Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 11 Jun 1964

Vol. 210 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 40—Agriculture.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £15,695,700 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st March, 1965, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain subsidies and sundry Grants-in-Aid.

The total net Estimate for 1964-65 shows a decrease of £388,300 on the original net Estimate for 1963-64, which amounted to £24,047,000. Including two Supplementary Estimate provisions for 1963-64 of £10 and £1,215,000, the final total Estimate for that year was, in fact, £25,262,010.

As compared with the original Estimate for 1963-64, the following subheads in particular show substantial increases: N. — Marketing, etc., of Dairy Produce; K.8—Lime and Fertilisers Subsidies; K.6 — Farm Buildings Scheme; K.14—Scheme of Grants for Calved Heifers (new item); K.13— Brucellosis Eradication Scheme (new item); I.6—An Foras Talúntais.

In addition to the Scheme of Grants for Calved Heifers (K.14) and the Brucellosis Scheme (K.13), the following subheads appear in the Estimate for the first time: K.15—Scheme of Grants for Forage Harvesting Equipment; C.6—Contribution to the Irish Meat Association.

The following subheads show substantial decreases as compared with the original Estimate for 1963-64; K.11 — Bovine Tuberculosis Eradication Scheme; K.17—Payments to Pigs and Bacon Commission; K.18—Losses on Disposal of Wheat.

Deputies have received a memorandum entitled Notes on the Main Activities of the Department giving detailed information on the operations of my Department and on various trade and economic matters with which it is concerned.

Gross agricultural output, including livestock changes, increased by almost £1 million in 1963, but net agricultural output declined by about the same amount, due largely to a lower yield of grain per acre.

The value of agricultural exports in 1963 reached the record figure of £119.4 million—nearly £14½ million greater than 1962.

As already announced, the Government decided earlier this year on a number of measures to increase farmers' incomes and keep them in reasonable relationship with the increasing incomes of other sections of the community. These measures, which include an increase of 2d. per gallon in the price of milk; an increase in guaranteed prices for pigs; further relief of rates on land amounting to £1.4 million; and a higher minimum price for feeding barley, will represent an increase of about £6 million in farmers' receipts over a period of twelve months. The price for sugar beet was also increased. All these measures, and the higher prices ruling for cattle, will represent a substantial improvement in the economic position of farmers. The cost to the Exchequer is considerable but is fully justified.

For some time past, my Department has been engaged in preparing, in co-operation with the Department of Finance, the sections dealing with agriculture in the detailed document on the Second Programme for Economic Expansion which is to be published very soon. In preparing the programme, we sought, and have taken account of, the views of the principal agricultural and rural organisations. We have had detailed and useful talks during the past few months with the National Farmers Association on the general position of, and the prospects for, agriculture; it has been arranged that such general reviews will take place annually. In preparing our future programme, we also took account of the reports of the survey teams on the agricultural industries and the Report by Dr. Knapp on agricultural co-operation in this country. The forthcoming publication on the programme will deal with all the important aspects of future agricultural policy, as well as with policy for other sectors of the economy. My Department is also preparing a separate publication which will spell out our agricultural development programme in much more detail. It is hoped to have both these documents ready for publication about the same time.

The Small Farm Committee's report on Pilot Area Development in the west of Ireland has recently been published. The report has been accepted in principle by the Government, and arrangements are being made for the selection and establishment of pilot areas in each of the twelve counties concerned. I would appeal to all voluntary rural organisations for their help in ensuring the success of this experiment.

During the past year, circumstances have developed favourably for the cattle industry and the export trade is buoyant. There has in fact for some time been a shortage of beef in Europe, due both to increased demand and to reduced supplies in certain European and overseas countries. Some of the factors which led to decreased supplies may be of a temporary nature, but the general market outlook remains good.

Exports of store cattle to Britain have increased very substantially, although partly at the expense of a decrease in fat cattle exports. Exports of carcase beef in 1963 and the early part of 1964 have been well maintained. With the increase in demand, cattle prices have, of course, substantially increased also.

Before the present European shortage of beef supplies made itself felt, and as a consequence of the heavy supplies marketed in the early part of 1963, the British authorities initiated discussions with the governments of the major supplying countries of beef, mutton and lamb to Britain, with a view to reaching a multilateral understanding for regulating supplies to the market in the interests of stability in the trade. The negotiations did not, however, lead to agreement, but, at the request of the British authorities, the various countries concerned, including this country, are participating in the work of a meat study group established to keep the market situation under review with reference to future estimated levels of production and supply.

Cattle numbers in this country, including breeding stock and cattle in the younger age groups, have been increasing in recent years, and this, together with the steps being taken under the Second Programme for Economic Expansion for substantially increasing our cattle numbers still further, should enable us to look forward with confidence to maintaining high levels of exports and benefiting considerably from the expected continued expansion in the demand for beef. In particular, the Calved Heifer Subsidy Scheme and the increased price for milk should be powerful influences in raising our cattle output.

The total of inseminations from the cattle breeding stations increased from about 600,000 to 700,000, that is, more than 50 per cent of the cow population, from 1962 to 1963. The main trend is towards Friesian and beef breed inseminations. The progeny testing and performance testing of bulls is being developed as rapidly as possible. Trials have begun with the progeny of the Charolais cattle imported last year from the United States. Towards the end of this year, we hope to import some Charolais cattle from France and Friesians from Holland through the Spike Island Quarantine Station.

Our production of sheep and lambs is likewise expanding and we expect this trend to continue. Here again we hope for a substantial expansion in production and exports under the Second Programme for Economic Expansion.

The provision of £6,111,000 for the support of the creamery milk price and subsidisation of exports of dairy products was based on an estimated milk supply of 350 million gallons and continuance of the creamery milk price allowance at last year's level of 2d per gallon. The allowance has now been increased to 4d per gallon as from 1st May, 1964, and this will involve a Supplementary Estimate of about £2.6 million for the current year. On this basis, the income to farmers from milk supplied to creameries should be close to £33 million compared with an estimated £29 million in 1963, £23.15 million in 1960, £18.26 million in 1955, and £14 million in 1950. These increases in farmers' income from milk are very significant and are an encouragement towards increased milk production. For each of the past three years, the figure of milk intake at creameries has been a record. The estimate of 350 million gallons for the current year represents an increase of 13 million gallons over the last year's figure, but more recent trends indicate that the current year's milk intake could be even greater still. Nevertheless, we hope to be able to dispose of all the surplus milk available this year on the export market in one form or another. Despite some recent improvement in world markets for dairy products, it must be borne in mind that export subsidies—some of them substantial—are still required for practically all dairy products, and it would be idle to pretend that selling such products in export markets in the next few years is going to be easy or inexpensive to the Exchequer. The spread of the creamery system in the west and the midlands is continuing. I have encouraged this development in consultation with the IAOS, and I believe that it will confer great benefits on the small farmers in these areas.

Looking ahead to 1970, if the targets being set in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion are to be achieved—and there is no reason why they should not be achieved — there should be a big expansion in milk production. Plans are being devised to deal with the extra milk, and it is fully realised that it is most important to ensure that the development proceeds on the basis of sound and well-thoughtout national policy and that the whole position must be kept under continuous review. It is essential that there should be a sound and coordinated policy in regard to the organisation, distribution and use of creamery milk supplies and that undesirable competition for milk between cooperative creameries should be avoided.

On the marketing side, up to recently the only product exported by An Bord Bainne was creamery butter, although the Board, of course, has powers to subsidise the export of other dairy products. As from 1st March last, I assigned to the Board export marketing functions in relation to all other dairy products, and through the system of export licensing I am ensuring that the Board is the sole exporter of these products, with certain exceptions. These exceptions are the export of chocolate crumb to Britain and Northern Ireland, the export of milk powder intended for the manufacture of baby food and certain exports of cheese and milk powder by the manufacturers to their own sales organisations abroad. The assignment of these additional functions to the Board will enable it to improve export marketing and, in a fuller sense than heretofore, guide production of dairy products into the most desirable channels.

With the object of promoting increased consumption of milk and dairy products in this country, I have arranged for the establishment of a National Dairy Publicity Council. The Council comprises representatives of the Dublin District Milk Board, the Cork District Milk Board, An Bord Bainne and the Department of Agriculture. The Council intends to concentrate at the outset on publicity to increase the domestic consumption of cheese which at present is low. Fifty per cent of the Council's expenditure will be met by the Exchequer and for this purpose provision has been made in the Estimate for £15,000 for 1964-65.

Judging by the rate of applications for grants under the heifer subsidy scheme, payments for this year may relate to as many as 75,000 animals, representing a total expenditure for the year of £1,125,000. A Supplementary Estimate to cover the increased expenditure will be necessary in due course. The consumption of fertilisers continues to grow. The use of all kinds of fertilisers has risen sharply since 1957-58—nitrogen and phosphates by 80 per cent and potash by 70 per cent. The demand for ground limestone continues at a satisfactory level. Total deliveries during the year 1963-64 are expected to be about 1,100,000 tons, compared with just over 1,000,000 tons in the previous year. The full cost of transport of lime from the production plant to the farmer's premises is met from subsidy.

During the past year, the bacon export market was firmer than it had been in the preceding year or two and with better prices, the cost of export support fell. Production of pigs in many European countries was considerably reduced last year following the very severe weather conditions in the early part of 1963, but pig numbers appear to be building up again in most European countries and there is every prospect of heavy supplies being marketed in the latter part of this year. Despite the recent shortage and high prices of beef in Britain and the Continent, as well as the limitation on supplies of bacon to Britain under the multilateral understanding reached last November, prices of bacon on the British market have already begun to ease appreciably.

With a view to maintaining this country's place in the bacon export market and also developing the pork export market which has been expanding in the past three or four years, it is necessary for us to increase pig production further on a sound basis. The improved prices for Grade A Special and Grade A pigs which were introduced on 1st June should encourage producers to expand their production with confidence. Centralised export marketing of bacon by the Pigs and Bacon Commission came into operation in April, 1964, and will, it is hoped, lead to greater uniformity in export standards and regularity of supply.

In the interests of fulfilling our allocation under the multilateral bacon understanding for the British market during the current year, and in view of the existing buoyancy of the home bacon market, the Commission is finding it necessary at present to curtail pork exports, and I have agreed that this is desirable until pig production increases later in the year. Unless we fulfil the British bacon allocation in an orderly way throughout the year, our future share of the market could be prejudiced, and, with every prospect of a steady increase in our pig production, such a danger must be avoided.

While considerable advances have been made in raising the quality of our pigs, there is still scope for improvement. The question in future is not so much one of raising the actual grading standards for bacon pigs as ensuring that producers will get more and more of their pigs into the top grades. On the breeding side, a lot of work is being done to give producers the best raw material on which to work. The second pig progeny testing station, at Thorndale, Dublin, has been in operation for some time now and, with the Cork station, there is already penning accommodation for a total of 400 pigs. Plans to double the capacity of the Cork station and to establish a third station at Ballyhaise are well advanced, and when the programme is completed there will be penning accomodation for a total of over 800 pigs, which is regarded as sufficient to give an adequate testing service for all requirements.

Special provision has also been made at the Thorndale progeny testing station for the performance testing of boars. Performance testing enables a large number of boars to be evaluated in a relatively short time, and it can thus be used as a preliminary screening, with the better boars being later progeny tested. The Accredited Pig Herds Scheme now includes all the main pedigree herds in the country. During the past year, 33 new herds became accredited, bringing the total number to 74 (43 Landrace and 31 Large White), which was a satisfactory position from the point of view of the availability of first-class breeding stock. The selection of boars under the Premium Boar Scheme is now in fact confined to accredited herds, and so also is the selection of gilts by the Pigs and Bacon Commission under their Sow Distribution Scheme.

There is, unfortunately, no sign of any distinct improvement in the conditions which for many years now have made it difficult to develop the eggs and poultry industries. The census returns for June, 1963, showed, for the first time for many years, a slight increase in poultry numbers under the heading "ordinary fowl". This may be taken as reflecting the development of broiler production in recent years. The output of broilers in 1963 was some 4½ million birds, i.e. approximately treble the output in 1960. All this production was sold on the home market, as the price level on the export market is unattractive. In fact, the Poultry Production Council, which reported on broiler production in February, 1962, concluded that exports could hardly be developed unless production were on a massive scale on a fully integrated basis.

