Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 23 Oct 1968

Vol. 236 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 34—Lands.

: I move:

Go ndeonófar suim nach mó ná £3,937,000 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1969, le haghaidh Tuarastail agus Costais Oifig an Aire Tailte agus Oifig Choimisiún Talún na hÉireann.

In line with the agreed procedure adopted for the last few years, I propose to take the Votes for Lands and Forestry together this year also. Accordingly, in my opening remarks I shall refer to Votes 34 and 35 and at the conclusion of the debate the Motion in respect of Vote 34 will be put to the House. Vote 35 will then be formally moved.

The Lands Vote (No. 34) shows a net increase of £413,000 compared with last year. I shall commence by explaining the salient features of this Estimate —especially those items which reflect a significant change from last year's provision—and continue with a review of the principal activities of the Land Commission during the year ended 31st March last.

Provision for salaries, wages and allowances is made under subhead A. The additional amount, viz. £26,000, required this year is attributable partly to the need to make provision for increased staff for pilot area work and partly to normal incremental progression—offset by a saving on the suppression of a large number of clerical posts as a result of the installation of a computer in the Land Commission.

Following the enactment of the Land Act, 1965, a reorganisation of the Land Commission was effected under which the administrative and inspectorate personnel were expanded and strengthened. On the administrative side an additional post of assistant secretary was provided with other extra posts including one principal officer and one assistant principal officer. On the inspectorate side a new senior post of deputy chief inspector was created, located in the West, with the special responsibility of speeding up the solution of land problems in western areas. At the same time 25 new subordinate inspectorate posts including two posts of inspector grade I were also provided.

To deal with the new work arising from the pilot areas a further reorganisation of the Land Commission is now under way. The inspectorate is being redeployed and strengthened and recently there was authorised the creation of more additional outdoor posts including one post of senior inspector and four posts of inspector grade 1.

I may say here that in common with other Departments which have technical or professional staff the Land Commission have been encountering difficulties in effecting adequate recruitment to maintain their full complement of inspectors. In view of the extent and urgency of land structure reform it is essential to ensure the optimum utilisation of qualified inspectors. It seems to me that this can best be achieved just now by relieving the inspectors of a range of lesser duties which could be performed quite effectively by non-professional officers. Accordingly, I have decided in principle to create a cadre of sub-professional field officers to assist the inspectors to carry out their land settlement functions. The precise number, title, salary scale, qualifications and duties of the new grade have still to be settled.

At the same time I am giving serious consideration to a corresponding reorganisation and strengthening of the administrative staffing. In addition to these organisational and staffing proposals, a Management Services Unit has been established in the Land Commission to consider and develop modern management techniques aimed at increasing efficiency and productivity generally. I am confident that when the proposals I have outlined have been brought to finality the organisation and staffing of the Land Commission will be adequate to deal satisfactorily with the full work programme.

The first part of subhead B relates for the most part to travelling and subsistence expenses incurred in connection with the inspection, survey and allotment of lands under the Land Acts. The extra amount, viz. £1,750, this year is required for the most part to meet heavier outlay on miscellaneous items and advertisements.

Part (2) of subhead B provides for payment direct to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs for all services rendered by that Department; this has now become standard procedure. The total amount required this year is £51,400.

The moneys required under subhead D are in the nature of statutory commitments. They represent the taxpayers' contribution in the current year towards the service of land purchase debt accumulated, since 1923, on both tenanted and untenanted land. The total contribution this year, viz. £1,202,900, constitutes the biggest individual item in the Vote and represents nearly one-third of the entire net Estimate. Of the total subhead provision, some £1,044,000 will be utilised to make good deficiencies in the Land Bond Fund arising from the statutory halving of annuities under the Land Act, 1933. Indeed, the overall increase of £57,520 in the subhead this year is attributable mainly to the halving of purchase instalments payable by new allottees as land settlement proceeds. All allottees in congested areas, together with migrants and displaced employees getting holdings in non-congested areas, get the benefit of the halving of annuities.

As this subhead is in four separate parts, I think I can best deal with it by referring to each part individually.

Subhead G. 1 involves two items, viz. the purchase of land by the Land Commission for cash in the open market and the provision of life annuities under section 6 of the Land Act, 1965. Up to 1965, cash purchases under section 27, Land Act. 1950, were restricted to lands required for migrants' holdings or for the rearrangement of fragmented holdings. As Deputies are aware, however, these hampering restrictions were set aside by the Repeals Section of the Land Act, 1965, and purchases for cash are now open to all general purposes of the Land Acts. During the year ended 31st March last, a total of 107 properties, aggregating 5,329 acres, were purchased for cash under section 27 at a price of £327,375.

Section 6 of the Land Act, 1965, provides basic authority for the scheme of life annuities for elderly, incapacitated or blind persons who voluntarily sell their interest in land to the Land Commission. This scheme and the scheme for self-migration loans, to which I shall be referring later, were brought into operation early in 1967 and the details have been widely publicised. While it would still be rather premature to expect anything spectacular in terms of land intake from the schemes, it is heartening to be able to report that they are beginning to show positive results.

The objective of the life annuity scheme is to facilitate land structure reform by encouraging elderly, incapacitated or blind farmers to retire from farming and make their lands available for land settlement purposes. Elderly people, especially those with no obvious successor, find it beyond their physical capacity to work land properly and too often they are unable to carry on in the face of growing difficulties. Socially and economically the best results ought be obtained when land is in the hands of active persons.

The number of firm applications received to date is 339, of which 300 have been investigated. Of those 64 were withdrawn—the owners preferring to offer their lands to the Land Commission in the ordinary way, that is for cash or land bonds; a further 138 applications were eliminated at an early stage, mainly because the lands concerned were not found suitable. The remaining 98 applications developed into potential life annuity cases in which price negotiations were feasible.

Price agreement has, in fact, been reached with 25 of these landowners and the position is that in 11 cases the life annuities have been set up; in eight others the necessary arrangements are almost completed; and, in the remaining six cases, the exercise of a formal option by the vendors for a life annuity in lieu of all or part of the agreed price is awaited. Incidentally, the anticipated tendency on the part of vendors to opt for payment by way of part cash and part annuity is already becoming quite apparent. The area purchased by the Land Commission through the 11 completed cases is 563 acres and a further area of 504 acres is expected from the advanced cases.

In order to cater for the substantial expansion in the volume of purchases for cash—particularly in the pilot areas —and also to enable the scheme for payment of life annuities to make worthwhile progress, provision under subhead G.1 is being increased this year to £430,000—almost double last year's provision. It is scarcely necessary to remind the House that the main bulk of land acquisition is financed in land bonds issued under the Land Bond Orders made annually by the Minister for Finance. A series of bonds, of the total amount of £2 million, bearing interest at the rate of 7½ per cent per annum, was created by the Land Bond Order, 1968, for use in the current year.

I am satisfied that the substantially increased cash allocation now proposed, together with the large amount of Land Bonds created by the last Land Bond Order, will enable the Land Commission to push ahead with a purposeful land acquisition programme this year.

The second part of subhead G stems from section 5 of the Land Act, 1965, in which resides authority for the scheme enabling the Land Commission to make loans to progressive farmers in congested areas for the purchase of viable farms of their choice, subject to making their existing lands available to the Land Commission for land settlement purposes. As in the case of the life-annuity scheme this, too, is a new service, really a banking or credit service, with an overall limit of £10,000 including the price paid for the owner's old holding; it is intended to augment existing land settlement schemes and is, of course, additional to and again is not in substitution for the traditional migration programme carried out by the Land Commission. The primary objective of the scheme is to facilitate the Land Commission programme of land structure reform in the scheduled congested areas, as defined in the 1965 Act—Counties Donegal, Galway, Kerry, Leitrim, Mayo, Roscommon, Sligo and parts of Clare and West Cork. The scheme is intended to encourage initiative by providing necessary capital, through the machinery of the Land Commission, to enable progressive smallholders in the scheduled congested areas to improve their status by purchase in the open market of viable farms suitable to individual requirements, subject to making their existing lands available to the Land Commission as part of the loan arrangements.

The number of firm applications received to date is 120. Of these, 106 have been investigated and, perhaps not surprisingly, a substantial proportion failed at an early stage—mainly because the applicants' lands were considered unsuitable. In all, 40 applications have advanced to the vital stage at which price negotiations were authorised. Price agreement is, of course, an essential prerequisite to the making of an advance under the scheme and it is gratifying that in 18 of the 40 cases mentioned agreement on price has, in fact, been reached. This enabled these particular cases to progress further, with the result that six applicants have been assisted in migrating and have actually gone into possession of their new farms; two others are merely awaiting the completion of the necessary legal formalities before entering into possession of their new holdings and the remaining ten are on the lookout for alternative properties in the knowledge that substantial financial assistance by way of Land Commission loans will be forthcoming. In the six completed cases, loans and grants amount to about £25,000 and the transactions have resulted in an area of 259 acres being made available to the Land Commission. The other 12 cases represent a maximum commitment for Land Commission of some £72,000 in advances and grants and, on completion, will yield a further area of approximately 689 acres for the land settlement programme.

A sum of £120,000 is proposed for the scheme in the current year.

I should, perhaps, stress here that while every effort is being made to operate the life annuity and self-migration loans schemes with the utmost flexibility, they are intended primarily as additional sources of land for the Land Commission's programme. Accordingly, the suitability of the proffered lands for structural reform and the degree of urgency with which these lands are required by the Land Commission are necessarily of paramount importance in the determination of applications.

These schemes operate entirely on a voluntary basis and their success inevitably depends on the willingness of suitable landowners to adopt them. In both schemes there are many attractive features for the participants and I am confident that as they become more widely known these schemes will appeal to an increasing number of suitable applicants. From the land settlement standpoint, the fact that both schemes have, so far, produced an aggregate potential land-pool of over 2,000 acres is very encouraging and illustrates clearly that these new schemes can play a part in augmenting the Land Commission's traditional sources of land intake for land settlement purposes.

Informal booklets have been prepared for the guidance of landowners interested in the schemes and any Deputy who wishes can obtain copies by getting in touch with the Land Commission.

Subhead G. 3 provides £10,000 for payment in cash of compensation for tenancy interests resumed on the small outstanding residue of Congested Districts Board estates. The fourth and final part of the subhead relates to the payment by the Land Commission of auctioneers' commission on relevant purchases of land for cash and land bonds. It is anticipated that £60,000 will be required this year. Perhaps I should explain here that up to 1963 the practice was to pay auctioneers' commission only in respect of lands purchased by the Land Commission for cash under section 27 of the Land Act, 1950. This was extended in 1963 to properties purchased on a voluntary basis for land bonds. The extension of payment of commission on the lines indicated has proved a decided incentive to auctioneers to offer lands on their books to the Land Commission thus facilitating an acceleration in land acquisition for the relief of congestion. My own preference is for voluntary rather than compulsory transactions— and I freely acknowledge the co-operation and assistance of auctioneers in this matter.

Subhead H provides the funds for payment of gratuities pursuant to section 29 of the Land Act, 1950, to persons displaced from employment on estates taken over by the Land Commission for distribution. Last year, gratuities totalling £12,227 were paid to 56 ex-employees—an average of £219 each. Perhaps I should reiterate that displaced employees who are deemed competent to work land are automatically considered for allotments —indeed, this is only right and proper —but, where they are not found to be suitable for allotments, they are considered by the Land Commission for a cash gratuity, depending on such factors as length of service, personal and family circumstances, availability of alternative employment and so on. It is difficult to make an accurate fore cast of commitments under the subhead in any particular year because this depends on the level of acquisition activity and the extent to which estate workers become displaced from employment through these activities. Last year's figure of £15,000 is being repeated for the current year.

Subhead I, in the main, provides the funds required to meet the cost of the various estate improvement works which are such an important feature of land settlement. These works include the erection of dwelling-houses and out-offices; the provision of access roads; fencing and drainage; provision of water supply for domestic and stock requirements; turbary development; repair and maintenance of embankments. Subhead I is the focal point of the Vote inasmuch as it finances one of the most essential features of the land structure reform programme. Expenditure for last year totalled £815,000 including about £505,000 on building works. Some 440 men were employed on the various improvement works and their wage bill amounted to over £233,000.

For the current financial year the amount proposed under subhead I is £990,000 which represents an increase of £140,000 over last year's provision and amounts to about 25 per cent of the entire Estimate. This substantially increased provision will, I feel sure, be welcomed by Deputies, particularly those from rural areas, having regard to the importance of estate improvement and development works.

Late last year an announcement was made about an important new development being undertaken by the Land Commission in relation to lands earmarked for migrants and intended for distribution to tenants whose holdings are being rearranged. It has been decided that all such lands are to be rehabilitated prior to allotment. The rehabilitation consists of lime and fertiliser application — and the cost is about £8 an acre. In addition the Land Commission are also doing the preliminary (reclamation) work on these lands —such as drainage, removal of scrub, eradication of rushes and so on. The aim is to give these allottees the best possible start on their new holdings. It is to be hoped that this new development will induce more tenants to participate in rearrangement proposals involving land of varied fertility. The major portion of the cost involved is being borne direct by the Land Commission — a small proportion being charged to the allottee by means of an addition to his annuity.

Another important matter which was dealt with last year was the question of improving designs for houses and out-offices built by the Land Commission. As Deputies are, no doubt, aware dwelling houses provided by the Land Commission are fully serviced as to water supply and electricity, where practicable. The design and construction of these houses have recently been revised and many progressive features have been added to fit in with modern needs and trends. Improvements include cavity walling, better insulation, more satisfactory heating, cooking and storage facilities.

In consultation with An Foras Talúntais, a number of new out-office designs have been introduced. These represent a considerable advance in quality and layout and reflect the most up-to-date thinking on farm accommodation. The underlying intention is to provide a good basic set of outbuildings which can be readily adapted for expansion and development if the allottee chooses.

In addition, yard areas are being increased and blacktopping of yards, approach roads and access roads is being undertaken as a standard feature of improvement works associated with the provision of buildings on new holdings.

The sub-item entitled "Housing Loans" refers to the scheme under which advances up to £500 are made to farmers to supplement grants from the Department of Local Government for the erection of new houses and for reconstruction work on existing houses. During the past year the total amount paid out by way of loans for this purpose was £81,000 to 200 applicants. It is estimated that for the current year £75,000 will be required.

The application of work study techniques to the estate improvement works of the Land Commission continues. For the year 1967/68 productivity was 2.7 per cent greater than that for the previous year and was 56.5 per cent above that for the period before work study was introduced.

The amount set aside for Game and Wildlife Development, £95,000, is an increase of £15,000 on the sum provided last year.

During the past year the sum of £61,000 was paid out in respect of schemes of game improvement. Grants for the preservation and improvement of game resources will continue to be available to assist Regional Game Councils, representative of all appropriate interests, in carrying out approved locally-organised schemes of direct improvement of game stocks and habitat. It is hoped that the network of Game Councils, roughly one for each county, will be completed this year.

Despite the interruption of the shooting season and the restrictions of movement on the land necessitated by the overriding urgency of preventing the foot and mouth outbreak in Great Britain from affecting this country, good progress was made in preservation and restocking generally and it is hoped that sportsmen will reap the benefit by way of an increased head of game during the coming season. Because of the foot and mouth emergency, however, game-tourism suffered considerably last year.

Conservation of our heritage of wildlife is coming in for increasing and deserved attention. The acquisition of the first State refuge on the Wexford Slobs should be completed soon. The creation of further refuges is in hand as also are measures for the preservation of valuable wetlands, vital for wildfowl, which are threatened by drainage and development projects.

The preparation of new legislation on game and wildlife conservation is proceeding steadily and I hope to be able to introduce the Bill next year.

I have dealt in some detail with the more important subheads of the Lands Vote. As the remaining items are either unchanged from last year or else are token provisions, they do not seem to call for specific comment, but if Deputies wish to obtain further information about them I shall, of course, gladly supply it. I propose therefore to continue by reviewing the principal activities of the Land Commission during the year ended 31st March last. In some instances the statistics are still provisional but they are unlikely to vary to any significant extent from the final returns. The over-all results are quite satisfactory.

On the acquisition side, the aggregate area inspected during the year was 89,000 acres while the total intake of land amounted to about 33,400 acres. As the total area in the acquisition machine at 31 March, 1968, amounted to over 90,000 acres, acquisition prospects for the current year are particularly good.

As regards land settlement for the year the total area allotted amongst some 1,638 allottees was in the region 30,253 acres. The acreage distributed included the provision of 79 fully-equipped holdings for migrants and the rearrangement of 310 fragmented holdings. In all 93 new dwellinghouses and 142 new out-offices were provided for tenants and allottees during the year. With the increased funds which are now being made available I am hopeful that an accelerated rate of land division can be achieved in the present year.

The vesting of holdings and allotments was continued and, in all, over 2,400 holdings, parcels and rights of turbary were dealt with. Tenanted land —including residues of CDB estates— outstanding for vesting at 31 March, 1968, comprises approximately 5,900 holdings. These residual holdings, situated for the most part in western congested counties, now represent the remaining hard core of difficult tenanted land cases: they are being released for vesting according as the necessary rearrangement, enlargement or other improvement is carried out.

The position as regards collection of land annuities continues satisfactorily. Out of a collectable total of £2,772,163 for the year, the amount actually collected by 31 March, 1968, was £2,641,804.

As Deputies know there is now in operation a system of direct control by the Land Commission over the purchase of rural land by persons who are not "qualified persons" as defined in section 45 of the Land Act, 1965— principally non-nationals. The position generally now is that no interest in non-urban land can vest in a person who does not come within the categories of "qualified person" as defined in section 45 (1) of the Act except with the written consent of the Land Commission. As mentioned in previous years the general guideline in force is that permission would not be granted to non-nationals to purchase land in order to engage simply in those forms or lines of production commonly practised by our own farmers; "white-elephant" properties unable or unlikely to attract Irish purchasers in the market could be entertained for sale to outsiders. A non-national who could illustrate that he was going in for some special line with expertise and capital to back it up, and with export possibilities, could very well be acceptable. During the past year—apart from what might be called unobjectionable transactions, for example, those (a) arising solely from mortgage interests, (b) involving areas not exceeding five acres and (c) representing transfers between one non-citizen (individual or company) and another—the total acreage in respect of which the consent of the Land Commission, pursuant to section 45 of the Act, was given to the vesting of interests in land in non-qualified persons as individuals or companies controlled by non-citizens was 4,500 acres. A substantial proportion of the acreage involved consisted of the types of property which could hold no attraction for the ordinary Irish purchaser. The corresponding area for the previous year was 4,700 acres.

I might perhaps mention here that when the 1965 Act was being enacted many towns which had no distinct legal status as such came within the scope of section 45. These are referred to as non-municipal towns and are listed in part II of the First Schedule to the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963. I understand that the areas of these towns have now been precisely delimited by their appropriate planning authorities and accordingly I am considering the question of putting them on a par with municipal towns by excluding them from the section 45 restrictions by way of regulations. This would add to the convenience of the business community and the legal profession in the conveyancing of properties in these areas.

