Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 24 Apr 1968

Vol. 234 No. 2

Committee On Finance. - Resolution No. 9—General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.—(Minister for Finance.)

The Budget presented yesterday and the review contained in the documents circulated prior to the Budget on the Second Programme indicate the urgent need for a review of the results achieved, for a realistic revision of the targets laid down, and for a decision by the country in general and by the Government, in particular, to adhere to the aims and objectives of whatever programme is decided upon.

The review published and the comments made in the course of the Budget yesterday indicate clearly that the aims and targets laid down in the Second Programme were not realised. The failure of the Programme to achieve the objectives laid down and to measure up to the claims made for it have been the subject of comment for a considerable time. These comments have been expressed both by Deputies and by commentators who have written or spoken about the Second Programme.

The publication entitled Review of Progress deals with this aspect of the matter and comments on the nonrealisation of basic assumptions and conditions. It says that some of the factors could not be controlled but that, in the main, the factors responsible were amenable in varying degree to internal influence. It goes on to express the view that national commitment to the Programme was not sufficient to prevent the emergence of disruptive factors. It expresses again the comment made earlier that the measures taken to put the Programme into effect must not only be coordinated but be consistent with the Programme's objectives. It repeats the view which was stated previously that the primary responsibility rested on the Government for creating conditions conducive to the success of the Programme.

The main failure of the Second Programme, which was commented upon here yesterday by Deputy O'Higgins, was the failure of the Programme to increase employment, which, it was clearly indicated by Deputy Lemass when he was Taoiseach, would be the acid test of its success. The figures published and the results of the Programme to date indicate that in respect of employment, in respect of new jobs provided, not merely has the Programme not succeeded in providing increased employment but that at the end of 1967, compared with the beginning of the Programme, as shown in the Review of 1967 in Table IX of the publication incorporating Economic Statistics, there were fewer people at work, that there had been a drop from 1,071,000 at work in 1964 to 1,063,000, that at the same time the numbers out of work had increased from 53,000 to 57,000, and that the change in the method of compiling the statistics did not hide the facts or obscure the bad picture. Only the other night it was announced in Britain that last year 33,000 new immigrants secured employment in Britain, so that under the test which was originally laid down for this Programme, the Programme has clearly failed to measure up to the claims that were made for it.

The significant fact emphasised in the report is that, while the assumptions made when the Programme was laid down were not realised, these depended on internal rather than external causes. It is important to note that the capital expenditure undertaken in respect of the Programme has exceeded the targets originally laid down and that the expenditure on the Programme not merely exceeded the estimates, but that the percentage of gross national product taken in taxation increased from 23.5 per cent in 1963-64 to 28.2 per cent in 1967-68, compared with a projected 26.2 per cent for 1970.

In the course of a number of comments that have been made and particularly in the report which the Minister for Finance presented yesterday in the Budget, credit was taken for the fact that economically 1967 could be regarded as a satisfactory year. In stating that fact, sufficient attention has not been given to the slack that existed and to the disappointing returns in respect of 1965 and 1966. Sufficient attention was not given to the fact that if last year exports of agricultural products, especially of cattle and dead meat, increased, this country was in the fortunate position that arising from the foot and mouth epidemic in Britain, there was a unique demand for live-stock and meat from here and that not merely did that result in increased numbers but in increased prices as well. The fortuitous circumstances which gave rise to that situation, and which to a considerable extent still continue, were due to a variety of causes completely outside the sphere of action of Government policy and affected the economy here without any action on the part of the Government or any result of arrangements made by the Government.

This situation, while providing a temporary advantage, does not or cannot obscure the problems which have to be faced and which have been accepted with extraordinary complacency in the Budget Statement. The failure of the Second Programme and the complacent attitude in the Budget Statement, contrast sharply with the analysis of the problems facing this country and with the urgency of providing a solution, which are covered in a report of the Federation of Irish Industries entitled "Challenge—Industry and Free Trade". This document analyses in great detail all aspects of industrial and export problems and in its conclusions and recommendations, expresses the concern of the representatives of firms and trade bodies who contributed to the compilation of the report. The Budget presented yesterday gave, as was expected, certain social welfare increases, provided compensation for the increase in the cost of living and provided for an increase in pensions for various categories of retired public service pensioners. In so far as providing incentives, or in so far as providing a plan to meet the challenge of the 1970s, there is in this Budget no systematic, comprehensive or properly ordered contribution to the problems which affect industry. According to the views which have already been expressed, it fails to meet the demands made either by the NFA or the ICMSA. In fact, other than a reference to external difficulties and a complaint about international problems, the Budget presents an attitude that this country can continue to trade successfully and to operate in conditions which take no account of the keen competition which must be faced either inside or outside the EEC.

The report prepared by the Federation of Irish Industries deals with a variety of problems affecting industry. It lays particular stress on the need to provide for the keen competition which must result, as the report clearly states, whether this country becomes a member, or whether this country and Britain become members of the EEC by 1975, from the situation which will result for industry under the Free Trade Area Agreement when existing protection ceases in 1970 or 1971. The report urges that action should now be taken not only by industry itself but by industry and the Government, to study how a research and development programme had best be organised. It goes on to point out that:

The proper question is not whether this or that product can continue to be produced competitively here, but rather whether it is the one on which maximum profit can be earned in the new free market. Thinking of our present products in terms of their defensibility against outside competition is an instinctive reaction derived from the protectionist tradition.

The report goes on to make specific recommendations in respect of assistance, particularly for exports, for consultation with industrial representatives and for a unifying of the methods of assisting industry by combining the efforts of a number of bodies.

It recommends, and I believe this is appropriate not merely for industry but must be also considered in relation to agriculture, that on the State's side, in addition to the drawing together of the various services dealing with industry, the Government will need to provide for direct representation of industry through its representative organisations on the bodies planning and operating the various services and aids. It states:

In the past, largely because of the absence of appropriate representative machinery, it has been the practice for industry representatives on bodies such as Córas Tráchtála, Institute for Industrial Research and Standards and the Kilkenny Design Workshops, to be selected directly by the Government to act as individuals. This system will have to be changed in future if industry and these services are to work together to agreed policies and plans.

