Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 5 Dec 1968

Vol. 237 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Vote 20: Office of the Minister for Justice (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That a sum not exceeding £292,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1969, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, and of certain other Services administered by that Office, including a Grantin-Aid; and of the Public Record Office, and of the Keeper of State Papers and for the purchase of His torical Documents, etc.

—(Minister for Justice).

Dr. O'Connell

I should like to refer in particular this morning to telephone tapping. I regard this practice as an intrusion on the privacy of the individual. Considering the present situation in Northern Ireland and the situation elsewhere in the world where freedom is curtailed, I think the practice of telephone tapping utterly deplorable. A telephone call should be a very private affair and the practice here is one to which the Minister should put a stop forthwith. The practice is not in the public interest and public anxiety has been expressed about the practice from time to time. The Minister is invariably reticent about giving information about this practice. I should like to know whose telephones are tapped and why? We are not yet, I think, living in a police state. I should also like to know who sifts whatever information is obtained. The Minister really ought to answer the question. I should like him to give an assurance that there is, first of all, no need for this practice and, secondly, that it will be discontinued. Are Deputies' telephones tapped? Are the telephones of those in public positions tapped? Are the telephones of those who may appear to oppose the present Administration tapped? This is a very serious matter and airing it here will bring it to public notice. It is a very obnoxious practice.

With regard to the Special Branch, what exactly is the Special Branch and what is its purpose? How many men are employed? What is their function? Who are the men? The Minister is always reluctant to give any information about the Special Branch and those who man it.

Freedom is a very important thing and, because it is, there should be an end to the Special Branch. I do not know of any determined or serious attempt by anyone to overthrow the State or the Government. Organisations, irrespective of whom they are constituted, must have the right to free assembly, orderly meetings and public speaking.

On crime in general, vandalism is costing the ratepayers a great deal of money. Not enough is being done to stop vandalism. I should like to see the gardaí in their new role with a closer liaison with the people. It would be an excellent idea if gardaí attended meetings of the various associations and explained to those gathered in such associations the particular problems with which they are faced. They should also lecture in the schools. That would engender in the children a greater respect for the gardaí. They should be more of the community as well as being in the community. There should, too, be seminars and post-graduate courses of training. It might be a good idea if the gardaí had courses in psychology.

Vandalism might be curtailed by the presence of more plain clothes gardaí. The presence of a garda in uniform may deter potential vandals. If the gardaí were in plain clothes they would not be easily identifiable because children would not know whether or not they were gardaí. This would be a deterrent to children who indulge in vandalism. In my own constituency I see people who are terrorised by children and teenagers, and the police say they are powerless. They are not properly equipped to deal with this problem. The Force is depleted in the city areas, and the garda are not able to cope with this problem. That is a serious state of affairs.

I will refer to one case which occurred recently when an old man who was being terrorised by these people went out to try and stop them. He got excited and died suddenly. It was a natural death, but I am wondering would he have died if this had not happened. While these vandals were not directly responsible for his death, I believe they were indirectly responsible. I would have thought that the Garda authorities would make a study of where vandalism is most rife, and have consultations with residents' and tenants' associations to see how it might be curtailed in those areas. In the same areas where vandalism is rife they might even have consultations with the authorities and the teachers in the schools affected. That would be a constructive way to overcome this problem.

I have had contact with young people who have been engaged in vandalism and I know that, if you talk to them properly and make them aware of their responsibilities, you can win them around. That is the approach which should be adopted by the Garda authorities. Closer consultation with the schools, with parents' associations and tenants' and residents' associations could do a tremendous amount to eliminate vandalism.

I do not intend to say much about prisons. One point disturbs me. Many prisoners have reason to write to their solicitors on private matters, and those letters are opened by the Governor of the prison. What happens between a solicitor and his client, who is a prisoner, must be a very private matter. It is completely wrong that these letters should be opened by the Governor. He must read them before they are sent to the solicitor. That is very wrong. It is an infringement of the privacy of discussion between prisoner and solicitor. I should like the Minister to arrange to have this practice stopped immediately.

The situation in our prisons is reasonably good. First offenders can be released on parole if they have employment. That is good. I have spoken to many young people about this and I think it is excellent. The only problem is that we find that so many of these first offenders cannot obtain employment. I should like to dwell on this for a while. Once a man has been a prisoner he cannot get a reference, and he is deprived of employment for the rest of his life on so many occasions. I was in touch with a State body about a young boy who was involved in a transaction within that company and was dismissed. He was faced with a charge the outcome of which might have resulted in his going to prison for three months. I was told by the State company that they could not give him a reference.

