Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 20 Nov 1969

Vol. 242 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 8: Public Works and Buildings (Resumed.)

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

—Deputy R. Barry.

Mr. Begley

I should like to congratulate the Office of Public Works on their initiative in handing over Muckross House to trustees. Who can imagine the benefit that will be derived from that decision by the people of Killarney and Kerry? Muckross House is now established as one of the finest folk museums in the country. But for the fact that it was decided to hand it over to trustees, Muckross House would never have recaptured its former glory and splendour. So much for bouquets to the Office of Public Works.

I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary seriously to consider the acquisition of Innisfallen Island for the nation. This island is steeped in folklore and history. It is at present owned by an American. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he would initiate discussions between his office, Bord Fáilte and Mr. McShane, the American owner, with a view to acquiring the monastery and island for the nation. This is too valuable a property to be foreign-owned. Mr. McShane has been more than reasonable in the past whenever the Killarney Urban Council asked him for lands for various purposes and I am quite sure that he will co-operate again if discussions are initiated.

I would not want to see a repetition of what happened in Kerry last year when the Office of Public Works closed a gate to the jarvies and kept it closed for several months. There is no need to close gates in Ireland. If there was a local dispute, that was not the way to settle it. The Office of Public Works should have been big enough to meet the people there and to iron out the difficulties and the points of difference that had arisen. It is imperative that the bolts should be removed and the gates opened. To close gates is not the answer to any problem. It is too dictatorial. Our people always take care of dictators. I do not know how the gate that was closed by the Office of Public Works survived and was not blasted out of existence. In future, if a problem arises the Office of Public Works should meet the people. The people are not too bad when you have a chat with them. I thank the Parliamentary Secretary and compliment him on his appointment.

Mr. Coughlan

We must bear in mind that the Office of Public Works is one of the most important departments of Government because of its close relation to our tourist industry. It is anything but gratifying to find a reduction of £400,000 in the Estimate this year. While we congratulate the Minister for Finance as being a super financial expert, in this case he has gone to astronomical heights to deceive us by the non-introduction of the mini-budget. He has gone another way about it—curtailing expenditure— rather than telling us straight and fair that he has to introduce a budget. The reduction of £400,000 in the Estimate is brutal having regard to the demands for development. The Minister for Finance is hiding the fact that he requires a mini-budget.

The Parliamentary Secretary has told us that there is a provision of £3 million for the erection and maintenance of schools in the current year. Even in the face of the demands for education, particularly secondary and vocational education, the overcrowding in schools and the fact that this year children leaving primary schools could not be accommodated in secondary or vocational schools, the Parliamentary Secretary has not provided for an increase in the amount in this subhead. In Limerick city this year there were almost 100 boys who could not obtain accommodation in secondary schools and we had to tackle the problem as best we could. Some of them were diverted to schools not of their own denomination.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair must point out to the Deputy that the Office of Public Works has no responsibility in regard to secondary or vocational education and that in regard to primary education it is merely a building agency. The Department of Education is responsible for the provision of extra money for schools.

Mr. Coughlan

Yes. I am trying to indicate to the Parliamentary Secretary the necessity for an increase in this subhead, that the amount provided will not come near meeting the demands for vocational and secondary school accommodation which will arise in the next term.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy does appreciate that this Office has no responsibility for these departments?

Mr. Coughlan

I appreciate that but I want to emphasise the necessity for an increase in this provision, if we are to fulfil the promise we made in the past. With regard to the provision of schools for retarded and mentally handicapped children, the Office of Public Works has fallen down completely on the provision of accommodation for these children and the provision of such facilities is left entirely to local committees.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Again——

Mr. Coughlan

I just wanted to say that. I have said it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

——the Chair does not want to interrupt the Deputy but the Office of Public Works cannot direct the erection of any school anywhere. It is a building agency only for the Department of Education and any remarks about schools must arise on the Estimate for that Department.

Mr. Coughlan

With all due respect to the Chair, the Parliamentary Secretary himself mentioned the provision of accommodation for handicapped children at column 893, volume 242 of the Official Report:

The provision of schools for mentally-handicapped and under-privileged children is a recent addition to our programme.

Why, in the name of Providence, can I not speak about it now?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Office of Public Works is a building agency which carries out the instructions of the Department of Education.

Mr. Coughlan

I want to impress on the Parliamentary Secretary the urgent necessity of providing accommodation for the retarded and the mentally handicapped.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That may be so, but the Estimate for the Department of Education is not under discussion at the moment.

Mr. Coughlan

That is all I want to say. I come now to garda stations. The Parliamentary Secretary tells us that new stations are in progress at Kilrush and Ennistymon in Clare, Dungloe, Portroe and Aclare, and tenders are under examination for new stations at Kiltyclogher and Birr. There is not one word about the provision of a central garda station in Limerick city. This has been under discussion for nearly 20 years. We have been pressing for something to be done for the past four or five years. Some action has been taken within the last five or six months. There has been a survey of the building. When work will begin is another matter. If the present structure were under the control of a local authority it would have been condemned out of hand as a dangerous building ten or 15 years ago. Unfortunately, we have no say in these matters. It is a sad state of affairs to see a city like Limerick left with a shambles of a garda station. The men were forced to leave the station some three or four years ago and take lodgings in private houses around the city because the building was dangerous. It was let fall into rack and ruin. No money was spent on its upkeep. I want an assurance from the Parliamentary Secretary that something will be done immediately to ensure that the gardaí in Limerick are properly housed.

I come now to the Parliamentary Secretary's statement about the Shannon navigation. I am glad he has taken upon himself responsibility for the development of the Shannon. This should have been regarded as a matter of priority years ago in his office. I seem to remember the Parliamentary Secretary being reported in the press as not agreeing to the closure of the Grand Canal in Dublin. As the years go by, we find more and more people taking to the waterways. Those of us connected with the Shannon know what a big attraction the waterways are. I trust the Parliamentary Secretary will be generous in the development of our waterways. On any day from the 17th March to the middle of October the Shannon is peppered with all kinds of craft. Tourists come there from all over Europe because on the waterways they are safe; they avoid the dangers of the roads. We can give them this amenity in ample supply. I trust nothing will deter the Parliamentary Secretary in his approach to this important development. Jetties are urgently needed all along the Shannon. From personal experience I know that the same people are coming back year after year and, every time they return, they bring newcomers with them. That is proof of the demand there is for this type of holiday.

There is a more or less hit-and-run approach to our parks, monuments and castles. In the area I come from the approach is quite different. We know the value of these attractions and what has been done in my area is a headline for the rest of the country. The castles are booked out. There is a waiting list. Tourists come from as far away as the United States. Nearly all tourists try to include in their itinerary a visit to our castles in Limerick and Clare. This type of development should not be restricted. At the moment, we are applying ourselves to the development of a further castle in the Limerick city area but, unfortunately, some years ago some 20 houses were erected in the courtyard of this historic castle. Both the Limerick City Council and the Shannon Development Authority have requested the Department of Local Government to have these houses demolished. The houses were erected about 30 years ago but they are substandard houses. If the Department of Local Government would allow us to do so we could replace these houses with new houses on a site 50 or 100 yards away. We could then go ahead with the development of the famous King John's Castle in Nicholas Street, Limerick. Plans have been made for the development of the banqueting hall and for a car park. This castle would be comparable to the other castles in Clare and it would be a great boost to the tourist attractions of the area. Tourists would be given the historical background of the area, so that this castle would probably be even more attractive than those already developed. We would be very grateful to the Parliamentary Secretary if he would take steps to get the work started.

