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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 16 Dec 1970

Vol. 250 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 3: Department of the Taoiseach (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following Motion:
That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1971, for the salaries and expenses of the Department of the Taoiseach.
—(The Taoiseach.)

Before I resume on the Estimates, I should like to protest again, as I did to the Acting Chairman, Deputy Tunney, this morning, about the rotation of speakers. We have been having one Fine Gael, one Labour and one Fianna Fáil. We have a greater number of Deputies than they have. We are entitled to the same voice as they are. Yet we do not receive the same fair treatment from the Chair and I think we are entitled to it. Some of their speakers take five or six hours. It is a competition between them to find out who is the greatest windbag in the outfit.

I have made my protest and I should be grateful if the Chair would give a favourable decision on this in the future.

Dr. O'Connell rose.

This is not a matter for discussion at the moment. The Chair decides the rotation of speakers.

An ex-Deputy of this House walked in with his henchmen and tried to demand extra time.

Deputy Davern on No. 3.

As I said this morning, if we look at the Opposition benches for an alternative, if we look for a Taoiseach on the Opposition benches, we will be looking for quite some time because there are no suitable candidates for any type of Government on the Opposition benches. Deputy Tully said this morning he had no confidence in Fianna Fáil Ministers. I do not doubt that, because he has not got confidence or trust in the members of his own party.

I did not say that. I said I did not trust Fianna Fáil Ministers.

The Deputy said he would not trust any Minister in the Fianna Fáil Party.

That is right.

I can see the reason why. If charity begins at home, trust begins at home, too. Deputy Tully and other members of his party are on a long knives campaign——

That is the Taoiseach the Deputy is talking about.

I made this charge this morning and I repeat it here now because this is disgraceful before the Irish people. It is political prostitution between the Fine Gael and Labour Parties, people who said they would go it alone in 1968. Deputy O'Leary was one of the henchmen at that time and Deputy Tully-they had their great party policy which they said they intended to implement. They got their answer in Donegal and they got it in the last general election when they tried to bring in the personality cult. One or two of them did get through. How, I do not know. It is one of the mysteries of political life. I doubt if some of them will be back in this House again.

Every time I hear that said I remember the former Deputy Boland telling me that he was sure I would never get back again.

It is interesting to look at some of the men within the Labour Party who are admired by members of their party-men like Deputy Cruise-O'Brien. His personal attacks on the Taoiseach have been unwarranted and certainly shameful and disgraceful because he and his party-and this is a widely held opinion and almost too obvious to mention-do not represent the majority of the rural people of this country. They do not represent the majority opinion of this country. Therefore, they have to attack the Taoiseach because they feel that he represents everything that is decent in this country, everything that is decent in politics and Government. I can understand their antagonism because it is a very sore point with them. We have had troubles in the Fianna Fáil Party this year, we have had personality differences, we have had slight turbulence; but Deputy Tully has never seen trouble in this party like what they will have in the Labour Party in a very short time. There are people in this country who call themselves socialists, and who are sincere socialists, but they are not sitting on those benches over there.

Surely they are not sitting on the Fianna Fáil Benches?

Fianna Fáil is a very socially-minded party. It has always been that and the Taoiseach, as he told Deputy Cruise-O'Brien was on more occasions than one nearer the breadline than many members of that Party. They seem to forget that the working-class people back the Fianna Fáil Party because the first man who ever did anything for the working class was the then Taoiseach in 1932, Éamon de Valera. He was the first man to give them adequate housing, to bring up the status of the agricultural worker.

The Deputy must be joking.

I am not joking. This is a fact.

We are here to prove it.

Deputy Tully knows it. He is inclined to get embarrassed about it, because his own party have fallen down on these lines. One could say they are more concerned with cheap publicity at the expense of parliamentary democracy than they are with the government of this country. Three times this year the Taoiseach has given these people the chance to debate what they want to debate. They have tempted us on each occasion to have a general election. We gave them two by-elections as training ground and they came back panting, flushed and dead. These people again last week kicked up an unmerciful row in the Labour benches. First of all, their leader—he is their leader for the moment, there is no doubt about that——

Thanks very much.

I do not know whether the Deputy's head is for the axe or not but there are people whom I believe will be grinding the old saw before Christmas.

Will you lend us the hatchetmen?

There are a few people who will be out in that event.

With this atmosphere in the Labour Party they have to cover up and attack the Fianna Fail Party. A number of gentlemen stood up last week. One was the Labour Party leader, Deputy Corish. The other was probably the only sincere extreme socialist in the Labour Party, Deputy Dr. Browne. Then we had my personal good friend, Deputy Coughlan, who stood up just to show that there was temporary unanimity in the Labour Party.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Coughlan I respect personally as a decent man. I can say that about one or two of his rural colleagues as well, but I am afraid there are others about whom I cannot say the same.

(Interruptions.)

On Thursday morning we had Deputy Cruise-O'Brien making a pointless protest and getting put out of the House. When this happened it dawned upon me that this was a publicity stunt for their conference in Cork. This was the whole point of it. Many of the Labour delegates in Cork believed that the members of the Labour Party in this House had given them a chance of becoming a party of their own and not a hind leg to another party. It reminds me of a sick calf in a field bawling for its mother. They have the cow over there and there is the sick calf over there. Their policies were rejected by the people last year. I did not say Deputy Coughlan's policy was rejected, I said their policy was rejected.

Deputy Jackie Fahey with his 25,000 Christmas cards.

I sympathise with the Deputy. I would like the Maoists——

(Interruptions.)

The Deputy is lucky that he is living in a comparatively rural area.

(Interruptions.)

What did Deputy Coughlan do with the Maoist bookshop?

I mentioned this morning the knifing that was going on behind Deputy Cosgrave's back. This is well known. It was significant that Declan Costello was sent to Donegal town and there was no mention of Deputy Cosgrave from the platform. At the time some of these things seemed unimportant but then one reflects that Deputy Harte was demoted because of his actions within the Fine Gael Party, that he was one of the people willing to knife Deputy Cosgrave and one of the people rejected at a recent parliamentary party meeting when 11 or 12 people were knocked out of the way in the defence of Deputy Cosgrave. There was no mention of a welcome back for Declan Costello from Deputy Cosgrave. That was an amazing feature. Yet he has been lauded by many Fine Gael people in many areas.

It is none of my business why he did not do it but I just want to point out that they have been talking about our differences during the year; let us have a look at theirs for a change. There are some very serious differences in the front bench of Fine Gael. The Chief Whip has his own problems in that regard, trying to keep some of them quiet and trying to make sure that the constituency of Donegal does not go out on its own little wing. I do not know whether a disgraceful display which took place in Bally-shannon was a deliberate Fine Gael action in the by-election in Donegal but certainly it was authorised by one of their Oireachtas Members. It was the nearest thing I have ever seen to a Fascist rally.

A Deputy

You would be a good judge.

We managed to tell them to keep their distance. The disgraceful thing was that they canvassed the schools that day——

(Interruptions.)

We will come to the Estimate for the Department of the Taoiseach now.

The Taoiseach is all that is decent and respectable in politics today.

What about the Deputy's colleague with the 26,000 cards? Is that decent and——

I will look after my colleague.

He has been out of the House for four days.

It was said this morning by Deputy Tully that Fianna Fáil were verging on a blood bath. I thought for a moment Deputy Corish was going to the back benches.

I will not have to toss up if I go.

Well, that is obviously clear because they will probably make the Deputy go.

That would be their right if they wanted to do it.

The Estimate for the Department of the Taoiseach.

Deputy Tully said that references were made in Fianna Fail to bloodshed and he inferred that Fianna Fáil were in favour of blood being spilled in this country. This is not true and never have I heard a Member of the Oireachtas, in this House or outside this House, stating that blood would be shed in this country. I think it is the wish of all of us——

Who said this? What is the Deputy talking about?

Deputy Tully inferred that this morning.

In Thurles in 1922——

——the now President of Ireland said——

(Interruptions.)

For Deputy Coughlan's benefit we are talking about the North of Ireland. He is a little bit back in the past because we are talking about the problem in the North of Ireland today and references to Fianna Fáil Deputies made over the past few years. Nobody, and especially no member of the Fianna Fail Party, is anxious to have a political blood bath of any kind. If Deputy Coughlan worried as much about Mr. Kelly as he did about what I said here——

I am worried about Deputy Jackie Fahey who has sent out——

The Fianna Fáil Party policy-which the Taoiseach has stated and which he has continued to ensure will be implemented—since 1927 has been one of peace. That policy has never changed at any time and we will not change it. If we were to have a decent Opposition elected rather than the one we have——

They should resign.

I have heard some very emotional statements from Deputies on the other side regarding internment.

We did not say internment, we said "concentration"— it is a concentration camp, not an internment camp.

Deputy Davern to proceed. Deputy Coughlan will have his opportunity to speak.

Let us reflect on the incidents that occurred in the last two years. There was a total of 19 bank raids and threats to the lives of Ministers and to the life of the Taoiseach, and the House and the country know that a special security guard had to be laid on for these people. Last night men were interviewed on television and they produced revolvers, machine guns and grenades and they stated that they commandeered banks rather than robbed them. They openly admitted this. I cannot see the difference between commandeering and robbing. I would like to point out to some of the more emotional people over there that there is a problem——

(Interruptions.)

