Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 24 Nov 1964

Vol. 213 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Housing (Gaeltacht) (Amendment) Bill, 1964: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Aire na Gaeltachta (Mr. Moran)

Tairgim go léifear an Bille don Dara hUair anois.

Tá an Bille seo á thabhairt isteach chun Achtanna na dTithe (Gaeltacht), 1929 go 1959, a leasú agus a leathnú agus is é príomh-aidhm an Bhille na deontais éagsúla atá ar fáil faoi na hAchtanna sin a mhéadú. Is mithid na deontais a ardú le go bhféadfaidh muintir na Gaeltachta leanúint ar aghaidh leis an obair tithíochta atá riachtanach.

Tá obair mhór déanta cheana faoi na hAchtanna seo chun caighdeán na dtithe sa Ghaeltacht a fheabhsú ach tá go leor le déanamh fós sarar féidir bheith sásta. I dteannta caighdeán maith cónaithe a chur ar fáil do mhuintir na Gaeltachta féin, tá sé riachtanach go mbeidh ar chumas na ndaoine freastal ar an líon cuairteoirí a bhíonn, agus a bheidh feasta, ag teacht chun na Gaeltachta ag foghlaim na Gaeilge.

Tabharfar faoi deara go bhfuiltear ar intinn na deontais mhéadaithe a luaitear sa Bhille a íoc amhail ó thosach Dheireadh Fómhair, 1963. Is eol don Teach, ní foláir, go bhfuil deontais tithíochta na Roinne Rialtais Áitiúil ardaithe ón dáta céanna.

Tá ar intinn agam leis an mBille seo freisin feabhas a chur ar Scéim na Seallaí Saoire a tugadh isteach don chéad uair nuair a ritheadh Acht na dTithe (Gaeltacht), 1959. Cuimhneoidh na Teachtaí go raibh dhá chuspóir romhainn nuair a cuireadh tús leis an scéim sin, mar atá, saoráidí oiriúnacha cónaithe a chur ar fáil do chuairteoirí samhraidh ar mhian leo tréimhse saoire a chaitheamh sa Ghaeltacht agus deis ioncaim a sholáthar do na daoine sa Ghaeltacht a dhéanfadh freastal ar na cuairteoirí sin. Is trua liom nár éirigh leis an scéim chomh maith agus a bhíomar ag súil leis ag an am sin. Is cosúil gur mheas na daoine go raibh an deontas le haghaidh sealla saoire ro-bheag i gcomórtas le deontais eile na Roinne. Ar an ábhar sin, tá i gceist sa Bhille seo an deontas sin a mhéadú de 50% agus tá súil agam go mealfaidh sé sin tuilleadh daoine sa Ghaeltacht chun seallaí saoire a thógáil.

Ag an am céanna, ceapaim anois go mba mhaith an rud é foráil nua a chur isteach sna hAchtanna chun a chur ar chumas dream daoine roinnt seallaí saoire a thógáil sa Ghaeltacht chun saoráidí cónaithe a chur ar fáil do chuairteoirí a bheadh ag foghlaim Gaeilge nó ag cur feabhais ar a gcuid Gaeilge. Fé mar is eol don Teach, tá méadú an-mhór tagtha le roinnt bhlian anuas ar líon na bhfoghlaimeoirí Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht, go háirithe daltaí scoile a théann ann faoi scéim eile atá á riaradh ag mo Roinnse. Tá gá anois le tuilleadh socruithe cónaithe do na cuairteoirí sin agus sílim gur fiú Scéim na Seallaí Saoire a úsáid chuige sin.

Tá ar intinn agam mar sin deontais a cheadú do choistí a bheadh aitheanta agam agus a bheadh sásta roinnt seallaí saoire a thógáil le chéile sa Ghaeltacht. Bheadh i gceist agam an scéim seo a riaradh ar an mbealach céanna agus a oibrítear scéim na mbrúnna faoi na hAchtanna, agus ní tabharfaí aitheantas d'aon choiste faoin scéim muna mbeifí sásta go mbeadh leas na Gaeilge mar chuspóir acu. Féadfaidh coistí lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht cur isteach ar dheontas faoin gcuid sin den Bhille agus bheadh fonn orm cuidiú le coistí iontaofa ar fud na tíre chun seallaí saoire a thógáil sa Ghaeltacht. Ní cuirfear teorainn leis an méid seallaí a thógfaidh coiste ar bith agus beidh an deontas iníoctha i leith gach sealla a ceadófar. Tá súil agam go gcuirfidh eagrais Ghaeilge, agus dreamanna eile a mbíonn baint acu le foghlaimeoirí a chur chun na Gaeltachta, suim sa scéim seo agus go mbainfidh siad feidhm as an gcúnamh ar mhaithe leis an nGaeilge agus leis an nGaeltacht.

