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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Oct 1965

Vol. 218 No. 1

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Trade Negotiations with Britain.

1.

asked the Taoiseach if he will make a comprehensive statement regarding the present negotiations for the proposed new Anglo-Irish Trade Agreement; and if he will allow adequate time in Dáil Éireann for full debate of this proposed agreement prior to its being signed.

2.

asked the Taoiseach what is the present position concerning the trade discussions with the British Government; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

3.

asked the Taoiseach the present position in regard to free trade talks with Britain; if and when Free Trade will operate; and if he will make a general statement on Government policy in relation to the matter.

With your permission, Sir, I propose to take Questions 1, 2 and 3 together.

The trade negotiations with Britain have been taken a stage further in the discussions which have been taking place in Dublin since last Thursday between officials on both sides. A further meeting at Ministerial level is envisaged during the course of the next few weeks. Only after this meeting will full information be available on the basis for a Free Trade Area Agreement. If the outcome of these further negotiations is considered satisfactory by the Government and an Agreement is signed, it is intended that an adequate opportunity will be provided for discussion of it in Dáil Éireann before the Agreement comes into force.

Do I take it from the statement that the agreement will be signed prior to any discussion on the trade agreement by Dáil Éireann?

If there is an agreement, it will be signed.

Would the Taoiseach say on whose initiative this idea emerged? Was it the British Government's or the Irish Government's

I do not think that it would be possible at this stage to give a history of the birth of the idea.

The Taoiseach will remember that in 1960 when we were discussing the last Trade Agreement, he said he proposed to the British Government that they would aim then at a free trade agreement, which was rejected by the British Government, and the Taoiseach, I think, in the same speech said that well, that was the end of that; we should never think any more about a Free Trade Agreement.

Well, it did not prove to be so.

In view of the fact that some time will elapse before the final discussions which are envisaged take place, will the Taoiseach consider granting the Dáil an opportunity to discuss the various aspects of the free trade proposals before such agreement is signed, if agreement is reached?

I think the Deputy will appreciate that it would place those who have responsibility for conducting these negotiations in a very difficult situation if they had to conduct a public debate on the ideas under discussion before the negotiations had reached finality. In my view, it could weaken our negotiating position very much. That is why I urge that he should await the outcome of these negotiations before pressing for discussion in the Dáil on my assurance that there will be ample opportunity afforded for discussion on the earliest occasion.

Does the Taoiseach not consider that there may be certain aspects of this matter which, while probably before the Government or have been brought to the Government's attention, nevertheless are at the moment causing some concern amongst traders and the public generally and does the Taoiseach not consider that in those circumstances these aspects might be ventilated and possibly the hand of the Government strengthened in the negotiations?

Any association, trade group, manufacturers or other economic interests that have a point of view to put forward in this connection have full access to the Government for the purpose of expressing their point of view.

Could the Taoiseach say what discussions there have been with Irish industry in general or Irish industries in particular during these negotiations? Will the Taoiseach also say whether or not there were any discussions with the Irish Congress of Trade Unions in this matter?

I think the Deputy had better give notice of that question, when I will give him full particulars.

Could the Taoiseach tell me whether or not there was discussed the possibility of our becoming a member of EFTA or of the EEC in the Government's talks with the British Government?

Yes. The position of the British Government vis-á-vis EFTA did certainly arise and will arise, but as far as we are concerned no decision in that regard has been taken.

There was no discussion as to whether or not we would become a member of EFTA?

No decision has been taken.

But there was discussion?

Does the Taoiseach not appreciate that there is a widespread view that discussion in the Dáil would strengthen rather than weaken the hands of those who are doing the negotiating?

I think the Deputy must take my view on that as being the right one.

Therefore, the Taoiseach takes the entire responsibility for that.

It seems to me an impossible position in which to put members of the Government to have to defend here proposals in relation to a trade agreement not yet made when there is possibly arguing on the other side that these proposals are not good enough.

From the description of it, this particular type of trade agreement goes far beyond anything contemplated before. At least, the possibilities in it are such that it may go beyond anything contemplated before and to that extent there is widespread concern amongst industrialists and trade unionists and possibly even amongst farmers that discussion would be an advantage.

I can assure the Deputy that I am as anxious as he is to have that discussion and as soon as it is possible to do so without prejudice to our negotiations, I will arrange it.

Would the Taoiseach say—I think he was asked before— on what date it was decided that the aim should be a free trade agreement? The second question is, would the Taoiseach say whether or not there was any investigation carried out similar to the investigation carried out by the Committees of Industrial Organisation when we contemplated joining the EEC and whether or not the CIO reports arising out of our application for membership of the EEC can be related to the position in employment that may arise if we become a party to a free trade agreement?