There are certain illegal activities going on. However, if the Opposition want somebody to be shot first before we have to threaten to do something with these people they can console the widow at the graveside and say: "We really did not think it would happen." If somebody is shot it is only a life, but I know——

Your own Minister for Justice——

If Deputies will allow the Chair to speak. We cannot proceed with the debate on the basis that Deputies are talking to one another across the House. The procedure is that Deputies address the Chair and the debate is allowed in that fashion. Other Deputies will get their opportunity to speak when the Deputy in possession has concluded.

Yes, but when a Deputy goes off the rail surely we have to put him back on?

The Deputy will have his opportunity of dealing with or rebutting anything that was said.

We must correct him. He is only a cub.

I am very glad to hear that being said' because it ensures respect for the youth of the country. Once a person is over 21 he can vote and once a person can vote he can become a Member of Parliament. I appreciate that the Deputy may be feeling the weight of his years.

I am bearing not only the years of experience but the brunt of coercion from the Fianna Fáil benches.

I have been told I am talking through my hat, but the bank raids, the murder of Garda Fallon and incidents where men have paraded openly in military uniform and fired arms in public are all serious things. Indeed, if they had happened in many other countries a state of emergency would have been declared.

Why did the Government not do so when it happened?

The Taoiseach said that something would be done if the threats from these people did not cease. It is obvious that these people are a bunch of well-trained fanatics.

We do not know anything about them. The Taoiseach has said nothing.

On a point of order, we have only one speaker for every two speakers in the Opposition.

Why does the Deputy not ask for a House and call his friends in?

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

The Opposition can say anything they like but they cannot get away from the fact that emigration is down from 45,000 to 15,000 this year. The Opposition boast that during the Coalition Government there were plenty of 'houses; of course there were, but we had not sufficient people to fill them. The Opposition cannot beat figures like the £118 million spent each year by the Department of Social Welfare.

Let us look at the policies of the other two parties. Is the Labour policy socialist? Is it middle of the road or is it literally open to anyone who can give them a bit of power? That seems to me to be the policy of last Sunday. I do not blame Deputy Corish; he is in a very awkward predicament. He was a decent man going along his own line when a couple of Dublin fellows brought in their friends and he found himself involved with a number of other gentlemen, gentlemen he now has to get rid of in some way. These people are trying to knife him in the back. He knows it and we know it.

I shall not bring them to the Central Criminal Court anyway.

The Deputy should send 25,000 Christmas cards as Deputy Fahey is doing.

If Deputy Coughlan is worried about Christmas cards——

I am not worried.

——I can assure him it is no problem for me. There are 20,000 Fianna Fáil votes in South Tipperary; if the Deputy could say the same about the Labour vote in Limerick he would be all right. The figures for agriculture under the present Taoiseach have risen, and this again cannot be denied by Opposition Deputies. There is still a great deal to be done, but we are doing it as quickly as we can, provided we are given ample time to bring in legislation and are not interrupted to discuss motions of confidence in the Taoiseach whenever the Opposition decide they want to. The Government have been more than lenient with the Opposition in allowing them to discuss matters. The Opposition have their own problems but they have been trying to centre them on the Taoiseach and on the Government.

I object very strongly to the personal attacks which have been made on the Taoiseach by Deputy Keating and Deputy Cruise-O'Brien. The cynicism of those two gentlemen disgusts me. Their self-righteous attitude is disgusting, and sometimes amusing. According to themselves these two gentlemen would be the saviours of democracy, but from what I know of their past there is not too much democracy there. I do not want Deputy Coughlan to stand up for them or anything like that, but I would suggest he should listen very carefully at his own party meetings when he hears talk about internment and anything like that because I believe there was a gentleman called Kenneth Kaunda in Africa who did a similar type of thing.

Last year Deputy Coughlan said something about the Springboks and he was slammed straightaway, but when Deputy Browne mentioned abortion, contraception and divorce not a word was said about it until a special meeting was called. But poor Deputy Coughlan was slammed the moment he opened his mouth. This is discrimination against rural Deputies. The Labour Party at the moment is based around a little centre in Dublin.

We are a terrible worry to the Deputy now. The Deputy is like a hot potato.

The only worry I have about the Labour Party is that we may have to fill the 16 or 17 seats they at present occupy. Fianna Fáil seem to have to provide their own Opposition in this Dáil. We have tried to help the Opposition to be a reasonable and helpful Opposition.

Will the Deputy wake up? The alarm clock is ringing. The Deputy's dream is over.

The definition of "republicanism"——

Republicanism a la Jack Lynch.

Deputy Coughlan should cease interrupting.

I think it is proper to refer to the Taoiseach as the Taoiseach.

Yes, the Taoiseach is referred to as the Taoiseach.

It is proper, if a Deputy is angling for a Parliamentary Secretaryship.

(Interruptions.)

The Fianna Fáil Party are fully behind the Taoiseach. If both Opposition parties could say the same in regard to their leaders we would be very surprised. I do not know which side Deputy Cluskey is on. He is probably like the fellow in the ditch, waiting to decide on which side to jump.

I am a republican.

The accusations made against the Taoiseach by some Members of the Opposition have been scandalous. The present Taoiseach, Deputy Lynch, has done more to remove the Border from Irish politics than anyone else who has ever sat in this House before him.

Let me say that Jack Lynch will be honoured with the Order of the British Empire, because Mr. Chichester Clark said he was the greatest Irishman and the greatest republican the North of Ireland ever knew and let him be conferred with the OBE.

If the Deputy speaks about the Taoiseach he must refer to him as the Taoiseach.

I will refer to him by what he is in my mind.

The Deputy will refer to the Leader of the House as the Taoiseach.

I will refer to him as I think fit.

If the Deputy mentions the Taoiseach in this House then he will refer to him as the Taoiseach.

I suppose the Clonmel Nationalist at the weekend will describe Deputy Davern's speech as a fighting speech and that will help to offset the 25,000 Christmas cards sent out by the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Fahey.

He will never live down the cards.

Deputy Davem said scandalous accusations were made against the Taoiseach by Members of this House. The most scandalous references to the Taoiseach were made by members of his own party. No member on this side of the House called him a felon setter. It was members of Fianna Fáil who said that. The hardest things said about him were said by members of his own party. All the insults buried at him were by members of Fianna Fail. All the snubbing and backbiting that went on went on in the Taoiseach's own party. I do not recall ever hearing the leader of a party being subjected to such abuse for such a long time. Those who have abused him professed loyalty and followed him into the Division Lobby and voted for him and, having done that, they went out through the door, interviewed members of the press and television, and said that their vote was one thing but they were keeping their fingers crossed behind their backs. I had a great deal of sympathy with the Taoiseach at the time because I felt he was only being left there until it suited certain people in his party to get rid of him. I have not got rid of that feeling and yesterday's Irish Independent quotes remarks made by Deputy Haughey in Brussels——

Denied this morning.

The report was that Deputy Haughey would be a Minister in the next Fianna Fáil Government under the present Minister for External Affairs. I understand from people I know on the Continent that when Mr. Mansholt was over here at the end of October he said exactly the same thing when he want back to Brussels: he had been assured that Mr. Lynch would not be Taoiseach for many more months, that Deputy Dr. Hillery would take over and Deputy Haughey—this was the assurance given to Mr. Mansholt—would be in the Cabinet under Deputy Dr. Hillery. That was the assurance he got about the Irish Government.

On a point of order. For the record, it is only fair to say that Deputy Haughey issued a denial this morning.

That is not a point of order.

It is a point of information.

Deputy Haughey had no choice but to deny it. I doubt if Irish politics and Irish democracy have ever been subjected to so much scorn as in the last year. People are losing faith in the country and in this institution. They judge us on the standards of some Members on the Government side of the House. We are accused of having no integrity, no standards, no concern for the people whom we are supposed to serve. The final blame for this rests with the Taoiseach. That is the fact. He is the Leader of the Government and of the House. If standards are low it is the Taoiseach who must take the blame for those low standards. Of course, we are all blamed. What is done on the Government benches rubs off on us. That is regrettable. Perhaps we deserve it because we did not fight harder or abuse the Government more to make them set their standards higher.

What pleased me most in the last 12 months was the loyalty of the gardaí and the Army. I am, however, now beginning to wonder if it will last. I did not see the postal vote in the by-elections but it is usually 80 to 85 per cent for the Government—not necessarily Fianna Fáil—and 15 per cent for the Opposition. This time in Donegal the postal vote had risen as far as we were concerned; we were getting a far bigger percentage of the gardai and the Army votes. However, as I said, what pleased me most was the manner in which the gardaí and the Army behaved over the last 12 months. I want to put that on the record of the House. It is well known —it does not need someone like me to bring it home to the people—where the thanks for this should be placed. When the first change of Government took place 38 years ago the instructions issued to the gardai and the Army were very clear: they did not serve a party, they served the Government. Their acceptance of that principle was amply demonstrated last May and since; the lesson had been well learned and passed on.

Deputy Davern asked did the Opposition parties want to see someone shot before measures were taken. Of course someone was shot: Garda Fallen lost his life early this year and the people who shot him have not yet been apprehended. We are told it is necessary now to reintroduce the Offences Against the State Act. The Government turned a blind eye to events in O'Connell Street when people produced guns and fired shots. As Deputy Cosgrave said last week, this party have always held that there should be one Army and one Army only.

And this party have never said anything else.

There are people apparently who feel free to parade, produce guns and fire them, and nothing has been done about them. The gardaí stood in O'Connell Street while the funeral of a young man was passing and saw guns produced and fired outside the GPO and nothing was done about it. I understand the gardai said privately afterwards to some people that instructions had been given not to touch them.