Our turkey industry has also been encountering great difficulty as a result of the enormous expansion in production in Britain in recent years, organised to a very great extent in large-scale units with direct access to retail outlets. Some people, nevertheless, try to maintain that, despite this competition, it would be a relatively simple matter to restore our turkey export trade to the level of the early 1950s when we had no competition from mass production by British producers and could sell all our supplies to a central organisation in Britain at fixed prices. Indeed, I noticed that census figures show that there has been a bigger percentage drop in turkey numbers in the Six Counties between 1956 and 1963 than there has been here.

With a view to the establishment of nucleus breeding flocks of high-class poultry stock so as to be abreast of the best quality standards, special extra facilities are at present being afforded to a number of commercial interests for the importation through quarantine of poultry breeding stock, including turkeys, from the United States.

Coming to cereals, it seems unlikely that there will be any marked change in 1964 in the total area under wheat, barley and oats. The quality of wheat harvested in 1963 was quite good. Over 90 per cent of the crop was purchased from growers at millable wheat prices. The average yield per acre was, however, somewhat lower than in previous years. The prices for the 1964 crop—I refer to millable wheat— are basically the same as those for 1963. The acreage sown to wheat this year may be slightly less than last year, but, with an increased yield, the outcome may be substantially the same as last year.

The 1963 feeding barley acreage was the largest on record at 308,000 acres. As in the case of wheat, however, the average yield per acre was somewhat less than in previous years, with the result that the quantity marketed was about the same as in 1962. For the current year, the floor price has been increased from 38s. to 40s. per barrel, £20 a ton. The area sown to the crop this year may be slightly greater than last year. It is reasonable to assume that the yield per acre will be up to the level of the years prior to 1963 and, therefore, production in 1964 will probably show an increase over the 1963 level.

The guarantee to provide a market for feeding barley of the 1963 crop was implemented through An Bord Gráin. Since the beginning of the cereal year 1963-64, the grant of licences for the importation of coarse grains has been determined in consultation with the Board. To supplement maize imports, licences have also been granted for the importation of maize/milo and feed wheat. In fact, An Bord Gráin has now been authorised to arrange for the import and sale of these coarse grains, with due regard to the necessity for ensuring a market for all available supplies of home-grown feeding barley. These arrangements serve the two-fold purpose of securing a market for our home-produced grain, and keeping the cost of all grain to the feeders at the lowest possible level.

Land reclamation and improvement works are proceeding at an active pace under the Land Project. During the past year, 90,000 acres were reclaimed or improved by farmers with the aid of grants amounting to £1.6 million provided under the Project. Applications for grants, which numbered 22,800, were up by about 2,300 on the previous year's figure. The improved position regarding the backlog of uninvestigated applications to which I referred on previous occasions has, on the whole, been well maintained, and special efforts continue to be directed towards minimising the waiting period between the date on which a farmer makes his application and the date on which he gets approval for a scheme.

There has been an encouraging response to the scheme of grant-aid introduced in September, 1961, for the fencing of mountain grazings and lands in mountain areas used in connection with mountain grazings. Up to the end of March, 1964, a total of 1,265 schemes were approved for the enclosure of 53,000 acres.

Under the Fertilisers Credit Scheme operated in conjunction with the Land Project, 25,000 acres were treated with lime and fertilisers on 740 holdings in the year 1963-64. While interest in the scheme has shown some increase during the past year or two, I feel that it could profitably be used by farmers much more extensively than it has been. To encourage greater use of the scheme, especially amongst smaller farmers, I intend to have certain revisions made in the conditions at present applying to the scheme, and I hope to see it availed of on an increasing scale in the coming years.

Since the introduction of the present Farm Building Scheme, over £9 million has been paid to farmers in grants. This represents a total capital investment of about £40 million. At the beginning of this year, the various grants available under the Scheme were reviewed in the light of the production objectives set out in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion, and it was decided, as already announced, to increase the grants for cow and cattle housing and for silos and haybarns, and to provide special improved grants for milking parlours and dairies. The new grants came into effect on 10th February. Demand for the Scheme, which already was at a very high level and growing, is expected to expand at a much faster rate in response to these increased grants, and the sum of £1.5 million provided in the Estimate to meet grant expenditure this year is the highest ever.

Important developments under the Water Supplies Scheme, as already announced, were the unification, in July, 1963, under the administration of the Department of Local Government of the various schemes of private domestic water supplies grants, and the increase in December, 1963, from 50 per cent to 66? per cent of cost in the grants provided by my Department towards the provision of piped water supplies to farmyards and farms. My Department is dealing with the applications for grants for domestic water supplies which were on hands at the date of the change, and the sum of £340,000 provided under Subhead K6 is intended to meet the cost of these grants as well as the cost of the increased grants for farmyard and farm installations.

Gross expenditure on the Bovine Tuberculosis Eradication scheme to the end of March, 1964, amounted to £43,500,000, of which £32,900,000 was paid to herd-owners in respect of compensation for reactors. Net expenditure, taking into account receipts from sale of reactors, was £28,200,000. Very satisfactory progress continues to be made towards the attestation of the six southern counties. Because of the relatively high incidence of the disease in this area, four rounds of compulsory herd tests—as against three elsewhere—are considered necessary for attestation. The second round of compulsory tests was completed in Kilkenny, Tipperary and Waterford in April, 1964, and is nearing completion in the remaining three counties. It is expected that the three counties named will be attested by May, 1965, and the remaining three counties by the end of 1965. The whole country will then be attested.

Brucellosis in cattle is widely distributed in this country, with the heaviest incidence in dairying areas, and, while vaccination with Strain 19 vaccine has controlled the incidence somewhat, the disease is still a source of serious economic loss. It is also likely to be a hindrance, in future, to our exports of live cattle and beef. In addition, brucellosis constitutes a human health risk. The eradication has been undertaken in most countries on the Continent, and the task has been completed, or nearly so, in a number of these countries. Control measures have been initiated in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The eradication of this disease is one of the Department's main proposals in the field of animal health in relation to the Second Programme for Economic Expansion.

A nation-wide survey by means of the milk ring test is being undertaken in all 26 counties this year in order to determine the incidence of brucellosis in the different parts of the country. Testing will be carried out at practically all creamery premises and milk depots. All of these premises will be visited and milk samples taken from each supplier's churns. It is hoped to finish two complete rounds of milk sampling during 1964. The necessary facilities are being provided at a number of centres for the testing of milk samples.

As a result of this survey, we will have the information we need as to the incidence of the disease in each county. This will enable a decision to be taken as to the nature of the eradication measures to be applied in each area. Where the incidence is found to be low, a policy of bloodtesting of herds and removal of reactors, with movement controls similar to those imposed under the BTE Scheme, would be indicated. In other areas, these measures would be preceded by a four- or five-year programme of heifer calf vaccination. New legislation would be necessary before eradication measures could be applied on a compulsory basis in any area. It is expected that such legislation will be introduced in the Dáil later this year.

Following the successful trials by the Department's Veterinary Research Laboratory with the new warble fly dressings, an intensive publicity campaign aimed at the early eradication of this pest was carried out last October and November. The response to the campaign was very satisfactory and indicated that, with the full co-operation of stock owners, farming organisations and other interested bodies, the warble fly could be completely eliminated in a few seasons by the use of these new dressings. Arrangements are being made for consultations with farming organisations, county committees of agriculture, etc., with a view to the carrying out of an even more intensive campaign in 1964.

There are, unfortunately, still some cases of sheep scab in this country, and it is essential that every vestige of this disease be wiped out. An intensive eradication campaign is being undertaken this year to ensure as far as possible the dipping of all sheep within the prescribed dipping period. As a necessary preliminary to this campaign, a survey of all existing sheep dipping facilities was commenced last year. Results to hand indicate the necessity for repairs to many baths, both public and private, and, in some cases, for the erection of new baths. When the survey has been completed, a scheme for the subsidisation of the erection of new baths by local authorities in areas where additional facilities are needed will be introduced.

Well over half of the sales off Irish farms must go to export markets. The scope for increased consumption at home is quite limited, and our plans for increasing production must, therefore, be geared to export. The present world market position in regard to beef suggests that we have made no mistake in making increased cattle production the kernel of our expanded output programme.

For several other products, the future will depend largely on developments in external markets. Our objectives have been set in the expectation that there will be a considerable improvement in the organisation of international markets during the remainder of this decade. At the present time there is a great deal of discussion internationally about organisation of markets. For instance, consideration is being given to the possibility of working out international stabilisation arrangements for the principal temperate agricultural commodities, that is, cereals, meat and dairy products. These studies are based on the principle of negotiating reasonable access to markets for exporting countries, a principle which, however, is being interpreted in most quarters as the sharing of markets on the basis of the present level of supplies, The British authorities have already embarked on such a policy in the case of butter, bacon and cereals. The United States has taken similar measures with regard to beef imports from Australia, New Zealand and Ireland.

In so far as these arrangements serve to maintain prices, we welcome them. However, they could also have disadvantages if they tended to freeze the existing pattern of production and trade and unduly to shelter high cost producers in importing countries. In my opinion, free trade in industrial products should be matched by fair trade in agricultural products. In our view, the fundamental feature of international commodity arrangements should be the bringing together of the level of farm support prices in exporting and importing countries and the harmonisation of agricultural policies. This seems particularly applicable between countries such as Britain and Ireland in which conditions of production are comparable and whose economies are so closely linked.

I move:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

The Deputy gave no notice of this.

There was no evidence this morning that the Minister introduced this most important Estimate with any degree of verve or enthusiasm. Indeed certain parts of the speech, which he circulated, were really an expansion of the notes on the activities of his Department which he also circulated. He indicated the work that is going on in the various sections and gave us some idea of what happened internationally in the agricultural field during the year and of the way trends were moving. However, as an important exposition of how agriculture will be made fit into the expansion that is necessary and how he will see to it that those who engage in agriculture will get a fair return, his speech was of very little value.

That is not surprising when it is considered that in 1963 the net output of agriculture dropped by £1.1 million at a time when the costs of production were raised very considerably, at a time when the definition of net output in the volume Economic Statistics, published prior to the Budget of 1964, includes only the gross output less input of feeding stuffs, fertilisers and seeds, and does not take account of all the other charges against production which the farmer had to bear and which increased during 1963 to such an extraordinary extent, an extent, as we all know, necessitating the ninth round of wage and salary increases for persons in other occupations.

It is not surprising that the Minister was not very enthusiastic when one also notes from the same volume that since 1959-60, 38,000 people have left the land, and when it is remembered that the Government, in their Blue Book, have stated that by 1970, 66,000 people will have left the land. All the increase in agricultural production available to us as far as they are concerned is something of the order of 2.7 per cent. It is quite understandable that the Minister was not very enthusiastic, that he read us a long list of activities of his Department without touching on real, basic agricultural policy at all.

I think the kernel of the Government's failure to understand the importance of agriculture is contained in one sentence in the Minister's speech when he says:

The scope for increasing consumption at home is quite limited and our plans for increasing production must therefore be geared to export.

We, on this side of the House, agree that plans must be geared to export, but, as to the first part of the sentence, we fundamentally disagree with the Government and we say to them that both on and off the land of Ireland, the employment of our people depends on the expansion of agricultural production which the Minister's Party do not foresee.

The Minister's Party by their own publication on economic expansion define it as just not there. If we are to realise the extent to which the industrial workers' jobs depend on agricultural exports, we have only to consult trade figures just announced. I quote from the Irish Times of Tuesday, June 9th, 1964:

Of the total increase of £18.3 million in imports for the first quarter of 1964, as compared with the first quarter of 1963, £13.6 million—almost 75 per cent—was in respect of materials for further production almost all non-agricultural.

In the same report, reference was made to exports and I quote again:

Increased exports of live animals, food and food preparations account for £8.4 million of the increase of £12.7 million in total exports between the two periods.

Then let us accept that if we are to import raw materials for industry as we are largely doing, the employment of these industrial workers, the avoidance of credit squeezes and balance of payments difficulties entirely depend on our agricultural exports.

The Government in 1958 declared their target in relation to our main agricultural export, live animals and meat, and at page 15 of the Programme for Economic Expansion laid by the Government before each House of teh Oireachtas in November, 1958, they said:

The objective of policy will be to increase cow numbers progressively to at least 1,500,000 by 1964.