If he had employment he would be allowed out on parole, but they said that if any prospective employer contacted them, they would have to explain that they had dismissed him, and that would be their reference. I could not expect them to give a reference to the effect that he was a first-class person, but there must be some way out of this, because if we do not seek a solution to it we are really subjecting these people to a life of crime. If they cannot take their place in life as ordinary citizens they are being deprived of the right to work and that, in itself, may be the cause of their continuing in a life of crime.

We must discuss the question of traffic in Dublin city which is a source of concern to so many people. I should like the role of the traffic warden to be clarified by the Minister. I should like to know are they appointed for the sole purpose of collecting revenue, or are they employed to prevent offences against the traffic laws. I am wondering about the new clearway regulations which came into effect a short time ago. Sometimes we are inclined to have too many regulations and not seek a solution to the problems created by those regulations.

I know it is not the function of the Minister's Department to provide offstreet parking, but we cannot just make regulations. Cars have to go somewhere. There should be a closer liaison between the Department of Local Government and the Department of Transport and Power on this matter. If we establish an inner circle in the city in which there is no parking we must have a proper bus service to bring people into the city. It is not good enough to make regulations without knowing the problems created by them. Dublin city traffic has proved to be a headache for so many people that immediate attention must be given to it.

Perhaps the Minister might consider a Garda patrol helicopter service, or make use of the existing helicopters to deal with the bottle-necks which arise. He might consider closed circuit television operating from the traffic department in Dublin Castle as an effective measure to relieve the bottle-necks in the city. When these bottle-necks arise, by the time a Garda can come along to try to solve them, they can reach tremendous proportions and disrupt all the traffic in the area. Closed circuit television might help to relieve that situation, and I do not think the cost would be phenomenal.

Another point I want to mention is malicious damage against Corporation tenants. I do not know whether this comes within the scope of the Minister's Department, but where malicious damage occurs against Corporation tenants they have no redress. They should have. They are ratepayers. Other ratepayers have redress but not Corporation tenants. This should be rectified. As ratepayers they should be compensated for malicious damage.

I often see ambulances, fire brigades and police cars on duty with their sirens sounding, and no attempt made by motorists to pull in to the side to leave them freedom of movement. I lived for a number of years in the States and I know that when this happens over there it is understood—it is in the traffic code—that cars must pull in immediately, to the right in their case. We should have it explained to the public that cars should pull in immediately to the left and stop to allow free passage. It is very important that we realise that lives are at stake in matters like this and it should be explained as quickly as possible.

There is one point—I realise it does not arise on this Estimate—that concerns the Criminal Justice Bill. The Minister should endeavour to allay public anxiety about it and anxiety among Members of the Dáil, including his own Party. I shall not dwell on this, but I repeat there is still anxiety even among his own colleagues and Party about this Bill.

With regard to the Ground Rents Act, I believe it is not working properly. The Act has been in operation for two years and, despite what the Minister's Department say 20 times the ground rent is the amount that is acceptable, whereas if a case is submitted to arbitration it can cost almost anything. I should like to ask the Minister to comment on what I have said.

Regarding probation officers, I should like to ask the Minister if he is satisfied with the numbers and whether they are adequate to meet the needs. There are three vacancies for probation officers in Dublin and I should like to ask when these will be filled. On the question of courts, the Minister will agree that it takes much too long to litigate cases. Can something be done about this problem, which concerns so many people? We speak about modernising proceedings. I saw where last week in the courts a child was asked to give evidence and the judge and counsel removed their wigs. Could they not remove them permanently? More than children are overawed and frightened by those wigs which are worn in court.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

There are just a few comments I wish to make in regard to certain subheads in this Estimate. First, I think it is important that public representatives should avail themselves of every suitable opportunity to make the public in this country aware of how fortunate we are with our police force. Our Garda Síochána have, since their foundation, maintained an outstanding record of public service. At the present time, when attention has been focussed in many parts of the world on police forces—and we find that even within the past few days attention has been drawn to the Commission of Inquiry in the United States on the rioting in Chicago on the occasion of the Democratic Convention— we have had incidents in Northern Ireland and there have been comments on the police force in London during recent demonstrations there. But it is not sufficiently realised that our police force have been confronted with situations in recent years—situations which, of course, were by no means as grave as those to which I referred but nevertheless which could have been dangerous and could have led to serious trouble. However, because the Garda handled those situations in a tactful, firm manner, what might otherwise have been ugly situations were averted. It is important that the public realise how fortunate we in this country are with our police force.