This report, as I said, is prepared by persons directly concerned with the problems which face us, and who are conversant with the difficulties which have arisen, and are seeking to provide solutions to the various problems of marketing, research and analysis, and of small industries to present a unified market and research system and a unified selling organisation.

The recommendations made in that report in respect of industry are also appropriate in respect of agriculture. The most notable feature of yesterday's Budget was the failure to provide any incentive in respect of agriculture.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The increase of 12/-per cwt. for the A Special and A pigs is approximately one-third of what was requested by the NFA. As one individual described it, it is a step in the right direction. Nothing was granted in respect of milk despite the substantial increase in production costs. This failure evoked a protest from a person normally not unfriendly to Fianna Fáil, the secretary of the ICMSA. It also evoked a protest from the NFA. Despite the measures taken by a number of bodies in regard to this problem and the efforts made by firms processing or utilising milk products, the situation has now developed in which we have a substantial surplus, with rising costs of production, and, so far as one can gather, the Government are satisfied to allow the increased prices obtaining in respect of cattle to cover up for the needs of the dairy farmers.

This brings forcibly to mind the question of what the Government and the appropriate bodies are doing about marketing and, if markets are not available, what decision will be taken to change to other lines of production. If ever a certificate was granted to mark the death of the NAC, yesterday's failure to increase payments in respect of milk spells the end of that body as a body entitled to any consideration. This has been emphasised by the Federation of Irish Industries report. It has been emphasised by the reaction to yesterday's decision. A body representing, or purporting to represent, either the farmers or industry cannot be handpicked merely because those so picked are Fianna Fáil supporters. That method is entirely unsuitable in the case of a body facing the problems these bodies will have to face, the problems which those whom they are supposed to represent are endeavouring to solve. It is ridiculous to expect that a handpicked body selected because of political affiliations can be regarded as either competent or sufficiently energetic to push the case and argue the interests of those whom they are supposed to represent.

In the Minister's speech yesterday and in the reports published of comments made by the Central Bank and other financial interests, there appears to be a sort of self-satisfied reaction because, it is alleged, last year was such a good year. If we examine the reports in the review of 1967 and the outlook for 1968, we find that the net output from agriculture last year of £111.4 million was almost identical with the net output four years ago, in 1964, when it was £111.8 million. In the intervening years, there was a drop and net output has only now caught up on the deterioration which occurred in the intervening years. The output for last year is, in fact, only comparable with that of 1964.

The Budget, while providing no incentive in respect of industry, with the exception of some promises in regard to minor tax changes, has failed to provide any of the incentives requested in respect of agriculture. This year every local authority was faced with the unpleasant task of implementing a very substantial increased demand for rates. The situation was a cause of concern to all local authorities and, in particular, to health authorities, especially the authority here in Dublin. This Party has consistently urged and recommended an appropriate and workable scheme for health services based on a graded scheme of contributions and a graded scheme of benefits. That policy was published in great detail many years ago. The Government at the time and the Minister for Health, in particular, resisted that proposal. Yesterday, the Minister for Finance admitted that:

The cost of the health services is rising so rapidly that it is necessary to consider alternative methods of finance in order to reduce the amounts now charged on the tax-payer and the ratepayer. A detailed examination is being undertaken of the feasibility of introducing an insurance or contributory scheme to finance at least part of the cost of the services available to the middle-income group. It will extend to the question of eliminating the hospital charges for which middle-income patients are now liable.

This is the latest recognition, and the latest adoption, by Fianna Fáil of large chunks of Fine Gael policy. Time will show the extent to which this policy will be implemented.

This year the County Dublin rate increased from 54s 3d in 1967-68 to 60s in 1968-69. The health charges last year were 13s 9d; this year they are 18s 3¾d. In Dún Laoghaire, the rate last year was 59s. Health charges were 20s 9.8d and, this year, the rates have increased to 67s 3d and health charges have increased from 20s 9.8d to 26s. This is a fact which has been repeatedly brought to public attention by us because we recognise that the present system of financing health services is not merely inequitable but entirely unsatisfactory in the cover it provides and in the range of services made available to those sections most in need of such services. It has taken six to seven years to get that home to the Government. Now we are promised an examination of the feasibility of a contributory system of health insurance. It is only reasonable to express the hope that this examination will not be shelved, deferred or frustrated in the same way as the examination of the rating system report was deferred or suppressed. We have consistently argued that the provision of adequate health services can be based only on a contributory insurance scheme.

The provision made in the Budget for social welfare recipients represents monetary compensation for the increase in the cost of living but the Budget omits to deal with a very serious problem. It fails to tackle in an enlightened and progressive way the whole question of social security. This is one of the matters referred to in the report of the Federation of Irish Industries. Comparisons are made in that report between the level of social services and social security services here with the provisions in EEC countries. A problem has been posed not merely for industry but for trade unions and those employed in industry. The comparative figures reveal that the percentage gross national product spent on social security in this country is smaller than in any EEC member country or in Britain. The Irish figure is 8.1 per cent whereas in Britain the figure is ten per cent and in the EEC countries ranges from 12.2 per cent in Italy to 15 per cent in Luxembourg.

The most notable omission in the Budget yesterday was the failure to do anything about family allowances. The present rate of family allowances was fixed in 1963. Until the increase of 2s 6d in respect of dependent children of social welfare recipients was included in the Budget yesterday, no increase had been granted in that allowance. This fact was brought to public attention by the report of the Revenue Commissioners in 1967 and in the White Paper issued by the then Minister for Health, the late Donogh O'Malley, in 1966. That report showed that there were over 800,000 persons on the general medical services register. The report of the Revenue Commissioners indicated that of over 942,000 children in families only about 153,000 were in families whose heads paid income tax, in other words, that almost 800,000—certainly threequarters of a million—were in families whose heads were not liable to income tax.

