Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 20 Nov 1969

Vol. 242 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 8: Public Works and Buildings (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following Motion:

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

—(Deputy R. Barry.)

Mr. Andrews

Before I reported progress, having dealt with the national importance of the Board of Works, I then related my remarks to the local importance of the Board of Works and in particular to the constituency which I represent and mentioned particularly the harbour at Dún Laoghaire. The previous Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Gibbons, honoured us with a visit some time before he was elevated —I should like to take this opportunity of congratulating him on his elevation to the position of Minister for Defence: he is a very worthy holder of that office—and I hope the incumbent Parliamentary Secretary comes out to visit his holdings in that area. The Board of Works have vast holdings there. I should imagine they are about the biggest holdings in the Board of Works. Before dealing with Dún Laoghaire harbour and the responsibility which lies within the bailiwick of the Board of Works I dealt with the East Pier and the temporary car ferry which was there. The Parliamentary Secretary is now honouring an undertaking to take down this temporary car ferry terminal and to restore the East Pier to its former glory. We all know many people from the city and county of Dublin like to walk the length of the East Pier. It is an invigorating experience, particularly during the hard winter days, to take a walk down the pier on Saturdays or Sundays. Many young couples do this; others take their families. It is nice to know that the East Pier is to be restored. However, having given the Board of Works credit for that and for the new car ferry terminal, which is a tremendous boon to the area—it is one of the best in Europe, if not the best —I then drew attention to the Coal Quay and its effect on the area. We have many uses for this quay but the use I want to put it to is for the trawlermen of Dún Laoghaire. During the past two years I have had requests to have the Coal Quay reconstructed. The Board of Works put down a new surface. They took up the cobblestones and did a good job of resurfacing the quay in concrete.

There are many other problems in relation to the Coal Quay before it is a place men can walk on and from. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will use his good offices to prevail on the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries to have a site made available for an icing plant for the trawlermen there. It is a great need. Another problem which the Parliamentary Secretary might look at is the matter of the navigation lights. There have been complaints from trawlermen about the length of time the lights have been left off. It is necessary to have them on at critical times when trawlermen come into this magnificent harbour.

Another matter, which may be mundane when discussing an Estimate of this sort but which is a real problem from the tourist point of view, is the toilet at the end of the Coal Quay. It is one of the most frightful, antediluvian objects. It could have been built in the era of the Napoleonic wars but I do not think it would have been accepted as a modern convenience even then. The Parliamentary Secretary should get some of his subordinates to have it destroyed forthwith and to have a suitable modern public convenience built in its place.

It is most important that the Coal Quay should be developed for tourists and it is too bad that the eyesore I have just mentioned should be allowed to stand there. It is not good enough. Within Dún Laoghaire harbour there is a tremendous esplanade. Yachtsmen are catered for, there is the ferry terminal and the fishermen are catered for at the Coal Quay. All these amenities are needed both for the benefit of the local community and for the tourists. So that the amenities may be improved, I should like to prevail on the Parliamentary Secretary to have the area examined.

There is one final point I wish to make. It relates to the conditions of employment of ordinary workers in Dún Laoghaire. I do not wish to be abrasive about it but when these men are asked to do various difficult jobs they should be enabled to work in normal conditions.

A few other points have occurred to me. There is the matter of a new hotel in the area. There has been a lot of criticism of me for having pursued this against all the odds. However, the people have come around to my way of thinking, and I couple Councillor Seán Byrne with this because he had been pressing for it when it was not popular to do so. The other night the tourist element in the area said it was disastrous that we did not get the hotel at the time. If the new hotel cannot be built at the railway station I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will be able to make an alternate site available.

There is also the matter of schools for mentally handicapped children. The Parliamentary Secretary, in his well-prepared brief, adverted to the number of schools that have been built. There have been 34 of them, with nine in the pipeline. These schools are for moderately handicapped children but there has been criticisms about schools for the severely handicapped. Let me assure the Parliamentary Secretary that the various organisations concerned are happy with the schools he has provided for the moderately handicapped. It is to the severely handicapped that I direct his attention. We have the Drumcar School but we must do a lot more in this field. This is not strictly relevant to the functions of the Parliamentary Secretary but I hope that if he is asked to build schools he will make greater proportionate provision for severely handicapped children. Only now are we beginning to realise that they are part of our society. That being so, we should be prepared to provide the best possible conditions for those unhappy people.

Mr. Donnellan

It is a long final point.

Mr. Corish

It is a grand finale.

