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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 21 Feb 1968

Vol. 232 No. 10

Private Members' Business. - Road Traffic Bill, 1966: Committee Stage (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That section 59, as amended, stand part of the Bill.

Mr. Barrett

One of the consequences of section 59, as we now find it, should, I think, be reflected in the index to the statue. I should like to draw the attention of the Minister and of his advisers to the effect of the repeal of section 88 of the Principal Act. I think the repeal of that section by section 59 as we now find it is almost casual. Lawyers and, indeed, others who have to have recourse to these Acts feel they should find the repeal of any section of the Principal Act referred to in the index to the repealing statute. The index to the Bill, under section 59, simply says: "Regulations for the general control of traffic and pedestrians." Some reference, however casual, should be made to the fact that section 88 of the Principal Act is repealed by this section 59. It would be wise and certainly it would be welcomed by legal practitioners and others if they could find a reference to the repeal of section 88 of the Principal Act in the index to section 59 of this Bill, when they scan through it.

I welcome the repeal of section 88 of the Principal Act but I do so in a qualified sort of way. I welcome it because the regulation-making authority under section 59 replaces the Commissioner of the Garda by the Minister. Anything I say now is not a reflection upon the Commissioner of the Garda and his advisers, or anything like that. However, this section is very wide in its general powers. Subsection (2) points out that anything that subsection may provide is without prejudice to the generality of subsection (1). That being so, the most widespread regulations may now be made by the Minister in place of the Garda Commissioner.

Something to which I always took violent objection, in regard to the making of regulations of this nature by the Garda Commissioner, was that, of its nature, the Garda force is not interested in the economic effects which any regulations in regard to the control of traffic might have. They conceived their duty, and rightly so, I think, as being confined mainly to making the streets safe for pedestrians and others and to making traffic move with ordinary expedition. They proceeded on that basis. Whether or not they proceeded under section 88 or section 89 of the old Act, I do not know, but if it was not possible for them to proceed under section 88, they proceeded under section 89: I am sorry steps were not taken to remove section 89 from the ambit of the Commissioner's powers. The effect was that traffic regulations were generally of a nature which probably made traffic move faster, and maybe safer for pedestrians and others, but there were calamitous effects for street traders —large ratepayers and others—living in areas affected by these new regulations.

Now that he has the power to make regulations, I hope the Minister will advert to the serious and, in some cases, crippling hardship which can be inflicted upon business firms in areas affected by traffic regulations. In my constituency of Cork city, regulations of this nature, made under either section 88 or section 89, had calamitous effects on traders—very considerable traders such as those in McCurtain Street, Grand Parade, South Mall, Pembroke Street and Winthrop Street —but nothing could be done for them.

Similarly, the powers of the Garda Commissioner in regard to the regulation of traffic generally, include the siting of bus stops. Again, the same approach was taken by the Commissioner — the Commissioner, of course, being advised by the local Garda who did not advert to the social or economic consequences of the regulations they were making. Lest the Minister be in any doubt about that, I may say I received a letter this week from the Chief Superintendent of the Garda in Cork regretting that, under the regulations, he felt it would be wrong for him to take into consideration the economic effects which any regulations he might make in regard to the siting of bus stops would have on traders, for instance, in South Mall and other streets in Cork. I should like the Minister, under section 88 and section 89, to take power to deal with this matter. I know that the section says that the Commissioner, having consulted with the local authority concerned, may make bye-laws for the regulation and control of traffic and pedestrians and to facilitate the movement of traffic and pedestrians. The Commissioner, however, is under no obligation to take advice from the local authority. My experience in Cork city is that that is so. It is within the statute if he asks for their views. He can then throw those views into the river or into any receptacle handy at the time and pay no further attention to them. That has happened. It is a bad thing; it is a dangerous thing. It has given rise to many difficulties in my constituency of Cork City.

I mention a bus stop there, as an example. Particularly, I think section 88 would deal with this because it enables the Minister to make general rather than local regulations. When the present regulations, made under section 88 of the old Act, are being replaced —I welcome most sincerely the Minister's amendment which provides for the revocation of these regulations— there should be a very direct indication to the Garda authorities generally, or to whoever is in charge of the siting of bus stops, things like pedestrian crossings, and so on, that no bus stop should be erected in close proximity to a pedestrian crossing. Many death traps were created by that particular habit which seems to have been developed certainly by the Garda authorities in Cork city. There is one at Infirmary Road and another at St. Luke's Cross in Cork. Every public representative there has, from time to time, been approached with a view to having either the bus stop or the pedestrian crossing removed but nothing has happened in that regard. Therefore, when the Minister comes to make regulations under section 88, I hope he will make a general regulation directing that the authorities throughout the country shall advert in particular to this dangerous and unfortunately popular habit of siting bus stops near pedestrian crossings. It is an exceedingly dangerous thing.

In the same general way, the Minister should direct traffic authorities throughout the country that bus stops should not be sited in places where there is an unbroken white line in the middle of a narrow street. The effects of that have been noticed quite often particularly at peak hours in Cork city, and particularly at Infirmary Road to which I directed the Minister's attention by way of Dáil Questions. A bus stop is sited continuous to a pedestrian crossing and also in a narrow street where there is an unbroken white line in the middle of the street. The effect is that when buses stop there at peak hours, traffic, right back the whole way, is stopped because it would have to go over the white line in order to pass the buses. It is clumsy and unimaginative and it is very necessary that the Minister should give a general directive in this matter.

These are some of the reasons why I welcome the Minister's assumption of powers in this matter where the Garda authorities had them before. Again, I want to make it quite clear that I am not pointing any finger of scorn at the Garda authorities but the Minister, as Minister responsible to this House, should advert more to general welfare than purely to the road traffic aspects of a matter like this. There is no doubt that the operation of section 88, and certainly of section 89, of the Principal Act, is accompanied by immense hardship being suffered by people who feel they have no come back of any description against the authorities who are imposing these hardships on them, and imposing them quite sincerely in the belief that they are doing their duty and, in fact, the people in question are doing their duty at the time.

For that reason, even at this stage— I hope I can stay within the rules of the House in saying this—perhaps the Minister would have another look at section 89 to see if he could do something about it. It would be very important, if the Minister is going to allow these powers to reside with the Garda Commissioner, that there should not only be provision for the Garda Commissioner to consult with the local authorities but there should be some stronger word or words to give the local authorities some power in these matters. I say that because it is only people like the local authorities who understand the difficulties involved for business people and people who want to shop in their areas. I earnestly suggest to the Minister that he might have another look at these sections.

I should be glad if the Minister would indicate if he agrees with my suggestion that in the index to the Act there should be a definite indication that section 88 has been repealed. In a general approach to legislation it is a bad thing that a section of any Act should be repealed in such a casual fashion as in subsection (4) of section 59. This particular subsection should be held up to all draftsmen of all Departments as a particularly bad example of draftsmanship and an example which should not be followed under any circumstances in any future enactment of the Oireachtas.

Perhaps I might deal with some of Deputy Barrett's points first. I will look into the question of the index between now and Report Stage and if what he suggests can be done, I will arrange it. With regard to the bye-laws made by the Commissioner of the Garda at present, the Minister must, of course, be advised of any views or representations that the local authorities make with regard to the bye-laws and these are considered very carefully before the Minister approves. With regard to section 89 of the 1961 Act, if Deputy Barrett will look at section 61 of the Bill he will see that under that section, which is an enabling section, power may be transferred to the local authority under that section. It reads: "The Minister may by order transfer to a specified road authority..." and so on.

Mr. Barrett

I hope the Minister will take power under section 61 to do this.

It is intended, where it is indicated, that that should be done——

Mr. Barrett

I am sorry; I overlooked section 61.

Deputy Fitzpatrick raised the point that pedestrians should be required to wear reflectorised belts or armlets. The section would appear to cover that and that type of regulation could be made. This, however, is something in which a certain degree of success is being achieved by persuasion at present and this has been a major feature in a number of our safety campaigns and in television publicity. On the previous day when we were discussing this Bill, Deputy de Valera made the point that those making the laws should have regard to the practical question of enforcing them and he pointed out that there were not sufficient gardaí to enforce existing bye-laws made by the Commissioner and now it was intended that these functions should be transferred to the Minister for Local Government who, as I pointed out myself, has not the responsibility for enforcing them.

As I already stated in the course of this debate, I reject the suggestion that because we cannot ensure 100 per cent enforcement of the laws, we should do nothing about these problems which it is desirable to regulate. I fully agree that we cannot ensure that every law passed will be 100 per cent observed and enforced, but we have to hope for some element of co-operation by the public. We have to hope that the majority of people will decide that since the law is there, they will observe it. For those who do not observe the law we have to depend on the degree of enforcement it is possible to provide.

Again, Deputy de Valera asked why it was proposed to transfer the power of the Commissioner to make general bye-laws for the general control of traffic and pedestrians to the Minister for Local Government. Deputy Barrett gave some of the reasons why this is desirable. The main reason is that in recent years, with the development of motor traffic, with the emergence of the new science of traffic engineering and the growth of international traffic involving harmonisation of the law in European countries—for example, the European Conference of Ministers for Transport propose to introduce a uniform system of rules of the road—the formulation of rules of the road must be regarded as a matter of high policy. In all countries, so far as we can trace, the rules of the road are the responsibility of a Minister and of the Parliament of the country and, in view of this, it seems to be wrong in principle that bye-laws should be made by the Commissioner. The change proposed here will mean that the regulations made will be made under the usual scrutiny of the House and of the Seanad, as are the bye-laws at present.

Last Thursday, also, Deputy Tully asked if there were any proposals to make regulations to govern the driving of lorries in convoys on main roads going in and out of the city. There is no immediate proposal to make such regulations but the power is there, under section 59 of the Bill, to do so if it is considered necessary. The draft international Convention on Road Traffic, to which Ireland will probably adhere, includes provisions governing the driving of lorries in convoys and section 48 of the Bill makes it an offence to drive a vehicle without reasonable consideration for others. So that, I think that problem can be effectively covered.