The present rate of family allowances was fixed in 1963. Since then the cost of living has increased by just 24 per cent. The tax remissions granted in the Budget yesterday in respect of managerial or technical categories and the benefit given in respect of lower income groups provide no relief whatever for this large category who are above the social welfare categories and below the managerial classes. This omission is one of the most remarkable in the Budget and highlights the urgency of the need for a comprehensive, satisfactory, planned social policy. That there has been no increase since 1963 is particularly harsh in a country where there are large families on whom the rise in the cost of living is a real burden.

The urgency of the need to prepare a proper social policy in the light of EEC membership has been mentioned not merely in the report of the Federation of Industries but by the trade union organisations. The existence of that need is a condemnation of the preparation which has been made for EEC membership. A proper social policy must include provision not only for proper health services but for a proper system of social insurance. We have expressed the view and have advocated that a graded contributory system is the only means of providing a satisfactory service and the essential cover for those entitled to it. The present position must be contrasted with the aims and objects of the Treaty of Rome in which reference is made to the need to harmonise social policies and to secure that social policies in general in EEC countries would conform to the same standards.

In this country the rate of family allowances compares unfavourably with the rates in operation in a number of other countries and, in particular, in a number of the relatively poorer countries in Europe, some of which are in the EEC and some of which are applicants for membership of that community. We have consistently advocated that the rates relief granted in respect of agriculture provides no relief for the urban areas. Fine Gael have advocated and recommended that rates relief must be provided for the urban areas also.

One of the proposals brought forward in yesterday's Budget is one which has been advocated by Fine Gael and which was strenuously recommended by us in 1965 when the Finance Bill was going through the House. I refer to the question of estate duty in the case of widows and orphans. At that time there was considerable debate here and objection made to parts of the 1965 Finance Bill part of which was abolished when Part VII was changed, and now the remaining objectionable feature has been removed in respect of widows and orphans. The provision in the Finance Bill of 1965 was strenuously opposed because we regarded it as imposing hardship on people least able to look after themselves and least able to meet the problems of widowhood and the problems inherent in inheriting businesses.

We have advocated that the present health charges must be removed from the rates. A defect in the Budget is that the proposal to examine the problem postpones any relief. Not merely does it postpone relief, but ratepayers this year have to face the very substantial increase in rates, most of it attributable to the health charges. The time of this House was wasted in the Health Committee that considered this problem some years ago. Only now has a decision been taken to examine the problem.

The same is true in respect of education. The proposals made now and which are to be implemented go some way towards meeting the recommendations which were made in our education policy in respect of university education and post-primary education. The decision now taken to examine the health services does not provide the remedy for the acute problem of rising rates affecting particularly the urban areas this year. The rise in the cost of living, the added burdens in respect of rate demands, has spiralled because of the failure to introduce a system comparable with that recommended and published by Deputy O'Higgins some years ago. We believe that the problem which faces urban ratepayers is one which should be tackled without delay and without waiting for an examination such as is being suggested here.

As I said yesterday, this scheme can be put into operation. It was described at the time—by, I think, the then Minister for Health, Deputy MacEntee—as a poll tax. Every system that involves a personal contribution can be so described. Every system that involves a contribution by an individual, either on his own behalf or on behalf of his family, could be criticised in that way. It is now admitted and recognised that no workable scheme, no relief in respect of the problems affecting ratepayers and no comprehensive health assistance can be properly undertaken except on a contributory basis. We have advocated that the system should be graded, that graded contributions will not merely provide a better scheme but provide a workable scheme. This system can be put into operation without delay if the Government have the will and energy to do it.

One of the decisions announced yesterday by the Minister for Finance was a decision to introduce here a decimal coinage system comparable with that to be operated in Britain. It is generally recognised that the system adopted in Britain is not a satisfactory one. There was a good deal of opposition to the unit there because it would make it difficult to operate in respect of taxes where small units are necessary. It is not easy for this country to operate a different system from that which operates in Britain. It is for many reasons more convenient for trade, business and ordinary commercial transactions to operate a similar system. The system to be put into effect in Britain was adopted with considerable misgivings by large interests and representative organisations over there as well as by a number of MPs. When that system was adopted, the Federation of Irish Industries recommended an alternative.

This is a question which might be further considered before a final decision is taken. It is not easy to operate a different system from that which operates in Britain. But in respect of taxation like the wholesale tax and the turnover tax and the added value tax, if it is operated here, where small units are concerned, the system in operation there—because it is not strictly metric, I understand—may make it difficult to operate except to round off to a much higher level than provided for in the actual incidence of taxation.

The most notable failure of the present Budget is that it fails to provide the incentives which are necessary, that it merely marks time and that it is too cautious in facing the challenge and problems of the future. It is not sufficient for the Government or for the Minister to say there are particular international and external problems in the world and that we live in difficult times. That is true of any area at any time. We have always been existing in a situation in which, if there was not an international crisis of one sort or another, there was a war somewhere. This country cannot isolate itself from the effects of these and must live and compete with them. We must tackle the great problems of emigration, of providing increased employment and the great problem of housing our own people. It is notable in the Budget, in spite of the increase in the Capital Budget, that for every £11 only £1 of the increase goes to housing. In fact, the total increase for housing this year is only £2.3 million. That barely covers the increased costs in respect of housing. It will enable local authorities merely to maintain their existing output. It will only enable private building to be continued at the same level. In fact, it provides only for the increased costs of building.

There is in this Budget not merely a general lack of imagination but a general lack of determination to solve the problems of housing and health services and to provide the incentives necessary for agriculture and for the provision of increased employment, to show the decision and energy necessary to make this country capable of taking its place in the EEC and capable of meeting the competition which will be inevitable, either with the continuation of the present Free Trade Area Agreement or inevitable in whatever regrouping may take place in respect of Common Market membership.

