Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 9 Jul 1968

Vol. 236 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote 44—Army Pensions.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Hilliard)

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £32,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1969, for Retired Pay, Pensions, Compensation, Allowances and Gratuities payable under Sundry Statutes to or in respect of Members of the Defence Forces and certain other Military Organisations, etc., and for Sundry Contributions and Expenses in connection therewith; for certain Extra-Statutory Children's Allowances and for Sundry Grants.

The purpose of this Supplementary Estimate is to make provision for the expenditure which, it is anticipated, will arise in the current year in connection with the provision, in accordance with the Budgetary statement of the Minister for Finance, of free travel, electricity and television and radio licences for veterans of the War of Independence.

Under the free travel scheme which came into operation on Monday 8th July, 1968, free travel is available in the State on the scheduled rail and road services of Córas Iompair Éireann and on the road services of the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company and the County Donegal Railways (Joint Committee), subject to the same conditions and limitations as apply in the case of old age pensioners. A travel card will be issued to each applicant whose entitlement has been established—a number have already been issued—and the production of this card to an authorised official of the transport organisation will secure free travel for him.

The free electricity allowance, which will come into operation from the 1st October, 1968, will consist of relief from the fixed charge for the Electricity Supply Board's domestic consumer tariff and up to 100 units of electricity free of charge in each two-monthly accounting period. The allowance, as in the case of old age pensioners, will be available only to registered consumers who are living alone or with certain specified classes of persons.

The scheme for free television/radio licences came into operation on the 1st July, 1968. Veterans who satisfy the conditions for the grant of a free electricity allowance are also eligible for a free television or radio licence. When a veteran's application for a free licence has been approved, he will be issued with a form and a letter of authority from my Department. On production of the completed form and the letter of authority at his local post office, the appropriate free licence will be issued to him. Persons eligible for free licences who hold a current licence which expires after 1st July, 1968, may obtain refunds in respect of the portion of the licence covering the period from 1st July, 1968, to the date of its expiry.

Mr. Ryan

We in the Fine Gael Party wish to thank the Minister for acceding to the request of the Fine Gael Party for a considerable time past to provide these facilities for veterans of the War of Independence. We are sorry it took the Government a year after the same facilities were provided for other old folk to provide them for the veterans of the War of Independence without a means test, but we are grateful he has taken this step.

I am mindful of the fact that on 1st February last I addressed a question to the Minister asking him to take steps to permit old IRA pensioners at all times to travel on public transport free of charge, and I asked him to estimate the cost of providing such a facility. I am sorry to say that at that time the Minister in his reply said:

...It is not proposed to extend the existing free travel facilities as requested by the Deputy and it is not feasible to ascertain the estimated cost of doing so.

This is an example of the immense force of the Parliamentary Question. This is a demonstration that this is one of the most creative things in our democracy, that from a Parliamentary Question, from a good idea, can spring the necessary stimulation for a Minister, and through him, for a Department, to think thoughts and to do good which perhaps, due to pressure of other distractions, they are not doing. It would appear that as recently as 1st February last the Minister and his Department found it was not feasible to estimate the cost of doing what we in the Fine Gael Party were requesting. We are glad that the immense resources of the Department of Defence, which one would reasonably have considered to be over-staffed rather than under-staffed, have reached such a degree of efficiency and activity that they have found it feasible to estimate the cost of doing this necessary exercise.

We think £32,000 is a very small amount to contribute from the wealth and resources of this country, which were to a great extent made possible by the sacrifices of the veterans and which we the younger generation today enjoy because of the decisions and sacrifices which the veterans made some 40 and 50 years ago. It would be a very poor reflection on our society if we had not given this insignificant assistance to veterans in the winter of their day, so that the setting sun in their lives would at least be illuminated by this ray of kindness and of assistance to them. We are doing no more than allowing them to travel free of charge on the public transport, than giving them electricity to cook their meals and to light and warm their homes, and a television licence if they have the wherewithal to purchase or to hire a television set; we would hope that, as this is being done, perhaps also from the goodwill and charitable disposition of the community, efforts will be made where necessary to provide television sets for veterans of the War of Independence and indeed for all old folk. This is one of the greatest comforts which can be given to elderly people, people who are immobile, people who are confined to their homes. A television set is one of the few boons of modern civilisation, and if we are giving them a television licence, while not making it possible for them to have a television set, it is an ease and something for which we should be grateful. That is why we in the Fine Gael Party are only too glad to support this Supplementary Estimate for the veterans of the War of Independence, people who have given a great deal, who ask for little, who often get less and even more frequently get nothing at all.

Mr. James Tully

I should like to support this Supplementary Estimate on behalf of the Labour Party. I am one of the people who believe that no matter what we provide for these people, it is little enough. They are going from us and going fast, and the unfortunate thing about it is that very many of them feel they have been let down by the State. I do not know why this is so. I meet them from time to time, and the person who has applied for some little thing and has not got it always says that what he has done has not been recognised, and he hastens to point out that when he was taking part in the fight for independence, he never expected to get anything, and until he actually needed it did not ask for it. He points out that other people who appear to be better off than he have got it, and it gives him a sense of grievance. Therefore, I believe even if we make an error by giving to people whose claim to it might be doubtful, it is better to do that rather than not to give it to somebody who is entitled to it.