The Parliamentary Secretary complains of being understaffed and he complains in particular of the lack of adequate professional staff. There is only one answer to that and that is to pay them properly. I know many of the men who are employed by the Board of Works but they are grossly underpaid. Professional men can get more lucrative employment elsewhere. As for the unskilled and semi-skilled workers, I know many men in these categories who have been employed by the Board of Works for five, ten or 15 years but who are still on a temporary basis. It is difficult to believe that, but it is true. These men have no superannuation or pension facilities. What do we think we are doing in 1969 when we ask men to work under these conditions? Their work is no kidglove stuff. They work in all types of weather. At this very moment there are 15 or 20 men up to their knees in muck along the banks of the Shannon, working hard all day long. Engineers and overseers are in much the same position.

As the Minister for Lands has just said, it is all very well for fellows in offices to make plans. It is indeed. They are great fellows. But the unfortunate man down on the banks of the Shannon at this moment has nothing to look forward to. If he becomes ill, there is no more about him. Some of these men find it difficult to even get protective clothing. I say to the Parliamentary Secretary that he will get adequate staff if he is prepared to pay them properly for the work they are doing and to compensate them for the conditions under which they have to work.

Changes should be made in the Board of Works. Those gentlemen sitting on their plush chairs and with their carpeted floors should go down and see for themselves the conditions under which these men have to work.

Mr. Taylor

I agree entirely.

Mr. Lemass

I have been down to see them.

Mr. Coughlan

I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will change his mind as a result of having been down.

Mr. Lemass

We have completed a new agreement with the trade unions concerned.

Mr. Coughlan

Whatever you have agreed on with the unions is a matter for the unions, but I am discussing the matter as I see it. I know what these men have to put up with. I do not usually bring local matters into these Estimates but I am forced to do so on this occasion.

A Deputy

Limerick again.

Mr. Coughlan

One thing about Limerick is that she knows her people. Limerick has not been fooled by a lot of the fly-by-nights who chanced to come along. However, I wish to draw the Parliamentary Secretary's attention to the grave need for construction on the banks of the Barrington. It is constantly subject to flooding and breakage in the banks. While the machines are down there and the men are working, it would be simple to take it over. They have everything ready there and all the appliances. They will gladly move in and continue the job if the Parliamentary Secretary gives them the go ahead.

There is, then, the question of the legality of the action taken by the Office of Public Works with regard to the drainage of the Maigue. An injunction has been sought and general opinion has it that it will be granted. The matter will come up very shortly. In the meantime, I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to divert his attentions to the Mulcaire. Legal matters can drag out and work can be held up. I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to concentrate his efforts now on much-needed improvement works on the adjacent Mulcaire and Groody Rivers. One of the Parliamentary Secretary's predecessors, God be good to him, promised us some years ago that that would get his immediate attention.

There is a reduction of £400,000 in this Estimate compared with last year. That in itself is a sort of mini-budget. Bear in mind that salaries and wages have gone up as well as the cost of up-to-date machinery. Some of these machines cost thousands of pounds but, if we are to get ahead with this allimportant job of drainage, more machines must be purchased. The labour force is available to work them. The reduction of £400,000, compared with last year, indicates that there will be a curtailment of the amount of work to be done. Let us get our priorities right. If we curtail progress, every-body will lose. A greater sum of money —not less—is necessary if the work which requires to be done is to be carried out.

The Parliamentary Secretary is young in the job. I hope he will take his courage in his hands and do the right thing. I trust the position in regard to conditions of employment will be rectified and brought up to date. The tourist industry should not be allowed to suffer any loss as a result of the reduction of £400,000 in the Vote this year. I hope this very necessary drainage work will be done without any more waste of time.

Having said all that, I wish the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Lemass, well in his new office. I look forward to seeing the results of his management of that important Department in the next 12 months.

Mr. Davern

I should like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on his appointment to the Office of Public Works. From what I know of him, he will make a tremendous impression on this Department.

Down my way, there is a very old song: "She lived beside the Anner at the foot of Slievenamon." If the lady referred to in the song were living there today she would be up to her neck in water from flooding by the River Suir and the River Anner. Twenty-two years ago, the late Deputy Michael Donnellan promised to have the River Suir drained, and so also did Deputy James Ryan. They said it would be done "in the near future." I fail to see how a period of 22 years could be regarded as "in the near future." There are 138 farms, amounting to thousands of acres, flooded in this district each winter. Last winter, we had the most severe flooding of all. A number of villages were isolated for a number of weeks; roads were cut off; bridges were severely damaged. All that was due to the fact that the river needs more drainage from one end to the other. It is absolutely essential that the work be undertaken immediately. We are now promised 1972 but, on the other hand, we were already promised 1965. The land reclamation scheme is useless in that area. Even if a man drains his farm, his land is flooded again. A veterinary surgeon was driving along the road when the river burst its banks. His car was not found for three weeks. That will indicate how serious the flooding there is. Many shops in Ardfinnan, Golden, Cahir, and so on, had to close down their businesses during the flooding season. I fear this matter has not sufficiently been stressed by various deputations to the Parliamentary Secretary. He should now insist that this critical work will be carried out without further delay.

With regard to primary schools, I should like to compliment the Office of Public Works on the recent Ballylooby private scheme. I would criticise RTE on this matter. They came down to our area and used photographs which showed the regional scheme passing down beside the Office of Public Works private pump which had been built in Ballylooby National School. This was a faked photograph and was shown publicly in the press. This was done to discredit the Office of Public Works. The producer of that programme was approached before-hand. It was pointed out to him that this was a falsification but nevertheless he ignored this completely. The Parliamentary Secretary has the full support of the many decent people in that area who realise that both he and the parish priest have worked for a long time to have water put into the local school there.

I should like to compliment the people in the Office of Public Works in my area on the fantastic job of work they have been doing. There have been complaints of rats in the classrooms at Knockavilla school. I should like to see the Department clearing up this matter properly. I should like also to compliment the Parliamentary Secretary on the architecture of the school for mentally handicapped children outside Cashel, Scoil Cormac. More imagination could be used in the building of the ordinary primary schools. The plans for them have been the same over a long period of years.

I disagree with many of the things which the national monuments section of the Office of Public Works have been doing. They have continued their attitude of "hands off, let us do it" but they have not done sufficient. There have been 29,000 visitors to the Rock of Cashel this summer. The Office of Public Works provided four guides who have proved to be a tremendous asset. Guides have been needed there for many years. The guides were not local people as they should have been. They have not the natural attachment to this marvellous monument. The positions were not advertised in the ordinary public advertising circles as they should have been. The floodlighting of this castle is done by a commercial firm. They were given the contract without any strings attached. The local committee would like to see a small plaque erected stating that the lighting is sponsored by Messrs. Guinness. I fail to see how there could be any objection to a six-inch plaque under the existing notice of the Office of Public Works. I cannot see that such a plaque would distract visitors from the natural background of the Rock of Cashel. The Parliamentary Secretary should look into this matter.