Deputy Tully also referred to the emission of diesel fumes from vehicles. This is covered under the Road Traffic Construction and Use Regulations, 1963 which are made under the 1961 Act.

May I ask the Minister a question? Has he any power to deal with level crossings or is he taking any power in this Bill or am I in order in pursuing this matter?

What exactly is the problem?

I am thinking of a level crossing on a railway where there is a gate on the road and the people using the road must open the gate. This has been a source of accidents. Subsection (1) states that the Minister may make regulations for the general regulation and control of traffic and pedestrians in public places. The roads that I am thinking of are used by the public. When one communicates with CIE, the organisation concerned, they point out that the road in question is an accommodation road and that the public have not complete right on them. Accidents have occurred on these roads and questions have been asked in the Dáil about one in particular outside Castlerea which has given rise to quite a few accidents. There are many other such crossings throughout the country and this could be an opportunity to try to deal with them.

I do not know whether you can deal with them by regulation under this section or not but there is a demand from the public in the Castlerea area that something should be done. There are other such crossings in Roscommon and Mayo. They are a source of danger. If people using them must open the gate on the road and close it against the train, if the train happens to be coming through one has to scurry and some people are not able to scurry quickly enough.

There are two questions. The Minister may not be able to answer the first question off the cuff. I should like to know if there is a public right of way between the two sections of Dún Laoghaire Harbour which the train that goes to meet the mailboat crosses. Some years ago CIE just locked the gates and closed this public right of way and I do not think they had any authority to do that. I should like the Minister to tell me what their authority was. He may not be able to answer this question off the cuff. Alternatively, could he prevail on CIE to put in the Continental type of gates, if they do not want to have a man in charge of opening and closing them? Inconvenience has been caused to many people by the closing of the gates.

The second question might be directed to Deputy Cluskey, the Parliamentary representative on the Local Government Committee of the Council of Europe. From country to country the rules governing right of way on roundabouts vary. In some countries, as in this country, I understand, the person on the roundabout has the right of way, whereas in Italy and other countries the person coming on to the roundabout has the right of way and the person on the roundabout must yield. Something should be done about getting internationally recognised regulations.

I agree with the Minister that it is most important that in Europe all the rules of the road should be the same. In view of the experiments that have been carried out, we should seriously examine the question, in consultation, I suppose, with the United Kingdom, as to whether it would be advisable at this stage to revert to driving on the righthand side of the road.

With regard to the question raised by Deputy Dr. Gibbons dealing with level crossings—the same answer will apply to the first question raised by Deputy Lemass— these matters are dealt with under railway statutes and, therefore, the question of level crossings would be a matter for the Minister for Transport and Power but before any change in the control system at a crossing is made the Department of Transport and Power does consult with the Department of Local Government with regard to safety aspects. The actual control of these things is dealt with by statutes dealing with railways. The Department of Local Government would, of course, be concerned with the provision of warning signs, and so on, with regard to level crossings but the control of the level crossings is a matter for the Minister for Transport and Power.

How about the public right of way?

I think that would be the same. I assume it would be dealt with under railway law also. I think so.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 60 agreed to.
SECTION 61.
Question proposed: "That section 61 stand part of the Bill."

(Cavan): I should like to ask the Minister what exactly he has in mind here because, candidly, on reading the section and even on reading the explanatory memorandum it is not too clear to me. It is a proposal to transfer certain traffic functions to local authorities. As to whether the transfer is to be from one local authority to another or from the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána to a local authority, I am not too clear. I should like the Minister to clarify the position.

This section was intended mainly for the Dublin area but it was put in general terms in case the need might arise elsewhere. It arose because of a report that was commissioned by An Foras Forbartha, known as the McGrath Report, which recommended the setting up by a Dublin Corporation of a separate traffic engineering section under a traffic director which would carry out all traffic functions for the Dublin area. The report envisaged that the section would be subject to a traffic board which would include representatives of the corporation, county council, Dún Laoghaire Corporation and the Garda authorities, through which all matters relating to traffic management in the Dublin area would be channelled. No decision has been taken to do all this, but it is accepted that it may be best to have all traffic functions carried out by the road authority. The section is purely an enabling section and an order under it will be made only if circumstances require and there is no certainty that they will. In so far as the McGrath Report has been accepted by the City Manager, it is his intention to implement it in stages. If an adequate organisation of this type were created by Dublin Corporation, all traffic functions in the city and county could be transferred to it. There are obvious advantages in transferring traffic management from the Garda to a body using traffic engineers, especially when that body is also the road authority and the planning authority.

I can sympathise with the wish of the Minister and the administrator to have all power vested in traffic engineers, but that overlocks the equally important consideration that the public have the right to be consulted. The indiscriminate application of engineering principles to road traffic problems often ignores the fact that human considerations ought to take precedence.

There have been some extraordinary decisions in relation to road traffic in Dublin in recent times, in regard to bus traffic, in regard to the location of bus stops and so on, which have caused severe personal hardship. Several changes in road traffic have also caused serious financial loss to traders. On many occasions legitimate interests which have been built up over the years have been destroyed overnight because of the application of some engineering conception. That would be bad enough if the engineers were always right in what they did, but it also happens that sometimes the experts, the engineers, have recommended the application of some scheme or other which turns out to be worse than the difficult situation that they intended to cure, and in the application of the temporary scheme untold hardship is done to people not only in relation to personal convenience but also in relation to personal fortune.

It is, therefore, with a certain amount of reserve that one approaches a section such as this by which the Minister seeks to vest immense power in people who may, from an engineering point of view, appear to have the solution, but from the human point of view may be doing something which will cause untold hardship. I should like to see more consideration of representations made by people who may be affected by traffic schemes, and I do hope that whatever power the Minister may seek to vest here in Dublin Corporation or any other local authority will not be exercised unless due attention is paid to the representations which may be made to them.

At present we have the ludicrous position in relation to bus traffic that if representations are made to CIE, the answer is made by CIE that the Garda are responsible and not they. If representations are made to the Garda, we are informed it is Dublin Corporation and CIE who are responsible. If Dublin Corporation are consulted they push the blame on to CIE and the Garda. The result of all this is that the ordinary members of the public feel that there is no organ available to them to express themselves. On that account I would urge that a second look be taken at this section so that we do not vest power, without ultimate responsibility to the public, in any set of engineers or any set of experts.

(Cavan): Having heard the Minister's explanation of section 61, I find it difficult to know what was intended because what the Minister intends to do in this section, which he says is intended to apply only to Dublin city, but it might possibly in years to come to apply to the rest of the country, is to transfer the functions of the Commissioner of the Garda or of a local authority to a body or a road authority which does not yet exist. The Minister says he has got from somebody or other a report which recommends the setting up of a road authority in Dublin consisting of various people, but distinct and apart from Dublin Corporation, and that he intends to transfer to that body the functions of the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána and Dublin Corporation and, I assume, Dublin County Council.

Since the board which he has in mind has not yet been set up, might it not be better to leave this section until such time as the board is brought into existence? Under the section as it stands, it would be possible, in theory —I know it is unlikely to happen— to transfer the functions of Dublin Corporation to Leitrim County Council or transfer the functions of Kildare County Council to Dublin County Council. If I understand the section properly, that could happen. As the whole position regarding what is intended under this section is so very much in the air, I think it would be much better to forget about it until the road authorities which the Minister has in mind are set up.

As I said, this is only an enabling section. There is no decision made to do this at all. Deputy Ryan says these decisions should not be taken by road engineers only. At present they are made by the Garda authorities, and this provision would transfer these functions to the road authority which would be composed of other representatives of local authorities, where, I think, representation in regard to the effect of decisions on individuals would be likely to get more consideration, if anything, than at present.

The Minister would not make an order transferring functions to a local authority without consulting the elected representatives. I do not think there is anything to be afraid of in this. As I said, no decision has been made to do it, but it seems that it may be desirable to do it at some time in the future. I think this is a desirable power to have, to make this change, which is merely to transfer the functions from the Garda authorities to the local authorities.

Subsection (3) provides that any order made by the Minister setting up such an authority may contain such modifications of the Principal Act as are reasonably necessary for the purpose. If ever there was latent legislation by regulation this is it. Here we are for months on end discussing amendments to the Road Traffic Act of 1961, all of which can be negatived by some regulation which the Minister may make amending the whole of the 1961 Act. One appreciates the Minister is limited by what is considered to be reasonably necessary, but if an engineer is able to produce anything which, from an engineering point of view, can be shown to be reasonably necessary, apparently the Minister will not be under any obligation to come back to the House to seek to amend the legislation. I think that is too great power to give to the Minister, and I should like to see this subsection qualified.

Is it not clear that an order made under this subsection may contain such consequential or ancillary provisions as are reasonably necessary for the implementation of the transfer?

(Cavan): If it stopped there, it would be all right.

The consequential provisions would be for the continuance in force of the existing bye-laws. The subsection continues: "... and may contain such modifications of the Principal Act as are reasonably necessary for that purpose." It must be for the purpose of making these consequential provisions. I think that is clear enough.

(Cavan): My objection to this enabling section, as the Minister calls it, and which it undoubtedly is, is that the whole thing is gloriously vague. This is asking the House to give a blank cheque, to transfer a function which is now vested in the Commissioner of the Garda in Dublin or Monaghan County Council to a road authority which may come into existence in future. That is going too far. It is too much of a blank cheque. If we knew the constitution of this proposed road authority, we might have no hesitation in giving the authority sought in this section, but we do not know its constitution. We do not know whether the elected representative will have any control over it, or whether this House will have any control over it. I am not happy, to say the least of it, about this section. Candidly, I admit that I did not understand it until the Minister explained it, and having heard the Minister, I do not think I can be blamed for not understanding it.