In the Irish Statistical Bulletin published in March, 1964, the livestock enumeration for January, 1964, is given and the total cow number at that time was 1,290,100. There have been some increases, it is true, but the fact is that the Government by their own definition have failed to reach the level of cow numbers they regard as essential. That has been proved conclusively if one regards the figures as the bulwark of defence of the jobs not only on the farms but of our industrial workers.

The Minister, reading his list of activities, does not advert to this and does not tell us how it is to be done. He does not say what he is going to do to try to ensure that this expansion comes about. Since the 1963 Estimate was debated in November of that year —not so very long ago—there have been quite a few publications on our agricultural problems, the most important being the NFA document popularly known as the Green Book. I think this was the first time anybody put together the sort of figures that will confront us if we are to get this agricultural expansion. I think the first thing we must accept is that there is an opportunity to feed far more cattle on our lands, to produce far more milk, far more cereals, while at the same time by good farming methods, increasing the numbers of cattle actually held on the same holdings.

This Green Book produced figures for the sort of money required— frightening figures. The Taoiseach said we would need to have a goldmine in the middle of the Bog of Allen but yet these figures were never contested either by him or anybody else. If we are to get this agricultural expansion upon which everybody depends, we must seek some way of getting the investment needed and not only that, but at the same time getting it properly applied. That is necessary if we are to succeed.

In that debate of 1963 I mentioned in a very minor way some of the problems that existed, problems dealt with in far greater detail later by the authors of the Green Book. I said:

To produce or buy that extra number——

500,000—

——at £50 per head, gives a figure of £25 million. If we are to have a population of 2 million pigs—and that should be our target—we must produce an extra million pigs which, at an average price of £8 each, would require £8 million. If we are to house the extra 500,000 cows I believe it will cost £20 each if we are to provide proper housing for them, with all the necessary facilities for the production of clean milk. That would mean an extra expenditure of £10 million. If we are to house the extra pigs, even if we do it by Jordan pighouses, when we have availed of all grants, it will cost another £4 million. If we are to carry these extra cows, we will have to improve our grasslands.

I went on to produce figures of expenditure, perhaps of £3 per acre on about nine million acres of grasslands, which is not a huge amount. I reached a figure for these things, pigs and cow numbers and improvement of grasslands of something of the order of £85 million. The farmers will have to produce quite a lot of this but the introduction of moneys by the Government will also have to produce a very large measure of this money. The banks have improved but not to a great extent. The Agricultural Credit Corporation is in the course of a great expansion programme which I think is bearing fruit and which will bear much greater fruit in the very near future and in years to come. The Minister has his grants, everything that is in his Estimate that could be defined I suppose as below-the-line expenditure, grants for special purposes and grants for all ordinary purposes.

I believe it is now necessary if we are to accept the targets outlined and the costs of achieving them outlined in the NFA document—we on this side of the House do accept them—and if we are to accept, as is so obvious, that the future of the country depends on success in this sphere, that we should see how we can get the money. I believe the time has now arrived when a vast expansion of the advisory services, coupled with an expansion of credit, must be undertaken. The Minister has indicated that there will be an expansion of services in the western areas to help the small farmers there. That is good but I believe we need to expand advisory services in every county. If we are to get a specific plan fulfilled on each holding so that each holding will produce its share of what this country needs, then we must monitor it through agricultural advisers.

A development in my county which I regard as of the utmost importance is the fact that now, when a farmer seeks a loan from the Agricultural Credit Corporation, or other financial institutions, the agricultural advisers are called in. The Agricultural Credit Corporation ask them for a detailed plan of production. With this development, we shall, I believe, need many more advisers. Only two days back, on the Agriculture (Amendment) Bill, the Minister indicated he was rather happy, outside of the small western areas, about the number of agricultural advisers.

We shall have to do certain things if we are to do the job properly. We shall have to provide money from other sources. The sources indicated are the banks, the Agricultural Credit Corporation, grants from the Government, and there are two sources the Minister did not mention, first, the co-operative system whereby farmers help themselves and secondly, the money market. This has been done by the Agricultural Credit Corporation in some small degree. People can now invest in farm credit bonds at 4½ per cent, with easy withdrawal if they want their money. This will have to be expanded to the point at which farmers, through the Government or through an agency created by the Government, can go into the money market and get there the money to enlarge their holdings and to create the production that will keep everyone working in this country as against certain people having to seek work abroad.

I believe this must be developed and the policy must be inter-related with the advisory services and each particular increase in production on farms must be monitored in this way. That does not mean that the farmer cannot, if he likes, tell the adviser to get off his farm and leave him to do his own work. That right must be preserved to everybody in whatever walk of life. It seems to me that if the necessary capital injection is to be given the job is so large that the danger and the consequent results of failure could have such far-reaching effects that we just cannot afford to fail. Getting the advisory officers down to specific jobs on detailed plans for farmers expanding their production is the key, but it was not mentioned by the Minister in his speech.

The Minister did mention the rationalisation of the butter market that is taking place in Europe. Let us face it. This has helped us. In the first year we had a bad quota. That was largely our own fault inasmuch as we had a humdrum marketing system. When we had a dry year we had no stocks at all which meant there was no continuity of supply. In the three years on which the quota to Britain was worked out, we had one very dry year in which we exported practically no butter. This resulted in a bad quota. Happily, other suppliers did not supply and, month by month, last year we got an increase in the quota which meant we sold more butter at the British import price, which is the best price prevailing. This year the same pattern is evolving.

If it is true, and it appears to be, that cow numbers in Europe are falling, possibly as a result of lack of labour, and if we are going to move 66,000 people off the land by 1970 and have the best grass in Europe, then is it not equally true that anybody who says a subsidy on butter at this stage is just money into the farmers' pockets is quite incorrect? Is it not true that we can look forward to this butter market in three, four, or five years' time as something which, if properly rationalised, will bear no subsidy at all? Is it not our job now to do everything we can to get the foothold that is so important in these markets?

The manager of An Bord Bainne has indicated that part of his trouble in relation to the propagation of Kerrygold butter, on which we are getting a premium, is the fact that he has not got sufficient continuity of supply to make the butter available over a wider area in Britain? The Government have failed in their stated policy of producing 1,500,000 cows by 1964. These are the things that are important. The fact that we are getting an increased quota each month into Britain will result, as I said on the Budget, in the amount being voted for butter subsidy this year not being spent. I believe the Government will not spend £9 millions on subsidising butter and milk products. I have said that twice now and all we can do is wait and see. Let us wait and see whether or not I am right.

We are entering a period, I believe, in which it is highly important that we should attempt in every way to expand our butter and milk production because not only will that give us the exports of cattle, which will enable us to maintain equilibrium in payments on international markets, but it will also keep our industrial workers in employment. I believe that in a few years the butter market of Europe will be just right and there will be no need for subsidy. The subsidy today, therefore, should be regarded more as a capital investment than a continuing charge.

What have the Government done on this question of an increase in cattle numbers? Three years back, we suggested on this side of the House that there should be a calf or heifermating subsidy. That will be found in the debate on the Estimate for Agriculture as far back as three years ago. The scheme the Minister has brought in suits certain people. It has not got the universal acceptance and participation that would result in a far bigger improvement in cattle numbers.

Dealing with cattle exports in the first quarter of this year, the Irish Times on 9th June had this comment to make:

The number of cattle exported rose by 93,000 to 265,000 mainly due to an increase of 64,000 and 22,900 in store bullocks and heifers respectively.

Notwithstanding the fact that the Minister says he will spend £1 million this year on his scheme, and he is satisfied with it, we exported 22,900 more heifers in the first quarter of this year than we did in the previous year when this scheme was not in operation at all.

That is not what the Irish Times says. It is bullocks and heifers.

The number of cattle exported rose by 93,000 to 265,000, mainly due to an increase of 64,000 and 22,900 in store bullocks and heifers respectively.

Surely there is no significance in that. If the Deputy knew what he was talking about, he would realise that there is no significance at all in these figures.

Maybe I am rubbing the Minister and Deputy Gibbons the wrong way.

Indeed the Deputy is not, but he is making a tomfool of himself with his arguments.

On your side of the House, that should suit you excellently. If I am, you should leave me to it.

If a heifer is finished at the end of a year and a scheme is announced at that time, does the Deputy think the owner will mate her then? It is a wonder the Deputy would not have a bit of sense.

The Minister is in bad form this morning. We will try to get him out of it.

I can put up with a great deal but not with this nonsense.

I do not believe the increase of 22,900 in the number of store heifers exported in the first quarter is, in fact, entirely an export of fat heifers or almost fat heifers, which is what the Minister suggests. I do not believe that is so. I believe that very many heifers, not only in the 22,900 but in the figure of exports last year, were heifers that could have been mated. Let us face it. This scheme is only in respect of an increase in herd numbers and the small farmer of four, five or six cows cannot increase his herd by more than one.

One would think the Deputy never heard that before.

The Minister comes from an area of small farmers and knows quite well that the small farmer is highly restricted. If you want to get your heifers mated, the way to do it is as was suggested from this side of the House as far back as three years ago, that is, to give a heifer mating subsidy, which will mean that all heifers suitable for mating, that will not lose the amount of the subsidy by being unsuitable first calvers, or for any other reason, will be mated. That is how to do it, not the way the Minister does it. The small farmer cannot do what the Minister suggests. The man who has been doing his job right up to now cannot do it. The man who on his holding, whatever size it was, was carrying the optimum of milch cows— and the man who is in a dairying area and has market for milk should be doing that—could not get £15 out of the scheme because he was doing as well as he could before the scheme was introduced. At the same time, the man who was feeding dry stock and had a named herd in the local bovine TB office could, if he wanted to, buy 50 heifers or 100 heifers, if he had the land to stock them, instead of dry stock, mate them and collect from the Minister a vast sum—15 times 100 or 15 times 50, if he could feed that number of heifers instead of an equal number of bullocks.

That is the flaw in the Minister's scheme and that is why there was an increase of 22,900 in the number of store heifers exported in the first quarter of this year. If the Minister does not like that, he can lump it, but it is true.

I should like now to deal with the question of cereals. The Minister rather amused me when he read out, at page 14 of his speech, the situation in relation to the import of coarse grains because he got plenty of abuse in this House over the past number of years about how the job was done and he stoutly defended it and, having changed it, he is very much in favour of the change. I, personally, did not enter with great energy into any of the discussions here because I felt there were arguments on both sides.

I still feel that.

We agree. The job that it now being done by An Bord Gráin is a good job. That is just the way to look at that situation. There was a system there. There were obvious criticisms of the system. At the same time, the job that is being done now seems to me to be done well. There we are. On that score, we cannot do very much more than we are doing but I think it is true to say that in the good farming areas of this country, the basic thing is that it is possible not only to increase the tillage acreage but to carry the same number of stock or a larger number of stock on your holding if you are doing the job well.

Whether it was right or wrong, the Minister's Party were the Party who introduced it and I think at the moment they would be more inclined to think they might have been wrong. We on this side think it is right to grow wheat and a large volume of wheat under present conditions.

I thought you used to polish your boots with it.

I was born in 1923 and Deputy Gibbons was born about the same time. Therefore, I think the chuckles of Deputy Corry and the Minister should leave us unamused.

What about the speech made in 1947?

In 1947, I was playing football, so I am not very interested. These things are out of our sphere, are they not? However, there is one thing about the wheat crop that is largely forgotten. I have heard certain arguments over the past twelve months and, indeed, over the past six months, on the question of whether or not we should grow feeding barley and import wheat, whether or not, by a system of levies or in any other way, we could increase the price of feeding barley, grow a lot of it and eliminate the production of wheat. I do not hold with that view. I think it would be unwise because over the years there has been built up here a situation whereby a number of tons of wheat— the Minister's figure is that 265,000 tons are our requirement—are charged in to the cost of our flour and are a part of the structure by which the industrial worker gets his wage.

The price of wheat here is a price that gives the farmer a profit. I think it would be a disaster now—and there is evidence that it could happen—if the volume of wheat grown in this country were further decreased. Remember, in 1957, we grew 406,300 acres of wheat and we milled it all. In 1958, we got into trouble but we grew 418,900 acres. In 1963, we grew only 232,700 acres and the Minister says this morning, and told me in reply to a question a couple of weeks ago, that he thinks wheat this year will be about the same or a little down. We can use the produce of something in the order of, certainly, 350,000 acres and we can charge it in at a fair price and this is a market that is lost to the Irish farmer if it decreases any further.