Mr. Andrews

It is important that I make these points before I conclude. I told Deputy Donnellan that I would sit down ten minutes before 5.30 and I will honour that undertaking. On the question of public buildings, many of them have been cleaned, under contract, by the Board of Works and the work is a credit to the men who did it. I do not know if the Parliamentary Secretary is responsible for the Custom House. I should like to see it cleaned as a matter of urgency. The only question is that it might collapse during the operation.

Under the heading of national monuments, Deputy Tully referred to Fore Abbey in County Westmeath. I went to see it in September last and I am sorry to say its state of maintenance is tragic. It is a beautiful national monument and it is a pity it is not looked after. I looked around for literature on it but it was not available—I believe it is out of print. That, too, is a pity. I gave an undertaking to the people in the Fore Abbey area that I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to have it examined.

Deputy Tully referred at length to the Phoenix Park. I wonder what is the point of letting land lie idle there. Would not a municipal golf course within the confines of the Park be an excellent proposition? I have not given the matter much thought but I think it deserves examination. It could be provided at a low charge for the benefit of the people in the city as entrance fees to existing golf courses are becoming prohibitive. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to have my suggestion examined. There would be an income from such a course.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary also examine the possibility of providing a public park in the south side of the city? We have not got a municipal park there at all and there are a number of tracts of land available. I agree that building comes first, particulary of houses and so on, but there are a number of areas available on which a public park could be laid out. I will give the Parliamentary Secretary the areas. I conclude, to let Deputy Donnellan in, by thanking Members for their patience and by congratulating the Parliamentary Secretary on his elevation.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy L'Estrange.

Mr. Donnellan

I should like to make this point. I have been here since 11.30 today in the hope of being able to say a few words on this Estimate but due to some agreement between Whips we Deputies are not getting an opportunity to express our views. In view of the fact that the Dáil is now sitting an extra day a week I think there should be no curtailment of any debate while any Deputy still wishes to express an opinion or a point of view.

An Ceann Comhairle

The House has ordered that the Parliamentary Secretary be called not later than 5.30 to conclude. I am calling Deputy L'Estrange.

Mr. L'Estrange

I shall be very brief. In regard to the car ferry terminal I have been informed that it is a badly kept, cheerless place, where facilities for getting a cup of tea are not always available.

Mr. Andrews

Is this in the Deputy's constituency?

Mr. L'Estrange

We speak for the whole country here. It does not matter whose constituency it is in.

Mr. Corish

Which car terminal are we talking about?

Mr. L'Estrange

The one in Deputy Andrew's constituency. The same applies to the one in Cork. Both need improvement immediately. In any case, I want to discuss a more important matter. On 13th November, 1969 when the Parliamentary Secretary was intoducing this debate, at column 897 of the Official Report, he spoke at length about No. 1 Hume Street and No. 46 St Stephen's Green. He did his best to build up a case for the sale of those houses. I want to ask the House why? When a person has had a bad case and goes to extreme lengths about it, as the Parliamentary Secretary did in this case, there must be something at the back of it. If there is the House should know.

The Parliamentary Secretary said, that the property was going on the market and that the State had no commitment whatever to the developers concerned and that it would be open to all interested parties to compete for the premises. He knows as well as I do that this building is worth much more to the builders concerned than to anybody else and that, in fact, it would suit nobody else but those builders. An old French proverb states that he who excuses himself accuses himself. In this case I charge the Parliamentary Secretary and the Board of Works with conniving with this particular firm as regards those buildings. I do not want to see any speculators getting rich at the expense of the taxpayers. We should be proud of and preserve our Georgian architecture which is part of our heritage. The Minister mentioned a sum of £40,000. I think this sum would be well spent in repairing those buildings.

Those who saw last Sunday's Independent saw a photograph of the buildings. Great credit is due to the Sunday Independent for publishing it and exposing to the people the vandalism and blackguardism that has occurred in regard to those buildings. We could see that slates were stripped off. When the Parliamentary Secretary went into such details informing the House about the matter why did he not inform us that this vandalism had taken place? I should like to know what action the Board of Works, or the Department of Justice, have taken to discover who the vandals and blackguards were and to find out on whose behalf they were acting. I know that thugs, vandals and blackguards, connected with the group now trying to get Irish property at as low a price as they possibly can, were responsible for damaging property of a particular individual who had a Georgian house in this particular section. The group bought the houses on both sides of him. He was determined to hold on to his house. They tried by fair means to buy the house from him and offered a colossal sum, much more than it was worth, and he refused to part with the house. Thugs and vandals connected with this group—and the Department of Justice know it because they were informed at the time— stripped the lead and slates from his house and the rain poured into flats he had let. This particular group have nothing to learn from Rachmann. They did not succeed so far in driving this man out of his house. Those houses are State property and we should do all we can to preserve them. Now that this has happened, there should be no connivance with any group and especially with this particular group because it is well known that they are active members of Taca.