There are no accessible pathways around the Castle. I would like to see an interest taken also in the graves which are now just grassy mounds, heaped with broken headstones. These should be cleaned up because of the large number of summer visitors each year. Another point is that cars should not be allowed to proceed to the top of the steep hill. There should be a gateway and a barrier across it. There is a danger of cars slipping down the hill and colliding with people coming up it. The hill is too steep for elderly people and some sort of suitable, gradual pathway should be provided.

The Parliamentary Secretary should take the initiative in restoring some of our old castles to their original state. Possibly their interior decoration could be restored to what it was originally. We would like to see the restoration and re-roofing of the castle on the Rock of Cashel and a museum there as a centrepiece. This has not been agreed to yet, although it may be agreed to sometime in the future. There are no toilet facilities adjacent to many of the national monuments. The toilets which are in existence near monuments are disgusting. The keeper of one such toilet gets £15 a year to clean it. No member of the Office of Public Works staff would come to clean it for that sum of money.

I would like now to refer to the garda station at Ballinure. In this station a garda was expected to move from a house he had built to a village with a population of 40 or 50 people. He was expected to bring his wife to where there were no water or toilet facilities. This was due to a tenancy problem. The house he was being given belonged to the local squire in the area who was not prepared to grant a long lease of it. This matter could be dealt with in the Parliamentary's Secretary's office in conjunction with the Department of Justice. Gardaí have been asked to go into one-man stations but have not been given the comfort of ordinary decent homes with water and toilet facilities. The Office of Public Works have not provided proper amenities in such cases.

I also want to mention Clogheen station. There are very few garda stations which are actually owned by the Government. The majority of them are leased. In the case of the Lismore station in County Waterford, the lease has expired but the new station has not even been planned yet. I would like to see the present garda stations being renovated. They are more like mausoleums in which the gardaí in occupation are more like morticians. Their accommodation is dull and dreary, the floors and walls are in bad condition and the bedding is monastic-like. I know the Parliamentary Secretary will do a good job. I am just pointing out to him some of the things which should have been done by the Office of Public Works over the past few years.

Mr. Crotty

I would like to congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on his appointment and to thank him for the interest he has shown in Kilkenny since his appointment. He has shown interest in the public park and in the design centre. I wish him every success in his new office.

I am disappointed that the Estimate for the Parliamentary Secretary's office has been reduced by £500,000. I consider arterial drainage the main aspect of the work of the Office of Public Works. This is generally accepted. I hope that none of this cut will be applied to arterial drainage.

We in Kilkenny have a big flooding problem. The Parliamentary Secretary will be conversant with this because he was concerned with an industry in Kilkenny for some time which depended on the River Nore for some of its power. We have had talk of drainage of the Nore since 1947, when we had disastrous flooding in Kilkenny city and people were taken in boats from the top windows of their houses. We have had agitation from the local authorities, from local traders and from the tenants of houses for drainage of the Nore for a quarter of a century. I am glad to see that a survey is to be started on the Nore but I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary how long this survey is likely to take? When can we expect that drainage of the Nore will commence? When the people of Kilkenny hear that a survey is being undertaken they will expect that drainage is just around the corner, that we will have drainage this year or next year.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary give us an inkling of when the Nore might be drained? If drainage will take some time, some interim work should be carried out for the relief of Kilkenny city. There are weirs along the River Nore. Fortunately, some years ago one of these weirs was blown up by an unknown person. This was a wonderful job and relieved a lot of flooding in the area. However, there is also a weir on the downstream side of the city and it is felt locally by engineers and other people qualified to give an opinion that if this weir were removed it would also relieve flooding to a great extent. A problem would then arise in regard to what we call the town pond in Kilkenny which would go dry in the summer months, but perhaps a sluice gate could be erected on this to keep water there during the dry period.

We also have severe flooding in Thomastown. I heard last week of a house in Thomastown which is still damp, with water still coming up through the floor, since the last flooding. These unfortunate people have nowhere else to go. I do not think there was a house built in Thomastown for many years. It is a terrible state of affairs that people with young families must live in these conditions. It would be only justice to them to hurry up drainage of the Nore. Last year, in common with everywhere else, we had a flood something like that of 1947. It went up to the first storeys again. The people are very annoyed about this and I feel it my duty to point it out in Dáil Éireann to the Parliamentary Secretary and to bring home to him the need for immediate action on the Nore flooding problem.

Related to this flooding we also have a small river, the Breagagh, in Kilkenny which floods three or four times each year. If we have a half day's heavy rain the people of Kilkenny say: "The Breagagh is out." They do not even have to look. We had initial drainage this year of the Breagagh. The local authority got a 50 per cent grant for part drainage of this river. However, unless the Nore drainage is carried out, this is a useless scheme because when the Nore rises the water cannot get away from the Breagagh. An unfortunate part of the Breagagh problem is that it floods one of the oldest abbeys in use in Ireland—it is still used three or four times a year. This is the Black Abbey run by the Dominican monks. It has been renovated and put in order by them, even though they are not in great financial circumstances. They did a very good job on the abbey. It is highly regarded by antiquarians and is one of the places to see when one comes to Kilkenny—and that is saying something because we have Roth House and many other interesting buildings. This is another reason why the Parliamentary Secretary should give urgent consideration to the drainage of the Nore and bring it forward.

I should like to thank the Parliamentary Secretary and the Board of Works for their work on Kilkenny Castle and the national park which they have taken over and are working on at present. This is a wonderful job and the thanks of the people of Kilkenny are due to the Board of Works for the interest they have shown and the work they are carrying out there. I should also like to thank Lord Ormonde for his kind donation of the Castle and gardens to the people of Kilkenny. I notice that the Parliamentary Secretary is drawing up plans for the future use of the castle. I would ask him to bring the local authorities into this scheme. The committee which was set up initially is a private one. I must also thank Mr. Lytle who gave a very welcome subscription to this committee and really started restoration of the castle. However, this is a private committee and I do not think the local authority know what is going on in the development of the gardens and castle. They were never brought in or consulted. They are the representatives of the people and this is public property which is being developed with public money. These people should be consulted and should be brought on to the committee or into consultation somewhere.

I am disappointed by the amount of money for schools in the Estimate. I know the figure of £3½ million seems very large but a big problem has been created by the new system of closing down the smaller schools and making larger and more comprehensive ones. This is a very commendable job. We all agree with it. Consideration must be given to the children's education and so on. However, this has created the problem of providing places in schools. In our area we have solved this problem to some extent with prefabricated buildings. While I do not think this is the solution, I know it is fulfilling a need. However, we should be giving better education to our children and the Parliamentary Secretary should provide more money for the building of schools. Last year, as I said, £3½ million was given but nobody would expect that that figure would build the same number of schools this year. If we go back to the early 1960's when we had an expenditure of almost that figure on schools, we can see that this is really a step backwards in the provision of proper schooling for our children.

When the classrooms are overcrowded it creates a problem for the children as well as the teachers. There is no doubt that children cannot get proper teaching in overcrowded classrooms. The teachers have great difficulty trying to teach them and they are only doing the most essential things with them. I would strongly urge the Parliamentary Secretary to look into this matter and see that much more money is given towards the provision of suitable schools for our children.