Last year reference was made to an important new task being undertaken by the Land Commission aimed at providing the vastly improved land structure pattern which is the essential foundation for a lasting solution to the western problem. The structural reform of sub-standard holdings coupled with the elimination of fragmentation and rundale is a prerequisite to the development of any purposeful agricultural programme in the West. The need for the establishment of economically viable farms as a basic ingredient of any modern agricultural system is generally recognised throughout the countries of Western Europe—and here at home it is now accepted that small farm areas must be underpinned by a dynamic campaign of land reform.

When opening the debate on the Lands Estimate for last year my predecessor referred to the fact that the Government had approved a proposal to initiate a vigorous campaign of land settlement in the pilot areas over and above the normal land settlement programme. This campaign was launched on 1st May, 1967, when a selected force of Land Commission inspectors commenced a detailed survey and analysis of all the holdings involved in the original pilot areas. The survey has now been completed for over 4,800 holdings comprising almost 205,000 acres and gives a complete picture of what needs to be done and what can be done to build up the basic farm structure in the pilot areas to the levels we require. To date 192 holdings— 6,300 acres—have been earmarked for compulsory acquisition or voluntary purchase and detailed inspection reports have been furnished for these. A total of 41 applications for migration involving 2,000 acres have been investigated and a pool of land totalling 2,600 acres in 61 properties has been acquired in these areas to facilitate structural reform. The overall ambition of land policy is to establish sound and worthwhile agricultural units, satisfying to the owner, in which productivity can be raised and which in turn will yield their quota in the campaign for competitive export of farming produce.

Turning to the Forestry Vote there is a net increase of £161,000 in the amount being provided for 1968-69 compared with 1967-68; this reflects increases on most of the expenditure subheads, offset by an increased allowance for Appropriations-in-Aid.

There is provision in the Estimate for a full planting programme of 25,000 acres although there was uncertainty at the time the Estimate was framed as to whether it would in fact prove possible to plant on that scale. It is now certain that this year's programme will be of the order of 22,000 to 23,000 acres. As the House knows, the difficulty here arises from the inadequacy of our plantable reserve and the fall-off in land acquisition in recent years. I believe we now have the means to overcome this problem to which I will refer further in dealing with subhead C.1.

Going now to the details of the Estimate, there are a number of minor subheads—B.1., B.2., C.3., and F—which require no particular comment this year.

Subhead A—Salaries, Wages and Allowances—at £907,000 shows an increase of £72,610 over the provision for 1967-68. The increased provision covers the normal growth of the inspectorate and forester staff in line with the expansion of the State Forests and a major overhaul of administrative and engineering staff which had not been strengthened for a long time and was unable to cope with the much increased work-load of recent years.

Under subhead E—Forestry Education—I should draw attention to the provision for the new Training Centre at Avondale House. This new Centre, now fully commissioned, will be used largely for refresher and specialised courses for our field staff and will play a very important role in keeping all our staff up to date with developing knowledge and techniques. In present-day conditions when forestry practice here as in other countries must undergo a continuing process of evolution in line with changing technological and economic circumstances, this development of improved communication and educational facilities within the Forestry Service is most valuable.

There remain, apart from subhead D (Grants for Afforestation) and subhead G (the John F. Kennedy Memorial Park) to which I will refer later, the main operational subheads: C.1, C.2, and H.

Subhead C.1 is the grant-in-aid for the acquisition of land. The balance in the fund on 1st April, 1968, was slightly over £204,000; with a new provision of £150,000, a total of £354,000 will be available for purchase of land in 1968-69.

Expenditure in 1967-68 was £123,261 in respect of a productive area of 14,713 acres acquired in 378 transactions. This was inadequate to keep the plantable reserve in equilibrium. The nominal plantable reserve now stands at about 58,000 acres but as this includes many areas, which, for one reason or another are not immediately available for planting, the true reserve is about 40,000 acres.

Last year my predecessor informed the House that the system of valuing land for forestry purposes had been radically altered and that the old ceiling-price of £10 per acre was no longer an inhibiting factor where higher prices were justified by the economic return prospects and where the higher prices were not out of line with market values.

The new system of valuation now being operated is a big break-through in the campaign which the Forestry Division has been waging over the last decade to put the whole State Forest Programme on a sound economic footing. It is imperative that we hold and strengthen the gains which have been made in the campaign if we are to be in a position to continue to develop the country's forest potential in face of rising costs. Only thus can we have a sound prospect of selling our produce in the future at acceptable prices in face of free international competition.

In the new system of land valuation, we have now for the first time succeeded in establishing a cost/benefit type analysis of each new area of land being included in the forest estate as the basis for optimum management policies. With the aid of detailed costing information built up over the past decade, each area being considered is now studied in relation to both its potential timber yield and the level of capital development cost likely to be involved and a price is determined which recognises its fair value for forestry purposes.

Under the new system, the range of prices which we are prepared to offer is much wider than under the old £10 ceiling-price system. Land of relatively low productive capacity will still command only a very low price, if it qualifies at all for purchase. For good forest land, however, valuations now range frequently up to twice the old ceiling-price and, in favourable circumstances when capital development costs will be minimal, may go substantially higher.

We have, in fact, under the new system, on occasions valued exceptionally attractive parts of blocks on offer at figures over £25 per acre. This does not mean, of course, that every farmer selling land to the Forestry Division can hope to get prices up into that bracket. It does mean, however, that any farmer can with confidence expect to get a fair market price for any land which, in the national interest, would be better devoted to forestry than to agricultural purposes. To put it simply, price should no longer be an obstacle to land acquisition for forestry purposes.

Unfortunately, it will take time to get the benefit from the new system in terms of improvement of our plantable reserve. The low intake last year represents the tail-end of the old situation but it will take time for farmers to react to our new approach and there is an inevitable time-lag in inspection, negotiation and legal conveyance.

The first need is to step up the flow of offers and I would ask every Deputy in the House who represents a rural area to assist me by encouraging his constituents to give us the opportunity of buying the land we need. It would not help, of course, if we were inundated with offers of useless submarginal land; this would occupy wastefully the time of my officers who must work hard if they are to secure good results and do so quickly. Neither would I wish to see a sudden heavy flow of offers of very small extent which would also clog the machine. Every Deputy must know, however, where in his constituency there are substantial areas of average to good forest land which could be offered to us. It is these areas on which we must concentrate if we are to restore our planting programme quickly. My Department will be very happy to give any Deputy who responds to my plea advice as to the likely areas in his constituency. There is a very fruitful opportunity here for Deputies to assist in a practical way in furthering one of this country's most promising fields of development.

Subhead C.2., which covers the cost of Forest Development and Management, shows an increase of £105,400 on the provision for 1967-68. Among the factors contributing to the overall increase are increased provision for replacement of worn-out and outmoded equipment, extra charges arising from devaluation, and allowance to cover the cost of a sick pay scheme for forest workers introduced last year.

The total sum provided for labour under the various heads is £2,375,000. With continued limitation of the planting programme and also continued curtailment of road construction programmes due to engineering staff shortages, it is now clear that average employment this year will be at a somewhat lower level than last year when 3,851 men were employed.

No allowance was made, of course, for the 11th round which has been granted to forestry workers as from the 1st April, 1968. This, along with a reduction in the working week from 45 to 42½ hours and the introduction of a service pay scheme for longterm employees, will involve additional expenditure amounting to perhaps as much as £450,000 in the year on this Subhead.

This is a very sharp increase in costs which had already risen steadily over the past decade and it underlines the importance of the continuing and very successful efforts which have been made by my Department over recent years to improve productivity and optimise working methods, techniques and management policies. The ultimate object is to secure from our forests the maximum possible yield of raw material for forest industries at the lowest possible production cost per cubic foot of timber. Thus only can we hope to secure an economic return from the substantial national investment in afforestation.

This problem of rising costs is not peculiar to this country. It has been causing increasing concern throughout Europe for a number of years past and has even given rise to serious question as to the economic viability of substantial areas of existing forest in a number of European countries. As recently as this month, the whole question has been the subject of further intensive reappraisal by the European Forestry Commission in conjunction with the Economic Commission for Europe. The problem as seen by the Commission is that Europe's timber requirements are increasing and will continue to increase at an accelerating rate. There is room for expansion in the output of timber from European forests to meet part of the growing gap between supply and demand but the big question is whether Europe's foresters can produce enough timber at cost levels which the processing industries can afford to pay while operating in a free economy. Throughout Europe, operations in existing forest areas are now tending to be confined more and more to the more productive areas and a searching reappraisal of all forest costs is now getting under way.

Our position in Ireland is highly interesting. On the one hand we face the challenge that virtually all our forest production in the future must come from man-made plantations on the creation of which heavy capital investment has been incurred. On the other hand, these plantations, under intensive management and with the climatic advantage which we possess, can give very high timber yields. In the final analysis, the critical factor will be the success of our pursuit of economic management objectives. While so far I have had only limited opportunity since I became Minister to see the practical application of our forest management policies in the field, what I have seen and what I have learned has given me confidence that we are on right lines. I believe we can have faith in the future viability of our national forest undertaking.

I would nonetheless be happier if in the nature of things it were possible to ensure greater continuity in the employment in each forest area. I recognise that to some extent variation in the level of employment is an inherent feature of forest development and that this is especially true in our present situation in which the inadequacy of our plantable resources gives rise to particular local difficulties in securing balanced levels of annual work programmes. Nonetheless I am anxious to do whatever is possible to avoid redundancies and I have asked the staff of the Forestry Division to make every effort to find ways and means of easing such problems.

On subhead H—Appropriations-in-Aid—allowance has been made in the Estimate for an increase of £100,000 in revenue from timber sales. Markets for both sawlog material and pulpwood are buoyant and I am confident that this additional revenue will be secured. Indeed we could sell far more material if we had it. The indications for the future are of a steady increase in output of small dimension material for which markets should be readily available. On the sawlog market the most we can expect over the next few years is to maintain present production with perhaps a marginal increase.

There remains for special mention subhead G which provides for the John F. Kennedy Memorial Park at Slieve Coillte, County Wexford. The provision in the current year's Estimate covered a substantial part of the development stage for this project which was brought to finality on schedule in time for the formal opening of the Park by the President on the 29th May last.

The primary purposes of this project are scientific and educational. Great care has been taken in the planning of the project and there is no doubt that it will fulfil its primary objectives.

It has also had the subsidiary but important objective of providing an amenity of a high order, of value and interest to our own people and of advantage to our tourist trade. I think everyone who has visited the Park will agree with me that in this it has been an unqualified success. Already in its first season it has attracted 75,000 visitors in the four months from June to September.

This amenity and tourist objective is of course being developed extensively also in many of our forest properties throughout the country. Already, as you are aware, a number of forest areas have been opened to the public—some as formal forest parks—others on a more informal basis. I propose in the near future to arrange for the more rapid extension of this work which, I am fully satisfied, has great potential both for the enjoyment of our own people and for the development of the tourist trade and I shall have more to say on this subject in connection with next year's Forestry Estimate.

Results to date in areas opened to tourists have been most encouraging. Taking for example Gougane Barra Forest Park in County Cork, the records show a total of 74,000 summer visitors in its first year of operation.

The Forestry Division are also engaged—in co-operation with the Game and Wildlife Branch of the Department —in experiments in relation to game development in the State Forests. While the immediate object of these exercises is the improvement of sporting facilities the long term effects on the conservation of wild life will, it is expected, be significant.

The State forests are a very substantial national investment. It is my intention that in this and the coming years these resources should be cared not only for their past and primary objectives of timber production but for the multiplicity of the aims to which they lend themselves. It is only thus that the people of this country can recoup the full benefits of their investment in State afforestation.

I have in this speech made no reference to private forestry for the subvention of which at a normal level provision is made in subhead D. I am aware of the efforts made in the past to encourage more active participation by our farmers and landowners in the national afforestation programme and know that a fair measure of progress has been made. I have asked my officials to re-examine the steps so far taken for the encouragement of private forestry and I propose to discuss the matter with them in the near future. In the meantime I would like to assure the House that I share with many of our Deputies an anxiety to ensure that an effective contribution to our forestry objectives is made by the private sector.

: Ba mhaith liom ar dtús cúpla focal a rá i dtaobh an Aire. Tá Aire nua againn agus ba mhaith liom comhgháirdeachas a dhéanamh leis. Tá súil agam go mbeidh sláinte an-mhaith aige siúd is go bhfuil obair chrua le déanamh aige sa Roinn. Duine an-chairdiúil is ea an tAire nua. Tá súil agam go ndéanfaidh sé a chuid oibre ar dhóigh a shásóidh gach Teachta.

I should like to extend congratulations and good wishes to Deputy Faulkner on his appointment as Minister for Lands. This is customary in the case of a new Minister presenting his first Estimate to the House. I hope the Minister will enjoy the good health which will enable him to carry out the duties assigned to him in the Department of Lands.

The Department of Lands may be regarded by many Deputies and, indeed, by the general public as a Department that does not appear to be an active Department, as a Department that does not play a very important rôle in the every-day lives of the people. Those of us who have long service in the House are accustomed to hearing various Ministers introducing the Estimate from year to year. We all will agree that, regardless of who was Minister at the time, the main theme of the Estimate for the Department of Lands over the past 25 to 30 years has never changed. In the case of the Land Commission the figures may vary; there may be a little more land acquired; there may be a few additional holdings allocated. Similarly, in the case of the Forestry Division, there may be additional land acquired and some additional acreage planted.

Whilst we have seen changes, in some cases of a revolutionary character, in relation to other Government Departments we have not seen any positive or progressive steps taken by the Department of Lands in relation to the solving of what still appears to be one of our greatest national ills, namely, the great congestion in many parts of this country and also the very serious problem of the flight from the land, particularly in western areas.

We all agree that the Land Commission is a very big body that moves very slowly. Various Ministers for Lands have carried out investigations to see how the work of the Land Commission can be accelerated but, in the main, the position remains unchanged. I should like this new Minister for Lands to depart from the practice of previous Ministers for Lands—his predecessor and his predecessor's predecessor—who said, when approached by members of this House in relation to the activities of the Land Commission, they had no responsibility. The least the Minister can do is to give Members of this House, and, indeed, the constituents, the courtesy of a hearing. If the Land Commission is bound up in red tape then the only link between the Members of this House and the Land Commission—which, in fact, means the only link between the Land Commission and the people of this country—is the Minister for Lands. We are not asking too much when we ask the Minister for Lands to set aside whatever regulation his predecessor had on record whereby he refused to meet deputations in relation to land division problems.

I know very well it is no pleasure for a Deputy to have to request the Minister for Lands to receive a deputation to discuss a serious problem of congestion in the constituency or to give positive reasons why definite action should be taken by the Land Commission in a particular case or to complain to the Minister why, in the opinion of the Deputy or the general public, the Land Commission are not acting with the speed and efficiency one would expect from it. It has been the practice that the Minister refuses to see such Deputies by saying he will not interfere with the workings of the Land Commission nor with the day-to-day workings of the Land Commission. We do not expect any Minister to do that but we expect him to give his ear to the grievances and the problems that exist in every part of the country in relation to congestion.

Like Deputies, Ministers are now in receipt of very handsome salaries and they are expected at least to be of service to the community and, where Deputies have a genuine grievance and request to see a Minister, then all we ask is that the Minister will extend sufficient courtesy to the public representatives and to the people who wish to convey whatever views the deputation may have to put to him and then transmit them to the Land Commission because he has immediate recourse to the senior officers of the Land Commission. All the Minister would have to do would be to send for them, tell them he had received the deputation, ask them if the complaints they made are justified and, if they are, to put the matter right immediately.

If the new Minister for Lands, Deputy Faulkner, did that, he would be breaking new ground and gain a certain amount of confidence from the House and the country, which his predecessor did not get, because of the stand Deputy Moran took, as Minister for Lands, in relation to these matters. I am absolutely satisfied that, in the past, it has been the policy of many Ministers, in so far as possible, to give the blind eye and the deaf ear to the pleas of the public and the requests of Deputies. Let us hope the new Minister for Lands will be the first Minister who is prepared to meet representatives of this House and of the Seanad and their constituents on all matters relating to forestry and to the activities of the Land Commission. This is one way in which satisfactory results can be obtained. I really feel it is an effective way by which Members of this House may utilise the services of the Minister appointed by the Taoiseach and approved by this House in the discharge of his duties as Minister for Lands.

The whole purpose of the Estimate for the Department of Lands is an annual review of Land Commission activities and the problem of congestion. There still remains a great volume of congestion. There are always more applicants for land than there is land to give. The Government should set about tackling the problem of congestion in a more positive way. The annual report submitted by the Land Commission is not sufficiently detailed to be helpful. A report should be made available to the Members of this House and to the country in which the activities of the Land Commission and the Forestry Branch are shown, county by county, and reference should be made each succeeding year to the position in the previous year. The only way we can gauge progress is by dealing with the problems county by county. It is all very well to say that so many thousand acres have been acquired for the relief of congestion, so many have been divided and so many have been offered. The time has come when we should have a more detailed annual report giving the counties in which land is acquired and land is allocated and further particulars in relation to the activities of the Land Commission.

The Government seem to have had no definite planned policy over a period of years. In local government we hear a lot of talk about five year plans and ten year plans, but so far as the relief of congestion is concerned there seems to be no definite target set. It is time for the Land Commission to sit back with the Minister for Lands and stare into the mirror and see themselves in reality. The smallholders, the uneconomic holders and those who are not in a position to eke out an existence on their small holdings have been expecting for many years to get an increase in the amount of land they are working as a result of the activities of the Land Commission.

As is well known, we have a very substantial number of small holdings in this country, particularly holdings of between 18 and 35 acres. A holding of land of between 18 and 35 acres cannot, in my opinion, be described as an economic holding. The Land Commission are exceedingly slow in bringing up the large number of smallholdings we have to the standard of economic holdings. We are told that the size of an economic holding on which a man could have grazing, tillage and meadowing, should be in the region of 50 acres. With present-day standards a holding of 50 acres or 55 acres will not yield a very high financial return to a farmer who has to educate his family, pay his overheads, work his land, and have it well stocked to get the maximum return.

We also realise that in recent years the value of land has increased substantially. There is no prospect in the future of the value of land falling. I think it is a very good thing that land has held its value. From time to time other items may have fallen, but we are glad that the value of land has held its own. There was a time when it could be said that the market value of land was £100 per statute acre. Then we reached the stage when it could be said that the market value of land was £150 per statute acre. Now we can see land being sold in the public market at £180 per statute acre and in some rare instances fetching £200 per statute acre.

That is all very fine for the purchaser who can afford to buy land on the public market at £180 per statute acre, but what about the smallholder who has to maintain his holding, and rear a family on a holding of, say, 35 acres? He may not be able to obtain the money necessary to purchase an addition to his holding. The Agricultural Credit Corporation may be of no great advantage to such a person. As a matter of fact, they are not.

There are rare instances in which banks will advance money for the purchase of additional land, but a hard working man may already owe a reasonable sum to a banking institution and he may have difficulty in competing in the public market. He cannot compete against the moneyed man with the substantial cheque book. The result is that the smallholders throughout the length and breadth of the country cannot compete in the public market with the well-to-do section of the community who have the financial resources of the banking institutions behind them. We must give thought to the poor man who cannot write a lavish cheque in order to extend his holding. That is where the Land Commission could be of the greatest possible service to the smallholders.