So far as the dates for which the Deputy has asked are concerned, when I visited London after the imposition of the British special import charge and met the British Prime Minister and his colleagues, we agreed then that we should discuss the possibility of a new trade agreement between the two countries. In the course of subsequent discussions at official level, the possibility of being able to negotiate a free trade agreement emerged and, when I met the British Premier again in July, it was decided that the discussions should proceed with a view to exploring this possibility. Of course, the CIO reports are completely relevant in this situation and the circumstances envisaged by these reports are precisely those that will arise in the event of an agreement being concluded.

These reports are not very encouraging.

I do not regard them as discouraging.

Could the Taoiseach say at this stage if the discussions indicated propose to remove the levy surcharge imposed last year by the British Government?

I have already tried to make it clear that the import levy is an independent matter.

It is a very relevant matter.

A new trade agreement does not necessarily mean the simultaneous disappearance of the levy.

Were not certain Irish industrialists told there was no intention on the part of the British Government to remove this import levy?

There is no information in that regard except that published by the British Government themselves, who announced their intention of removing the levy as soon as possible and who have indicated only recently that it may be feasible to do that next year.

At least one industry was told by officials of the Department of Industry and Commerce that there was no question of the import levy going.

I do not know in what context that was said.

Could the Taoiseach tell us what he means by a free trade agreement?

I mean an agreement between this country and Great Britain which will be accepted by GATT as conforming to the GATT definition of a Free Trade Area Agreement and, in that way, permit of our membership of GATT.

It does not necessarily mean absolute free trade.

The GATT condition requires that substantially all the trade between the two countries should be free of duty.

But it need not be absolutely.

Substantially all trade.

4.

asked the Taoiseach whether, in connection with the present negotiations for a free trade area with Britain, there has been any discussion or mention of a political, as apart from an economic, connection of any kind with either the United Kingdom or the British Commonwealth; and, if so, if he will give details of such discussion.

The answer to the first part of the question is in the negative and the second part does not, therefore, arise.

5.

asked the Taoiseach if he will state with reference to the current trade negotiations between this country and Britain the dates and venues on which he and any members of the Government have been personally engaged in negotiation; if he will give similar particulars in respect of civil servants; and the rank and Departments of such officials.

With your permission, Sir, I propose to circulate in the Official Report a statement giving the required information.

Following is the statement:

Date

Place

Ministers/Officials

5th November, 1964

London

Taoiseach, Minister for Industry and Commerce; Secretaries of Departments of Finance, Industry and Commerce and External Affairs, and Irish Ambassador in London.

17th/18th December, 1964.

Dublin

Secretaries of Departments of Finance, Industry and Commerce, Agriculture and External Affairs, and other senior officials of these Departments.

3rd March, 1965

London

Secretary of Department of Industry and Commerce; officers of Assistant Secretary and Principal Officer rank from the Departments of Finance, Industry and Commerce, Agriculture and External Affairs and officers of the Embassy at London.

25th/26th March, 1965.

London

Secretaries of Departments of Finance, Industry and Commerce, Agriculture and External Affairs, and other senior officials of these Departments.

5th May, 1965

London

Secretaries of Departments of Finance, Industry and Commerce, Agriculture and External Affairs, and other senior officials of these Departments.

13th May, 1965

Dublin

Officials of Principal Officer and Assistant Principal Officer rank from Departments of Finance, Industry and Commerce, Agriculture and Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

1st/2nd July, 1965

London

Secretaries of Departments of Finance, Industry and Commerce, Agriculture and External Affairs; other senior officials of these Departments and the Irish Ambassador in London.

14th/15th July, 1965

Dublin

Officers of Assistant Secretary and Principal Officer rank from the Departments of Finance, Industry and Commerce, Agriculture and Fisheries and External Affairs, and from the Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

26th July, 1965

London

Taoiseach, Ministers for Finance, Industry and Commerce and Agriculture and Fisheries; Secretaries of these Departments and of the Department of External Affairs; other senior officials of these Departments and the Irish Ambassador in London.

5th/6th August, 1965

London

Officials of Assistant Secretary, Principal Officer and Assistant Principal Officer rank from Departments of Finance, Industry and Commerce, Agriculture and Fisheries, External Affairs and from the Office of the Revenue Commissioners.

2nd/3rd September, 1965.

Dublin

Secretaries of Departments of Finance, Industry and Commerce, Agriculture and Fisheries and External Affairs; other senior officials of these Departments and the Irish Ambassador in London.

1st October, 1965

Dublin

Officials of Deputy Secretary, Assistant Secretary, Principal Officer, Assistant Principal Officer and other ranks from the Departments of Finance, Industry and Commerce, Agriculture and Fisheries and External Affairs.

14th/20th October, 1965.

Dublin

Secretaries of Departments of Finance, Industry and Commerce, Agriculture and Fisheries and External Affairs; other senior officers of these Departments and of the Office of the Revenue Commissioners; and the Irish Ambassador in London.

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