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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Apr 1966

Vol. 222 No. 4

Adjournment Debate. - Coach Tour Contract.

Deputy T.J. Fitzpatrick (Cavan), on Question No. 16 on the Adjournment.

(Cavan): At Question Time today I asked the Minister for Transport and Power if he had any function in the day-to-day running of the semi-State company, Shannon Airport Sales and Catering Service, whether he has interfered or intends to interfere either directly or indirectly with a view to influencing the company to terminate a contract for the hire of a coach entered into by the said company with Messrs. Jackson's Garage, Limited and, finally, whether he approves as a matter of policy of the company hiring the most suitable coaches available on the best terms obtainable. I asked that question because the garage mentioned in the question had entered into a contract to supply the Shannon Free Airport with a coach for a period of two years on certain specified terms to operate a package tour known as the Galway Bay Package Tour. Let me say at once that this was only one of a number of buses or coaches employed by Shannon Free Airport. All the other coaches were supplied by CIE. That contract was entered into and then for some reason or other, which is not quite clear, the Shannon Free Airport intimated to Jackson's that they found it necessary to terminate the arrangement, as they called it, because of Government policy.

The Minister today told me that he did not interfere in the day-to-day running of the Shannon Free Airport but that he was responsible for the general policy of the company. He went on to say that a licence from his Department was a prerequisite to the running of Jackson's coach by the Shannon Free Airport and that such a licence had not been applied for and, more important still, if it were applied for, he would not grant it. I respectfully disagree with the Minister when he says that a licence is necessary for the operation in question. Similar coaches are being operated throughout the length and breadth of the country without any licence. This particular coach has been operating at Shannon Airport for the last month approximately and it is there yet. It is operating daily and will be operating for the next few days. If what the Minister says is correct, this coach has been operating illegally, breaking the law every day between Shannon Airport and Kinvara, under the eyes of the Garda and the officers of the Minister's Department. It has never been questioned by a Guard and no intimation has been given to them that they were operating illegally. If they were operating illegally, it is an extraordinary state of affairs.

I want to put it on the records of this House that I am quite satisfied that a licence is not necessary and that if a licence is necessary in this case, then a licence is necessary in hundreds of cases throughout the country for which licences are not in force. The Minister says that a licence is necessary and I cannot put it any further than that. I cannot put it any further than to say that I am satisfied, both in law and in practice, that a licence is not necessary in this case and that if it were necessary in this case, there were innumerable illegal bus operations going on in the country without any objection. However, more important, the Minister went on to say that if a licence were applied for in this case, he would not grant it. He says he is responsible for the general policy of this company and I suppose he would not disagree with me if I said that this company was supposed to operate at a profit and that if it is, it would be unreasonable to expect the company to employ a CIE coach if it could get better service from another company at a cheaper rate. That is exactly what is happening in this case and I defy the Minister to contradict me.

Messrs. Jackson's have operated coaches for the Shannon Free Airport over the past couple of years and they have given the utmost satisfaction. They have supplied a better bus than any bus which CIE can supply and I defy contradiction of that. They have given an excellent service and I defy contradiction of that. They have given a service considerably cheaper than CIE and I defy contradiction of that. Messrs. Jackson's employ about 100 people and they never had a trade dispute. They pay excellent wages and provide excellent conditions for their employees and, as I say, in their 20 years operating, they never had a trade dispute. They have given perfect satisfaction to Shannon Free Airport and I will quote a letter dated 25th April, 1966 from the Shannon Free Airport to the Managing Director of Jackson's Garage Limited. It stated:

As I have already explained during our discussion, it has been decided to terminate the arrangement regarding hireage of the coach for the Kinvara tour as from 30th April, 1966.

The bus is still operating. The letter goes on:

We have received instructions that the policy of my company in the present circumstances will be to use CIE coaches on all our tours. I very much regret that we are unable to continue to use your coaches and would like to take this opportunity to thank you for the excellent and courteous service we have received from you at all times.