The question as to where the blame lies can be discussed. The weather had a lot to do with it but, in 1958, there is no doubt about the fact, the testing system which is now available was not then available and I am ready to say as somebody who has some experience of the particular trade, that in the year 1958 there was quite a lot of wheat, or a certain volume of wheat at any rate, that could have been milled and made into flour that went for animal feeding.

The setting up of the central wheat laboratory and the availability of the results of tests, not only to people at points where wheat was taken in, but also to the farmers, was a great step forward. The fact that at the moment there is a disagreement between the National Farmers' Association and the millers on this point is something I regret very much. The National Farmers' Association have removed their two directors. It would be a great pity if this organisation were to fall down.

I am pleading here that the National Farmers' Association and the millers should get together and try to get the Central Wheat Laboratory running again. The laboratory had a difficult period during the first year. In the second year, things were better. Therefore they could make a real contribution and could create a situation whereby everybody involved in the production of wheat, from the man with his field of wheat to the flour miller, would be talking not on the lines of the medicine man in the jungle on wheat. Tests would be available to farmers who would become almost as good a judge of wheat in five or ten years' time as the experts. I think it would be a great mistake if this laboratory fell down. The Minister would be doing a very good service if he could succeed in getting agreement on this.

The price of feeding barley at £2 is not very attractive. One would have thought that last harvest when wheat yields were down, there would have been a spectacular increase in the acreage of barley. While there were few wheat rejections, there were some, and there was an increase in the price of feeding barley but no increase in wheat prices. The fact that there has not been an increase in the acreage of barley is just a question of price. It is something that should be looked into. I feel the Minister did not increase the price sufficiently.

I know there is a problem in relation to the feeders but there are two aspects on which the Minister could help. First, it must be accepted that Irish barley, stone by stone and ton by ton, is of higher value and palatability—I deliberately use the word— than any grains we can import. It is much higher than millet or sorghums which we are using at the moment. From that point of view, price per ton of pig feed could often be something which would lead us into great mistakes.

Even at the price of £25 per ton feeding barley is better than imported grain, such as millet, at £2 per ton less, I think if this idea were sold, all this constant wrangling about £1 per ton, which the feeders worry about, would be amicably settled. It is quite obvious that there will have to be an expanded subsidy on transport of feeding barley from, say, Deputy Corry's area, if it is grown there, to areas where it is not grown.

If these two things are looked at more generously that in the past, we will be able to get understanding from people, for instance, in Deputy M.P. Murphy's constituency. We can get a price so that transport on long hauls as in the past, will not be too expensive. We shall get a higher price for Irish feeding barley, which is much superior to any imported grains. It is all very well to talk about importing grains to produce pig meal at so many pounds less. That is not the answer.

The production and sale of oats is something I think the Minister might consider. The amount of oats now available means that the farmer has not been getting a good return per acre on his oats crop. The number of barrels per acre coming off good lands was, in fact, making the oats crop a better proposition for the farmer, if he could get sale for it, than feeding barley. Oats is a crop that can be sown on land which will not produce barley, and the oats are of a high quality. I have experience of this, and if the farmer could get sale for it, it would be an excellent thing.

Perhaps the Minister might consider the inclusion of oats in compounds and the purchase of oats by agents such as An Bord Gráin. There is a problem in this, in that oats have a high fibre content, and one could easily get above the upper limit of fibre of the licence. I have always found that the inclusion of oats in a wide variety of feeding stuffs has always improved them. We import a large volume of offals, from places behind the Iron Curtain and the Argentine.

A large amount of this could be substituted by the buying up of good quality Irish oats and its inclusion in compounds. It might be considered more expensive than pollard. In fact, its real food value, as distinct from its analysis, would be much higher, so that we are going wrong in charging a low price for imported grains and excluding high quality home-produced grain, the production of which here would give employment to our people.

Small western farmers are to have a system of instructors and I presume attention will be given to the sort of thing I have been adumbrating, that is, the expansion of individual farms by planned schemes. I had an exchange of view here last week on a question relating to difference of opinion between the Minister and the Charlestown commitee. I should like to urge upon the Minister to try to settle this. The only way we can encourage these people is by having them on our side. There is a conflict of opinion with Father McDyer and the Charlestown committee and they feel there should be real investment by the Government.

There is nothing wrong with real investment by the Government. There may be a question of repayment and, on this, the Government should lean towards Fine Gael policy and give a reduced interest rate. But this can be settled. If we have this potential not only in what we call our really good arable lands but also in these small farms in the west, then it has to be tackled. If we find the Government and the people who have to do the job at variance with each other, we shall not get very far.

Somebody has to make a decision. I feel my judgment is better than that of Father McDyer.

Compromise is the thing. If it is possible to get compromise, I would ask the Minister to get it. He would do a service to his Party, to the Government and to everybody if he would try to get this thing going. Perhaps, by an amelioration of judgments—the judgment of Father McDyer and that of the Minister—the matter could be helped to move forward. At the moment, it will not move forward and that is all there is to it.

On the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture last November, there was discussion on pork exports to Britain and the question was raised whether or not all our pigs should be bought by the Pigs and Bacon Commission. We took the view that it is a bad thing to centralise completely and to leave in the hands of one person the fixing of price. There will always be argument on the question of price. Even with all the good will in the world, judgments can differ. In the most measured way, because we accept the problem of the Pigs and Bacon Commission, we feel there should be open buying in addition to purchase by the Pigs and Bacon Commission.

The Minister mentioned turkey production and said he did not see how we could hope to get back to the figures of the early 1950's because huge combines are now purchasing tens of thousands of turkeys. Somebody in England is estimated to provide ten per cent of the requirements of the country. There is an old adage: if you cannot beat them, join them, and it is probably the wisest course that we should join them. It may be difficult to do that. To some extent, the turkey market last Christmas was managed by these big operators, with the result that prices did not drop catastrophically as they did in previous years. While we might not be satisfied with the price, there was at least some continuity in the level of price, whereas the seesaws that had been destroying the energy of our turkey producers were the rule for many years before that.

The Department of Agriculture, through private enterprise, through their own activities, through any Government agencies, through co-operative societies and all the different parts of our society, would do well in relation to poultry, and indeed in relation to pigs, to see what alliance they can form with these big operators whom we see as our basic enemy against the small producer but who could be used by us even to the extent of a price fixing organisation so that our own producers would not be subject to these catastrophic falls. This may be a farfetched idea at this stage but any experience of trade that I have seems to indicate that that sort of thing happens. The big operator fixes the price and can help you. You, too, can be of use to him and, if you are not, then all you are is an irritant. From that point of view, and our system of export, I feel there is in the future some homework to be done there.

I began by indicating that the Government had failed to raise cow numbers to 1,500,000 by 1964. I pointed out that they had produced no plan that would achieve the level of agricultural expansion which is seen by the National Farmers' Association and by all observers of agriculture in Ireland to-day to be so necessary to safeguard the jobs of all the people involved. Certainly, there is a lack of imagination not only in the Minister's Department but in the Fianna Fáil Party as to expansion in agriculture.

It is clear from the Minister's statement that foreign marketing conditions have improved very much recently. That is bound to increase farming incomes here and to be of general benefit to the nation. As an exporting country, we have to depend very much on the conditions obtaining in foreign markets. The prices for beef and all meat exports improved recently and the quantities required likewise improved. The Minister said his main difficulty now is to get sufficient to meet the quotas we hold on the British market. I am very pleased that such a position obtains and that the Minister has now changed his views in relation to the British market. Everyone knows that Britain is our chief customer for agricultural produce and that, without that customer, the income level of the farming community would be very much reduced. It is noticeable that there is some improvement in markets in other countries but it is relatively insignificant. Whilst it is a good thing to try to develop markets with countries other than Britain, we must bear in mind that, in the foreseeable future, Britain will continue to be our main market.

With increased marketing facilities and improved prices, the income of agriculturists improved but the income of some agriculturists, particularly smallholders, did not improve in proportion to the income of people in other employments who are guaranteed minimum percentage increases. During my time in this House I have referred again and again to the difficulty of applying a general agricultural policy in this country. I believe in the zoning of the country for agricultural purposes, because, even though it is a relatively small country, what applies in one part of it does not apply in another. Agricultural conditions in Dublin, Kildare and Meath and other counties through which I pass on my way to Dublin differ entirely from those in south-west Cork and along the western seaboard generally. I was hopeful that we would have had a much more elaborate statement from the Minister on the report of the interdepartmental Committee but there was only a slight reference to it. I hope this scheme will expand and that some benefit will accrue to the small farmers.

The Minister's reference was that the report of the Committee regarding pilot development schemes had been published and accepted by the Government and that arrangements were being made for pilot schemes in the 12 counties concerned. The Minister is anxious to secure the support of the various agricultural organisations in these areas and I can assure him that as far as south-west Cork is concerned he will have that support.

It must be said, and this is a very difficult problem to deal with, that there is a wide variation in the incomes of our farmers. While we have many farmers with big acreages of good quality land, who are equipped with all kinds of modern machinery and in whose case it is only reasonable to assume that their incomes are good, on the other hand, we have a big number of small farmers who have not got the land and whose land, in many cases, is second or third-class, with the yield correspondingly low. Such farmers as these present a big problem. We have debated here, year after year, the question of improving the conditions of our small farmers, and while it is all right to make suggestions, I know it is difficult to put some of these suggestions into practice so as to improve drastically the conditions of these people.

More than 60 per cent of the holdings in my area would be termed uneconomic. The report of the Committee on the development of small farmers set out a number of ways in which the incomes of such smallholders could be improved. As a result of that report and of a number of lectures and talks that have been given, a noticeable feature of the present day is that the people of west Cork are now availing to a much greater extent of the services of the agricultural advisers. Up to some time ago, these people were not inclined to listen to the agricultural advisers. They felt that they had nothing new to offer them and so were not keeping up with modern trends in agriculture. That attitude has now changed completely and a big percentage of farmers are anxious and willing to listen to the advice of the agricultural instructors and to put it into practice.

However, if the average small holder is to put that advice into practice and develop his economy further, it is necessary that he should have capital. A big number of them find it difficult to get capital for the improvement of their farms. Much has been made of the credit facilities available to farmers but a number of them are fighting shy of applying for these facilities because it is difficult to get these loans, despite what has been said by the Minister and Deputy Donegan. It is not a simple matter and they also feel that the interest charges are a deadly burden on them. So far as the development of small farms is concerned, any scheme produced for that purpose should contain a clause that interest-free loans will be available.

I am not unmindful of the fact that such a scheme could be open to abuse. A number of small farmers with some capital obtained through inheritance or otherwise would apply for such a loan while, at the same time, having money invested at a high rate of interest. However, regulations could be drawn up in such a way that only the genuine applicants who are without capital themselves would qualify for such loans. We will have to be much more generous in our dealings with small holders in the future. They are steadily declining in number. I had hoped that we had arrested that trend and that the number leaving their farms and going away would show a decline but I find that is not the case.

In reply to a question two weeks ago, the Minister told Deputy Sweetman the number of electors in each constituency and in Cork south-west had declined by 1,251 since the general election of 1961. In a relatively small area and having regard to the large number who had left in the years before, that figure shows a big decline. You can take it then that in Cork south-west there are 1,260 people fewer in the age group 21 and upwards than at the time of the last election. Most of the people who are leaving are smallholders.

I do not want to bring into the discussion matters that would be more appropriate to the Department of Lands but a significant feature of the position which obtains in relation to the number of smallholders who are living on farms deemed to be uneconomic is that a large number of them remain unmarried. In west Cork in the congested districts, a significant percentage of small farmers are unmarried and it is unlikely that the greater percentage of these will ever get married. That should not be the case in 1964. In regard to the reason for this, there was, first of all, the emigration over the years. A large number of the girls of marriageable age have emigrated or have gone into the towns. There is also the feeling amongst such girls that a small farm would provide a very poor married life, that it would not be a very bright life. Girls in general are not inclined to marry into small holdings because they feel the incomes from such holdings are not sufficient to maintain families in modern standards or to educate them. That is something to which the Minister and the Government must address themselves.