Who might these people be to whom the gardaí spoke privately? It is very easy glibly to say something like that.

I understand they spoke to some reporters.

But the Deputy did not bother checking.

The Deputy said he understood the gardaí spoke privately to someone.

That is right.

It is very easy to say that.

They spoke to reporters and told them this. If the Taoiseach had let me finish I would have said that it might be the policy of the Government to ignore these people and pretend they were unimportant because more harm might be done by arresting them. I do not know. The Taoiseach has not said so but, if that was the policy of the Government, then it was a wrong policy. Someone must govern and in this case the Government did not. This House should have been engaged during the past 12 months primarily with the question of our candidature for EEC membership but, because of the arms trial and, more recently, the Prices and Incomes Bill, the matter of EEC membership has been pushed out of the limelight.

The arms trial preceded the debate on the EEC.

I think they overran each other. The EEC debate is still not concluded.

It is not-because of the Opposition's initiative that pushed the EEC motion further down the Order Paper.

Shall I give way to the Taoiseach and allow him to make my speech for me?

One should always feel flattered when the Taoiseach interrupts one's speech.

I am interested in Deputy Barry. He is reasonable. He is open to reasoned argument.

I am not being sarcastic. Take note of how they react over there when they receive favourable comment.

I should be very worried about what the Deputy would say in praise of us.

I am being helped by three Deputies now. I find it difficult enough as it is.

It will give the Deputy time to collect his thoughts for the next point.

I have my thoughts collected. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle seems to be taking a secondary part in this House.

I shall not interrupt any more.

I am grateful for that. The Minister for Finance said that there would be absolutely no retreat from the Prices and Incomes Bill. Deputy Haughey appeared on television and said he did not agree with it and, lo and behold, the Minister for Finance. Deputy Colley, found, the following week, that he could retreat from it. Whatever about the control of prices, I think the control of incomes is a very difficult matter. The incomes of those who contribute most to inflation cannot be controlled. The fact that the Bill is now put into cold storage does not help to raise the confidence of the people in the Government. To function properly, a Government must have the confidence not merely of the people who voted for them but also of those people who voted against the party comprising the Government.

What about the results of the by-elections?

I am willing to discuss that matter. Is it in order?

The Deputy will stay with the Taoiseach's Estimate.

The Fine Gael vote went up by over 50 per cent in Donegal-Leitrim and, in South County Dublin, for the rest of the count when the Independents were eliminated, we were nearly 6,000 votes ahead of Fianna Fáil——

More moral victories.

That was a very real victory. In the past two years, questions have arisen with regard to our relationship with the Six Counties; whether we should give them de jure or de facto recognition; whether we should encourage minority groups up there to arm themselves or pretend they did not exist, as seems to have been the policy for many years; whether we should direct propaganda at them to show that our point of view is not terribly different from theirs—that we are on the one island, and that whatever differences there are among us can easily be resolved if we work on them. I do not think that the fact that the majority of the people in the Six Counties are Protestants while the majority down here are Catholics would hinder the working of this country as a 32-county Republic. The fact that the majority of the people in the Six Counties are, as they term themselves, Unionists, while the vast majority of the Irish people down here are not is something that only time will whittle away. We must show them that, by becoming part of a 32-county administrative area, we are not asking them to sacrifice something that is extremely attractive and valuable to them for a catch-penny or a shoddy article.

The quality of life in this country is something which people in many countries would be very happy to share with us. I think the people in the Six Counties have, to a large extent, inherited their loyalty to what they call Unionism, this allegiance to England— some of them for material reasons; some through a genuine desire to be united with the Government in England. However, to many more of them, I think it needs on our part only an intelligent and well-organised show of goodwill not alone by the Government but also by the Opposition parties and by the people throughout the country. We do not offer them a lowering of their standards in a material sense. We must guarantee them the same standards, at least, as they are now enjoying. I would hope they would accept that we want them to share with us a raising of standards and a better way of life.

The Taoiseach said recently that the Fianna Fáil Party never ran away from their responsibilities as the Coalition Governments did. After the two recent by-elections he said the results signified that the country still supported Fianna Fáil. He must, then, believe his party will be returned to power. If he holds this general election, therefore, there will be no question of running away but simply a question of asking the people for a renewed mandate after the events of the past six months.

Why bother, then?

I was about to suggest that, for his own peace of mind —if he believes both of those statements to be true—the Taoiseach should have a general election. In the interests of the country he should consult the people again.

It is very important that we should review the affairs of the Dáil in the past Session and consider what the Taoiseach, as head of the Fianna Fáil Government, has done by way of introducing constructive legislation. I see the present Dáil system as unwieldy. A few days ago we saw such a rush of business through the Dáil with no time given for debate that it seems as if we are only a rubber stamp for legislation. We serve no other purpose. We have no power or responsibility. Nothing is happening. The Dáil meets for a few months in the year. I have not seen much time given to the discussion of legislation before this House.

In the last session we had a discussion of a Supplementary Budget, the prices and incomes policy and then the threat of the Offences Against the State Act. I do not know what has taken place in the past year: even since the last election in 1969 there has been nothing constructive before the House. We had useless debates brought on by the Taoiseach and the Members of his party attacking each other. We were witnesses to this spectacle. It should be obvious that there is need to reform the Dáil. The initiative came from the Labour Party in suggesting reforms. It is not sufficient to meet two or three days in the week and not good enough to decide to wind up a debate quickly with no proper time given for discussion of important matters. As a minimum, the Dáil should meet five days a week and it is wrong that we should decide to close tomorrow evening and not re-open until the end of January or February. That is exactly what will happen. We should now raise our voices and say that something must be done. The initiative lies with the Taoiseach.

The Deputy did not come into the House for 12 months.

The Taoiseach should meet the leaders of the parties. I am asking that the Dáil should meet five days a week.

What about Deputy Dowling's point?

I have nothing to say about my colleague's point. The electorate judged what I did for them. They voted me in with a very substantial vote. I am not accountable to Deputy Dowling for any votes I got.

The Deputy then is a hypocrite.

The Deputy must not use such a term

Legislation should not be bulldozed through the House without proper examination. We should consider this situation early in the new year. People have lost respect for this institution because they think it is a rubber stamp.

The Fianna Fáil Government negotiated the Anglo-lrish Free Trade Agreement with Britain. We were told what a wonderful thing it was. I remember Deputies in the Fianna Fáil Party saying that we were reactionaries because we said this agreement spelled danger for the Irish economy. We were told the agreement offered us unlimited opportunities and that we stood to gain immensely from it. A few days ago I looked up the figures for imports and exports and I was astonished to see that since 1966 we have done far worse than we did from 1960 to 1966 as a result of the agreement. The Taoiseach knows that there is no benefit in the agreement. The agreement has resulted in dumping, redundancies and unemployment.

It was disclosed in reply to a question to the Taoiseach in the House that the number of people at work in 1970 was 100,000 fewer compared with 1951. This is startling, and I should like the Taoiseach to comment on it in his reply. In the last year we have seen nearly 4,000 redundancies as a result of dumping and the adverse balance and the unfair treatment we get under the Anglo-lrish Free Trade Agreement. We were told there were safeguards and guarantees in this agreement. I had occasion to accompany a deputation to the Minister for Industry and Commerce on behalf of the workers from Clara. All he could say was that he had talked to the management of the jute factory and they would do nothing about it. There are 300 workers redundant there and that, no doubt, represents 1,000 people. They are now without employment and there is nothing for them but the emigrant ship.

We have redundancy in the shoe trade as a result of foreign shoes being dumped here and we have no redress. We can timidly tell them that perhaps this is a little unfair but the Taosieach and his Ministers know we have no redress. This is the agreement which the Fianna Fáil Government concluded with Britain. It ensured us nothing but unemployment, redundancy and emigration.

I read the Taoiseach's speech on the Vote of Confidence Motion a while ago. He went back to the first Fianna Fáil Government and tried to outline their progress. It reminded me of what you would hear in Russia where there is not another party.

The Deputy is familiar with that.

Perhaps I am, but I certainly should not like to see the same situation here, with one ruling party, nor would any member of my party. If the Deputy likes it, he is entitled to it, I suppose.

Deputy Dowling revels in the smear. He is the dirt bird of the Fianna Fáil Party.

That is no remark to make.

The Taoiseach spoke at length about our social services but I should like to bring to his attention the fact that expenditure on social services per head in the Republic is less than half what it is in Northern Ireland. Is he aware that we spend £65 per head compared with £138 per head in Northern Ireland? The Taoiseach should bear that in mind When talking of reunification, because that is an essential barrier to unity. Our social services are far from adequate; they are the worst in western Europe. People are living at or below poverty level. The Taoiseach refused to comment when I asked him to define poverty, but whether the Taoiseach knows it or not people are living in poverty in this country. We see it daily. The social services are far from adequate. There is no reason for the Taoiseach to boast that we have a wonderful country because nothing is being done by him in this field.

Do not tempt me on social services.

I am tempting the Taoiseach now by telling him that expenditure on social services in the Republic per head is less than half that in Northern Ireland.

The old age pensioners got only 2s 6d in three years.

I am talking about today. I want the Taoiseach to contradict that if he can. They receive less than half of what they receive in Northern Ireland. The Minister for Social Welfare says that we are not in a position to determine how our social services compare with those in Northern Ireland. When I asked the Minister if he would state what it would cost to bring our social services up to the level of those in Northern Ireland he said there was no way of determining this. I am giving him this figure. This has been worked out very well and it shows that our expenditure on social services is less than half that spent in Northern Ireland. I will quote the source of this information for the Minister.