Tá socrú á dhéanamh sa Bhille seo freisin chun a chur ar chumas mo Roinn-se an dara deontas tógála nó feabhsúcháin a dhiúltú i gcás duine a fuair deontas den tsort sin cheana i leith tí cónaithe eile, má fheictear gur ceart é sin a dhéanamh. Ina thaobh sin, níl uaim ach a rá gurb é príomhchuspóir Achtanna na dTithe (Gaeltacht) ná cóir cónaithe na ndaoine sa Ghaeltacht a fheabhsú. Le tamall anuas tarlaíonn corr-chás anseo is ansiúd ina bhfaigheann duine deontas chun teach nua a thógáil nó chun feabhas a chur ar a theach cónaithe agus go ndíolann an duine sin an teach faoin tuaith a cheannach le isteach ar dheontas eile. Mar atá ráite agam níl ach corr-chás i gceist agus ní chuirfeadh sé as dom marach baol a bheith ann go mbeadh na tithe á ndíol le daoine a bheadh ar bheagán Gaeilge agus a mbeadh fonn orthu teach faoin tuaith a cheannach le haghaidh saoire. Cuirfidh an Bille ar mo chumas srian a chur le imeachtaí mar seo más léir gur gá é.

Sin iad príomh-aidhmeanna agus príomhfhorálacha an Bhille seo. Cuirim faoi bhráid an Tí é lena bhreithniú agus molaim go nglacfar leis. Mar a dubhras i dtosach, déanfaidh an Bille seo na deontais éagsúla a mhéadú. Ní amháin go mbeidh na deontais ó Roinn na Gaeltachta níos aoirde ná mar a bhí ach beidh siad i bhfad níos mó ná deontais na Roinne Rialtais Áitiúil.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Cuirim fáilte roimh an mBille acht sílim nach dtéann sé fada go leor. Tá sé anois timpeall 35 bliain ó bhí an chéad Bhille dTithe (Gaeltacht) againn agus is oth liom a chloisint ón Aire go bhfuil mórán eile le déanamh i dtaobh tógáil tí san nGaeltacht. Táimíd go léir ar aon aigne go bhfuil an Ghaeltacht ag dul i laghad agus go bhfuil líon na ndaoine ag laghdú go mór ann. Ní dóigh liom go mbeadh sé thar ár gcumas sa Teach seo tithe oiriúnacha do chur ar fáil do na daoine atá fágtha san nGaeltacht. Do réir Bille a ritheadh le déanaí, tugadh cead d'údaráis áitiúla chun tithe do thógaint saor in aisce d'fheilmeirí atá fé £5 luacháil dhlí na mbocht. Mar sin, ba chóir go mbeimís i ndon tithe do thógaint saor in aisce don líon beag daoine atá ag maireachtáil go fóill san nGaeltacht agus ligint dóibh an caipiteal a aisíoch sa chíos.

Tugaim faoi deara go bhfuil údarás ag coistí seallaí a thógaint san nGaeltacht. Ach cén fá go gcuirtear teora leis an méid seallaí a thógfadh duine príobháideach? Tá súil agam nach gceadófar cearta dílsithe a phréamhú san nGaeltacht faoin alt seo.

Arís, ní fíor a rá go dtugann na h-údaráis áitiúla deontas ar aon mhéid leis an méid a thugann Roinn na Gaeltachta mar tá a fhios againn go léir nach féidir le h-aon chlann maireachtáil go cuí san nGaeltacht gan imeacht leo chun obair bhreise d'fháil ar an gcoigríoch. Is trua go n-áirítear maoin na ndaoine sin maidir leis an deontas atá le h-íoc ag na h-údaráis áitiúla.

In ainneoin an méid atá ráite agam, cuirim fáilte roimh an mBille seo ach, fé mar adubhairt mé i dtosach, tá mé in amhras go dtéann sé fada go leor. An dtéann deontas an lae inniu níos faide i gcostas tógáil tí san nGaeltacht ná an deontas a tugadh i dtosach báire i mbliain 1929?