The Minister for Agriculture has no responsibility for that matter which has been amply discussed on the Lands Estimate and the Land Bill.

Set up a marriage bureau.

I am rather surprised at you, Sir. My case is that the Minister's job is to improve the lot of the small farmer. That is his job, and do not tell me it is not.

The Minister has no responsibility for the point raised by the Deputy.

It is seldom or never I get up here to speak that I do not have to listen to some dictation from the Chair. I have always respected the Chair but I think on this occasion the Chair is going a little too far. If this matter is not relevant to the Vote, I do not know what is. I am making the case——

The Deputy has already made the case; he may not make it again because it does not arise. The matter would be relevant on the Estimate for Lands.

The standard of living of small farmers is not relevant to the Estimate for Agriculture?

The Deputy was discussing the marriage rate.

With all respects to you, Sir, we must do something more practical to improve the standards of these smallholders and I believe that is the main responsibility of the Department of Agriculture. To bring about that position, there should be an improvement in the advisory services available, both for the development of horticulture and home industries such as pig rearing, poultry, etc. Some of these sidelines of farming which were very remunerative in years gone by are not so remunerative now for the small farmers. In the past, the poultry industry provided them with a substantial income and it gave selfemployment to a big number of the womenfolk on the small farm. That industry seems to a great extent to have disappeared, or at least it is an uneconomic industry, as is admitted by the Minister in his statement.

The Minister is worried about pigs and feels he was justified in restricting the export of pork this year as the number of pigs has not measured up to our requirements. The obvious reason for that is that the price payable for pigs is not as good as it should be. I am reasonably conversant with pig production costings and I feel that the small producer is not getting the price which will give him a fair profit. I am not saying that he is losing money but that he is getting a price which does not reasonably compensate him for his work. Pig production is a very important industry in west Cork but the Minister now seems to indicate that if we are to keep our place in the sun, which I assume means in the foreign markets, we will have to go in for mass pig production. If that happens, it will adversely affect small producers.

I am not in agreement with the policy of setting up pig stations and producing thousands of pigs, unless there is an unlimited market abroad for such exports. We know that the foreign market for bacon and pig products selling at a reasonable price has always been limited. While the position improved somewhat this year, I do not believe in the policy which the Minister seems to advocate now, of setting up and allowing big combines to set up stations at which more than 1,000 pigs will be produced. If the demand were to recede, it would be a bad day for the small farmers who are dependent to a considerable extent on the small profits they make from pig rearing at present. It would be no harm for the Minister to go into the costings of pig production again and review them in the light of increases that have taken place all around, and see whether the increases of 8/- and 5/- are adequate in certain circumstances and whether they represent adequate compensation or not.

Horticulture is not mentioned in the Minister's report and neither could I find reference to it in the report on the activities of the Department. Some people feel that horticultural development is good for underdeveloped districts. We in west Cork are very much interested in horticultural development and we are hoping to see a food-processing plant being established in Skibbereen which will take a wide variety of vegetables. We have taken the initial steps to provide the necessary services and technical advice for the farmers who will grow the vegetables for the factory and the people have given their full support and co-operation financially.

With the development taking place at present in the establishing of a number of food-processing plants, it is indeed peculiar that there was no mention whatsoever of that industry in the Minister's statement. The Minister must feel it is of no consequence; otherwise, he would have addressed himself to it. However, I want to stress again that this development in our agricultural industry is a good one and I hope the Minister and his advisers will give us in south-west Cork, at any rate, all the assistance they can in the establishment of a food-processing plant there.

I wish to refer to a little discussion between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael a while ago. My friend, Deputy Corry, was interrupting Deputy Donegan as he was giving statistics of wheat growing. I do not intend to enter into any dispute between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael on this matter but one thing is clear to me, that the emphasis now is on grass production and the use of fertilisers to improve grass growth. It is interesting to note that when the Taoiseach presented the senior award last year for the "Farmer of the Year", he gave it to a farmer who was entirely a grass farmer, who grew no wheat, oats or barley.

That is where the Taoiseach has gone wrong.

You would not be seen dead in a field of wheat.

I was not born until 1923.

It was well after 1923. Deputy Dillon would not be seen dead in a field of wheat.

The emphasis is now on grass farming. The fact that a grass farmer got this award indicates that the viewpoint of our agricultural people at the present time is that grass is the surest crop.

That has always been the case.

Deputy Gibbons is not so naive as to think that is the situation.

The bullock for the road and the land for the people.

I am sure this is mainly to encourage the production of beef. The price of beef helps our balance of payments and our economy. However, while the production of beef may be good for the economy, it has little or no employment content. That is possibly one of the reasons the number engaged in agriculture is steadily declining. The wheel has turned full circle. It must be admitted—I am stating this as an impartial observer here and I remember the time when the other boys used to be condemned for promoting grass or commenting adversely on wheat—that while this grass policy is good in some respects, its main disadvantage is that it has a very small agricultural employment content.

That is where the Deputy is wrong.

How am I wrong?

We shall tell the Deputy in due course.

Cattle production employs people.

It is helpful to south-west Cork in this way that the people in the midland counties on the big farming estates, such as Deputy Gibbons himself owns, buy our stores. It is helpful to the farmers in the congested districts because it is an outlet for the sale of stores. However, in this present-day world, I do not know whether it is right or just to have these big farms, whether or not there should be some ceiling to the acreage of land held by any one person. That is a very complicated question and one into which I do not intend to enter now. I am a firm believer in the rights of private ownership but what I see happening in some places should not be encouraged, that is, a farmer going around buying all the holdings he can. A speculator would be a more apt term for him and some restriction should be imposed on his activities.

The Minister told us on this Estimate—I am sorry he is absent because I am sure if he were here, he would agree with me — that he is giving £6,111,000 subsidy towards the dairying industry this year. I believe the increase the farmers received recently was a fair one and one to which they were entitled. Of course, the bigger the farmer, the more he got from that. I realise it may be difficult to administer any other kind of policy except bringing in a scale. I think that instead of giving a flat increase of 2d per gallon to milk producers, possibly the small farmers, up to 7,000 or 8,000 gallons, should have got 3d; then 2d should have been given for the rest, 4,000 or 5,000 gallons; and possibly one penny over and above the amount. That would be a fairer basis for paying the subsidy than a flat rate.

The production of milk varies very much and in many parts of the country the milk yields are very low, and it is very difficult to raise them. I know every possible effort is being made by all types of farmers, with two exceptions, to increase milk yields. I think the lower milk yield areas should have that preference and that instead of the flat increase, possibly the best way would be to give them so much for a given number of gallons and reduce the subsidy proportionately after that. In that way we would be conferring a more general benefit on farmers as a whole.

Island holders do not benefit from the £6 million devoted to the dairying industry. At the last meeting of Cork County Committee of Agriculture, it was decided to recommend again the payment of a subsidy to milk producers in islands who cannot get creamery facilities. I questioned the Minister some time ago about this and I gathered from his remarks that he was quite satisfied to help them to get creamery facilities. But it is not economically possible to do that. The cost of providing such facilities on the islands, Clare Island, Sherkin Island, Hare Island and possibly others around the coast is far too great. The Dairy Disposal Board considered that question some years ago and felt the best way of helping these islands was to give a subsidy confined to the people living on islands. It is easy to do that. Perhaps some people in isolated places on the mainland would make a similar claim, but at the Cork meeting we were satisfied to confine it to the islands.

On the present basis that there is one and one-fifth pounds of butter in a pound of butter fat, the butter produced by the islanders fetches only 60 per cent of what is obtained by the farmer who has creamery facilities. The island butter-producer gets only 60 per cent of the price available to those with creamery facilities for his butter. Small farming and milk production is part of the economy of the islands and we cannot say it is uneconomic to produce milk there. We cannot act in a dictatorial manner and I believe the Minister should agree with the recommendation made to him to provide this subsidy for island producers.

There is scarcely any need now to refer to the question of agricultural workers, who, unfortunately, have disappeared to a great extent. They must work seven days a week in many cases as cows must be milked on Sunday as well as Monday. It is very peculiar that these workers cannot get anything like the same rewards as industrial workers doing work not nearly as skilled. Some people believe the agricultural worker is unskilled but, in fact, agriculture is one of the most skilled professions. If one wants to work effectively and properly, one must devote much time to becoming skilled. The present level of wages, about £7 weekly, will not attract anybody to agriculture.

The case is made, and, I assume, is being accepted by the Agricultural Wages Board, that the economy of our farms would not warrant a higher wage at present. The Minister must bear that in mind if it is correct, but, if so, it is equally correct to say that the income of the agriculturist is far lower than the income of the industrialist. We must endeavour to close the gap because if the agricultural worker is not to get a reasonable return for his work, he will not stay on the land. While the agricultural worker has to a great extent disappeared, I am including the farmer's sons because they are working on the land, and if their income does not measure up to what they would get in alternative employment, it is likely they also will leave the land.

The Minister has been fortunate in reaping the result of improved agricultural conditions in Western Europe. We are benefiting and our cattle prices, fortunately, are reasonably good at present and people selling cattle are satisfied. Pig prices are not so good and people are dissatisfied with them. I hope the Minister will review pig production costings and adjust the figures again if he thinks it advisable.

Before concluding, I wish to refer briefly to the bovine TB scheme in which we in Cork are very interested. We have made every endeavour through our local representatives, the committees of agriculture and the bovine TB committee, to encourage the disposal of reactors. I think our efforts have met with reasonable success and the present position is much brighter than 12 months ago. Unfortunately, in the early years of the scheme, we did not make the headway we should have made but we are now moving reasonably well. The disputes that arose between the Department and farmers about the paying of bonuses and other matters were in most cases I know of fairly met by the Department. I am very pleased to state that a big number of them were settled amicably and in most cases I think the farmers got the benefit of the doubt. There are some cases still outstanding, small in number, perhaps, but I assume the same yardstick will be applied to these as was applied to the others. I do not like compulsion and, if there is such a term as "gentle compulsion"——

Incentive.

Squeeze.

The representations made now to public representatives have taken on a new pattern. One is told that now that these people have gone to the trouble of getting rid of all their reactors and got clear herds, and so on, there are still a few fellows here and there and, while these reactors are retained, there is a likelihood of their contaminating all over again the herds that have been cleared. Naturally the farmers have a grievance. I should like the Department to endeavour in every way possible to buy up these remaining reactors. The case made is that the price paid for reactors has not moved up in proportion to the price for the non-reactors. We all know that cattle prices have increased.

In the early stages of the scheme, the price was satisfactory. Some complained naturally enough but the majority were satisfied the price was reasonable. I know the Minister's officers can pay only the market value and that is all they should pay, but a more intensive drive should be made to purchase the remaining reactors because everyone in Cork, and in the other five southern counties as well, is anxious that we should become an attested area and have the advantages of that state. The Department should instruct its officers now to call on the few farmers who still have reactors. I am sure that would present no difficulty. Most of the farmers co-operated in the scheme. There are, I think 40 officers in Cork and the number of reactors has declined. I think they should call on these farmers and try to——

Gently persuade.

——gently persuade them to arrive at a settlement. In conclusion, I trust the Parliamentary Secretary will use a little gentle persuasion on the Minister to come to the aid of the people I mentioned earlier.

It is always entertaining to listen to a shopkeeper or someone engaged in milling, like Deputy Donegan, expatiating on agriculture. I was intrigued, too, to hear Deputy Murphy from west Cork debating the merits of grass as against tillage farming. I myself speak at a bit of a disadvantage because I happen to be a farmer and so I would not have the same wide grasp that a shopkeeper or a miller might have of this matter. However, as a farmer, I know that, with the best will in the world, if one wants to be a tillage man in the best conditions of marketing and everything else, one will not get away with anything more than about three-eighths of one's acreage under cereals and the other five-eighths necessarily must be under grass. Grass is, therefore, always the most important commodity we can produce here. I remember hearing about an American philosopher, called Joshua White, who said the trouble with people is not so much ignorance "as knowing so many things that ain't so". Perhaps that is the trouble with Deputy Murphy.

