of the work, namely, the purchase of this very heavy equipment, which is very, very expensive, to enable the engineers to complete as quickly as they possibly can the work they have in hand. It is no pleasure for me to have people on a waiting list for telephones. None whatever. I am having a look at the cases on the list for a long time to see if anything can be done to have their applications dealt with now.

We have reached the stage in this all-embracing programme at which we can look forward at least to the day when we can tackle more vigorously and with greater effort the waiting list of applicants. I could by an administrative decision direct the Engineering Branch to connect applicants on the waiting list and they would do that, I suppose, inside a year. I will not do that for the reasons I have stated. I think the decisions I have taken are the correct decisions and the proper decisions, even though they may mean a good deal of criticism and a good deal of complaint, a good deal of grumbling from the people on the waiting list and, in some cases, a good deal of misunderstanding. I am prepared to put up with that in the knowledge that the Engineering Branch are going full steam ahead with the provision of the essentials absolutely needed to give the country this service.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Could the Minister indicate at all when the backlog of applicants will be disposed of?

Mr. Hilliard

There are always new applicants coming on.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I am not referring to those.

Mr. Hilliard

I know, but I want to explain. The Engineering Branch are continually taking applicants off the waiting list by installing telephones. They do that in areas. They clear an area as far as they possibly can. As the Deputy knows, there is a reason for that. The Deputy understands the matter very well. About a year and a half from now, we should be in a position to deal more vigorously with the waiting list. We will be able to assess the situation and get a clear picture of how we stand.

Mr. A. Barry

And from that on there will be nobody waiting longer than a year?

Mr. Hilliard

I shall not commit myself on a matter of that kind. In so far as the service itself is concerned, we have had many complaints here in regard to it. We have had complaints about people not getting service when they dial or suffering delay. It is true that in a service of this kind one simply cannot get perfection. It is not within the ingenuity of man to perfect a machine that will give 100 per cent service at all times and the telephone service is no different from any other complicated machine man has invented. We are not alone in suffering delay and frustration in making telephone calls. In the Irish Times of 21/8/63 an article appeared in the “London Letter” headed “Wrong Number”. Reading it, one would imagine one was in Leinster House listening to a Fine Gael Deputy complaining.

Telephone subscribers in the Republic can, perhaps, gain some consolation from the fact that services in many parts of this country also leave much to be desired. Eighteen years after the end of the war many potential subscribers are still awaiting connection.

And those who do possess telephones frequently experience inordinate delays in making calls over quite short distances. For London subscribers, at any rate, another hazard has recently been added to all the others. This is the frequency with which one gets either the wrong number or no ringing tone when dialing local calls.

This latest development is possibly due to two causes, or a mixture of both. One is the introduction of subscriber trunk dialling, which, being a complicated system, could lead to greater error in the post office's equipment. The other is that some automatic exchanges are just worn out. But whatever the reason the sum effect is frustration and annoyance not to mention wasted pence.

As far as subscriber trunk dialling is concerned, we are installing subscriber trunk dialling here.

Deputy Sweetman had complaints about the automatic exchanges in Kildare. Unfortunately, when the automatic exchanges were opened in Kildare, we ran into a good deal of trouble with them, through no fault of the engineers of the Department. They rectified whatever mistakes appeared in the system. Deputy Sweetman admitted that the local call areas served by the exchanges were all right. The difficulty arose in relation to calls made outside the local call areas. That matter will be looked into, and is being looked into, but unfortunately these deficiencies and these faults arise. When there is a fault on a line and a person dials, he can dial until he gets tired and get no answer. It is not easy to account for these matters, nor is it easy to find a solution for them.