While many people may have lost faith and confidence and trust in the smallholders. I would never for one moment lose faith and confidence and trust in them. They are the most industrious, hardworking, dependable and reliable section of the community. Let us think back to the war years. Those of us who are old enough to remember will realise that the small farmers with 20, 30 or 40 acres provided the wheat, oats, beet and barley, and produced food for man and beast during the emergency with skill, industry and efficiency. These small men are the back-bone of the country and, so far as possible, we should endeavour to improve their standard of living and their circumstances. We should help them to extend their holdings and make their lot more satisfying and satisfactory than it has been heretofore.

The Land Commission have an idea of the work which is before them, but they have been spending too long examining ideas. What is wanting is a display of courage. We are told—and the Minister referred to this a few moments ago—that the staffs of the Land Commission are being reorganised, that there is a shortage of personnel in certain sections of the Land Commission and particularly in the inspectorate. I find it hard to believe that the Department are short of inspectors. I find that extremely difficult to credit.

If the Land Commission published a notice in any of the daily papers saying they were short of inspectors to get through the volume of work they have to do, I am sure they would be deluged with applications. I am not saying that all the applicants would be suitable but I am sure that after interviews and tests the appetite of the Land Commission for more staff would be satisfied. I am not prepared to believe that because of a shortage of staff the activities of the Land Commission must be held up. There may be Deputies in this House who for one reason or another might be inclined to believe it, but I do not believe that they cannot get all the staff they want to carry out their work. All they need do is look for them, pick the best out of the numerous applications which would be available, and pay them well. If they do that I have no doubt that the Land Commission, by this time 12 months, could be overstaffed.

I am not satisfied at all with the progress report that has been submitted in relation to the acquisition or division of land. Everyone knows that the easiest way to get land is by negotiation rather than by compulsory acquisition. With compulsory acquisition, there are long and very tedious formalities: notice has to be served; there is a long time-lag for the purpose of the appeal, a further time-lag before the case is heard by the Land Commission Court, and another time-lag before the decision is given. The handiest and best way of obtaining land is by negotiation except in the case of absentee landlords. In this connection the Land Commission should lose no time in having such land acquired and allocated amongst the local deserving applicants, smallholders, cottage tenants, farmers' sons, old IRA applicants or others who may, in the opinion of the Land Commission, qualify for additional land.

Before I leave that I should like to refer to the various types of people that are qualified to obtain land from the Land Commission, and I should like to make very special reference to the vested tenants of county council cottages who reside convenient to the estates being divided. Such persons should be given the benefit of at least accommodation plots to the extent of six to eight acres. There are holdings not alone in my own constituency but elsewhere in which land is divided and where the most industrious people are the rural cottiers, those people living in the council cottages who take a few acres of conacre, who take grazing land and have to purchase meadowing during the latter weeks of May and June and who have to pay high prices for hay in the form of meadowing or in cocks during the months of June and July.

These cottiers are very limited in number, because under the Local Government Regulations local authorities are now advised not to erect isolated cottages outside urban districts but to erect them in groups. However, if there is a holding to be divided in the vicinity, an effort should be made to see that accommodation land will be made available for the cottiers who have proved themselves to be excellent at the cultivation of the land in their care. As I say, these people have to pay high prices for conacre. I have known them to pay £18 to £23 for tillage land, and to pay excessive amounts for hay and other requirements. Where these cottiers are sufficiently interested in the advancement of themselves and their families they usually keep a cow or two. In many instances they have been unable to get the grazing of those cows. Because they were of the lower income group, so to speak, they were not the type of persons who would readily be admitted to a high conacre letting. Therefore, we should ensure that where land is being divided these most worthy applicants will be given an accommodation plot in the region of 5 to 8½ acres in addition to their own plots. This could very easily be paid with the cottage annuity direct to the Land Commission.

I have seen no great evidence of Land Commission activity at public auctions in many parts of the country. While more money is being provided this year—and I welcome this; it is a step in the right direction—I should like to see the Land Commission entering more competitively into the public market. The State has a bounden duty to assist those people who cannot buy the land for themselves in order that they may remain on the land. We hear a great deal of talk from Ministers, from churchmen and others about the flight from the land. The one way in which you can keep people on the land is to give them sufficient land to enable them to live there. It is heartbreaking for people who are genuinely concerned about rural Ireland to see the position that prevails of deserted homesteads and houses locked up, a complete sign of decay followed by the closing of schools, and the emptiness of churches. If there is one Government Department that can play a practical part in keeping people on the land it is the Department of Lands.

The Land Commission have undoubtedly done a certain amount of praiseworthy work in the past, but they are not sufficiently ambitious or determined. They have not displayed any great foresight. They are not tackling the problem of congestion in various parts of the country with the force and determination that is called for. The Land Commission are most certainly in the position to improve the standard of the existing smallholders in western areas, in southern areas and in the congested districts in the east and the midlands, not forgetting parts of Cavan and Monaghan as well.

A little additional money is being provided so that the Land Commission may purchase more land in the public market. A survey should be carried out with the least possible delay so that in areas where lands come on the public market there will not be the rushing down of inspectors a day or two before the auction, to see whether or not they are to attend and to enter the contest to obtain the land. Usually the Land Commission representatives turn up when the auction is over and the lands disposed of. There are sufficient maps available in the Land Commission to enable maps to be put on the desks of the chief inspectors showing the areas in which the Land Commission should act with speed in relieving congestion, so that whatever lands become available in such districts may be purchased for the purpose of relieving congestion.

I have known congested areas in which numerous smallholders were put to the pin of their collars to eke out a miserable existence; I have known lands to become available on the public market, auctions to take place and the Land Commission to display no interest whatsoever in competing for such lands. All land that comes on the public market should be of concern to the Land Commission and the Commission should make up their minds whether or not they want to purchase them for the relief of congestion. We have a responsibility towards the man who wants to remain on the land, to marry and bring up a family on the land, and the one way in which we can ensure that this process will continue is to see that land is made available for the right type of person to remain in rural Ireland. The Land Commission must be alive to the fact that there are many sons of small farmers who, having seen the hard times and the endeavours of their fathers and grandfathers to eke out an existence on very limited small holdings, with keen competition from moneyed men for conacre which may become available, realise that any hope of ever buying a farm is remote because of the price of land and become resigned to leaving rural Ireland because the prospect of getting land other than on the public market is practically nil.

There is a great demand for land for suitable sons of small farmers who have no money with which to buy land and who have not sufficient security to borrow in order to purchase land. Could we have an explanation from the Minister why lands which have been in the possession of the Land Commission for many years are let in conacre year after year? When are the Land Commission going to dispose of all the land they have on hand which is let in conacre? For what reason do the Land Commission continuously let land year after year? Is it to make money through the high cost of conacre, or is it to put their hands down deep into the pockets of the local smallholders who are the prospective applicants for land and who think they have a claim on land when they are on the list of persons who have had lands in conacre from the Land Commission? I think the answer is that it is a means by which the Land Commission can raise easy money at the expense of bringing about competition between smallholders in an area. Everybody knows that if you continuously set land, particularly tillage land, unless it is set in the proper rotation it becomes run-out and in many cases lands which have been set by the Land Commission have not been properly fertilised. The time has come when the Land Commission should have a stocktaking of their own activities and should cease letting these lands and instead allocate them to the most deserving of the small, uneconomic holders in the areas. The Commission must have a tremendous list of people who have applied for a transfer of holdings and who are prepared to surrender their own smallholdings in exchange for an economic holding elsewhere.

I could never understand why there is such criticism of people coming to holdings in the midlands from the west of Ireland. My experience has been that these people are hardworking, industrious and dependable and they have worked their holdings in an entirely satisfactory manner. Not alone have they worked their holdings in a highly efficient manner but they are good neighbours and good friends of the older residents in the area. They have fitted perfectly into local activity. It is a great thing that the land has fallen into the hands of people who appreciate it as much as they do. On the other hand, there is in the midlands a vast number of smallholders and the Land Commission will require about 50 years before they come to solve this problem. It may benefit the great, great grandchildren of the present occupiers and smallholders if the present rate of progress continues.

I could never understand, either, why in the course of 12 or 18 months, particularly with all the statistics available to the Land Commission, they would not know exactly where every single smallholder was situated and in the event of an estate of 300, 400 or 500 acres coming into their hands they would not transfer people from the most congested areas in my own area Laois-Offaly, Kilkenny, parts of Kildare and in North Tipperary, to fully economic holdings where they will have fully serviced houses and at least 50 to 60 acres and leave the smallholdings from which they cannot get an existence to be divided up in a resettlement scheme amongst the people left in the area. If three or four such people could be taken out of every townland in which there are smallholders the constant drop would certainly wear away the stone and eventually there would be some improvement in the congestion problem. I am not saying that the problem of congestion is confined to Donegal, the west of Ireland or parts of Cork, for it probably exists in every county. That is why the Land Commission would be very well advised to earmark the large holdings they have for the purpose of creating economic holdings, bring in those who are living on small holdings so that these small holdings can be reallotted, thereby solving to some extent the congestion in particular areas.

In order to qualify for land one must own land. I realise there is not enough land for everybody who makes application for land. We are all agreed on that, but I would ask the Minister to give some consideration to the sons of farmers, the sons who are not in a position to buy land. Two or three sons may be working on their father's holding. They may be dedicated to the land. They would all like to remain on the land. Of course, three sons and a father cannot stay on one small holding of 20 or 30 acres. There should be some scheme, therefore, whereby these young men could obtain some land from the Land Commission. The land could be leased to them until they were in a position to purchase it outright.

There are splendid young men in rural Ireland today. I hear our young people criticised on television, on the radio and in the newspapers and, very often, a very strange picture is painted of the young people in rural Ireland. Our young people today are as good, or perhaps better, than their fathers and grandfathers before them.

: Hear, hear.

: A clap on the back is worth all the kicks given elsewhere. We live in different times. Our world is far removed from that of our fathers and grandfathers. It is heartbreaking to see the best of our young Irish boys having to emigrate. They emigrate not for love of adventure but because they must go owing to economic circumstances. The Land Commission could help to stem the tide of emigration by providing land for these young men. They have, as things are, no stake in the country. They become disheartened and disillusioned. They pack their bags and go. They are not afraid of hard work. If they had work they would work 18 hours a day. On the other hand, titled gentlemen seem to have no difficulty in getting land. The real value where this country is concerned is the hardworking farmer's sons and not the belted earl. Titled gentlemen own a considerable acreage of our land.

The Land Commission have a duty to remedy the situation that exists. The new Minister should devise some scheme designed to provide land for the sons of farmers. They should be given a certificate negotiable in the Agricultural Credit Corporation so that they will have the finance to stock the land and equip themselves with the necessary machinery. All these young men want is sufficient land to enable them to make a living and rear their families in conditions of Christian decency. That is all they want. With regard to the certificate I mentioned, it is very difficult for smallholders to stock and equip their lands if they are financially embarrassed. The Land Commission should go security for the money necessary in order that an allottee may work his land to its fullest advantage.

We all know the many cases in which small farmers get land, for which they are deeply grateful. No matter how the Minister examines the Land Commission records he will find very few defaulters in relation to land. It is to the credit of the Land Commission that there are so few defaulters. If one knew the background of these people who have obtained land one would appreciate that, though their financial circumstances are by no means good, still they tell the Land Commission that they are financially sound. They do this because they fear that, if they disclose to the Land Commission they are not financially sound, they will not get the land.

Though they tell the Land Commission they are financially sound, when they get the land, many of them have to be at the mercy of the local bank manager—though, I may say, many bank managers are reasonably generous men, particularly in rural Ireland. Otherwise, these people have to seek the financial assistance of more well-to-do members of their families. If we want these people to be really independent of bank managers, of neighbours and of their own families, we must ensure that, when the Land Commission are giving them land, they should be given access to the Agricultural Credit Corporation for credit for £X for X number of years so that they will be enabled to make the best possible use of that land in the shortest possible time.

The Land Commission have failed miserably in relation to the majority of existing holdings under their jurisdiction in the matter of houses and outoffices. When we see a Land Commission long-term loan of £500 to supplement a local authority or a Department grant of the same amount for the erection of a new house on a holding, do we not know that £500 today can be but a drop in the ocean in comparison with the cost of building a house or even to improve the standard of farm outoffices? Farm outoffices which were good enough for a young farmer's father or grandfather are not good enough for him today, and more power to him. We have got completely new methods in every branch of agriculture. Rural electrification is changing the face of rural Ireland, and that is why I think the Land Commission's house and outoffice programme has not in any way brought radical changes to rural Ireland.

From Mayo to West Cork, from there to the Wexford coast, from there to Clogherhead and from there to Donegal, how many cases have we of smallholders who are paying their Land Commission annuity and who are living in mud-walled and, in many instances, rat-infested, thatched hovels because, for some reason or another, their financial circumstances have never allowed them to erect new houses on their holdings? The grants and loans that are available have proved to be insufficient to enable them to erect new homes.

That is why I say the Land Commission have a clear responsibility in respect of every Land Commission tenant, so that, if it has been established that a tenant has not the financial resources to enable him to erect a new house, it is the duty of the Land Commission to provide such a tenant with a modern, clean homestead. Repayment for such homesteads should be put on the rent over a period of 50 years. Deputy Corry is laughing. Why I say 50 years is because the 20 year period of repayment means that the man who erects the house will have to repay the cost in his own lifetime and then it will pass to his son or daughter. Surely sons and daughters of Land Commission tenants should have some responsibility for repayment.

If the lifetime were to be only 20 years—God knows Fianna Fáil built houses that had not even a lifetime of 20 years, though they built an odd good one which still stands—then the 20 year period of repayment would be reasonable, but surely to goodness the family who will succeed the father who originally got the house should share responsibility for repayment. I could never understand the reason for this short repayment period by comparison with the potential age of the house which, if it were properly built, should last from 80 to 100 years.

That is why I have said that this is something for the new Minister for Lands to get his teeth into. If he does, he will not get criticism from us but a clap on the back. May I say to him that, if he does not do it, I will do it after the next general election?

: Good man.

: There is nothing surer than that, after the next general election, we will have a Fine Gael Government and they will most certainly tackle this problem with energy, ability, courage and determination. I can assure the Land Commission that overnight they will know where they stand, because the volumes of red tape binding them today will be cut immediately. It is the duty of the Land Commission to provide our people with land on which are built proper houses and outoffices and the other facilities required properly to run a farm. The big question mark is: are the Government concerned to stop the flight from the land, to provide proper houses for the people on the land——

: They are not.

: The Government have failed miserably in this respect. The Land Commission put before us year after year a patch-quilt report containing a load of statistics, aimed everywhere and pointed nowhere. It is something which in the long run will not create an effective impression on the country. That is why I ask the Minister to arrange for a Land Commission report annually on a county basis so that we can see where land has been acquired, where it is being purchased, where it has been divided, how many acres have been allotted to each holding, how many houses have been erected, in which townlands this work has been done and so that we can point our fingers at where progress is being made.

In the present report system we cannot do that. We cannot learn with accuracy where land has been divided or acquired for division. However, that is something for the Minister to do and something that I feel the Minister will at least examine. In this Estimate also there is some money provided for land improvement. May I say a very modest sum is in the Estimate for land improvement. Is it not about time that the Land Commission stopped tinkering with this problem? If they are going to give land to an allottee they should give him good land and not say: "Here is your allocation of land. Included in it is a good portion of tillage, a portion of grazing and the run down to the river of furze, bushes, marshy land and scrub"—all of which will have to be reclaimed at the expense of the man who gets it.

I think that before the Land Commission give out land they should have it reclaimed, they should have the scrub and the furze removed from it, they should have proper drains opened up and have it properly fenced, because all this is going to eventually become a liability on the man who gets it. Is it not as easy to give the people the land in good form and in a high state of cultivation as to give them land covered with scrub and rushes? Why not manure it and put it into good heart? Why not drain it and, if necessary, the Land Commission and the Land Rehabilitation Scheme people could work hand-in-hand in seeing to it that every acre of land to be allocated by the Land Commission for the relief of congestion would be fully reclaimed in perfect condition and be in, as the auctioneers say, "great heart" before it would be allotted to the applicants.

The Land Commission have not, in my opinion, done a satisfactory job on land improvement or reclamation in the past. Tinkering with this problem over a few miserable pounds is neither here nor there when you think of the way money is spent wastefully and lavishly. I am not going to give an example of the cost of the referendum. No one will ever know what that cost. Nevertheless, money has been spent unwisely, money has been spent on a form of insanity. Would it not be good value to spend money on improving the heart of land being allotted by the Land Commission for the relief of congestion in rural Ireland? That is what we are asking the Minister to do. If he shows no sign of activity, I have little doubt but after the next general election Fine Gael will show most enthusiastic activity in this regard.

I am glad there has been a new design of Land Commission house. The old Land Commission house, as we knew it, was not or is not today in keeping with the trend of modern architecture. I have seen some of the most recently built Land Commission houses and I want to place on record my appreciation of the architecture of these houses. I think they are a vast improvement. They are well designed. They look well and are most attractive in all aspects. One of the best jobs the Land Commission did in relation to housing, in so far as a nice, attractive house was concerned, was a scheme of houses built on the Frank's Estate, Castletown, Mountrath, in my own constituency. It is on the main Dublin-Limerick road. Anybody leaving the village of Castletown—everybody knows it because that is the village where the hairpin bend is—may see these houses. They are the first houses outside the village on the left going south. They are as nice a house as is in Ireland today, with a beautiful design. Whoever was responsible for the design of such an attractive and modern country homestead deserves a word of appreciation and praise. The great mystery is how he got away with it because the pattern of Land Commission houses was "as quick as possible, as cheap as possible and with as little as possible". It was a great change to see a lovely modern house put on the Frank's Estate for the people who were sufficiently lucky to obtain portions of that holding.

I hope from now on that every new house the Land Commission build will be of that type, or even more up-to-date, with every modern facility, particularly the modern facilities for the farmer's wife. I saw houses built years ago by the Land Commission and the kitchen, where the farmer's wife was supposed to undertake all household activities, was hardly large enough to turn round in. It is a nice thing to see that in the kitchen, which, as well as being the dining room, is the workshop of the housewife—that is where she works all day, where the baking has to be carried out, where all the household duties have to be undertaken—a reasonable amount of space is being left for the family to undertake general activities.

I do not think in rural Ireland you can ever divorce the kitchen from the dining-room. The kitchen is a part of country life and the kitchen always will be a part of country life, where we can sit and talk and chat and eat. It is the centre of activity in every house in rural Ireland. In the most recently-built Land Commission houses I understand there are very modern facilities attached to these kitchens. I hope that that will continue. We have reached a stage now when rural electrification has changed the whole face of Irish life and when the farmer's wife will now be availing herself of all the electrical appliances and equipment that will be available. I am sure that the kitchen will be designed so that that may be done.

For the information of the Minister may I refer very briefly to the gratuities that are available from the Land Commission for ex-employees. I think the Minister said today that in the present financial year these gratuities are £219 per head. That is very little. The Land Commission can afford to be and should be far more generous in dealing with ex-employees. I know that, in accordance with what we are told by the Minister, the Land Commission give them an option of either an allotment of land or a sum of money as a gratuity. It is based on the number of years' service. Where an employee has been satisfactory and loyal to his master, and where he is compelled to leave that employment because of the acquisition by the Land Commission of this holding, ample and suitable compensation for the loss of employment should be given.