Deputy Donegan was at some pains to demonstrate that the work of the Minister and the Government in the sphere of agriculture had been a failure, and that, despite the hard facts presented by the Department the other day in the notes on the activities of the Department. One of the first things I ever heard in this House was Deputy Dillon saying that he had left the country in the position that there were more cows, more sheep, more pigs, more cattle generally, than at any time since the Famine. If one consults these notes, one finds that in each year since Deputy Dillon left the Department of Agriculture, and this side of the House, progress has been maintained and, not only maintained, but increased very steeply. Even Deputy Donegan was forced to concede that we will probably achieve the target we have set before us in the cattle expansion programme.

I never conceded that at all. I never mentioned it; I did not express a view on it.

It may not be immediately visible to people who are engaged in business rather than farming, but the progress made since the Fianna Fáil Government took over the management of our agriculture is readily visible to every farmer as he drives through the country today.

This personal line is not very worthy of the Deputy.

If Deputy Donegan does not stop interrupting, I will tell Deputy Corry on him.

I am a farmer's son.

I thought the Deputy was a miller.

I am, but I was born on a farm.

Order. Deputy Gibbons on the Estimate.

The Government fertiliser subsidy scheme, the heifer scheme, the increased grants for farm buildings, silage and equipment will all produce a marked increase in agricultural production. When we were discussing the heifer scheme last November, practically every speaker on the Opposition benches said the scheme was a rancher's scheme, the big man's scheme, and the small man would not benefit at all. The lawyers said it; the shopkeepers said it; the schoolteachers said it. The farmers knew that was not so, and the farmers by and large sit on the Fianna Fáil benches.

The best test of any scheme is the test of time, and the test of time shows that the benefits of the heifer scheme have passed right down to the small dairyman who produces the heifer calf. The price of heifers and cattle generally has never been as good as it is now, clearly demonstrating that the benefits of this scheme have not stopped with the man who buys 20, 50 or 100 heifers and uses them to stock his land. In order that these heifers would be available to him, in the first place, he had to buy them from the small dairyman and since there was such keen demand for them, naturally, the price rose to meet it. That should have been apparent to the House last November. A great deal of unnecessary and damaging propaganda was made at that time on this score, but, luckily, the effect of that propaganda has been pretty small.

I want to comment on something Deputy Murphy said. He was talking about the small farmers in west Cork and mentioned the fact that they engage in pig production, but he said a most extraordinary thing. He said he was very afraid of these pig fattening stations. What would happen, he asked, if we produced too many pigs? He clearly intimated that the safest thing and the best thing for the small farmers in west Cork to do was to be very careful about the number of pigs they produced and to take damned good care that they did not produce so many or they would find themselves in trouble.

Coming from Deputy Murphy, we might not mind it so much, but there is an attitude of that kind, a fear that we will produce too great a volume of agricultural production and get ourselves into trouble. One of the first things we must get out of our mind is that very foolish idea.

I think it was Deputy Donegan who congratulated the Government on the fact that availability of credit is much easier now than it has been in the past.

I did not congratulate the Government.

It used to be said in my young days when I started farming first that there were only three ways a farmer could finance his operations— matrimony, patrimony or parsimony. I am glad to say that other methods have been added to that armoury and that credit is now more readily available. The availability itself is not so much the problem as the reluctance on the part of a great many people to make use of the facilities available.

Probably, there is the shadow of being in debt upon our people. In our particular history, especially as people from the land there is a sort of folk memory of owing the landlord money when money was not available and the great thing was to have ready money, dry money, and to avoid at all costs getting into debt for any reason whatever. That particular attitude to the use of credit we have inherited, probably, from our parents and grandparents but in the modern business context, it is not only unnecessary but is definitely detrimental to our agricultural production.

One of the most significant things that emerged in recent times in the agricultural world was the circulation of the Knapp Report on the co-operative undertakings in the country. It was very timely and I think the first immediate effects of Mr. Knapp's report are beginning to be felt already. I think that most of what Mr. Knapp said in his report had been recognised already but we have a tendency as a people not to accept local prophets but if we get an expert from Scandinavia or New Zealand or, in this case, from America, we will probably listen to him and the report which he produces will become a sort of textbook with people who consider these things.

I have said here before and I do not have to bore the House by repeating too much of it ad nauseam, that it is my belief that when we come to consider the question that has always been kicked about this House and outside it, that some people speak of the problem of the small farmers because it is the popular thing to speak about. Some people speak of the problem of the small farmers because as a political class, they are pretty numerous and if you manage to say the thing that pleases them, you will probably have their political support, but, at the back of all that hot air type of talk about the small farmers, there is a very real problem. It has a historic basis in that a great many of our people quite near enough to us, maybe our grandparents or great grandparents, were refugees from hunger and starvation, and on the day they could say to themselves they knew where their next meal was coming from, they were happy men and women.

All over the country, but, I suppose, particularly in the province of Connacht and on the western seaboard, there were created for the purpose of ekeing out a subsistence living tens of thousands of what are known as farms of five, ten and 20 acres of bad land and when economic conditions were bad not only here but in Britain, say, in the 30s, when there were hunger marches from the north of England down to London and when there were millions of unemployed in Britain, there was no place for the people from the west of Ireland and the impoverished rural hinterland of the west to go to take refuge from their miserably low standard of living. That situation has been completely revolutionised and the emigration we have encountered, especially since the last war, is mainly due to the fact that there is now available in Great Britain a large pool of employment and not one of these very poor people is forced to remain and accept the low standard of living that they had thrust upon them before then.

There is a certain type of man who distorts the picture to some extent, a man, possibly, with five acres of land. Statistically, he is referred to as a farmer but almost in every case he must necessarily take a job somewhere else, at forestry, with the county council or some other place, and in that way he uses his land merely as a method of providing himself with some addition to his wages but it is with farmers who are just above the survival line or just below it that I am concerned now. If they continue to try as individuals, isolated from everybody else, to make a go of it economically, I do not think that they can make it. The reason is that their costs of production are higher than they ought to be, and obviously, then, the answer to their problem is to attack the question of cutting down their costs of production. This is where the co-operative movement should begin.

I do not say for a moment that the co-operative movement should exclude farmers of any size. As a farmer, I take a very poor view of the type of people who would segregate us into different types and classes and acreages and all that kind of thing. We country people have a tradition of existing as a community and a co-operative in an area should take in all the members of the agricultural community but with the special intention and knowledge that a great part of their task is to see that their weaker neighbours did not go down for want of their help and assistance through the co-operative method.

Many years ago, some very patriotic and selfless people started the co-operative movement in Ireland and dotted the south of Ireland with co-operative creameries. Probably through fault in organisation and for a multitude of very complex reasons, the continued growth of the co-operative movement into a great and living thing was arrested and, as has been pointed out in this House before, each small co-operative creamery became a little republic, each on its own, not only completely independent of any other society that might be four or five miles away, but very often in competition with it. Unfortunately, we arrive at a stage at which when people speak of co-operatives, they understand that word to mean a dairy or creamery. The words "co-operative" and "creamery" became synonymous. This is very important because if a co-operative does not embrace every endeavour the farmer undertakes, it is not a co-operative at all. If the individual societies in an area do not join together and evolve common production policies and assist one another, there is no co-operation at all.

When the Knapp Report was circulated first, there was a most peculiar reaction from the members of the IAOS themselves. They applauded loudly. I do not wish to be unduly unkind to the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society. It must be said that it was their duty by their very title to see that our agriculture was organised on co-operative lines. For 40 years at least, there were no great developments and any development that did come came from the individual societies which made progress. No leadership of any kind came from the IAOS.

One of the comments the Knapp Report makes is that re-organisation should be undertaken by the IAOS. I would approach this question with the greatest trepidation because I feel that that organisation is not delivering the goods. I do not wish to blame any individual or group of individuals. Perhaps some constitutional snag or fault in the organisation methods has resulted in the gap in production. I should like the Government to see that the IAOS is completely reorganised before any such vital trust is committed to its care. I should also like the Government to keep a watching brief over the administration of the IAOS in the field of co-operation.

As I have said previously, we have tended in the past to consider that co-operatives were dairies alone. There are a great many methods by which farmers' individual costs can be kept down by co-operative arrangements. There are some co-operative societies operating on their own, without any help from other sources. They have developed fertiliser distribution centres, animal feed milling businesses and many other enterprises, such as machinery pools. On the question of machinery pools, I think a lot of progress can be made. That is a type of organisation similar to the dairy society. What I would envisage is a group of six, seven or ten farmers in an area where it would be difficult for individual farmers to buy a tractor, a plough, a harrow and all the other expensive implements they have to buy. It would not be economic for all the farmers to buy these implements. Perhaps one or two tractors or one or two ploughs would be adequate for all of them. In order to establish machinery of this kind, there is a need to educate our people in this co-operative idea. There is a need to educate them to the necessity for dealing with these things on business lines and not on a lanamachree sort of basis which will inevitably lead to failure.

One of the things which has struck me as being wrong with the co-operative movement is the trend that at the bottom there is the individual co-operative society and at the top there is the IAOS, with nothing at all in between. It is possible to divide the country into areas where patterns of agriculture of a like nature exist. In Munster, Cork, Limerick, parts of Waterford and parts of Tipperary, the big enterprises are dairying and pigs. Except in parts of East Cork, there is no great emphasis on tillage. That is an area with a certain type of husbandry where all the co-operatives and their interests are similar. I do not think it is beyond the bounds of possibility that a local organisation could be arranged whereby representatives of each of these societies could come together regularly to hammer out a common production policy on, say, cereal grains, seed grains, fertilisers, and so on. They could place contracts with other co-operatives in the cereal growing areas. In that way the fundamental and basic idea of co-operation could be developed. Co-operation means nothing at all if the individual societies do not co-operate together.

In my own area of south-east Leinster and in County Kilkenny, there are 22 societies. I think it is quite feasible that some particular aspect of farm production could be made the responsibility of one or more of these societies. For instance, one particular society could be charged with the production of animal foods of all kinds; another could take on the fertiliser distribution; and yet another could, possibly, run a large machinery pool. It would be for the combined organisation of the individual societies to determine how this could be arranged. It is necessary, to get a really good co-operative organisation, that some sort of regional council of this kind should be established.

People talk about advisory services. Most of us agree on their importance and their necessity. I had a peculiar experience during the year with our committee of agriculture. We thought it would be advisable, and necessary, to take on four more new instructors, but, to my surprise, it was the National Farmers Association who objected to our taking on more advisers, on the ground that the advice we had at the present time was sufficient. However, that is another story. I think the best way of all to run an advisory service is through a co-operative enterprise of the kind I have described.

Deputy M.P. Murphy spoke of his trepidation and fear in the matter of small farmers rearing too many pigs. He spoke officially on behalf of the Labour Party and it is interesting to know what the Labour Party view is, although this is causing us all concern. The Labour Party are afraid that we are rearing too many pigs and that if the small farmers raise extra pigs, they will get into trouble. That very emphatically is not the view of this side of the House. Before I leave the subject of co-operation, there is a type of very small-scale co-operation which I should like the Minister to consider, especially in the western areas or in any area where there are farmers whose acreage is small and who require help of a special kind in order to stay afloat.

At Rath, near Tullow, County Carlow, in my constituency, a pig co-operative was established by small farmers. They communally finish their pigs there. I think it is only in the teething stages yet. It has meant a great deal economically to all the small farmers in that area and most of them there are small farmers. Telefís Éireann did a feature on it some time ago.

What the farmers in County Carlow can do in that respect for themselves, and by themselves, can be done in County Mayo, in west Cork or anywhere else this problem arises. The great thing is that the cost of the finishing of the pig is reduced to the individual farmer. He has a guaranteed market for his bonhams. The pig itself is produced under very tightly controlled conditions against disease and against excesses of too high or too low a temperature. They are produced under ideal conditions.

The Government would do well to consider a special scheme of grants for the erection of communal pig stations—not necessarily very big ones. I do not see that there would be any objection to a six- or a ten-farmer communal pig finishing house, although, if it is too small there will be a question of management and, since management must be good, it is necessary that the enterprise be of a size sufficient to guarantee good management.

