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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 13 Feb 1969

Vol. 238 No. 7

Curragh of Kildare Bill, 1968: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of the Bill is to amend and extend the Curragh of Kildare Act, 1961, to provide effective control over the grazing of sheep on the Curragh lands, which are State property.

The grazing rights on the Curragh derive from grants of certain lands surrounding the Curragh which were made after the dissolution of the monastic institutions in Ireland and which included a right of commonage over the Curragh. Under the Curragh of Kildare Act, 1868, three Commissioners were constituted to ascertain, among other things, what, if any, rights of common of pasture existed on the Curragh. The Commissioners made their award in 1869 and it is embodied in and confirmed by the Curragh of Kildare Act, 1870. The award set forth that the Curragh should not be grazed by any animals except sheep; it listed the persons whose claims to rights of common of pasture were allowed, and it set out the number of sheep which each such person was entitled to graze. The persons whose claims were allowed were either owners, lessees, tenants or occupiers of certain specified lands adjoining the Curragh, and the grazing rights are appurtenant to the specified lands. The successors in title to these persons now hold the grazing rights. Prior to the enactment of the 1961 Act, the total number of sheep for which grazing rights on the Curragh existed was 7,957. Pursuant to the provisions of the 1961 Act, the enclosure by the Racing Board of the area of the Curragh Racecourse — about 816 statute acres—was authorised after the Board had arranged for the extinguishment of 1,432 sheep grazing rights and the non-exercise of 307 rights. A further small number of grazing rights was extinguished in connection with the sale of about two acres of the Curragh and the lease of a site for school building. The total number of sheep for which grazing rights now exist is 6,212 but it is reported that the number of sheep actually grazing there at various times is far in excess of this figure.

Pursuant to section 16 of the 1961 Act, the Curragh Bye-laws, 1964— Statutory Instrument No. 7 of 1964— were made so that the entry of sheep to the Curragh could be controlled and that only those persons entitled to the grazing rights should put or keep sheep on the lands.

The head bailiff at the Curragh reported early in 1964 that a number of sheep-owners had placed sheep on the Curragh lands without having them branded with the official brand and had failed to comply with his instructions regarding the proper procedure to be followed. Communications were addressed by my Department to the sheep-owners concerned in May, 1964, drawing their attention to the appropriate provisions of the bye-laws and requesting them to arrange to have their sheep branded with the official brand or, alternatively, to have them removed from the lands immediately. The sheep-owners concerned did not comply with the requirements of the head bailiff or of my Department and, in the circumstances, legal proceedings were instituted against a number of them. At the District Court, Droichead Nua, in February, 1965, the justice convicted certain persons for contravening the bye-laws and imposed fines. Appeals were lodged by the defendants and, in May, 1965, the circuit court judge at Naas Circuit Court allowed the appeals.

Following the review of the results of the 1965 court proceedings by the Attorney General, it is now considered that the 1961 Act should be amended on the lines set out in the Curragh of Kildare Bill, 1968. The important parts of this Bill are sections 2 and 3, which will put on the Statute Book provisions which, up to now, had only the status of bye-laws, and section 4 which will enable more effective action to be taken to deal with contraventions of the law. It is vital for the effective control of sheep-grazing on the Curragh and for ensuring that only those persons entitled to do so shall keep or graze sheep on the lands that legal proceedings instituted against persons contravening the law should be successful. I am assured that the Bill will, on enactment, achieve this result and I recommend it for the approval of the House.

As I understand the position, this Bill is introduced by the Minister to rectify what I might perhaps rudely term a botch in the 1961 Act. My only comment in regard to that is that it is a good thing it is being rectified and a very bad and unfair thing for those concerned that it has taken so long for the rectification to reach this House. The 1961 Act was enacted by the Oireachtas after there had been some discussions not merely between the then Minister for Defence, Deputy Kevin Boland, with the racecourse authorities but also with the Deputies for the constituency and it now appears that the 1961 Act did not carry out the assurances given to the Deputies and later to the House by the Minister concerned.

The Minister in introducing this Bill has given us some history of the Curragh itself. It is desirable that perhaps one might fill in a little bit both in relation to history and in relation to the factual position so that one may see the Bill with its complete background. As I understand it, and perhaps as the Minister indicates to some degree, the Curragh plain was an unenclosed common as far back as there is any record anywhere. Indeed, at one time it extended as far as the River Liffey and was gradually reduced by encroachment from all sides. This is borne out by the names of townlands along the borders such as Pollardstown, Crotanstown, Maddenstown, Brownstown and Walshtown, all of which are known to anybody with any knowledge of that part of Kildare.