I feel very disheartened that, during the financial year under review, on an average the amount of gratuity to former employees on estates is in the region of £219. Here we have men losing their work, being completely disturbed. Many have to seek work elsewhere and may not be able to get it elsewhere. Even if they were offered land, the small holding they would be offered would be of little value to them because they probably would not be financially equipped to work the land.

It is time the Minister for Lands and the Land Commission had a look at this matter again. I have known these grants to be paid to several former employees. An effort should be made to have the gratuities brought more into line with what one would expect when being deprived of one's work.

Perhaps the Minister in the course of his reply will deal with an article which appeared in an edition of Build. This edition of Build has on its cover:

How the Land Commission and Forestry Department destroyed the Rockingham Estate.

The date of the edition is May, 1967. There is an article included inside which accuses the top men in the Department of Lands and Forestry of destroying the Rockingham Estate. "The Rape of Rockingham" is the title of this article. It is by no means complimentary to the Land Commission or indeed to anyone associated with the Land Commission.

I am not familiar with the circumstances, hence I do not propose to offer any criticism; but I take this article on its face value. If what they write is right, I think there should be both questions and inquiries. There is a further article in the same edition entitled "Rockingham—the lie dodger exercise." May I quote?

A sum totalling close on £½ million has been spent on what amounts to almost total destruction. Admittedly about 1,000 acres of land has been planted in forestry which could be a positive thing but which can be done commercially by anyone for around £10,000.

I do not propose to reflect in any way on the work that has been undertaken in Rockingham. As I have said, I do not intend to be critical or to subscribe to criticism in relation to the work done. If there has been forestry work undertaken there, more power; if there is substantial employment given there, more power. That is what we want.

However, I have never seen any statement by the Land Commission or by the Minister for Lands repudiating the allegations that have been made in this publication and there are serious allegations made in it. There is an allegation that a £10,000 job was costing, as it says here, £½ million—a job which could be undertaken by any commercial firm for around £10,000.

I trust that the Minister will, in the meantime, in the course of this debate, if he has not already seen this publication, get a copy and read this disclosure—that he will read "Rockingham—the lie dodger exercise," and "The Rape of Rockingham." The Minister's own name is not mentioned but the name of his illustrious predecessor, the present Minister for Justice, is there in capitals. It also gives the names of the high-ranking officers of the Department dealing with it. May I add that all of these officers are decent, honest, hard-working civil servants who are contributing generously to the public service of this country. This is a terrible disclosure.

: Does the Deputy feel justified in bringing up a matter like this concerning, as he says, "honest, decent, hard-working" men? Does he feel justified in bringing this up in relation to the civil servants——

: It is the Minister who is responsible. The Minister for Lands, even though new to his Ministry, should know that, whenever a charge is made, it is never made against the officers of his Department; it is always made against the Minister.

: The Minister fully accepts responsibility. I do not think that this book was fair in doing that.

: I am not going to quote. This article should have finished with putting the blame on the Minister's illustrious predecessor——

: The Deputy has charged the civil servants through this particular article.

: No. I have not.

: The Deputy is saying they were accused.

: The Deputy should have concerned himself simply with the Minister.

: What I am endeavouring to convey to the Minister is that in addition to the Minister for Lands being associated with this extraordinary conduct the names of the officers of the Minister's Department are given as well. That, I think, is wrong. I do not think it is right to mention these names.

: Who could know what names are mentioned except for the fact that the Deputy conveyed——

: The public know it.

: The public know it. Did I not get this and when I got it it went far and near. Anyone at all can buy a copy of this. These men are public servants doing their job and their duty and they must do what the Minister says. If the Minister instructed them to turn wild cat they must make an effort to please the Minister and attempt to turn wild cat. I do not think it is fair that these men's names should have been associated with this. For that reason I shall say nothing more about it, but I ask the Minister when he is concluding to make a statement in relation to this matter because a publication of this kind with the allegations contained therein is, in my opinion, causing suspicion and anxiety among certain people. It is well to clear the air, and let us have the whole history on what was spent at Rockingham in relation to the lands, forestry and buildings. Let us have the true facts and the true figures.

I am disappointed with the response to the relevant sections of the Land Act which enables elderly and disabled people to give up their lands. When the Bill was going through the Dáil, according to the Minister for Lands, the Land Commission was about to be inundated and flooded out with all the incapacitated landowners who would surrender their holdings to the Land Commission. In other words, the law as it stands is most disappointing and has not to any degree lived up to the prophecies of the Minister for Lands or, indeed, to his expectations.

I should like to refer to the sub-division section of the Land Commission. The sub-division section of the Land Commission has been reasonable in the case of houses being built on holdings for the purpose of giving a mortgage to some financial institution in connection with building on the site. They agree to sub-division, but I cannot understand the attitude of the Land Commission in certain cases where sub-division has been refused in relation to family settlements. There are a number of cases in the Land Commission at the moment where sub-division has been refused. Despite the fact that the owner of a holding, on the advice of his legal advisers and in accordance with his own commonsense as to how he should provide best for his family, bequeathed one section of his holding to his son A, another section of his holding to his son B and a third section of his holding to his daughter C. Whereupon he dies, and when the contents of the will were disclosed, A, B, and C each expected their portion of the land under the will. But they discovered that the Land Commission would not under any circumstances agree to the sub-division of the holding. In many cases on Land Commission files there is an endless amount of unfriendliness and unnecessary family spite and disputes because the Land Commission will not agree to sub-division where wills have been made and certain portions of land allocated to various members of the family.

The excuse given by the Land Commission is that if they agree to sub-division they are creating a smaller or uneconomic holding. I know of a case where a man, the owner of well over 100 acres of land, left 35 acres to one member of his family and the Land Commission would not under any circumstances agree to sub-division. Yet, you have people eking out a living on 18 to 30 acres. This was despite the fact that there was a new house built on the 35 acres. In my opinion, they had a right to sub-division and later on, if a portion of land came on the market and was purchased, it could be included in the land left in the will to the particular member of the family.

The sub-division section of the Land Commission should exercise a little more responsibility and have a little more understanding as to the feeling in the country on how wills and other legal documents relating to transfers and assignments are causing endless difficulties amongst members of families. The one thing we should all try to avoid is family disputes. God knows it is bad enough when neighbours fall out, but everyone knows that there are none more bitter than members of a family when they fall out. Many of us Members of this House have become involved in family disputes and in many instances to our regret. I would ask the Land Commission to review all these cases where as a result of wills the transfer of lands from one member of a family to another has been held up by the sub-division. Something should be done about it.

There is one other case to which I should like to direct the Minister's attention. The case shall be for certain reasons nameless. There is a fine type of young Irishman who was a miner here. He emigrated so that he could raise sufficient money to come back to Ireland and buy a good farm. He worked in the mines abroad as well as working in the mines at home. He earned sufficient money to enable him to buy a good farm and he arrived back in Ireland and made his purchase. No sooner had he made his purchase than he was told that it could not be approved, that the Land Commission were due to acquire the farm for division. It breaks my heart to see all the foreigners in this country with land especially when I see an Irishman denied land by the Land Commission because he was industrious enough to go to Canada or elsewhere and work hard enough to have enough money to buy it and then come home, get it and be threatened to have it taken from him by the Land Commission. I shall not make any further reference to this because I understand that the case is before the Land Courts at the moment and anything I might say might prejudice the case one way or the other but I think it is disgraceful that an Irishman cannot be welcomed back to his own country and be given a bit of encouragement and say: "More power, you were a great man to come back and buy it. We will give you a hand-out and help you to work it in any way we can." Instead of that they threaten him that the holding he bought is going to be taken from him.

I realise that our land policy code is governed and I hope always will be governed by the recognition of private ownership and free sale, fair rent and fixity of tenure. I hope that free sale and fixity of tenure will long reign in this country but it must be very disheartening for any Irishman, like the gentleman to whom I am referring, who loves his country, to come back and buy a farm in it and to see an Irish Government trying to drive him out of it and if he looks around at many farms not too far from the same area he will see people from the four corners of the world enjoying the fruits of Irish land, people who should never have been allowed to put a foot on Irish soil, people who may be exploiting Irish labour, making money out of the soil of Ireland. They are not here for the love of Ireland or for the love of our people. They are here to make what they can out of it and then when they have enough to fly out of it and never be heard of again.

I have no use for the foreigner on Irish soil because I am a solemn believer in the teachings of James Fintan Lalor—"The soil of Ireland for the people of Ireland to have and to hold from God alone who gave it." There are too many Irish people looking for a living on their own land without trying to cater for people who come from the four corners of the world. Last year I think it was 4,500 acres according to the Minister's statement that was sold to foreigners. This the Minister tells us was land that was of no use to anybody else, land that could not be sold. Is it not a wonder that the Forestry Department did not take it over if it was that bad? Would it not be better to have men employed in forestry, to have trees growing, to have activity in the area by the opening of a State forest rather than to have some foreigner living there who has no responsibility for or to this country? I hope that in the case where a foreigner buys useless land the Forestry Department will give a certificate that this land was so bad it was not fit for forestry. God knows I want to know what kind of land is unfit for forestry. I would allow no foreigner into land if it was suitable even for forestry purposes. I would prefer to see trees growing in it. I would prefer to see men working there at the thinning season, reclaiming it, draining it and opening a forestry centre no matter how small the forestry centre might be. I shall deal with that section of the Minister's statement in a few minutes. I hope and trust that if there is 4,500 acres of bad land next year to give to non-nationals that it will be examined first to see whether it is suitable even for forestry purposes.

: What about the Irish people scattered all over the world who buy land in other countries?

: They would be glad to come back.

: Do you think they should not get land elsewhere? Should we have that kind of policy? Should we permit it here seeing that there are many of our people in other countries? Are we to allow no one to come in here only all our people to go out?

: It is very seldom you will see the Irish buying land abroad if there is congestion in the country of their adoption.

: A number of Irish people have bought land in England.

: More power to them if they have. I am sure there was not the same congestion in the areas in which they bought the land as there seems to be in areas where foreigners have bought land here.

: This land is useless land, non-agricultural land.

: Deputy Flanagan.

: We should as far as possible try to utilise land in the interests of the Irish people even if it is for forestry purposes.

I would ask the Minister again, as I did last year, to realise, and I am sure the Land Commission do, that vendors always prefer cash to land bonds. He should have as many cash sales as possible.

I would ask the Land Commission to take steps to raise the housing loan of £500 to £1,000 in the case of a new house. The loan of £500 which is usually granted to supplement the grants is in my opinion insufficient in special circumstances. I feel that the maximum should be £1,000 and that according to the financial circumstances of the applicant it should be examined and if £750 or £800 was required to complete the erection of a house that the Land Commission should be at liberty to give it. I think that a ceiling of £500 in present circumstances is much too low and I would ask the Minister to seriously consider having it increased. The sum of £990,000 for Improvement of estates, et cetera is a rather modest sum and I hope that the Minister will be in a position to let us hear next year what that was spent on. I am also glad to know that the Minister has in mind comprehensive legislation which he proposes to introduce next year in connection with the preservation of game.

: That is coming for 40 years.

: It is long overdue. Perhaps the Minister will indicate whether it will be early next year or late next year because there are regional game councils and county committees of agriculture providing grants towards regional game councils and there is in the country a great awareness of the importance of the preservation of game apart from everything else as a genuine tourist attraction. It is amazing the interest that has been created in the preservation of game in recent years. I hope this legislation will be as comprehensive as possible and that the Minister will lose as little time as possible in introducing it. Perhaps there is no point at this stage in having a long drawn out debate on the necessity for game preservation. This will give us an opportunity of going more fully into the matter. It is true that many tourists who would normally come here to shoot and enjoy the sport associated with our game did not come due to foot and mouth regulations in Britain. Those people who are so extraordinarily fond of coming and who have spoken so highly of our game deserve our appreciation and thanks for sacrificing their visits here which are very welcome and we are very glad to see that they really had our interests at heart by participating in the drive against the foot and mouth disease.

I am deeply disappointed at the Land Commission report in general but I have a few observations to make now in relation to forestry. We seem to have no ambitious programme for forestry. By that I mean we have no real, long-term programme with certain areas already surveyed and other areas in prospect which over the next ten or 15 years would mean that new State forests would be opened up. Forestry provides national wealth and anyone interested in forestry knows it is a great source of national wealth and that in recent years there is greater interest in trees than formerly. In my opinion this is a big thing. I have been hoping that a suitable book would be made available to all schools giving pupils more information on trees, their importance, why they are necessary and considering if trees beautify the countryside, their effect on climate and the importance of forests and what can be made from trees. I have yet to see such an informative book or booklet available in any of our schools as a reference or help to the young people to direct their attention more seriously to trees.

This book should also contain details of the different types of trees and emphasise the need to create more love for trees and get people more forestry-minded and more civic-minded as regards plantations. This is very necessary. I am sure the Minister realises that John Mackay once said that our attitude towards forestry was a fair indication of our civilisation. How true that is. His writings in relation to forestry and plantations have been, are and always will be regarded as great contributions on this subject. He points out that our society and culture grew up in the shadow of the forests, and how true that is. We may read in our very early history that the country was once a huge forest but as time went on and invaders came they succeeded in destroying these forests. We can go back to that very nice Irish poem we all learned at school "Cad a dhéanfaimid feasta gan adhmad?" There is a great connection between the forests and our early culture. That is why I feel all our wasteland, bogland and cutaway bog, mountain slopes and hillsides should be surveyed with a view to having them planted.

The great Shannon valley should, I think, be planted along with numerous barren mountainsides incapable of reclamation. The beauty of plantations, in my opinion, is beyond the power of any of us to describe. There are some magnificent plantations in County Cork and wonderful plantations in Wicklow and there are some of the finest plantations in the country to be seen in my own constituency going across from Mountrath in Laois to the Kinnitty Mountains in Offaly, including the great forests of Mountrath and Clonaslee, Kinnitty, Durrow and Stradbally. Trees at a forestry centre can change the whole appearance of a locality. How lovely the country would look if all the barren hillsides and unproductive slopes and valleys were suitably planted and what a great change it would make! What a great change it would make also as regards employment. The numbers at present employed in forestry are far below what they should be. When we see the few thousand people who are engaged in forestry and consider the possibility of thousands more being employed we must ask ourselves if we are really serious in tackling the forestry problem. To have 4,500 employed in forestry when we should have at least 12,000 to 15,000 in my opinion discloses failure on the part of the Government to provide a positive forestry policy.

The Minister for Lands knows as well as anybody in the House that forestry has a great effect on our climate. Those who have studied the matter know that virgin grasslands will not absorb more than 25 per cent of the rainfall, that a tilled field will absorb 50 per cent and a forest will absorb 75 per cent. If there were more forests there would be less flooding and less dampness.

The time has come to set about cultivating the valleys and intensifying the afforestation of the thousands of acres of bogland. May I ask the Minister, did he ever address to his colleague, the Minister for Transport and Power, the question as to what is to become of the thousands of acres of cutaway bog that exist as a result of the activities of Bord na Móna? Have any experiments been carried out on any of the huge tracts of bogland on which there is not a bush, much less a tree? Is it that the Government do not want to finance forestry development for the reason that forestry development is slow to pay? Is not investment in afforestation a wonderful national investment? Such investment will not give a return this year or in 20 years but it is a good long-term investment. The Cumann na nGaedheal Government under Mr. Cosgrave was bitterly criticised many years ago for their investment in afforestation. It transpired that the timber that they were criticised for growing was described many years later by the master builders as the best timber obtainable for building and commercial purposes. There was an example of an investment being profitable eventually.

Millions of pounds should be invested in afforestation and we should not be afraid to make such investment which is sound from a national point of view. It is not productive in the short term but will repay a hundred-fold in the long term. The more money we invest in afforestation, the better. There is the employment content to be taken into consideration. Forestry centres have been set up and forestry stations have been established from which it would be very easy to branch out in a more courageous manner. There are wonderful possibilities in afforestation from the national point of view.

There was a Forestry Commission set up in 1907 by the British Government which reported that practically all the wastelands in this country were fit and suitable for afforestation. The Commission on Irish Forestry appointed by the Department of Agriculture in 1907—the last of many commissions which have inquired into the question and whose reports were alike —dealt with this point in the following words:

All the men of experience and expert knowledge are agreed that in soil and climate Ireland, for forestry purposes, is particularly well favoured. On the question of her capacity to grow timber as well as any other country in northern Europe there can be no doubt whatsoever.

I have often wondered if the Government were serious in their efforts to promote afforestation. In Sweden, Finland and Japan a vast amount of wealth has been created through plantations. The Japanese Government plant approximately 100,000 acres annually. Sweden and Finland have the greatest wealth of forests in Europe in proportion to their size. Supporting the idea that we can produce as good forests in this country as can be produced in Norway or Sweden is the fact that in Scandinavia it takes a spruce tree about 100 years to grow to maturity, whereas in Ireland it takes only 40 years owing to more favourable weather conditions. We have here more favourable weather conditions than obtain in Scandinavia and yet we appear to be lagging behind in this matter of afforestation.

I could never understand why the Government did not review the entire afforestation programme. We are engaged merely in patchwork year after year, adding a little here and there. Why not tackle the whole question of afforestation in a more definite and more serious manner? I wonder if the Minister has given enough encouragement to private planting? I do not think he has. There could be much more extensive private planting if more encouragement and better assistance were forthcoming.

I do not know if the Minister is aware of the existence in many countries of town-owned forests. Presumably, since becoming Minister for Lands, he has read everything obtainable in connection with lands and forestry. If he has not studied this matter of town-owned forests I would strongly advise him to consult the senior forestry officers of his Department who will be able to put him in direct contact with the very valuable literature which is available on this subject. What is a town-owned forest? This country may be too small to have town-owned forests but in Switzerland, Austria, Germany and Scandinavia, almost every community, including the smallest hamlet, has its own town forest, extending from a few hundred acres to a few thousand acres. They are of very great importance to municipal finance. One such town is Orson in Sweden. It has its town forest as a result of which the townspeople are free of rates due to the profits of the forest. Local transport is free. The telephone service is free and schooling costs and the public library are all paid for from the profits of the town forest. Is that not an ambitious forestry drive?

Did the Minister for Lands ever call together all the officers of his Department and say, in effect: "Look, we are not satisfied with the forestry progress. I shall make the money available. Present me with a scheme of greater development and expansion for forestry, right away."? Did the Minister ever consider helping or advising local authorities to establish their own forests? Did he ever consider that, where lands would be available in an area, the local authority could work in conjunction with the Forestry Department or the local authority could do it independently as in the case of town-owned forests in most European countries? Did he ever consider that local authorities could undertake an energetic forestry drive if given financial support and encouragement by the Government?

We cannot compare the United States with this country but, in the United States, there are town forests, which cover over three million acres, convenient to the various towns and the finances of the town forests go towards the running of the towns convenient to them. I am sure the Minister must be fully aware of all of these. The management and service are purely local. Employment is local and local wages are paid. The management and administration of the forest are all provided from the town convenient to the forest.

It may be said that Ireland is too small to lay down forests on the scale of those in the United States, Australia, Germany, Finland or Sweden but I do not think that that is true For a start, there is practically no big town in rural Ireland where, convenient to it, there are not at least ten or 15 acres of waste land that could be planted and put into use as a plantation. We all see the wonderful use the Germans made of every single acre of waste land in Germany. There is not one single acre of mountain-side, headland, hill or bogland in Germany that is not planted with some kind of suitable plantation by the Forestry Department there. It is well known that, according as the forestry expanded, there was less flooding in all of these areas and that the climate generally improved.