The Third Programme for Economic Expansion says that the main emphasis must not be on economic development alone, that there must be a purpose behind this, and that is social development. On page 8 of this document it says:

We must avoid a situation where the pursuit of material progress becomes the exclusive goal of economic endeavour.

We have asked the Government to consider a proper, comprehensive health service. It was only in 1965, when the then Taoiseach, Mr. Séan Lemass, found that people wanted a proper health service, that he decided he would have his Minister for Health publish a White Paper on the health services, which was published in 1966. We were then promised everything in this document but now at the end of 1970 the free choice of doctor scheme has not yet been introduced despite all the announcements by the Goverment that they were committed to this. There was haggling going on for years. I asked the then Minister for Health, Deputy Flanagan, what was being done about this or would there be a possibility of a breakdown in negotiations. He said there would be no breakdown, that it was definitely going ahead. Now we find in December, 1970, on the eve of the implementation of the free choice of doctor scheme that it must be postponed. In fact, when it comes to health services we find our people are treated as second-class citizens. may not have coloureds here but we have second class citizens.

Did the Deputy ever hear what happened in 1951?

We had 100,000 more people employed in 1951 than we have today. That is an answer by the Taoiseach to a question in the House a short time ago. In 1956 there were 56,000 more people employed in this country than there are today.

The Deputy is juggling with figures.

I am not juggling with figures at all. I will read out what the Taoiseach says in reply to this question asked in the House. The question asked:

The number of people at work in Ireland in 1956 and at the latest date; and the reasons for any decline.

The Taoiseach replied:

The total at work in 1956 was 1.125,000. In 1969 the figure was 1,069,000 at work.

I have quoted those figures from Volume 245, Column 1204 of the Official Report.

The Deputy is taking it out of context.

What was the reason for the decline?

The reply stated:

It would not be possible to isolate a general reason.

That is all the reply that was given.

The Deputy has quoted this out of context.

I have quoted the source of my information. I should like to hear what the Taoiseach will say about this. I have not got the Dáil debate relating to the figures for 1951.

There were 100,000 more people employed in 1951 than there are today. This was a reply given by the Taoiseach's Department.

There were more unemployed.

I am talking about the figures for 1951 in comparison with the figures for today. I should like to know what happened the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. They got wise with the Third Programme because this is a philosophical dissertation. There is nothing in it. It is a lovely outline of philosophy of what we would like to see. There are no facts and figures of what we would like to see done. I looked up housing but there are only a few pages on it.

What does it say about housing?

That never got off the ground at all.

There is nothing in it. It is the greatest farce I ever saw prepared by a Government. The then Taoiseach decided he was not going to be caught in the Third Programme. He made very definite statements in the Second Programme.

Does it not say that we have reached our target of 14,000 houses this year?

How is it that we have a housing emergency and a housing crisis? The people are living in disgraceful conditions and you say you have reached your target. How dare you say that! People are living in slum conditions in overcrowded houses. How dare you say that! I can tell you about the housing problem. Go and see the people living in primitive conditions. The Taoiseach says with a glib smile that we have reached our target. I am telling him about the crisis on his hands at the moment. He has his Ministers here and they try everything to evade giving proper replies to questions. The Taoiseach should be ashamed of them and ashamed of himself.

When I answer a question the Deputy becomes emotional.

I become emotional when I see people living in abject poverty and when I see mixed adult families sleeping in one room. The Taoiseach with a glib smile says "Look what we have done with regard to housing". You have done nothing. The Taoiseach's former colleague, the ex-Minister for Local Government, Mr. Boland, never gave proper answers to questions. The Taoiseach knew he was not a proper Minister but now the Taoiseach has Mr. Boland's successor acting just the same. He thinks by emulating his predecessor he will achieve a place of importance in your party. He will not give honest or proper answers to questions asked in this House. I advise you to make your Minister give honest replies to questions.

Will the Deputy please address the Chair.

I am sorry, but when I see the glib smile on the Taoiseach's face over the housing problem I become emotional. He obviously does not know what has happened at the lower level of society. Those people are living in primitive conditions.

The housing figure is 20 per cent higher than it was ten years ago.

You have got to know the situation. You cannot tell people percentage figures when they are in difficulties, when they are thrown out on the street or when they are living in Griffith Barracks or places like that. Percentages do not work with those people. You have got to do something constructive. The first thing the Taoiseach should have done was appoint a Minister for Housing. The Taoiseach should declare a housing emergency and appoint a Minister for Housing.

Is the Deputy going to send a telegram to the Pope?

Maybe we should. We should have taken an action for violation of the Constitution.

Is the Deputy trying to tag that on to the Labour Party also?

Deputy Dr. O'Connell said they sent one.

Deputy Moore will get an opportunity of speaking later.

Deputy O'Connell never said that.

Some of the Deputy's colleagues said he did.

I did not know anything about it.

We will accept the Deputy's word if he says he did not know anything about it.

It is the old smear again.

We talk about direct taxation and we see that 675,000 people paid tax last year and of that number 530,000 came under the PAYE system, which shows that it is the lower-paid people who pay the tax. Half a million people paid tax under the PAYE system besides paying indirect taxation of 17 per cent on cigarettes, 62 per cent on petrol, 43 per cent on the pint of stout and in addition turnover tax on those items. This is an indication of the indirect taxation of which this Government are so fond. Taking direct and indirect taxation we have the highest taxation rate of any country in Europe and when that is compared with our social services a deplorable state of affairs is revealed. It is certainly nothing of which this Government can be proud.

The Deputy did not mention corporation profits tax. He did not vote against that.

I did vote against it.

The Deputy did not. He sat in the lobby with Deputy Dr. Browne.

I am wondering if I was wrong. I think I may have been wrong because it might impose such a burden on companies that it would create unemployment. This is a fact I must take into account. If it imposes such a burden on companies that it creates unemployment, I must vote against it. I did not vote against it and, looking back, I may have been wrong, not the Labour Party.

The Labour Party say the Deputy was wrong.

There is every indication that this will create unemployment. I am admitting that much. We have the highest taxation in Europe. This indirect taxation is a crippling burden on the ordinary working person. I was speaking to an Englishman today and he told me how astonished he was to find that we have turnover tax on food and essential items. No attempt was made to remove that unjust taxation. Instead it was doubled. This shows the concern of this Government tor the working man. This is the socialist Government of which they are all so proud. They say they are the greatest socialists of them all and still they impose such crippling taxation on essential foodstuffs for the ordinary working person.

The tourists should be subsidised?

An Englishman told me how inequitable it was to have turnover tax on the food of the ordinary people.

And because an Englishman told the Deputy he believed him.

He said that in Britain they would not tolerate it. They arranged to have a purchase tax that would not apply to essential foodstuffs because they thought it would be unjust to the working people and to the ordinary poor people. They arranged that the people in the higher echelons, in the higher income brackets, would pay more in indirect taxation.

(Interruptions.)

Would Deputies please cease interrupting?

The Deputy should tell us about taxation in Sweden and Switzerland.

(Interruptions.)

Would Deputy Dowling please cease interrupting?

I was just telling him——

I do not want to hear the Deputy. He will get an opportunity of making his own speech.

The Government declare that they are very concerned about the plight of the ordinary working people and that they are so concerned that they have ensured that everything is geared towards improving the social services and helping the underprivileged in our community. The Government said that social programmes such as theirs can act as a spur to economic development by helping to convince people that growth is a worthwhile objective. This is where they have fallen down and this is why their programmes can never succeed. I was talking about taxation and the Government's determination to collect tax by every possible means.

That is how we build houses. The Deputy may not be aware of that.

What I am aware of is that housing only became a crisis since Fianna Fáil came into power in my time.

It became a crisis-when there was no emigration.

Stop fooling yourselves. They are so brainwashed and so conditioned that they do not know the truth when they hear it. Such abysmal ignorance. I mentioned the Anglo-lrish Free Trade Area Agreement which is reflecting so adversely on the Irish economy. It is obvious that if this is continued further we will have massive unemployment. The signs are very evident.

Deputy Treacy said that ten years ago in this House. He preached gloom and doom.

A few minutes ago I proved that he was right.

The Deputy should have confidence in the country and in the workers.

Would Deputy Crowley please cease interrupting and allow Deputy Dr. O'Connell to make his speech?

We find it hard to listen.

If the Deputy cannot listen to some basic facts and truths he should leave the House. We have seen the split in the Government. It is evident that they know they cannot count on the support of some of their members. In actual fact we have seen a coalition of the worst type voting in the Division Lobby.

What happened in Cork?

We have seen vacillating leadership and a vacillating Government. The Minister for Finance stated-and I love the way he said it-that there would be no negotiations and that it was definite that the Prices and Incomes Bill would go through. He said there was no question whatsoever of any negotiations or any back-tracking. The heading in the Sunday Press of 18th October reads: "We will not bargain-Colley". In an interview with John Murdoch it is stated that he "told me emphatically yesterday that there would be no bargaining on the Government's new anti-inflation proposals." The report goes on:

I asked him: "Does the Government intend to have any talk with the workers or employers on the new legislation?

He told me: If we were asked by either group to listen to their views on it, obviously we would listen. But I would like to make it clear that this legislation is not putting up a bargaining position.

I am showing that we have a vacillating Government because in a very short time they decided that this repressive legislation could not be forced through. On so many occasions I have seen Fianna Fáil trying to assume dictatorial powers. This is one of them. It was only because of the fact that there is an effective Opposition here that those attempts by them were thwarted.