The present recruits coming into the Garda Síochána, and the younger members of the force, are maintaining the high standards and the great tradition that have been set by the men who founded the force. It is important that every effort should be made to ensure that our gardaí should be as efficient and effective as possible and that no effort should be spared in making pay and conditions of service as attractive and as good as possible.

A point has been made by other Deputies, particularly by Deputy de Valera, on the importance of ensuring that we have a contented police force, and that one of the ways of doing that was to ensure that the pay, living conditions and conditions of service should be as attractive as possible. Unfortunately, there are certain, legitimate grievances which the Garda have had for quite a long time. The condition of some of the Garda barracks in this country is atrocious, and I am ashamed to say that in the city of Limerick we have a building, William Street station, which is the main Garda station, which is a disgrace. It was condemned years ago as being unfit for human habitation. Various efforts have been made to find an alternative site on which to erect a new station and I urge on the Minister the importance of proceeding with the erection of a proper Garda station in Limerick. I have been in the William Street barracks on numerous occasions and have been horrified to see the atrocious conditions under which members of the force have to work in that dilapidated building. It creates a bad impression and is not conductive to high morale, and psychologically, from every point of view, it is bad. I cannot see any reason why in the third city in this State a proper Garda barracks cannot be established.

I and other colleagues from Limerick have been asking questions about this problem. I see no reason why a suitable site in a suitable location cannot be obtained, and I hope when the Minister is replying to the debate he will make some reference to this. We in Limerick are ashamed of the situation which exists. I have already paid a tribute to the gardaí for the high standard they are maintaining. When one looks at the awful conditions under which they have to operate in Limerick city and the dilapidated and antiquated condition of the building, one is amazed at the high standard of efficiency which the members of the force in Limerick reach.

There is a situation in some rural Garda stations where the condition of the buildings and in particular the living conditions are very bad. For the past three years I have been making representations consistently to have bathroom and toilet facilities installed in a Garda station in Hospital, County Limerick and there is as yet no sign of this being done. I have made representations on numerous occasions in this matter. The Sergeant and his wife and young family are residing in this barracks. It is a disgraceful state of affairs that in the year 1968 no proper sanitary services have been provided in this case. It is a shocking thing that members of the Garda Siochána should be expected to operate efficiently when their living conditions are completely antiquated.

There has been a good deal of comment in recent months about the intention of the Minister and his Department in relation to the smaller Garda stations in rural Ireland. Rumours have been circulating to the effect that it is the intention to close down certain Garda stations. I suppose this is in keeping with the policy of Fianna Fáil and an unfortunate consequence of the failure of the Government to maintain the population in rural Ireland. We had the Minister for Education a short time ago talking about the amalgamation of schools. Now we are confronted with the problem of the closure of Garda stations.

It has been intimated to me that it is proposed to close down Garda barracks in two or three areas in my constituency. I had a question down about this matter in recent months. Other Deputies have also been asking questions about it. I understand that no firm decision has yet been taken. I would ask the Minister to indicate what his intentions are in relation to this very important matter. It may be argued and presumably it is being argued that, with greater mobility patrol cars can cover areas formerly served by Gardaí on bicycles or on foot and that a mobile force operating from a central area can cover a much wider area.

Personally, I should hate to see the situations arising where the smaller country Garda barracks would be closed. The best tribute that could be paid to the Garda Síochána is that in three villages, where rumour had it that Garda barracks were about to be closed, the people in the villages and surrounding areas were so perturbed that they pleaded with me to make the strongest possible representations to the Minister that the barracks should be kept open. In one of the areas concerned there is only one Garda station now and one or two business men and others have pressed me very strongly in recent months to fight for the retention of the barracks.

The fact that a garda resides in a village is a great deterrent to crime. His presence there and the fact that he has become integrated with the local community is the best deterrent against petty crime or other offences. I hope the Minister does not intend to effect any drastic closure of the smaller Garda barracks.

I want to pay particular tribute to the members of the Garda Síochána, with whom, of course, I include the Ban Gharda. The establishment of a female section of the force was an excellent idea. The Ban Gharda have justified their existence. It might be appropriate at this stage to review the position in order to ascertain whether or not there is a case for increasing the number of Ban Gharda in the force. Certainly, so far as Limerick city is concerned, the people have paid tribute, both privately and publicly, to the efficiency of the Ban Ghardaí stationed there. I should like to go on record as saying that we are very fortunate in the police force that we have in this country and I sincerely hope that the Minister will do everything possible to ensure that their pay, conditions, living quarters, and so on, will leave nothing to be desired.