The Budget was described as being more or less as expected. It provides some compensation in respect of pensioners and some relief in respect of those affected by the rising costs of living. But in so far as it fails to provide an energetic, comprehensive plan to deal with the economic and social problems affecting the country, it merely marks time. Worst of all, it fails to provide, as was emphasised in the OECD Report, any carefully worked out plan dealing with prices and incomes. This is one of the matters we have adverted to. The only reference to it in the Minister's speech is a reference in the early stages and the promise that if prices and incomes rise unduly, there will be another Budget later in the year. That is not providing a solution. It is not providing the lead accepted as essential in the review of the failure of the Second Programme, which is accepted and emphasised in the Federation of Industries report and which has been accepted by the NIEC —that the real direction and real sense of purpose to put the Programme into effect must come from the Government. We have had exhortations to industry and agriculture and to the trade unions, but the failure to give a lead stems from the Government.

In that regard it is well to reflect on the number of failures which have taken place in respect of proposals arising from Government activity. One was again referred to yesterday. There is a sort of suggestion that because particular cases of State investment are raised here, there is opposition to and criticism of what is being done. This is public money. The public are entitled to know how it is invested and how it is spent. In respect of three notable cases in recent times—Galway Textile Printers, the Potex factory in Galway and the Potez factory in Baldonnel— substantial public investment has been made and in each of these cases an unsatisfactory report of the results has been presented to this House. Some time ago a promise was made and an undertaking was given by the Minister for Industry and Commerce that after an investigation a full disclosure of the facts would be made in respect of Potez in Baldonnel. The only recent information in regard to Galway is an announcement that the receiver is in.

In these cases where public money is being spent, care must be taken that the facts are disclosed, and every effort must be made to ensure that our competent skilled and trustworthy personnel are accepted here as people of trust, and people in whom the country can express its confidence. I believe that when such a situation arises, there is an inescapable obligation on the Government to disclose the full facts. From an examination of the national accounts as presented by the Minister yesterday, as shown in the returns, from all the figures and facts and publications that have been made, has come a clear impression that this country is marking time. We are making no real progress economically or socially, or in the way in which we must make progress if we are to face the challenge of the 70s and the problems that cannot be avoided if we are to compete with other countries either as a member of the EEC or as an independent economic unit determined to provide a good standard of living and to provide the services to which we consider our people are entitled.

Our people are paying substantially more in taxation, substantially more in rates, substantially more in respect of every commodity. Possibly a limited few are getting a reasonable standard of living. In so far as providing a better standard of living for an expanding number of people and providing more jobs for greater numbers is concerned, the Second Programme has been a dismal failure. That cannot be camouflaged by announcing that a Third Programme is to be initiated this year. The failure of the Second Programme in spite of favourable external causes has been due to internal facts and has been due in the main to lack of Government leadership and is the most emphatic repudiation and rejection of the Government's policy and plans.

This Budget document is a reasonably bulky one. It contains 69 pages and some 36 subheads. Trimmed of the embroidery, what are we left with? If we want to know what is contained in the Budget, instead of reading through these 69 pages, the explanatory leaflet which was submitted to the House yesterday gives us an account of what the Budget actually contains. To my mind, here there is a reasonable interpretation of what is in this Budget. It is proposed to take £1.45 million extra from the tobacco tax, £1.2 million from oil, £1.4 million from beer, £.35 million from spirits, and £.2 million from wine. That is a total of £4.6 million and of this is transferred £3.12 million to social welfare, £1.2 million to agriculture, £.2 million to public service pensions and £.1 million to the arts.

Those are the changes this Budget is making so far as the country is concerned. I am very surprised that there is nothing new in this Budget, that there is no change from the road over which we have been travelling down through the years. I have a reasonably high regard for the Minister. I believe he is well qualified to be Minister for Finance. He has at his disposal the entire Civil Service, many of whom must be men with exceptional qualifications, to advise him. It was reasonable to assume that a man such as Deputy Haughey as Minister for Finance would have some changes and some innovations to bring before the House in this his second Budget Statement. Unfortunately he had not. There is nothing new. There is nothing to indicate to the different sections of our people that there will be an improvement in their position as a result of this 69 page document read to us by the Minister yesterday.

If we take the industries, what do we find? We find first and foremost that so far as our main industry, agriculture, is concerned, the total additional amount in this Budget is £1.2 million. Taking into account that one-third of our people derive their livelihood from agricultural pursuits, everyone must agree that that figure is well below anticipation. Surely our agriculturalists throughout the country must be very disappointed indeed that the Minister in his Budget Statement had nothing brighter or more useful to say so far as the development of this our main industry is concerned.

I am well aware of the many obstacles the Minister had to surmount. Everyone knows the problems of dealing with the sale of our agricultural produce. I refer mainly to dairy products. I know that the sales of such products have to be subsidised. At the same time, we have been told by the Government in the past few years that it was essential and necessary to increase our cattle population, and that the best way to achieve that objective was to increase our cow population because without an increase in our cow population, our cattle population could not really increase. We were inviting our people to get more cows and produce more milk and we were assuring them that any additional costs would be met, if not by an increase in price on our export markets for dairy products, by a subvention from the State. That assurance has not been honoured in this Budget.

We must take into account that our store cattle trade and our fat cattle trade play a vital part in our economy and we were told in this House again and again that were it not for an increase in our exports of cattle, and live cattle in particular, our balance of payments would not be as good as it actually is. I do not want to labour this question but I feel it is a grave disappointment to the agricultural community that the Minister was not able to be more specific in advising them and helping them and providing more incentives.