It is not proposed to hand it over to a new road authority to be constituted. The road authority is the road authority as at present constituted. I referred to the recommendation in the McGrath Report for the setting up by Dublin Corporation of a separate traffic engineering section under a traffic director which would be subject to a traffic board which would include representatives of the corporation, county council, Dún Laoghaire Corporation and the Garda authorities.

(Cavan): What has that got to do with it?

That was a recommendation. The only power sought in the Bill is to give the Minister power to transfer traffic functions to the road authority.

(Cavan): Is the road authority the county council?

Yes, or the corporation.

(Cavan): Under the subsection, the Minister could transfer a function from one county council to another.

I think so, but in theory only.

(Cavan): I think he could.

Is this the McGrath recommendation to which the Minister referred.

Yes. What Deputy Fitzpatrick suggested is certainly not intended.

(Cavan): I am sure it is not intended but it is certainly possible. If the road authority is the county council, this section gives the Minister power to transfer to a specified road authority functions of the appropriate local authority under section so and so, and to transfer to another road authority a function of a road authority under section so and so. What is meant by “transfer to a specified road authority”?

Perhaps I should read the sections involved. Section 93, for instance, the requisitioning of advance warning notices at bridges under subsection (9). It might be necessary to have these advance warning notices in one area controlled by a different road authority.

(Cavan): A bridge might be in one county and the advance notice might be required in another.

That could happen. Section 94, the consenting to, or requisitioning of, the erection of a sign to indicate a prohibition under section 11. Section 95, requisitioning the erection of a traffic sign under subsection (3) and consenting to erection of signs under subsections (5) and (10).

(Cavan): Sections 84 and 85.

Section 84, the making of bye-laws—subsection (1)—and temporary rules—subsection (2)—in relation to stands for street service vehicles and the giving of prescribed notice in relation to temporary rules—subsection (3) (b). Section 85, the giving of notices under subsections (1), (2), (3) and (4) as to stopping places and stands for buses. It is proposed only to transfer a present power of the Commissioner of the Garda to the road authority.

(Cavan): Paragraph (a) deals with a transfer from one road authority to another. It is paragraph (b) I am worried about.

It is quite clear under the section that this refers only to the type of cases I have mentioned.

(Cavan): That at least is understandable.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 62.
Question proposed: "That section 62 stand part of the Bill".

(Cavan): This is the section which provides for the removal, disposal and storage of vehicles which have been or appear to have been abandoned on a public road, or a car park, or have been parked in contravention of this Act or of a regulation, bye-law or rule thereunder. It is provided that regulations may be made which may, among other things, provide for the sale or disposal otherwise than by sale of the vehicles. The Minister may make regulations providing for the sale of vehicles and he may make regulations to provide for the disposal of the vehicles otherwise than by sale. I presume that what is in mind here is that an abandoned vehicle may have no commercial value and that it would be impossible to sell it, but I am sure it is unlikely that it would not have any value. Some safeguard should be written in there to provide that before the vehicle is disposed of otherwise than by sale, it should be offered for sale. In other words, it should not be left to the discretion of some member of the Garda to say it is a heap of scrap and not worth anything, and that it can be thrown into the sea or something like that. I should like to have some provision making it obligatory on the authorities to offer the vehicle for sale before disposal otherwise than by sale.

I think there is some peculiar drafting in subsection (4). When one comes across what appears to be a glaring mistake in a subsection, one wonders whether one is seeing correctly, because I am sure the parliamentary draftsman studied these things very closely before reducing them to print. Subsection (4) is very desirable. It provides for the giving of notice to the owner of a vehicle, if he can be ascertained, before the vehicle is sold, or for the retention of the vehicle for a reasonable time before disposal. I can appreciate that there might be a case where it would be impossible to serve notice on the owner, that he might dump the vehicle there on his way to America, or on his way to the airport en route to America. It may not be possible to serve notice on him, but subsection (4) provides:

Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, a vehicle removed under this section shall not be disposed of thereunder before the expiration of a period of six weeks from the date of the removal or two weeks after notice has been given in the prescribed manner, whichever is the longer.

It is the last four words which puzzle me—"whichever is the longer". Surely six weeks is the longer?

Not necessarily. If the notice were not given until five weeks after it was removed, then the two weeks after that would be the longer.

(Cavan): But there is no obligation to give notice.

The Minister may make regulations. Presumably the regulations will provide for the giving of notice, where it is possible to give notice.

(Cavan): The meaning of the subsection is, I think, that the vehicle shall not be disposed of for six weeks, unless two weeks notice has been given to the owner.

No. You cannot dispose of the vehicle in less than six weeks anyway.

(Cavan): Then, what is the value of the notice provision?

If notice were not given until the six weeks were nearly up, then the vehicle could not be disposed of for two weeks after that. Notice will be prescribed, but it may be difficult to give notice; it may take some time.

(Cavan): That clarifies the matter. It is not written into this section that notice must be given.

It will be prescribed in the regulations.

(Cavan): If it were written into the section, I could understand the wording of subsection (4) because it might become possible to give notice after five weeks. Identification might be made in five weeks and then there would have to be two weeks notice.

Regulations made under subsection (1) will provide for that.

(Cavan): The Minister and his advisers know that, but it is not in the section, and I, therefore, did not know it.

It will be possible to include the service of notice under the regulations made under subsection (1).

(Cavan): With that information, subsection (4) is understandable. I may be pardoned for not understanding it as it appears at the moment. Between now and Report Stage, I would ask the Minister to write something into the section to make it obligatory to give notice, if possible.

That can be done.

We all appreciate the hazards offered and the eyesores presented by abandoned vehicles. Local authorities have difficulty in dealing with this problem and it is only right and proper that provision should be made in this measure for the removal of abandoned and unlawfully parked vehicles. Abandoned cars have greatly detracted from the scenic beauty of a great part of our countryside. Even our beaches have not escaped. I notice in subsection (7) that a vehicle shall include a part of a vehicle or an article designed as a vehicle but not at the time of removal functioning as a vehicle. Is the reference there to any part of a car or truck which may be dumped? There will be authority under the section presumably to track down those responsible and have these dumped portions removed. This provision will be welcomed by all local authorities. It will be especially welcome to those interested in the Tidy Towns competition because the dumping of vehicles and parts of vehicles has constituted a great problem for these worthy people.

We, on this side of the House, support the Minister wholeheartedly in this. A way must be found for the disposal of the great numbers of vehicles that have hitherto been indiscriminately dumped here, there and everywhere. I should like the Minister to elaborate a little. The abandoned vehicle or the unlawfully parked vehicle will not be the most important matter because these will be very quickly removed. In respect of the dumping of vehicles or of parts thereof, I should like the Minister to indicate if he can what effect the section will have.

The section deals with the removal, storage or disposal of vehicles which have been parked or dumped on a public road or public car park. The other aspect to which the Deputy referred is dealt with under the Planning Acts in which there is authority to deal with the matter. This section enables the disposal of vehicles which have been dumped on public roads or public car parks.

Does the Minister not see the desirability of extending that?

There is power under the Planning Acts to deal with the dumping of cars elsewhere than on public roads or in car parks.

Is it as effective as it is in this measure?

I think so.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 63.

I move amendment No. 26:

In page 34, line 41, after subsection (1) to insert the following subsection.

"(2) Where an authorised person for the purposes of section 103 of the Principal Act finds a person and has reasonable grounds for believing that such person is committing or has committed an offence to which that section applies, the authorised person may demand of such person his name and address and, if such person refuses or fails to give his name and address or gives a name or address which is false or misleading, he shall be guilty of an offence."

Section 63 of the Bill amends section 103 of the 1961 Act—which provides for the system commonly referred to as fines on-the-spot—so as to enable authorised persons to affix the prescribed notices to vehicles and to deliver such notices to persons alleged to be committing offences. As things stand, authorised persons will have no power to demand the name and address of an alleged offender. This could complicate the working of the system and cause an inordinate amount of paper work. I feel, therefore, it is desirable that the power to demand the name and address of an alleged offender should be given to the authorised person. Refusal to give one's name and address will be an offence. It is not proposed that "authorised persons" should have any power of arrest.

(Cavan): I am opposed to the Minister's amendment because I am opposed to the entire section and I have put down an amendment to that effect. I had better reserve what I have to say for the section proper because it deals also with section 103 of the Principal Act. The reason for my opposition to the section and to the amendment proposed by the Minister is that I am against conferring the right to impose spot fines on people who are called authorised officers, the method of whose appointment and the extent of whose training we do not know. That is why I am against the amendment. I will say what I have to say in greater detail on the section.

In respect of the authorised persons referred to in section 63, has the Minister in mind persons other than gardaí?

(Cavan): Of course, he has.

It seems to be a pretty wide power to confer on traffic wardens. I do not wish to speak of them in a derogatory fashion because they do an excellent job. The only complaint I have to make in this respect is that we have not more wardens. Local authorities have power to appoint traffic wardens to do traffic regulation work. Many local authorities avail of those persons for traffic duty. They do an excellent job in ensuring safe crossing at dangerous junctions and in ensuring that children near schools, old people and the like, get safely across the streets. The difficulty is that though the power to appoint them is conferred on local authorities, many local authorities are unable to do so because of lack of financial accommodation and the likely burden on the rates of paying these people.

The "authorised persons" will be paid out of the Road Fund, but the Deputy is speaking of traffic wardens.

The Minister might make it clear whether it will be made easier for local authorities to appoint these people—whether there will be forthcoming the necessary accommodation to meet the cost of providing wardens.

That does not arise on the amendment. Perhaps the Deputy will get a more relevant opportunity of raising it.

I am concerned with the powers of these authorised persons. I should like to be satisfied that this relates specifically to traffic wardens and others. The appointment of traffic wardens or the authorised persons referred to here has something to recommend it in the sense that many people suggest that too much of the time of the gardaí is taken up doing trivial traffic duties of various kinds, including the sticking of dockets on windscreens involving on-the-spot-fines. People suggest that the gardaí would be better employed in following up crimes of a more serious nature. There is a lot to be said, therefore, for conferring more powers on traffic wardens and leaving gardaí free to deal with more serious crimes.

