Before the House adjourned last night I informed Deputies that the industrial dispute in the clerical section of the ESB looked like being settled. While I was speaking the dispute was, in fact, settled which means that the full clerical complement of the staff of the ESB will be back to work immediately. Deputies raised the valid point about the large bills which had accumulated in regard to domestic consumers because of the strike. I assured the House that the ESB had already given consideration as to precisely how this problem could be met with the least possible burden on consumers. They are at the moment working on a scheme to have payments made on these bills by instalments. This appears to me to be a practical solution to the problem which has grown over the past six months owing to the clerical dispute which has now, happily, been settled.
Committee on Finance. - Vote 41 — Transport and Power (Resumed).
The Minister has poured oil on troubled waters.
Deputy Burke along with other Deputies raised this matter in the House. Deputy Kavanagh raised the question of the preservation of the scenic amenities in connection with the new pumped storage plant in course of construction by the ESB in County Wicklow. I want to assure him that the preservation of the scenic amenities there are all-important. The ESB have employed landscaping experts to advise them on how best to fit in this very important work of national importance with the undoubted scenic attractions of the area so as not to spoil the tourist attraction of that part of County Wicklow. I have gone down personally to see the excellent practical work being done to preserve the landscape in proper form.
Deputy Kavanagh also inquired about Arklow Harbour and I want to assure him that in the current Estimate there is a grant for the repair of the north and south piers and further practical work is under consideration, practical work that will enable the harbour to deal with the main business going in and out. Almost the total business at the moment is the business deriving from the Nítrigin Éireann Teoranta plant.
Deputy Dowling raised the matter of the pre-1963 CIE pensioners. I have met a deputation of these pensioners and, at the moment, I am discussing with the Minister for Finance details of how we can meet their claim and I hope that either he or I will have more to say about that fairly shortly.
Deputy Dowling and other speakers raised the question of co-ordination of effort between CIE, the B and I and British Railways. I referred to this last night. I want to assure the House again that this question is of very urgent importance on the side of freight and live cattle. In both these spheres there is a certain amount of duplication. I propose as far as the cross-channel duplication is concerned to eliminate it by working out arrangements whereby British Railways and the B and I and CIE will apportion their container business and their other freight business between them on a rational basis so as to ensure that there will be segments of the business apportioned to each company and appropriate arrangements made.
And cost controlled? They will not be in competition then.
This is a very important matter. At present there is wasteful competition between two of our own State bodies—a certain amount of wasteful competition in two of our own State bodies and a British body which is the sole body in Britain. Furthermore, apart from the Irish Sea aspect, I am concerned about it here at home. The chairman of the B and I referred to this recently at a function in Limerick. He talked about the necessity for having a national freight policy here at home. I have discussed this matter with him and discussions are going on at the moment between my Department, B and I, CIE and British Railways with a view to evolving so far as we are concerned here at home a freight policy which will eliminate duplication and competition. It does not make sense to see two State companies engaged in freight here at home in competition with each other and duplicating each other's facilities in regard to freight transport.
Monopolies do not make sense either.
These are two State companies.
You get the dearest one then, not the cheapest.
At any rate, it is being investigated at the moment. We have no final solution yet but we are looking into it very closely. One other aspect of the freight problem here at home is one to which I should refer, that is, the pending legislation in regard to the liberalisation of road transport. This will ensure that the competition element of which Deputies speak will continue. Deputies are aware that we have had road transport legislation since 1933. This legislation has been amended in several enactments since then and, as it now stands, it has come in for considerable, and I think legitimate, criticism.
The fact of the matter is that in regard to cattle, sheep and pigs the Acts have been practically eroded by widespread and flagrant evasion which has been condoned by people engaged in the transportation and the buying and selling of livestock. It is a particular type of business that is not suited to a national transport monopoly or any big organisation by reason of the whole structure of farming in this country, with small farms and medium-sized farms, and the whole structure of fairs and marts and the type of intimate personal dealing that goes on in regard to the transportation of livestock. It is quite clear that a national undertaking is not suited to it. You cannot containerise livestock as you can freight.
