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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 23 Nov 1967

Vol. 231 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 26—Local Government (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following Motion:
That a sum not exceeding £9,030,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1968, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government, including Grants to Local Authorities, Grants and other Expenses in connection with Housing, and Miscellaneous Schemes and Grants including certain Grants-in-Aid.—(Minister for Local Government.)

(Cavan): On a point of order, I do not want to be obstructive but the Minister has given us an instalment of his script. As I understand the position, the Minister is not entitled, as of right, to read his speech. I know there is long-established practice that he does so by courtesy of the House and I have no objection whatever to that, but it is equally long-established practice that in exchange for that courtesy extended to the Minister, a Minister would extend the same courtesy by making available to members of the Opposition, dealing with a particular matter, a script as he goes along with his speech. I would ask the Minister either to make the whole script available now or to make it available page by page.

The Minister has the right to read his speech. The speech has been prepared by his officials and it is given to the Opposition and other speakers who depend on the Minister's courtesy.

Under what Standing Order has he a special right? He has either the right under a Standing Order or he has not the right. Do not let us confuse the matter.

(Cavan): I respectfully submit that Ministers did read speeches in the past by courtesy of the House. When the House grants the Minister the courtesy of reading his speech from a script, the Minister invariably extends the same courtesy by circulating his speech to Members of the Opposition as he is reading it.

(Cavan): Is the Minister just circulating it as he goes along?

Could it not be agreed that the Minister would read the next ten or 15 pages before 5 o'clock? Could he not give that number of pages together. Such a practical arrangement could be made by the courtesy of the House.

Would it not be the sensible thing, as it is now 4.45 p.m., to leave it until next week?

Would the Minister give it to us next week?

I would.

Would the Minister consider now, and it could be agreed, that he would read another six or ten pages and that they would be issued together, instead of having the script flitting across the House page by page?

I do not know how many pages I will be able to read in a quarter of an hour.

(Cavan): We will leave it.

When I reported progress, I was dealing with some of the exceptional delays that had occurred in the National Building Agency project at Ballymun and I stated that an extra round of wage increases had been secured and work resumed at the former level of output. This summer the outlook was for catching up on all the loss of time but there was another set back in August last when the electricians walked out. On this occasion, they were not supported by the decision of the Joint Industrial Council and they resumed work. Progress again looked promising in September, when about 300 flats should have been ready for occupation by Dublin families. However, some days before a block of flats was due to be completed for hand-over another delay occurred. The electrical cables leading into the block were cut through with a hack-saw and the wiring pulled out of the conduit. This occurrence was investigated by the Gardaí. The nearly-completely block of flats has now been completed and during the month of October some 366 flats were handed over to the Corporation.

Despite the delays such as those to which I have referred the contractors have recently informed me that, given a continuance of output at its present level, they are hopeful that the contract can be completed in the four years agreed.

Expenditure on the Ballymun project was approximately £1 million in its first year, £3¼ million last year, and will, it is estimated, be about £3½ million this year.

I wish well to the tenants and their families in the Ballymun estate. It is understandable that in a busy building site and in a growing community, difficulties will arise for people living and going about their day-to-day business. Any complaints brought to the Agency's notice by Dublin Corporation, which relate to contract works for which the contractors are responsible, will continue to be investigated and dealt with promptly by the Agency. Complaints which relate to estate management are, of course, the responsibility of Dublin Corporation. There has been evidence of a sense of responsibility and pride of occupancy by residents in the estate and I look forward to the benefits which this will undoubtedly bring to the community.

A recommendation on arrangements for the provisions of the proposed shopping centre at Ballymun was sent from my Department to Dublin Cordoubtedl poration on 26 July last, following negotiations with developers who had expressed an interest in the project. At the same time it was conveyed to the Corporation that the arrangements for the provision of certain community facilities at the centre, including swimming pool and meeting halls, were being further considered by my Department. The recommendation was that the Corporation should enter into an agreement with particular developers for the building of the shopping centre on the basis of a lease of the site to the developers. In return, the Corporation would be paid a guaranteed annual ground rent of £21,500 and would in addition share in the profits of the scheme. The City Council have adopted my recommendations and I understand that arrangements are proceeding for the building of the centre which will include a full range of shopping, offices, licensed premises and other facilities, with suitable parking provision and accommodation for the additional community facilities which are to be added.