I cannot see how this is relevant on the amendment.

The amendment is to give powers to these people to request the name and address of a person alleged to have committed an offence.

I hope the Minister will clarify the matter on the section.

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That section 63, as amended, stand part of the Bill".

(Cavan): In order to deal with the section I have to deal briefly with section 103 of the Principal Act, the 1961 Act, which created the on-the-spot fines system. As far as I know, that system of imposing fines on-the-spot and collecting them without going to court has been applied only to parking offences. However, section 103 is much wider in its scope than that because it states that it shall apply to such offences under the Act as may be declared by the Minister by regulation to be offences to which the section applies. Therefore, the Minister may by order apply the on-the-spot fines system to any person covered by the Road Traffic Act, 1961, as amended by this Bill.

Section 103 of the Principal Act went on to provide that any member of the Garda Síochána could fine a person committing an offence to which the section applied, could do the things specified in the section—broadly speaking, collect a fine or impose a fine by attaching a notice to the vehicle et cetera. As I say, under the original section only members of the Garda Síochána who were trained police officers subject to strict discipline and supervision could operate this section.

What we are doing in section 63 is to confer those self-same powers on authorised officers, who are to be appointed, I think, by virtue of this section 63. It would appear in an indirect way from section 63 that these persons who are to act as authorised officers are to be appointed by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána. That would appear, from indirect inference, from the section. They are, I think, a different category from the wardens who are appointed by local authorities to help children to go to school safely about whom Deputy Treacy speaks.

I am not happy about handing over the power conferred by section 103 of the Principal Act on members of the Garda Síochána to these authorised officers. I should like to know a lot more about the authorised officers than I do at this stage. It is another case of giving a blank cheque. Subsection (2) of section 63 says:

The number of persons appointed by the Commissioner to be authorised persons for the purposes of section 103 of the Principal Act and the remuneration and other conditions of service of such persons shall be such as may be determined from time to time by the Minister for Justice with the approval of the Minister for Finance.

Subsection (3) goes on to provide that:

Neither the Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956, nor the Civil Service Regulation Act, 1956, shall apply to the situation of an authorised person for the purposes of section 103 of the Principal Act.

I want to make it clear that I am not making charges that these people will be appointed on a political basis. Maybe they will, but I am concerned otherwise about it. They will be appointed in a casual way. Members of the Garda Síochána are recruited on the result of an examination conducted by the Civil Service Commissioners and their conditions of appointment are fixed and noted. It would appear to me that these authorised officers will be appointed in a somewhat informal or casual way.

I should like to ask whether they will be full-time permanent independent civil servants, enjoying, as long as complying with the regulations and their conditions of employment, fixity of tenure and independence. I would hate to see powers given by section 103 of the Principal Act conferred on part-time officers who could be recruited and sacked at will. I might fear that people who were employed on that basis might think that the more on-the-spot fines they collected and the more detections they made, the securer their employment would be. I do not think that would be desirable.

If these powers are to be given over to these authorised officers, the authorised officers should be recruited on the same basis as the Civil Service is recruited. The Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956 and the Civil Service (Regulation) Act, 1956 should apply to them and they should not be specifically excluded from those Acts as they are excluded by subsection (3) of section 63. Before these officers, who as far as I know are of the warden type Deputy Treacy has in mind, are let loose on the city of Dublin or the country at large, they should undergo a course of training and instruction on how to deal with the public and how to enforce the powers conferred on them in a reasonable way.

They should be subjected to the same sort of discipline as that to which the Garda Síochána are subjected. Perhaps these authorised officers are dealt with in some other section, but if this section 63 creates the office for the first time, it certainly does so in a very off-hand, roundabout and informal manner.

I think I have made my position clear on this section. I am against conferring these quite extensive and indeed unknown powers on people to be appointed in this way. I say "unknown powers" because the Minister may decide at any time, in relief of the Garda Síochána for some other reason, to confer some other powers on them.

First of all, it is not intended to give traffic wardens who operate children's crossings these powers. These authorised persons might be called "parking wardens" and will be employed by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána, which is not the position in regard to traffic wardens who help children to cross the road.

With regard to the question of the powers conferred under section 103, Deputy Fitzpatrick says there are wide powers conferred under this, but, in fact, there is now experience as to how this has operated and it has in fact been confined to offences of a parking type that are either committed or not committed and that do not rely on any element of proof. I do not see how they could operate otherwise.

(Cavan): If the Minister may have misunderstood me, I am not objecting to the system but I am objecting to the method of imposing it.

We shall come to that. In regard to subsection (3) of the section this is necessary because it is intended that the authorised persons will be appointed by the Commissioner of the Garda. The provisions which are referred to in this subsection would require the appointment to be made by the Civil Service Commissioners by a competitive examination but it is desirable that they be appointed by the Garda Commissioner. The only power these parking wardens will have will be to stick a notice on a car or hand a notice to the driver, having first asked for his name and address. Most people appreciate the need for something like this. Deputy Treacy certainly does. The growing volume of vehicles on the road is making everincreasing demands on the Garda whose duty it is to enforce the Road Traffic Act and the stage has been reached, having regard to the crime position, that the Garda, particularly in Dublin, are becoming short-staffed and scarcely able to cope with their primary task of preventing and detecting crime and preserving law and order.

Much of the work of enforcing the Road Traffic Act, particularly in regard to parking, is of a very routine nature which could well be performed by persons other than gardaí who are highly and expertly trained in police duties proper. When we were faced with the choice of expanding the strength of the Garda Síochána considerably or recruiting a special traffic service whose personnel would not be required to have the same physical standards or standard of police training as the gardaí, it was natural to opt for the solution we are suggesting here. The Bill provides that it is only for this work of affixing notices on cars in respect of fines on-the-spot that these people will be appointed. It is intended to employ them in Dublin initially and details of hours of work, level of remuneration and so on have not been worked out, but the idea is to employ them on a part-time basis concentrating on peak hours when parking is a definite problem. It is possible that if the scheme is a success in Dublin it will be introduced in other cities and towns.

(Cavan): Am I correct in thinking that these new appointments are created by this section? That the posts are created by this section?

Yes, that is right. It is very necessary to enforce these parking regulations. In fact, the Deputy was making that case himself on other sections of the Bill. I think he complained these were not enforced——

(Cavan): Do not blame me for everything. I did not.

The fact is that parking regulations are not being adequately enforced at present because the Garda are not sufficiently well-staffed to do this work which is of a routine nature not requiring all the training and qualifications the gardaí have.

I would be concerned that these authorised persons might go beyond their responsibilities and duties and feel their security depended upon the number of stickers they pasted on cars on any given day. However, I presume they will be responsible people and will not have unbridled liberty of this kind and will exercise their power with due restraint and for the public good.

It is very desirable that the gardaí as such should be relieved of this menial work. However important it may be from a traffic point of view, it is menial work which the gardaí should not be engaged in when there are so many other more demanding duties to be performed. Earlier, I referred to the increase in the incidence of crime. The public are alarmed that we have a very serious incidence of knifing and thuggery and a situation in which little children and women are unable to go home at night safely. The gardaí could be engaged in dealing with serious crime of this kind instead of putting stickers on motor cars, and I think the Minister is right if he can find a substitute by having these authorised persons. I should hope that the idea will extend from Dublin to the country at large.

I have said how desirable it is to have traffic wardens and mentioned the inability of many of our local authorities to provide them on account of the cost involved. I understand there is provision in this measure for the payment of these authorised persons who would be appointed by the Garda Commissioner. Naturally, there are many local authorities who are as concerned with traffic problems as Dublin or the bigger cities are. The same problems of traffic congestion occur in smaller towns, the same bottle-necks and confusion and the same danger to life. Therefore, we hope that the provision of these authorised persons, if agreed on, would extend to all the towns in the country.

I share the anxiety of Deputy Fitzpatrick on the ground that these people are to be appointed at the discretion of the Garda Commissioner. We have become accustomed to the appointment of persons in an allegedly fair and impartial way by the Civil Service Commissioners, by the establishment of appointments boards and by way of a proper examination, a test of merit and ability to fill the vacant post, and I would be concerned about conferring such wide powers on a Garda Commissioner that he would have the right to appoint people of this kind. We are also concerned to ascertain the conditions under which these people will work, their wages, hours of work and the duties they will perform. The Minister says their duties will be specifically confined to catching up on these people who are wrongly parked or have parked for too long, getting names and addresses and putting stickers on windscreens. This would seem to be the limit of their duties and responsibilities. I am making a comparison between them and the traffic wardens and I find invariably that the traffic wardens are rather elderly men or women, mainly in the pensioner class and mainly retired. There are some, perhaps, not so old as to be on pension but they are disabled although still capable of carrying out a warden's duties. Here the salary scales or wages paid are, perhaps, not the normal wages paid to an active adult person.

I would like some clarification as to the kind of person who will be appointed, the hours of work and the salary scales which will apply. I wonder why their appointment should not be left to the local authorities, who appoint very many types of workers such as clerk-typists, staff officers, truck drivers and labourers? A fair and impartial method of appointment is operated under the County Management Acts. I ask the Minister if it might not be more appropriate to leave the appointment of these persons to the local authorities rather than vest that power in one person, the Commissioner of the Garda.

(Cavan): This section and the discussion on it discloses an alarming state of affairs, which I do not believe is appreciated by Deputies. We are creating here new police officers, or quasi-police officers, in a most off-hand way. Most people reading this section for the first time would come to the conclusion that these authorised officers had already been in existence, that it was a post that had been long since established. Deputy Treacy thought they were traffic wardens. I do not blame him. In fact, we are creating here a new police officer discharging police or quasi-police functions. As I say, we are doing it in a most off-hand manner.