Every Deputy who has taken part in this debate has referred to delays in the Land Registry in the registration of deeds. My experience is no different from that of any other Deputy in the sense that scarcely a week goes by without my having a request from a member of the legal profession or a constituent for my intervention with a view to the expedition of registration of certain deeds. I am not familiar with the legal process in the Land Registry but I must say that my representations have always been received there with the utmost courtesy and, particularly when the case justified it, the registration has been expedited. I think it was Deputy Cunningham who referred to the fact that very often when one goes to the Land Registry in Chancery Street at the request of a constituent one finds that the necessary document has not been lodged by the solicitor acting for the client. Be that as it may, and despite the fact that my experience of Chancery Street has been good and that efforts have always been made to meet the case I presented, I do feel that there is need for increasing the staff, that is, if it is a staffing problem and I understand it is, that there is need to reorganise the whole operation there with a view to having more efficient machinery to deal with the whole question of the registration of deeds.

I am personally interested in the problem of juvenile delinquency. Other Deputies have referred to this matter and particularly to St. Patrick's Institution in Dublin for juvenile offenders. I was very interested to find a new development in this field when I had occasion to visit Shanganagh Castle. I think I am right in saying this is a country mansion with an estate of some 20 or 30 acres out at Foxrock, which was acquired by the Department of Justice for use as a remand home. I had occasion to go out there to visit a constituent who unfortunately landed himself in trouble, and I was most impressed by the system which is in operation there. I was facilitated in every possible way by the officer in charge. Both he and members of his staff showed me right through the building and gave me full information on the operation of the system. This might well be a model for future development in this country. About 20 or 30 young chaps are getting an opportunity to rehabilitate themselves there so that they will be able to take up their places as useful members of society. They have the opportunity of attending classroom instruction as well as practical instruction in various trades. I was very pleased to see this in practice and I sincerely hope that this is but the start of an entirely new approach to the problem of unfortunate young people who find themselves in trouble, particularly where there has been no background of delinquency.

What I have said in relation to the new development at Shanganagh Castle might be related to the whole approach to the prison service. I have had occasion, as have most other Deputies, to visit various prisons in this country to discharge one of the corporal works of mercy, and whilst I am not old enough to make a categorical statement on this point, I do feel that a tremendous change has come over the prison service. In Mountjoy, Portlaoise and Limerick, to name three prisons which I have had occasion to visit, the aim is rehabilitation. I am convinced that this policy is one which will pay very big dividends.

The system whereby certain categories of prisoners are allowed out during the day time in the latter stages of their term of imprisonment is a very good idea. Where a person has been committed to prison for a long period, when that term of imprisonment is up and the door is opened and he is thrown into the outside world, he has not merely the psychological problems of readjustment but very often a practical problem in the matter of securing suitable employment.

I am glad to say that there are many enlightened employers who are prepared, and have given evidence on a number of occasions of their desire, to assist in rehabilitating such people. I have seen examples of where enlightened employers, motivated by Christian charity, have given a chance to people who have served a term of imprisonment, and in most cases the trust placed by the employer in these people has been justified. I hope the aim will be to continue, if possible, to accelerate the progress being made in this whole matter of trying to rehabilitate the people who are unfortunate enough to fall foul of the law and find they have to serve a term of imprisonment.

One final point I want to make—I do not know whether I am in order or out of order, but I am sure, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle you will guide me on it—is on the question of drug taking. There has been a lot of concern generated—how much of it is justified I am not in a position to say—about the question of drug taking and about a traffic in drugs in this country. A great deal of publicity has been given to this, and, as a Deputy representing an urban constituency, I am aware of the concern on the part of many parents for quite a considerable time past in relation to the problem.

I welcome the recent announcement by the Minister of the establishment of a special commission of inquiry into this matter. It is a very serious and horrifying problem. The establishment of this commission of inquiry is a good thing. Certain criticism has been levelied at one newspaper, the Evening Herald, and allegations have been made that this paper was exaggerating the problem. I want to be put on record as saying that this newspaper has performed a very useful service. The fact that the Minister has now taken action in the matter will be welcomed by very many people. I sincerely hope, and I am sure every Deputy would likewise hope, that following the Minister's investigation into the problem it will be revealed it is not of very great magnitude. However, if there is evidence of any large-scale or any increasing interest in drug taking and in the traffic in drugs, I hope the Minister will take appropriate action, and I think I am right in saying he can be assured of the full support of all Parties in this House.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister made a very comprehensive statement in introducing his Estimate and therefore the burden on us of referring to matters is considerably lessened. I have heard with sympathy what Deputy O'Donnell had to say on the subject of drug taking. Perhaps what I am going to say is unpopular, but I propose to say it all the same. I do not believe the Minister for Justice can reasonably call on this House to discharge the duty that devolves on every parent to look after his own children. The Minister for Justice has a very grave duty, which I hope he will discharge, and that is that if there is brought to his notice the arrival in this country of drug pushers, namely, people who sell drugs or try to persuade juveniles to buy drugs, they will be mercilessly dealt with by the law.