The future of containerisation lies with the big organisations that we are seeking to rationalise in regard to such traffic, the organisations I have mentioned, B and I and CIE, but, with regard to the day-to-day haulage of livestock, this is peculiarly and particularly a matter that should be thrown open completely to private enterprise. This is what we propose to do in the legislation which I will have before the House inside the next month. We propose to take cattle, sheep and pigs out of the whole scope of road transport restrictions and to have the haulage of this livestock completely open, without any control or licence whatever.
Completely or gradually?
Completely on the passage of the legislation which I would hope to see pass through the House inside the next three or four months.
Does the Minister anticipate any difficulty for the road freight section of CIE as a result of the proposed liberalisation? What about the unions?
I am having discussions with the trade unions about this. I mentioned earlier the widespread evasion that already exists to the extent that CIE haul only 6 per cent of the cattle, sheep and pigs in the country and 94 per cent of the haulage of cattle, sheep and pigs at the present point in time is undertaken either by licensed hauliers or by people evading the existing law.
The point I want to establish is that there is no cause for alarm.
There is no cause for alarm. The main section with which CIE are concerned and with which the trade unions were concerned was bloodstock. There is a special section in CIE which engages in the specialised haulage of bloodstock which is a highly sensitive organised expensive type of haulage by reason of the value of the animals involved and the sensitivity of bloodstock. CIE have a particular section devoted to this with employees assigned completely to it. That is why we are not including horses in the liberalisation and CIE and the licensed hauliers will continue to be the only people engaged in the haulage of horses.
For Miss Cossie?
The point is that bloodstock owners like a specialised service of this kind and they are at a certain level at which they can remunerate such a service.
(Cavan): At the expense of the Racing Board.
We are making, as it were, a virtue of necessity and recognising a reality to a large extent. The other aspect of the proposed liberalising legislation is the fact that we are now eliminating all the restrictions that have existed heretofore in regard to counties, in regard to areas, in regard to mileage limitations, in regard to commodity restrictions and in regard to weight restrictions. All of these varying categories of licences, over 900 in all of varying kinds, are now being eliminated and we will have one single form of a 26 County licence for all licensees. There will be no limitations, therefore, of area or county. There will be no limitations of commodity and no limitation in regard to weight so that, whereas at the moment there are varying types of licences from a 26 Counties one down to a one county one, we will now have one single form of haulage licence which will be given automatically to all the 900 licensed hauliers throughout the country.
(Cavan): Does that mean that a haulier who at the moment is confined to carrying one specific commodity, under the new arrangement will have an open licence to carry anything he likes?
The Deputy is correct.
(Cavan): I am glad to hear that.
It will mean considerable simplicity in a field that has been very complex over the years and has caused a lot of complicated problems and it will release manpower from the Garda Síochána for other more important work in the criminal field.
(Cavan): When is this likely to happen?
The draft of the legislation is practically completed and I hope to have it before the House inside a month and it will probably be law within three or four months after that. Deputy Belton in a very constructive contribution——
I suppose in the meantime the Garda will not be pressing too hard on those people.
We have taken steps.
Thank you.
(Cavan): The Garda are so overworked and understaffed at the moment that there are many things they are unable to attend to.
This will be a help in that direction. Deputy Belton raised the question of expenditure by Irish people holidaying abroad. We have figures for 1968 in this respect. Irish people spent an estimated £36 million abroad compared with £93 million spent by visitors here in 1968, leaving a credit balance of £57 million.
Deputy P. Belton also raised the question of car ferry tourism. The fact is that this form of tourism has been the outstanding growth area in recent years. I gave figures last night but as Deputy Belton is here I shall repeat them. In 1964, we had 30,000 cars coming in here. In 1969 we had 114,000. The projection for 1972 is 170,000 cars. This is the great growth area in Irish tourism at present.
My point was that visitors should be able to have bed and breakfast arranged but should be able also to move out and have cheaper meals or snacks available. This would increase the number still further.
Along the roads?
Yes, along the roads and in the villages.
I referred to this last night too. I have asked Bord Fáilte to examine the idea of having public houses with catering and restaurant facilities at strategic points on the main routes so that people could move out and have a straightforward meal easily in reasonable surroundings. Bord Fáilte are at present preparing a plan for the whole country on this line of thought.