In that connection, The Times of 26th August, 1963, had this to say about tricks of the telephone subscriber trunk dialling system:

Subscriber trunk dialling was ushered into this country almost five years ago in a blaze of progressive, go-ahead publicity by the Post Office. By 1965, after some fits and starts—like the business in Kildare — rather more than half the subscribers in the country will be able to test the claims made on behalf of the system. The grand design itself can hardly be faulted. It is convenient to be able to dial distant telephones directly, a convenience often taken for granted when the variable quality of operator service has disappeared from the memory. That being said there is—in the report published on another page today—a suspiciously defensive note in the Post Office's answers to some common criticisms of the service. We are told that there appears to have been an increase in the number of crossed lines, due to faults in the machinery; but that these represent "only a small percentage" in view of the volume of traffic handled.

Some people may well wonder whether the percentage is as small as all that and whether, in view of the very large amount of capital being sunk into the telephones system each year, they should not demand a higher standard of efficiency. To say that the system handles a "fantastic number" of calls each year is really no answer. Both the Postmaster General and his deputy have been willing to brag about the success of their work here, pointing to the rapid increase in the annual total of trunk calls since STD began. Hence a "small percentage" means a steady rise in the absolute figures of abortive telephone calls. Why? Is the machinery being overloaded, or is it poorly maintained? Or are we to be told, yet again, that these are merely teething troubles which are inseparable from any major programme?

It may be true, as the Post Office says, that some proportion of the difficulties are caused by people who are unfamiliar with the technique required for the new method of dialling.

There is a good deal in that. It continues:

Even the regular user of the telephone may, at the start, find it relatively simple in a moment of aberration to find himself speaking to a florist's in Bradford instead of the shipwright in Bristol that he wanted to talk to. This kind of error will be reduced by practice. But it does not account for being precipitated into the middle of the conversation of utter strangers, for having one's own conversation interrupted by other callers, or for the prolonged and enigmatic silences— much longer than eight seconds, incidentally — which the system frequently imposes upon the caller. In short, there is much room for improvement. The system may, like its human counterparts, have off days. It certainly shows an almost sentiment perversity from time to time.

Mr. A. Barry

The Minister should ring up the Postmaster General.

Mr. Hilliard

I have another article dealing with telephones in Britain which gives the numbers on the waiting list. There are thousands on the waiting list. I shall not burden the House by reading this long article but I shall read the first sentence:

"It is all very well this Telstar business" wrote one old lady to the Chief Engineer of the Post Office. "I would just wish you would move my telephone to the back room."

Apparently this lady wanted to have her phone removed from one room to another, and the Post Office were not able to get around to doing the job for her, while someone was talking about Telstar. When I mentioned Telstar in my opening statement, I thought great play would be made by Opposition Deputies about the anxiety we were showing in relation to intercommunication by Telstar, and the number of people on the waiting list for telephones, or who wanted an extension to their phones. As I say, this old lady was seeking to have her phone moved from one room to another, and the great organisation of the British Post Office was not able to facilitate her.

I would not wish the House, or anyone else, to think I would be satisfied with an inefficient or bad telephone service. I hope that when I am leaving the office of Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, the telephone service will be improved out of recognition by the work I am doing.

Mr. A. Barry

We all join with the Minister in that hope.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Hear, hear.

Mr. Hilliard

The ground work which has been laid since the Government authorised me to bring in the Act providing for £10 million, will be of immense benefit to whoever succeeds me as Minister. I feel that every day, and every hour, I have been in this office I have justified myself as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs.

Mr. A. Barry

The Minister should not get too satisfied. That is a bad human failing.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Can the Minister tell us what the overnight charge for telegrams will be from now on?

Mr. Hilliard

I announced what the charges will be some time ago.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

It was 1/6d.

Mr. Hilliard

It was 1/6d. and it will now be one and whatever it is.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

That is the trouble. No one makes any public announcement. We would like to know.

Mr. Hilliard

I have not finished yet. The Deputy inquired about the charges for telegrams, and he is now inquiring again. The charges were set out in a Press announcement of 15th April. Instead of the present charge of 1/6d. for 12 words and 3d. for each extra word, the charge will now be 2/6d. for 12 words and 5d. for each extra word.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

That is not too bad.