But there is no use in parents laying the soothing unction to their souls that they can shuffle off on the shoulders of the Minister for Justice or the Government the obligation to look after their own children which they undertook when they brought them into the world. Looking after your own children involves not only love and affection but a recognition that they must be taught, in the years when they are under parental care, the disciplines requisite to live a decent life. Let us make it as clear as we can make it from our experience as administrators that there is no substitute available either in Dáil Éireann or in the Executive Government for parental care. I should like to hear—I think it would be useful— from the Minister a declaration that, in so far as the evil exists, the full rigour of the law will be invoked against those who seek to make a profit out of the demoralisation of the young.

I am glad to have this occasion to say that I congratulate the Minister on the institution of traffic wardens. The removal of the constant conflict between members of the Garda and the motoring public is a most admirable development. I have read repeated comments relating to the British police force on how intolerable a burden that conflict is becoming in Britain and how it gives rise to misunderstanding and antagonism between the ordinary people and the police when ordinary people get it into their heads that they are being unreasonably harried for parking offences.

I find the traffic wardens to be responsible and sensible, mostly elderly men, controlling the activities of the irregular parker with reasonable prudence and diligence. I think that already the removal of this responsibility from members of the Garda is yielding dividends in reducing the occasions of conflict between members of the Garda and ordinary, normally law-abiding citizens who are involved in minor traffic offences which cannot be regarded in the ordinary way as breaches of the law.

There is a forgotten microscopic population of the country which is constantly present to my mind and I am in a perennial dilemma in trying to bring it before the House. It is tiny groups of children in Marlborough House. We have the fantastic set-up that there is one quasi-penal institute in the country which, for some extraordinary reason, remains under the administrative control of the Minister for Education but the children in it are the responsibility of the Minister for Justice. I was not able to find out, not even when I was a Member of the Government, why this extraordinary dichotomy of responsibility is allowed to continue but inasmuch as the children on remand are the responsibility of the Minister for Justice I ask him to approach his colleague, the Minister for Education, and ask him how in conscience can he continue to allow children committed to his care by the Minister for Justice on remand to continue in the state they are in in Marlborough House.

I began this campaign 30 years ago when these children were in an old barred house in Summerhill and the present President, Mr. de Valera was acting as Minister for Education. I remember describing to him the conditions at Summerhill and inveighing against them as being intolerable and I remember him saying: "I will go down to Summerhill". I think he did go there but to my amazement and alarm, the only result of his journey was for him to say: "If one of my children went wrong I should not be a bit unhappy if they were brought down to Summerhill". Of course, he was a man of very austere standards. However, after a protracted battle, I think it was the late Deputy Derrig I eventually prevailed on to close up Summerhill and we removed the children to Marlborough House.

I thought a new day had dawned but I am told that in Marlborough House still the children are all sitting down in a large room. I believe the Superintendent is an excellent man. I do not suppose he has any special qualifications for dealing with children. There is no entertainment, no instruction and no provision for them. I think they are allowed out to Mass on Sunday but there was a time in Summerhill when they would not be allowed out to Mass on Sunday. I doubt if they have any facilities for confessions or receiving Holy Communion while there. This is one of these crazy oversights. This institution should be under the control of the Minister for Justice. I suspect it is regarded in Marlborough Street as a sort of unreasonable imposition in which nobody is taking any interest. It is not an educational establishment and yet it does not come within the purview of the officers of the Department of Justice who would ordinarily draw the Minister's attention to the situation if they felt it did not measure up to standards ordinarily required.

All I am asking is that where children are on remand or in transit from one industrial school to another—there are never more than 30 or 40 of them in the place but their ages range from three or four up to 16—these children should be looked after and, even if it is manifestly uneconomic, some instruction of an occupational or educational kind should be provided for them without regard to the economics of the operation. Secondly, I ask that, while they are in that detention home on remand from one children's court to the next, a child psychiatrist should be retained who would prepare a report on the child's psychiatric condition and on the family background which would constitute part of the material laid before the district justice in the children's court when he or she—I believe it is a lady at present—is called upon finally to dispose of the child.