I should like to refer to housing for married gardaí. I have met some of those people in my area who are living 30 and 40 miles and, in some instances, even greater distances from their families. Those men are transferred to new posts but there is no consideration given to their housing needs. This is wrong both socially and morally. Those gardaí are obliged to live far away from their wives and children for long periods. I know a certain amount of housing is provided for gardaí through the Board of Works and the National Building Agency, but when there is need to transfer those gardaí the Garda commissioner should not transfer married gardaí to areas where there is not proper housing for them. Those men should be given some consideration in this matter. I do not know what amount of housing the Board of Works provide for gardaí but I would urge them to put it in a fairly high order of priority.

In conclusion, I should like to stress again to the Parliamentary Secretary the need for drainage of the Nore. This is one of the biggest topics in our area. In the Kilkenny area we have a vast amount of drained land now in use and this is very commendable. You can see large areas of land which were flooded for many years and now they have become fertile. It is wonderful to see the change which can come over flooded land after a scheme of this nature. You would not think it was the same place. You can see plenty of grass there for cattle and crops growing as well. However, when this water is brought off the land it is drained into rivers which are already working to capacity to get the water away and now they are overloaded. This can be seen in every area where one of those schemes is completed.

I wonder if we have our priorities right in the matter of drainage? First of all we drain the land and this water flows into the rivers nearby. In the Nore Valley we have real good farming land, but it is flooded for six months every year. Those people are getting impatient because, with the extra water pouring into the river from this drainage scheme, the flooding in the nearby area becomes more acute and water remains on the land for a longer period. This land has been reduced almost to waste land. It is bad enough for those people to lose their land but, in addition, they find it very difficult to get any abatement of rates. The whole matter of land and river drainage should be investigated and I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary to look into this as soon as possible.

Mr. Desmond

I wish to join with the other speakers in welcoming the Parliamentary Secretary's statement this year. It contains in many areas attitudes which are quite progressive and some very sensible innovations. We should also consider the fact that this morning the Minister for Lands showed rare political and Cabinet courage when he strongly expressed his desire to see his own Department amalgamated, particularly in respect of land functions, with a revitalised Department of Agriculture. That was the first confession on the part of a Cabinet Minister of this Dáil to ensure and accept the validity of a great many of the proposals and suggestions made in the Devlin Report.

The Minister for Lands' objective reassessment of the role of his Department in the changing 1970s should be followed with even greater alacrity by Deputy Noel Lemass, notwithstanding his very new appointment to the post of Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance. We must ask why it is necessary that this urgent transition of functions should take place. I feel a basic and a fundamental restructuring of the Office of Public Works is very necessary because over the years the Office of Public Works has had a reputation, which nobody particularly envies, of being incapable, because of the role in which it was cast, of effectively co-ordinating its functions on behalf of various Government Departments. As a result, they have inherited allegations of bureaucracy, of complete ineffectiveness and of a lack of a sense of purpose in the formulation of policy in relation to public works.

I do not think these major criticisms are of the staff, of the senior officers, they are criticisms of the structure and of the emasculated setting in which the Office of Public Works are expected to operate. These criticisms have been quoted in the Devlin Report which points out that there have been criticisms time and again in relation to the Office of Public Works to the effect that long term programmes are subject to extremely short term budgetary allocations, that starts are very often delayed, that projects with set completion dates are very often extended, that the overheads are increased substantially during the operation of the programmes and that completion dates are held back or put back.

We must come to the basic recommendation in the Devlin Report, which I heartily endorse, and it is that the Department of Finance should now relinquish their responsibility for the Office of Public Works which should assume a new role under, as is proposed, a new Department, a Department of Public Services. This is a concept which is close to the heart of socialists who believe in the practical reality of public services for the people of the nation.

We must ask, therefore, how would this transition come about. I do not think I could make any better approach to that than the one in the Devlin Report, which I shall summarise. The proposal is that the Office of Public Works should shed arterial drainage completely. The main benefit of this is, of course, in respect of improvements to agricultural land. This has been supported, in effect, by the Minister for Lands when this morning he abolished himself and expressed the wish that the Cabinet would agree with him. The main services should be linked with land improvement through the Department of Agriculture and therefore arterial drainage should naturally be an effective division of the Department of Agriculture and Lands. That division should be completely responsible within that Department for the designing of arterial drainage and for the procurement of facilities for the execution and subsequent management of drainage. Accordingly, the necessary equipment for that work, now under the auspices of the Office of Public Works, should be transferred to the Department of Agriculture.

Coming from a coastline constituency like Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown, I find it incomprehensible that marine work, work in relation to Shannon navigation, in relation to harbour boards and so on, should continue to be under the auspices of the Office of Public Works. It is only logical, reasonable and rational that we should have marine work, harbour work and Shannon navigation transferred to the Department of Transport and, I would add, of Communications, as advocated by the Devlin Report—a logical evolution of State responsibility.

It is preposterous that the Office of Public Works should be responsible for schools. We suggest strongly, without in any way going outside the scope of the Estimate, that one of the major inhibitions in having effective school development in a physical sense is that the Office of Public Works must act as only a part-agency on behalf of the Department of Education. It is only logical therefore, that this sector of the Office of Public Works should become the direct responsibility of the Department of Education.

I do not think the Office of Public Works have any great function in relation to parks and national monuments. There is a suggestion in the Devlin Report, which could invigorate the cultural environment of the country, to the effect that there should be a Department of National Culture. Mr. Seán MacEntee used to say, when it was mentioned, that he used to reach for his two guns in order to shoot the idea down. I strongly urge that there is need for the setting up of this Department and that parks and national monuments should be under the auspices of such a Department. Naturally, public buildings should remain under the auspices of the Office of Public Works.

These, in brief, are the kind of transitional arrangements which are very necessary and which must be brought in in the new technological era facing the country. A by-product of that approach would be that the mobility and expertise of the staffs currently engaged in public works, particularly the professional staffs such as engineers and architects—there are 104 professional officers in that office— would be considerably broadened and their career prospects considerably opened up. They would no longer look to their own internal structure if this development were brought about.

I am not one of those who criticise public servants, who have no oportunity of answering back, merely for the sake of glib criticism. There is sufficient intelligence in the staff in that office to see the basic merits of these proposals. Many of the engineers and architects related to and associated with that office whom I have met all over the country suffer from frustrations in regard to the need for these changes. Therefore, the Government and the the Parliamentary Secretary should seriously consider them.

In relation to schools, I appreciate that we have no direct opportunity on this Estimate to criticise the provision of schools as such, but if the changes I have advocated were to come about the situation in relation to school construction could be changed dramatically. It is an appalling fact that in Ireland at the moment—the Board of Works are not authorised to do anything about it—there are 1,200 schools not even equipped with electric current. There are 2,000 schools which this winter are heated by open fires.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will appreciate that the Parliamentary Secretary has no responsibility in the matter.

Mr. Desmond

I accept that and I do not propose to develop the point further. The work of the Office of Public Works in relation to that elementary aspect could be considerably enhanced if there were developments on the lines I have been advocating. I can develop that point on another occasion. In regard to the Government renting office blocks, there has been a justifiable degree of public concern and criticism over many aspects of the renting by Government Departments of privately erected office blocks in Dublin city. I do not entirely accept repeated assertions by the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister for Finance that the net balance of advantage lies in the renting of such premises. I accept that capital resources are scarce but I suggest that we need much more information on the costing basis on which the Government arrive at their decisions, particularly long-term cost benefit analysis which is not given to the House to enable it to arrive at a rational and objective assessment of whether it would be better for a State Department to rent a privately-constructed office block or for the State itself to erect such an office block and use it for its own purposes.