I should like to draw the attention of the Minister for Lands to a publication—I have already drawn his attention to Build—called Trees. In the winter edition, 1967, page 51, a very interesting letter appears I am sure the Minister has read it. This man writes to the editor of Trees and he says:

Dear Sir,

Having recently completed a 2,500 mile tour of Éire, and during which time I paid particular attention to the tree cover, I have no hesitation in placing on record the unbelievable havoc being wrought by ivy amongst Éire's trees. I use the word "unbelievable" because I doubt if the Irish people really appreciate the danger in what is happening. So if there be readers with influence in that country perhaps they will act.

I have noted severe infestations of ivy in Wales, in West, South-west and Southern England, yet these are nothing as compared to the suffocation, strangulation and final annihilation to be seen in Éire. Undoubtedly, as in most countries, the Forestry Department guards its own funeral-looking stands of "conifers only" planted for the most part on ploughed and drained bog land; but broad-leafed trees may well in time disappear from the Éire scene. No climate could be more favourable to ivy; it is obviously the country's main crop and so more is the pity that it cannot prove a source of revenue. Famine is a dirty word in Éire, but it could become highly respectable in the case of ivy. Even the telegraph poles act as hosts to this insidious and ruthless lodger.

Maybe the Irish people are not tree conscious nor sympathetic towards tree welfare; it is certainly the case in regard to hedgerow trees and shelter belts which seem favourite targets for the axe. Unnatural perhaps for a people with a Druidical past. The Government's all-absorbing anxiety to enhance the tourist trade gives rise to grandiose road development and so filches from the country many thousands of its most beautiful and essential trees. A sad state of affairs in a land which even 200 years ago possessed such luxurious tree cover.

So vast is the menace of ivy that a campaign against it in Éire would entail a war of attrition, and this could only be waged as a major operation under the control of the State. Nevertheless, there always remains a great deal which private land-owners can do to keep down and check the ivy pest. In order to present some idea of the magnitude of this vicious scourge I send some photographs of infested road-side trees typical of the general Éire scene.

He goes on to make reference to Blarney Castle in County Cork and what he has to say is most complimentary. The writer is A. G. Neish, 31 Manor House, Marylebone Road, London N.W.1.

It is only when one reads this letter that one realises the vast amount of ivy that is surrounding most of the beautiful trees of this country. This man is critical of the situation that so many of our trees are surrounded and hidden away by ivy. I do not know the views of the experts on this. They may say that it is very necessary, that it adds to the beauty of the tree. I do not think so. I think the tree would look much better without ivy. In this booklet, a number of trees are to be seen which this gentleman photographed and we can note that they are covered with ivy. The Minister might tell us whether it is desirable to have so many of our trees completely covered in ivy. I cannot say if ivy does any harm to trees, but if it does perhaps the Minister will let us know. He might be in a position to pass on some of his expert knowledge to the House as a guide in that matter.

Great progress has been made abroad in industries based on the by-products of timber. What is the position here? When will we hear more about the long-awaited development in relation to wood pulp? Abroad many industries were set up based on the by-products of timber. A kind of plastic, and artificial silk, can be manufactured as by-products of timber. Certain types of alcohol can be made available as by-products of timber. Apart from its use for construction and commercial purposes, there are numerous other industries based on a proper source and sufficient supply of timber. In Germany, Finland and Sweden the number who have been employed in those industries is amazing. Italy was deprived of its forests for many years, but now there has been a reawakening in Italy and a general development in relation to the acreage which has been planted even since the war.

The marketing and development of our timber also needs reorganisation. Our timber compares favourably with any other timber in the world. It is unfortunate that many of us are inclined to criticise what we produce. The Irish appear to be an extraordinary race. We seem to suffer from an inferiority complex about what we do ourselves, or what we produce. I venture to say that the master builders, when they made their comment on our commercial timber some time ago, made it as a statement of fact. They said our timber is as good as any other timber in the world. We should always bear that in mind.

I am not at all satisfied with the number employed in our forests. It is disgracefully low. We should be capable of employing at least five times as many as we do, particularly in areas where there is no other source of employment. I am very grateful to have the honour to represent a constituency with such a great forestry record, but nevertheless I think that forestry development could be considerably intensified in that area. There are parts of the west, the midlands and the south in which employment in forestry could be trebled.

Grants for private forestry should be tackled in a more courageous way. Grants were applied for in 615 cases during the financial year under review, but 615 cases of private planting is not a very good record. Something should be done to encourage more private planting. Between private planting and State planting in Finland they can send their finished wood products all over the world practically. That is why we should examine the position in regard to the by-products we will be able to manufacture, our wood-pulp industry, and also what large-scale development should take place.

It is correct to say that we cannot grow mahogany or teak, but we have a very good record in so far as lumber forests and chemical forests are concerned. We should make a closer examination of our chemical forests and we should invest in their development. While there may not be any immediate benefit in our day, at least our children and our children's children will benefit. Perhaps, like Finland, of which we have grown envious for exporting its finished wood products all over the world, we could compete if we had a sane Minister for Lands with a courageous policy for afforestation based on expansion, commonsense, intelligence, and taking into consideration the provision of employment.

I would ask the Minister when replying to say if he has ever thought of the establishment of town-owned forests. Are there pockets in the country in which town-owned forests could be established? As I said, in Orson they are able to give free telephones, free education and a free library service, because the local town forest pays.

While I wish the Minister well in his Department, I think his reign will be reasonably short because of circumstances over which he will have no control. The Minister is noted for his courtesy—more noted for his courtesy than his predecessor. Now that courtesy must play a very important part in the lives of all our Ministers I hope that the Minister will display a high degree of courtesy to those who seek his assistance by way of deputation or interview.

If we are to embark on forestry development there is a great need to get our young people to respect and appreciate and love trees. It strikes me that I read a lovely little verse recently, and it might be an appropriate conclusion to my speech if I were to quote it. It is: The Prayer of the Tree. I think it should be in every schoolroom. It should be framed at the expense of the Forestry Division and presented to every school so as to focus attention on the love for and the importance of trees:

THE PRAYER OF THE TREE

You who pass by and would raise your hand against me, hearken ere you harm me,

I am the heat of your hearth on the cold winter night, the friendly shade screening you from the summer sun,

And my fruits are refreshing draughts quenching your thirst as you journey on.

I am the beam that holds your house, the board of your table, the bed on which you lie, the timber that builds your boat.

I am the handle of your hoe, the door of your homestead, the wood of your cradle, the shell of your last resting place.

I am the bread of kindness and the flower of beauty.

You who pass by, listen to my prayer: Harm me not!

I think that is a most beautiful poem. It is not so much the words as the sentiments it conveys from the tree. I do think the Forestry Division would be very well advised to reawaken a love for trees. It must start with the children and the young people. It may take years but it is well worth the effort.

: I should like to congratulate Deputy Faulkner, the Minister for Lands, on his appointment and on the presentation of his first Estimate in the House. I am pleased to note that he is looking very well. He does not seem to have any scars as a result of the recent battle that he and the other members of the Government engaged in, and I am pleased that that is the position in his case.

Mention of the referendum has brought to my mind the fact that on last Wednesday the Irish people made it quite clear that they were not going to give autocratic powers to any group of people, and I think that has a bearing on this Estimate as presented to us here today.

While wishing Deputy Faulkner well as Minister for Lands, I had hoped that, by virtue of his being a young and virile Minister, a Minister different in many ways from his predecessor, there would be something new in this Estimate before us today, that there would be something new in presentation, some new thoughts in the Minister's mind that he would have embodied in his Estimate statement. It is sad, indeed, to find that that is not the position. There is nothing new either in content or in presentation and the Estimate, to a large extent, like many other Estimates brought before this House, is a rehash of what we had here twelve months ago.

The Land Commission is a State body. It is deemed to be an autonomous body set up by legislation enacted in this House, and it is working behind closely knit curtains. The only thing we hear about it is what the Minister tells us here annually when the curtains are drawn slightly aside and the Minister, in the role of public relations officer, gives us a broad outline of what the Land Commission is doing, but only a very broad outline.

That is no longer the right thing to do in 1968. The people must pull these curtains aside. They must look behind and see what is happening, see how their £3,900,000-odd that the House is passing here today is expended and get much more detailed information than we are getting from the skimpy statement written up here for us by the senior officers of the Department.

I have again and again mentioned in this House the need for a closer assessment of the work of all these State-sponsored bodies, and I regard the Land Commission as a State-sponsored body. We have several of them employing many people, utilising a great deal of public funds, while we as the people's representatives are not in a position to judge, in view of the limited information available to us, whether they are doing their job correctly or otherwise or whether they are giving good value for the money passed by this House towards their administration. We do not know whether that money is usefully and gainfully employed. What I want to see and what I would hope to see in future Estimates so far as these autonomous bodies are concerned is that the people's representatives, the Members of this Assembly, and, through us, the general public would get much more detailed information as to how all these bodies, that are so well sheltered up to the present in regard to their work, are contributing towards the advancement of the State.

I mentioned here 12 months ago— and it was mentioned at the outset of the Minister's statement and also in the very long statement we had from Deputy Flanagan—the question of the insufficiency of staff attached to the Land Commission. I do not want to go over what I said here 12 months ago, but I did expect that we would get some more enlightenment on this Estimate having mentioned the matter last year, but the position remains somewhat the same.

The position is that we have 1,023 of a staff attached to the Land Commission. In view of the information available to us we do not know whether that staff is sufficient or not, but in any case the cost of the staff is in or around 33 per cent of the total Estimate; certainly it is something more than 30 per cent. We have here, as I say, a skimpy account of the Land Commission's activities. I know some of the staff attached to the Land Commission, and I know that they are diligent, active workers, but it is beyond my comprehension—and I would be dishonest if I were to say otherwise—how such a staff is required for the Land Commission. We have in the Commissioner's office and the secretariat a staff of 103; in the accountant's branch, 597; in the collection branch, 154, and so on and so forth.

Money is scarce in this country. I listened to the lengthy statement of Deputy Flanagan, some of which was unrealistic, because we have not got that type of money to implement all these schemes as outlined by him. Our job as public representatives in this House is to see that funds approved by this House and collected then from the people are utilised to the best advantage. I am specifically referring to the Land Commission here; I will be referring to the ESB, CIE and the other bodies later on when the different Estimates come up.

I am of opinion—and I state this here as forcibly and as vehemently as I can—that we must have a committee of this House set up to poke and pry into the work of these State-sponsored bodies to know whether they are doing it efficiently or otherwise. In making that statement I am not in any way reflecting on such bodies, because our information is too limited to assess whether or not we are getting a return for the money we pass here towards their administration. I hope, whether this Government or some other Government do it, that the day is not too far distant when such committees of the House will be established to give us the information. There is no room for this bureaucracy. We are the people's representatives and if we look for information from the Land Commission as people elected to this House, each one of us representing some thousands of people, we should get it. Because of our position we are entitled to get it and not just because of the graciousness on the part of some official. I do not see why Members of this House should have to beg for information which they should get automatically. That day should be ended and this sort of bureaucracy should be abolished and public representatives here should get the respect due to them and get what they are entitled to.

I am tired of this sort of attitude on the part of some senior people attached to some of our Departments that when a Deputy seeks information he is put off with the excuse that the information is confidential, that only people with integrity, people who can deal with confidential matters should keep this information to themselves. Some matters, of course, must be confidential but this attitude is prevalent. What right have public servants to deal with public representatives in that fashion? It is about time that system was abolished and we changed to democracy. I referred to the referendum the other day when the Government in their arrogance were trying to set up a kind of dictatorship and they got their answer from the people. The people want democracy and they showed that on Wednesday last. I am of the opinion that some of these highly paid officials who work behind closed doors and who are very slow to pass on information to public representatives must be taught a lesson and the system must be changed.

: Did the Minister not go behind the door once?

: The Minister has not answered many questions in this House but I am sure he will be different from his predecessor. Everybody knows the difficulty of getting information from the Minister for Lands by way of Parliamentary question. There is a system of hedging so far as the acquisition of land is concerned or its division and you are not told anything until everything is over. This all happens behind closed doors. The Commissioners are sacred people, they make their decisions and are not obliged to accept recommendations. They are above influence and like Caesar's wife they are above reproach. These decisions are made and cannot be nullified by this House. The proceedings in the courts are public but so far as the Land Commission's division of farms and other incidental works are concerned it is all done behind closed doors. They never have to answer to a committee of this House or to anyone else. We must change all that and elected representatives here must get much more detail about what is happening. We must be allowed examine papers and documents so that we can see how a decision was arrived at, see why a farm was divided in such a way, see whether some other applicants did not get justice or fair play. At present we are unable to answer such questions when our constituents ask them. If it is said here that they are acting within their rights and in accordance with legislation, then I say that the time has come to change the legislation.

I am asking the Minister whether he thinks that he should make a move to change the system. Does he think it unfair to keep Deputies in the dark in regard to matters affecting their constituents? Does he think that all the information should be kept in the hands of senior officials or possibly given only to a few chosen Members of this House? It is only right that a TD should have reasonable access to information which is essential to deal adequately with representations made by his constituents. I am completely against the repetition of speeches here year after year. Similar speeches are made here every year and then they are forgotten for another 12 months. This is the only occasion each year that we have for addressing ourselves seriously to this question. I am endeavouring to change the format of our Estimates debates, particularly in regard to the Estimate for the Department of Lands. The Minister's opening speech, the contributions by Members and the Minister's reply are all forgotten after a while.

I am not in a position to deal with this Estimate as I should like to deal with it because there is not sufficient information in the Minister's speech to enable me to do so. The Minister stated that he required an assistant secretary and other extra appointments including a principal officer, an assistant principal officer and so on, but I have not got enough information at my disposal to say whether such appointments were justified. I am doubtful if they were. Certainly from my assessment of this document I am rather doubtful. There is an old saying that justice must not only be done but must be seen to be done. I want to repeat that my statements are not to be taken as reflecting on the Commissioners. I am not in a position to say whether their judgment is soundly based or not because we get no information which is confidential. You only hear their decisions when you meet people and not from the Department. You are told that so-and-so's lands were divided in such a way. Deputies are entitled to be told why John O'Sullivan got five acres and Thomas Murphy got 10 acres and Pádraig Faulkner got 10 acres. It is not unusual for judges to give reasons for reaching a particular decision but we never hear the Land Commissioners making a statement about why they reached a particular decision. We just hear a bald statement and no more. It would be to the advantage of everybody, to the Commissioners themselves and to the personnel in the Department, if we had a change from this system and if, first of all, more information was made available and, secondly, if Deputies had more access to essential information to find out whether or not constituents who made representations to them were dealt with fairly.

All we, as public representatives, look for when we make representations on behalf of our constituents is justice for those constituents. We do not want anything for anyone to which he or she is not legally entitled. Justice is all we want, but some people do not get justice. There are certain sections of our community getting preferential treatment. There is favouritism. Ministers have stated that, all things being equal, their own will be favoured before others. Who are they to judge whether or not all things are equal? This is political favouritism. The fact that a man supports one political Party as against another should not preclude him from entitlement to a parcel of land, or anything else. Under Fianna Fáil and under some of the people in Fianna Fáil political affiliations are taken into account. We are opposed to that. Every citizen is entitled to his political opinions and political opinions should not enter into the meting out of justice.

We are aware that shady things happen. We heard a great deal about that at the Church gates during the referendum. A particular association was mentioned several times at Question Time today. I refer to the association known as Taca. Is it not quite clear that those who subscribe the fee demanded by this association expect to get far more than the worth of their actual contribution? The Taoiseach was at the Taca dinner in Cork last Sunday night. With the existence of such bodies, working hand in glove with the Government, there is a danger of corruption and the people will have to be safeguarded in the future much more than heretofore. So much for that.

I am in favour of a much more open assessment of the activities of the Land Commission and of State-sponsored bodies. I make no reflection on the personnel in that Department or in the State-sponsored bodies. I reflect on a system which allows the personnel to act as they do. This is the place in which to change the system and it is our job to ensure that the system is changed and replaced by a system which is both adequate and fair. I think the day is not too far distant, either under Fianna Fáil or under an alternative Government, when action along the lines I suggest will have to be taken. The people will no longer be satisfied with these skimpy reports issued by these autonomous State bodies. I include the Land Commission in that particular category.

A scheme was introduced for the acquisition of land for redistribution from the elderly and incapacitated. The Minister at the time, Deputy Moran, held a press conference and told that conference that this was his solution to the problem of congestion. There was another scheme whereby progressive farmers could avail of loans from the Land Commission of up to three times the price of their own holdings, loans which could be paid back at their leisure over a period of years, to enable them to purchase land. Both schemes have been in operation for some time and the numbers who have availed of them are negligible.

Some of us are well acquainted with Irish life. I have a better knowledge of Irish life than has the Minister, Deputy Moran, who initiated these schemes. We are, I think, in closer touch with the people. The scheme for acquiring land from the elderly and incapacitated made scarcely any impact. Everyone knows that, where an incapacitated person owns land, there is always a relative waiting to take over that land. That is the pattern in Cork. I am sure it is the pattern in Louth, Mayo and elsewhere throughout the country. The number, therefore, who will avail of the annuity scheme is bound to be very small. The scheme is bound to make very little impact. I think the actual number who availed of the scheme was less than 2,000.

Mention has been made of loans for farmers: "We will give you a loan and you go out and buy land." Deputy Corry comes from one of the richest agricultural districts in the country. How much land is available in East Cork and how much land is available for sale in North-East Cork? The same question would apply to Limerick, Tipperary and other agricultural counties. That type of land is available only in a very limited way, as I mentioned here a few years ago. If 150 young farmers were given 150 loans by the Land Commission and were let loose on the country to buy farms, where are the farms which they could buy?

We know from press reports and advertisements that the number of farms selling in this country is low, and if you had these people competing against each other for the small number of holdings available, naturally prices would be inflated. To my mind, that scheme will not make a big impact as far as the relief of congestion is concerned. The number of people who have benefited from the scheme does not exceed 50. That number is exceptionally small in relation to the number of congests in the country.

I appreciate that the Land Commission have a tough job on their hands. I did not agree with the previous speaker, Deputy Flanagan, when he said: "Go on and give the farmers' sons land, give the small farmers land." One would think there are thousands and thousands of acres of land in the country to be taken over and handed to small farmers and to farmers' sons. The position as I see it, and I have travelled as much in this country as the next one, is that the land on offer is scarce and that the quantity of suitable land on offer is exceptionally scarce, though, on the other hand, the demand for suitable land by congested holders increases from day to day. The number of small farmers who are deemed to be living in congested holdings in South-West Cork, the constituency I represent, who would avail of larger holdings if they were available would be not less than 400 to 500. All the Deputies from West Cork have made repeated representations with a view to getting the Land Commission to accept applications from these people for an exchange of holdings. It is not likely that many such applications will be satisfied.