Will the Minister give grants to the public houses?
Oh, not to all public houses.
What about toilet facilities and other things?
What I am thinking about is strictly the catering and meals aspect. My concern, as Minister in charge of tourism, is the catering and meals aspect. I feel it should be encouraged as far as public houses located in key centres are concerned.
Deputy Burke has many friends who are publicans.
Deputy Burke was very strong on this point. He devoted a considerable part of his speech to this matter and indeed quoted for me the target for tourism in 1980 which is £200 million. We have reached a target for 1960 to 1970 of £100 million. I see no reason why we should not double that.
Great things are happening in our time.
The Minister has mentioned public houses. What about other houses?
It is a question of devising an appropriate scheme. Where meal facilities are made available some encouragement or advice should be given by the tourist board towards doing this. This will fit into the pattern of the motoring tourist. That is the outstanding area for us to exploit. We have excellent roads particularly in the scenic areas of the south west, the west and the north west. What we need to do is to get more cars on these roads, more people coming to spend the type of holiday to which our climate and our scenery are suited and the type of holiday that can be extended outside the traditional holiday period to an around the year holiday.
(Cavan): And with that in view, encourage the Minister for Agriculture to be more restrained in his speeches.
This is an irrelevancy.
Deputy Begley raised the point that the British tourist is more important than the North American tourist. This is like the matter of the small hotel as against the large hotel. I pointed out last night that there is no conflict between the small and the large hotel. We need both. We need a range of hotel accommodation to suit the varying tastes and types of tourists that we hope to attract to this country.
The Minister will agree that the English tourist is the best money spender of all?
I have got figures here which show that while the British tourist is all important the fact is that the area which can be stimulated best, the growth area where the potential lies, in North America. We can run the two markets and indeed Bord Fáilte budgeting is geared to running the two markets as their two principal markets but the North American tourist expansion has been substantial. In 1969, the number rose by 21 per cent from 183,000 to 218,000 and revenue was almost £20 million. All the forecasts are that this will be an expanding market in which the growth potential is enormous. I say this without in any way taking from the British market which is our real bread and butter and will always be so but we can run the two together and make full utilisation of both.
I agree with that but we have lost many of the English visitors by charging too high prices and we should try to get those back by having cheaper hotels and restaurants.
That is a part of it, I agree.
Deputy Andrews talked about the importance of retaining tourists in Dún Laoghaire and the matter of hotel accommodation there with particular reference to the proposed Ostlanna Iompair Éireann hotel for that centre. There have been difficulties there as the Deputy knows but I am pursuing the matter with CIE with a view to having the hotel built by them in Dún Laoghaire. I feel it is very necessary and proper that one should be built there.
I am grateful to the Minister.
I said last night that CIE are in such a strong position with their expanding development and high profit rate that they are contemplating going public and raising capital on the public market. I am certain that their financial structure is such that they would attract such funds and go into greater hotel expansion.
Can they themselves decide to go public without coming before this House?
Yes.
Without coming here?
Yes.
Surely they were financed by the State?
They are self-remunerative. They are not dependent on us now.
I know they are not but originally they got money from the State.
Yes, but they are self-remunerative at this point in time.
If they got money from the State at some time they just cannot go on the market without coming to this House.
I shall look into that but I think they can.
Their assets are extremely valuable.
They are very valuable.
Much more so than on their balance sheet.
They are in a very strong position. I am very keen on this and it applies not alone to CIE but also to the airline who are also a highly commercial competitive company in a very competitive market. They are concerned about providing themselves with a capital structure that will enable them to raise money on the public market too.
If they do, surely they must give back the money they got from the State?
That is another day's work. I grant the Deputy that. We should seek as far as possible to put commercial operations that are under State control into such a financial position that they can go out on the market and collect money outside the money furnished by the taxpayer. This is surely a desirable objective and one that we should aim at for all these commercial State companies. These are the obvious ones because of their sound financial position.
Will the State still retain its shares in these companies?
Yes, and the controlling share. I would not envisage any situation where we would not have the controlling interest in such companies, but they could raise funds by this mechanism.