I want to disagree completely and utterly with the Minister when he says that these people's business is going to be sticking notices on motor cars. Their functions are going to be to deal with such offences under the Road Traffic Act as the Minister may by regulation specify are to be dealt with by them. They may be dealing with parking offences today and may be using the breathaliser in six months time. They may be dealing with cases of careless or dangerous driving if the Minister so directs.

I do not want to be misunderstood. I am not against the enforcement of the parking laws; I am in favour of them. I am not against the enforcement of the provisions of the Road Traffic Act of 1961. I will support the Road Traffic Act, 1961, as amended by this Bill, when it is enacted. But I do not want to see these powers given to untrained persons who have no fixity of office and whose conditions of employment we do not know. The method of recruiting and dismissing them is not stated. I do not want to confer these powers on people who enjoy such terms of employment. The Minister says that were it not for subsection (3) of this section, these people would have to be appointed by the Civil Service Commissioners as a result of a competitive examination. What is wrong with that?

They are only wanted part-time.

(Cavan): They should not be part-time. It is utterly against them that they should be part-time. They are to be recruited and sacked at will. What is wrong with employing them as a result of a competitive examination? The Minister says it is desirable that they should be appointed by the Commissioner of the Garda. This is the first time the Commissioner has been asked to discharge such a function. Why is it desirable that they should be appointed by the Commissioner of the Garda? Has not the lowest paid typist in the Civil Service to be appointed as a result of an open competitive examination? Is it not right that she should be so appointed?

If these people are to be paid so little and are to be so unimportant as the method of employing and sacking them would indicate, then I do not want to have any hand, act or part in letting them loose on the citizens of this city or the people of any other town in Ireland. Surely they are to have reasonable conditions of employment and are to be paid a decent salary? If so, what is wrong with letting the ordinary procedure employed for recruitment to the Civil Service apply to them? Is this the beginning of the end of the Civil Service Commissioners and of the Civil Service (Regulation) Act of 1956? If so, it will not go unnoticed as far as I am concerned.

The Minister says they are part-time. I join with Deputy Treacy in saying that they should not be part-time. If in the city of Dublin, there are peak periods, valley periods and normal periods, they should be employed on a permanent basis. If there is not full-time employment for them in this sphere of activity, they could be used in some other sphere which would be covered by their conditions of employment. But let them be permanent. Do not let them be recruited on a commercial basis, on the basis that they believe the more people they prosecute, the more stickers they get rid of and the more pounds they get in, the more popular they will be and the better chance they will have of being permanent.

I really feel very strongly on this that it is a most undesirable suggestion, brought in on this section in a casual, off-hand way. I will certainly have down an amendment on Report Stage to provide that they be employed on a full-time and permanent basis and that they be recruited under the provisions of the Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956 and the Civil Service (Regulation) Act of the same year and I think that when the people realise what is being done here, they will be just as alarmed about it as I am.

I think that Deputy Fitzpatrick is being very imaginative again if he sees in this, as he claims to see, the end of the method of the Civil Service Commission and the Local Appointments Commission of appointing people. As I said earlier, the hours of work and so on have not yet been decided but it is obvious that these people will only be needed part-time. They will only be part-time employees. The effect of Deputy Fitzpatrick's suggestion to have them made permanent full-time employees would of course be to make the proposal impossible to operate because the question of financing this does arise. This proposal seems to be almost the same thing as requiring, instead of these, the expansion of the Garda Síochána Force so that they could adequately carry out this work of enforcing parking regulations as well as their more fundamental work of controlling crime. Obviously these people will only be needed at peak hours and the general intention is to avail of people such as retired gardaí and so on for this work, similar to the system that exists in Britain and which works satisfactorily there. Deputy Fitzpatrick professes to see at some future time these people dealing with breathalisers and offences such as dangerous driving. I cannot understand how he can foresee any such thing happening because all it is proposed to do here is to amend section 103 of the Road Traffic Act which gives power to do nothing except serve these notices and the only additional——

(Cavan): I do not want to interrupt the Minister, but if he will refer to subsection (1) of section 103, he will see that it can refer to any offence under the Act.

The only power it gives is to affix notices and that could hardly be interpreted as operating a breathaliser. The only additional power I am asking for in the amendment is the power to request the name and address. These people will not be enabled in any way to deal with these offences or any other offences, and even if a prosecution results from the affixing of one of these notices, the prosecution will be conducted by a garda officer and the parking warden, as we call him, will only be called as a witness in the case. The only power this is giving is to serve notice and to request the name and address. They are only needed for part-time work and there is no point in employing them on a full-time permanent basis.

When I read this section of the Bill, I could see nothing wrong with it, but having listened before I came into the House on the address system in the Whip's Office and having listened to the debate here in the House, it appears to take on a different complexion altogether, because it appears that according to what section 63 says, the duties they will carry out are the same as those of a member of the Garda Síochána and you are going to put in "or an authorised person". If that is so, it means then that a traffic warden's duty is the same as a guard's. If that is not so, I would like the Minister to point out to me where the distinction is made.

I would also like if he could point out to me where the specific work of a traffic warden is referred to. Even, as Deputy Fitzpatrick has said, the section of the parent Act does not specifically say that it must be only a warden's duty and the fact that these people are either going to be allowed to collect on-the-spot fines, or alternatively that the on-the-spot fine will disappear completely, does give them much wider powers than the Minister would have it appear to this House. I feel that there is a danger here in having a body appointed which the Minister refers to as part-timers. We see quite a lot of that and we know how the traffic warden system operates in other countries, particularly in England. Why have they not been described specifically as either traffic or parking wardens? Why has this other term "authorised persons" been given to them? There must be some reason for that.

I would not suggest, as some of my colleagues have done, that this is a job which should be done by the Local Appointments Commission, but I believe that there should be no suggestion whatever that we are going to have a selective body, selected by a political head of State, a political head who would pass on the information to the officer in charge, the Garda Commissioner, a list of people who might be appointed. If the Minister says this cannot be done, I am sure he remembers hearing of—if he does not remember himself—the Broy Harriers. Nobody will suggest that these part-timers could be anything like that but they could be selected people. This could be the thin edge of the wedge to introduce a system which would not be that which would be desired in this country.

They were very necessary to prevent the setting up of a Fascist State here, which they succeeded in doing.

The British say the Black and Tans were necessary and I put the two of them in the one category.

They were to deal with an organisation of Fascist thugs and they saved this State from dictatorship.

(Cavan): The Blueshirts preserved free speech in this country and we are proud of them.

The Broy Harriers saved this State from Fascist dictatorship.

(Cavan): You tried to go along and take away the rights of people to address public meetings and you are trying to take away democracy again now with the referendum.

Not at all; we are trying to establish real democracy.

I am referring to the fact that this could be on the same system as was established that time, and I do not think it was the right system and I do not think it would be a good idea if it were adopted again.

(Interruptions.)

They did not succeed and your attempt to get a change now will not succeed either.

The people will have the deciding voice. We are maintaining democracy.

You have changed your mind already on that and the people will make you change it again, so do not be codding yourself here. You changed your mind already and you will change it again. You will have to change it. You know that as well as anybody else.

We did not.

(Cavan): The Taoiseach stated that you did.

He stated it in answer to a question here.

We are getting off the Road Traffic Bill.

He stated it in answer to a question by me to the Minister for Justice.

Presumably I can discuss the question of the Blueshirts when Deputy Tully wants to discuss the Black-and-Tans and everything else.

(Cavan): You are ashamed of the part played by your Party, and I do not blame you.

I am talking about the selection of certain officers of the State and I do not think they should be selected on the same basis. I did not agree with the Black-and-Tans.

You agreed with the Blueshirts.

They were before my time.

They were not.

As far as I am concerned, whatever they did and whatever your Party did at that time is history to me. Apparently you should not dig too much into the question of the past, lest the Minister might get annoyed because it drags out things which happened in this State which they do not like to brag too much about. As far as I am concerned——

(Cavan): If this section can generate this sort of discussion, it is a highly undesirable section.

——if the Minister called those people either traffic wardens or indeed parking wardens and stated this was their job, I could see nothing wrong with their appointment. I think it is a good idea to release the gardaí for doing the job of detection. The thing I do not like about this is that there is in this section a proposal that those people will be authorised persons, authorised to do what is laid down in the original Road Traffic Act.

It is not.

Why is it so stated?

It is not so stated.

It is. Will the Minister let me finish and then he can perhaps explain? I am prepared to listen to a reasonable explanation from him, if he has a reasonable explanation on this. I do not want to see a situation arising where people will be given authority under our regulations. They will be appointed by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána who will simply pick you, you and you, and make them authorised officers to do certain things.

(Cavan): Instant officers.

The Minister must admit if they are going to deal with traffic, they must be entitled to collect fines. He says they are part-time. Does this mean that only a certain type of people will be eligible? He is not too clear on what their terms of appointment will be. He has not mentioned, or maybe just mentioned in passing, that a decision has not yet been made on their conditions of employment, hours of work and wages. These are important things if people are to be employed to do a job. The Minister says they are part-time. What does he mean by that?

We have part-timers in this country, pensioners who are doing part-time work and who are being paid with buttons. I do not like to see the State starting off with part-timers to do important work, paying them with buttons and saying it is all right because they do not have to get much. We will then finish up with an army of those people who feel that because they do not do very much, they were not supposed to do the job well because they were badly paid or alternatively, as has been pointed out by the two previous speakers, their jobs were determined on the number of stickers put on cars by them. When I read this section first, I could find nothing wrong. It was only when I compared it and listened to the arguments in this House, and particularly to what the Minister said, that I saw there was more in it than appeared from an ordinary reading. I am quite reasonable and if the Minister says that it is simply and solely a question of appointing wardens to do what he said recently, just putting stickers on cars and nothing else, that is a different thing. If they are to be authorised officers to do other things, then the system of appointment and everything else must come into the reckoning, and also how they are paid and what they are supposed to do.