How, then, does one go about providing what Deputy Micheál Ó Móráin used to call a viable—that was a nice word of his—holding? He used to tell us when he was Minister for Lands that to provide a viable, economic holding, you must provide a farmer, first of all, with 40 to 45 acres of good land or its equivalent. In these terms, you would need between 300 and 400 acres per holding in the 12 western counties before you would have the equivalent of 40 to 45 acres of good land, and I am not referring to mountainy districts.

Neither the Minister for Lands nor the Land Commission can wave a magic wand over bad land and turn it into good land. They cannot turn mountains, hills and rocks into fertile, productive land. It is exceptionally difficult to turn waterlogged land into productive land. It cannot be done without a great deal of expenditure. The question remains, and let us be honest and face it, that the only way to provide 40 to 45 acres of good land or its equivalent for farmers in congested districts is by reducing the number of holdings. That is one way, but what do you do with the people you take away when you have not anything for them in other parts of the country? That at least appears to be the position in West Cork to which I referred earlier. There is only a limited number of holdings in the midlands or in areas where land is much more fertile than in the 12 western counties.

That brings me to another point. One of the main functions of the Land Commission, as I understand their functions, is to keep people in rural Ireland: their main function is to preserve rural Ireland, to preserve life there. Therefore, their job should extend far beyond land division, land acquisition and the building up of holdings. As far as the 12 western counties are concerned, because of the indifferent nature of the land and its low productivity, you must have there some industry ancillary to agriculture. We could say: "We will provide you with a holding that will enable you to derive your livelihood mainly from agriculture", but in these counties, except in the case of a small number of farmers, we could not say: "Here is a farm on which you can derive your livelihood solely from agriculture."

We have learned, particularly since we became in some way associated with the EEC, that we must provide some other industries in rural Ireland and I believe the Government are failing in that direction, and failing badly, because mainly the money allocated to the Land Commission for congests is expended with the idea of keeping our people in rural Ireland. The Land Commission deal with only one aspect of Irish life—farming and agricultural development. I suggest that they must expand and take the initiative in providing industries in rural Ireland to help the small farmers who cannot get additional land, particularly young, active, married farmers, with supplementary incomes from ancillary industries.

There is a prospect for such action embodied in the Minister's statement in relation to forestry products. We have in Ireland so many tons of matured timber every year available to us. Now, in south-west Cork we have the town of Macroom in the centre of a forestry area. There is there an active development committee who met the Minister for Industry and Commerce with a view to establishing a timber industry in Macroom, the centre of the West Cork, mid-Cork and South Kerry forestry area. We have heard very little about it since then.

These are matters that the Minister for Lands should address himself to in association with the Minister for Industry and Commerce. When we produce something in any part of the west of Ireland—in West Cork and South Kerry we produce timber—the product should be processed locally instead of taking it away to another part of the country where industrial development is far more advanced in other fields, and thereby depriving the congested districts of the benefits of employment so badly needed in these districts.

Therefore, on the score of improving the living standards of the people in the congested districts, I am putting it to the Minister that he should not devote his time solely to the Land Commission, that there should be a change in that system where they only cater for land division and land acquisition and do not deal with any other aspects of rural life. I maintain— and I do not want to repeat myself— that you will have in rural Ireland, side by side with agricultural development, development of other industries if we are going to keep the people in rural Ireland and ensure that they and their families will have a reasonable life if they stay in rural Ireland. I claim that the Land Commission activities should extend beyond the land question.

Now, Sir, we are told on page 13 that 1,638 allottees got land last year to the extent of 30,253 acres. The amount of land they got varied very much from person to person and from district to district. There is nothing in the statement to say what amount of land there is for acquisition and division. I do not say Deputy Flanagan's statement was unrealistic. I got the impression he knew of a great deal of land that could be taken over by the Land Commission. I am not aware of big pockets or big estates of land. Probably they exist in the midlands but I am not too sure on the score that there is much land available for the Land Commission to take over.

I spoke of land not being worked. Probably at the present time there may be land derelict, land that the 1965 Act would apply to and where the Land Commission could take it over by compulsory measures. Could the Minister indicate what is the extent of that land? Have the Land Commission officials made any reasonable survey as to the number of acres of fertile land, the number of adjusted acres of land available in the non-congested areas for the congested holders or even for people living in non-congested areas themselves? There are probably many small farmers in congested areas who would like extra land.

That reminds me of Deputy Fanagan's request to consider as favourably as possible the cottiers. At the present time it is tremendously difficult for a cottier to get any land from the Land Commission and heretofore, I think you could say in the distant past, I understood a cottier within half a mile of a holding under division could get up to five acres of land. I think that rule, while it was not abolished, was not put into practice. I think the smaller cottier is entitled to get some piece of land if there is a division in the neighbourhood to enable him to provide potatoes and to keep a cow and so on.

We would be able to deal with this question in a broader way if we had an idea of how much land and the acreage of that land available in the non-congested districts, and also the acreage of land available in the congested districts. I know south-west Cork which is a rather expansive territory reasonably well and the acreage of land there for Land Commission purposes is not that great. Probably the total acreage available would not satisfy 20 holders. It is the exception rather than the rule to get a derelict holding nowadays. Unfortunately, some derelict holdings did exist in West Cork where people, by force of economic circumstances, had to leave and move over to England to try to earn some money in order to build their homes and return home, but you would not call them derelict holdings. They are not available to the Land Commission for disposal. The owners expect to return home after a short time.

Now, Sir, mention has been made of development in pilot areas in some part of this paper. I cannot readily lay my hands on it. In any case, I know the pilot area in south-west Cork and I must say that the Land Commission is doing a good job there. They are very active and have assessed the farmers living within the confines of the area and I am quite satisfied that a good job is being done there. The limitation is the availability of land. I do not want to labour that question beyond what I have already mentioned. Surely it is within the Minister's competence to give us in round figures an idea of the acreage available for Land Commission purposes and possibly, better still, the area of non-adjusted acres. We are told there are 50,000 acres in hand. It might take five such acres to make an adjusted acre, an acre of what would be the equivalent of good land, but in any case taking into account the large number anxious to avail of the schemes of the Land Commission, I believe the poorest farmers could be helped.

I have no doubt that many of the acres referred to by Deputy Flanagan in reference to the activities of the Department of Lands could be availed of. I am well aware that there is a limitation on the funds available and that the Department of Lands must make do with a fixed sum of money for the year and, taking into account the percentage of money for administration, I can see their difficulty in extending their activities.

So much for the Land Commission, Sir. I hope we will have a change next year in the presentation of the Land Commission activities and that some move will be made during the current year to change the system which enables such people to work behind closed doors and that we, as Deputies, will be able to pry a little more into their activities, not to satisfy our curiosity but to satisfy the curiosity of the general public and of the people who pay the piper—the taxpayers of this country.

So far as the second Estimate is concerned the news is not so bright. We learn that more forestry workers are to become redundant. Is that not a poor position in 1968? I expected that the Minister would have now something to say in this Estimate on this long outstanding question of forestry workers, that is, their entitlement to pension rights on a similar basis, say, as local authority employees. Instead of any heartening news on that question having regard to what is happening other types of workers in somewhat similar employment, and this question is so important in so far as such local authorities are concerned, we are told here in this paper that some of them must be laid off now.

The Minister gives a reason for this. He does not say it is money which is the problem. Possibly they have not got the money. Suitable land is available and has been offered to the Department —land suitable for afforestation—but you people are hedging in the purchase of that land by offering outrageously low prices. No doubt in West Cork you have bought land at low prices and the unfortunate position was that some of these people who sold that land had to do so because of pressure of financial circumstances.

At the same time, I am not finding fault with the Department for buying land at the best prices possible. I suppose the Department is entitled to a bit of horse trading. I should like some elaboration on a statement here which is relevant to redundancy:

Nonetheless I am anxious to do whatever is possible to avoid redundancies and I have asked the staff of the Forestry Division to make every effort to find ways and means of easing such problems.

I should like to know from the Minister if, as happened in the Macroom side last year when three longstanding workers were told there was no further employment for them, this happened again in West Cork, in Louth, or in any other county in the country what redress, if any, is there for such workers? They are told by the forester that there is no more employment for them. I think we should question that. There should be no redundancy among our already relatively small staff in the forestry divisions.

I should like to stress again, when dealing with forestry, incidental to the discussion on it, the right of establishing industries based on our timber and our timber products in the areas where the timber is grown. There is nothing about this. When we produce a product we expect to have the right of processing that product. I am putting this to the Minister as forcibly as I can. The Macroom Development Association are endeavouring and are going to great extremes to establish a factory for the processing of timber in that town.

I shall conclude by expressing regret that I have to be rather critical of some of the activities of our Land Commission and of the Department of Lands. It is a much easier task for any Member of this House to stand up here and to have something pleasant to say and instead of offering criticism to offer praise. However, our job binds us to give a factual appraisal of the position as we see it. That is our job and as long as we remain Members of this House — I believe in praising where praise is necessary and justified and in criticising where criticism is necessary.

Deputy Faulkner is a Minister with some drive. I have known him for a long time and I know he is a man who is anxious to do good and that he was also an excellent Deputy. I have no doubt that he will make every move he can to be an excellent Minister and I wish him well in that respect. Deputy Faulkner has a first class reputation as a Member of this House for honesty and integrity which are two essentials for any man holding a Cabinet post. I am reminding him that there is an obligation on him to change this system. He knows the position with regard to Deputies looking for information. He was a Deputy for a long time himself before he was elevated to his present rank. I am asking him in all sincerity to do away with the bureaucracy that exists in so far as forestry is concerned and to ensure that Deputies will have more access to reasonable information from the Land Commission than has been the position heretofore.

: Having heard the two aspiring Ministers for Lands, very much in the shadow yet despite Deputy Flanagan's statement, I should like to assure Deputy Flanagan that the sooner he forgets this idea he has of coming in here year after year, election after election, quite satisfied to sit there and bark at everyone who does anything, the better. I was 41 years in this House last June and five of those years were spent with a Fine Gael Government and it is 36 years ago since I saw that the people were foolish enough at that time to elect a Fine Gael Government. I think the second election, the one in 1927 was the last time that a Fine Gael Government was elected in this country. The other two occasions that any team was got together here of that description it was a Fine Gael, Labour, Clann na Poblachta, Clann na Talmhan—God knows how many more Clanns, a gathering of the Clanns anyway—they had a sufficient majority to hold for five years. They held for three years. They came back again a few years afterwards and we had a repetition of the same position. There is not a Deputy sitting on those benches over there who was in this House whilst the Fine Gael Government were operating, not one. I never saw Fine Gael Government in operation. My Party did and the people did and the people have the dickens of a long memory—for 36 years.

Deputy M.P. Murphy complained here about government by bureaucrats and he said it would have to be remedied. Is he aware that when the power was taken out of the hands of the Minister for Lands it was taken out of the hands of that mixum-gatherum Government he is talking about?

: That is false like most of what the Deputy is saying.

: I challenge Deputy Murphy to go back on the records of the House and find out. He comes along and as is usual he does not know how much land is available in his area. He said there might be enough to make 20 farms. I remember away back going down to Dunmanway at an election to replace the late Deputy Murphy, God rest his soul. A man who had tragically died had 650 acres of land and I do not know what the Deputies of Cork have been doing since that time because that 650 acres has not been touched since.

: It is not on public view.

: I am talking about land that is available for division in your constituency. About 18 months ago I had to raise another point here with the Minister for Lands in connection with 800 acres in Deputy Murphy's constituency.

: Wrong again. Deputy Corry cannot tell the truth.

: I refer to the Stanley estate.

: The Stanley estate is in mid-Cork.

: They are juggling again. It might go back to you. There are 800 acres of good land there, tip-top land, and I suggest that it be taken over by the Land Commission, as I suggested 12 months ago that that 800 acres be taken over by the Land Commission and reserved for the west Cork farmers for division amongst them. If Deputy Murphy did a bit of simple work he would have a better constituency and be happier there.

There were a few remarks made here about the Minister for Lands, Deputy Moran, now Minister for Justice, and I want here and now to contradict them. He was one of the best Ministers for Lands I have met and I have met many in my time. He got rid of the idea we all had that you talk about a farm to be divided by the Land Commission. I had occasion, in the yoke of a constituency that was handed over to me in 1961, to deal with a lot of people there who are in a far worse position in so far as holdings of land are concerned than those in the west about which we hear all the talk. That is the land between Kanturk and the Limerick/Kerry boundary— Rockchapel. One Friday when I went home a message awaited me asking me if I could see the farmers in that constituency urgently. Unfortunately I could not get out until Monday night. When I went out there they informed me that a farm of 90 acres, at a place called Island, was being sold by public auction on the following Thursday, that several attempts had been made to get the Land Commission to purchase it. The lady who owned it was willing to sell to the Land Commission for cash but they said they could only buy for Land Bonds because there would be no migration on the holdings. It was dark and I went out and examined that holding in the lights of the car. I travelled around and examined the holdings of the seven applicants also and I satisfied myself that there would have to be migration from the holdings.

That was on Monday night and the farm was for auction on Thursday. The following morning I came in to the Land Commission in Cork who informed me they could do nothing. I got in touch with the Minister's office in Dublin and was informed that I would have a letter the following morning about it. I explained that there would have to be migration on the holdings, from what I saw. The following morning I went to the post office. My letters do not come early and I got my letter, very faithfully written, at 7 o'clock. The Minister stated that he regretted that nothing could be done. I caught the 8 o'clock train out of the junction and the 9 o'clock train out of Cork and I landed in to the Minister's office at 12.15. The Minister met me in a friendly way and asked me why did I bother coming, that he had written to me, and that he explained the matter in the letter. I said that he had explained something that was not correct or true. He said: "Could you prove that to the satisfaction of the Chief 10461 Commissioner?" I said: "Bring the joker along." He was brought along and the poor man, having spent a lifetime there, had a very foolish idea about migration. I took the map and showed him the farm and the holdings of the people who had to be moved in. There was one man with 18 acres, one with 11 acres, one with 14 acres, and so on. I asked him what he was going to do about those. Two of them were three-quarters of a mile away from the holding and he said he would move those in. I asked him whether he was sure. He said he would do this and take over their holdings. I said to the Minister that that is migration. He said: "Whoever heard of migration from one farm to another in the same townland?" I said: "You have nothing to do but sit down and study Land Acts; I have other things to do but I do know land law and would you show me the section of the Land Act stating how far a man should be from a holding to be termed a migrant?" It is the only section in any Land Act dealing with migration. That section states: "A migrant is a man whose holding is taken over for the relief of congestion." The Minister phoned the Department in Cork and ordered them to purchase that farm the following day, which was Thursday. That would be about September and that farm was divided up among the applicants by Christmas. Let anyone who would talk about Ministers beat that performance.

One of the promises made here wheu we were defining "congested areas" was that, if we found any pockets in which there was congestion, those pockets would from time to time be included. I happened, Sir, to go down to a part of my constituency called Ballymacoda. I induced the Land Commission to buy one farm of 97 acres there to be divided among uneconomic holders. When they went to divide it they found that, with the number of uneconomic holdings there were, they could only give about two acres to each. In a period of three years we had, by coaxing people out of big farms they had there and otherwise, acquired 300 acres of land. According to the law as it stands the uneconomic holder has to pay about £9 an acre for the land. If I take that £9 and I turn over there to my friend Oliver and examine all the things Oliver was going to do—I made out here roughly all the proposals, the draining, the loan from the Agricultural Credit Corporation, the house— I made up the whole lot, Sir, and if that unfortunate devil got 40 acres of land under Deputy Oliver Flanagan as Minister for Lands tomorrow, he would only have to pay £693 a year and then he could get a bit for himself and his wife and family. Where is the use? I know very well it is quite easy for Deputy Oliver Flanagan to get up here and indulge in this kind of foolish talk. Deputy Murphy reprimanded him for it a while ago. I would like to say he should have some sense of responsibility anyway. The idea that any poor devil getting 40 acres of land in this country today could pay £690 a year for it——

: Go and make it up yourself. I made up all the things that that man would have to get and, mark you, under our Land Acts all these things have to be paid for not by the Land Commission but by the tenant. Make them up. You are not dealing with congested areas; you are dealing with the whole country. Make them up. It is £693 a year.

: Not at all.

: A 40-acre farmer would have to pay £693 and God knows you have them outside the gate having to pay about £50 a year and they cannot pay it. This kind of stuff is all right for a lad who will sit down there quite happy and satisfied to be in opposition and to get up here once a year and cry about the plight of the small farmer and promise everyone everything. But Deputy Oliver Flanagan knows and I know that, if you were to put all the uneconomic holders in this country into economic holdings, you would not have any farmer left with more than 100 acres. The Deputy knows that as well as I do. I have no time for the fellow who is out wailing and shouting about the small farmer with his eye across the ditch to know when is the bastard going to get broke and move out. That is all that troubles most of them. Get down and examine this thing. He comes along and says every young man should get a farm of land. If all the young men are to get farms of land what is going to be an economic holding? There is only so much land there.

So much for the general discussion. I want to deal now with a few little matters that concern my constituency. There was a farm of 460 acres down there named Finnure. At the time of the "mixum-Government", that 460 acres could be purchased for, I think, £4,600. The Land Commission, of which the "mixum-Government" Minister, the former Deputy Joe Blowick, was in charge, refused to buy it. It changed hands a few times and when I got a look at it some years later it was in the hands of a German. I made representations to the Land Commission and they purchased it for, I think, £24,000 or £30,000 which the tenants have to pay. That is the difference between a so-called Government and a Government. That was the cost. That farm is now being divided.

There is another farm down there in the Trabolgan Estate, which was taken over some years ago and divided by another genius. They got holdings of between 20 and 30 acres on which to eke out a livelihood. I have taken five or six trips into that area in the past few months in my anxiety to see that estate straightened out and fixed up. I got one tenant who is prepared to hand over his holding of about 35 acres to be divided among the others and bring them somewhere near economic holdings if he gets a holding in Finnure. His name is Stafford and I make no apology for giving his name and the particulars. I am asking the Minister, who can now undo some of the evil that has been done, to divide this holding up among the other smallholders in the area. By doing that and giving this man a holding you will clear up that situation just as we had to clear up Ballymacoda by taking over Finn's holding and shifting him to Castletownroche. If Deputies look round their constituencies and see things for themselves they can avoid a lot of trouble for the Land Commissioners and everybody else. That is my honest conviction.

Deputy Flanagan alluded to the bad habit of the Land Commission of endeavouring to enrich themselves by letting the land year after year and not dividing it up. The Deputy is an auctioneer who is clever enough and I do not want to give him any tips but I have a cure for that business. If the Land Commission continue unduly in letting estates year by year all the Deputy has to do is to collect the boys, divide up the farm between them and say: "You bid on that field and you bid on the other field and let none of you bid on such a field." In that way they will find they will get the land for about £5 an acre which is just enough to pay the Land Commission.

: That would be dishonest.

: There is nothing dishonest in it, nothing dishonest in preventing a man from cutting his throat by bidding against his neighbours. I have seen land set to grow barley at £16 per acre. The Deputy saw it.

: I saw that poor fellow afterwards unable to pay the merchant's bill for the seed and manure and he had bid against his neighbour.

There is an area stretching one might say from Youghal, from Gortroe right along to Lady's Bridge on through Churchtown South and Ballycotton which in my opinion is a congested area and should get the same facilities and terms as were granted to congested areas under the recent Land Act. I suggest to the Minister that he take note of this and have the area examined and dealt with and I also suggest that any land advertised for public auction in that area should be purchased by the Land Commission for division until we are rid of congestion there.