After the Act of 1870 the Curragh contained some 4,885 acres. That sounds a great deal of land and I think the size is emphasised even more when one recollects that the perimeter of the Curragh is about 15 miles in all. As everybody knows, the Curragh extends to a large area on both sides of the Droichead Nua-Kildare Road, which is the main road to the south and west. In our memory, the Curragh has been utilised in three different ways—as a military camp, a racecourse and for grazing. These three ways were partly accepted in the 1961 Act. The present military camp is situated on the rise known as Long Hill. I think I am right in saying that it was originally selected as a temporary instructional camp in 1854 on the outbreak of the Crimean War. It then became a permanent training centre and was, of course, the biggest British military station in Ireland. The permanent barracks was built towards the close of the century, together with the water tower, which stands out as a landmark. It was taken over by us on 16th May, 1922, and, since then, it has been our main army training centre. It has played a vital role in the development of our army.

In the 1961 Act and in this Bill, because this will be construed with the 1961 Act, the camp lands are specifically mentioned. They are called the Brown Lands on the map deposited under the Act of 1870. This camp section of the Curragh is under the exclusive jurisdiction of the military and there is no suggestion of changing that exclusive jurisdiction in any way. I suppose the camp was originally sited there because of the vast expanse of the plain; it was ideal as a training ground for cavalry. Cavalry have long since disappeared and, though an army must have tanks and other tracked vehicles, the huge sweep originally required for cavalry manoeuvres is no longer necessary. I have heard some suggestions — perhaps the Minister would look into them—that some of the better grazing land is being used for tracked vehicle exercises for training purposes when, in fact, some of the bad land would be equally suitable. I am not in a position to offer any comment as to the extent of the sweep of land needed for what might be described as the modern cavalry— tanks and tracked vehicles—since that is obviously something in regard to which one would need to know a great deal about modern military instructional methods. The suggestion has been made by those interested in the grazing that it is odd that these tracked vehicles should confine their operations to the better grazing land instead of using land that is not so good and land that will literally produce nothing at all. This is a side issue but it is something I should like the Minister to examine to see if the land could be utilised for training purposes without, at the same time, doing any more damage than is necessary.

There are also the Blue Lands which are used as a rifle range. They must continue to be so used for army training purposes. Everybody understands that. Apart from the Blue Lands, prior to 1961 all the rest of the land on the Curragh was designated as grazing lands; they are the Green Lands marked on the map. That was the position until 1961. Up to that time it was not possible to enclose any part of the Curragh for racecourse purposes or even for improving the gallops for the very, very substantial horse industry centred round the Curragh. It is not necessary for a Deputy from Kildare to come in here and stress the very substantial effect on employment, exports and our balance of payments, plus the ensuring of tourist amenities, that the horse breeding industry carries. The Curragh is the centre of the horse breeding industry and the arrangements made by the Racing Board to ensure they would be able to enclose part of the Curragh in order to improve the lands, the racecourse or the gallops, without doing injury to those entitled to grazing rights, were very welcome indeed.

I do not quite understand what the Minister means by the phrase, "non-exercise of 307 sheep grazing rights". I understand that the arrangements in relation to the enclosure of the racecourse were specifically based on extinguishment of rights. In this respect the Minister has mentioned the extinguishment of 1,432 rights at the time of about 800 acres being enclosed for the purpose of the racecourse and for the purpose of improving the gallops. Indeed, it is a matter of some curiosity to me that this non-exercise could be taken into account having regard to the provision of section 11 (3) (a) of the 1961 Act. No doubt, either now or on Committee Stage, the Minister will be able to give me some elucidation of that.

I do not think it would have been possible to have improved the Curragh racecourse buildings as such and to have accommodated the very great crowds that go there on the day of the Hospitals' Sweep Derby and other similar days, unless it was also found possible at the same time to enclose and improve the race track. Certainly, without that improvement, we would not have got famous horses here from other countries, and it would not have been possible to make the Hospitals Sweeps' Derby one of the half-dozen outstanding races in the world. The Racing Board are to be congratulated on the work they have done in this respect. The work they have done towards the improvement of the course has brought greater prospects for competition by good horses which, in turn, has brought greater crowds to the meetings. This, in turn, has given the Racing Board greater funds with which to improve the course and, indeed, to improve not merely the facilities for racegoers at the Curragh but for racegoers everywhere else, while at the same time ensuring that there will be an inducement to improve the horse breeding industry by making available greater stakes for race meetings all over the country.