It is obvious that what Deputy Fitzpatrick and Deputy Tully want is that the parking regulations should not be enforced.

That is a lot of nonsense.

Deputy Tully said that he has not read this section completely. Section 63, subsection (1) states:

Section 103 of the Principal Act is hereby amended by—

(a) the insertion in subsections (2) and (3) after "a member of the Garda Síochána" where that phrase first occurs of "or an authorised person" and after "the member" of "or authorised person",

(b) the insertion after subsection (7) of the following:

"(8) In this section ‘authorised person' means a person appointed by the Commissioner to be an authorised person for the purposes of this section."

(Cavan): Read section 103.

Since Deputy Tully refuses to read, or comes in here and discusses without reading, section 103, the only thing I can do is to read it for him. Subsection (2) and subsection (3) of this section——

(Cavan): Read subsection (1), which is the important one.

It is the important one.

I will read it. Subsection (2) and subsection (3) are really the important sections, but I will read the whole section for Deputy Tully since he is unable to read it himself. Subsection (1) of section 103 is:

This section applies to such offences under this Act as may be declared by the Minister by regulation to be offences to which this section applies.

I have dealt with that aspect. I have pointed out that this subsection only applies to parking offences. The subsection which it is proposed to amend is subsection (2) which says:

Where a member of the Garda Síochána——

—which is amended by adding "or an authorised person" and we continue—

finds a person and has reasonable grounds for believing that such person is committing or has committed an offence to which this section applies, the member——

—we now add "or authorised person"—

may deliver to such person a notice in the prescribed form stating—

(a) that such person is alleged to have committed that offence,

(b) that such person may, during a period of twenty-one days beginning on the date of the notice, make to a member of the Garda Síochána at a specified Garda Síochána station a payment of a prescribed amount accompanied by the notice,

(c) that a prosecution in respect of the alleged offence will not be instituted during the period specified in the notice, or, if the payment specified in the notice is made during that period, at all.

That is subsection (2). Subsection (3) reads:

Where a member of the Garda Síochána——

—It is proposed to add to that "or an authorised person"—

finds a mechanically propelled vehicle and has reasonable grounds for believing that an offence to which this section applies involving the use of the vehicle is being or has been committed, the member may affix to the vehicle a notice in the prescribed form stating—

(a) that that offence is alleged to have been committed,

(b) that a person liable to be prosecuted for the offence may, during a period of twenty-one days beginning on the date of the notice, make to a member of the Garda Síochána at a specified Garda Síochána station a payment of a prescribed amount accompanied by the notice,

(c) that a prosecution in respect of the alleged offence will not be instituted during the period specified in the notice, or, if the payment specified in the notice is made during that period, at all.

Then, after subsection (7), there is subsection (8) which defines an "authorised person". The only thing he is authorised to do is to serve the notice on an individual or to affix the notice to a vehicle, except that, in the amendment I am proposing, I am also asking that he be empowered to request the name and address from the individual.

(Cavan): I am glad we have got back to a more reasonable discussion of this section. I want to say, and I propose to prove, that section 103 of the 1961 Act, as enacted, was never intended to be confined to parking offences and contains the machinery for extending it to a much wider range of offences. In subsection (1) it applies “to such offences under this Act as may be declared by the Minister by regulation to be offences to which the section applies”. Therefore, even so far as the Garda Síochána are concerned, it may be that it applies only to parking offences today but it may be extended to a much wider range of offences to-morrow. Earlier, the Minister said that all these people would have to do would be to stick notices on motor cars.

Or serve notice.

(Cavan): I am coming to that. We have not had a word about serving until now.

Yes, you have.

(Cavan): In subsection (2), it is specifically stated:

Where a member of the Garda Síochána ——

—or, now, an "authorised person"—

finds a person and has reasonable grounds for believing that such person is committing or has committed an offence to which this section applies, the member may deliver to such person a notice in the prescribed form stating...

I say that that visualises the extension of this section to a wider range of offences. It is all right for the Minister to say that this authorised officer is only going to deliver this notice or to stick it on a car and that the person can pay the fine and that the duties of the authorised officer end there. The Minister did not go on to say, but I am sure we were meant to understand, that there was no obligation on the person to pay the fine if he did not want to do so and that he could go to court.

In effect, we are here constituting this authorised officer a police officer because he or she is the person who is going to make the detection. If the person who is accused says: "I am not guilty of the offence" and does not pay the fine within 21 days, or whatever it may be, and goes to court, the authorised officer will then come into court, as the expert witness, as the person who has made the detection, to give evidence to sustain the charge and that person has a very real interest in sustaining the charge. Human nature being just exactly as weak as human nature is, that person—the authorised officer—will be very concerned to get a conviction. He or she might feel that if the case is dismissed, it is a reflection on him or her. He or she is employed only on a part-time basis with his or her employment coming up for renewal. He or she might think that, if the charge was not sustained, it might be a reflection on him or on her. Is that not a dangerous road on which we are setting out? Is it not necessary that the persons upon whom we are conferring these powers should be people who have training in this type of police work, that they should enjoy public confidence, that they should be recruited as civil servants are recruited, even those in the lowest grades of the Civil Service? Is it not necessary that they should have what I would call fixity of tenure, for want of a better word? Is it not necessary that they will not be afraid of being sacked? Is it not necessary that they will not be very concerned always to come down on the side of their employer, the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána—in reality, the Minister— to ensure that their employment is continued? I put it seriously to the House that that is a dangerous set-up and that we are embarking on an undesirable innovation.

We can experiment, as we have done with the ban-ghardaí. We can appoint a small number in the city of Dublin, see how they work out, make them full-time. Indeed, there are other duties, I am sure, which the Garda Síochána do at the moment that could perhaps be entrusted to them if they were properly recruited and properly trained. There is quite a major principle involved here, something that goes far outside the bounds of this section we are discussing. I hope the discussion in this House has done something to ventilate it. I hope there will be second thoughts about it and that the matter will be further considered.

Subsection (3) provides:

(3) Neither the Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956, nor the Civil Service Regulation Act, 1956, shall apply to the situation of an authorised person for the purposes of section 103 of the Principal Act.

The Minister tells me, as his explanation for inserting that subsection, that, if it were not there, these people would have to be recruited by open competitive examination by the Civil Service Commissioners. What is wrong with that? In the next breath, the Minister tells me that these will be part-time officials. I cannot be expected, as a part-time politician, to have all the contents of the various Acts of Parliament at the tips of my fingers, but I have a feeling that the Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956, does not apply to part-time officials who are recruited only in a casual manner for a short time. I am not certain about that, but I have a feeling that, for example, officers in the Department of Agriculture who are employed for short periods are not required to be recruited by the Civil Service Commissioners. If I am right in that, it means that the people who drafted this subsection must have had in mind the employment of people who would, in the ordinary course of events, be subject to the provisions of the Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956, and the Civil Service (Regulation) Act, 1956: in other words full-time full-blown, permanent officers. If that is so, why are we excluding them from the provisions of this? The deeper we probe into this, the more mysterious, if not sinister, the suggestion becomes. I should like to know if the Civil Service Commissioners Act applies to part-time officers.

That section 63, as amended, stand part?

(Cavan): Is the Minister not going to tell us——

I dealt with the points raised.

(Cavan): I asked the Minister specifically if the Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956, applies to part-time officers. That is fundamental.

My advice is that unless this provision is in, the Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956, and the Civil Service (Regulation) Act, 1956, will apply to these persons. These Acts deal with the recruitment, appointment, control, conditions of service, etc., of civil servants and other public employees. They provide for recruitment by means of competitive examinations arranged by the Civil Service Commissioners, for general control by the Minister for Finance, for conditions and salaries, dismissal, and so on. As I pointed out, it is intended that these new authorised persons here will probably come to be described as parking wardens and will be part-time employees because they need to operate only part-time. It is provided that they be appointed by the Garda Commissioner and they will be under the control of the Garda Commissioner. Since their remuneration and conditions of service will be fixed by the Minister for Justice, with the approval of the Minister for Finance, the application of the 1956 Acts to these persons would be superfluous.

The fact of the matter is that if we could contemplate dealing with these parking regulations by the method suggested by Deputy Fitzpatrick and Deputy Tully, which is, in effect, by expanding the Garda Síochána to such an extent as to make it possible for them to do it, then I suppose we would do it, but the Garda Síochána at their present strength are just barely able to deal with their more fundamental duties. As I said already, this type of duty is purely routine and does not call for the same standard of training. They will be required mainly during peak hours. It is reasonable that we here should deal with this matter in an economic way just as it is dealt with in England under a Labour Government.

The Minister appears to be putting a little twist on the end of it. The traffic wardens in England were there before the Labour Government, and I am quite——

They are still there.

I am quite sure they are doing something which the Minister is anxious to avoid. Those are not all pensioners or of pensionable age. It does appear that the idea is that the Minister should be able to employ people who will be unable to stamp cards because of age or because they are such a short time employed that they would not be entitled to, anyway, and as far as redundancy payments are concerned, they would not have the necessary hours. The Minister is approaching this in a rather mean sort of way. I am not——

The Minister has to consider finance; Deputy Tully has not

The Minister has not to consider finance at all because it is not his job.

The Minister is anxious enough to say that he has no responsibility for Government decisions when he finds they are hurting him.

I never said that in my life.

Did you not?

The Minister was not prepared to accept responsibility a quarter of an hour ago for the stupid decision to put two alternative——

I certainly am, and if I am permitted to deal with it as Deputy Tully was allowed to deal with it——

That is a reflection on the Chair.

(Interruptions.)

The Minister for Justice said one thing and the Taoiseach said another.

The Taoiseach said that the Government had decided——

The Minister for Justice told me on television that the Government had decided——

The Taoiseach said today that the Government had decided and the Minister for Justice was authorised to say what he did say. The Government decided, as the Opposition were so easily confused, not to confuse them.