Mr. Hilliard

Now the Deputy knows. Deputy Kyne asked me about the buildings and supplies branch. He raised the question on the 1962/63 Estimate also, of the purchase of a site for a new post office at Dungarvan. A rights to light question, between the vendor and an adjoining tenant which needed to be investigated before building operations could commence, has been resolved to the satisfaction of the Department and a contract for the sale of the property has been executed. The remaining legal formalities in connection with the purchase of the site are proving to be more troublesome than originally expected but every effort is being made to complete the purchase as soon as possible. The Office of Public Works have prepared preliminary plans for the erection of a new post office and automatic exchange on the site.

Deputy Treacy criticised the pay for the hours of attendance of night and Sunday telephone attendants. The present rates of pay were settled following agreement between the Post Office and the union in March, 1962 and were increased by 12 per cent, the ninth round, from 1st February. A claim for improvement in the present rates is being considered under conciliation and arbitration. These are paid on an hourly basis and no request has been received for a reduction in the existing hours, but if any such request was received, it would be considered sympathethically. The number of hours of attendance varies widely and is usually agreed on between the night and Sunday telephone attendants and the local postmaster. As Deputy Treacy indicated, these people do not work throughout the night and after midnight only deal with occasional calls which are in fact so rare that an attendant is provided with a bed and an especially loud bell rings to awaken him if a call comes in.

Several Deputies raised the question of the present uniform, which is made of a woollen and worsted material. It was introduced in 1955 after consultation with the men's union. Having regard to the nature of their work, the uniform has to be a good quality and capable of standing up to the abrasive action of postbags. A claim received from the Post Office Union suggested that the uniform tends to become baggy and shows up dust. Deputies have also brought this matter to my attention. I want to tell the House that discussions have been initiated with a view to obtaining an improved quality of cloth which will be more serviceable and have a better finish and give better service.

Deputy A. Barry raised the question of the symphony orchestra and suggested it should give performances in the provinces more often. The radio orchestra has achieved its primary aim when it broadcasts. It is well recognised that even radio orchestras must appear occasionally in public, if only to maintain interest in their work. Nothing can be worse than allowing instrumentalists to feel they are all the time playing in a vacuum. That is why audiences are allowed into the studio to hear the orchestras. I use the plural because we have of course two orchestras, the Symphony Orchestra and the Radio Éireann Light Orchestra. Deputy Barry knows that and appreciates it. This in part has been the justification for allowing orchestras to participate in public performances of opera and ballet at many concerts in theatres and halls throughout the country. This has added considerably to the cultural life of the country, as Deputy Barry said, but it also added considerably to the cost of the orchestra and with salaries and other costs mounting, the point has been reached where Radio Éireann must look closely at any commitments by way of tours or otherwise. I deeply regret that we have to look at this matter in this way.

Mr. A. Barry

Is there any possibility that you could let them get back to the programme of the year before last?

Mr. Hilliard

What is that?

Mr. A. Barry

There was about one-fifth more external appearances.

Mr. Hilliard

I understand that the Authority had planned to give four concerts in Cork, one in Limerick and one in Waterford, in 1963-64. The Limerick concert had to be postponed on that occasion and five were given to Cork. I know that this matter of providing concerts in public is constantly before the Authority and that they will have read Deputy Barry's remarks with attention. Personally I am fond of good music and avail of every opportunity of hearing it and I must confess I always have been. I should like to agree also with Deputy Jones in regard to the television nature programmes, those relating to the zoo and so on. I have always been fond of such programmes. As Minister, however, I cannot give the Authority any direction and I feel the Authority must be allowed to decide these questions themselves. Having regard to the extra cost and the support given to previous concerts, it must be borne in mind that the cost of the orchestra is already quite high compared with the number of listeners and viewers. It is a pity that we cannot spend much more money on an orchestra such as the Symphony Orchestra or the Light Orchestra.