Deputies will be aware that I have authorised the National Building Agency to enter into negotiations with Messrs. John Sisk & Son, Ltd., Cork, in respect of the provision of 1,800 dwellings at Cork and Messrs. Malachy Burke Ltd., Galway, in respect of 600 dwellings at Limerick. Letters of Intent have been issued to these groups and accepted by them, on the basis of which the negotiation of the terms of contracts is now proceeding. The intention is that these houses would be supplemental to the normal housing programme of these authorities.

The dwellings to be built in Cork will be constructed on the Domus system which has been developed by the Sisk organisation, based on in situ concrete crosswalls, with specially designed floors and spandrils. The Limerick houses will be built by Messrs. Burke on rationalised traditional building methods. I have undertaken that the local authorities concerned will be consulted with particular regard to layouts, design, and pricing on the negotiation of the terms of the contracts. This definitive step marks the culmination of efforts, to evolve special housing projects which will enable the housing authorities to come to grips once and for all with the serious housing problems which still exist in both cities.

The successful outcome of this project, together with the normal building programmes of the two authorities— which will themselves go ahead at full speed independently of the project— should mean the effective elimination within a comparatively short few years of the housing needs of Cork and Limerick cities as presently estimated by the respective housing authorities.

In order to expedite the start of the project at the earliest possible date, I arranged that moneys will be made available from State sources over the normal 50-year loan period for the project.

I hope the Limerick contract will be completed within three years and the Cork contract—which involves a number of dispersed and difficult sites and a volume of housing which requires a substantial increase in services—in about four to five years.

The capital allocation of £3.5 million for sanitary services in the current financial year shows an increase on the sum of £3.17 million allocated in 1966-67. This has enabled a reasonable level of activity to be continued in this sector and has, in particular, ensured that urgent schemes needed to provide services for new housing and industrial development are constructed as required.

In the Dublin area where there was a danger that a shortage of serviced land would create a major problem for house-builders, I arranged that the local authorities would undertake, as a matter of urgency, the provision of sufficient drainage to ensure that house building would not be impeded in the area. I am glad to say that the local authorities have now on hands a programme under which additional services land will be available within the next six to 18 months. A longer term drainage programme, the planning of which is being pushed ahead as rapidly as possible, will ensure that adequate serviced land will be available to meet long-term needs. This programme includes the completion of the Dodder Valley scheme and the Grand Canal scheme and the extension of the existing treatment plant at the Ringsend outfall works.

A total of £985,000 is provided in Subhead F (1) in respect of State contributions to loan charges incurred by local authorities on Sanitary Services Works for the year 1967-68. This shows an increase of £73,587, over the amount paid to Sanitary Authorities in 1966-67.

Subhead F (2) includes a sum of £94,000 in respect of recoupment of supplementary grants for water supply installations to farmers who would have been eligible for the scheme of domestic grants formerly operated by the Department of Agriculture. This recoupment is designed to ensure that no additional burden will arise on the rates as a result of my Department taking over this scheme.

When the Government initiated their programme in 1959 for the provision of piped water in rural areas it was intended that the programme would be carried out by a combination of three methods, that is, by the local sanitary authority providing schemes on a regional basis to serve large areas; by individuals providing their own piped systems with the aid of the grants available from my Department and from their local authority; and by a number of neighbours coming together and providing a piped water system to each of their houses on a group basis, again with the aid of the appropriate State and local grants.

Regional water schemes have already been constructed or are in course of construction at a cost of approximately £9 million. It is estimated that the total cost of further regional schemes currently at different planning stages throughout the country exceeds £36 million. It would be unrealistic to expect that a programme of this magnitude could be undertaken in simultaneous operations having regard to all the other demands on available capital resources.

I have, therefore, asked county councils to review their regional schemes so as to identify the more urgent schemes or the more urgent sections of schemes so that these can proceed to construction stage as early as possible having regard to the availability of capital. I am fully alive to the many benefits which piped water can bring to rural areas and I believe that many areas which it has been proposed should be served by regional schemes could more readily and more economically be provided for by group effort. County councils have been asked to review the regional schemes and identify those where it can be established that the construction of head works and trunk mains would facilitate the provision of piped water by groups.