(Cavan): The free press made you change your minds.

This is not relevant.

The question proposed to be put is practically the same as that put in 1959 and despite the long debate at that time in the Dáil, the Seanad, and in the free press, this was never adverted to—that the public were confused and that the press were confused.

At this stage, Deputy Tully——

There was only one question then but there are two now. The position is that the Minister apparently is trying to suggest that he can employ——

(Interruptions.)

I did not mention the Broy Harriers.

The Minister, as Minister for Local Government, has the job of putting this Bill through the House. He has no more responsibility. The Department of Justice will be dealing with it from that out and all I am asking is this: would the Minister agree to have another look at it, and as it is the thing now for Ministers and the Government to change their minds—and I agree that that is a good thing when they find they are making mistakes—and see if it is necessary to say in the section what those people are going to be and to say whether or not they are to be people appointed in such a way that they will not all be pensioners? It does appear that this is being set up for a particular class. I have no objection at all to pensioners, if they are able to do the job, getting that job, but I hate to see them preyed on by employers, particularly the State, who love to get these people who, because of their miserly pensions, can do with a few, a very few, extra shillings.

The Minister is saying that we are trying to see that the guards will be taken off detection work and put on to matters such as the parking of cars. That is all nonsense and the Minister on reflection will see that. We are as anxious as he is to see the matter dealt with sensibly, and indeed more anxious than he, and we are asking him to be reasonable about this. We do not want people who are not trained to do this type of work dumped out and given authority, particularly if their appointment is a political one.

The only new point raised by Deputy Tully was in regard to the decision to have two amendments of the Constitution instead of one and I take it that since that is the only new point, I can deal briefly with it.

I understand that the Minister had replied to the point raised by Deputy Tully.

I do not think I had. He wants to have his mind clarified on the matter and I should like——

(Cavan): On a point of order, it is one thing to interject as Deputy Tully did about something that is not entirely relevant to the debate but another thing for a Minister of State to stand up and announce that he is going to deal in a formal way with a matter which is extraneous and completely irrelevant.

That was the only new point. May I deal with the Broy Harriers?

We would be getting away completely from the section.

Deputy Tully is still confused.

Not as confused as the Minister for Justice, Deputy Lenihan, was, or not as confused as the Taoiseach was today.

(Cavan): On section 63, as amended——

The Minister for Justice was authorised to say what he said.

(Cavan): We will have all the time we want in which to debate that, to our hearts' content, up to next June.

Will the Deputy deal with section 63?

(Cavan): I am sorry to have to get up on section 63 again. Subsection (3) proposes to exclude from the Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956 and the Civil Service (Regulation) Act, 1956, the appointments which are to be made here. When I first raised that I was told that the reason was that the Minister did not want to make the appointments subject to those Acts. I then accused the Minister of creating permanent appointments and excluding them from those Acts enacted by the Oireachtas for making appointments. The Minister then told me that these were part-time people that he was appointing. On further consideration, I asserted that the Acts I referred to did not apply to part-time appointments and I asked the Minister to deal with that and to clarify the position. I asserted that the Acts did not apply to part-time appointments. The Minister has not contradicted that and I am asserting it now as a fact, but if the Minister genuinely intends to appoint part-time authorised officers, which would be a most undesirable thing, it would not be necessary for him to put in subsection (3), because the Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956 would not operate. It is obvious that what the Minister has in mind is to appoint full-time, permanent, whole-time officials, to exclude the Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956 from their appointment and I now assert that it is, in fact, what I thought it was, the thin end of the wedge to abolish the Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956, in the making of public appointments of a permanent nature in this country. Nothing could be more obvious.

It is an untruth, deliberate untruth, by Deputy Fitzpatrick, and he knows it.

(Cavan): I do not know it.

He does not think that for one moment. He is telling a deliberate untruth. He knows it is untrue.

(Cavan): I am not telling an untruth. I have annoyed the Minister. The Minister is annoyed because he has been caught out in creating this new police force in this off-hand manner, buried away in section 63 of this Bill and about four or five lines in the explanatory memorandum. We are not to have them subject to the Civil Service Commissioners. I do not speak of the Local Appointments Commission, which is a totally different body from the Civil Service Commissioners who recruit the Garda Síochána, who recruit the typists in the Civil Service, who recruit all the grades of the Civil Service, no matter how low or how high. I am against that and I want to assert now that that is what it is proposed to do. It is the first time, I venture to suggest——

On a point of order, I have stated that this is not intended and it is usual when a Minister gives his word that this is not intended, that a Deputy should accept it. It is not intended. These are people who are to be part-time employees—employed on a part-time basis.

The Minister has given that assurance.

(Cavan): Then, if the Minister says that, I am asking now, as a matter of fact and as a matter of law, if it is the Minister's intention to make these people part-time employees, why does he not agree to delete subsection (3) of section 63 and what is the necessity for it?

Because they are intended to be part-time.

(Cavan): I venture to put it to the House that it is the first time a section or a subsection has been put into an Act of Parliament in this country to exclude the Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956, and the Civil Service (Regulation) Act, 1956, from a category of employees properly brought within its ambit. I think I am not going too far when I say that that is what is being done here. We are in this subsection excluding from the provisions of the Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956, and the Civil Service (Regulation) Act of the same year a category of employees who, were it not for this subsection, would be brought within it. That demands an explanation and I do not think I can be accused of going too far if I say that, either intentionally or otherwise, the thin end of the wedge is being driven into these Acts.

The Minister has asserted that this has not the intent the Deputy is alleging.

(Cavan): I am saying, Sir, that that may be so, but I am saying, whether it is intentional or whether it is not, and with all due respect, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, it is one thing for the Minister to get up and deny something that has been asserted against him but it is another thing when we are here on the Committee Stage of a Bill, debating it line by line, and I say with the greatest respect to you and with the greatest respect to the Chair which you occupy, that I am not bound to accept the Minister's assertion on everything he says in it and that if that is to be so ruled, it is nearly the beginning of the end of the debate on Committee because if I say one thing and the Minister gets up and says that is not so, I have to sit down.

Nobody is suggesting that.

(Cavan): I am asserting, as a matter of fact, that this is the first time that we have had this type of provision put into an Act and if we have it put into this Bill today, there is no reason why it would not be put into another Act to-morrow and the section which we are dealing with now held up to this House as a precedent for it. I am certainly going to put down a formal amendment on Report Stage to delete subsection (3) and put it into the section in reverse, lest there be any doubt about it, and to say that the provisions of these Acts shall apply to the appointments.

I cannot see why the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána should be burdened or embarrassed, as embarrassed he would be, by the power that is being thrust on him by this section. It is even worse, I think, for the Commissioner of the Garda to be asked to do it than for the Minister to be given this power because, at least, we could discuss the Minister's activities on the Estimate for his Department. We cannot discuss the appointments which might be made by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána on the suggestion of the Minister or one of his colleagues.

Subsection (3) of this section, read in

Neither the Civil Service Commissioners Act, 1956 nor the Civil Service Regulation Act, 1956, shall apply to the situation of an authorised person for the purposes of section 103 of the Principal Act.

I have established, I think, beyond all doubt that but for that section these appointments would be subject to these Acts and that only permanent, whole-time appointments are subject to these Acts. Therefore, what we are doing, in this instance at any rate, is to by-pass those Acts which were established for the purpose of appointing civil servants and such employees so that the public in general would have confidence in the method of appointment, so that the public in general would not think that people got these jobs for political reasons or other unsavoury reasons, and so that the public would be satisfied, as they are satisfied, that the Civil Service Commissioners employ the best people as a result of open competitive examination.

If the Minister thinks that these people are going to cost so little, would he mind telling us—and I am sure he has given it some thought—what he proposes to pay them? Has he any ideas about that? Does he propose to pay them by the week or by the hour or by the year? Are they to be appointed by the week or by the hour or by the year? I think all these things are very material, very material in view of what has come to light as a result of this discussion.

I am candid enough to admit that when I read this section first I thought these authorised officers had already been appointed or there was some machinery for appointing them before, because they are just casually referred to as authorised officers as if we knew them all our lives, as if we had been dealing with them since the Road Traffic Act of 1961 came into operation. As a result of the discussion here tonight we find we are creating them for the first time and in spite of the method by which they are being created, these people will detect offences and will go to court and prosecute these offences——

They will not.

(Cavan):——just as a member of the Garda prosecutes them. I think the Minister should have second thoughts about this thing, and I hope that as a result of this debate he will be driven to have second thoughts about it.

I said that these people would not be full-time employees, that they would be part-time employees. I can do no more than state it again. Deputy Fitzpatrick does not believe it or pretends not to believe it. The Civil Service Commissioners Act of 1956 which deals with the method of appointing civil servants does not necessarily appear to be excluded from applying to part-time employees. The other Act, that is, the Civil Service Regulation Act which it is intended to provide should not apply is not required because of subsection (2) of section 63 which will apply instead of it. This Act is a fairly long Act dealing in detail with such matters as retirement, suspension, absence from duty, et cetera, and all these things are not applicable to the kind of job envisaged under this section. As I said, if this could be dealt with and if work could be found on a full-time basis for the people it is proposed to appoint, then that method would be adopted, but this problem is such that it is considered necessary to have such people to deal with it only at peak hours. Only part-time people are required, and that is all it is intended to employ.

(Cavan): I take it the authorised officer referred to in the amendment to section 15 of the Principal Act is a different brand of authorised officer?

Yes, it is.

(Cavan): You will get them confused.

It is very easy to confuse Fine Gael these days.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 64.
Question proposed: "That section 64 stand part of the Bill."

(Cavan): The purpose of amending section 112 of the Principal Act is to make the person who goes joy-riding in a motor car which he knows has been taken without the consent of the owner, but which he does not drive himself, guilty of an offence. That is a good thing, because the people who go riding in these cars are just as guilty as the driver. They probably conspire to take the car and then go off in it. As I say, I am in entire agreement with the amendment.