I am now leaving the cattle and dairy industry and moving to an industry about which I have spoken in this House time and time again. I have great faith and confidence in the pig industry. I know what that side line means, particularly to the small farmers. It is unfortunate indeed that despite the many incentives various Ministers for Agriculture have given in recent years to this industry, through financial help and a good deal of soft talk, the industry is declining. Something must be wrong. What could possibly be wrong? The answer is obvious. The industry is not paying. Pig prices are not remunerative. If they were, there would be no need for any incentives to maintain our pig numbers.

We have bacon factories threatening to close down. Within the past few years, two bacon factories closed down. Instead of trying to get the smaller farmers to keep pigs and to help to supplement their other incomes, the Minister, in this Budget Statement, seems to accept that pig production with small farmers is out. Now, in order to maintain the number of pigs supplied to the bacon factories, he is changing over to big pig units. I do not like that policy. Again and again, I have condemned it here. Mass production on pig holdings or by pig co-operative groups keeping 5,000, 6,000 or 7,000 pigs would not be helpful to our economy. It might keep our bacon factories working but would it not be much better if pigs were produced in tens, 20s, 30s or 40s by the smaller farmers throughout the country than by mass-production in big pig units?

Our policy on pigs is failing. We hear a lot about incentives. The Minister will speak of sow grants. He has given a reasonable increase of 12 per cwt. for Grade A pigs. It will help to cover additional costs. However, I should like that increase extended to Grade B pigs, if possible. It is our aim and objective to produce Grade A bacon but unfortunately that cannot be achieved by all and, in a number of cases, people have to take a grade below that of Grade A. I must digress here and say I do not like to encourage the production of any type of bacon other than the best type. At the same time, we could go as far as Grade B with some additional price as well.

It will be. The others will be graded up.

I am glad to hear that. I am satisfied, in offering these criticisms, that the Minister, from previous statements he has made on pig production, would much prefer to have pigs produced as I have indicated, namely, on our small holdings throughout the country rather than to have them mass-produced in big units. Any support the Minister may need— such as the support we gave him from these benches yesterday for getting additional taxation—to help the small farmers to get into the pig industry, to get a firm hold of it, to supply our bacon factories and to increase our production for export, will be given to him. I do not wish to delay any longer on that point except to repeat that prices must not be satisfactory at present because, if they were, the pendulum, instead of losing momentum, would be swinging satisfactorily. I shall not labour other farm sidelines. There is no use in speaking now about the poultry industry. With the exception of a small number of keepers, the traditional poultry industry is dead and gone. It is of some advantage, possibly, to a small sector of our people.

I thought the Minister educated them on that.

I am well aware of the obstacles the Minister must surmount to help further in the development of agriculture. It is a difficult task by reason of the great variations in our agricultural industry and by reason of the great variations in the sizes of our farmers and our land potential. With counties where the land potential and productivity is much higher than in other counties, it is difficult indeed to lay down a general agricultural policy. Statistics indicate that some 60 per cent of our farmers have farms of less than 50 acres. I am well aware of the difficulties of bringing them up and of raising their standard of income to an economic level. I shall not go into the proposed bonus schemes announced by the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries or into other recent statements by him. We are dealing today with the Budget. Every farmer in this country expected at least another penny on the gallon of milk in order to offset increased costs. If the economy is prospering and growing to the extent which some parts of this Budget Statement tell us it is, surely our dairy farmers were entitled to some small increase on their dairy products and surely 1d on the gallon of milk would be very small?

I am not satisfied with the position so far as other industries are concerned. Deputy Cosgrave referred earlier to industrialisation. He mentioned moneys and incentives to industrialists that have gone down the drain. We should have a complete change so far as financing or locating new industries is concerned and so far as dealing with industrialists or development groups in this country is concerned. At present, no matter in what part of Ireland one may reside, the local development group must crawl up to Dublin to An Foras Tionscal or to the Agricultural Credit Corporation or to some other credit organisation and, when they meet these bodies or other State servants dealing with industrialists, they must be humble and meek because those people are the overlords and must be looked up to. One dare not say anything to offend them because, if one does, one might as well stay at home. I want a change in that system.

Instead of sitting in their soft seats in offices in Dublin, why do those people not go to the provincial towns to meet development groups in their own centres? Why do they not meet the community there and give them whatever information they have available for them? Why do they not give whatever information they have got from industrialists in other parts of the country or from other countries who may wish to establish industries here? Why not give the people concerned the facts? Why not get these people in Dublin to move around the country and to meet the development associations? That change should come about.

I believe also that the State should take the initiative in establishing industry. If a development group come together in any small town and decide to contact industrialists, they must have everything laid on and then come to Dublin to get the grant, if they are lucky enough, from An Foras Tionscal or the Industrial Credit Corporation. I believe that system should change. The people in Dublin who are supposed to be throughly conversant with industrialisation, supposed to know what foreign firms require here and what industries are most likely to be economic—surely it is they who should go down to meet local industrialists in their own centres rather than have them coming up to Dublin?

I shall not go into the mistakes made by these boards which were mentioned previously by Deputy Cosgrave and by others on other occasions. A number of blunders have been made and if public persons in other countries made such blunders, they would be no longer there to make them: their services would be dispensed with. In my view, we should change the system and get the people from the boards to move around the country. That would be a much more beneficial way of encouraging industrial development than the present system, which, to my mind, is beneath contempt. I say that, fully satisfied that I know what I am speaking about and in the light of the condescending attitude one has to endure on the part of some of the people in Dublin when you put your case before them.

I am particularly interested in industrial development in smaller towns and villages. The 1968 statistics indicate that 11,000 people left agriculture last year. That has been the pattern for years and the Labour Party claim that these people should be provided with an opportunity of earning a living in their own town instead of having to emigrate as 16,000 of them had to do last year. It is all right for us here to refer to emigration again and again but I come from a place where several thousand people have left— Cork South-West—and where you will see young girls and boys leaving for England and other countries not knowing where they are going, knowing nothing about the changed world they will meet. One can visualise a girl leaving West Cork and moving to the centre of London and what a change of environment that means and what a change it can make in every aspect of her life. The same applies to a young man emigrating. This is a most undesirable problem. The Government, with only 2.8 million people to cater for, cannot provide employment for such people despite all the experts we have in Dublin city, despite all the State-sponsored bodies established to help industrial development and growth. Development is remarkably slow. There must be something wrong with the people in the towns.