Only once in a lifetime, perhaps, is a holding put up for auction which is large enough to relieve congestion and give unfortunate farmers trying to live on holdings from 11 to 20 acres and unable to rotate crops, and refused beet contracts on this account, an opportunity of acquiring a reasonable holding. I am at present listing holdings in that area that have been let year by year in conacre and otherwise for the purpose of having them taken over by the Land Commission for division and I have no hesitation in doing this. Where there are men, some of whom are living on 13 acres of land or up to 20 acres, and where they must go out, rather than lose contracts for beet or peas or other vegetables, and take land at whatever is demanded for it, it is time such land was taken over and divided among those people. That is my cure for congestion in my constituency.

An English firm has come into a portion of my constituency and at present they own 500 acres of land. The concern is run as a company and the man in charge is giving fairly good employment but I want to stop him stepping in and buying farm after farm and holding after holding. We had a plantation there before from which we have not recovered since. We had three families in there. I do not mind that; if they were there in previous generations let them stay and go on working but I definitely object to this system by which a British finance company can come here and purchase land under a cloak and then begin buying out farm after farm around the district. I sent the Minister for Lands some five months ago a note about one of the farms, Walsh's of Cloyne, that this gentleman was purchasing. I want the Minister to take that over and I do not want to have to come to the House later asking questions and raising the matter on the Adjournment. I want to have that farm and this stretch from Gortroe to Churchtown South where there are at least seven holdings let yearly in conacre at outrageous prices, all taken over by the Land Commission and divided among the smallholders in the area. If we are going to do our job let us do it.

There is an estate down there which was formerly known as the Flower estate and now as the Ponsonby estate. I mentioned it here some years ago. It includes a deerpark of about 75 acres of prime land and altogether comprises something over 900 but not quite 1,000 acres. Due to whatever influences were used at the time—and they were not political influences—the Land Commission took five acres from them. I suggest that the Ponsonby estate should also be taken over. It is at present being run by the gentlemen who represent the finance company.

That is the manner in which I hope to see the problems dealt with so far as my constituents are concerned. I thought that the Dunmanway estate which I mentioned to Deputy Murphy had been taken over and divided years ago. I have not bothered about it since. I now find that it was not taken over.

I should like to know from the Minister what is happening in connection with the Stanley estate. I hope he will be able to answer when replying to the debate as last year I asked the Minister to take over the estate. The division of the Stanley estate and the estate in Dunmanway would relieve a great deal of the congestion at present prevailing in the West Cork area. There are over 1,000 acres in the two estates combined. One acre there would be worth five acres in the peninsula that Deputy Murphy is talking about.

When we make a case to the Land Commission, we are entitled to be informed what has become of the land. Unfortunately, the Land Commission sometimes slips up or somebody slips up. Every slip-up on their part means that nine or ten families have to continue to live on uneconomic holdings, perhaps for the rest of their days. Some time ago I mentioned Miss Murphy's estate to the Department of Lands. Notice was served. Somebody got the land. That is a sore thorn in the flesh of at least nine or ten smallholders who are endeavouring to rear families on less than 20 statute acres of land.

I do not wish to say anything more on this matter because it is one that I feel very keenly about. The cases I have referred to are cases that I had hoped would have been settled a long time ago. I have spoken my mind here in connection with them and as to what should be done. Where there are uneconomic holders, their position must be remedied first. In areas as I have described, all land that becomes available should be purchased by the Land Commission for division. If that were done over a period of ten or 15 years there would be very little complaint about the condition of smallholders.

: I am just wondering what role Deputy Corry would fill best, whether that of Land Commissioner or Minister. The wealth of knowledge he possesses in regard to land is rather amazing. I hope the Minister will be able in his period in office to divide half as much land as Deputy Corry has divided in theory in the last half hour. It is rather strange that, after over 40 years in the Dáil, Deputy Corry has not been made Minister for Lands.

For three months we have heard nothing but tolerance for the West in this House. We have heard about tolerance for the West at churchgates, on the radio and have read about it in the papers and have seen it on television. "Tolerance" is an impressive word. It is a significant word coming from a Party that has tolerated a haemorrhage of emigration from the West since they first came into power. What have they done about that? They have tolerated it.

There is a great deal to be done in regard to land division in the West. I should like to know what has happened in regard to the Ó Móráin promise of 1963. Every man was to have 45 acres. The Minister, Deputy Ó Móráin, has come and gone. His promise of 45 acres built up great hopes among people in the West and they looked to Deputy Ó Móráin as a Moses leading the people into a Promised Land. What has been the history of Deputy Ó Móráin during this period as far as my constituency is concerned, the place to which all the tolerance was to be given? How many got 45 acres? How many got five acres? A man with 45 acres in west Galway would be called a rancher. To a great degree the type of farming that takes place in the West is the eking out of a living between Birmingham and, perhaps, an acre or half-acre of spuds.

When a Minister is a failure in his Department it would appear that the best way to deal with him is to transfer him. There have been a number of transfers. There have been three in the Department of Agriculture within a short period—as between Deputy Smith, Deputy Haughey and Deputy Blaney. I never witnessed such "three-card trick" shifting around of Ministers. We do not know who is Minister today or who will be Minister tomorrow. Deputy Ó Móráin has left the Department of Lands and his proposal is being shelved. He had another proposal, namely, to transfer the Department of Lands to Castlebar.

: I feel that this question does not relevantly arise on the Estimate for the Department of Lands.

: But, Sir——

: If the Deputy will bear with me for a moment—I feel that it does not arise relevantly on the Estimate for the Department of Lands. This seems to be a matter for the Minister for Finance.

: Usually one sees a figure in the Estimate but I fail to see any figure in respect of that proposal here. I do not see any figure even for a spade to cut the first sod. So much for that.

I represent an area where the land is poor and what is not arable can be described as horrible. Yet, it is possible to acquire an odd acre here and there. On many occasions, I have brought to the notice of the Department of Lands actual advertisements that appeared in the local paper offering 20 acres, 30 acres or ten acres of land for sale. Nothing was done. People who already had plenty of land bought this land. This was allowed by the Department of Lands, which stood idly by and did nothing about it.

A crash programme is needed. I do not think we shall ever solve this but at least we should go much further than we are going at present. It is a desperate situation when, as we see in the West, the Land Commission come and say, in effect: "If the land is anyway valuable at all, we cannot buy it: it is too dear." That situation must be taken in hand. If needs be, there should be a subsidy to meet the difference. We hear talk of subsidies in the West, of hand-outs, the dole, and so on. I suggest money could better be spent on subsidising the land to encourage young men to try to get a livelihood there.

It is rather strange to see the types of cheque-book farmers we have moving in to take over. They remind me of a lot of the cheque-book Taca men moving in to take over the towns. It is strange and rather galling to see the bullock owned by some of our town farmers, people who already have plenty of money but who, I suppose, are afraid there might be another bit of a credit squeeze and who want to have their money in something solid and secure: we cannot blame them. I understand that there is already a threat of another credit squeeze. It is rather galling to the small farmers of the West to have to stomach all this: it has been going on for years.

It is rather galling, also, to see the smallholders having to live on conacre year in year out. I have seen young men in my area throw up their hands in despair living in this 45 acre hope that, like Moses, they would be led by Deputy Ó Moráin into the Promised Land. A lot of these young men have gone to another land and, thank God, there is a certain policy amongst them of going over to Coventry, working hard there and coming back and stepping into the breach that the Department of Lands had failed to do and purchasing land themselves. More credit to these young men. A lot of them have settled down but they met their wives over there, too. They were Irish also. One can note these facts along the West coast in many places. We see them purchasing additions and trying to keep their heads above water. Thank God, John Bull is there for a lot of them. If he were not, God help us, there would be more marching on Dublin than a lot of the farmers.

I come now to a rather burning question—burning in every sense. It is very wrong indeed, to see people, year in year out, having to buy three or four days' cutting of turf from their neighbours while acres of bog held by the Land Commission are dedicated to snipe and curlew. Something must be done for the unfortunate people to whom I refer to make life a little more pleasant for them. Flooding may be caused by some lazy neighbour or some begrudger—they are everywhere: we need not go to the country for them: they are in this House. Lands can be flooded by a neighbour who is not cleaning his section of a drain. It is most unfair that such a situation should be tolerated. The inspector should be empowered to go in and get that job done and, if possible, charge the defaulter. It would do much to ease a lot of the bad feeling between neighbours.

The Minister tells us he is encountering difficulty in recruiting the full complement of inspectors. He states also that a new post of deputy chief inspector, located in the West, has been created. Let us hope we shall have a break-through in the West and also that we shall be able to maintain the full complement of inspectors. It is as simple as this: unless we pay the staff we shall not get them. We are competing now in a world-wide market—in the English-speaking world, anyway. Our young men will not remain on as martyrs while they can get good pay in other countries: it takes a lot of patriotism to do that nowadays. The Minister should ensure that they will be offered a proper salary and then we shall get them. We are turning them out. It is rather galling to see the best brains of our country going out and helping to build up other countries. I think it is a question of fiddling while Rome burns. If we have to pay the price to keep them here, we should do so.

Reference was made to foot and mouth disease and the hold on the shooting of game and wild fowl. Has there been an improvement in the stocks of wild fowl as a result of the hold on shooting? In the past, we said certain insecticides and certain weed killers, and so on, were killing our fowl. It is impossible to count all the birds but, this year, we might possibly get an indication of the overall picture or be able to assess it to a degree, anyway.

An important matter is the provision of fire-fighting equipment for our forests. A lot could be done in that respect. It would be sad if the work of years were destroyed overnight by fire. There should be some proper equipment. With the plastic piping now available, we should have some laid-on water supply. I realise it is very difficult to get water supply for unfortunate people in country districts but, with the plastic piping, it should be possible to make some arrangement whereby the fire brigade would be able to deal with an outbreak of forest fire. I should like the Minister to examine that possibility. I raised it here before. Let us hope to see greater planting of trees. It used to be the policy to say that only God can make a tree and leave it at that, but there is also the saying that God helps those who help themselves.

I wish the Minister well. I hope he will not be like some other Ministers when it comes to accounting for his stewardship. I know he is fond of the cúpla focal. Dá bhrí sin, deirim leis gur ceart dó ní amháin aire a thabhairt don teanga ansin ach do na daoine agus don talamh chomh maith.

If he does he will find there is a reason for what I have told him about the West. If he goes there he should not mind the language alone, but mind the people and the land. If he does not, we will have neither people nor language before long. If the Minister wants to save the language and if he is an enthusiast, he should save the Irish speaker and give him some reason to stay in his own country.

: Cuidím leis na rúin mholta agus chomhgháirdeachais a tugadh anso don Aire nua agus guím rath ar a chuid oibre an seal a bheidh sé san áit ina bhfuil sé anois.

The first point in the Minister's statement with which I should like to deal is the pilot areas. I felt that the work in the pilot areas would hold up the work throughout the rest of the constituency which I represent, but I must congratulate the Minister and the Department for taking the necessary step to deal with this problem by increasing the staff in the Department, particularly the outdoor staff and the staffs in the offices down the country. To a certain extent he has done this already, and I see that he intends to introduce a new cadre of officials which he calls sub-professional field officers to assist the inspectors. I should like to impress upon him that the sooner he can get this done the better it will be for all of us. There is no doubt that the staffs down the country cannot get around all the work that is facing them.

Deputy Flanagan made an appeal to the Minister to receive deputations of people from different areas when they or their Deputies wish to impress on him or his officials the necessity for some activity in a particular area. Perhaps this may be necessary on some occasions, but my experience is that his officials down the country are always prepared to meet people, be they individuals or deputations. No doubt they meet Deputies and Senators and county councillors, too. I feel it is wrong to give the impression to this House or from this House to outsiders that there is no direct contact between the Minister's officials and the people down the country. The opposite is the case. Anyone is free to go into the local offices, at certain times, of course, and inquire about personal problems, and as to where they stand in relation to their applications for land. That has been the procedure since I was elected in my area. Perhaps there may be occasions when the Minister should meet deputations, and I suppose one can always think of one particular case in one's area where that should have been done, but it is true to say that there is definite contact between the Land Commission and the people of the country.

There are a few things in this report with which I should like to deal. The first is the question of land annuities. This is the 1933 Land Act. It refers to the halving of annuities. I am a bit confused about this. I take it that the 1933 Act halved the annuities of all those paying annuities up to that time. Does the same Act halve the annuities of those who got land subsequent to that Act? If so do those who got land outside congested areas and paid purchase instalments pay half or pay full? I wonder is there a difference between a purchase instalment and an annuity. The Minister said:

All allottees in congested areas, together with migrants and displaced employees getting holdings in noncongested areas, get the benefit of the halving of annuities.

This is my problem. Are those people, in fact, paying only 25 per cent of the complete annuity? To put it another way: subsequent to 1933 do all those outside the congested areas have to pay half the annuity or the full annuity? If those outside the congested areas are paying half the annuity, do those in the congested areas, in fact, pay only a quarter of the annuity? That is something I have thought about off and on and I should like to have the matter cleared up when the Minister is replying.

Another thing I should like to refer to deals with section 6 of the 1965 Act —and I shall deal with the elderly first. It is stated that 236 applicants were considered and that 138 applicants were eliminated at an early stage. That seems to be a very big figure to be eliminated—138 out of 236, leaving 98 for consideration. I should like the Minister to indicate to us why this large number of 138 were rejected, because if that is the exact position and if it continues to be the position many people will be in serious difficulties and it will be very hard to make a success of the scheme. The Minister said:

The area purchased by the Land Commission through the 11 completed cases is 563 acres——

That represents an average of 50 acres—

——and a further area of 504 acres is expected from the advanced cases.

That is an average of 35 acres. I wonder am I fair to the Minister and the Department in inferring from this that this section will deal only with applicants whose farms range from the region of 30 to 55 acres? If it excludes those under 30 acres many people will be excluded from its benefits. Many of those with under 30 acres are people who should be considered. Much the same remark could be made on section 5. The Minister said applications were received from 120 people, 106 were investigated and "a substantial portion failed at an early stage mainly because the applicants' lands were considered unsuitable". This I have no doubt is a repetition of the same conditions as were stated under section 6. Again, I feel the Minister should explain to the House why this number were found unsuitable.

Also under this heading of loans given to farmers to buy land outside their areas, we must consider the question of interest. As far as I am aware the interest offered by the Land Commission has no advantage over that offered by commercial sources. If it has, I should like the Minister to explain to the House what the advantages of this scheme are from the point of view of interest as distinct from borrowing money from other sources.

The Minister refers also to the six completed cases of loans and grants amounting to about £25,000. I should like to know what the grants consist of and in what circumstances grants are given to these people who wish to migrate from their own farms. Again, I was not aware that such grants were available to those people transferring from one place to another by their own resources.

I notice that it is the intention of the Land Commission to rehabilitate all land which it is giving to migrants. It is an ideal thing to do and they are to be highly commended for this. It gives those people who transfer to strange areas a very good opportunity of getting started on a proper footing.

I should like to refer to an article which I read in a journal, the name of which escapes me; I think it was a journal on agriculture published by OECD. The article was contributed by one of the senior officials of the Minister's Department and I should like to ask the Minister to have this article published in all the local papers throughout the country. For the first time I can say I have got a good idea of what the Land Commission has on its mind and the purpose for which it has been set up by the State. There is a wealth of information in this article. It answers many questions that people ask us and it explains many of the difficulties with which the Land Commission finds itself faced. I am certain that, if we circulated it to the local papers, they would be glad to publish it.

The final point with which I should like to deal on this Estimate is one which has been dealt with by other speakers. It is this question of the people who are not eligible for land. The first is the cottier. He has been referred to by two or three previous speakers and I should like to support them in asking that the cottier who is energetic enough to have a few cattle should certainly be considered when land is being divided around. It is pathetic that some of these people find that, although they may be grazing whatever stock they have on the particular land taken over by the Land Commission, when the land is being divided they are not considered or, if they are considered, they are not considered successfully. I would exhort the Minister to make representations to his officers to deal more leniently and more sympathetically with these people.

The other type of man with which I should like to deal is the landless man. There are various kinds of landless men, but I am thinking of two in particular: the man who goes to England to secure some capital and wishes to return to this country to get land and to live on it; and the man who avails of the farm apprenticeship scheme. Land should be made available to these people. Strictly speaking, the law does not exclude a landless man from getting land, but the principle which obtains is that by giving him land you may be creating another small farm.

Other Deputies have commented on the fact that our pool of land is very limited and that we never could hope to satisfy all the demands. Deputy Oliver Flanagan has asked for more law. I agree with him in this. We should have a new law in this respect. I am convinced that we shall never make any real impression on the land hunger of this country until such time as we decide to limit the number of acres a man may have. Fifty acres is the Land Commission figure at the moment. It is suggested that in the future a man may need up to 150 or 200 acres of land, but I think this House would be fair to everybody if we decided that no man would be entitled to more than 200 acres of land.

Any farm being sold, whether it comes on the market or not, should be available to the Land Commission for division. There are 5,000 people holding farms of 200 acres or more. I think I am right in saying this is a million acres of land. If we accept the Land Commission figure of 50 acres and succeeded in dividing this, we would create 20,000 more landholders. If we took 100 acres we would create 10,000 more landholders. We should set about doing this.

People may say to me that this is the opposite of what our forefathers fought for: fixity of tenure, free sale. I agree that it is, but times have changed since then. The object of legislation and administration now seems to be the greatest good of the greatest number. In trying to achieve this the State—and this includes everybody—has no hesitation at all in entering in on my private property and the private property of my colleagues, the doctors. Over the years numerous Acts have been passed in this House interfering one way or another with the private property of the doctors, which is the right to practice medicine. The State has decided it must be done in a certain way, and I never heard a howl from anybody except from the doctors.

That is understandable enough, and I believe that in the same way we should tackle this land problem. The people who will be affected will be able to put up with this, because I think it is written into the Acts that they must get full value for the land, so to this extent they will not be suffering in any way as a result of what I suggest. Until this is done we shall not make the real progress in providing land for which this House hopes.

One cannot say much about the forestry situation. The Forestry Division is running into the situation mentioned by the Minister, the difficulty of getting land. I am glad that the price for land has been increased so that better land will be available to the Department. It would be interesting to know what the Forestry Division requires when it proposes to acquire land for afforestation purposes. In the past we were reared with the idea that any land was suitable for afforestation, but this notion has disappeared and we know that reasonable land is required in order to get the necessary production.

I have a feeling that in my area the Department of Agriculture have made things more difficult for the Forestry Division by the provision of grants for mountain sheep whereby land can be fenced and fertilised. In the past there was a tendency to sell this land to the Forestry Division. I am told that this grant is a very good grant and worth availing of and in this way the land is lost to afforestation. However, because the price has been raised I am sure the land will be made available for afforestation.