Deputy Bruton raised the question of store cattle transportation across the Irish sea. That is being discussed at the moment between the B and I and British Railways in great detail.
The question of nuclear energy was also raised by Deputy Bruton. We propose to introduce a Bill to establish a nuclear energy board inside the next three or four months when we can have a full debate on the whole matter.
I think Deputy O'Connor spoke about farmhouse accommodation. This is an expanding field where we now have, in the form of supplementary tourist accommodation outside the hotels, in the region of 9,000 bedrooms or nearly half the number of bedrooms in hotels. Hotel bedrooms number 20,000 while supplementary accommodation bedrooms now number 9,000 which is a phenomenal increase, most of which occurred in the last two or three years.
These are not all farmhouse bedrooms.
No; I was careful to say "supplementary accommodation". The main growth area in that field has been farmhouses but it also applies to houses in villages and towns and so on.
Has the Minister given any consideration to the hours of licensed premises during the tourist season? Perhaps, I am taking the Minister unawares and he may not be able to answer at this stage.
It is a matter for the Minister for Justice and while I have views on it, there are other views, Deputy Foley criticised the fact that buildings were being demolished at Dublin Airport shortly after they had been built, but this is the pattern throughout the world. There is a saying in aviation that all the optimists were pessimists. This is true. Even the most optimistic at every stage of aviation development were pessimists because development has been so fantastic not only in Ireland but throughout the world.
But this building was built when you knew the jumbo jets were coming in.
I was in London Airport the other day and the same thing happened there. Do not try to make a political point out of it.
No, but there was a waste of money.
I have noticed that the last few Deputies to whom the Minister referred were Fianna Fáil Deputies. I am sure other Deputies contributed.
Last night I went painstakingly through a list of Deputies which I have here. I had a very constructive contribution from Deputy O'Leary and it would be well if he would continue on that level. I shall come to him in due course.
The Minister is going systematically through his list.
And Deputy O'Donovan is well aware of it. He was here last night.
Is the Minister aware that Deputy O'Leary was called the biggest windbag in the administrative council at the Labour convention?
The Minister should be allowed to conclude his statement without interruption.
It is important to ensure that airport and terminal facilities will be there for the kind of visitor incursion that will result from the jumbo jet development. With this in view we are going full speed ahead to ensure that Dublin and Shannon will have the facilities to meet the first Irish airlines jumbo jet service in early summer 1971.
Deputy O'Donovan referred to investment grants for ships and anticipated what I was going to say in regard to this, that we must have investment grants for shipping to compete with every other country which is also providing such grants. The expansion of Irish Shipping has been one of the highlights of recent developments in regard to State companies. Irish Shipping are now in a profit-making position and their industrial relations are among the best in shipping companies in the world. Not only in regard to Irish Shipping but to all shipping we feel the minimum we can do is to provide investment grants of the order of 25 per cent to ensure expansion in this field. There is also the fact that our shipyard in Cork is developing and expanding side by side with this developments.
Deputy O'Donovan criticised the fact that there were a number of people on the delegation to the Tokyo tourist conference. I checked on this and found that most of the people present—80 per cent of them—were representative, as I thought, of the hotel and travel industry in this country and were there of their own volition and paid their own expenses, along with the official Bord Fáilte team.
That may be true but it does not say my figure was wrong.
No, the total figure was right but 80 per cent of them were there at their own expense.
How many did Bord Fáilte send of their own officials?
They sent seven. The total was 43. This was big business. There were 35 or 36 people there who were representative of the hotel and travel trade and they were there at their own expense. This is the biggest business in the world at present.
"We heard it before, Joe".
It is a fact of life. It was worth £100 million in 1969-70 and, as Deputy Burke wisely said, it will be worth £200 million in 1980.
Not if it is true that Bord Fáilte are being cut in their grants very considerably.
We got an extra half million pounds for Bord Fáilte to pay their hotel grants, as the Deputy knows, before Christmas. That was sought in the form of a Supplementary Estimate.
Have they not been told that in 1970 their grants will be cut?
Not at all.
I hope that goes on the record.
