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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 1 Jun 1965

Vol. 216 No. 1

Committee on Finance. - Vote 40—Industry and Commerce (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £4,044,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1966, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of sundry Grants-in-Aid.

In the little Estimate debate we had towards the end of the main debate, Deputy Hogan expressed his concern about the position of the flour milling industry and referred in particular to the possibility that a flour mill in the town of Cahir might close down. I do not think I need assure the Deputy that I could not be indifferent, as he thought I might be, to the prospect of people losing their jobs. The fact is that I must face the realities of the situation. In the first place, I want to make it clear that neither I nor anybody else could have given the Irish Flour Millers Association power to embark on what he described as "a process of integration which will lead to a monopoly."

For many years now there has been a continuous decline in the consumption of flour. The flour millers formed an adaptation council and prepared a voluntary scheme of rationalisation under which compensation would be payable to any miller opting to cease production, and of course to his employees for the loss of their employment. Between 1962 and 1963 eight mills availed of that voluntary scheme and ceased production. Even with these closures, a survey of the flour milling industry showed in March, 1964 that the production capacity of our mills is 50 per cent above our requirements. It is possible that further mills may avail of the scheme and cease production.

The Deputy asked at what stage would I intervene. I think he means that I would at some stage come in and stop mills from closing down. I explained already to the Deputy and the House in answer to parliamentary questions that I am not in a position to require a mill to remain in operation. The conditions leading to the closure of the mills I have mentioned were not created by the Irish Flour Millers Association or by anybody else. Their adaptation council is not forcing any mill to close. As I said, the rationalisation scheme is a voluntary one and as such the miller avails of the scheme which is aimed at adapting this industry to the realities of the situation. I cannot see how I could step in and tell the adaptation council that they must stop trying to face up to the realities of the situation. This problem is being faced up to in the only way it can. I deplore the loss of employment in this industry but a decision had to be made. I am attempting in the short time I intend to take this afternoon to try to explain to the Deputies what has happened in this situation.

Before the Minister gets away from this adaptation plan, would he tell us what provision the millers made to compensate the redundant workers as well as the redundant millowners?

They have provided for compensation for loss of employment to each worker on a voluntary basis among themselves.

Is the Minister not in a position to give particulars of this scheme?

I am not a party to this scheme. It is a completely voluntary one.

Is it a reasonable proposal?

It is agreed on among themselves.

Does the Minister consider it is reasonable compensation to redundant workers?

The question of passing judgment by me or my predecessor does not arise in this voluntary arrangement. My predecessor was informed of it by the millers.

The Minister is using it as an argument in favour of saying that everything is all right.

No. The argument in favour of closing down is that we have 50 per cent more capacity than our requirements because of the drop in the use of flour.

The Minister ought to be concerned about redundancy.

I am very concerned about it but I am also concerned that this House should face up to the realities of the situation.

Does the Minister consider this is a reasonable sort of scheme?

Does it measure up to the Minister's ideal?

The alternative is to have no scheme. Over-capacity was there and that meant there would have to be unemployment anyway. The alternative to unemployment was this adaptation scheme which makes provision for compensation. It is the best of bad alternatives and has been forced on us by reduction in the consumption of flour.

(South Tipperary:) How is the compensation arranged? Is it a take it or leave it scheme?

It is arranged on a voluntary basis among the employers.

(South Tipperary:) Do the employees come into it?

They are in it.

Is this an agreed scheme between the employees and the employers?

It is an agreed scheme for voluntary compensation. There was no need for my views on this matter. The alternative was to have no scheme and steady closing down of mills. If the House thinks the alternative was to produce more flour, they are wrong. Deputies must face up to the fact that the consumption of flour is continuously dropping. The adaptation council have informed me of provision for compensation for workers who are redundant. I consider it is a good thing to have such schemes.

(South Tipperary:) Is the capacity of mills not increased by Government grants?

It is not increased capacity but a drop in the consumption of flour which is the cause of this redundancy.

It is dear; that is why.

It is because of some monopolies.

It is not. You have to face the facts.

It is because of monoplies.

They are eating meat instead.

(Interruptions.)

The Minister should be allowed to proceed.

The Minister said he wanted to deal with this provision.

The only reason I am dealing with it is that Deputy Hogan raised the matter and also that a number of questions were postponed to-day, not through any fault of mine. I should like the House to face the fact that it is because of the drop in the consumption of flour this redundancy has occurred.

Would the Minister agree that if the flour millers were making a good thing as the result of such a scheme, all his arguments would founder? Is that not a fair question?

I am informed the adaptation scheme does not force any mill out of production.

Would the Minister not agree, if it were the mills who are making money as a result of this scheme?

This is a voluntary scheme.

I do not mind how voluntary it is but if it is a scheme made by the heads of industry whereby it may compel the closing down of mills, that is wrong. I believe that if this were so, there is evidence of something being wrong in such a scheme.

It is a voluntary scheme. As I said, the alternative was to have no scheme at all.

Even if there is no evidence to show that closing down is necessary?

This is a voluntary scheme to provide compensation for redundant workers.

If the employer gains from such a scheme——

(Interruptions.)

The Minister should be allowed to make his speech.

Those are the arguments of Carnegie, Rockefeller and others in the nineteenth century.

This does not look like the closing stages of a debate.

How is the compensation financed?

It is done in the industry.

You bet it is and, boy, will they make money out of it.

The Minister should be allowed to speak without interruption.

I am sorely tempted not to raise any more hares. Deputy Sweetman asked about planning permission and referred to an industry which found itself slowed down in its operation or going into operation because of difficulties with the local authorities. I am informed that planning permission is normally got. Services are given by the architect engaged by the industrialist. Before the grant is paid by Foras Tionscal, they require planning permission to be obtained. The planning permission was in fact obtained in the case of the factory referred to by the Deputy. The problem arose, subsequently, in relation to the installation of an effluent plant. I gather that problem has been settled.

Has it been completely settled?

There was no limitation put on the information I got. There was no question of the degree of settlement.

The last matter I want to refer to is something which was dealt with last year and I did not think it would be necessary to deal with it again. Deputy Ryan made some allegations about a firm producing obscene literature. I am sure he had good reason for feeling upset about this matter. He felt that it was particularly to be deplored that this firm had received a grant from An Foras Tionscal. As a result of inquiries made, I understand that apart from the three books printed at the beginning by this firm, their work is entirely devoted to mathematical and scientific publications, as well as dictionaries and a limited amount of classical novels and other works in specially large type for partially blind people. The three books to which I have referred as not belonging to these categories, and which included the book referred to by Deputy Ryan, were produced when the firm were going into operation and starting production and requested books from publishers as a training process for their set up.

They might have got a shock.

One of the books, in fact, was the book mentioned by Deputy Ryan but it is not to be taken as representative of the product of the firm.

I welcome the setting-up of the particular industry. I am satisfied that the firm is a very reputable one and gives valuable employment.

Has the Minister anything to say about the anthracite industry?

I explained several times to the Dáil that the problems in the anthracite industry are mainly problems of marketing which fall to be dealt with by the Minister for Transport and Power. There are other problems on which I am not yet in a position to speak. I am awaiting some reports. However, the main problem which has come to a head now and affects most of the mines is one of marketing.

That is the immediate problem.

That is the immediate problem. Other problems relating to production arise in one mine. I am dealing with that but I am not in a position to make a statement on it at the moment.

Vote put and agreed to.
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