Deputy Cosgrave quoted from books supplied by various State and State-sponsored agencies in Dublin. I do not put a great deal of trust in any of these books. We remember the booklet "Closing the Gap" and the Second Programme and the Third Programme and the reports from this group and that. The best way of factually stating the value of such reports is to recall the Minister's comment yesterday when he was asked by Deputy Corish why did not the Government take steps to develop our mineral resources and replied that it was because the State-sponsored organisation told the Government of the day that there were no minerals to develop. That clearly indicates what I assert, that they did not know what they were talking about. It was left to some private individual or group — more luck to them—to develop our mines as they are doing so well and so profitably in some parts of the country at present, mines which the Government were officially informed by a State-sponsored organisation did not exist. These blunders can be very costly. Our services at the top should be more streamlined. There is no mention in the Budget of the numbers engaged in the different advisory services. I have asserted here that the number is entirely excessive, that our public services organisation has grown too rapidly for the volume of work it is performing. Everybody knows that if you have too many people doing a job it cannot be economically carried out.

The Budget Statement offers no new jobs for people who may need them. We have 57,000 registered unemployed at present and there is nothing in the Budget to indicate there will be any extra jobs. We must recall the statements made for a number of years, particularly in dealing with Financial Resolutions annually, about the extra potential, the extra industrial jobs that would be provided for our people. Everybody knows the increase in industrial work is exceptionally small. It does no more than offset 25 per cent of the loss in the agricultural sector and this is very serious. Many of those who are working have wage rates which are not reasonable and that applies to public services, council employees and forestry workers who earn from £8 to £10 weekly at present. A Cork County Council worker, after deducting his social welfare and superannuation contributions, has a take-home pay at present for a week's work of £8 5s 6d. Surely in 1968 no family man could exist on that sum which is scarcely sufficient for a single man with no dependants, not to mention a married man with a wife and family.

We must address ourselves to these problems. The Budget Statement on incomes was vague and is of no advantage to the people of whom I speak, the unskilled workers in public authorities and local councils. These people need help and had hoped that the Minister would say it was the intention of the Government at least as far as the public services are concerned to see that any employed man would get a wage of at least £x for a week's work. Men and women were expecting a statement like that from the Minister. Everybody looks forward to guarantees. Farmers and industrialists like to have guarantees, and naturally the ordinary workers, particularly in rural districts, many of whom may not be well organised, also like to have guarantees. The present wage rate is scandalous and one we should be ashamed of, and the time is at hand when such wage rates should be improved. I am sure everyone will appreciate the justice of that demand.

I referred to the £8 5s 6d a week maximum wage for a worker in Cork, but I did not take into account the Revenue Commissioners. They will tax him on the £8 5s 6d plus part of the social welfare contribution, and he will have to pay in or around 11/- weekly, so that a single man without dependants will have only £7 14s 6d. I was hoping that such lowly-paid workers would get some taxation concession in the Budget. Unfortunately there is no such concession, other than the increased allowance of £100 in the first year of his marriage.

The Minister tells us in the Budget Statement that health services are increasing steadily, and not only increasing steadily but increasing rapidly, and that the State now contributes towards the cost of health services from 54 to 57 per cent of the charge. The care of elderly people is one of the main problems in regard to health services. These men and women who worked hard at a time when standards were not as good as they are today are entitled to consideration. Despite the low standards that obtain for some families, when these people were young and active in the early part of this century and even in the 30s and so on, their conditions were not good, and I am always sympathetic towards improving the lot and brightening the lives of these, our old people.

I am very pleased that on the social welfare side 7/6d extra is being added to their pensions, but in discussing our old people and their charges on the public funds, we must take the social welfare side together with the health side. As regards old age pensions, there is no distinction made by the State between the farmer, say, with 100 cows who has signed his farm over to his son who is getting married and who, between himself and his wife, has less than £50 capital, and the old woman living in a wretched hovel who has nothing to exist on except the old age pension, or the old man living alone in his cabin. Under the present regulations, each receives £2 17s 6d. I do not blame the State for that. It is very difficult for the State to draw up a set of regulations differentiating between the different classifications of old people. That is the job of the health authorities and, in my opinion, the health authorities are making a hell of a bad job of it.

Our main problem, we are told from the reports of the various health authorities, is to provide hospitalisation for our elderly people. We have insufficient space to answer all the calls for institutional treatment from elderly people. This gives rise to difficulties, and there is no need for me to go into the diversity of problems that arises from that position. However, I maintain that these problems could be overcome to a large degree if the health authorities throughout the country, as they are entitled to do under State legislation, would grant certain reliefs to these old people. Again and again I have pleaded for the payment of allowances, under the Disabled Persons Allowance Act, to our old people. I have made that case in Cork and here in Dublin. I cannot see for the life of me why, because some group or some agency who are not responsible to the elected people do not feel that such an allowance should be paid, it is not paid.

Let me give one instance of what happened down in Cork when I proposed in respect of our old people who are physically or mentally handicapped, and whose financial circumstances or the circumstances of their relatives are such that they have to apply for home assistance, that instead of this allowance being given to them under the heading of home assistance in the winter of their lives, we should pay them the disabled persons allowance, as we are entitled to do under the Health Act of 1953. Cork Health Authority, which comprises 40 members—there are two of them here at the present time—agreed with my proposal that the allowance should be paid. What happened? The Manager of that health authority did not feel like it, and said: "I am not paying this allowance. This is a matter for me. I am the bureaucrat. I am the dictator so far as this business is concerned." As a result, these people were denied the allowance, and I am informed that this group known as the County Managers Association have agreed at their meetings here in Dublin, which are not official or even semi-official, that this allowance should not be granted. If the Minister were here, I would ask him to make it mandatory on health authorities to pay the allowance where the circumstances warrant it.