I do not particularly accuse the Parliamentary Secretary, as he is new to this post, but the Government themselves have been less than frank with the House about some of the arrangements—putting it politely—that they have entered into with various private agencies, firms and private construction consortia in the erection of office blocks. For the benefit of the House therefore, I demand considerably more information than we have been given today. This is absolutely essential.

I welcome the statement by the Parliamentary Secretary in respect of harbour works that, now that the permanent terminal in Dún Laoghaire is working satisfactorily, he is making arrangements to have the work of restoration of the East Pier put in hand next spring. This is generally welcomed.

As regards ports generally, I want again to make the comment that all the piecemeal work done in various harbours and ports in selected areas where the Board of Works have responsibility, pales into bureaucratic farce when there should be in the country—and admittedly the staffs of the Office of Public Works and the various boards could be integrated into it—a national ports authority of a State character which would have direct responsibility for harbour construction work rather than the current mad situation of a bureaucratic, inefficient Dublin Port and Docks Board, responsible for a particular sector and various harbour boards and harbour commissioners throughout the country—laws unto themselves in some respects and responsible in others—and then the Office of Public Works trying to develop areas such as Dún Laoghaire port.

There is a valid case for the exercise of imagination internally in the Department to ensure that we get a national ports authority responsible for construction, for the work of the labour force in these areas and, of course, for decasualising dockers in this process. Therefore, I strongly recommend that to the Minister as a development well worthy of consideration.

I welcome and endorse the comments of the previous speaker in respect of Kilkenny Castle and the giving of it to the nation by Lord Ormonde, who sold the castle to a local committee for a nominal sum. As one who has visited the picture gallery in the west wing of this castle I believe that when it is opened to the public at the end of 1970 we shall have acquired yet another aspect of our national heritage for the Irish people as a whole. While in Kilkenny a local committee purchased the castle for a nominal sum I recommend that in these areas generally there should be greater involvement of the local community. I am rather nervous that where monuments of this nature are taken over by the Office of Public Works and responsibility assumed by them they are put into operation almost on a faceless basis for the benefit of the public with very little local involvement in the form of local committees being consulted. While this might involve the Office of Public Works in long arguments with local people as to the best form of development, you would be fostering local pride in monuments and historic institutions and acting in the overall interests of the people as a whole.

Equally, I endorse Deputy Begley's request to take Innisfallen Island into public ownership. There should be urgent negotiations between the American, Mr. McShane, and Bord Fáilte and the Department to bring this magnificent piece of our heritage into public ownership. Likewise, the Office of Public Works should assume from the State in the event of its structure not changing, much greater authority and responsibility for bringing into public ownership various public amenities, more public amenity areas and more monument areas for the general benefit. Many of these areas are still closed to the people, to the children of the country. Many river and foreshore areas, many monument areas are closed and this is quite scandalous. I, therefore, urge the Government to take much greater initiative in this matter even though they may, in some respects, impinge on the so-called sacred right of private property when, in fact, national community trust for such land and such areas is of far greater importance for future development.

I am also pleased to note the examination by the Office of the feasibility of a blind people's centre in one of the Dublin parks. This will be welcomed very strongly by the House and I am also pleased to note that an area would be set aside where blind people could move at ease and where there would be special seats provided and special amenities such as flowers identified by smell and other flowers identified by name plates in braille. I congratulate the Office of Public Works on that development and I strongly recommend that the results of the feasibility study and investigations should be forwarded to other local authorities in the country to enable them to consider the introduction of similar centres. I suggest Cork and Kilkenny, for example, as two areas where this work could begin almost immediately.

I must now become somewhat critical in dealing with a matter which has obtained certain publicity of late, namely, the Hume Street-St. Stephen's Green development. I am appalled by the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary in the matter. While I appreciate that he himself has no direct responsibility for it and is merely speaking in the light of decisions already taken by the Government prior to his taking office, nevertheless I suggest to him and the Government that, in the year of European conservation in which the Government proposes to take special action this very anticonservation decision of the Government is to be greatly deplored. It is blatantly anticonservation and quite contrary to the stated desire of the planning officers of Dublin Corporation who were over-ridden by the Minister for Local Government on — I suggest — spurious grounds and, on this basis, I think the Government should now reconsider their approach and realise that this area is well worthy of preservation.

There is little point in disputing that, notwithstanding the very careful statement of the Parliamentary Secretary, all the indications are that the principal beneficiary of this disgraceful decision of the Government will be the Green Property Company Limited as they are obviously in a clear position to make a far superior offer since they now own the rest of the adjoining cleared sites in the area. Therefore, I suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary's speech has been much less than frank and very much open to criticism. I suggest also that the figure of £40,000 given for essential restoration work on these two buildings represents the absolute total maximum in terms of development.

Mr. Lemass

The Estimate is a year old now.

Mr. Desmond

It may be a year old——

Mr. Lemass

It is probably more now.

Mr. Desmond

In respect of these two buildings, the alleged elimination of dry rot and the bringing into the building of new lighting and heating and the total re-wiring might all add up to £40,000 but I suggest that for £10,000 dry rot could be got rid of in both buildings.

Mr. Lemass

We have had experience in the Castle and reconstruction of this nature is very expensive.

Mr. Desmond

I have no doubt of that whatever, but the preservation of our national heritage, and more particularly the preservation of one of the most important elements of our inheritance of 18th century architecture in Dublin city is important, in my opinion. I suggest that the cost of the re-wiring, redecorating and the introduction of new heating of other aspects could quite easily be spread over a period of two, three or four years, and I have no doubt whatever that on that basis these two buildings could be preserved.

Therefore, I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to reconsider the Government's decision on this matter. He now has a proposal before him from the chairman of An Taisce that the Government should agree to give these two properties by special sale or by long lease to this national organisation which has flourished in the past 12 months in terms of development and which, by and large, is a responsible body. That proposal which is now before the Government is most worthy of serious consideration. The decision to sell these two houses is to be deplored and I would strongly suggest that in this year of conservation it is an elementary aspect and worthy of consideration by the Government.

I do not want to delay Deputy Tunney who has been waiting patiently for the past two or three weeks to get in on this Estimate. I would suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that the Office of Public Works in, I would hope, close consultation with the Department of Local Government, should ensure that the environmental heritage of our people, as represented by ancient monuments and by scenic areas, should not be desecrated any further by the rash of advertising hoardings of a gross commercial nature which disfigure many of our national parks and areas close to them, and many of our national monuments and, indeed, many of our foreshores and river banks.

There is a need to ensure that the elementary aesthetic values of the country in respect of these areas are preserved. I would urge that whether they are petrol station signs, or commercial hoardings with advertising signs, or neon signs of any kind, the most stringent of controls should be put into operation. I would commend to the Minister what has happened in many European countries in respect of the conservation of public areas for recreational or cultural development. All this must certainly merit everincreasing attention from the Government. It is long overdue.