Those of us who were having discussions at that time will remember— and I am sure it is in the Minister's brief although he has not engaged in the discussions—that one of the things that was worrying everyone was the bad appearance of parts of the Curragh and the lack of its adequate use for agricultural purposes. At that time, the Racing Board gave an undertaking that they would improve the look of the part of the Curragh that was to be enclosed. It gives me great pleasure to be able to utilise this occasion to acknowledge that the undertaking has been fulfilled. The part that was enclosed has been cleared of furze and the gallops and the racecourse were improved by liming and manuring. Anyone going there at present can see that, in addition to that job having been done when it was necessary that it should first be done, there is also a limited planting programme for amenity and scenic purposes. This meant cutting off a certain part of the Curragh and, notwithstanding the fact that that part has been cut off, a large part of the Curragh is still used for horse training purposes. The gallops are tended and minded by the Racing Board. The owners who train and exercise horses on the Curragh are bound to pay substantial fees to the Racing Board to mind and improve those gallops. The more the gallops are improved The more there will be for grazing purposes, and the less damage will be done to grazing elsewhere.

It should be put on record that, so far as we are concerned, and so far as I as a Kildare Deputy am concerned, we regard the horse racing and horse breeding industry in that part of the country as being of vital importance both for employment and for providing an appropriate tourist amenity and, indeed, an amenity for our own people. Anything that can be done to ensure that racing on the Curragh is the headquarters of racing throughout the country as a whole should be done.

When I was down in the country quite recently, a friend of mine who is a very well-known trainer indeed, one of our most successful trainers— obviously I will not mention his name in this House—told me that in his part of Limerick a false and malicious rumour was put around such as the one which was spread in 1957, that the Fine Gael Party were in favour of taxing racing and hitting the horse breeding industry. That rumour was put around pretty widely in 1957 about me personally. I want to take this opportunity to say it is a malicious untruth and I am sure an untruth of the kind to which the Minister would not lend himself.

I never heard it.

I had it from this a very big trainer and he told me who said it. I could identify the person if the Minister liked. I want to put it on record categorically that it is an untruth. It would be an extraordinary thing because everyone knows that the father of our present Leader, the late W.J. Cosgrave, did more for horse breeding in Ireland than any one other person, with the possible exception of a very great personal friend of his, the man who started the Irish Sweepstake. It would be unthinkable that any Party led by Deputy Liam Cosgrave would give credence even to such a suggestion. However, apart from the parts that are enclosed for the camp, the brown lands, the part of grazing lands that have to be used for rifle range practice for the Curragh, which is known as the blue lands, and the part that is now known as the enclosed lands of the Curragh, a vast area still remains and it is with the area that still remains that we are mainly concerned today. If my figures are right that the area of the Curragh prior to the Act of 1961 was somewhere about 4,885 acres and if I take the figure that has been mentioned by the Minister of about 800 acres being enclosed by the Curragh Racecourse following the extension of grazing rights then it would seem we are dealing at present with about 4,000 acres, less whatever amount the Camp itself has.

While I was talking about the racecourse part of it I meant to mention, as a matter of interest, that as far as I can see the first of the present type of racing dates from 1696 when there were two Plates of £100 each although the Curragh was known away back for chariot races and some of the people who are qualified in that line suggest that it was from the chariot racing at this great plain that the Curragh originally took its name. The Minister indicated that it became a commonage on the confiscation of monastic rights. I think the Act of 1870 in relation to grazing really arose because of some discontent at that time with the claiming of senatorial rights by the then Duke of Leinster and also with the refusal of the then military authorities to permit the use of certain roads to the public. After that time grazing on the Curragh was supposed to be restricted to those who held lands adjacent and adjoining.

The Act of 1870 following the two commissions' reports—I may say as a matter of interest there was not a single appeal against the advice of those commissions which must certainly be a unique experience — allowed the tenants of the then landlords around the right of pasturage for as many sheep as they had acres. That is how the right of grazing for the present owners of the grazing rights on the Curragh derived. As the Minister has said there was a provision that nothing except sheep could be so grazed. That, of course, is true, but there was another provision at that time which the Minister did not mention and which I am surprised he did not mention. There was also a provision in the arrangement of that time that no manure may be removed from the Curragh. It seems a bit odd at this stage that we should have such a provision when, in fact, what the Curragh needs at the present is not the removal of manure but a great deal of manuring all around.

I think I am right in saying that prior to the 1961 Act there were about 200-odd landowners who held those 7,957 claims between them. I do not know how many owners as such gave up their rights or extinguished their rights for the purpose of enabling the racecourse authorities to maintain the Curragh Racecourse and to ensure that by that enclosure others were not affected. Indeed, I think it is fair to pay tribute to those people who, without any fee or reward of any sort, voluntarily gave up their rights for the sole purpose of ensuring that the venue for racing and training horses could be improved.