I do not know if the Minister had occasion since taking office to visit Marlborough House, and I suppose there is a certain amount of delicacy about his visiting an institution that is the responsibility of the Minister for Education, but I am quite satisfied that if the Minister for Justice went down there and took the Minister for Education with him they would find nothing scandalous and nothing that they need be ashamed of. But they would find a condition which is manifestly below the standard which ought to obtain. There is not a large number of children involved but this is something which has always troubled me and it still troubles me, although I imagine that conditions are now considerably better than when the matter was first brought to my attention regarding the old establishment in Summerhill.

I know of the intention of the Department of Justice to reduce the numbers of the Garda Síochána. I know from the Minister's introductory remarks that he is doing this with due regard to the incidence of crime. I believe that the reason we have such a low incidence of crime in rural Ireland is because of the presence of the Garda Síochána. Where there is a Garda station in a rural area the gardaí become not only the protectors but also the friends of the people. It is a most interesting thing that when a minor offence, such as housebreaking, is committed in a rural area, the gardaí will be on the track of the offender. They will say: "That is Tommy McGann at it again, you would know his track". Because of this familarity with the neighbours, the gardaí are able to nip crime in the bud in the area in which they live. They turn the whole community into an auxiliary police force because the general feeling is that, if one goes to the sergeant and tells him who the miscreant probably is, the information is not received with detached vindictiveness. The sergeant is known to be a friendly and a reasonably prudent man and he will act in a reasonable and prudent way.

If the gardaí are taken away and cases of petty offences are left to itinerant police patrols from relatively remote centres, there is a great danger, particularly in rural Ireland, of the local community becoming a closed unit against the gardaí to shelter their neighbours from the gardaí. That is a way of building up crime in rural Ireland. There is no need for me to labour that point to the Minister for Justice who, I think, has spent most of his life in a community similar to that with which the rest of us who represent rural constituencies are familiar. I would therefore urge the Minister not to consider the general closing down of Garda stations in rural Ireland because the gardaí are the bulwark of the admirable record we have of the absence of serious crime in our community.

Another thing which the Minister is familiar with and which, I think, he is endeavouring to remedy is the problem that exists in relation to the Registry of Titles and Deeds, or is it the Register of Titles or Deeds?

Mr. Moran

It is the Land Registry.

Mr. Dillon

In my experience, whenever I had a particular problem I received nothing but courtesy and help in the Land Registry, but infrequently I have had the same experience as that mentioned by Deputy O'Donnell as regards delay. I discovered that the delay is not in the Land Registry but in the solicitor's office. Undoubtedly, there is delay and undue delay in the Land Registry. It is not necessary for me to press that view to the Minister who is himself a solicitor because he must have heard this story repeatedly from his own colleagues in the profession. I gather that the problem is one of recruiting staff. I do not know what particular expertise is required in the Department; perhaps the Minister will help me.

Mr. Moran

The problem is mainly in the cartography section but I am taking steps to remedy this.

Mr. Dillon

If it were the case of young solicitors they could be got more readily by raising their salaries. However, the matter is one of urgency and I need hardly tell the Minister for Justice that the Registry is made the alibi for any number of solicitors who have allowed dust to collect on their files.

Mr. Moran

Hear, hear.

Mr. Dillon

Let us distribute the blame as equitably as we may. That fact, notwithstanding, I think the Minister knows as well as I do that there is undue delay in the Registry for the reasons he has mentioned and I am glad that he is doing what he can to right it.

I wish to ask about something that is approaching a scandal and that is the matter of paying jurors. The number of people required to do jury service is certainly shrinking but the numbers of people in the categories who are exempted from doing jury service are growing and the burden of the rest who have to do jury service is growing proportionally. The people who are called for jury service, particulary those who work for wages or who are self-employed people in a small business, are bearing an intolerable burden.

I regard jury service as a very valuable element in our whole judicial system. I am gravely apprehensive that the Minister, conscious of the problem I am now mentioning, may be swayed in his judgment unduly to reduce the occasions for jury trial. I know there is a very strong agitation to eliminate juries altogether in civil actions. I hope the Minister will not be unduly swayed in any legislation he may have in contemplation to that end by the fact that the burden of jury service tends to become more onerous on the restricted number of people who are liable to it.

I take the view strongly that where one litigant asks for a jury he should have the right to get it and that a judicial decision should not be substituted for a jury decision unless both litigants indicate their readiness to accept that procedure. If the Minister can persuade the Minister for Finance to provide not only an adequate but I think a rewarding fee for jury service, he will find that the burden on the Exchequer will be relatively insignificant but that a very great hardship will be abated and that people, instead of regarding jury service as an appalling catastrophe, may come to accept it as all in the day's work and, in certain cases, a welcome respite reasonably and adequately remunerated.