A number of our young people return from England to mind their parents in their own home and they are deprived of any allowance. They cannot get unemployment benefit because they are not available for work; they cannot get unemployment assistance for the same reason. I maintain that the old person should get this disablement allowance whereby he could not only maintain himself but maintain the relative who had returned to care for him in his old age. In Cork South-West constituency, we are paying hospitalisation expenses, according to the latest returns, of up to £14 10s to maintain some of our old people in institutions. These people are not anxious to be in our institutions. They are in them because of financial circumstances, and if these allowances were payable to them in their homes, they would much prefer to be in their homes.

From my investigations and from my visits to such institutions, I know that more than 90 per cent of our old people would prefer to be in their own homes, in the concluding stages of their lives rather than in these institutions no matter how well cared for they are. The county or city managers, call them what you will, have no right to say that legislation enacted by this House should not be put into operation. I moved that the particular manager to whom I refer should be removed from office. Any person with that outlook is not fit to have control of an authority such as Cork Health Authority which has an expenditure of almost £6 million a year and caters for so many people. Why would any manager or any group of public servants say that, even though this legislation has been passed by this House, the allowances will not be paid? All public representatives, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour, gave me 100 per cent support in endeavouring to get the allowance, but when it came to removing the manager the numbers decreased and we all know why.

I feel very strongly about this question of our aged people. The Minister referred to this section of the community several times yesterday and he was most sympathetic. I am sure he would not stand for what I have just outlined, imposed on these old people by the autocratic system we have in the country. It is completely out of place to ask an old person to go to an assistance officer or to send somebody along to get his weekly sum. It is also unfair to ask a young girl who has returned home to mind her father or mother to go to the assistance officer for an allowance to help her stay at home to mind her parents. The system whereby the allowance is paid by post, as the disablement allowance can be, would be much better.

I want to reiterate that our social welfare regulations allow the man who needs the money only as pocket money, if you like, the man whose family is around him and who are reasonably affluent and who respect and honour him, as the vast majority do, to have the money for private spending. I know that the State cannot carry the differentiation and that it would impose an impossible burden on them, but that should be the job of the local health authority. It is the local health authority which must help the physically and mentally incapacitated who need help and the Minister should implement the appropriate legislation. I am not altogether opposed to the— should I use the word "extermination"? —of local authorities in some cases. If such people——

I feel at this stage that the amount of detail into which the Deputy is going would be more appropriate on the Estimate.

I am going into detail because it is a Budget matter, the old people are the centrepiece of this Budget. Unless there is a change, unless some of the functions of our executives are curtailed, it would be to the advantage of such people to be dealt with on a national basis, if the health services became completely nationalised. To conclude on this matter, on the money side there would be little difference in the amount required because if these allowances were payable, people would not be in the institutions; the number would be drastically reduced. The figure at present is 113,000 people over 70 years of age in receipt of pensions, which is a relatively big number. The cost of paying the allowances would be saved by the reduction of the numbers in the institutions, and their maintenance, and by the reduction of the pressure on hospital space.

Reference has been made to trading conditions, the balance of payments, and so forth, and we have the usual jargon in dealing with these matters. Reference was made to the possibility of entering the EEC and mention of the EEC by Deputy Cosgrave brings to my mind again the failure of our people abroad who deal with trading. I have referred to this matter year after year and I have pointed out that in our trading position there is an adverse balance of slightly more than two to one. How is it that we cannot get the six EEC countries to buy from us as much as they sell to us? Why is there this big gap in our trading? In the Budget Statement it can be seen that the gap has widened and our sales to the EEC have reduced by £4 million according to the latest statistics. I do not understand how that can happen.

One would think we should be able to bargain with the EEC countries to buy from us as much as they sell to us. The deficit runs to about £28 million annually and this year it will be in the neighbourhood of £31 million or £32 million. Something must be wrong with our marketing system. The same situation exists with our trade with eastern Europe. There we are losing heavily and those countries seem to be getting the best side of the trading balance. This is bound to affect our economy. The only country with which we trade on any kind of fair basis, and when I say "fair" I mean where exports and imports are kept reasonably close, is Britain. We are very fortunate that Britain is so close to us and we all hope that the difficulties which Britain is facing at present will be overcome.

I am very pleased that our relations with Britain are improving. Today, we do not hear anything about hoping and praying that every British ship will finish up at the bottom of the sea. I could never see any justification for that attitude and I am pleased that it apparently no longer exists. Britain has been very helpful to us in catering for our large exports of men and women over a number of years. Were it not for having Britain there to take these men and women, give them good jobs and better conditions than they have here at home, I shudder at the thought of what the trend might have been in yesterday's Budget.

Trading is not satisfactory. We have not at our disposal the expert advice Ministers have. We have to get information as best we can. It is very difficult to get information from Ministers even though they are the people who should know. Deputies like myself have to try to get information we require for ourselves and assess its value, and it is only reasonable for us to question Ministers, particularly those dealing with internal trading, as to why such a position should obtain. With the enormous numbers employed in the public services, I am surprised that there is not more information available not only to the House but to the people at large. I am surprised, too, that we are not able to strike a better bargain with countries with which we are trading. I do not want to cast any reflection on our Ambassadors because I am not sufficiently conversant with the position, but I would like to know what help these Ambassadors give to those of our people who move out into other countries on business errands. Do they give them very much help or are they, as has been alleged, unapproachable?

With regard to social welfare, the few bob will be helpful. I was surprised it was not a little more. I had set my mind on 10s because of the approaching electoral reform. It was reasonable to assume the Government would make things as bright as possible on the eve of their effort to change the system which, according to some, is responsible for all our ills. It was reasonable to anticipate a brightly painted picture and improved social welfare. But I did think the figure would be higher.