Mr. Davern

What would you say to a fellow selling his farm to the Germans?

Mr. L'Estrange

I sold my farm to Cullen Estates Ltd., an Irish firm, and if it was sold to Germans why did the Fianna Fáil Government not charge them the 25 per cent tax?

An Ceann Comhairle

This does not arise.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. L'Estrange

I bought another farm and nobody belonging to me robbed a bank or plundered in the name of nationalism to buy anything we have. I bought another farm and I am farming it.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss the purchase of farms on this Estimate.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. L'Estrange

I believe the Minister should now withdraw this building from the market and not play into the hands of speculators or racketeers or those particular people who are closely associated with Taca. It is the duty of the Government now that this has been exposed—because this is being sold deliberately to suit this group and nobody else—to withdraw. We as public representatives, should not stand here for a moment and see any individual or individuals become millionaires at the expense of the Irish taxpayers.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Donnellan.

Mr. Donnellan

My time is very limited. I have exactly three minutes. I am mainly concerned with drainage west of the Shannon. The Board of Works should shake itself up a good deal and copy the example of the inter-party Government as far as drainage west of the Shannon is concerned. Recently we had a meeting at Headford which the Parliamentary Secretary instructed his engineers, and so on, to attend, and which was to deal with various extensions to the Corrib-Headford drainage scheme. I am sure that by now these extensions have been brought to the notice of the Parliamentary Secretary and I hope he will note them and give them consideration.

I want to say a few words about the Suck drainage scheme, the completion of Lavalley drainage scheme and the Dunkellin drainage scheme. I should like to know from the Parliamentary Secretary what number on the priority list is the River Suck, when it will be done and what has been done so far. The Lavalley drainage scheme has been held up since the Corrib drainage scheme closed. It is part of it. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary as briefly as possible to give me a rundown on the Lavalley scheme and say what is the present position regarding it and when will the Board of Works complete it.

Regarding the Dunkellin drainage scheme, I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to let me know what number on the priority list this drainage scheme is, and what correspondence he has received from the committee who, at the moment, are trying to get this scheme into operation. The Parliamentary Secretary said that "in the current year field survey work continues on the Owenmore major catchment in Sligo and on the Dunkellin and Lavalley minor catchments in Galway". I want to know how long this field survey work will continue as far as the Dunkellin scheme is concerned. There are many people in this area and they cannot carry out land project schemes because the Office of Public Works will not undertake work on the Dunkellin scheme in the Athenry area of my constituency. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to look into these questions as they mean a lot to the people living in that area.

I had a question down to the Parliamentary Secretary this week about the completion of the drainage of the Kilroe River, Corrandulla, part of the Corrib-Headford scheme. In his reply he stated that work would be completed on it next year. I asked him in a supplementary question when communication was last made with the individual who owns the mill that is holding up the scheme and he was not able to give me a reply. I hope he will now be able to give me that reply.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. Lemass)

I should like to start by thanking Deputies for their good wishes on my new appointment and I hope, if I cannot satisfy Deputies on all sides of the House, to be able to do so as far as possible. I should like also to return the congratulations to Deputy Barry on his promotion to the Front Bench, and to Deputy Keating who led for Labour on his election to the House. I was surprised, however, that Deputy Barry should start off, in his maiden speech, as the Front Bench representative for the Office of Public Works, by advocating that he himself should be abolished. I understand the Minister for Lands made a similar suggestion in his reply today so it seems to be a great time for people abolishing themselves.

I certainly do not accept that the Office of Public Works should be abolished. I think what is happening is that many Deputies are prejudging the Devlin Report. I imagine that, with the exception possibly of Deputy Desmond, no one has really read or made any attempt to understand the full content of the Devlin Report. I have read through it because it affects my Office but I cannot say, at the same time, that I agree with some of their conclusions. I am quite willing to await the outcome of the investigation the Government are making into the report and the consideration they are giving to it and, of course, I will accept their decision in the matter.

I pointed out in my opening remarks the difficulties there are in getting skilled staff, especially architects, draughtsmen and engineers. At the moment, several Departments are competing for the services of these skilled craftsmen. I think that is daft. All these activities concerned with building which require architects and skilled people like that should be centralised in the one office. In other words, I think the Office of Public Works should be considerably expanded.

Deputy Barry, Deputy O'Donnell, Deputy Coughlan and Deputy Begley expressed concern because this Estimate was down by £500,000. This Estimate should have been disposed of before the summer recess. As the year is running out, I am afraid we will not be able to work within the amount provided. We will exceed it, particularly in relation to the building of schools. The reason why the Estimate is down is not that we planned to reduce the volume of work, but that we have introduced a good management system as a result of years of study. We are getting much greater productivity and much better value for money all down along the line.