I heard with interest from Deputy O'Donnell that he has been out in Shanganagh Castle. Is that to be the new Borstal?

Mr. Moran

Yes. The new Saint Patrick's.

Mr. Dillon

There used to be a Borstal at Clonmel. Our Government did that. We transferred it to Mountjoy which I think was a great mistake. We did it in a mistaken desire to bring the young delinquents within visitation reach of their parents. Is it to close down?

Mr. Moran

The intention about Shanganagh was that we would more or less separate the wheat from the chaff. We would separate the young boys who we felt showed the best chances of rehabilitation from the hardened chaps and send them to Shanganagh.

Mr. Dillon

Many people get sentimental about Borstal—"harmless youths", "shameful to lock them up", and so on. Some of these youths are not so harmless at all. They are very tough operators. I think the Minister is wise, in some measure, to segregate them in so far as he can. The inter-Party Government moved the Borstal from Clonmel and accommodated it in a premises immediately adjoining Mountjoy Jail. The reason was that experience proved that the bulk of the inmates of the Borstal came from in or around Dublin. It was thought to be a humanitarian gesture to locate them in a centre where they would not be completely cut off from their parents and it would be possible for their parents to visit them regularly and maintain the family connection. In retrospect, I think that was a mistake. I think it would have been better to maintain the institution in Clonmel until we could find premises such as Shanganagh Castle, near Dublin, where a suitable institution could be established quite divorced from the prison cell. Every Government makes mistakes and, in that matter, I think we made a mistake.

In starting at Shanganagh, I think the Minister is right in shifting, as he says himself, the readily redeemable elements who are finding their way into Saint Patrick's and segregating them from the hard chaws, if I may use the word. But let us not forget the hard chaws. I should not like to see them left—perhaps a dozen of them, really difficult and quite formidable adolescents—virtually in Mountjoy. If we are to adopt the segregation policy suggested by the Minister, and for which I see great force, I think there is an immense additional responsibility on him to show a very special solicitude and anxiety for the hard chaws that are left there if they are not to be turned, in their adolescence, into potential recidivists in jail. Handling the adolescent misdemeanant is an extremely difficult job; I would utter a word of caution. If we segregate them, in the euphoria of redeeming the redeemable, let us not forget the very special obligations which devolve upon us in respect of the residue who are still our neighbour's children and, however difficult, are still entitled to our special solicitude.

Is the Minister satisfied about the establishment at Daingean? I do not want to suggest to the House that I am dissatisfied. We have Marlborough House. We have industrial schools. A child cannot be committed now, I think, to an industrial school. There used to be a system under the School Attendance Act by which children were sent to industrial schools by the courts: I think that is ended. There is Daingean and then there is what we call Saint Patrick's—what we used to call the Borstal. Are we satisfied that Daingean provides all the amenities for the rehabilitation of the youths who are sent there? Can the Minister assure the House that he has visited that institution and is satisfied that they have at their disposal there all the facilities they need to carry out the very difficult job they have to perform? If the Minister can give that assurance, I should be prepared to rest upon it. I shall apply to his Department shortly for permission to visit some of these institution myself, which I have not done for a great many years. I did so at one time in order to know what was going on in the establishment that was there before Daingean was established. In fact, I think I was in some measure responsible for having the reformatory transferred from Glencree to Daingean. I visited Summerhill, as I say, and all the prisons. That was some time ago but I take it that, if I desire today to visit these places again in a responsible way, facilities will be available to me. Ad interim, I do not want to suggest that I have any reason to complain but I would be glad if the Minister would say to us that he has had time to visit Daingean and is satisfied that the priests who are responsible there have at their disposal all the facilities they consider necessary for its proper administration.

Mr. Geoghegan

There are just a few brief points I should like to make.

Mr. Dillon

As Béarla. Mo náire thú.

Mr. Moran

Ciúnas, más é do thoil é.

Mr. Geoghegan

Tá mé ag ceapadh, fé mar adubhairt an Teachta Dillon, go mbeadh sé i bhfadh nios fearr na stáisiúin Gharda a fhágáil oscailte. Ní dheineann an "squad car" an obair chomh maith leis an gharda féin mar bíonn an gluaisteán amuigh faoin tír i rith an lae agus go díreach ag an am is mó a bhíonn sé ag teastáil. Bíonn an garda ann ó mhaidin go hoíche ach ní bhíonn an gluaisteán ann. An t-am is mó a bhíonn gá leis an ghluaisteán agus na gardaí b'fhéidir go mbíonn an gluaisteán ós cionn scór míle ón áit ina mbíonn gá leis. Tá an gluaisteán níos costasúla ná garda amháin a fhágáil sa bhearaic, go mór mhór más bearaic roint nua atá ann.