The Deputy is suffering from hallucinations. I happen to know the facts.
I am a member of the eastern regional tourist board and they have been told that there will be cuts.
Of course, there will be cuts in some directions but we will have increase in the right direction, where they are needed to provide more bedroom accommodation.
Can the Minister say what will be the position in regard to west Cork?
I am not in a position to say until the estimates are finalised but we will bear west Cork very much in mind.
And there is a by-election coming up.
Can the Minister say if the grants will be increased for the year commencing 1st April?
The Minister will not say anything at present. The Deputy had ample time to contribute to this debate over the past month or two.
I contributed to the debate but unfortunately, the Minister was not here at the time.
I am sorry. That is right. I apologise.
I do not want to repeat myself and waste the time of the House. One question—would the Minister receive a deputation from west Cork about these grants?
Of course, I will.
I shall arrange that.
Deputy Timmins raised the matter of Turlough Hill and the importance of the aesthetic aspect being preserved. This is being done. The ESB have hired landscape experts to advice them on how best it can be done.
Deputy O'Leary raised a number of interesting points, one of which was about foreign-owned hotels. He was apprehensive that this development might be undesirable. I assure him that whereas foreign investment is very welcome there is no danger of it becoming a dominant feature of investment in this field. I have checked the figures and the fact is that foreign-owned hotels account for only a small proportion of the total volume of accommodation. Out of a total of 755 hotels only 31 have foreign associations. Of these 31, eight were existing hotels acquired by foreign interests. The remaining 23 are new hotels developed over a number of years.
The Minister will agree that there has been a very large increase in recent years?
I do not regard 31 out of 755 as being unduly high.
How many bedrooms do foreign interests control—do not mind the hotels?
I have not figures for that.
I think you will find that 31 are in the heavyweight class.
We should do everything to encourage investment in the whole hotel field. The main requirement of the tourist industry is more bedrooms, whether in big, medium-sized or small hotels, in guesthouses, farmhouses or in any other from of supplementary accommodation. We require more investment for this purpose. If it is foreign investment, I welcome it provided it does not become an unduly large share of the industry. On these figures, I think we are well short of the danger mark.
As regards new development at present, we have 162 projects in the pipeline at various stages of planning and constructions. Only 14 of these 162 projects have foreign associations. On those figures, I would welcome more external participation and more investment in the hotel industry.
Deputy O'Leary also raised the question of developments by the Dublin Port and Docks Board. He mentioned the Dollymount North Dublin area. What I am saying also applies to the Ringsend South Dublin area. Deputy Moore is also very interested in these areas. Dublin Port and Docks Board are reaching finality in the development of their plan for the port.
We do not know what the plan is.
We expect to have it in May of this year. Dublin Corporation, the planning authority, will have to approve of it. As Minister in charge of port facilities and port developments, I also will be in a position to examine it. Every intention is to ensure a balanced development with full preservation of amenities and open space.
What opportunities will members of the public have in relation to this plan.
It will be made public by the Dublin Port and Docks Board and it will be open to public investigation and comment.
At what stage would it be approved?
Only after full consultation with the public generally. It is a highly sensitive matter affecting our capital city and it will be thrown open to the public for full comment and consideration. This is not a matter that can be decided in an office without full public view and examination.
The Dublin dockers should be given a special voice in this as their livelihood is at stake at the moment.
There is no conflict between preservation affecting Dublin Bay and amenities.
There is to be a public hearing on this whole matter, when it does come.
The newspapers also will have it; there will be total publication of the proposals. The type of industry that would be involved would be a kind to fit into amenity surroundings. There will not be smoke, for example, and other matters of that kind.
We have an assurance that the plans will have ample scrutiny. Present developments are worsening the situation. The reclamation at present proceeding is leading to silting-up in other parts of the bay.
The reclamation orders were made here some years ago. They are proceeding only to the limit of the reclamation provided for in these orders.
The Minister for Industry and Commerce is very concerned that the wishes of his constituents in this matter are met.
I am very concerned about it. We have a great chance here to provided a proper civilised developments which will balance both developments and the preservation of amenities. I do not see any conflict at all between the two developments.