In 1959-60, the total expenditure was £4,394,996. In 1966-67, it was £7,753,000. This year our expenditure will exceed £10 million. The activities of the Office of Public Works are by no means being curtailed. In fact, they are being expanded. The largest file in 51, St. Stephen's Green is a file of unsolicited letters of thanks and congratulations for efficient and fast work carried out by the Office of Public Works over the years. Many prominent Deputies opposite have also sent in letters of this nature, unsolicited. Any suggestion that the Office of Public Works is in any way inefficient is to be abhorred, because it is not true. I am delighted with the efficiency and the co-operation I have got from the staff in the Office of Public Works.

The one question which seems to have raised a bit of emotion is the proposed sale of 1, Hume Street and 46, St. Stephen's Green. So far as 46, St. Stephen's Green is concerned, the State's interest in it will be up very shortly. The State will be evicted in a matter of a few years time.

Mr. Desmond

Who sold the interest in it?

Mr. Lemass

I have not got that information but I will get it for the Deputy. We have a lease which is up in a few years time. The State owns 1, Hume Street outright. The history of this is that application for outline planning permission for the redevelopment of 1, Hume Street and 46, 47, 48 and 49, St. Stephen's Green was made on 4th March, 1966. Outline permission was granted on 8th June, 1966——

Mr. Desmond

To the Green Property Company.

Mr. Lemass

——subject to the following provisions: the provision of off-street car parking, frontage and height of the new buildings to be the same as 50, St. Stephen's Green, the facade to be brickwork to match that adjoining; and demolition of 47, 48 and 49, St. Stephen's Green was carried out about November, 1966.

Mr. Desmond

Without permission.

Mr. Lemass

With permission and without protest, and without anybody objecting. On 1st December, 1966, the Board invited offers for their interest in 1, Hume Street and 46, St. Stephen's Green and it was not until the Board tested the market on these two properties, that there were any protests from any preservation groups whatsoever within this city—not even a letter from an individual to the papers.

Mr. Desmond

Quite frankly, we knew then there was a fiddle on.

Mr. Dowling

The fiddlers are all in the Labour Party.

Mr. Lemass

I think my Department and the State would do better to sell this by tender but, on account of the scurrilous statements made by Deputy L'Estrange and others I will arrange to have it sold by public auction.

Mr. R. Barry

That is quite unfair.

Mr. Lemass

They described respectable business people as crooks and gangsters and racketeers—a disgraceful performance.

Mr. R. Barry

Certain people still think something like that goes on.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy Keating was concerned with what he thought was a contradiction between the high standard of maintenance which has been applied to these buildings, and restoration. There is a big difference between those two things. The present condition of the buildings is simply a matter of structural failure through age. It is like having a motor car. No matter how well one maintains it eventually it will wear out through age and it will no longer be economic to keep it. That is the situation in relation to 1, Hume Street. It is absolutely coincidental that these other developments were taking place around the area.

I should like to mention also the restoration figure which Deputy Desmond suggested was being inflated for some political reason. I have no reason to believe that any of the staff of the Office of Public Works or of the consultants who were employed would give me any false information on this matter.

Mr. Desmond

What is the cost of dry rot?

Mr. Lemass

Every single representation and every single factor of this matter was carefully considered over a very extended period and I am satisfied that the Government have come to the only sensible and logical conclusion. It would be absolutely ridiculous to spend, first, £40,000 on restoration, and then to have to give compensation to the Green Property Development Company who have an interest in surrounding properties and who have planning permission from the Department of Local Government.

Mr. Desmond

What is the market value of the two buildings?

Mr. Lemass

That will be determined by public auction.

Mr. Desmond

I can assure the Parliamentary Secretary that the £40,000 spread over five years would not come near it. The whole argument is fraudulent.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy L'Estrange mentioned houses in that area from which slates have been removed recently. These are not State property; they are privately owned and we have no interest in them whatsoever. Let us consider the series of events: planning permission sought, planning permission given, houses demolished; the State puts an advertisement in the paper, and then there is a protest. Nobody said a word until then. I suggest certain people in An Taisce are trying to use that organisation for purely political purposes.

Mr. Desmond

And Bord Fáilte?

Mr. R. Barry

I should like to put on record that I dissociate myself from the Parliamentary Secretary's remarks about An Taisce. They are quite unfair.

Mr. Lemass

On many matters An Taisce and the Board of Works work very closely together and we have commissioned them to do work for us. I am referring to this one particular matter. If these people were genuinely concerned about this, the protest should have come when the advertisement went into the paper for planning permission.