The Prices and Incomes Bill was brought in despite the fact-and this is interesting-that they said in their Third Programme that there must be free collective bargaining. In chapter 11 on industrial relations the Minister for Labour said there was no attempt to introduce any change in the present system of free collective bargaining but, despite that, they tried to bring in that repressive legislation.

It had the desired effect all the same.

Of course it had.

We will hear the statement from the Taoiseach tomorrow. Already he has backed down and decided to withdraw the Bill. The Deputy does not know what he is talking about. I would advise the Deputy to keep himself informed.

They could not get agreement in six months and now suddenly they have agreement.

The unions told the Government that they would not be party to any national agreement unless the Prices and Incomes Bill were withdrawn. They were determined, and we in the Labour Party on their behalf were determined, that there should be free collective bargaining and that there should be no attempt to bargain at gunpoint. That was exactly what was attempted by the Minister for Finance. The Taoiseach is a shrewder politician than the Minister for Finance. He saw that when he was guided by the Minister for Finance he had made a few mistakes and he decided that the "bull in the china shop" antics of the Minister for Finance would not work. He decided, firstly, that they would back down on the question of what they would allow by way of increase and secondly, he has admitted that they will withdraw the Bill because he knows that if we are to have proper democracy, proper industrial relations, we must have free collective bargaining.

I was concerned at the Taoiseach's statement the week before last. He said there was a threat of a plot and unless this threat were removed he would introduce Part 2 of the Offences Against the State Act. This is another attempt by the Fianna Fáil administration to bring in dictatorial measures. If this were allowed and if we were to sit down and not raise our voices in protest against this we would see freedom lost in this country. We would see, in fact, what is happening in the Communist countries of Europe happening here with freedom of speech abolished.

I read Part 2 of this Act because when it was introduced in 1940 I knew nothing about it or its significance or its implications. I saw when I read it that any Minister can have a person arrested and interned if, in his opinion, that person has said anything that he thinks is a breach of the peace. Any Minister can do this. He need not consult his colleagues. He does not have to consult the Taoiseach. There is no one excluded from this. If I said anything outside against the Minister for Local Government he, if this were brought in, could have me interned without trial.

This is what this Government wanted to re-introduce and the Taoiseach was annoyed because we raised our voices in protest against it. He refused point blank to have a debate on it despite the fact that we thought it was a definite matter of urgent public importance. His reply to Private Notice Questions is interesting. I quote from Volume 250 of the Official Report, column 486. When asked among other things why he did not make a statement in the Dáil on the matter, why he waited until the Friday to make it, he said:

While there is no obligation on the Government to make in the Dail a statement such as that referred to in the questions, it was hoped to do so last Thursday—

This is important.

—but this did not prove possible because of the need to give the matter careful and extended consideration and to take appropriate action quickly.

To take appropriate action quickly. He knew it before the Thursday. He said he would have made a statement on the Thursday but he had to take appropriate action quickly. The action he took was on the Friday. There is something wrong in the Taoiseach's statement. I should like the Taoiseach to explain that because there is a contradiction there. The Taoiseach, in some way or other, was not telling the truth. The Taoiseach has a duty to explain this. He had to take appropriate action quickly and he did not do it until the Friday. We know that Mr. Boland, an ex-Minister, had said that the Special Branch were dreaming up plots to justify their existence. This was a former senior member of the Government who said this.

The Taoiseach did not explain. He said there was a threat and added: "if this threat was not removed..." What does he mean by that? I am reminded of Hitler's days in the 1930's which I read about in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich and the way they dreamed up plots to justify taking dictatorial action and opening up concentration camps. There is a very real danger that the Taoiseach will introduce this measure. It is more than likely that he will bring it in as soon as the Dail adjourns for the Christmas Recess. He can try to muster public opinion in his favour by saying we have had bank robberies and killings. They have had bank robberies in England but they have a police force to tackle them. We did not see Britain bringing in Special Powers Acts. We did not see internments up North when they had tremendous trouble last year. They had justification, if anyone had, with all the trouble that prevailed up North, but they did not bring this in. Still we, who condemn them, are permitting the Taoiseach to bring this in.

Do not be protecting the bank robbers.

This kind of folly one would not find anywhere. Abysmal ignorance is what I would call that. Have we not a Garda force that is capable of protecting the public against bank robbers and others? If they are not, we want to know why the Garda force should not be strengthened to deal with problems like this.

We should not allow, and the public should have a massive demonstration against, any attempt by this Government to bring in Part 2 of the Offences Against the State Act, because no Government in a democratic country have the right to take away a person's freedom and liberty without trial, without reason, without justification. I do not care who the people are: the Government have no right to bring in laws like this to deal with them. If people are guilty of something, they should be brought before the courts, and let justice prevail. The Government are afraid of justice and this is their only excuse because their actions belie their intentions. Cases brought before the courts show a mockery of the courts and justice. There was a case that took place recently. It was evident from the newspaper reports what happened. It seems so ludicrous that when people are arraigned before the courts and when justice is applied the next thing is there is an appeal and the Minister for Justice decides that the person can go scot free. I do not know the ins and outs of all this. Now they say the courts are inadequate. How could they be adequate if the Minister for Justice intervenes and says the person can go free? I am wondering if that person was the informer? Is that why the person was allowed to go free?

That is what you are meant to think.

The informer was supposed to live in a flat on the north side of Dublin. The Opposition have a duty to inform the public and to arouse public interest in what is going on, what the measures are and what are the implications of Part 2 of this Act. Many people are ignorant of the implications of this Part of the Act which was first enacted 30 years ago. The present generation know nothing about it. The onus is on the newspapers and on public representatives to inform people that a person can be arrested on the order of any Minister, without consulting his colleagues, and interned without a trial. This is not just a threat by the Government. They acted very rapidly when despatching their representative to Strasbourg. There is no doubt that this was not just a threat. We will see it coming into effect during the Recess because that is what is in the Taoiseach's mind.

The Taoiseach said that this State will not be used as a base for any plots against the North or anything like that. This Government are no example of leadership and proper Government because we saw their members involved in plots. We always have to keep one thing in mind about any leader. Megalomania is a terrible thing. You start by distrusting your colleagues and then you begin to distrust everyone around you. Any leader will then make sure that his position is consolidated and fortified and he takes more and more action, more and more repressive measures. This is the fear in my mind, that we might have a Taoiseach who might be thinking along those lines.

I remember three years ago seeing a patient who suffered a stroke. Members of the Special Branch broke into her house at 5 o'clock in the morning, dragged her son from his bed and took him away for questioning and the woman suffered a stroke as a consequence. I wrote to the Minister for Justice suggesting that he might make an apology to the lady for what happened. I think it was then I first became aware of the implications of this. The people in the Special Branch can concoct all sorts of charges against a person to suit their own ends. They can break into your house at any time of the day or night, as happened in this case, and take people from it. I have to confess that I am not one of those super-republicans; I am a realist perhaps and I have no particular sympathy with the republicans who want to take over the north by force or anything like that, or with Sinn Féin. But I do not care who they are, even if they are Jehovah's Witnesses they are entitled to their freedom and liberty and the right of free speech. I do not think any force such as the Special Branch have the right to carry on as they do. We are given no information about this Special Branch but what we are doing is giving them this extra power and before we know where we are there will be hundreds interned.

What should be known is that if a trade unionist says anything that any Minister considers is not right he can have the trade unionists interned. This affects the ordinary working people and anyone can be locked up. When I spoke to people about it they said: "Oh yes, but can't you get your solicitor? Can't you go to court?". They did not realise that you could be put away and no one knows for how long. When I wanted to put down a question during the week to ask the minimum time a person would have to serve it was disallowed because the Minister for Justice, to whom the question would have been addressed, had no responsibility. When I spoke to the Ceann Comhairle's secretary about this he said it was a matter for the courts. There are no courts involved in this. He said it was a matter for the courts to decide how long. We found after further discussion that no courts were involved, that you are just interned and that is that and no one knows for how long you may be put away. I am saying this, that I will personally march through the streets if there is any attempt to do this and I will enlist support everywhere for action against this repressive measure and this dictatorial power.

A Dáil Deputy. Totally irresponsible.

I will march in the cause of the freedom of the people.

That is irresponsible.

That is not irresponsible. I will enlist public support against this because the freedom of the individual is at stake. More and more publicity should be given to this fact, that anyone can be put away.

If somebody was shot what would the Deputy's attitude be?

We have a Garda force and let us employ them and if they are not strong enough let them be strengthened?

You would want 3,000,000 gardaí.

A Deputy

What would you do if somebody was kidnapped?

What did they do in Britain, or in Germany or——

What did they do in Canada?

Order. Deputy Davern has already spoken and' he should allow Deputy Dr. O'Connell to proceed.

We have the courts of justice here and we have a Garda force. I will say that the strength of that force is not adequate. They have complained about this and they have done their very best with their limited resources but the Government have refused to bring the Garda force up to their proper strength. They put the gardaí on duty at the banks. Why do they not tell the banks to employ their own security guards, as is done in other countries?

I wonder how many people will spend this Christmas in an internment camp? At the rate the Government are acting this is liable to be brought in as soon as the Dáil adjourns. When the Coalition Government came into power they found political prisoners naked in the cells in Portlaoise and scandalous treatment had been meted out to them. This Government have not got an exemplary record in their treatment of people. I do not think only Ministers are involved; I think the backbenchers are involved as well. As public representatives Fianna Fáil Deputies should protect the freedom of individuals. Fianna Fáil Deputies should protest about this repressive legislation. They have a moral right to do this. We must have a proper Garda force to deal with this or any lawlessness, but we cannot take dictatorial powers to deal with alleged threats. Hitler said the same in the thirties and that dictatorship brought a holocaust to Europe.