The letter concludes:

Should the position change at any time in the future, we would be more than happy to resume negotiations with you.

You have not to take it on my word that this coach was giving excellent service. That is on the word of the man who entered into a contract for two years with this company to operate Jackson's coach on one tour, the Kinvara-Galway Bay tour. They were perfectly satisfied. I defy the Minister to contradict me when I say that CIE have not in their fleet as good a coach as that supplied by Jackson's.

They have, and better.

(Cavan): I am further saying that the Shannon Free Airport Company were effecting a considerable saving by employing Jackson's coach. At the same time Jackson's were paying excellent wages to a satisfied staff because this is a well-run company, well operated and well managed. Because of this they could compete with CIE. The only way CIE could get rid of this opposition and persuade the Shannon Free Airport Company to break a solemn contract entered into was to get the Minister, as head of CIE and of the licensing authority, to come in and intimidate the Shannon Free Airport Company and persuade them to break a contract they entered into. There is not one word in that letter about a licence. It says “We have received instructions....” I hope the Minister will be truthful and not contradict that those instructions came from him as Minister for Transport and Power.

Who signed that letter?

(Cavan): That is from the Deputy Controller of Shannon Free Airport.

Who is he?

(Cavan): You can find out any other way you like.

He probably never knew the comfort of a CIE bus.

(Cavan): My information is that he had many trips in Jackson's bus and he found it compared very favourably with CIE. It certainly looks better.

You said earlier they were superior. Now you say "compares favourably".

(Cavan): I would ask the Minister whether he approves of semi-State companies acting extravagantly, of retaining inferior coaches when they can get better ones, of paying considerably more for the coaches they retain than they need. I would ask the Minister whether or not he is aware that this coach was operating there for the past month under the eyes of the Garda and the officers of his Department. Why, if a breach of the law was being committed day after day, was no action taken to enforce the law? I would like to ask the Minister whether he in his capacity of Minister for Transport and Power, the Minister in charge of Bord Fáilte and all the other State companies, received any complaints last year in respect of passengers travelling on package tours in CIE coaches regarding the type of coach or its operation. I would ask him to tell the House the number of such complaints, if any were received or to confirm if none were received, if that is the case. On the other hand, I would ask him whether any complaints have been received in respect of travellers travelling on Jackson's coach.

All these things are relevant. The Minister should only use his influence to coerce this semi-State body into employing CIE coaches if those coaches are at least giving as good value in service and for money as their opposition. I would like the Minister to say from whom these people received instructions. I think the Minister wrote other letters in this matter, including one to Deputy Coughlan——

(Cavan):——in which he said:

The State companies are encouraged where possible to make use of CIE services so long as the costs are competitive.

I would ask the Minister to tell us now whether the costs were competitive and to explain to this House why he would refuse to issue a licence if such is necessary. What grounds does he consider would justify him in refusing to issue a licence in this case? Is it on the grounds that the service offered by Jackson's was not as good as CIE? Is it on the grounds that Jackson's were dearer than CIE? I put it to him again that Jackson's provided a better service with a better coach.

(Cavan): The country at large will tell you what they think of CIE.

Ridiculous.

(Cavan): Deputy Geoghegan has a vested interest in CIE.

Do not misrepresent the case. This is purely a question of tourists.

The CIE tour buses are a credit to the country.

(Cavan): Why did Medieval Tours say they regretted very much they could not continue to do business with Jackson's? Why did they say: “I very much regret that we are unable to continue to use your coaches and would like to take this opportunity to thank you for the excellent and courteous service we have received from you at all times.”

I am now calling upon the Minister to conclude.

(Cavan): I put it to the Minister that there is no reason why a licence should not be issued in this case.

First of all, I want to say that if Deputy Fitzpatrick bothered to inquire, he would find that probably of all the services rendered by CIE the tour coach bus services are the most highly praised, and if he chooses to write and ask the Public Relations Officer of CIE for a list of voluntarily written letters from the people taking part in these tours, which appear regularly in the CIE Nuacht week after week, pages of them, he will have the final proof of what I say. I will have no slander against the CIE tour bus service. It is first-class, and the praise bestowed upon it is something of which CIE and all of us can be proud. That is not to say that Jackson's of Cavan could not have provided an excellent service with courtesy rendered to the passengers thereon.

