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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 2 Jun 1965

Vol. 216 No. 2

Committee on Finance. - Vote 48—Health (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That a sum not exceeding £11,223,300 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1966, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Health (including Oifig and Ard-Chláraitheora), and certain Services administered by that Office, including Grants to Local Authorities, miscellaneous Grants and a Grant-in-Aid.

When progress was reported last night, I was referring to the proposals mentioned by Deputy T.F. O'Higgins for financing general medical services by insurance. I have since looked at reports of earlier references by the Deputy and I am clear now in my mind as to their scope. Only a small fraction of health expenditure, as a whole, would, it seems, be met by insurance contributions under the proposals and these contributions would be additional to the rates and taxes by which most of the costs would be met. I may be wrong, but there seemed to me to be a conflict between what Deputy Declan Costello said on this point and what Deputy T.F. O'Higgins has said on it. Deputy Costello seemed to envisage insurance contributions meeting the cost of free hospital services.

The House will be aware that the Government are not convinced that insurance contributions would be a desirable means to finance health services and there seem to me to be obvious difficulties, for example, in the application of an insurance scheme to farmers and self-employed people. However, in my general review, all ways of financing services must be looked at. I will, therefore, go very fully into the pros and cons of every idea for financing health services which has been suggested in recent years, as, indeed, I will for all constructive proposals for improvements in the services. As I told Deputy Corish last night, when I eventually come along here with proposals, they will not necessarily be cut and dried. There will be a certain amount of elasticity attached to them and if constructive suggestions come from all parts of the House, I am quite prepared to incorporate them in the final scheme or plan.

Many such ideas and a number of criticisms of the present services were put forward in yesterday's debate. I do not wish to detain the House by referring to each of these today as most of them relate to points which are being considered in my general review but what was said has been very carefully noted in my Department. I think there will be general agreement that an expression of my views on these points would be premature at this stage.

I would not like the House to infer from what I have said that I would acquiesce in a point of view that would decry the present services as being out of date and insufficient. Much progress has been achieved up to now by successive Fianna Fáil Governments. There was criticism last night that such was not the case. The Health Acts of 1947 and 1953 made many improvements possible and under these and several other Acts, there has been much progress. This is evidenced by the fact that the health expenditure for this year is expected to be over five times what it was in 1947-48.

Mr. Tully

The cost of living has gone up.

Mr. O'Malley

Even allowing for that, this represents a very real expansion in many fields. There is one point in a particular service which I would like to mention before I conclude. It has been very recently brought to my notice that the mass X-ray service in Cork has, for all practicable purposes, ceased since November, 1962. I do not propose to go into detail as to why this has occurred but I regard the absence of this service in Cork as a very serious setback to the efforts being made against tuberculosis as a hazard to the health of our people. I can assure the House that the resumption of this service will engage my immedate attention.

I would like again to thank the House for the constructive contributions made in yesterday's debate and to thank the Deputies for their expression of personal goodwill to me. I hope that it will not be too long before there is an opportunity for a wider debate on the further development of the health services but Deputies will realise that our examination of the system, if it is to be complete and satisfactory to all those whose interests each of us has at heart, must necessarily take a little while longer. The field to be covered is not only the services clearly within my control, as I feel there may be some scope for further examination and better arrangements—I discussed this with Mr. Boland, the Minister for Social Welfare—between my Department and the Department of Social Welfare in the operation of services on the borderline between Social Welfare and Health. I have in mind, in particular, the co-ordination of services for the aged.

The Minister will not make him a Parliamentary Secretary again?

Mr. O'Malley

I have in mind the co-ordination of the services for the aged, my concern about which I have already expressed to the House. Yesterday I asked the health authorities to be more humane in their dealings with applications under the various health services. I repeat that exhortation. There are many unfortunate people who do not know their rights and who, through no fault of their own, are unable to express themselves adequately. These people should be looked on with compassion and decisions should err on the side of leniency. I realise it is easy to be liberal with the taxpayers' money but it was never the intention of any legislature to interpret in a harsh manner regulations which should be based on a type of Christian elasticity. If there are some officials in local authorities who are acting harshly, I would warn them to desist.

The Minister mentioned tuberculosis and said the onus was on health authorities to see that every effort was made to prevent the spread of this disease. In view of that, would he state how it is he has no function in relation to sub-tenants in houses who are exposed to active tuberculosis? The Minister, in answer to a question raised by me, said his Department have no function in this matter. That is contrary to the principles that we should not see active tuberculosis in houses.

Mr. O'Malley

I am not too clear what the Deputy is speaking about. As I said yesterday, we must not lull ourselves into any complacency so far as tuberculosis is concerned. I would point out there were over 1,300 people in hospital beds with tuberculosis last year and in fact 366 people died from the disease. As far as the hazard of tuberculosis occurring from house situations in Dublin is concerned, the Deputy will appreciate that under the housing and letting regulations, the medical officer of health, on whose advice a city or county manager must appoint the tenant of a vacant house or a new house, has to give priority to those suffering from tuberculosis.

I have already pointed out how happy everyone was to see a further upsurge in the housing drive. I am particularly conversant with the position in Limerick where things are pretty bad under that heading. I have pointed out that there is not much point in enacting first-class legislation for new health services, if people go to sanatoria and hospitals and get the best medical advice and are cured and then return to slum or near-slum conditions. I have already expressed myself on that point. Therefore, housing and health matters, as far as tuberculosis is concerned, are complementary.

I do not think the Minister grasped——

The Deputy may not have a further discussion at this stage.

There is just one question and it is certainly a matter for the Minister for Health. We are aware of subtenants in houses who are exposed to active tuberculosis. The Minister's Department has been made aware of it. They say they have no function in the matter. This is an important point.

If the Minister has no function in the matter, it does not arise on this Estimate.

Mr. O'Malley

Who said I have no function?

I was sent a message from the Minister's Department that he has no function.

Mr. O'Malley

Maybe I will assume a function.

Vote put and agreed to.
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