Hitler was a national socialist.

Hitler was not a socialist or anything like it. How ignorant can the Deputy be?

Of course he was.

I would recommend the Deputy to read some history.

Deputy Moore will have an opportunity to speak.

We may have a dissertation from Deputy Moore on socialism.

Or concentration camps.

There is one thing about the Labour Party; it cares for the people.

It cares for itself.

We care about people.

That is touching.

It is true. The Labour Party are concerned about the less privileged people in society. That should tell the Deputy what socialism is.

It is a new departure.

A Cheann Comhairle, is it fair for Deputies who are too lazy to make a speech to spend the night putting questions?

I was very rudely interrupted by these gentlemen some time ago.

That is no reason why the Deputy should interrupt now.

I would say the material of the Deputy's speech invited interruption.

Would Deputy Davern allow Deputy O'Connell to continue?

I said I would raise my voice in protest against these measures. I would be failing in my duty if I did not. I shall raise my voice outside this House in protest against it. I shall march in protest against it. It is obvious that Fianna Fáil Deputies do not realise the implications of Part 2 of the Offences Against the State Act. They do not realise what it is to lose one's liberty. We are dealing here with people not figures, people who can be deprived of their liberty and locked away.

Like Czechoslovakia.

That is exactly what it is. It is an attempt to enforce that kind of rule in this country. It will be a very quiet affair. People will just be locked away. I saw a poor lady suffer a stroke when her back door was broken down and her son was dragged from his bed because it was thought he was involved in some plot or other. I think the plots came from over there. New plots and threats are being dreamed up now. Fianna Fáil Deputies are probably not aware of it but I saw the false smile on the Taoiseach's face; it was obvious he was trying to cover up some trouble. I look on Fianna Fáil Deputies as robots. The bell goes and they follow like sheep.

Pavlovian dogs.

They would not know about Pavlov.

Would Deputies address the Chair?

I apologise. Pavlov was an experimental scientist.

I cannot hear the Deputy.

I am talking about the new trouble in the Fianna Fail Party.

We would like to hear I about it.

Another patching up job is being done at the present time. How could Fianna Fáil continue as they were with the explosion within?

This is what surprises the Opposition.

No, it does not surprise us. I am not surprised at anything the Fianna Fail Party do. Power hungry Ministers will try anything to regain lost power. The Government try to adopt measures which will take the limelight away from their own defects by bringing in legislation which will create new scares.

I heard someone say there was a threat on the Taoiseach's life. The head of every country has threats made on his life. Psychopaths and paranoiacs make threats on the Prime Ministers in every country. I did not see any special measures introduced in the United States when the President of the United States was assassinated.

Only 600 personal bodyguards.

I do not think a Special Powers Act or anything like that was brought in.

Just 600 people were employed to ensure his safety.

There was no internment without trial and this is the important thing. The law says everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but under internment without trial there is no question of anyone proving anything; it is all in vain.

There is a right of appeal.

Appeal against what?

There is no charge.

One can appeal against internment.

Does Deputy Davern agree with internment of republicans?

If necessary, yes.

That is Fianna Fail justice for you.

How do we appear in the eyes of the people in the North when they see the threat of the reintroduction of Part 2 of the Offences Against the State Act? Despite intense provocation in the North there was no suggestion of bringing in a measure such as this in the North and, God knows, they had their troubles up there but there was no suggestion of internment without trial. We talk here of human rights, liberty and freedom. We talk about the minority. All we are doing is paying lipservice to these things. How can we talk about reunification? We should be setting an example. We should be showing that freedom is the right of every individual here. Fianna Fáil talk about republicanism. There is no such thing as republicanism in Fianna Fáil. The word is being thrown around like snuff at a wake. I was looking at the Taoiseach's speech on the Motion of Confidence. It is very interesting. At column 1395 of volume 246 of the Official Report the Taoiseach said:

The Fianna Fáil Party was founded in 1926. They had the specific task of restoring national confidence following the tragedy of the Treaty and set out clearly their fundamental aims and objectives which have continued to be the basis of Fianna Fail policies up to the present day. In order to achieve those aims it was not sufficient just to provide an Opposition at that time, as it did, but as quickly as possible to provide an alternative Government to Cumann na nGaedheal. This was the only effective way in which the republican ideal could be restored, our aspirations to reunify the country could be fulfilled....

That was in 1932. They had aspirations. That was some 38 years ago. The first thing that should have been done was to bring our social services up to the level of those in Northern Ireland. Fianna Fáil took office in 1932 in order to fulfil their aspirations. In 1970 expenditure on social services in the Republic per head of the population is less than half that in Northern Ireland. Fianna Fáil made no effort to fulfil that aspiration. That was the first barrier they should have tried to overcome.

(Interruptions)

It is lovely to hear them. They go on and on and on like a cracked record.

(Interruptions.)

Fianna Fáil are the Government and they are trying to bring in repressive measures which will set the country back 50 years.

We are not trying.

Mr. O'Leary

You are going to bring them in?

The Taoiseach said we may.

I think there was a real threat by the Taoiseach today. There is no doubt about that. Fianna Fail have put the country back 50 years and set the headline for the North to impose similar measures up there. If there was any justification for measures like this that justification is in the North.

We have not imposed any such legislation.

The Government have made it clear that unless the so-called threat is removed the Offences Against the State Act will be reintroduced.

So the Deputy sides with the people who threaten?

Would Deputy Davern cease interrupting?

I think he realises now that there were things he should have said when he was speaking but he did not get round to them.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

I was saying that, instead of reuniting the country, Fianna Fail have set the chance of reunification back 50 years. The Stormont Government can point the accusing finger now and ask did we not introduce this repressive legislation first.

(Interruptions.)

I will enlighten the Deputies on the implications of this Draconian measure.

There is nothing introduced.

I wonder if you would remember when the Taoiseach made the profound statement that this measure would be introduced unless this so-called threat were removed. The planes flying into Dublin carried Press correspondents who were expecting to see tanks, and so on, in the centre of Dublin. They thought there was a coup d'etat.

That is right.

The Taoiseach said there was almost an attempt to overthrow the whole State. Do not fool yourself. He said there was a plot and that unless this threat was removed he would introduce this.

(Interruptions)

He did untold damage to tourism in this country for years to come.

Yes, and investment, too.

All the measures taken by Bord Fáilte, and so on, will not wipe out for years the damage that has been done by the Taoiseach to our tourist industry. There is a threat of the introduction of this Draconian measure-Offences Against the State Act, Part 2. What attraction would this country be to people who want a holiday? It is like a Latin American country. Under this Act, people can be interned——

You could be kidnapped.

Who would bother?

It would take a fool to kidnap anybody from the present Government for an afternoon.

We have an irresponsible Taoiseach as is evidenced by the fact that he would make such a statement that would do untold damage to the economy of the country.

Every guest-house keeper will know next year about that disastrous statement.

(Interruptions.)

We can let the rabble run wild——

This threat will be held against us for years to come. We are playing into the hands of the Government in Northern Ireland. That is what this present Government are doing to try to reunify this country. Their aspirations were-1 read it before: "Our aspirations to reunify the country could be fulfilled." This was the purpose in taking office in 1932. So, we do this untold damage to our image abroad.

(Interruptions.)

The rabble are ruling this country. What the hell do you think you are?

Deputies

Oh. Oh.

Behold the great gentleman. Deputy Michael O'Leary. I will not follow him into the mud.

There is one Deputy in possession and he should be allowed to speak. Any interruptions are disorderly.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann-Comhairle

Deputy O'Connell.

When constructive legislation could not have been introduced to try to seek harmony between the Six Counties and the Twenty-six Counties, nothing was done about it. When the obstacles to unity were there and could be seen to be there, something could have been done about it but no constructive legislation to help to reunify the country was introduced here. This Government conveniently forgot about the North until they were awakened to the fact that it existed. They were paying lipservice to this idea of republicanism, or whatever you call it, but nothing was done about them in this field of endeavour. We had a Minister for External Affairs, Deputy Aiken, who spoke in this House with an American accent when answering questions here. He was forever at the United Nations.

(Interruptions.)

I will let the electorate judge me on my record. I do not ask Deputy Meaney for votes.

It comes very poorly from Deputy O'Connell to speak of Deputy Frank Aiken in that fashion. He was a soldier of Ireland when soldiers of Ireland were few. He defended this country and he was a worthy representative abroad. I would not listen to Deputy O'Connell saying anything against Deputy Frank Aiken.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

(Interruptions.)

I have something to say about Deputy Aiken.

Deputy Coughlan will resume his seat.

In 1931, he came down to us in Limerick and the IRA in Kerry——

(Interruptions.)

"I will go back to my mammy."

Deputy Coughlan will resume his seat.

I was a republican soldier then.

(Interruptions.)

I was in the IRA in 1930 when Deputy Frank Aiken came down to us in Tralee and told us what we could do.

Did you not say "I will go home and ask my mother "?

I was a soldier of the Irish Republican Army and an intelligence officer of the IRA in 1930.

(Interruptions.)

Order. If the Deputy will not resume his seat, I shall have to ask him to leave the House. The Deputy will resume his seat.