I do not apologise for harping so much on the question of co-operation because it is the most vital thing of all that is before us. As farmers who are resolved to stay on the land, it must be the resolve of this House and of everybody in the country to ensure that all our people there get a fair chance to remain on the land. I believe that whether the farms are large or small, they are where these people want to stay. One of the big obstacles to the realisation of this is the absence of any sort of training in the general subject of co-operation. Creamery managers, as a class, are very efficient people. They are highly trained dairy men. They take a degree in Dairy Science. Their speciality is dairying. I think it would be necessary for our agricultural advisers, for our creamery managers and for our co-operative committee members to have instruction on the general principles of co-operation and on the methods by which co-operative schemes can be implemented.

I should like very much to see the Minister examine this question of the training of personnel, especially Department personnel, in this general context because I believe that if we do not do this, there are a great many small farmers who will not be saved by the Land Commission or by anybody else. I agree that the initiative must come from the farmers themselves. The Government's part will be to help, to organise and to provide financial assistance where necessary but the initiative must come from the farmers themselves. The sooner we, as farmers, realise that, the better.

I do not want to go back on the discussion that we had earlier about wheat. I think we can safely leave a historical approach to wheat to other Deputies.

Hear, hear.

I am very glad to see the Fine Gael Party have at long last decided that they like wheat because there was a long time when they did not like the stuff at all. I have spoken about wheat testing before in this House but I have to do it again because a new situation has arisen. In 1962, the National Farmers Association and the millers agreed to the introduction of the Hagberg test as a method of the determination of the millability of the wheat samples. The National Farmers Association agreed to take part in the conducting of a thing that was called by the rather flattering title of The Central Wheat Laboratory. Actually, it was the flour millers' wheat laboratory but, if they called it that, the farmers would not accept it and so they called it the Central Wheat Laboratory. When the harvest came, in 1962, and the Hagberg test was put into effect, it was discovered that too much wheat was passing the test. The millers unanimously, without consultation with anybody, said they would introduce a maltose test as a method of establishing the presence of alpha-amylase fertility which causes the dough in the bread not to rise.

The Deputy will never get a medal for physics.

Go on; the Deputy is in command.

If Deputy Donegan wants to expand on that, I shall give way to him. The maltose test was introduced by the millers as a method of determination of millability. Millability, they say, is affected by the presence or absence of alpha-amylase. While alpha-amylase in a flour sample will cause the dough to gather at the bottom, beta-amylase will not. However, both are revealed by the maltose test. Therefore, as the Agricultural Institute has demonstrated, the maltose test is quite useless as a method of determination of millability. If Deputy Donegan wants further illustration of this, I shall be delighted to give it to him.

The Deputy would want to be accurate about what he says.

I think that is accurate enough. I can appreciate that Deputy Donegan, as a miller, does not like to have the facts of this case brought out too much in the open but those are the facts.

The Agricultural Institute have said that in the 1962 harvest many samples of millable wheat were rejected by the millers because of this false test. Deputy Donegan has said that he is sorry that the NFA have come out of the flour millers' laboratory. I am glad they have come out of it. The business of the NFA is to look after the interests of the farmers and not those of the flour millers, and the setting up of the Central Wheat Laboratory was largely in the interests of the millers and not of the farmers. I am glad that the NFA have seen that. The unfortunate position is that the millers, and the millers alone, have up to now determined what wheat would be bought and what wheat would not be bought. I do not believe that they have dealt with this in a conscientious way.

Speaking about the Flour Millers Association, I want to say that it is a peculiar organisation, in that it consists of some millers who have served the community for many generations. There are several millers of this type in my constituency and two of them have been rationalised out of existence by the Flour Millers Association in recent years. I do not want to see any more of my neighbours rationalised out of the business in which they have been for many generations. There are a couple of big fish in the pond and they will eat the little fish if the little fish do not cooperate. It is those big fish that call the tune and I do not think they have served the wheat industry well.

The wheat industry depends not alone on the millers but most of all on the wheat producers who, as the statistics at the back of the notes show, are getting fed up with the antics of the millers and are registering their displeasure by getting out of wheat. It is for the Minister to take due notice of these facts and to realise that the interests of the wheat producers are being abused by this organisation.

That is your Minister's job.

The unfortunate part about it is that the Minister would never have agreed to the acceptance of the Hagberg test the first day but the matter was lifted out of his hands. The NFA stepped in where angels feared to tread. I remember that in June, 1962, I deprecated the decision of the NFA to be associated with this and I pointed out that it could only work against them. I do not want to be so pro-farmer that I would ask the millers to pass anything offered to them. Any farmer in the wheat growing areas will agree that because of weather conditions more than anything else, a great deal of unmillable wheat was produced in 1960, a year in which the Government had to step in to help the farmers out and, thank God, we had a Government prepared to help the farmers out. I would agree as a farmer that it is necessary to get a decent sample of wheat or we will not produce a decent sample of flour, but I do not agree that the millers have a right to set up standards with which the farmers must comply, especially when these standards are proved scientifically to be false and misleading.

I agree, and it is your Minister's job to see that the wheat bought is millable.

The Minister undoubtedly has a function in the matter, but in 1962 the NFA entered into this agreement without, as far as I know, any reference to the Minister at all. It is almost like the fellow from the Deputy's constituency who had the sheep dog that drove the car.

He is not from my constituency; he is from Louth.

The NFA sat in the driver's seat and, unfortunately in this case, drove the car into a tree. I do not want to be criticising the NFA. I am strongly of the opinion that it is a necessary organisation and that the sooner all the farmers of Ireland belong to the one organisation the better. Here and there there may be aberrations of one kind or another. In one locality, the NFA may be of a political nature, but eventually we will evolve a united farming organisation and I, as a farmer, will be delighted to see that day come. It is no part of my business to criticise the NFA but in this matter of wheat production, I want the facts recorded as I see them.

Deputy Donegan said that the price of feeding barley was inadequate. I would like to say that I agree heartily with him and I feel that in the journey which a barrel of barley travels from a combine in a farmer's field to a pig trough in Mayo, somebody is making a great deal of money out of it, and that somebody is not the farmer. That is another reason why the farmers would want to go into this business themselves. There must be a profit in it. I do not want to embarrass Deputy Donegan by asking him in the House what that profit is but I will ask him outside and it will be a long time before he answers me.

The farmer gets 39/- or 40/- on the field. There is a scarcity and the price by Christmas is 48/-, but the price of pig feed does not fluctuate that much and the producer is entitled to get a better price. I do not want to detain the House any further on this matter.

This annual Estimate comes before us at a time when the Government are working out the details of the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. On page 3 of his statement, the Minister refers to this fact when he says:

For some time past, my Department has been engaged in preparing, in co-operation with the Department of Finance, the sections dealing with agriculture in the detailed document on the Second Programme for Economic Expansion, which is to be published very soon.

Further down, he says:

The forthcoming publication on the Programme will deal with all the important aspects of future agricultural policy, as well as with the policy of other sectors of the economy.

He goes on to say that his Department is also preparing a separate publication which will spell out our agricultural development programme in much more detail. In view of these forthcoming publications, any discussion on the Estimate must be based on certain assumptions which can be made from the Minister's speech and from various statements by Government Ministers in recent months. I suppose the best that can be hoped for from this debate is that some of the suggestions made will be incorporated in the finalised publications setting out the position of agriculture in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion.

I should like to make a few general observations regarding the Second Programme for Economic Expansion insofar as it relates to agriculture. I do not agree with the target of 2.7 per cent which has been fixed as the annual growth rate for agriculture. I believe this target is unrealistic and is a clear indication either of the Government's failure to recognise the development potential of agriculture or an admission of their inability to achieve that potential. There is no doubt that given a dynamic Government policy for agriculture, a target quite a bit in excess of 2.7 per cent could be achieved. The NFA study, the Green Book, and the study by Mr. Raymond Crotty on behalf of the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers, both agree that the growth rate could in fact be much higher and both of them agreed on a figure of four per cent. In fact, it has been shown that unless a growth rate of at least four per cent is achieved over the next six or seven years, there is a grave danger that the targets for total economic expansion cannot be achieved.

The Minister must be taken to task for his failure to convince the Government of the key role agriculture occupies in the economy. He must also be criticised for having allowed the Government to omit agriculture from the NIEC, the National Industrial Economic Council, an omission which has been commented upon not merely by agricultural spokesmen and economists but by many individual observers.

Having made those observations, I want now to turn to a section of the Estimate in which I am vitally interested, the section which relates to the dairy industry. There is no doubt that the dairy industry is the foundation of the whole agricultural economy and consequently any plan or programme for increased agricultural expansion cannot succeed unless the dairy industry is put on a proper footing. The greatest weakness in Government policy in recent times has been the failure to tackle the problem of reorganising and expanding the dairy industry. There have been indications in recent months, however, that the Government have at least begun to see the light. The increase of 2d. a gallon of milk granted in the Budget is welcome but was long overdue. I readily concede it has helped in some small way to restore the confidence of the dairy farmers in their industry. It would be a vital mistake to assume that this increase is all that is necessary to achieve the increased output of cattle and milk which is envisaged in the Second Programme.

I want to repeat something I have said on a number of previous occasions, that is, that any plan for the improvement and development of the dairy industry must start right down at the grass level, as it were, at the farm level. I am convinced that our farmers, as the first essential, must be given an economic basic price for milk. No other incentive will succeed and it is the only incentive a dairy farmer really understands. I do not accept that the present basic price is an economic one; in fact, our basic price for creamery milk is the lowest by far of any country in western Europe.

Another very important factor has been referred to on numerous occasions in this House, that is, the question of payment on a quality basis. There has been increasing emphasis on the need for better quality milk. That is something which is recognised and with which we all agree. The more specialised types of dairy products demand a better and higher quality milk. The only way by which we can get this better quality milk is by compensating those farmers who go to the expense of producing better quality milk.

I have seen several examples in my constituency in recent times where dairy farmers have gone to considerable expense to modernise their production methods. They have changed over from the ordinary cowhouse, bucket-type milking to a very expensive milk parlour type of outfit. This involves a considerable expenditure. The position is that the farmer who goes to all the expense of installing the most modern type of equipment and is producing a better quality milk is still getting the same price for it as his neighbour who is producing milk in the same way as did his father or his grandfather before him. I am convinced that an incentive bonus and certain other incentives are necessary and which if they were given would produce very great results.

There is another point, that is, that assuming we agree there is an economic price and payment on a quality basis, there is the question of credit, which is vitally important. Credit is necessary for increasing cow herds, improving pastures, for the erection of new types of buildings, the installation of new equipment and so on. I must say in my experience I found the Agricultural Credit Corporation Officials most sympathetic and very helpful. I am convinced the rate of interest is too high and, as far as I am aware, the rate of interest here for agricultural credit is much higher than it is in other countries similar to ours in Western Europe. In Denmark, agricultural credit is available at 1½ per cent.

While I have seen very good use made of credit and while I recognise that in the past year or two the Agricultural Credit Corporation has been quite good in its approach to applications for credit, I believe, and farmers who have availed of the facilities have told me, that the rate of interest imposed is a very big burden on them. In fact, I suppose it would be possible, by going into the economics of it, to prove that it is a bad investment when farmers are expected to pay an interest rate of over six per cent.

That is why the idea of interest-free loans appealed to me and why I think our leader's idea of a £1,000 interest-free loan is an excellent one. I am surprised there has been a certain amount of opposition to it. This idea of an interest-free loan, let it be more or less than £1,000, would help in a very big way the dairy farming areas, when, at the present time, it is vital to increase the herd numbers, to instal modern equipment, and so on.

There is a fourth factor, the question of the advisory services. In dairy farming, particularly in view of the need for greater hygiene, the production of better quality milk, and so on, specialised advisory services should be made available to dairy farmers. I have seen many dairy farmers installing milking machines, for example, and because the machines were installed at a rush time, in the spring, and the person who installed them may have had a list of ten or 12 farmers waiting for machines, he did not have time to instruct the farmers properly in their use. There have been numerous cases—as I am sure every farmer in this House will agree—where because of the lack of proper instruction and proper advice in the use of the machinery, farmers ran into a great deal of trouble. There must be a specialised advisory service available to dairy farmers to advise them in the proper use of machinery, the best methods of producing clean milk, and so on.

This question of advisory services for the dairying industry is dealt with in the report of the survey team which examined the dairy products industry. I do know that one or two creameries have advisers available. I hope it is something which will become common in the not too distant future.