Mr. Desmond

Is the Parliamentary Secretary suggesting that Professor Kevin Nowlan has an interest in the buildings?

Mr. Lemass

I should like also to refute the lie that has been repeated over and over again—I am not suggesting it was a deliberate lie——

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

A lie of its very nature is deliberate.

Mr. Lemass

I am not saying it was deliberate, because there was an article run in the Irish Times subsequently which might have been open to misinterpretation, but at the conclusion of that article there was a publication of a statement made by my predecessor, Deputy James Gibbons, Minister for Defence, on 24th December, 1966, and I should like to quote the relevant paragraphs:

The Commissioners, being mindful of their responsibility to a public authority, sought the advice of the appropriate planning authority, the Dublin Corporation, with regard to the further development of the area in question. Pending receipt of this advice it was considered prudent to test the market for the property to ascertain its current value. This information would be essential in the determination of any compensation which might fall to be awarded under the Planning Act.

In the light of these facts, it should be quite clear that there has been no attempt to anticipate the Dublin Development Plan. The market value of the properties having been ascertained, ample time will be available to all responsible parties to present their views to the planning authority.

Mr. Desmond

That is not the text of what he said.

Mr. Lemass

That is the exact text of what he said.

Mr. Desmond

He said it would not be sold——

Mr. Lemass

He did not. A reporter in the Irish Times said that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary should be allowed to conclude.

Dr. Cruise-O'Brien

Where is the authentic record of it?

Mr. Lemass

Deputies have to accept it. The rules of the House demand it. As I have only a limited amount of time, I think I have dealt sufficiently with that. Deputy Desmond was critical of the system of renting of Government office accommodation while Deputy Barry and Deputy Keating were opposed to renting at all. It would be marvellous if the Government could build and provide all their own office accommodation, but as against that the Government have to consider their priorities, and the priorities of housing, hospitals, schools, sanitary services, Garda barracks, all these are considered more important than spending capital money on the building of Government offices. I am surprised to hear the representatives of the Labour Party suggesting we should take capital money away from some of these services for the purpose of putting up several millions of pounds worth of offices.

Mr. Desmond

I never suggested it

Mr. Lemass

No, but Deputy Keating did.

Mr. Desmond

He was looking for a cost-benefit analysis.

Mr. Lemass

I have the quotation here. In other words, the thinking behind renting office accommodation is to conserve capital which is required more urgently for other purposes. Deputy Barry said we were paying an average of 25/- per square foot for this. I should like to assure him—and I do not believe I am giving away any confidence—that the figure for office accommodation is well below that.

Mr. Desmond

Is it 17/- per square foot?

Mr. R. Barry

What is the figure?

Mr. Lemass

It is not the practice to give figures of rents paid for office accommodation. It cannot be done.

Mr. R. Barry

The Parliamentary Secretary is making a fair assessment of the whole thing, but could he tell us what is the figure?

Mr. Lemass

It is not the practice to disclose such information.

Mr. Desmond

How can we believe then what the Parliamentary Secretary says?

Mr. Lemass

It is considerably less than the figure mentioned by Deputy Barry. Deputy Barry also suggested that the space vacated by the Departments of Education and Lands should be used to house the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. In the first instance, these houses were originally designed as private living accommodation, and they are quite unsuitable to house the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. In fact, the two Departments that will be going down the country fairly soon are now housed in 30 separate buildings throughout the city, so it would only fragment the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries even more if we were to put them in there. We believe that in the best interest of efficiency and for reasons which I shall come to later, it is better to have them all under the one roof.

If Deputy Barry was here when Deputy Tully was talking about these properties in Merrion Street——

Mr. R. Barry

I was.

Mr. Lemass

——he would have heard him say that when he goes there he cannot find his way in and when he gets in he cannot find his way out. Deputy Tully knows how unsuitable these buildings are, and I am sure Deputy Barry does, too. These buildings will be put to the best possible use when the time comes.

There was a query also about Ryan's public house in Haddington Road. That is being leased at the moment and it is part of the site. When the site is developed the licence will go with it. This property may be used as part of the development of the building that is proposed to go there, but, on the other hand, it could be disposed of if it is not required.

Mr. R. Barry

Is the licence still there?

Mr. Lemass

Yes, and the pub is open. Regarding the proposed office block which we are acquiring on a hire purchase basis in Kildare Place, let me say that in 1964 the then Minister for Finance heard this property was for sale, that it had been bought, that planning permission was being sought and had been obtained for the erection of an office block there.