I will not ask Deputy Meaney to tell me my record. I was a republican soldier in 1930.

(Interruptions.)

Before Deputy O'Connell resumes the Chair would point out——

(Interruptions.)

(Cavan): Deputy de Valera should respect the Chair.

I will discuss it with Deputy Coughlan later.

You will discuss nothing with me. My record is clear. I robbed nobody. I murdered no one. Aiken murdered us all. Deputy Meaney was not even a bad thought then.

"I will ask mammy," he said.

Order, order. The Chair would draw the attention of the House to the fact that parliamentary procedure is being brought into disrepute——

The Labour Party think they are still in Cork where they were last Sunday.

——by these types of interruptions from various sides of the House. If the Deputy in possession is allowed to make his contribution. Deputies who have still to contribute will be able to answer any points raised. We cannot follow parliamentary procedure when the Chair is being ignored and this kind of scene continues. The Chair would be very reluctant to suspend the sitting but it will certainly take that step if it is necessary to do so. Deputy O'Connell.

The interruption was unjustified. I did not see, in my short time here, any attempts by the then Minister for External Affairs, Deputy Frank Aiken, to restore the unity of this country. Whatever revolutionary fire he had in his belly was very quickly extinguished when he came into this House. I am not going to be the judge of his republicanism——

The Deputy will keep to the Taoiseach's Estimate.

He was a Free Stale soldier. It is an historical fact.

I am talking about the record of this Government and the efforts they have made to reunify our country: nothing, to my knowledge, was done in that respect by that ex-Minister for External Affairs, Deputy Aiken. They conveniently forgot about the North until it came up in violence. Then we found we had all sorts of pseudo republicans and super republicans in that party vying with each other as to what constitutes republicanism. Deputy Burke can conveniently leave now.

The Deputy should address the Chair.

If the Deputy wants to make this a personal matter.

I do not. I do not know what kind of republican or gunman Deputy Aiken was. I judge him on his performance as a Minister. I should like to have seen the Taoiseach and Minister for External Affairs take the initiative and talk to the British Premier and the Northern Premier and decide that there should be regular consultations on how we might bring about the reunification of the country. I should like them to get some assurance from Britain that the subsidy to Northern Ireland would continue for a certain time while we try to reach a solution.

It is not enough to say, when questions are asked, that there are no meetings in view and that nothing is being done. The Taoiseach must constantly take the initiative and see what can be done. He must constantly raise the matter with the Prime Ministers of Britain and Northern Ireland. He has not seen the Northern Prime Minister since he took office: the Taoiseach has admitted that in the House. This is a country that should be united. There is no reason why it should not. We should be telling the people in the North that we are very anxious to have them with us and we should improve our social services so that they do not form an obstacle. The articles in our Constitution that are an obstacle should be removed as early as possible. That is the kind of legislation that should come before this House.

We are doing that.

We have been hearing about this for a long time. The Taoiseaoh says he is going to do it but it is always put off until to-morrow. His motto seems to be: never do to-day what you can put off until to-morrow. What constructive legislation has been brought in by this Government? Instead we see repressive legislation, which is no example to the people in the North who might be seriously thinking of unity. Now they can point a finger at us: we are the cause of the trouble.

The record of the present Government on social services, health and employment is very bad. I have given facts and figures to show how bad it is. We have seen the land depopulated. When we went up to Donegal——

(Interruptions.)

I am not ashamed to talk about Donegal and about our candidate there. I spoke to one man who said "I might lose my pension". I asked "How old are you?" and he said "Seventy-two". I said "How can you lose your old age pension. You are entitled to it." He said "I am not; they can take it off me." I said: "They cannot do that." He replied: "That is what you think." I said "They will not know how you voted," and his reply was "Indeed, they will. They knew how I voted in 1948."

The Deputy has a marvellous imagination.

That is exactly what he said. The Government have done this from Donegal to Kerry. They have told the people that if they voted a certain way their pensions would be taken from them.

I am sorry for the Deputy. I understand.

This is the kind of Government we have running the country. That is why they got the votes in Donegal.

(Interruptions.)

On a point of order, I think Deputy O'Connell should withdraw what he has said because no threats were made.

That is not a point of order.

I made a similar statement in this House concerning a man who wrote to me from Galway about his application for a labourer's cottage. The Parliamentary Secretary —not Deputy Geoghegan-went to his house and said that if he wrote to me or anyone like me he would see that the man did not get a house.

We are discussing the Taoiseach's Estimate.

This is the Government that tell us they have a majority in Donegal. The young people are missing up there.

(Interruptions.)

These interruptions should cease.

This is how Fianna Fail retain power. It is nothing to be proud of. I should not be grinning and laughing if I were in power on that basis. I should feel ashamed if we had to make threats to the people to retain power.

We got votes on our merits.

(Interruptions.)

The example I gave is typical of what is happening.

You confused the people in Donegal.

We see what action the Government take to retain power, but I can see an end coming to this situation because there are people growing up able to think for themselves; they will not be driven by fear. The mass media will change people's minds about things and enlighten them. Years ago we did not know what happened or how this Government were working. We did not realise their corruption but the young people now are realising it.

We welcome enlightenment.

Opportunities are there for people now whether the Government like it or not.

Of course the people see it. They have shown that recently. We welcome enlightenment.

That will sound the death knell of Fianna Fáil. They cannot prevent people becoming more enlightened. They cannot hold back the tide of enlightenment.

We welcome it.

That tide will sweep you out of office and that will be a great day for this country, because the unionism in the North is nothing to the Fianna Fáil Party. Now, they decide if they cannot hold office by democratic means they will bring in repressive legislation.

The concentration camps will finish them again.

We have seen the disastrous blunders of the Government in the Anglo-lrish Free Trade Agreement. We are not having proper discussion on the negotiations taking place with the EEC. We are not being informed of what is happening. We see the redundancies resulting from the Anglo-lrish Free Trade Agreement. The figure for fully assembled imported cars has gone up from 486 in 1966 to 8,540 in 1969. If that does not spell the death of car assembly here I do not know what does.

The Deputy's car was imported.

It was assembled in this country.

Large Mercedes are foreign cars.

It was assembled here.

It was assembled in our constituency.

Deputy Dowling's colleague is enlightening him.

Is Dublin SouthWest foreign to Deputy Dowling?

Deputy Sherwin knows that constituency. He knows the problems of that constituency.

I live in the constituency.

The point is well taken at Deputy Dowling's expense.

The country saw chaos in the economic field during the year when the Government by their ill-considered action allowed the bank strike to continue. We have not seen the effects of this bank strike yet. I read a report in an American magazine about it and it said that no country in the world could have survived a bank strike such as happened here.

Thank you for the tribute.

It was certainly not due to any action by the Government. They allowed this strike to continue. We do not know how we stand.

Shame on the Government. They have brought bankruptcy to people who never thought they would be bankrupts. This was caused by the ineptitude of the Government in not taking action.

Will Deputy O'Connell please resume his seat? It seems to the Chair that Deputies on all sides of the House are not prepared to co-operate with the Chair.

Address your remarks to the people over there. Sir.

The Chair is addressing its remarks to all parts of the House and not to anybody in particular. It is becoming impossible for the Chair to continue the debate so long as Deputies are passing remarks to one another. The ordinary rules of debate in the House allow the Deputy in possession to make his statement. Other Deputies ought to promote order in the House by not interrupting.

They are hindering you in your work, Sir.

Deputy O'Connell without interruption.

We have seen what happened here in the bank strike because of inaction by the Government. I found out yesterday that we will not know the true position resulting from this strike for at least another month and perhaps longer. I believe we will have repercussions worse than those following the closure of the Hibernian Transport Company when men were thrown out of employment and found themselves abandoned. There was no prior warning here, as there was in the bank strike, and there was no way for the workers to know the situation.

The Government have encouraged foreign industry to come here. They should, instead, have encouraged foreign expertise to come here. The only thing those new industries have guaranteed is employment. Profits went out of the country tax free. The employment given is not secure. We have had mergers and take-overs by foreign interests. An article by "Maynard" in the Sunday Press of the 6th December stated:

Transferring control of an Irish firm into foreign hands differs I suppose from the setting up of a new firm. Profits for example will tend to be sent abroad so the country loses to that extent.

We see more and more of those mergers and rationalisations. As a result more and more of our workers are thrown out of employment. We have an obligation to our workers. If foreign interests are allowed to come in here the Government should have a representative on the boards of those companies to see that the interests of the workers are protected. This is very important for the country. We should safeguard the interests of our workers.

This is another example of workers not counting. Those people are allowed in here without any control. The interests of the workers are not the concern of the Government in the Prices and Incomes Bill. The present Government have not shown that they are interested in bringing constructive legislation into this Dáil. We have recommended reform of the Dáil. that there should be some attempt to bring the Dail into line with present day conditions so that we have a proper Dail functioning. This initiative should have come from the Taoiseach. No attempt has been made to reunify our country and to protect our workers. Unemployment is on the increase here. due to the fact that the Government have no policy. They are changing from day to day.

The Third Programme is a philosophical dissertation. It does not give any real plan for the coming year. The Government did this because their Second Programme was a disaster. We would have supported the Government if they had come in with constructive legislation but we will not tolerate this threat by them. We will oppose this legislation all the way.