Those rights that there are for the grazing of sheep on the course and also the races held there are subject to rates payable to the Kildare County Council. I cannot recollect the exact amount but I think the rating is fixed at 6d per sheep grazed. If the persons who own those grazing rights have to pay rates to the county council it is, of course, right and fair that they should have proper protection for their rights. The fact is, as the Minister has hinted—perhaps he did not go quite so far as completely to indicate this—since the passage of the 1961 Act they have not had any proper opportunity of dealing with their grazing rights. I think estimates have been made of the number of sheep that have been on the Curragh from time to time since 1961. The information given to me is that the number of sheep illegally there has exceeded by some three to one the number of sheep that should be there. Largely as the result of the ineffectual control, many of the people with rights were not able to utilise those rights. It is an acknowledged fact that people who have themselves been trying to exercise their rights by grazing their sheep as they were entitled to do found those sheep the next morning or even later that day had been deliberately driven from one side of the Curragh to the other. The Minister may shake his head.

It is undoubtedly happening. It is not being done officially, of course. It is being done because there is no proper method of control. Accordingly, the people who want to be able to utilise the Curragh as their own, use this means of chasing other people's sheep with dogs to ensure that this nice free grazing will be ready and handy to them.

One of the very definite criticisms of this Bill in that respect is that the penalties are nothing like heavy enough. Consider the penalty of a fine not exceeding £20. If you have 1,000 sheep illegally grazing on the Curragh then it is not a deterrent at all. It would be a considerable time before a prosecution came to court. The provision here of an additional fine for a continuing offence could very well be held by the court as meaning a continuing offence after the date on which the prosecution was held and not an offence that had continued for perhaps a month or two months before it was possible to make the necessary enforcement.

One would think it would be more reasonable to provide, on some basis, that the penalties in the Bill would be not for breach but for a breach per head of sheep found and proved. That would mean that there would not be an unduly heavy penalty for a small offence but that there would be a really heavy penalty for somebody who was trying to move in to take the grazing rights out of the hands of the tenants and the successors of the tenants on the surrounding lands who now own the surrounding lands, many of whom, indeed, are very small people.

Twenty pounds per head.

Not as much as that but nevertheless a more realistic figure. Deputy Tully will agree that, as a result of the machinations of the Government, of which the Minister is a distinguished light, the value of money has been going down day by day.

What about the value of a sheep?

Apart from that, control is a necessary prerequisite. It is necessary and desirable that the Government would do something towards improving the open lands on the Curragh in the same way as the Racing Board have been able to improve the lands that are enclosed. An improvement I visualise on the west of the Curragh would be one that would increase the capacity of the Curragh for grazing purposes and that would, as a result, improve the gallops for the training of racehorses outside the enclosed area.

Some people have said it from time to time and, indeed, when I was Minister for Finance I think I got a note from somebody at the time, that the land had never been used for anything except pasture. I am told that there are parts of the Curragh where first-class crops of oats were grown during the First World War. I am told, in addition, that one of the reasons grazing is so bad in parts of the Curragh is that it was not properly re-seeded and was allowed to revert into pasture. Be that as it may, it is undeniable that the fertility of some parts of the Curragh is very much higher than in other parts, that parts of it are virtually useless—much too acid. All of it, I am sure, needs a great deal of lime. An inter-Departmental committee was set up by the Minister for Agriculture in the Government of which I was a member but I have never seen the report of that committee nor do I know whether, in fact, anything was suggested or any scheme proposed for the purpose of improving the land. Such an improvement would, as I say, have the dual effect of bringing about better grazing on the one hand and better gallops for horse training on the other hand—each being able, adequately, to go hand in hand with the other.

Even more than that, perhaps, it is fair criticism of the State that here is a vast expanse of land that is Stateowned, with proper rights, and anybody passing through it can see complete evidence of neglect. The furze has been expanding steadily year by year. As far as I know, the State has never done anything to restrict the extension of the furze-covered area of the Curragh and the only attempt at eradication is what has been done in the enclosed area by the Racing Board. It is, I think, a very bad advertisement for the State and a very bad advertisement to all who pass through it that something it not being done to improve the situation there.