This caused considerable concern to my Department because the new structure which is going up will overlook the complete complex of buildings between Kildare Street and Merrion Place. In times of demonstrations, picketing Parliament and the throwing of petrol bombs it would be a dangerous thing to have a tall building like that overlooking the Government building. A decision was made in 1964 but the discussions were only concluded quite recently. I am satisfied that the terms we have agreed on are very reasonable and very fair.

Deputy Keating was extremely concerned about the condition of our national Parliament building. He said it should be a national showpiece and I agree with that sentiment but I do not agree with what he went on to say after that. In my opening statement I did say that the electrical works were completed but there are, in fact, some structural works still going on in the House and if there is some dust flying around I apologise for it. In my 13 years in this House I have found the cleaning staff extremely efficient. Even when I left a couple of letters on my desk by mistake at night they would be picked up, dusted under and neatly put back ready for me next morning. The responsibility for the cleaning of Leinster House is not the responsibility of the Office of Public Works. It is the responsibility of the Ceann Comhairle and the Clerk of the Dáil administered through the Captain of the Guard. Deputy Keating complained that the Venetian blinds were not very clean. They were cleaned by contract only a couple of weeks before the House re-assembled.

Deputy Keating was also very critical about the design of the furniture in the public rooms and in the restaurant. This furniture was selected by the Joint Restaurant Committee. Various designs were submitted to the all-party committee and the committee decided which furniture it though most suitable. We have given Deputies in the previous Dáil what they wanted and I am sorry if Deputies of this Dáil do not like it.

On the design of furniture generally, I would like to say that the design centre at the central engineering workshop has proved most successful. Both foreign and Irish designs are available to Government Departments and I am very pleased to say that the Irish design has been found to be far better and far more wanted than anything designed abroad for this purpose. Deputy Keating seems to have a poor opinion of Irish designers in general, but I think Irish designers are very well up to, if not ahead, of many of their competitors abroad.

I was asked by Deputy Tully how much this new block would cost. To date we have spent £750,000 and when the work is finished we will have spent £760,000. Deputy Taylor came along with the idea that this was a secondhand shop taking in the carpets from Áras an Uachtaráin, but that is a ridiculous suggestion.

Mr. Donnellan

Could I interrupt the Parliamentary Secretary for one moment? He has been speaking here since 5.30 and he has not mentioned anything else except Dublin. There are more important things to talk about than the furniture, carpets and Venetian blinds of this House.

Mr. Lemass

If the Deputy will give me a chance I will deal with the other matters.

The entrance to this House is at Leinster Lawn and I am investigating the possibility of having this floodlit. I am also looking into the possibility of borrowing some pictures from the National Gallery which could be hung in various parts of the House. The new building is air-conditioned and that is why it sometimes works in reverse and blows in cold air in order to maintain an even temperature. If the lifts do not do what you want them to do it means that somebody else has pressed the button before you. They are worked by an electronic brain which registers the calls and answers them in the order in which they were made.

Deputies Coughlan, Crotty, Barry and Tully in particular were not satisfied with our rate of school building. I will give some statistics on this which will clear the picture. In 1952-53 the total amount provided for school building and renovation was £687,000 and in 1956-57 it was £1,400,000, that shows an annual increase of approximately £70,000 per annum during that period. In 1962-63 it was £1,820,000. In 1966-67 it was £2,272,000, which shows an annual rate of increase of £260,000. In 1968-69 we spent £3,510,154, which shows an increase of £370,000 over the year before. The Government are very firmly committed to a policy of restoring and replacing old schools as quickly as possible. Every new schools built by the Board of Works contains a kitchen in which a hot meal can be provided for the children. I should like to assure Deputy Tully, who I notice was at the opening of a new school and may have seen books on the floor, that shelves designed in the central engineering workshop are supplied to the schools on request.

Deputies Barry, Tully, Dowling, Keating, Andrews and Crotty were concerned about the condition of some of the existing Garda stations. I share their concern because I believe nothing but the best is good enough for the Garda Síochána. We are awaiting the recommendation of the Conroy Commission which is due very shortly. There may be some changes in policy when this report has been published, because we will know better where we are going.

Deputy Coughlan wanted to know when we were going to build the new Garda station in Limerick. I am pleased to be able to tell him that plans are now being drawn up. The station is going to be constructed in William Street and the work will be started within 12 months. There was some difficulty in finding a suitable site because we did not think William Street was the best site but it was the only site available to us.

I would like to give a few statistics about Garda barracks buildings. In the nine year period from 1960-61 to 1968-69 this office built a total of 74 new stations and 100 houses at a cost of £653,000. In the same period improvement schemes, such as the installation of bathrooms and toilets, were carried out in 399 stations at a cost of about £310,000. In the current year about 100 improvement schemes, involving the expenditure of £55,000 are planned. In the period since 1962-63 the National Building Agency erected nearly 450 homes at a total cost of £1,100,000. However we might wish to accelerate that programme, I think our record over the last nine years is not one we need be ashamed of.