Naoi mí ó shoin bhí caint faoi bhearaic im Dháilcheantar féin nach bhfuil ann faoi láthair na huaire nó le cheithre nó chúig bhliain anuas ach garda amháin. Dá mba shean-bhearaic é b'fhéidir go gcaithfí é a leagad.

Anois agus arís—níl a fhios agam cé acu tá sé ceart nó nach bhfuil—cloistear cuid de na gardaí ag clamhsán faoi dhuine nach bhfuil chúig bhliain sa bhFórsa ach a gheibheann aistriú ó stáisiún éigin go dtí stáisiún níos fearr. Má tá tada mar sin i gceist is ceart an scéal a réiteach de réir sinsireachta.

Do bheadh sé níos fearr garda amháin a fhágáil sa bheairic. An mbeadh an tAire i ndán a fháil amach le haghaidh na bliana seo cugainn— agus beidh an tAire céana ar an dtaobh seo, bígí cinte dhe—costas gluaisteáin amháin, na beairicí a bheadh sé i ndhán freastal orthu nó an mbeadh sé sin níos fearr, níos saoire, fear amháin a fhágáil sa bheairic? Táim cinnte go dtiocfaidh an Teachta Dillon isteach liom chum cheist a chur ar an Aire agus é ag tabhairt freagra ar an gcéad Mheastachán eile.

Mr. James Tully

Níl sé ach fiche noiméad tar éis a dó. Tá deich nóiméad fágtha ag an Teachta.

Mr. L'Estrange

Take in the core works.

Mr. Geoghegan

Listening to some speakers on the opposite side——

Mr. Dillon

Go bhfóiridh Dia orainn. Mo náire thú.

Mr. Geoghegan

I should like to begin with a few remarks on certain matters that concern my constituency. First, I should like to refer to Garda stations in country districts. The time has come when there should be running water, bathrooms, showerbaths and all the rest, for men after they come in from duty, be they small or large stations. Some of these stations are old and worn out, with uneven concrete floors, et cetera. There are in the cities and larger towns a number of young gardaí who get married early in life and in Galway, particularly, they find it next to impossible to get flats. Because of their low income, they are reluctant to get themselves involved in the large sums of money necessary to provide them with new houses. Some of them may be only a few months, or at most two or three years, in the stations before they are transferred unless they are lucky enough to climb the ranks.

I am sure the Minister appreciates the amounts such gardaí have to pay for flats in cities like Galway. The Department contemplated the building of some houses for them and I urge the Minister to see that they are built, particularly in a seaside resort like Galway.

From time to time we hear discussions and little cribs among the personnel in the Garda. I suggest there should be a seniority list drawn up among the members of the Force. For instance, there may be a garda who has served ten, 15 or 20 years in a country station. He may see a younger man transferred to a city and he may wonder why he, during his long years of service, did not get such a chance. Perhaps he may be a married man with a family who would like to go to a city where he would have better educational facilities for his children. In such cases, a seniority list would be of great value.

Deputy Dillon spoke about the Land Registry, about delays in registration. I agree with him and I ask the Minister to see if there is anything he can do to have the registration of deeds expedited. I know it is a long and tedious job.

It has been found necessary, apparently, to close a number of Garda stations in country areas and I often wonder if it is sensible or right to do so. The people in those areas nowadays look up to the Garda stations in their areas. In the past they thought policemen were just put there to prosecute them but they are finding nowadays that the gardaí are their friends and protectors, particularly since housebreaking has become so prevalent throughout the country. Therefore, if there was only one man in a station, it would be much better to keep the station there. I know such areas are covered by squad cars but one such car has to cover from five to nine Garda station areas. I do not think such a system gives adequate coverage and I suggest that if the Minister went into the matter he would find that even one man in a station would work out cheaper in the long run and give a better service than a squad car.

Mr. L'Estrange

One man in the gap is good at times.

Mr. Geoghegan

Fianna Fáil generally have more than one in the gap. If the Minister goes into the cost of the new car, the question of wear and tear—tyres, petrol and so forth—I think he will find that a Garda station with one man would work out cheaper. There might be a serious accident in an area and the squad car might be in some other part of the district and it might be hours before it could reach the scene. The squad car might get a breakdown. I suggest that the Minister would be doing a good day's work if, by this time next year—let there be no doubt about it, he will be here this time next year as Minister for Justice —he had considered this matter.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.