I want to make a point now in relation to Leinster House and it is a point which I consider to be of some importance now that one has become, for a short time at any rate, a member of this elevated club. The areas surrounding Leinster House should, perhaps, be reconsidered by the Government. I would strongly suggest that there is no valid reason why Members of this House should perpetually have to come in through the back door. The main entrance to Leinster House should be the entrance which was originally designed as the main entrance, namely, the extremely fine entrance to this building, which members of the public do not see and which Members of the House know is in an area of very heavy traffic in Dublin city. The whole building would be much more attractive if we had the entrance in Merrion Square as the official entrance to Leinster House. Indeed, I may say that this was the case when the late President Kennedy was in Dublin. It was through that entrance that he visited this House. It would mean much more work for the Office of Public Works but it would make this building much more attractive.

To develop, if I may say so with no sense of sarcasm, the aesthetic cultural sense of Deputies and of the public visiting this House, we should obtain some paintings on loan from the National Gallery—which no one in this House ever seems to visit, with due respect to my colleagues. The bare bureaucratic rooms of the three parties could be brightened and certainly made more attractive if we had some of our heritage of paintings on display on loan from the National Gallery. These are two suggestions which I think are worthy of consideration by the Office of Public Works.

I should like to repeat the plea which I made in respect of the Department of Lands and the Forestry Division for a national pension and mortality scheme. This should be introduced as a matter of urgency for workers in the Office of Public Works rather than the miserly and sparse gratuity scheme which is in operation in that sector. There is a great deal of internal cynicism amongst the staffs of the Office of Public Works because they see the different levels of treatment on the different levels of staff by the Government. Therefore, I would commend very strongly to the Parliamentary Secretary that elementary social parity of conditions of employment should be brought into that sector as a matter of urgency.

In conclusion I would hope that when we assemble this time next year to consider this Estimate and the sub-estimate related to it, the Parliamentary Secretary will have been given a new role in the Government. I should like to see him involved in a department of public services together with his colleagues now representing him in this House. We should have a completely new department of public services here with a realignment and a reinvigoration of the Office of Public Works. Those are my comments on the Estimate. I congratulate the Parliamentary Secretary on a very comprehensive and competent report. Indeed, I congratulate him on his general approach to the whole range of matters affecting members of this House. He has certainly been very helpful in those matters.

Mr. Tunney

Níl sé ar intinn agam oiread sin a rá ach tá súil agam ach claoi go hiomlán le pointe amháin ar na meastacháin seo go dtabharfaí níos mó aire dhó.

I intend to confine myself exclusively, with one short exception to which I will refer later on, to one matter in this Estimate. It has been said by earlier speakers that on occasions like this one should avoid the attraction of speaking on something which might be purely local. In so far as we do not all honour that, I do not feel all that concerned. However, while the matter about which I intend to speak may appear local, it certainly has a metropolitan and, indeed, national significance. I speak about the Phoenix Park or, as Dublin people correctly call it, "the park."

I would avail of the opportunity to compliment the Board of Works, the officials, the staff and the superintendent of the Phoenix Park for the manner in which hitherto they have succeeded in blending with the natural beauty of the park the scientific information which they have in the matter of development. We have there a park which is unique not in Ireland but in Europe. I would wish the park to retain its present appearance, its present characteristics, and in so far as I see slight developments which cause me some concern. I speak about them.

There is no need for me to remind the Members of the House and the people of the Board of Works of the important role, apart from aesthetic considerations, which the Phoenix Park plays in the lives of our people, particularly the people of Dublin, and when I say Dublin I mean the county, because with modern development and progress as we call it, we have now reached the extraordinary position that Dubliners can no longer go to places like Churchtown, Palmerstown, Rathcoole, shortly, and Blanchardstown, for a breath of fresh air, and now find it necessary to move back towards the city to avail of that urge which we all feel for fresh air, freedom of movement and a place to go picnicking.

I would be concerned, therefore, about one or two developments which have occurred in the Phoenix Park whereby certain commercial establishments have arisen. It may be shown that these establishments are supplying a very important service, that they constitute a very definite attraction for the tourist, but in so far as their activities tend to lessen the freedom hitherto enjoyed by the people who frequent the park, it is a matter that should be watched. I am talking about riding schools. I understand that Bord Fáilte is very anxious that these schools should exist. In so far as they supply a need for home people and for visitors, they might be encouraged but in so far as they cut across the natural right of the person in Dublin—I do not talk about the ordinary person in Dublin; we are all ordinary people—to enjoy the park, it is a matter which should be watched; and in so far as it savours of the Phoenix Park being used for commercial purposes, it is a matter which should be watched.

I speak in those terms while, at the same time, I am friendly with some of the people who are engaged in this activity. I do not say they should be stopped but that a section of the park should be set aside for these people and that certain restrictions should be put on them, especially on a Sunday morning when parents are out with their young children walking in the park, as is their entitlement, when they may see advancing towards them ten or 12 horses, in some cases ridden by inexperienced riders. This impinges on the right of the person using the park and should be controlled or curtailed, but it certainly should not be allowed to develop any more than it has to date.

Again, in this connection I speak on another matter to which I cannot offer any solution. In this age of concrete and tarmacadam, in this age of the superstructure, in this age when we talk about retaining our Georgian houses, I share with all the Members of this House, I am sure, the satisfaction of viewing the serenest and most tranquil scene of a beast browsing and a horse moving through the Phoenix Park. Nevertheless, the matter of the cattle in the park is something to which the Board of Works must look. I do not know exactly how many cattle they cater for during the six months' grazing, but in the last year especially there have been at least 20 accidents arising from the fact that people from the country, or maybe Dubliners, are not expecting in the dark of the night or on roads that are not all that well lighted, a beast to jump out suddenly. This will present a new problem to the park superintendent, an excellent man, in the matter of what he can do with the grass in the event of its not being grazed. I am not suggesting that we should discontinue the facilities afforded to farmers or other people to put cattle in the park, but I am concerned that it endangers the lives of the people who normally use the park, especially at night time. In a place like the park I am always reluctant to suggest any change, and having seen the type of lampstandard which we have had the misfortune to get in the city of Dublin, I would be slow to suggest that we should have new lamp-standards in the Phoenix Park, but I do suggest that the lighting should be improved.

Would it be feasible, in this connection for the board to widen the roads, especially the by-roads in the park? The by-laws do not permit a person to park a car on the greenery and he has no option but to park on the road. Some of the roads are quite narrow and I think without affecting the general pattern in the park, we could afford to knock a yard off these by-roads on either side making the park a very pleasant place for all of us who enjoy it so much.

I should like to compliment the park superintendent and his staff for the work they are doing. They are people about whom we hear very little and as they are employees of the Board of Works we are often very ready to criticise them. I do not know whether it was a local or central decision to reduce the staff on the gates. It is vital that the park gates be manned because of the usage which the park is getting. The Board of Works policy is that the number of men engaged in manning the gates must be reduced. We have a situation in the park at the moment where some gates are not manned at all. These gatemen were able to watch and report on any doubtful person who might enter the park and on the entry of commercial vehicles not normally allowed in the park. I am at a loss to know the reasons for the decision not to man the gates and the Parliamentary Secretary might explain the reasons behind it.