: As a Deputy who comes from what used to be called the congested area and which is still entitled to bear that name, I have a few general remarks to make. Unfortunately, I did not get a copy of the Minister's speech until a few moments ago and consequently I cannot go into it in any great detail. I wish the Minister well in every effort he can make to broaden the scope of his Department and to attempt to solve the problems that have existed in the west long before the State was established. Over the years certain progress has been made. That has been due to many Ministers and to the officials of the Land Commission and I should like to pay tribute to the men who work for the Land Commission. The men I know in the western areas are men of intelligence, broad vision and tolerance. They have a very difficult job to do and they do it magnificently. Land questions are burning questions and they are the sorest questions you can meet in the country. No city man or anybody raised in an urban area could imagine the heat that can be engendered when it comes to the acquisition of a strip of land. The field man and the office men in the Land Commission over the years have acquired a knowledge and an expertise in dealing with these problems and I compliment them.

I would point out to the Minister that the speed which is necessary for dealing with these problems is a matter for him and any means he can adopt to accelerate the speed of acquisition and division of land in the western areas will be welcome. This, I suppose, also involves the acquisition of lands in eastern areas and in the midlands to accommodate migrants. But in the main I should like to see him devoting his energies to the quick solution of local problems in the western areas. There is no point in the Land Commission acquiring a holding and then retaining it year after year and letting it out in conacre. You cannot develop conacre because no one will drain or fertilise the land and it is an absolute loss for the Land Commission to hold the land in conacre because the land is deteriorating every month they have it let. The Minister will be justified in taking whatever steps he can to ensure that the land is given to A, B or C and in 99.9 cases out of 100 the officials will give it to the right people, but it should be given to them quickly. Land can deteriorate just as a building can or anything that is left without attention. Today, with our knowledge of fertilisers and proper husbandry and farming methods, the land is producing more than ever before; but it is still not producing enough. This might be a matter for discussion in an agricultural debate, but at the same time the Land Commission come into the picture and they should make the best possible use of all the lands they hold at the moment. The best way they can do that is to have the lands divided as quickly as possible. If the Minister succeeds in cutting the red tape that exists he will be doing a service to the State, to himself, the Government and everybody else. We should all like to see every acre utilised to the best advantage in the interests not of Party but in the interests of all of us because we all belong to the country.

I should like the Minister to look into this matter of delays in investigation and the delays which occur after investigation. He should shorten the procedures which have been traditional. I know that the field men always try to do the best they can to investigate every applicant to see if he is a person who should get the land and also to see that no injustice is done to anybody else, but that is as far as they can go. The head office must deal with the legalities and all the other matters which must be gone into before land can be divided. This is a problem with which the Minister must deal. Far be it from me to attempt to say how he can do it; it is a matter for him, but it is necessary. We are living in the space age, the age of speed, and nobody is going to wait ten years to have a problem investigated and solved. In the future, problems must be solved rapidly. In the old days people were prepared to wait for several years so that their problems could be solved; but today life is moving too rapidly and if something cannot be solved quickly there is no use solving it at all. There is no use solving matters for posterity; they must be solved for the people who are alive. As I say, the thing to do is to cut out the red tape, get men on the land, men who will take a pride in it, drain it, fertilise it and work it.

From time to time I have received complaints about the fencing which is now put up where land has been divided. The day of the old traditional sod fence has gone, the fence which was put up by cheap labour or what some people used call slave labour. Stone fencing is very expensive today and chain link fencing is rapidly replacing stone. In this type of fencing a certain expertise is required. The wire has to be top quality; if it is not, then, as one fellow said, a bullock scratching himself on it will put a bulge in it and that is the end of the fence. Again, such a fence provides no shelter for animal or land, to say nothing of its looking like a concentration camp. The traditional fence of stone and sod and bush provided shelter for sheep and cattle. It also sheltered the land and the crops growing on it. Aesthetically speaking, I doubt very much if wire fencing adds anything to the appearance of the countryside. The traditional fence had a certain appeal. It blended with the scenery and, from a tourist point of view, anything that enhances the appearance of the countryside is to be commended.

Where housing is concerned, I would urge the Minister to vary the design as much as possible. It should not be possible to identify a Land Commission house from ten miles away. Too much standardisation in design is a bad thing. I know people who would prefer to get a Local Government grant towards the erection of a house rather than have the Land Commission build for them because there is a wider selection and more variety in Local Government designs. There really should be no problem here. If Local Government can have variety then equally the Land Commission should be able to vary the designs.

Again, there should be no problem in acquiring land for afforestation. There are thousands of acres in the West unsuitable for anything but forestry. Perhaps it is a question of finance. Certainly the land is available and scientific data is available in regard to the most suitable types of trees. The forests already planted have been an asset from many points of view. Instead of bog and marsh there are large expanses of trees clothing the barren spaces. I appeal to the Minister to urge his colleague, the Minister for Finance, to provide more money for more afforestation still. A good deal remains to be done. A growing forest is a delight to the eye. Apart from its attractiveness, afforestation is a commercial proposition from the point of view of the economy. Despite progress in the development of synthetics timber will always be needed.

In many cases local authorities acquire land for road building or reconstruction and, very often, bare spaces are left. These spaces could be planted with trees. A lay-by could be constructed where tourists and others could pause to enjoy the young trees and the countryside generally. Better liaison between the Land Commission and the local authorities in this regard could pay a dividend.

Deputy Dr. Gibbons talked about giving land to landless men. My advice to the Minister is to satisfy the needs first of those who are actually on the land at the moment and the quicker the Minister does that the better it will be.

The Deputy asked if more law would be required to deal with the present situation. Now, I do not like too much law. In my opinion there is enough of it on the Statute Book. With the use of commonsense very little law is needed. There may be odd cases in which some amending law would be required, but I think the powers we have at the moment should be adequate to deal with any eventuality that might arise.

I am glad the Minister is now appointing new personnel and intends to use the existing personnel to the optimum. With the background they have, the people who work for the Land Commission will be able to ensure that any new personnel in the service will carry on the traditions, but the cutting out of the red tape is the thing I am most interested in. If new personnel are still tied by red tape we shall not have the results the Minister wants, I want and every rural Deputy wants. I am glad these new people are being employed. There is plenty of work for them to do.

I do not know how the retirement schemes have worked out. On the basis of what I have been able to read in the Minister's speech during the short time I had available to study it, it appears to me that it has reflected on only a small number of people and has not been making any impact on the comprehensive land resettlement problem. I know how conservative people in the rural areas are. In the main, the small holdings that can be given up under the retirement schemes are not capable of earning an annuity that could give the people concerned a reasonable weekly wage, or salary, or whatever you might call it. That is the great problem. The Land Commission can afford to pay only something like the market price for land. This would be too dear for the people taking over the land and this might mean abandonment of holdings later if the man concerned is not able to sustain himself after paying rates and the high annuity that will be demanded. Then we are back again where we started. What does the Minister think will happen? Will the retirement schemes have any effect in the solution of our land resettlement problem?

On the question of the pilot areas scheme, I agree that the Minister should do his best to solve all the western problems as soon as possible in the best possible way, but we should be given at this stage an indication of whether the pilot areas scheme will direct us to what we should do with the entire farm economy of the western areas. The Minister should endeavour to ensure that all possible services are given in those areas, because if we can solve the problems in them we could then branch out to the remainder of the country.

I come, then, to the matter of loans for the buying of farms. I do not know how far the Minister has gone in that respect, but apparently the scheme is not having the effect that it was intended to have. I know the farming community are conservative in most things and that one thing in particular a farmer does not like is the burden of a loan hanging around his neck, no matter how small the amount is. This inhibition can be broken down if the farmers are educated to the fact that, if they can get money to increase their productivity, they can get a profit from it. If that is done, farmers will accept loans. As I have said, however, they must be educated to it. Therefore, all sides of political opinion should be on their toes to ensure that we get the message across that a loan is a good thing for a man who has an agricultural adviser to help him to spend it wisely. We should all be behind the idea of loans for farmers and the idea that a loan is a political thing should be thrown out. Whenever somebody who wants it applies for a loan, provided he passes the initial test, he should get the loan in the shortest possible time. This would give a headline to other people in the area who might have been hesitant.

I am glad to learn of the different publications being made available for the benefit of both Deputies and farmers. This was certainly lacking in the past. However, I suggest that the literature which county committees of agriculture and others dealing with farmers hand out should not be composed by experts or in the language of experts. It should be in language which the ordinary farmer-in-the-field will understand readily. It should be so designed that the headline sticks out and tells the person concerned exactly what the matter contains so that he will not have to wade through a mass of words to get the point. A well-designed, informative summary would be well worth the Land Commission's time and energy.

Valuations are a sore point in the western areas where I come from. In the case of a man who builds a Land Commission house with the help of the commission and possibly a loan, the valuation on his land might be £5 or £6 or possibly less than £5. However, he finds his house is valued at £6. In Mayo, unfortunately, the rate in the £ is £4 9s 6d. When a man has a valuation of £6 on his house, and after a seven-year period he is suddenly faced with his rates bill, he asks what has happened. The house will be more than he can bear. His land is valued at only £5 and it is a shocking thing for such a man to be faced with a situation in which he has to pay £27 10s 0d rates for the house. I do not know what the Land Commission can do about that but somebody must do something about it because it is completely out of order.

The Valuation Office work on the same idea throughout the country: the same is done in Meath as in the rocks of Mayo. The Minister should examine the position to see if by some means the people who get new holdings with new houses are given a longer period of rates rebate. If the valuation laws cannot be changed in this respect, the Minister should arrange to give twice the period of rebate so that this thing could balance out.

Of course, in the case of divided land, the valuations are not the only problem. The annuities, as well, face the farmers with heavy burdens. However, I will not say anything about the annuities now because if people are prepared to pay high prices for conacre they should be asked to pay their annuities. I am more concerned that the question of house valuations should be looked into sympathetically by the Minister to see if anything can be done to ease the burden.

That is all I have to say at the moment. I wish the Minister well in all the things he has to do. I know the problems are there; I know a lot about them. All of us here who come from farming areas will be prepared sincerely to give every advice and help to the Minister. We all hope he will be successful in his efforts to divide more land and to grow more trees.

: Like the previous speakers, I congratulate the Minister on his appointment and wish him every success. In regard to the Land Commission, I should like particularly to refer to their working in my constituency and to our problems there. The principal problem there, that of staffing, is very serious at the moment. We have two inspectors for the whole of County Clare and I should think they are the two most hardworking men in the county. However, no matter how hard they work they have not a hope of dealing with the volume of work before them and I am glad the Minister is making arrangements to recruit more staff during the coming year. Most of these inspectors are agriccultural graduates. From speaking to some of these young agricultural graduates I find they are more attracted to the county advisory service than the Land Commission as inspectors. Perhaps the Commission might have another look at the terms of appointment they offer to these young graduates to attract more of them.

With regard to the re-arrangement of land within the county, the main problem here is to divide the land already acquired. I believe there are 5,000 acres now in the possession of the Land Commission in Clare, some of this being let each year for nearly five years. I see very little hope of having any serious division of this without further staff. Most auctioneers will only be too happy to recommend to their clients that they offer their lands to the Commission when it comes up for sale. So long as the Commission pay market value for these lands they will have no problems with regard to getting more land.

The problem of congested areas will probably die out altogether in time except in isolated cases.

With regard to the migration schemes, particularly the exchange of holdings schemes, I find that since March I have had more people interviewing me about this matter than about any other matter in the Land Commission field. I would say there must be 300 to 400 applicants in Clare for exchange holdings, which I presume is the same as any other western county. Last year the Commission allotted 49 holdings to the county, so far as I know. This made no impression whatsoever on the number of applicants. Perhaps it would be better to tell some of these people they are wasting their time in hoping to get exchanges rather than have them running from one TD to another throughout the country trying to put on pressure where nothing can be done because of lack of suitable holdings for exchange.

With regard to the self migration scheme, I understand at the moment that if a person gives up his holding and it is found suitable for acquisition the Commission are willing to loan him the difference between the value they place on the holding and £10,000. As Deputy Flanagan stated earlier, land in the midlands to where most of these people are exchanged is making upwards of £200 an acre. I would suggest to the Minister that this ceiling should be raised to £15,000 to make this scheme successful and to facilitate those who want to avail of it to acquire decent-sized holdings in the area where they want to go. I believe £10,000 will not now buy a very big holding in most of the areas with suitable land for migration.

Lastly, I would like to refer to the manner in which the congested and non-congested districts are determined, particularly in my own county. Hanging on the wall of the Land Commission offices there is a map. There are three districts which are known as non-congested districts—Ennis rural area, Corofin rural area and Limerick rural area. On the western side of the Ennis area there are very small holdings of poor quality land, some of it even bogland. It is deemed to be non-congested, while on the eastern side of this area, outside the non-congested borderline, you have lands suitable for tillage that could even be termed fattening lands. These are deemed to be in the congested area. This is a very important factor in the division of lands, as we know it means half of the annuity. I am not suggesting the map should be revised at all. I would recommend that the whole of the county would be deemed to be a congested area.

: I will be brief on this. I, like other speakers, would like to congratulate the Minister on his appointment. He has a very good staff in the west of Ireland. I represent a constituency there and I would be unfair to his staff if I did not say I found them very co-operative in every way possible with myself as a Deputy, the other members of the county council, and particularly with the general public. One can often find the job of land division very difficult from the inspector's point of view, particularly in the west of Ireland, because the usual procedure there with the Land Commission is that they will not purchase or take over a holding of land unless they have more than enough applicants to take it. One can then immediately see the difficulty in dividing it. I do not suppose it would be an exaggerated statement to say that you might have six people looking for a portion of land in a very small holding where it would take in the region of 100 acres of land to satisfy them. There might only be in the region of 20, 30 or 40 acres for division. That would make the inspector's job rather difficult, taking it all in all. They interview each applicant and judge him on his ability to farm and on the general result of his own farming. I would be unfair to these Land Commission people if I did not say that in 99 per cent of the cases the decision is most fair. One very often finds, when the Land Commission purchase or take over a smallholding in these congested areas, there is tremendous delay in dividing the holding. I cannot understand the reason for this delay. In some cases the land might be let for perhaps four or five successive years. This causes trouble with neighbours because people seem to think that, if they have the land taken from the Land Commission, they have a claim on it when it is being divided. Very often one finds that when it is let by an auctioneer it is let at more than twice the price it should which, in my opinion, is most unfair. I would like the Minister to take a look at this situation. If he does, he will find I am telling the truth about it. He will find these people are not very friendly, which can lead to endless trouble amongst neighbours. If the Land Commission would move in and divide these holdings much faster, it would be better for everybody. We all thought after the 1965 Land Act that we were going to have great progress so far as division of land was concerned in the west of Ireland. We knew and understood from the then Minister that all problems were not going to be solved immediately. That was 2½ to three years ago. I doubt if any problems have been solved under this 1965 Act so far as my constituents are concerned, because the Land Commission have actually made very little, if any, offer to purchase land from the older people and to give them the pensions which they were promised under the Act. In County Limerick quite recently one of the inspectors said that they only purchased two small farms of land. That in itself would clearly indicate that there is not much of an effort being made in that direction.

I should like the Minister to look into that, particularly in the County Leitrim, where it seems to be a great problem and where, I am quite satisfied, there is a number of small holdings which would be sold to the Land Commission if the effort were made to purchase them. That in itself would ease a tremendous amount of congestion. We all know how congested some places are, like, for instance, north Roscommon, north and south Leitrim. In these places the old story is much more in evidence than in any other part of the country—one field owned by Jack Brennan, the next by his neighbour and the field across by Jack Brennan.

This is 1968 and we have had native Government for long enough to have these problems solved and I have no doubt that the Land Commission will get the necessary co-operation from the farming community to at least solve these problems and make an effort to make a holding, no matter how small, one unit so that it will not be scattered here, there and everywhere. As I have said, that would ease the problem which very often ends up in our courts.

The Minister made reference to some progress in the pilot area of Aughaves in County Leitrim. I do not think that the Land Commission have made much progress there. I doubt if the Land Commission are exerting themselves in order to solve some of the problems that should be solved in that particular pilot area and, I am sure, the same can be said of the pilot area in Ballinameen, County Roscommon. I certainly think that the Land Commission should do something about it and the best way they could tackle that would be in relation to migration. If my memory serves me aright, only two people have migrated from County Leitrim during the past five years. This, despite the fact that very often when Government speakers find themselves in the constituency they make endless promises with regard to migration.

One is inclined to ask if the Government are seriously trying to increase the small holdings in that particular county. The Minister would be well advised to have a look at this situation. Recently some estates were taken over in County Roscommon and divided among a number of smallholders there. However, we very often find there, at least in one particular estate, the Land Commission made no effort to make roads through it and the people concerned have, I am sure, even yet, to plough their way to their holding.

The local authority maintain that it is not their responsibility. They say that these are not public roads and that they should have been put into a reasonable state of repair by the Land Commission before the holdings were handed over.

: Hear, hear.

: These roads were probably in a reasonable state of repair prior to the Land Commission coming in but they came in there, used heavy machinery and damaged the roads. The local authorities feel, therefore, that the Land Commission, and rightly so, should have made some effort to put the roads into such a state of repair that they could be maintained and taken over by the local authority. I think the Minister should look at this situation also.

Regarding land that is being offered for forestry I have no doubt, as some other speaker said, that there is plenty of land available for plantation both in County Leitrim and County Roscommon. If the Land Commission were serious about the purchase of this land one would expect that they would offer much more than 10/- per acre for it. The Minister today made reference to increasing the price of land. He said the Land Commission are prepared to buy land for forestry planting, but I certainly think that where they are offering 10/- per acre the Land Commission are not serious about it. I could quote a particular case within the past two years, certainly within the past year where a reasonably sized farm of land, admittedly in the mountains, was offered to the Land Commission but they only offered 10/- an acre for it.

If they offer a reasonable price I think they would be able to get ample land for planting and most of this land is only suitable for planting.

I should like to make another point regarding forestry. It very often happens that the Land Commission and the Forestry Division do not seem to have any co-operation in this particular matter. One would find that the Forestry Division would buy a farm of land with a view to planting it and at the same time there would be people prepared to take portion of this land for agricultural purposes.

For some unknown reason, or possibly some silly written law, the Land Commission cannot give them a portion of it. One could understand this if a portion of land was in the middle of the holding but very often it is on the outside where it should be quite easy to transfer it to the applicant who would be anxious to take it and work it as an agricultural holding. I know of one case where there were 35 acres of land involved. Some people were prepared to take it from the Forestry Division and put it into their own holdings but the Forestry Division refused them. The reason they gave was that they had assured the Land Commission about this holding before they had taken it over. That is not a fair or reasonable attitude on the part of either the Land Commission or the Forestry Division.

If they co-operated more closely with each other they would have a much better result. For instance, if the Forestry Division purchase a holding of land and if there are people prepared to take part of this holding I think they are entitled to first preference and the regulation that exists in the Forestry Division which says they are not prepared to offer it is most unfair.

We also have the question of loans for the purchase of land by young farmers. That scheme is not making much progress, if any at all, in either County Roscommon or County Leitrim. I believe the reason that is so is because of the rate of interest charged by the Land Commission. Most farmers, and particularly most small farmers, are rather slow to borrow money. They do not like to tie a millstone around their neck because there is no security of income. They cannot say to themselves that they will get so much for their calves the following year. They have to run the risk of prices for their calves being reduced, and I think it is most unfair.

The rate of interest on loans to farmers for the purchase of land should be much lower than it is at the moment and it should certainly be much lower than that for any other loan for the purpose of house building or anything else you can think of.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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