Deputy Barry complained that three quarters of the £10 million in this Estimate is being spent in Dublin, but this is just not so. Expenditure in Dublin in the main is on State building. Otherwise, expenditure on drainage, schools, national monuments, Shannon navigation and coast protection are mostly to the benefit of the country areas.

I should like to mention one thing that needs to be clarified. There is the maximum cooperation between the engineers of the Office of Public Works and the engineers of local authorities. There is no problem arising there. They cooperate fully together.

Mr. Donnellan

Arising out of that, how about this hold-up in Headford at the moment?

Mr. Lemass

Actually, drainage is not last; it is second last.

Mr. R. Barry

I do not want to be in any way critical of the Parliamentary Secretary. I am quite fair to him, I hope. When I say that three-quarters of the Vote was spent in Dublin, will he tell us how much of it was spent outside Dublin?

Mr. Lemass

The Deputy can make that calculation himself from the figures I have given.

Mr. R. Barry

I cannot. I am not fit to do it.

Mr. Lemass

It is a simple matter of addition. I shall not do it now, on the spot. Perhaps I should have done it before I came in.

Mr. R. Barry

Has not the Parliamentary Secretary officials at his disposal?

Mr. Lemass

Well, the £3½ million on schools is a fair slice of £9½ million. Deputies Barry and Tully were particularly concerned about having the history of the various national monuments made available either by tape recorder or cards that could be purchased or on plaques attached to the monuments. We are looking into these matters. We realise that there is need for some improvement in this matter, that the old "Protected by the Office of Public Works" plaque is not adequate for the situation. We have drawn up a tentative list of 20 principal national monuments—I shall not name them because they could be changed and then I would find myself in difficulty with Deputies who might find that the monuments in which they were interested had been left out. We hope that over the next few years we will be able to put in a guide service such as we have in Newgrange and now at Cashel, at each of these 20 monuments. We think this is the best way to do it but it must be remembered that the whole question of national monuments is a long-term national programme. It is not a matter that one can rush at and do overnight.

I should like to point out quite clearly that of all the provisions in the Estimate the one in which there is the biggest increase in expenditure is the provision for parks and monuments— this year increased by 25 per cent.

I was asked some questions about the John F. Kennedy Memorial. All I can say about it is that contract drawings will be ready in my Department some time next year or possibly by the end of this year and the Minister for Finance has indicated to the House that he will then call a meeting of the all-party committee. It is an all-party committee which will decide what further progress will be made with this project. The Haddington Road site will be retained regardless of what decision is arrived at about the siting of the memorial.

Deputy Joe Dowling was very concerned about the design of the Wolfe Tone and Thomas Davis monuments. I do not claim to be in a position to judge but the advice given to my Department is that they are of considerable artistic merit. I should like to say, however, that the sculpture that has been designed for the memorial park will be a beautiful thing. However, there has been some controversy because this is being mounted in Italy. The matter was raised by the man who carried out the work for us on the Wolfe Tone monument. I should like to put on record the position regarding this. The original design of the Garden of Remembrance envisaged a central sculptural feature. The choice of theme was a very difficult matter. Early in 1966 the Government announced their decision to appoint the sculptor, Oisin Kelly, on the basis of a theme which he proposed. It depicts the transformation of men into swans. The sculptor said his thought on the matter was largely informed by the poetry of William Butler Yeats and the idea that men at a certain moment in history are transformed utterly. It is expected to be ready for erection in the garden in mid-1971.

Regarding the question of having the casting done at home or abroad, the sculptural group consists of four figures and four swans. These together form a very large and complex structure, so that great care has to be exercised in reinforcing the casting and in assembling them in their completed form. A firm had to be chosen which had experience of casting and of assembling large-scale monuments in bronze. It was also necessary to engage a firm employing modellers with experience of full-scale enlargement, who would collaborate satisfactorily with the sculptor—that is most important—who, in any case, would be responsible for the finished details of the enlargement before casting. A special technique was worked out for this collaboration and, as the result of that advice which was given to me, I decided that the course which we followed was the correct one.

Deputy Tunney told me that he would like to see more gatekeepers in the Phoenix Park. I should like to inform the Deputy that, if I can, I shall try to man every gate in the Phoenix Park, regardless of what it costs. I will have a lot more to say about the Phoenix Park at a later date as I am having certain things examined at the moment. I think Deputy Dowling's suggestion for the provision of bowling greens there is an excellent one and I will have it examined forthwith. I should like also to join Deputy Dowling in congratulating RTE on their very fine film on the archaeological finds at Winetavern Street.