Deputy Sweetman had something to say about the postal service between here and Great Britain. The service between Ireland and Great Britain is organised to give afternoon delivery in London. The use of the air service for transit means that mails arrive earlier than when the steamer service between Dun Laoghaire and Holyhead was used. This has enabled us to give better service and in Naas, for instance, the collection time is 6 p.m. for next day delivery in London. In the reverse direction, I understand the latest hour of posting is 3.30 in the afternoon. This is a matter for the British Post Office but by and large the service works to schedule, but like printers' errors and slips made by the most polished speaker, it is beyond human nature to expect there will not be the occasional lapse and that the odd letter somehow or other should not manage to escape the normal treatment.

Deputy Crotty inquired about a claim on behalf of postmasters and why it has not been dealt with. A status claim was received in December, 1963 and received a preliminary hearing in January, 1964. In all, over 30 claims were received in the period September, 1963 to January, 1964. Deputies will appreciate that it is not possible to deal with all claims immediately and the order in which they are dealt with is agreed upon with the Staff Side. I cannot say exactly when the postmasters' claim will be dealt with but all claims will be disposed of as quickly as possible.

The question of piped or wired television was raised by Deputy O'Donnell. The Deputy spoke to me in my office some time ago about this matter. Listening to Deputy O'Donnell speaking here, one would think that the group of people he mentioned were going to provide this piped television out of their own good nature, that they were philantropists. They were coming in as business people looking for a concession. I think they wanted a monopoly. Other people were seeking the same concession. There are people in Deputy A. Barry's city who would be glad to go ahead with that sort of work. When we came to discuss it, we found that the local authorities had not the power to grant authority for the erection of masts. That has been rectified by the Minister for Local Government in legislation. Deputy O'Donnell's group was not the first group and other people wrote to the Department earlier. It was the first time that an outside person brought it to my notice. I presume that Deputy O'Donnell called as a Deputy on me in this matter. Having consulted with the Broadcasting Authority and with the responsible officials in the Department of Posts and Telegraphs on this question, I was advised against giving this concession to anybody except for transmissions from our own station. We gave a limited licence and power to erect a single aerial for this sort of reception for flats and a limited number of houses.

Mr. A. Barry

They could receive Telefís Éireann only.

Mr. Hilliard

The one station only. That apparently did not meet the desires of the people who wanted to get the concession of piped television reception. This matter will be considered again. The Authority asked me to defer making any concession to anybody in relation to it, otherwise than as I have stated, until the Authority found its feet and was in a position to withstand competition that might come from piped television through the other stations broadcasting to this country. As I am sure Deputies will know, piped television will give better reception over a wider area from stations outside the country.

Deputy Jones referred to the delay of six weeks in the publication of the statutory notice of the erection of telegraph lines. This obligation applies to the extension of overhead telephone lines along the public thoroughfares. The elimination of this obligation would relieve the Department of a moderate amount of administration work but would not effect the majority of cases at present on the waiting list in relation to the overall completion of the installation work involved.

Mr. A. Barry

Would the Minister bear in mind the need for discretion in making these telephone connections? I think Deputy Tully referred to the poles erected in front of the average house.

Mr. Hilliard

I shall do that. It is a question of cost as well.

Mr. A. Barry

Sometimes these things are worth money.

Mr. Hilliard

I shall give attention to it anyway. Some Deputy asked me about television satellite transmitters and transposers. The expression "satellite transmitter" is loosely used to describe a low powered transmitter to which TV programmes may be fed in one of a number of ways, for example, by coaxial cable, or by microwave link or direct from another transmitter. The word "transposer" on the other hand has a more definite meaning in that it describes a piece of equipment which is a combined TV receiver and transmitter. Actually it receives the programme off the air from another transmitter and rebroadcasts it on a different channel.