Mr. Geoghegan

Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh Bhille den tsaghas seo chun deontais a thabhairt le h-aghaidh tógáil tí agus seallaí sa Ghaeltacht. D'éist mé leis an méid adubhairt an Teachta O'Donnell. Is ceart a rá go raibh Aire le h-aghaidh na Gaeltachta ann nuair a bhí an Chomh-Rialtas i gcomhacht, trath a raibh an Teachta O'Donnell ina Aire Rialtais Áitiúil. An tAire Gaeltachta a bhí ann an uair sin, dealbh a bhí ann. Níor dhein sé tada faoi scéal na dtí. Anois, tá an Teachta ag clamhsán nach dtéann an Bille seo fada go leor.

Faoin mBille seo, gheobhfaidh duine sa Ghaeltacht £550 ó Roinn na Gaeltachta agus annsan, má thugann an túdarás áitiúil punt ar phunt, beidh deontas suas le £1,100 le fáil le h-aghaidh teach gcúig seomraí. Tá an deontas £1,100 sin i bhfad níos aoirde anois sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht ná mar a bhí sé agus is dual do mhuintir na h-áite sin é. Tá gá mór leis mar tá i bhfad níos mó daoine óga ag tabhairt cuairt ar an nGaeltacht anois chun an Ghaeilge d'fhoghlaim ná riamh. Tré árdú an deontais, is féidir uisce, agus áiseanna eile a chur ar fáil ins na tithe. Sílim gur bhain muintir na Gaeltachta usáid as na scéimeanna nua seo níos túisce le déannaí ná ins na blianta a ghabh tharainn. Go dtí le déannaí, bhí, sé andheacair ag muintir na Fíor-Ghaeltachta nach raibh aon airgead ná aon mhaoin acu, dul isteach i siopa in áit ar bith agus áiseanna d'fháil. Anois, tá árdú ar an deontas agus beidh na siopadóirí cinnte go mbeidh an t-airgead le fáil agus rachfaidh na scéimeanna ar aghaidh níos taipiúla.

Molaim an tAire as ucht an Bhille agus na hoibre seo agus tá súil agam go rachfaidh an obair chun chinn bliain i ndhiaidh bliana.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I have only just now got a copy of the Minister's Bill. I am interested in the section dealing with the erection of chalets in Gaeltacht areas. I should like the Minister to tell us what type of committee would qualify for a grant in this connection. In the South-West Cork constituency, we have the Gaeltacht in the Ballyvourney district which many children from outlying areas visit each year to learn or improve their knowledge of Irish. The people of that area are giving great help to such children to acquire a fluent knowledge of the language. The fact that children come in such numbers helps the economy of the district and I feel sure that the people of that area would be anxious to provide additional accommodation, if such grants were available to enable them to do so. It is for that reason that I am anxious to know from the Minister what kind of group would qualify for such grants. Would the local guild of Muintir na Tíre, for example, or a development committee or a voluntary organisation, qualify?

In addition, it is a scheme that could be utilised on the island of Cape Clear which is only seven miles from my home. Each year a number of visitors go there during the summer months. There is probably no part of the country where a knowledge of Irish can be acquired as easily as it can be on Cape Clear, particularly in the eastern part of that island. I should be interested in hearing the Minister detail the system under which such grants can be obtained, because we are now in the latter part of the year, and possibly a number of people in the Gaeltacht areas would be interested in the grants. I agree it is a great idea to provide this accommodation because the only way in which a fluent knowledge of the Irish language can be acquired is by going to the districts where it is the spoken language. We all agree that these districts should get all assistance possible. In view of the help such districts are to the language and the help they are to the local economy, I support this measure wholeheartedly.

Mr. Leneghan

I welcome the Bill so far as it goes, but it occurs to me in view of the fact that it is aimed at dealing with housing conditions in the poorer areas, where building costs are even higher than they are in the richer areas, the Bill should have gone further and given a more substantial increase. However, it is a step in the right direction. I want to make the point that the method of testing people's knowledge of Irish does not engender a love for the language, because it often happens that the family with the least Irish may come out best. It oftens happens that children from neighbouring localities go to different schools and on many occasions, as the Minister knows, the rule is enforced that unless the children of the family are getting the £5 grant for speaking Irish, the family will not get a housing grant. The Minister should remember that in many cases it is the fault, not of the children, but of the people in the schools who will not send them to be examined to get this Irish grant. The Minister should take steps to ensure that so long as Irish is spoken in the household, this grant is paid. The £5 grant should also be very carefully examined.