We have always supported the policy of social welfare for those who need it. The mentally and physically handicapped are entitled to the best we can give them. What I do not like is paying unemployment benefit to such large numbers of people willing, able and capable of productive work. The figure stands at 58,000. There is a vast amount of work to be done all over the country—land reclamation, roadmaking, housebuilding, the provision of water and sewerage schemes. In that situation it is somewhat bizarre to have 58,000 moving into the exchanges to draw benefit and, in order to qualify for that benefit, they must give an assurance that they will do no work of any kind for cash. That system should be changed. I am satisfied from my knowledge of these people that they would much prefer to be working instead of going along to the exchange and drawing the money there without any physical effort on their part. I know many of them have paid contributions, possibly more by way of contribution than they draw in unemployment benefit, but the system is degrading and demoralising.

I have made the case that civil servants should be drawn from every Department to form an interdepartmental committee for the purpose of establishing a system designed to absorb the unemployed in useful employment and those so engaged could be paid by subventions from the Department of Social Welfare equal to the amounts the Department pays by way of unemployment. With proper co-operation and co-ordination, workers could be moved from one scheme to another, according as the need arose. Earlier I quoted some figures in relation to the incomes of some of our public servants. The figure is, if anything, less than the figure for unemployment benefit and a subvention, therefore, from the Department of Social Welfare could cover the full cost of the scheme I suggest. Why should these be left standing around idle? They do not want unemployment; they want employment. They want to do a job of work. Houses are required; water and sewerage schemes are required. Everyone knows the problem of getting money in regard to the latter. There are many local improvements that could be carried out and many desirable amenities that could be provided if my suggestion were adopted. These subventions from the Department of Social Welfare could be utilised for productive work carried out by those who are at present unemployed.

Each Department seems to operate completely independently. There is no co-ordination. I suppose the defect is really at the top. Each Minister is busy minding his own business. He discharges his functions as if his Department were the only Department in the country. I thought the Minister for Finance had it in him to change a system that has outlived its usefulness. I had high regard for Deputy Haughey's qualifications and felt that he would revolutionise the Civil Service, being the head of the service by virtue of the position he occupies. I hope that he will take steps in that direction. He may claim that there were other items to engage his attention but I contend that this inter-departmental committee should be established.

The Budget was summed up in an interview reported in the Government newspaper to-day with a man with a wife and family in Dublin who said to the Irish Press reporter: “It does not make much difference to me. It does not make much difference to my family. We will be somewhat the same after it as we were before it.” He summed up in those remarks—I was surprised that they were published in the Irish Press—the general opinion in the country, that the Budget has made little difference to any section. Naturally, any benefits that arise from the Budget will be wiped away in increasing costs. The man that I was speaking about, earning £8 a week, may say that the Budget makes little difference to him. He will have to pay 2d an ounce extra for tobacco and a 1d on the pint. He may not mind about that. Any little difference the Budget makes will be on the wrong side as far as he is concerned. The farmer or the industrialist has got very little benefit from the Budget. He, too, can say that the Budget does not make much difference to him, that he is somewhat the same now as he was before the Budget was announced.

The few side benefits provided in the Budget such as free radio and television licences and free transport are undoubtedly of some value to the recipients but the costs indicated are much higher than they should be. In most cases a television set in a house where there is an old age pensioner is licensed in the name of a member of the family. In such case there will not be a free licence. It is only where the aged person is the licensee that the State will help.

I shall conclude by referring to a matter I have mentioned here occasionally about which I feel very strongly. I realise that the objective I have in mind is very difficult to attain and I am not blaming the Minister for not reaching the target this year. When we speak of old age pensions and retirement allowances, we should have in mind a change of age for qualification purposes. In 1908, the British Government set the standard at 70 years. That was 60 years ago. So far as certain groups are concerned, that standard has been lowered. Professional people and others get their retirement allowances and pensions at the age of 65. The man out under the wind and the weather has to linger on for five more years. I realise that a reduction in the age limit would be costly but it would not be nearly as costly as was indicated by the Minister in reply to me some time ago. The advantages to be derived would far outweigh the cost.

First of all, is it not time that there should be a change? Has not everything else that one could think of changed in the last few years? Why not give an opportunity to people, who are mainly manual workers, to retire at 65 years of age? That would leave their places open to younger persons and would help to relieve the unemployment problem to which I have referred. Secondly, in the case of farmers or shopkeepers, it would be an incentive to them to transfer their businesses five years earlier to members of their families who would then have an opportunity of taking up where their fathers had left off. Thirdly, it would afford the persons concerned an opportunity to enjoy in some reasonable comfort the later stages of their lives. Unfortunately, almost every second person of more than 70 years of age is incapacitated. That is a factual statement.

I have been informed that the cost of reducing the qualifying age would be some £12 million. The usual question is asked; where is the money to come from? I calculate that if the pension were paid at 65 years of age, a great deal of the money involved would flow back to the Exchequer by way of tax on consumer goods. Almost every commodity an old age pensioner buys is taxed. Drink is taxed and cigarettes are excessively taxed. There is a tax on food and clothing. It is reasonable to assume that, at least, half of the retirement allowance would flow back to the Exchequer.

The Minister for Education is now in the House and I should like to comment on the educational system but time does not allow. I understand that the debate will be adjourned at 6 p.m. but I want to say to the Minister that he should ask his colleagues to review the qualifying age for old age pensions. If there were a proposal to reduce the qualifying age from 70 to 65 in this Budget, it would have, without doubt, the support of the Labour Party and of the Fine Gael Party and, I am sure, of every member of the Fianna Fáil Party. There is a national demand for a change of this kind. I shall conclude by reiterating my disappointment with the Minister's Budget Statement. I expected something more hopeful for the various sectors of our economy, particularly the agricultural and industrial sectors.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
Barr
Roinn