The Authority's satellite programme is in two stages. Stage I comprises the transposer which is now serving the northern part of Cork city; low power satellite equipment to cover the South Dublin region and which will involve separate transmitters for the 625 and 405 line standards; three transposers for County Donegal, one for County Monaghan and one for the Cobh, County Cork area.

This stage should be completed by early 1965. Stage II has not progressed far enough to enable definite plans to be made to cover other areas of poor reception. On present estimates, stages I and II may cost £150,000 in all.

I was also asked about the VHF service. That is considered to be the best technical solution to the problem of providing sound broadcasting coverage in areas where it is at present unsatisfactory. I decided after consultation and advice tendered to me by the Broadcasting Authority and by the Department to go ahead with the provision of the necessary capital moneys to enable them to provide this VHF service. I know it will mean that a large number of radio receivers will not be capable of receiving this service from VHF and I understand that it will cost from £3 to £5 extra for a new set—

Mr. A. Barry

Does the Minister mean it would cost £3 to £5 for adjustment?

Mr. Hilliard

The Deputy is interrupting me too soon. We have had consultations with the manufacturers and the officials of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and the manufacturers are not inclined to provide adapters for the sets that are at present in use. I do not know what the ultimate outcome of the consultations will be. I have no power to compel them to provide the extra equipment that is needed for the set. Nevertheless, I have come to the conclusion that VHF is the answer to the problem and that we shall have to go ahead with it. Of course, the owners of sets that are at present in use will continue to get reception from sound radio wherever that reception is possible but in areas where it is not possible at the moment, where the reception is poor or bad, I am afraid that unless the manufacturers come over and provide the necessary extra equipment, these people will have to purchase new sets.

Mr. A. Barry

That will be £25.

Mr. Hilliard

I know, but the decision to provide the VHF service could not be withheld. This problem is of long standing and I felt I should take this decision. At the time I took the decision I did not know that the manufacturers might not be too anxious to provide this necessary extra equipment. I hope they will meet the situation and that they will provide the extra equipment. It might be we could import that equipment. I do not know.

Mr. Dillon

Is the Minister in a position to say if VHF is receivable on transistor radio?

Mr. Hilliard

Not all. A number of statements on television were made here and they mostly concerned the day to day programmes of the television service. I have indicated to the House on many occasions what exactly was the business of the Broadcasting Authority and I feel sure the majority of Deputies are satisfied with the conduct of affairs by the Broadcasting Authority and the Director General, Mr. Kevin McCourt. I should like to pay my tribute to the work the Broadcasting Authority are doing and to compliment them on the service they are giving generally. They realise their job is to improve the broadcasting service as far as they can within the limits their income imposes upon them. If they continue to improve the television service and the sound broadcasting service as they have been doing since they were established, we cannot expect much more of them. Television is a difficult, intricate business. It is hard to please everybody. The Authority must rely on imported programmes. However, because of the admirable way in which they have met their obligations and have dealt with any suggestions put to them by members of this House and by people outside, I feel certain they will create a fund of goodwill for themselves among the public and that in time they will give excellent value to the public for the cost.

Deputy Sweetman complimented the Department on the production of the new format of the accounts. I am grateful to the Deputy for his remarks on this matter. He complained, however, that the latest available ones were those for 1961-62 and drew an analogy with commercial concerns. The Department of Posts and Telegraphs, as far as these accounts are concerned, is primarily a Government Department and its definitive accounting statements are not the commercial accounts but the appropriation accounts.

All internal accounting is related to the Appropriation Account. Only when that Account has been completed and audited can the figures in it be reanalysed and classified on a commercial account basis. Other Departments who supply us with important figures for the commercial accounts have also to complete their accounting processes before they can do so. When it comes to the preparation and printing of the accounts, we are up against difficulties of a kind the Deputy is aware of. During his period as Minister for Finance he was responsible for the publication of the accounts and there were usually delays of eight to ten months between the completion of the accounts in my Department and their publication by his. I do hope, however, to speed up the production of the commercial accounts.