Another point is that the people who come to us as inspectors of Irish speak some kind of lingo they learned around Mullingar, and they have the audacity to say that the people in the West do not know Irish. They do not know what language we are talking, and we do not know what language they are talking. I think when a man is sent to an area as an inspector, he should be able to speak the dialect of that area. Even a Donegal man would find it difficult in my area and that is bad enough, but then you have a man talking some kind of ráiméis, that can cause considerable trouble and has caused considerable trouble in the past. In the appointment of inspectors, the question of the local dialect should be taken into account.

When an inspector goes to a house where there are three or four children under the age of five or six years, those children will not talk to any stranger. Any sane man knows that, and an inspector who says they cannot talk Irish is talking through his hat. He does not know whether they can speak Irish, English, Greek, Latin or Yiddish. I know that when an appeal is made, the Minister is most reasonable, but some inspectors have not been reasonable, and I should like the Minister to look into the matter.

Mr. Moran

Beidh rud éigin le rá agam ar ball i dtaobh an méid adúirt an Teachta Ó Domhnaill. For Deputy Murphy's benefit, here is part of what I said in Irish. I said: "I propose to sanction grants to approved committees who would be prepared to erect numbers of chalets in the Gaeltacht. It is intended to operate this in the same manner as the existing scheme for hostels under the Acts, and a committee would not be approved for the purposes of the scheme unless it clearly aimed at the advancement of the Irish language. Committees outside the Gaeltacht may apply for grants under this section of the Bill, and I would be glad to help trustworthy committees throughout the country to erect holiday chalets in the Gaeltacht. No limit will be placed on the number of chalets which any committee may erect and the grant will be payable in respect of every chalet sanctioned. I hope that Irish language organisations, and other groups who are associated with the sending of students to the Gaeltacht, will be interested in this scheme and will avail themselves of it for the benefit of the language and of the Gaeltacht."

I want to say also for Deputy Murphy's benefit that I have no intention of bringing Billy Butlin to the Gaeltacht unless he is prepared to learn Irish, and unless his organisation are prepared to promote the Irish language there. When I originally introduced grants for chalets in the Gaeltacht, I had certain definite objectives in mind. I am sorry to say the scheme was not as successful as I had hoped it would be. Perhaps that was the fault of some of those organisations that should have made better use of the provisions of the previous Housing (Gaeltacht) Act. I am glad to say that now there is an increasing demand for these chalets. We have at present 16 applications for grants for chalets which are being built. Applications were slow to start. They went well in Donegal.

A great thing about these chalets in the Gaeltacht is that they provide a market for the small local man to supply milk, vegetables and other things to the people who come to the chalets. I think this chalet scheme should be much more widely availed of in the Gaeltacht areas. Perhaps under the original Act the grants were not big enough, and perhaps they were too restrictive. Under this Bill we propose to give these new higher grants, and we also propose to make them available to organisations outside the Gaeltacht areas, so that it will be possible for bodies like Gael Linn, and other friends of the language, to go to a Gaeltacht area and enter into an agreement with the local farmers to take some land near the sea and to have chalets erected.

So long as we are satisfied with the aims of these bodies, we will sanction the grants. It is necessary for us to have that power because this could be a ready-made opportunity for people in the cities and elsewhere who have no interest in the language to take advantage of the scheme to erect chalets or seaside residences for summer holidays. We are providing that we must be satisfied about the intentions of these people in the very same way as we provided under the former Act that we should be satisfied about the intentions of the committees to erect bruanna for which they could get grants up to £5,000.

The amount of money made by people who have erected some of these chalets by letting them during the summer months has been fantastic. The income that would be available from chalets, if our people in the Gaeltacht areas generally took advantage of the scheme, would be revolutionary in relation to their ordinary caighdeán or their ordinary living standards. This, in my view, is one of the easiest and best ways to raise the economic income of people living in Gaeltacht areas, particularly those near the seas. By virtue of their location the vast majority of the Gaeltacht areas are well situated from the point of view of scenic amenities and are close to the sea. I feel enough use was not made of the provisions of the previous Act under which the erection of chalets could be undertaken by people in the Gaeltacht.