Deputies Barrett and O'Hara were concerned about Shannon Airport and its development. This Government have backed in the past and always will back SFADCO and will have full regard to it as the main factor in ensuring tourist and hotel development in the west, south-west and north-west.
Deputy Joe Lenehan raised the question of the extent to which visitors listed in the tourist figures are really tourists in the sense of coming here as a result of Bord Fáilte promotion— coming here for holiday reasons. An estimation was made of this in 1968. It was assessed then by the Central Statistics Office that of the £93 million income in 1968, direct tourist income was £72 million and £21 million was spent by people coming here for ethnic or business reasons.
Deputy Tunney spoke about noise at Dublin Airport. I am assured that every effort is being made to eliminate the noise of jumbo jets to the greatest extent possible. This is a technical matter to which all the aircraft manufacturing companies are giving tremendous attention. With supersonic development, this will become a factor of even greater importance. I am assured that every effort is being made to silence jumbo jets as far as possible.
I think that covers most of the points that were raised. If there are any other points that Deputies may feel have been overlooked, I shall have a check made through the debate and I shall reply to them.
Would the Minister say a few words about the role of the regional tourism companies from the point of view of the financing of them?
I am very concerned that the local authority should be enabled to give a bigger contribution from their rates to the regional tourism companies. At present there is a limitation on what they can contribute from the rates. In many cases, local authorities come to me because they find themselves prohibited by reason of this limitation on a contribution from the rates. I have taken up the matter with the Minister for Local Government. The local authority should make a greater effort and should be involved to a greater extent in their contribution to the regional tourism companies. The burden on Bord Fáilte central funds is very heavy from the point of view of financing some of these companies. At the moment, some of them are in fact having financial difficulty. This can be eased by raising or eliminating the limitation on what local authorities may contribute.
A number of local authorities have not reached their limit at all. With rising rates, it is awfully difficult to persuade some local authorities to do this, local authorities who do not believe too much in tourism.
That is in non-tourist areas. However, in strong tourist areas local authorities see the advantages on their doorstep and are anxious to contribute a lot more.
Tourist areas in a county may be represented by a small number of councillors. Much more money should be invested by the central authority because tourism is a big money spinner and in proportion to the income therefrom there is not enough being invested by the State.
The whole purpose of the regional tourist idea was to inculcate greater local involvement, greater local participation and so on but you defeat that argument if you start taking all the money out of the Central Fund. That is the logical extension of that.
Not at all.
I do not agree with that. I am all for regional tourist development but I think along with local involvement and local participation there should go a certain degree of local responsibility.
There is, but even so it is not enough. A couple of thousand pounds which a local authority can put in at a maximum is only chicken-feed compared with what should be made available to the regional boards for the work they have to do. They cannot find that money unless the State gives it.
I respectfully suggest the Minister could look into this.
I certainly will.
The Minister has not said anything about rural electrification and the important role it plays for tourism in the west where people are going to cater for tourists.
That is proceeding apace but there is a financial limitation.
There are areas which can contribute to increasing tourism along the west coast.
Would the Minister say something about local authority contributions? If you do not get that through reasonably soon before the rates are struck it will be 1971 before the local authorities can make a contribution.
It will require legislation in this House to enable local authorities to give a greater percentage. That is the trouble. The legislation will not be ready for the coming year, I am afraid.
The Minister did not answer my question about the Aran Islands especially in regard to rural electrification. Would the Minister even write and let me know about this?
I will do that.
Again the Deputy has given me my cue. I am concerned about metropolitan electrification and the point I mentioned was that in the Finglas area, an area where they have what is supposed to be the service laid on, they have not power for cooking or television. I hoped the Minister might have been able to answer that.
Since the Deputy spoke in the House I have taken that matter up with the ESB because I find it inexplicable in urban areas. I know the difficulties in rural areas arise out of financial limitations but in urban areas that should not be the case. I have taken that up with the ESB.