But I think that I should point out that, to facilitate Deputies, I introduced in the 1961-62 Estimate an appendix giving a summary of the latest commercial account results. If Deputies turn to page 245 of the present volume, they will find in Appendix D such a summary of the results, including those for 1962-63—the latest year for which accounts are available. Perhaps I might also remind Deputy Sweetman that, in reply to a question of his on 9th April last, I gave him not only a summary of the results for 1962-63 but also an estimate of those for 1963-64.

The Deputy also raised some questions of detail about the accounts, I think that if he looks at the Notes on page 14 of the accounts volume, he will find the answers there.

Some Deputies seem to think that our postal rates, and the new postal rates after the increases are introduced, will not bear any comparison with British rates. That is not so. When the proposed new rates come into operation many of our charges will still remain below the corresponding British levels. Our telephone exchange line rentals will be £12 a year, residence rate, and £14 a year, business rate, as compared with £14 and £16 a year respectively in Britain. Our day-rates for long distance trunk calls i.e., for those over 75 miles, will be 3s. 0d. as compared with 3s. 6d. to 4s. 0d. for similar calls within the British service.

On the postal side our minimum registration fee will be 1s. 0d. compared with the British rate of 1s. 9d. and our maximum insurance fee will be 1s. 3d. compared with the British fee of 1s. 11d. Our main telegraph rates will be brought up to the British levels although the size and distribution of our population is such that on a comparative basis higher rates could be justified.

Deputy Crotty felt that the proposed increases in parcel post rates were particularly outrageous but here again our revised rates will still be more favourable than British rates; our new scale of parcel charges will run to a maximum of 6s. for a 22 lb. parcel as against 6s. 6d. in Britain. I would also like to point out that the Post Office enjoys no monopoly in the carriage of parcels. Senders are free to avail of the services of other carriers or make their own arrangements for carriage and delivery.

If they decide to do so, they will, I feel sure, find that the Post Office charges in question, which cover transport from the nearest Post Office to the most isolated part of Ireland or Great Britain are not unreasonable after all. The Post Office is only seeking to recover its costs and to do so directly from the persons who use and benefit from the service. The alternative is to pass those costs on to the general taxpayer.

Mr. Dillon

What are the comparative letter post rates here and in Great Britain? It is 5d here; what is it in Great Britain now?

Mr. Hilliard

It is 3d.

Mr. Dillon

That is a substantial difference.

Mr. Hilliard

It is from 3d. to 5d.

The question of what the Post Office has done to increase its efficiency and reduce its costs has been raised. As I said in introducing the Estimate my Department is highly cost conscious and there has been a constant striving for improvements, modernisation and economies. Through its membership of the Universal Postal Union and the International Telecommunications Union the Department keeps in close touch with improvements and developments in the postal and telecommunication services and also as required it avails itself of the specialist services provided by these organisations. In 1958 for instance we had the services of a United Nations expert to help plan the subscriber trunk dialling network and some of our Engineers went abroad under UN Fellowships to study certain aspects of telecommunications. Incidentally the Department holds a high reputation internationally and in recent years several of its officers have been selected to assist developing countries under schemes sponsored by the United Nations.

On the telecommunications side, the outstanding examples of the Department's drive for efficiency and economy are the telephone automisation programme incorporating subscriber trunk dialling, the modernisation of the Telegraph service and the introduction of the new service Telex. Even with the increases in charges recently announced the percentage increases in telephone charges since the war are lower than in those of most other commodities and services. The modernisation of the telegraph service and the introduction of Telex service have reduced substantially the losses incurred in the operation of the telegraph service.

Mr. Dillon

Yet the telegraph has gone up to 5/-.

Mr. Hilliard

I know it has. On the postal side, sorting fittings have been modernised, mail circulation arrangements revised and mechanical aids installed wherever their use was warranted. The new sorting office being built in Dublin will incorporate the most up-to-date mechanical aids for sorting and mail handling. The entire rural services have been reorganised since the end of the war and six day delivery was introduced on a country-wide basis at no extra cost where previously delivery had been restricted in many cases to 3, 4 or 5 days weekly.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Is it the Minister's intention to abolish the auxiliary postmen?