As a result of the increased grants made available by the present Bill there will probably be a vast expansion in the applications from the people in the Gaeltacht who can avail of these grants to help themselves and to help people outside who want to come to the Gaeltacht for the purpose of increasing their knowledge of the Irish language or perfecting their blas. There will be a new inducement there and we expect much grater activity under this amending provision.

I can well understand Deputy Leneghan's difficulty because, when the Order was made defining the limits of the Gaeltacht area—it was brought in by a then colleague of his in North Mayo—certain areas were written in that should not have been included. Areas which were English speaking were brought in under that Order for political purposes. These areas should have been excluded under the definitions laid down; that is what gave rise to difficulties in North Mayo. Generally speaking, in the Gaeltacht areas, if there is difficulty about Scéim an Cúig Phúnt or any other Gaeltacht scheme and if there is a suggestion as Deputy Leneghan said, that some inspectors with a southern blas are sent in who do not understand western Irish, I send in an inspector from my own Department to ensure that the people are not wrongfully deprived of the benefits of Scéim an Cúig Phúnt or any other Deontas that is available. When representations are made to me and I am satisfied there is a just cause for it, I have a separate inspection made by a new inspector.

I should like Deputies to appreciate that this particular scheme is judged by inspectors from the Department of Education and not by inspectors from my Department. Therefore, it cannot be suggested that we are in any way trying to differentiate between one type of dialect and another. It is sufficient to say, as I have already said, that, if we think there is difficulty about blas and so on— though I do not think there is generally much difficulty in this field—we send a separate inspector. It is true there are difficulties with the blas as between different parts of the country but that is true in every country. Indeed, I always think of my first visit to Kilcar factory in Donegal, where Deputy P. O'Donnell comes from. On hearing the Donegal blas for the first time, I had great difficulty with it. As against that I should like to quote a story about an occasion once when I was in the tube at Piccadilly Circus in London. There was an official beside me speaking English with a Cockney accent and I could not understand what he was trying to say to me. That is a difficulty of language. By and large there is not such a great difficulty between north, south, east, and west here in our own language. There are some local colloquialisms which one has to get used to but, generally speaking, a native speaker from Connemara will understand what native speakers from Donegal are saying once he gets used to the sharp accent of Donegal.

This Bill very substantially increases the housing grants, improvements grants, water grants, bathroom grants and every type of grant payable under the Gaeltacht Housing Acts. There is in the higher group of housing grants a very substantial difference between the new grants payable by the Minister for Local Government and the grants payable by Roinn na Gaeltachta. For instance, under this Bill there will be payable, for a five-roomed house in the Gaeltacht, a grant up to £100 more than is payable under the new Local Government scale; that is a very substantial difference. There has always been a differential and it is now increased as between the ordinary grants paid in the rest of the State and the grants payable for the Gaeltacht areas. It is very important that we should maintain the differential as between the Gaeltacht areas and the rest of the country. It is important that we should maintain these special grants now being provided to enable the people of the Gaeltacht to take full advantage of the tourist business by improving their houses. We are giving them inspiration and incentives to go ahead: those who have not already taken advantage of the special housing legislation for the Gaeltacht can make full use of these new grants.

Sílim gur ceart don Teachta O'Donnell bheith sásta leis na deontais tithíochta atá anseo, agus sílim go bhfuil gach duine ar gach taobh den Teach an-shásta le cuspóir an Bhille seo.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I should be glad if the Minister would define "approved committee".

Mr. Moran

It is loosely defined under the Acts. It is a committee whose objective we are satisfied is to further the Irish language. I will have the ultimate responsibility to approve of any such committee in case of doubt.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Would a Muintir na Tíre Guild qualify?

Mr. Moran

Of course. I would be delighted to have a local Muintir na Tíre Guild sponsoring a chalet in the Gaeltacht area.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Do I understand the Minister to say that the chalets must be located adjacent to the sea?

Mr. Moran

I have not said that at all. I have said that in many Gaeltacht areas the sea is there as an added attraction.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

In West Cork the main Gaeltacht areas are removed from the sea.

Mr. Moran

There are many other amenities there which may be as attractive as the sea.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining stages today.