I should also mention that on the Brownstown site, that is, on the southerly portion of the Camp, there is a part of the Curragh that is not much used for grazing purposes. A small portion of the Curragh at that site, opposite the Brownstown road, should be made available to the local authority for the building of houses that are so badly needed in that area. It is virtually impossible, in the Kildare County Council, to get sites around about that area party because of the State farms that are located there and partly for other reasons. However, there is a portion of land there, as one goes south from the Camp itself—I am sure the Minister has often been down that road—that might be made available for the building of houses. Going through the Curragh, past the church on the left, downhill, and straight down to the edge of the Curragh and the crossroads to the road going more or less due south, the road turns to the right and brings one in by the back road to Kildare and out towards Frenchfurze. There is a part of the Curragh there that could be utilised for housing purposes without doing anybody any harm. It would do a great deal to solve the building problem of the county council. If there is a technical difficulty under the Act of 1961 it could, I think, easily be got over by the county council through the extinguishment of the appropriate number of grazing rights, in the same manner as was done by the Racing Board. It would not in any way injure the horse-training facilities or the grazing facilities if the extinguishment was done in that way. It would be easy for the council to purchase rights for extinguishment and it would have the effect of making available to the council sites for houses that are definitely needed in that area and are otherwise very difficult indeed to obtain. There is, I suppose, to some extent a precedent for that in that about two acres of the Curragh was extinguished for sale and there was a site leased for a school building. If, as was entirely proper, provision could be made for disposal of a site for school facilities, it is equally desirable that there should be provision of a similar nature for the purpose of providing houses for the people in that locality.

I would have no objection to examining that.

I am very glad to hear the Minister say that and I am sure the county council will also be very glad to hear that the Minister said it.

As I understand the Bill itself, the purpose of section 2 is to provide statutorily what it was intended to provide by means of regulation under section 16 of the Act of 1961 which gave the Minister power to do these things by regulation, by bye-law. I should like the Minister to tell the House whether I am correct in thinking that it was because those powers were taken by regulation rather than by Statute that the court decided that they did not override the provisions of the 1870 Act. If so, of course, it is entirely desirable, because there can be no control without that restriction. It is also common knowledge that the branding of sheep grazing on the Curragh is the only way of ensuring that there would be the control that is required of the numbers. I do not quite understand, however, the provisions of subsection (5) of section 3 that a person who is going to take his sheep away has to give notice. It does not seem to me so important that there would be a provision requiring notice of taking them away as a provision requiring notice of putting them in.

It is a foolish subsection.

I do not understand it at all. I could quite well understand that notice would have to be given before sheep were brought on to the Curragh because that would mean that the authorities would then be entitled to know whose sheep were there, to see to it that they were branded and to know that any sheep not so branded had been brought in illegally. However, as I understand it, I am afraid I feel, like Deputy Tully, that the subsection is a foolish one.

It is in the bye-laws also.

The bye-laws are foolish, too.

One of the reasons we are here is that the bye-laws are defective.

We are here because the court made a decision.

Because the judge said they were defective. He said the Act of 1961 was defective.

He did not say why.

The only argument that was put forward, as I understand it, was that the bye-laws were only bye-laws and were not entitled to override the old Statute. Although I agree he did not say why, it would be normal practice that, if he was going to find in favour of the person for a different reason than the reason that was argued, he would give that different reason. I think the judge at the time gave us all credit for sufficient intelligence to understand and to appreciate that, when a certain argument was put forward by the defendant and when he was finding that the defendant was right, he was finding for the defendant for that reason and not for some other reason which he kept within his own secret thoughts.

I wonder what would a higher court find if the Department went to a higher court?

I am not sure about that either. The only comment I would like to make is that people criticise regularly the law's delays but the law certainly would not have taken as long as the four years it has taken the Minister from the decision of the circuit court to bring this Bill to the House. Bad and all as the law's delays are, they are not anything like as bad as those of the Minister in this respect.

Would the Deputy mind if I tell him about the 307 Rights he asked about?

I would be grateful.

They are held by the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries and the National Stud and they gave an undertaking not to exercise those rights.

They were not permitted to extinguish them under the National Stud Act. I do not think the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, even under its present Minister, would go back on that undertaking.

I have already made reference to the provisions of section 6 which is in respect of the penalties that would be involved. I would push the Minister very strongly on the Committee Stage, without of course going as far as was suggested by Deputy Tully in an amusing aside to me that it should be £20 per sheep per day, that it should be based on the number of sheep for which there was a conviction.

They must be sheep made of gold at £20 a head.

A thousand sheep and the fee is £20.

A thousand sheep at £20. Deputy Geoghegan will no doubt be able to do the arithmetic in his head, being a sheep man, much more quickly than I could, but if you got grazing of 1,000 sheep for £20 on good land it would not be too bad, would it?

It would pay people, therefore, on this basis to break the law and none of us wants to do that.

Debate adjourned.
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