Mr. Hilliard

That is not my intention. When this matter is fully examined, and it will be examined in a short time, I do not know what proposals will be made. It will be a matter for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

No immediate decision will be taken?

Mr. Hilliard

No. We are introducing motor transport in certain places. There are some small areas where the reorganisation I have mentioned has not been fully completed. There is another matter affecting the auxiliary postmen about which I might tell the House and Deputy O'Donnell. A competition was held last year for established postmen who will be assigned to established posts throughout the country. Some of these posts are filled by temporary or auxiliary postmen and this will mean that people temporarily employed will be replaced by established men. I would not wish that to be confused with the idea that we contemplate doing away with posts. There is no decision on that at all. I think a number of auxiliary postmen services are suitable for this country and suit the Post Office as well as the public.

The entire operations of the workman staff engaged in telephone construction and maintenance were examined and overhauled by a firm of industrial consultants in the period 1953 to 1955. The question of their further employment has been considered from time to time but the prospect of economies was not regarded as sufficiently encouraging to warrant doing so.

The Department will have no hesitation in employing industrial consultants at any time if it considers that the results will justify the expenditure involved. The Department has been a pioneer of Organisations and Methods in the Civil Service and it has a number of officers who have been trained specially for this work. Substantial economies have been achieved as a result of the activities of the Organisation and Methods staff. For example, automatic data processing was introduced into the Savings Bank in 1962, yielding considerable staff savings. It has recently been extended to telephone accounting which was previously overhauled and modernised some years ago, and it is intended to extend its use into other fields of activities where this can be done with advantage. In addition various accounting and other clerical procedures in the Post Office have been examined in detail over the years to ensure that wasteful practices are eliminated and that checks are reduced to the minimum consistent with the proper conduct of the work.

The outline I have given is necessarily very brief but I hope that it will serve to show that the Post Office has been alive to its responsibilities to increase efficiency and keep the costs of the services it provides at the lowest possible level. This is not to say that the organisation is perfect, that there is no scope for further improvements. There is undoubtedly scope for further improvements and I can assure the House that the Post Office will spare no effort to secure them.

Deputy Dillon seemed to think that he could absorb the increases that have fallen due to be paid this year and last year out of the surpluses that accrued in the Post Office over a number of years and he quoted years and the amounts of surplus since 1956-57. That is true but, of course, there is a hole in that bucket. In the commercial accounts, even on the page where surpluses are shown, the deficits are shown from 1952 to 1963 and, taking it all over the years, the deficits and the surpluses just about balance each other. There is a small surplus at the end of whatever number of years the Post Office has been working since the establishment of the State. There is no fund there which could absorb the shock of the £2½ million increase in any given year.

I want to say in conclusion, that the debate was a peculiar debate. I am regarded as a courteous person. I am regarded by some Deputies as a person who should not be here at all. Others say I am doing a reasonable job. I am not in the least affected by what people say about me. I never was. For some reason or other, I do not bother about praise or criticism. It does not affect me in the least. I just carry out my work in a cool, calm and collected manner. As long as I am giving to the country service to the best of my ability, I am quite satisfied. Any day the public are not satisfied with that, when the election comes along, they know what to do.

I pass over Deputy Sweetman's personal references to myself with the contempt they deserve. It is something that he recognises that I know more about the cattle trade than he does. I would hate, however, to be judged on what I know of the Post Office by what he pretends to know about it. I wish the Fine Gael Party would put their heads together and settle on some line of policy in relation to the Post Office.

Question, "That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration" put, and a division being demanded, it was postponed in accordance with the Order of the Dáil of 14th November, 1963, until 10.15 p.m. on Wednesday, 21st May, 1964.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.