In many countries the need to provide ever increasing quantities of good quality water for domestic and industrial purposes on the one hand, and, on the other, the growing dangers to water sources from pollution by domestic and industrial wastes have led to the setting up of national organisations charged with the task of planning the rational use of water resources. While this country is not as yet faced with serous shortages of suitable water nor with widespread water pollution problems it seems only prudent to consider what action is required to guard against those contingencies. I have asked An Foras Forbartha to examine and report to me on what would be the financial and organisational implications of establishing an organisation to record and carry out research into the use of our water resources as a new division within An Foras.

The number of fires which result in loss of life is a matter of concern. Many of these fires could have been prevented by the observance of proper fire precautions. During the year, my Department published a booklet entitled "Fire Protection Standards". This booklet sets revised recommended standards for fire prevention in all buildings (both new and existing) where a high degree of fire resistance is required.

I am most anxious that the fullest publicity should be given to these standards and that every person who is responsible for the safety of buildings which provide dormitory accommodation or which house large numbers should be fully aware of the standards and of the necessity to ensure a proper level of safety in such buildings.

I would also like to refer to the work of the Fire Protection Association of Ireland which was established in 1965 as a result of the co-operation of the Fire Offices Committee of Insurance Companies and my Department. This Association devotes its entire resources to educating the public in regard to the hazards of fire and in making them aware of the necessity to ensure the observance of proper fire safety precautions. It is worthy of the widest possible support. I would like to see every industrial and commercial concern in the country and every institution becoming members of this Association. They could not but profit from doing so.

I was very pleased to be in a position during the year to approve of proposals for the building of a small number of swimming pools. These pools will be in the nature of pilot projects from which experience will be gained for the continuance of the swimming pool programme in future years. While I am fully alive to the need for promoting a better standard of swimming and life saving in the country and recognise the contribution which adequate swimming pool facilities could make in this regard, I could not justify any large scale resumption of the swimming pool programme for the present because of other community needs, such as housing and essential sanitary services, which must continue to get priority. Local authorities and other interested parties should, however, continue to plan their swimming pool projects so that they will be in a position to go ahead according as resources permit.

I note that local authorities and other local bodies sponsoring swimming pool projects in different areas have different approaches to their task. Some bodies put forward their plans, often fairly elaborate ones, and expect the State to find the total of their capital requirements, while others are giving practical expression to their keen interest in furthering their project by raising money locally to meet a portion of the cost. In a number of areas the amount of money raised locally by voluntary effort has been substantial and I appreciate fully the energy and initiative shown in these areas. I wish to make it clear now to everyone concerned that, when deciding on which individual pools may have prior claim on whatever capital may be available in the future for this purpose, I shall feel obliged to take into account the extent of local interest shown in the projects, as evidenced by the amount of effort that has been made to secure part of the cost from local sources.

Implementation of Government policy on itinerants has been somewhat slow to date but I am glad to note that, in addition to the two small serviced sites which have been in operation in Limerick and Kildare counties for the past year, an extensive site which will cater for 39 families, is now available in the Dublin City area. This, of course, is only a start and considerably more accommodation of this type is an urgent need in the Dublin area. I understand that other councils have selected sites but that some others who have expressed their willingness say that they are experiencing difficulties in purchasing land for the purpose.

In this connection I might emphasise that it is open to a local authority to consider whether they should invoke their powers of compulsory purchase in order to provide a proper site in any particular area. I have recently confirmed, subject to modifications, an Order for compulsory acquisition of sites by Galway County Council. To some extent, the opposition to the settlement policy which is evident in some places may spring from a lack of understanding of the comprehensive aim of the policy. There is ample evidence that voluntary social workers are anxious to help in the settlement of itinerants, and in arrangements for education and employment, and I would like to take the opportunity here to pay tribute to the work of the groups engaged in this field. It is clear, however, that the voluntary helpers and official agencies cannot work effectively until they have a permanent base from which to operate. Hence the importance of the special authorised sites, which the local authorities are expected to provide.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.
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