I would like to say, in conclusion, there is one important matter that was touched on in the course of the debate by Deputy O'Donnell in particular, and also by other speakers, and which has been touched on from time to time in this House. I believe we are now reaching a stage where something practical must be done about this matter—that is the accountability of State-sponsored bodies to this and the other House of the Oireachtas. This was touched on in the Devlin Report. The establishment of an audit efficiency unit in the Department of Finance that will be able to measures the activities of the various State boards is included in the Devlin Report recommendations and in that situation I would see, and Devlin says this in his report, no reason why the Public Accounts Committee, that can bring Secretaries of Government Departments before it should not be in a position to bring the chief executives of State-sponsored bodies before it as well.
In this connection I see a distinction between the commercial—and indeed Devlin draws this distinction as well in his report—and the non-commercial State-sponsored bodies in that the degree of detailed accountability in my view should be greater in the case of the non-commercial bodies like Bord Fáilte, Bord Iascaigh Mhara, Córas Tráchtála and a number of other similar bodies which are not in commercial day-today business concerned with making a profit. I see no reason in the world why the same standards in regard to the examination by the Public Accounts Committee should not apply to them as is already applied to Departments of State. That is a matter which is being examined by the Government in the context of the whole Devlin Report which is at the moment engaging our attention.
This is just one of the aspects touched on in that very extensive report concerning many other ramifications of the public and semi-public service but I feel it is a very important one I would like to see resolved during the lifetime of the present Dáil. As I say, in regard to commercial bodies obviously the degree of accountability would have to be more flexible and at any rate in regard to those bodies you have the measuring rod of profit and loss at the present time which is the basic criterion and in regard to the bodies I have mentioned, CIE, apart from the railway system, the ESB, Bord na Móna, the airlines, Irish Shipping, all of those are showing a profit surplus on their operations at the present point in time. Some of them, particularly the ESB, have raised substantial sums by way of public subscription.
Operating profit.
I said this. My point is this, you have the measuring rod there, you can assess the progress, you can assess what they are doing and you can apply the commercial criterion of profit. At the same time, from the point of view of the executives of those State-sponsored bodies themselves, from the point of view of the House and from the point of view of the public, it would do everybody a lot of good if they came in before the Public Accounts Committee, or some enlarged version of the Public Accounts Committee, once a year and gave some account of their progress or lack of progress in their particular operation.
One matter this would require is an expansion of the research facilities available to the Public Accounts Committee, an enlargement possibly of the secretariat and research facilities available to enable Deputies to make a more critical appraisal with expert advice of the operations of those bodies. Again, this is referred to in the Devlin Report and, as I say, it is only one aspect of a very voluminous report on which action will be taken by the Government inside the next two years.
I want to thank the House for a very constructive debate and to assure the House that as far as I am concerned as Minister for Transport and Power I regard this House as having a very real function in regard to myself, my Department and the House in supervising those bodies in the public interest. I hope to keep it that way in the future and for that reason again I want to thank the House for the many constructive suggestions that were made in the course of the debate, all of which I will bring to the notice of the State bodies concerned and I will be in touch with the Deputies who made the suggestions.
I have just one question. I do not want the Minister to rehash as I know he has gone into great detail in the information he has given. I asked him a question earlier on and he suggested it was hallucination on my part and there was no truth in it.
What was that?
The question of grants to Bord Fáilte for this year. Does the Minister tell us—maybe I took him up wrong and I do not want him to give information which will be given later on in the Budget—that, in his opinion, the grants to Bord Fáilte this year, 1970-71, will be as great as and perhaps greater than they were for the present year?
Yes. I cannot give you the figures but they will be greater.
If somebody attached to the tourist organisation says, in fact, the opposite is the case than they are trying to misinform?
Yes. The grants will be increased.
Thank you very much.
I want to ask two questions. Can the Minister tell me if there are any plans to give representation to the workers on the boards of semi-State bodies and, secondly, can the Minister give me any assurances that Birkenhead will stay open as a port for the receipt of Irish stores?
I can give no assurance about Birkenhead because it is outside the sovereignty of our State.
Is the Minister going to take measures to ensure that shipments are maintained?
I cannot ensure this. On the other aspect, of course we have trade union representation on practically all State boards.
Except Bord na Móna.
Yes, except Bord na Móna. It has been policy to have trade union representation on those bodies. Deputy Tully knows this.