I have confirmed that the information given to us here today by Deputy Davern regarding a certain picture which RTE presented is correct information and that the Board of Works and the school manager, several years before the group water scheme was envisaged for Ballylooby, had started and had sunk a well and that the work had gone so far when the group water scheme came in that it was decided that this method that we had decided on of supplying water to the children should be proceeded with. In the circumstances, I think the manager was right in this matter.

Mr. Andrews

Has the Parliamentary Secretary given any consideration to the possibility of having a municipal golf course in the Phoenix Park?

Mr. Lemass

That is being considered in conjunction with a number of other matters. I am not yet in a position to give any further detail on it. Deputy Tully was very concerned to know why there was a delay in paying the increase in pay granted to the people on drainage schemes. I am satisfied that no undue delay took place in the Office of Public Works. He was also concerned about the number of people employed in the maintenance staffs on the Glyde and the Dee. My information, which I got yesterday, was that in 1968 there were 44 and in 1969 there were 39—a small reduction.

Before I leave the subject of parks I should like to say that I have requested the Department of Finance to make available to my Department a botanist and horticulturalist and I understand that they will be giving me a decision on this in the next week or two. This is most desirable in regard to places like the Bourne Vincent Park, the Kilkenny Park and the many other parks and monuments that come under our jurisdiction.

I should like now to refer to Newgrange. It will be some years before the work there is brought to completion. There is one difficulty there which I should like to explain to Deputy Tully. It is that a number of stones were brought there in 2500 BC, some from the south of Ireland, some from the north, and they are all of different colours, of different textures and of all shapes. They were obviously placed in some sort of design and a good deal of research will have to be done before the archaeologists down there can decide which way they should be placed.

Deputy Davern was concerned about the recruitment of guides at the Rock of Cashel. The method of recruitment is that we contact the universities and ask them if archaeological students would be interested in taking these appointments. I will have a look at the matter between now and next year but I think we will have to continue this particular method of appointment. It is, in my opinion, the best way and it helps the students to get practical experience and take a live interest in their subject.

With regard to Kilkenny Castle— Deputy Crotty was apparently misinformed—there is a restoration society and there is a large local committee which meet regularly. There is complete communication between the Office of Public Works and the local people.

Deputy Hussey and Deputy Donnellan were concerned about the Corrib. Work is proceeding, as the Deputy knows, and will continue. The estimate for the total work is £1 million and about half that amount has been spent. The Corrib-Mask-Robe scheme will be completed, we expect, in 1971. The Deputies were also concerned about the Suck. The Suck has been surveyed. It is No. 8 on the priority list. It would have been done by now only for the problem of the Shannon, and I am afraid it will have to be left now and done in conjunction with the Shannon drainage scheme.

Mr. Donnellan

When is it proposed to do the Shannon?

Mr. Lemass

A contract was placed with the Cementation Company (Ireland) Limited in October, 1967, for a trial boring survey of the stretch of main river between Meelick and Lough Forbes. The contract sum is approximately £26,000. This survey was carried out in 1968 and the information obtained from this has been plotted. The hydrological investigation of the Shannon continues.

Mr. Donnellan

These are rather fancy words.

Mr. Lemass

The Shannon drainage is one of the biggest single engineering projects ever undertaken and there is so much involved it is not practicable to prognosticate when we will be able to proceed with the work.

Mr. Donnellan

It is not possible, therefore, to prognosticate when the Suck will be done either.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Parliamentary Secretary has only one minute left and he should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Mr. Lemass

Deputy Gibbons made a very comprehensive statement, when he was Parliamentary Secretary, on the Nore drainage scheme and there is nothing I can add now to what he said. It was promised the survey would start this year. It has started but, as Deputies know, it is some years after the survey starts that work can be proceeded with.

Dunkellin is tenth on the list. With regard to the Groody catchment drainage scheme, we wrote to Limerick Corporation and Limerick County Council asking them if they were willing to place the scheme on exhibition. We are anxious that the scheme should be on display as quickly as possible so that we can hear the objections.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair wishes to point out to the Parliamentary Secretary that the time allowed for him to conclude on the debate has now been reached.

Mr. Lemass

The Groody is divided into three parts. The Corrib-Clare is completed; the Corrib-Headford is in progress and the Corrib-Mask is being designed. I should have liked to say something about Dún Laoghaire——

Mr. Donnellan

The Parliamentary Secretary spent long enough talking about Dublin.

Mr. Lemass

It was not my wish that the time for my reply should be curtailed. I have a great deal more information which I shall convey to the Deputies concerned as soon as I can.

Motion to refer back, by leave, withdrawn.

Vote put and agreed to.