I should like to compliment the Board on the manner in which the park has been managed. I hope, as custodians of the park, they will continue to look upon it as a place where young and old, rich and poor may go and enjoy themselves for half an hour or half a day without being charged anything. If they continue to watch the park as they have been doing it will continue to grow in wonder and beauty and will be a centre to which people, not only from this country, but from Europe will be attracted.

I end on what I hope will not be taken as a political note. References have already been made to staff. I admire Deputy Coughlan's references. He reminded us of how difficult it was for people sitting on carpets to appreciate the hardship, trials and labours of those who may be outdoors. I share Deputy Coughlan's concern and because of that I feel compelled to refer to the references made by Deputy Keating about the staff of this House. I am not saying he made an attack on them but he referred to the dust which had not been removed from the venetian blinds and to the dust and papers which had not been removed from his room and from the lift. In an effort to suggest aesthetical refinements, Deputy Keating overlooked a very important point, as far as I am concerned, he forgot that he was reflecting on the quality of the work done by the lady workers in this building.

When Deputy Keating and I are happy, snug and comfortable in our own beds in our own homes, the ladies who perform these duties are already on their buses or on foot making for this establishment. In a contribution where he castigated the Board of Works because of the type of furniture provided in an office where he worked, because in Abbotstown as against Moore Park they did not have paintings and flowers, it was remiss of him to reflect on the character of the ladies looking after this establishment. Perhaps I am being mean towards Deputy Keating, I would have preferred him to be here to hear what I am saying but I hope, if he gets an opportunity, he will withdraw this remark. I do feel that there should be a certain esprit de corps when making complaints about workers in front of their boss.

Mr. Taylor

There is a substantial decrease of £414,000 in this Estimate and this decrease indicates to us, bearing in mind the reduced amount of activity, the reduced manpower which can be employed because of the reduced value of money, that we can expect even less activity in the Board of Works in the coming year than we experienced in the preceding year.

We have got to get our priorities right in relation to the expenditure of this money. We should consider the most urgent demands and where expenditure would bring the greatest benefit. I would like to know if we are making proper efforts to have a survey made in the areas where the demand is greatest. We notice that the sum of £50,000 has been allocated for arterial drainage. I can see practically nothing allocated for arterial drainage in County Clare which would embrace the catchment area of the River Fergus. Over the past few years it has been forcibly stressed that this area is one that has been neglected. The local authority and the elected Deputies have met on various occasions to try to impress on the Board of Works the necessity to reduce the flooding which has occurred there over a period of years and which has caused considerable damage. Out of £50,000 set aside for arterial drainage survey there is only a token sum of £100 included for the Fergus this year, for this purpose, a reduction of £1,100 from last year, and I do not think we can expect much activity from that. It seems that the efforts we made to impress on the Board of Works the necessity to give priority to a scheme where a town and its people have been flooded, have failed. There is something drastically wrong here. At every high tide and during a continuous period of rain, say over 24 hours, the merchants of Ennis and the householders in the town have to walk about in flooded shops and houses, remove damaged goods and get on to the streets. Can we allow such a state of affairs to continue?

I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to indicate when he intends to take action. I realise that there is a priority list and I know the position of the Fergus catchment area on that list. When there is an emergency, emergency measures must be taken. In 1954, emergency measures were taken in regard to the flooding of the North Strand. The then Minister for Local Government, Deputy Pa O'Donnell, immediately provided for proper liaison between the Departments concerned and charitable organisations and injected a sum of £70,000 to £100,000 for the recoupment of persons whose homes and furniture had been damaged. Similar action should be taken in any town where damage is caused as a result of flooding. That should have been considered in the case of Ennis in view of the fact that no provision has yet been made for a survey there.

A substantial sum has been allocated for the preservation and maintenance of embankments One emergency has occurred in part of west Clare adjacent to the town of Kilkee —a tourist area. Owing to the breaking down of embankments on the estuary of the Shannon west of Blackweir bridge, small farmers have experienced constant flooding of their land at very high tide. Their incomes have been reduced as a result. Production has been reduced and they are impeded from taking part in schemes within that pilot area designed to increase production. The Parliamentary Secretary should now divert a small sum to that area for the carrying out of a survey, as a start. Later, if not this year, an adequate amount of the £220,000 provided for small schemes could be allocated to set in motion the necessary work for the prevention of flooding.

We would probably be described as iconoclasts if we were to compare the necessity to preserve national monuments with the necessity to carry out drainage and other such work. There is an increase this year of £25,000 in the provision for the preservation of national monuments. That sum, of course, is necessary as monuments have been neglected. However, having regard to the reduction of £400,000 in the Estimate one wonders if it is wise to spend the amount provided on national monuments within the present year in view of the emergencies such as I have cited that have arisen in certain areas. We all admire beauty. We all would like to see cultural development. However, these matters must compete with other matters that require urgent attention. I would prefer to see a small part of the amount allocated for national monuments diverted towards the relief of persons in distress. I do not know if that can be done but I would suggest that the Parliamentary Secretary should give it some consideration.

We notice a marked improvement within the past few years in bringing schools up to standard. The fact cannot be ignored that a very powerful organisation, the INTO, in 1967, put pressure on the Minister for Education to have schools brought up to proper standard. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to consider the question of providing schools for mentally handicapped children. The necessity for such schools has been overlooked.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Chair does not want to interrupt the Deputy but would point out that the Office of Public Works has no responsibility for determining where schools should be built. It is merely a building agency. It is the Department of Education that is responsible for that determination.

Mr. Taylor

Thank you. The Vote includes a provision for the maintenance of this House. There are many and varied views as to how expenditure should be incurred. If one takes the attitude that this House is not to be the showpiece of the nation, that money that might be available should be spent elsewhere in preference to being spent on this House, that is fair enough but, if one accepts that the Parliament House is the showpiece of the nation, where people send their representatives, where constituents visit Deputies, where tourists come daily, one would expect that much greater attention should be given to the cultural background, furnishings, et cetera, of the House. I understand that from time to time we have to accept “seconds” for this House, that carpets, furnishings and so on, have come from Áras an Uachtaráin to this House. Our manufacturers deserve better from us. If we are to be proud of Irish manufacturers, this is the place where Irish-made furnishings and carpets should be displayed. This House should not be regarded as a place to which to issue “seconds” as they are called in the trade. When it comes to decoration we should, I think, seek the advice of the College of Art in this and in the hanging of any pictures. That advice should be of great benefit. These are just a few suggestions.

Many aspects of the activities of the Office of Public Works have different meanings for people in different counties, but I think drainage captures the attention of all. I urge the Parliamentary Secretary to give immediate attention to remedial action, particularly in those areas to which I have specifically referred.

Mr. Andrews

May I take this opportunity of congratulating the Parliamentary Secretary on his appointment? Since his accession he has put a great deal of vigour into the work he is called upon to do. He has been most willing to see me whenever I have any problem for his attention and he has dealt with any problem I have brought him with commendable speed. I appreciate that. His staff are always accessible and, having gained access, one appreciates the courtesy one receives.

This debate could be described as a local debate, on one hand, and a national debate on the other. The Board of Works operates in practically all constituencies. There is then the cultural arm, as it were, which deals with national monuments, national parks, and so on. I want now to deal with a national problem. It relates to Leinster House. There have been many criticisms of what has been and what has not been done here. Quite frankly, when I came here in 1965 I was overawed. I had never been in an environment like this before. I was not used to the spaciousness and to the beauty of the place. I have seen nothing to change my mind since. Many of us were brought up in houses far less glamorous than Leinster House and I think we should be glad to come in here, on any account, instead of throwing out criticisms willy-nilly.