On the question of licensing, it is absolutely clear that under the Road Transport Act, 1932, I can refuse or grant a licence for a passenger road service. It defines a service as one or more mechanically propelled vehicles travelling wholly or mainly on public roads and carrying passengers between specified terminal points or along a specified route for separate charges in respect of each passenger. At my absolute discretion, I can give this licence or refuse it, but I have to take into account whether or not the proposed service for which the licence is required is in the public interest, having regard to the other forms of transport available. There are a number of motor coach tours operated all around the country by persons licensed in this way. They numbered nine last year and held 36 licences between them. These are in addition to the foreign coach tour operators who are also licensed and in addition to the licensed operators of regular provincial bus services other than CIE. These licences are granted in general because CIE or other private bus services cannot provide the service.

I think Deputy Fitzpatrick is confusing licences granted or withheld for that kind of service with people who charter a bus for an outing such as a football match or other event. The service is not available to the public at large and it is arranged on an en bloc basis. The bus is chartered for a particular event for a particular group of passengers. It is not a regular service which goes on day after day. There is a complete distinction between the chartering of a service for a specific day or specific operation and a service which runs at regular intervals and for which passengers book in advance but who are not grouped together in a club or society in the ordinary way. No doubt that is what is confusing Deputy Fitzpatrick when he speaks of a great number of these tour buses going around the country taking people to Knock and to other places of interest.

In regard to this licence, I have been perfectly frank with the Deputy. I have said I would refuse the licence if it had been asked of me. It was completely wrong for the Shannon Free Airport Development Company to hire Jackson's bus without seeking a licence. I did not know the bus had been operating until I received information thereon. I have regular meetings with the chairman and the officers of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company at which the whole policy of the company is discussed in great detail in regard to industries established, in regard to Medieval Tours, the expenditure of capital, the expenditure on grants and so on. I know all about what goes on down there but the company operates in such a way that I would not need to go into such minutiae as to say at a routine meeting to the chairman of the company: "By the way, are you sure that you applied for a licence for any buses you have hired? Do you employ buses other than those of CIE?" The company, I am very glad to say, operates so successfully that a Minister's intervention on a matter of that kind would not be necessary, and so it did not come up in the course of discussions with the Board of CIE and with the officers.

I did not receive in my office any complaints that I remember in regard to the services of CIE buses for the Medieval Tours last year. I cannot recollect receiving any letters concerning such complaints and, therefore, had no reason to suppose there should be a conflict of opinion between myself and the chairman of CIE as to whether he should use any other bus than a CIE bus for these tours. I may say that the CIE tours from Shannon Airport have included the Galway Bay Tour. There is an indication that something went wrong in the planning of this whole project. I am sorry that there was this mistake in understanding.

When the Deputy asks me about the comparative prices the answer is that the prices charged by CIE and by Jackson's are not comparable. I do not reveal contract prices of this kind, and that is the custom in connection with State companies. They are not comparable because the whole organisation of CIE is behind this Kinvara Tour as in the case of the other tours. Their advertising, their sales manager, are all concerned with selling the tour. Therefore it is quite impossible to make a comparison between the price for transport for which there is concentrated publicity and the simple hire of a bus for a specific tour.

I think I have answered all the questions Deputy Fitzpatrick has asked me. I have nothing against this firm. I have every reason to believe that Jackson's is an excellent firm, providing an excellent service, but I felt that in this case I should be departing from precedent if I granted a licence. Taking it by and large, licences are not granted to regular bus tour operators where they afford unnecessary and undesirable competition either with CIE — there is a clear indication in the Act that they should receive protection — or even with some other bus tour operator whose traffic might be cut by 50 per cent as a result of which neither of the firms could make a good profit or render good service.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 28th April, 1966.

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