In regard to the creamery industry, there is undoubtedly scope for improvement and for a certain amount of reorganisation. The report to which I have referred, the report of the survey team which examined the dairy products industry, goes into great detail in relation to this question of the present structure of the creamery industry. It made numerous recommendations for reorganisation and modernising the entire creamery industry. On the occasion of the debate on last year's Estimate last November, several Deputies, including myself, dealt with this report in detail and, in view of the time limit that has been agreed on for this debate, I do not propose to go into detail again. However, as I have already said, as numerous organisations have put forward their views on the question of the reorganisation of the creamery industry, I believe it would be fatal to implement the recommendations in the report of this team regarding the reorganisation of the creamery industry.

The main point on which they based their recommendation was that there were too many small units at present, that many of these should be closed down and that processing should be concentrated on a large centre. I do not agree at all and there are at least four farmers' organisations interested in the dairying industry which do not agree with the recommendation of the survey team. We believe that the small unit or creamery, which is in reality a separating station, at the moment offers the most convenient and the most economical method of getting milk from the farm to the intake point. It would be fatal to have this wholesale closure and to have the process concentrated on large centres necessitating long-distance haulage and bulk transport of milk and involving many other factors which would, in the long run, be far more expensive than the present method.

I will agree, however, there is need for greater co-operation at the processing end. There is need for amalgamation, federation, call it what you like, among the co-operatives. I have in mind, in particular, the approach adopted by the Golden Vale group of creameries at Rathluirc in County Cork where there is a federation of 16 or so co-operatives which are shareholders in this processing outfit. That type of approach, where a number of co-operatives erect and look after a processing plant, is the ideal arrangement. I do hope that when a final decision is taken in the matter, this type of organisation which has worked so successfully in the Golden Vale will be adopted in other areas as well.

In addition to the report of the team which examined the dairy products industry, there is more recently the Knapp Report on co-operation. It is a very important document and will make a very significant contribution to our thinking and to our whole approach to co-operative organisation. I believe the re-organisation of the IAOS which has been recommended and which, I hope, will be implemented, will result in considerable progress towards promoting co-operation.

Before I leave this question of the creamery industry or processing industry, I want to refer to what I believe is one of the most serious topics at the present time, that is, the lack of adequate research facilities in the dairying industry. I believe it is urgently and vitally necessary to have laboratories established in various regions and to have at national level a full-scale research station to carry out research into all the aspects of milk production, processing, marketing and packaging. That also has been recommended in the survey of the dairy product industry.

I think other speakers referred to the success of the Bord Bainne campaign in Britain and I am very happy and pleased to pay tribute to Mr. O'Reilly and An Bord Bainne for the success achieved in Britain. I was over there in January and travelled through the midlands and had an opportunity of meeting people and discussing matters with them. I was very pleased with the impact made by that campaign. I have the greatest confidence that the campaign, when extended to other parts of Britain, will be equally successful. In fact, the success of Mr. O'Reilly and an Bord Bainne has led to the stage where we have to face the danger of not being able to meet our market commitments due to not having sufficient milk. Mr. O'Reilly, on a number of occasions, in recent months has publicly referred to the fact that it is vitally important that milk production should be increased to keep pace with increased markets which have been secured.

There was a big row in my county, although not in the constituency, because a proposal to establish a German powdered milk industry in Newcastle West had to be turned down, because, it seems, any further diversification at present would endanger our commitments on the British market. Mr. O'Reilly attended a public meeting there about six or eight weeks ago and pointed out that it would be dangerous to have any more diversification at present. He hoped that milk production would increase to the extent that not only would we be able to fulfil our export commitments but would also be able to proceed with the erection of further milk processing plants for products other than butter.

The Minister, in reply to a question yesterday, announced that a publicity campaign aimed at the greater use of milk and dairy products was about to be launched in the near future. I agree with that; I have advocated it on a number of occasions in the past two years. By and large, we are not sufficiently aware of the nutritional value of milk and dairy products, particularly cheese. We have a very high per capita consumption of butter but our per capita consumption of cheese is very low, one of the lowest in Europe, and I think a well-organised and well-directed publicity campaign would result in a considerable increase in the consumption of milk and cheese.

I want to make a brief reference to something in which I have a very great interest and something to which Deputy Gibbons referred, that is, the co-operative movement. The greatest hope for the future of Irish agriculture lies in this movement but there is a danger at present when quite a lot of thought is being given to the re-organisation of co-operation that we might overlook co-operation at farm level. This is vitally important. We have had a study of the co-operative movement as it applies to dairying, pig production and so on, and there are now plans for the reorganisation of the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society. I fear the application of the principle of co-operation at farm level might be overlooked and so I am making a brief reference to it.

Everybody agrees that the only hope for the survival of the small farmer is co-operation. While more farmers are aware of the value of co-operation, they find it extremely difficult to get professional advice on the actual methods of organising a co-operative among a group of farmers. Numerous experiments have been made in recent times with machinery pools, bulk buying of seeds and fertilisers and co-operative transport of milk to the local creameries, but many of these experiments failed because proper advice and guidance was not available or, if so, the farmers did not know where to get it. I accept what is a basic principle of co-operation, that there can be no co-operation without education and I believe it is vitally important and a matter of urgency that there should be in each county at least one agricultural adviser who has received training in the promotion and organisation of co-operation among farmers.

Only a few weeks ago, nine people in my parish agreed to purchase two silage harvesters under the recent subsidy scheme. Five of them had tractors; four had not; and when it came to a round-table discussion on how the cost of purchase and operation could be worked out equitably among them, it could not be done. I was asked to help and I could not solve the problem. Finally, I approached a certain Dublin university professor who very kindly agreed to go down there and he spent four hours working out the actual details. That should not be necessary. I see no reason why there could not be a specialised service available locally. If we accept that co-operation is good and if we want to apply it at farm level, we must provide advice, and the only way to do that is to select one or two existing agricultural advisers in each county, send them abroad for six months or so and give them full training in all aspects of co-operation. In addition, I believe the Agricultural Institute could pay a little more attention to this question of co-operation at farm level. A certain amount of advice from the Institute is available, but it should now proceed to carry out a number of pilot schemes.

I should like, at the outset, to congratulate heartily the Fine Gael Party on having at long last thrown over the agricultural policy of their leader. I am glad of that. Unfortunately, the almost irreparable damage done by him during the period he was Minister for Agriculture will take a very long time to remedy and it will be a very long time before the agricultural community recover from it.

Deputy Donegan started today by looking for an improved price for barley. He also had the neck to speak of wheat. I suggest to him that he examine the statements made by his leader on these matters and see what his policy was in regard to wheat, barley and beet. Deputy O'Donnell can study him also on milk.

In 1948 Deputy Dillon arrived here with a flourish of trumpets to tell us what he was going to do for agriculture. He started off on the men who were so foolish as to mine their lands, producing something that was not required, namely, wheat. He said that, if they continued to grow wheat, they would grow it at his price, and he immediately cut the price of wheat by £8 per ton. That was the first shot.

He came along then and he reduced the price of barley from £24 a ton to £19. I do not blame him because every man, I suppose, looks after his own corner, and Deputy Dillon represents the constituency of Monaghan, and we must remember that not so long ago he had a question to the Minister for Agriculture asking if we were going to subsidise the transfer of barley from Cork to Monaghan for the benefit of the gentleman farmers there, who refused to carry out his policy of growing barley and walking it off the land, but were dependent upon the policy implemented by Deputy Dillon, the policy of forcing the growing of barley at an uneconomic price on the tillage farmers in the south and the tillage farmers in the County Louth as well.

As I said, the "Dillon Blight" is on us yet. Costs have increased a great deal since 1948, but that particular policy still remains, and the price of feeding barley is still only £19 per ton.

Deputy O'Donnell sermonises at length and expresses his anxiety, with which I entirely agree, with regard to a better price for milk. However, he alluded to his leader and the last little stick his leader has left, the free loan of £1,000 to the farmer. The farmers would appreciate far more a decent price for what they produce, and to hell with loans. The policy with regard to milk enunciated by Deputy O'Donnell's leader was a "bob" a gallon for five years, and he would guarantee the "bob". Deputy O'Donnell was elected here by the creamery milk producers of Limerick but he apparently agrees with his leader on the last prop his leader has left. What good would a loan of £1,000 be if the farmers were getting only a "bob" a gallon for their milk for five years?

The number of milch cows, due to the fact that Deputy Dillon's "bob" a gallon was not accepted, has increased from 1,186,000 in 1956 to 1,322,000 in 1963, an increase of 140,000. That increase came about before the price of milk was increased recently by 2d. The total number of cattle today as compared with the famous days when Deputy Dillon was in office has gone up by practically 350,000. That is a pretty hefty increase. We hope it will continue. We believe it will.

The acreage of wheat has gone down due to artificial depression, due to a definite programme laid down. When you want to get rid of a thing, then go at it. The Flour Millers Association worked wholeheartedly in an endeavour to get rid of Irish wheat so that they would be free to import foreign wheat. They were helped by the famous statement made by the Leader of the Opposition on the bread produced from Irish wheat. You take it in your hands, he said, and you squeeze it and you tease the water out of it, and then you look at it to decide whether it is boot polish or bread and, if it is boot polish, you apply it to your boots and shoes and, if it is bread, you try to masticate it if you are fit.

That was the present leader of the Opposition and the man whom those people thought fit to entrust with the agricultural policy of this country for two different terms. That was the public pronouncement made in this Chamber by that person. It is in the Official Report for anyone to read. Nearly as bad was the shadow Minister's statement that 75 per cent of the milk at the creameries was unfit for processing into anything but butter because it was too dirty. That was the statement made by Deputy Donegan in this House, as shadow Minister—the Lord between us and harm—for Agriculture. Will Deputies ever try to get something into their heads besides sawdust?

There is a different position as regards tillage. The acreage of tillage has gone down by 104,000 acres since 1956, mainly, or a large proportion of it, due to the reduction in the acreage of wheat. I will explain the reason for that. It is because there is a definite policy laid out by an organisation that has at its command every type of machine that could be brought in here to wreck the production of wheat by the Irish farmer. That organisation should have been taken over by the State long ago and nationalised. That would be the only cure for such an anti-national team. I am very glad that at last the National Farmers Association who accepted the carrot have now rejected it.

There is a reduction in oats. I well remember seeing that about £150,000 was paid by the Department of Agriculture in 1948-49 for plastering every blank wall in this country with slogans about growing oats and spuds. I well remember Deputies who supported that Government getting up here afterwards and preaching a tale of woe, that the price of oats in their constituencies was less than £5 a ton, that oats was being sold at less than £5 a ton. In order to put some kind of floor under oats at that time, that unfortunate leader had to be sent to America whilst Deputy Mulcahy, who took his place, put some kind of floor under oats, so that farmers could, at least, get rid of it.

Deputy Donegan is looking for oats again today. I have not heard anything about the spuds yet. We are up against the factor to which Deputy Gibbons alluded today, the dread of farmers of overproduction. Who is to blame them, having regard to the position in regard to wheat and when they know that when the old hen lays an extra egg in the week, the price of eggs drops and there is all the rest of the long sad story?

In 1947 the organisation of which I have the honour to be a member endeavoured to change that position as regards the agricultural community. We then brought in, with the co-operation and assistance of the best industrial body in this country, namely, the Irish Sugar Company, a costings scheme for beet. Four hundred farmers took part in that costings scheme. They were farmers in different circumstances and farming different types of land. The results of that costings scheme are used to fix the price of beet, even this year, and anyone looking at this table will see that the acreage of sugar beet went up from 58,900 in 1956, to 88,300 last year, and that despite the fact that some idiot went over to Britain and made an agreement with Britain for a levy of £16 a ton on our sugar and, instead of getting the hot boot out, I suppose he was promoted.

These are facts. Our position as regards agriculture is healthy and good, and I believe that that can continue. Unfortunately, there are things happening that it is too late to remedy. It is nearly ten years since I stood up in this House and advocated a minimum wage for agricultural labourers of £10 a week. What has happened since? The agricultural labourer today requires as much skill as and, in fact, far more skill than any industrial worker. The result of the manner in which things are being worked is that the workers have gone to industry and have left the farmers high and dry. That is why I say that the steps being taken to hold the existing population on the land are rather late. The position must be watched and action must be taken.

I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Barr
Roinn