Question put and agreed to.
SCHEDULE.

I move amendment No. 27:

In the heading to column (1), to delete "Section or subsection amended" and to insert "Provision amended".

This is purely a drafting amendment. It is to bring the heading to column (1) of the Schedule into line with the wording of section 6 of the Bill.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 28 not moved.

I move amendment No. 29:

In page 35, after the amendments to section 3, to insert the following:

"

Section 11.

The insertion after ‘towing gear’ in subsection (6) of ‘and any device which is capable of being used to indicate the existence of, or to frustrate the operation of, electronic or other apparatus being used to give indications from which the speed at which a person was driving can be inferred’.

This was discussed with No. 4.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 30:

In page 35, after the amendments to section 16, to insert the following:

"

Section 17.

The insertion after subsection (2) of the following subsection:

‘(3) The jurisdiction relating to the recovery under this section of the amount of any extraordinary expenses incurred by a road authority in repairing a road shall, concurrently with the High Court, be exercised at the election of the plaintiff by—

(a) the judge of the Circuit Court for the time being assigned to the circuit or, as may be appropriate, the justice of the District Court for the time being assigned to the district, where the damage was done, or

(b) the judge of the Circuit Court for the time being assigned to the circuit or, as may be the District Court for the time being assigned to the district, where the defendant or one of the defendants resides or carries on business.'

Under section 17 of the 1961 Act expenses incurred by a road authority in repairing damage caused to a road by extraordinary traffic are recoverable from the person by whom or on whose order the traffic was conducted as a simple contract debt in any court of competent jurisdiction. Section 17 is substantially a re-enactment of the Public Roads (Ireland) Act, 1911. By virtue of the Courts (Supplemental) Provisions Act 1965, the jurisdiction of the Circuit Court in relation to claims under the 1911 Act was exercisable, at the election of the plaintiff, that is, the road authority, by the judge of the circuit where the damage was done or the judge of the circuit where the defendant or one of the defendants resides or carries on business. I am advised that when section 17 of the Road Traffic Act of 1961 became law the words "recoverable as a simple contract debt" could operate to preclude a road authority from electing to have a claim dealt with by the judge of the circuit where the damage was done. This was not intended, and this amendment is designed to restore the position as to the venue of trial which existed prior to the passing of section 17 of the 1961 Act.

(Cavan): I think the Minister has dealt with paragraph (a) but not with paragraph (b). I do not know whether we are giving unlimited jurisdiction in this type of case or increasing the jurisdiction of the District Court and the High Court.

It will be within the ordinary limits of the jurisdiction of the Circuit Court only. In fact, it deals only with venue.

(Cavan): The venue is where the damage is done or where the defendant resides.

I am advised that section 17 of the Road Traffic Act, 1961, could operate to preclude the road authority from electing to have a claim dealt with by a judge of the Circuit Court in the area where the damage was done and it is necessary to amend it.

(Cavan): Paragraph (a) refers to the judge of the Circuit Court for the time being assigned to the circuit or, as may be appropriate, the justice of the District Court for the time being assigned to the district, where the damage was done. Paragraph (b) refers to the district where the defendant or one of the defendants resides or carries on business. I was not clear whether we were conferring unlimited jurisdiction or increasing the jurisdiction of the District Court and the Circuit Court. Probably we are not.

It deals only with venue.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 31 is consequential on amendment No. 14.

(Cavan): I think I will move it.

I thought it was dealt with.

It was dealt with, with No. 14.

(Cavan): I will not move the amendment then but I take it we will go through the Schedule item by item.

Amendments Nos. 14, 16, 17 and 18 were discussed together and amendment No. 31 is consequential on amendment No. 14.

If amendment No. 14 fell, this amendment would have to fall.

(Cavan): I think I would be entitled to discuss the amendment to section 26 of the Principal Act because I do not think it would be reasonable to give us the Schedule as a sort of package for a package decision. There are things in it to which we might agree and others to which we might disagree.

The Deputy is allergic to package deals.

(Cavan): I am suspicious of them. This is a very long Schedule and I want to be clear that when we dispose of the amendments, we can go back to the Schedule and deal with each amendment which affects the Schedule.

We deal with the Schedule as a whole, as amended.

Amendment No. 31 not moved.

Amendments Nos. 8, 9, 11, 32 and 34 were discussed together.

(Cavan): Is it in order to discuss this amendment now?

It has already been discussed. It is consequential on amendment No. 8.

I move amendment No. 32:

In page 36, to delete the amendment of section 29.

Amendment agreed to.

(Cavan): I move amendment No. 33:

In page 36, to delete the amendment of section 36.

Section 52 of the Road Traffic Act, 1961, deals with careless driving and section 53 deals with dangerous driving. I think that a second or subsequent offence under section 53, dealing with dangerous driving, carried a consequential disqualification but that any number of convictions for careless driving did not carry a consequential disqualification which, of course, is a very heavy penalty. The White Paper says that we have introduced in the Bill a new offence of careless driving. With all respect, I do not think we have, because the marginal note to section 52 of the 1961 Act describes the offence created by that section as careless driving.

It is not the easiest thing in the world to follow the amendments made to the Road Traffic Act, 1961, by this Schedule. I want to ask the Minister if I am correct in this view. I think the object or the effect of the amendment to section 36 of the 1961 Act is to provide for a consequential disqualification in the case of careless driving. Before I go any further, I should like to know from the Minister if I am right.

On a second offence.

(Cavan): Then I was correct. I think that is going too far. Careless driving may be no more than an error of judgement. There is nothing deliberate about it.

The purpose of the amendment is to put a person who is guilty of a new offence in relation to drink and driving in the same position as a person convicted of the corresponding existing offence so far as endorsement is concerned.

(Cavan): What is the next one?

It also concerns the new offence of careless driving.

(Cavan): That is the one I am at.

This new offence will be more serious than the existing offence of driving without due care and attention or reasonable consideration. The penalties applying are being increased above those which apply to the existing offence under section 52.

(Cavan): Which section creates it?

Section 49.

(Cavan): Of the Bill?

Section 49, yes.

(Cavan): My views about the new statutory offence are known and now I want to deal with this new offence of careless driving created under section 49. The Minister has stated and the White Paper has stated that it is a more serious offence than the old offence of careless driving. I do not agree with that because section 52 of the old Act provided:

A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place without due care and attention or without reasonable consideration for other persons using the place.

The new section provides:

A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place without due care and attention.

It could be argued that the wording of section 52 of the old Act is stronger. To put a person off the road for 12 months for a second offence under this new provision would be, in my opinion, a very serious matter. A lorry driver, for example, might be guilty of a slight error of judgment.

That would still be driving without reasonable consideration. This is separating the two.

(Cavan): Who decides which is which?

The courts.

But surely the charge would have to be laid under one or the other.

(Cavan): Am I correct in thinking section 52 of the 1961 Act goes because section 48 provides:

The Principal Act is hereby amended by the substitution of the following section for section 52.

Yes, and section 49 then comes into it.

(Cavan): Section 49 provides:

A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place without due care and attention.

As far as I know, that is the least charge that may be preferred for careless or dangerous driving.

No. Section 48.

(Cavan): It is very difficult.

It will have the penalties that apply under section 52 and section 49 will carry heavier penalties.

(Cavan): That is not so bad but, nevertheless, it is very difficult. I am confining myself now to the Bill. Section 48 provides:

A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place without reasonable consideration for other persons using the place.

Section 49 provides:

A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place without due care or attention.

It would be a matter of luck, I think, as to which of those sections a person would be charged under; it would depend on the superintendent directing the prosecution. Candidly, I should not like to be the superintendent who would have to decide under which section the charge should lie. A reasonable superintendent would differentiate, though he would have difficulty in doing it; if you had another type of superintendent, he might say: "The heck with it. I will throw section 49 at them and let the court make up its mind." Then the district justice would be in difficulty trying to decide which section the facts of the particular case fitted. What I am really concerned about is that someone guilty of a minor error of judgement could be convicted twice under section 49 and, if he is, his licence goes for 12 months. Am I right in thinking the Minister dropped the provision enabling him to restore licences?

(Cavan): The lorry driver who is convicted twice under section 49 of a comparatively minor offence can be put off the road for 12 months. That would be a very serious penalty to impose on such a man.

The Deputy, I am sure, knows the difficulty there was in getting convictions under section 53. This, in fact, creates a middle offence, as it were, between the minor one and the dangerous driving one.

(Cavan): I was often engaged in persuading all concerned to accept a plea under section 52 instead of section 53, and that did not carry disqualification.

There is need for an intermediate offence.

(Cavan): But it is an intermediate offence carrying a penalty heretofore applicable only to dangerous driving.

That is so, but only on the second offence.

(Cavan): I still think it is going a bit far. We all, I think, know what is meant by dangerous driving. Irrespective of whether or not people are injured, there is a certain recklessness involved in dangerous driving. “Without due care or attention” we take to mean nothing much more than an error of judgement.

But now there will be something in between.

(Cavan): We will put them off the road for a second offence of driving without due care and attention.

(Cavan): That is going too far. Am I correct in thinking the offence of dangerous driving carries disqualification only on the second offence?

Yes, if there is no serious injury.

(Cavan): That is what I thought. As the law stands a person convicted of dangerous driving need not have his licence suspended on the first occasion provided there is no serious injury done. If there is serious injury, it is an indictable offence and he goes to the Circuit Court. It is only if he commits a second offence that his licence goes. Now we are creating a lesser offence and imposing exactly the same penalties as those imposed for dangerous driving. That is going too far. It could work an injustice. Discretion could be left to the district justice. We will drive district justices into falling back on section 48 in cases in which they see an injustice will be done. The charge under section 49 will be dismissed and reframed under section 48.

No. It was because they were applying the criteria that formerly applied to manslaughter that made it necessary to introduce this offence.

Progress reported: Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 22nd February, 1968.
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