The only thing that puzzles me about this is the figure estimated by the Minister, £32,000. If my reckoning is correct, it makes no difference at all as far as the free travel is concerned, because, as was said by somebody else here previously, this is a question of giving a subsidy to CIE under a different heading. It may not be possible for the Minister to decide how this works out, but if CIE require a subsidy of £1,200,000 and if, in fact, £20,000 of that is given under this heading, it means that CIE will not have to get that £20,000 under the other heading. At least that is my reading of it.

I would ask the Minister—maybe it would be difficult but I would urge him to do it if at all possible—to remove the regulation which states that pensioners are not allowed to travel at peak periods and around bank holiday periods. This is something which will irritate the veterans more than anything else. I do not know whether it is possible to make these people more or less privileged card holders. If it is possible I would suggest that for the little difference it would make, there should be no ban on these people using public transport at any time. It was pointed out to some people already receiving it when they wanted to go to visit their friends around Christmas that they could not travel at that time. That was a hardship. It should be possible to have it changed.

With regard to the question of the ESB, I do not know how this will work out because it is so confined, and there are so many people who do not qualify, and so many people who qualify under another heading. We are dealing with old people, people who are already around the 70 mark. I think the figure quoted here over-represents the cost to the State. This is an experiment and possibly the question of the people who qualify has not been taken fully into consideration. Otherwise we could not possibly come up with a figure of £32,000.

I agree with Deputy Ryan about the free television and radio licences. I have been talking to some pensioners who think that the offer of a free licence is rather a cheap joke. They find it hard enough to pay for heating and lighting without thinking of hiring or buying a television set. They also point out that they cannot get it unless they live alone, or with their wife or children under 16 years, or with an invalid brother or sister. I have been asked—as I am sure the Minister has been asked because he travels the same area—how they could buy a set. Possibly the ADF or the ONE might be encouraged to raise a fund to assist these people who cannot buy a television set. Again the figure here appears to be rather high.

There is one reference which the Minister might explain to me because there will be doubt about it. The Minister said:

When a veteran's application for a free licence has been approved, he will be issued with a form and a letter of authority from my Department. On production of the completed form and the letter of authority at his local post office, the appropriate free licence will be issued to him. Persons eligible for free licences who hold a current licence which expires after 1st July, 1968, may obtain refunds in respect of the portion of the licence covering the period from 1st July, 1968, to the date of its expiry.

From whom? Will it be at the post office?

Mr. Hilliard

The post office.

Mr. James Tully

Will it be handed across the counter?

Mr. Hilliard

I have not gone into the mechanics of it.

Mr. James Tully

This could cause annoyance. We will have old people who will apply and who will fall out with the people in the post office because they do not get a refund which they have been told is available. Perhaps the Minister would make this clear when he is replying, for my information and the information of the people concerned.

I mentioned these people who are around the 70 mark. I met a man last week who is hale and hearty. He told me that he is only 63 years but that he will be able to avail of this free transport. He was a young soldier of Ireland and he is still hale and hearty. He said that he appreciated this and that he would make use of it for many years to come. We wholeheartedly support the ideas behind this proposal.

Mr. Hilliard

I do not think there is any necessity for me to say very much in concluding this debate. It is true that Deputy Ryan put down a question, and he can claim credit for the concession if he cares to. Since I entered this House, there has been continuous pressure for something to be done to ease the situation of the veterans of the War of Independence. The House can take it from me that so far as the administration of the Acts dealing with special allowances and other benefits made available by the House is concerned, my Department goes out of its way to make the benefits available to the greatest possible number of applicants.

Mr. James Tully

Unfortunately it is the social welfare officers who investigate them.

Mr. Hilliard

The post office will deal with refunds in respect of licences.

Mr. James Tully

Can they be refunded directly?

Mr. Hilliard

I do not know whether the refund could be handed out across the counter. I will make inquiries about that. So far as the restriction on travel is concerned, I want to make it clear that these restrictions are part of the scheme. CIE try to fit this scheme into their own schedule. It must be difficult for CIE at peak hours when there are so many working-class people who have to be carried. From my own experience of rural buses, I am inclined to think that the necessity to enforce the restrictions in the rural areas would not be so great.

Mr. James Tully

The regulation is being enforced.

Mr. Hilliard

There is not such pressure on CIE in the rural areas.

Mr. James Tully

Would the Minister say if these people are paid for by the Government?

Mr. Hilliard

We pay in respect of each travel card issued. I should like to make it clear in connection with the travel arrangements for veterans that they apply to all who hold duly awarded medals.

Vote put and agreed to.

Votes Nos. 43 and 44 reported and agreed to.