Many people have praised the work done in the foyer, particularly the paintwork. It is a really beautiful blue. From the point of view of a Deputy, I think the effect is psychologically good. The chandeliers were made in this country. In Room 106, in which many committees sit, we have one of the most beautiful Waterford glass chandeliers I have ever seen. It is a magnificent example of Irish craft. We should be proud of it. There is another equally good in the ante-chamber to the Seanad. These are the things we want the public to see when they visit Leinster House. The Seanad chamber is one of the most beautiful in this or any other country. The ceiling is awe-inspiring aesthetically.

With regard to the criticisms made by Deputy Keating about dust and papers, and so on, Deputy Tully dealt at some length with how this kind of criticism reflects on those whom he and his party allege they represent, the workers. If Deputy Keating were getting his own house decorated would there not be dust and papers around the place? That is not unusual when work is being carried out around a house. I think the dust here was kept to a minimum. I was in and out during the summer and I certainly did not notice a great deal of dust about. This kind of criticism is unfair. It reflects on the workers, on the electricians putting in the badly needed installations, and on the cleaning personnel who come in here at all hours in the morning to make the place more comfortable for us. We should keep these in mind when we are tempted to throw out criticisms willy-nilly. It is neither fair nor reasonable to criticise knowing the kind of work that has to be done to improve the amenities for us. There are still areas which remain undone. I imagine they will not be done until we go home for the Christmas vacation.

The personnel of this House receive very little praise from us. The ushers could be described as the "unsung heroes" of this Chamber. They do a tremendous amount of work for Deputies. They go to a great deal of trouble to find out where Deputies are when constituents come looking for them. It would be very difficult to be critical of people who spend most of their working day on their feet, as these men do, and I should like now to pay special tribute to the ushers, the superintendent, and the Captain of the Guard for the manner in which they deal with people coming in here and the manner in which they deal with us.

Mr. R. Barry

I agree entirely with what the Deputy says. I neglected to mention these people myself and it is only right and proper that we should.

Mr. Tully

I think most of us pay tribute when the Houses of the Oireachtas are being discussed.

Mr. Andrews

Quite frankly, we seem to hear nothing but bad news. A little good news now and then can be quite a tonic

Mr. Lemass

I think the Ceann Comhairle and the Clerk are the people entitled to these compliments, not the Office of Public Works.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I think the Chair should point out that we are discussing the Estimate for the Office of Public Works.

Mr. Andrews

I have, perhaps, digressed a little but this seemed to be an opportune time to introduce a little good news to leaven all the bad news we hear from time to time.

I agree with the Deputy who said that perhaps we could bring some of these beautiful pictures from the various galleries and put them on display at Leinster House. This is one of the showpieces of the nation and it is only right that we should make as much use of our heritage as we possibly can.

One area in which there is room for criticism is with regard to the central heating in this House. It is far from central heating that many of us, myself in particular, were reared, but now that it is a way of life we must live with it. I bring up this subject by way of constructive criticism rather than by destructive criticism. I do not know how the system is regulated, whether it is regulated with regard to weather conditions or if it is regulated according to some statute within the Board of Works which demands that it is switched on and off at a particular time. If the latter is correct, it does not take into account the health of the Deputies.

For instance, I find it very warm today. Maybe I am a thick-blooded young man but, nevertheless, the central heating should be adjusted. I find it rather oppressive and other Deputies also have complained of finding it oppressive, so I ask the Board of Works, through the Chair, to do something about regulating the temperature. Those of us who must be here need to have the correct temperature in the place if we are to continue to survive. Several Deputies have complained of headaches that have been brought on by the heat.

Mr. Geoghegan

Maybe they were suffering from old age.

Mr. Andrews

No, some of the younger Members complained of this particular malady that has been brought about by the central heating system. Maybe we are becoming soft and that people of, for instance, Deputy Tully's generation were of a hardier type but I do not think that is so.

Mr. Tully

The heating system will not stop them from coming in here.

Mr. Andrews

I hope it will not. I shall deal now with a few problems relating to my own constituency and, in particular, to Dún Laoghaire Harbour. However, first of all I wish to mention the bird sanctuary in Booterstown in relation to which I put down a question some time ago. This sanctuary is being gradually eroded by buildings and so on and by the gradual progression of car parking facilities. I ask the Parliamentary Secretary to ensure that this bird sanctuary of ours is maintained as a conservatory for wild fowl. It may seem a little strange for me to bring up that matter but it is my desire that the sanctuary that has existed in Booterstown for some time will continue to exist there.

The next matter on which I should like to comment is in relation to Garda stations in Blackrock and other areas in my constituency. We complain about the conditions in which we operate at Leinster House but other people have to work in conditions that are not always as they should be. I am bringing up this subject of Garda stations on my own initiative because in my capacity as a public representative it is necessary for me to call to the Garda stations in my constituency, some of which are only second-rate stations, particularly those at Blackrock, Deansgrange, Shankill and Cabinteely. The one in Shankill is, in my opinion, a traffic hazard. This station is situate on the main Stillorgan-Foxrock-Bray road but there are no parking facilities whatsoever outside the station.

I notice that the Parliamentary Secretary is having renovated the station at Dundrum, my own home village. On behalf of the gardaí at Dundrum, I thank him for that, and if he could relate that type of progress to three or four other stations in my constituency, it would be greatly appreciated.

Having dealt with the Garda stations, I now wish to comment on Dún Laoghaire Harbour. This is one of the best man-made harbours in Europe. It is second to none. A lot of money has been vested in the development of the harbour. There is an excellent esplanade along the East Pier and we now have the car-ferry terminal for which the Board of Works must take a lot of credit. A first-class job was done in this respect. We also have what we call the Coal Quay and to the left of that there are facilities for speed boating and so on. There is also an esplanade for young couples who may be wheeling prams and, indeed, for many other people who walk along there to take the air, which is very invigorating.

With regard to the East Pier, the Parliamentary Secretary deserves credit for making it clear that the temporary car-ferry terminal is to be removed and that the East Pier is to be returned to its original form. This was the assurance given by the Parliamentary Secretary's predecessor, Deputy James Gibbons, Minister for Defence, at the time that the temporary ferry was being erected. We are grateful to him and to the present Parliamentary Secretary for bringing about that undertaking.

The new car ferry terminal is one of the biggest success stories of this country or, for that matter, of Britain. It has brought tremendous importance to the area. One can take one's family there at a week-end and see the boats coming in and going out with absolute safety. This is a wonderful structure that was put up in a very short space of time and there is no doubt but that it has been a great boost to the constituency.

I want to make just one final point about Dún Laoghaire harbour which, indeed, can be described as the gateway to the east coast or one of the gateways to the east coast of this country. It is only now becoming recognised as one of the premier tourist centres on the east coast. It is in this context that I have been dealing with the harbour. Moving then, from the car ferry terminal to what is called locally the "Coal Quay", there are 15 trawlers there run by young men who saw what can be done in terms of fishing and fisheries generally. In the past five or six years, the fleet has grown from seven boats to one of 15 boats at the present day.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.