Deputy O'Connell tried very hard to give us the Labour Party thoughts on the Government. If we feel confused about socialism I am afraid we do not get much help from Deputy O'Connell on the matter. At the start of his speech he compared the Fianna Fail Government with Adolf Hitler, the late German Chancellor, and because we pointed out that Adolf Hitler was a socialist Deputy O'Connell poured scorn on our ignorance and told us to read history. Somebody at one time said: "He who at 20 is not a Socialist has no heart and he who at 40 is a Socialist has no head." If we take the socialism which Deputy O'Connell speaks about in the classical context of Lenin or Marx we can then see that you can today equate a socialist with Adolf Hitler or with Chairman Mao. We would never accuse the Labour Party of being followers of either Hitler or Chairman Mao, but this House has a right to expect a serious contribution in this most serious debate. To go down the by-ways of Labour Party socialism and to come out then as the Deputy did in defence of English capitalists is just too much for the Deputies on this side of the House.

We do not claim that we are super rulers, super socialists or anything else. We believe in social justice and we feel each Irish man, woman and child should in his own country have a fair share of the national wealth. We do not go around spouting about our just society or our new socialism. We simply preach a doctrine which has been preached here since the beginning of Irish nationalism. We believe in this. Perhaps we are being very simple people when we try to look after the aged and underprivileged. We try to create employment for our people and not only to raise the standard of life but also to raise the quality of life of our people.

We do not claim to have a monopoly of the interest in and care for Irish people. By their action the people have given us this task over many years. At each succeeding election since 1932 our party has been returned as the biggest party in this House. On two occasions, by a combination of Fine Gael and Labour, an inter-Party or coalition Government was formed. Today if coalition is a dirty word, the people over there can be blamed, not us.

What made it a dirty word? Your propaganda.

You made it a dirty word by your treatment of the old age pensioners. We will deal with that. They have the Just Society——

(Cavan): What sort of a coalition have you over there?

——and they offered 10d a week over three years to the old age pensioners. They gave nothing at all to the widows and the unemployed. How did they solve the housing problem in this city? Not by building more houses but by having too few people here. I was a member of Dublin Corporation with some of Deputy O'Connell's colleagues, ex-Deputy Denis Larkin and others. I remember Deputy Dowling and others of us being sent around to the banks looking for money. At that time the banks were merely polite to us. They told us to go, that there was no money there. This is why this city cried out for more and better houses.

That is the system we have in which capitalist banks are more concerned with making money than seeing to the priorities. I agree with the Deputy.

This is one of the fantasies the Labour Party chase. They will build houses and create jobs and build up the economy without using such institutions as the banks, and without even using money. The Labour Party will have to come to grips with life. They never define their socialism. They just say they will build more houses and create more jobs but they never say how they will do this.

Read our document.

I read your document and I had nightmares after it. I read the Fine Gael document and the Labour document. What are they? All the old clichés, the usual old shibboleths and the usual old promises. They never come to anything. It reminds me of Alice in Wonderland and Jam yesterday, jam tomorrow but never jam today. Both parties and particularly the Labour Party are not "with it". The Irish people, who are highly intelligent, return Fianna Fáil to office at each election. Why should they not? We are not a very sophisticated people but we are an intelligent people. The people will go on returning Fianna Fáil to Government until such time as an alternative is offered to them.

In 1969 at the time of the last election the Labour Party made a great showing. Indeed, I admired their agility if not their ability. They fought a hard battle but you cannot sell a bad product despite advertising, and the Labour Party came back with a loss of four seats.

Gerrymandered constituencies.

I am glad Deputy O'Connell mentioned gerrymandering. At the time of the Referendum on the PR system, both Fine Gael and Labour speakers in this House, at the crossroads and on the Dublin streets said that they wanted to hold on to PR because under PR you could not gerrymander and under the straight vote you could. In their wisdom the people kept the PR system. The Opposition cannot have it both ways. If they said you could not gerrymander under PR they cannot now accuse us of having gerrymandered the constituencies. They know in their hearts and soul that we did not do that.

(Cavan): The Deputy is codding.

Such hyprocrisy. They will never have another Kevin Boland.

They said you could not gerrymander under PR.

(Cavan): We never said anything of the kind.

We never said any such thing.

You had the alternative and you would not accept it.

The Irish people decided to keep the PR system under which Fine Gael and Labour said you could not gerrymander.

(Cavan): That is not correct.

It is true.

I cannot quote tonight.

I appreciate the Deputy's problems.

Deputy Moore should be allowed to make his contribution.

Perhaps that is a small point now because we have the PR system.

(Cavan): And gerrymandering.

No gerrymandering. We have a Fianna Fail Government with a very large majority.

Less votes and more seats. How do you do it?

Ask the Irish people.

Ask Kevin Boland.

Each area must be taken on its own. In Britain under the straight voting system the same thing happens. You cannot equate every seat with every vote. I do not want to further denigrate the Fine Gael or the Labour Party. The Irish people are wise to them now. In our life today there are much more serious matters to be dealt with than chasing socialist shadows.

At the moment in this city of ours we have roughly 8,000 applications for houses to Dublin Corporation. That is quite a large number and one which should not be there. I do not think we should accept that we will always have 8,000 people on our waiting list and neither does the Minister. He believes that we can have a comprehensive housing drive. The figures show that at present 2,500 dwellings are being built and we have plans for another 6,000 dwellings. When those 2,500 are completed plus the ones which are planned, it may be said that there will be no housing problem but this is not true.

I have said before that no living city ever solves its housing problem. The population of this city and this country is growing and therefore we must build more houses. The Government, under the Taoiseach, by judicious budgeting has been able to provide sufficient money to keep up the housing drive. We will not go back to the period of 1956-57 when the building trade ground to a halt. That is all in the past now. In the building trade at the moment we can thankfully say that not only have we full employment but we have overemployment.

In a speech a few weeks ago, addressing the builders' federation, the Taoiseach pointed out that there was a great degree of inflation in the building trade and that we must tackle this if we are to provide enough dwellings and also dwellings at rents which people can afford, or dwellings at loan rates which those Who purchase houses can afford.

This was not just another speech because already the Minister had announced his plan for low cost housing. He invited contractors and developers to come along with their proposals for lower cost housing. I am glad to say that the contractors and developers are co-operating with the Department. We may well see in the next few months some worthwhile ideas not alone in regard to the provision of more dwellings but in regard to the provision of dwellings at cheaper rates than we have had up to the present.

It is said that one cannot build bridges with straw and one cannot build houses without bricks. One cannot employ labour on a building scheme and one cannot buy the materials or the land unless one has got the necessary money in the National Exchequer to pay the carpenter, the plumber and the bricklayer for his work or the landowner for his land. Therefore, it takes wise husbandry on the part of the Government to build the economy to stand the strain of this great housing drive. We in this Party are very determined never again to allow our building industry to crumble as it did in 1956-57 when we saw thousands of our craftsmen having to leave and go to build houses in Birmingham, London or Liverpool. We want the men back here working in their own country. Thank God many of them have come back.

The last census showed for the first time since the famine an increase in population. We believe that at the moment emigration is at a very low level. We will never be happy until we see all involuntary emigration stopped. There will always be people who will emigrate for different reasons. They are right to do so if they want to, but we do not think of them: we think of the man who wants to live and rear his family in his own country. He is entitled to do this.

This all takes bold leadership by a Government and that Government must also have the trust of all sections of the people. A fortnight ago we had two tests of public opinion on this-one in Donegal and one in South County Dublin. The Government won the Donegal seat. They did not win the Government seat in County Dublin but there were over 8,000 people there who endorsed the Fianna Fáil candidate.

(Cavan): And 14,000 who did not.

Of course, if one starts to juggle figures like that one can say there were 14,000 who did not vote for Fine Gael either if one lumps our vote with that of the Independents and Labour.

You are the Government.

Of course, we are the Government. Who made us the Government except the people?

They did not show much enthusiasm for you in the recent by-election.

They did not show much enthusiasm for you either. Your percentage dropped in Dublin South County.

Perhaps we could leave the by-election and come to the Estimate?

I am quoting Deputy FitzGerald's leader. Of course, Deputy FitzGerald may not believe his own leader. I think he is quite an honest man and I take his word on that point anyway.

I am concerned with actual figures.

The people have put the Fianna Fáil Government here and the Fianna Fáil Government have justified their trust. When I hear people shouting about concentration camps and Chancellor Hitler and others I know it is only to make up for any reasoned argument against the Fianna Fáil Government or for the Opposition. It is said that the people get the Government they deserve, but I do not think it can be said that the Irish people deserve the Opposition they have. Until the Labour Party and the Fine Gael Party either coalesce or decide not to coalesce the people will be a little confused about their intentions. However, they will always have a united Fianna Fáil Party to go before them and offer themselves as a viable Government interested in social justice and the building of this nation.

We do not believe in gimmicks like the Just Society or the New Republic. The New Republic has the Plough and the Stars on its cover but in recent times we have seen evidence that the Plough and the Stars will be hauled down very shortly. I wonder if it will appear on the election propaganda next time or will Fine Gael say: “It is far too socialist for us. Take it off your cover ”? It does not matter whether they do or not, but if they consider coalition in all honesty they should coalesce before the election. Why did they not put forward a coalition candidate in Dublin South County or in Donegal?

In the housing drive for Dublin we see evidence all round us in the city and in the county of the drive to eradicate all bad housing and overcrowding of families and to give a proper dwelling to each family, to clear the slums which 50 years ago were the worst in Europe. One very often hears the Deputies on my left shouting: "Declare a housing emergency." Not only them but I have heard other people in the city who should know better say the same. They never fully explain what they mean by this, whether they intend to dragoon labour into the building industry or what kind of emergency powers they want or how they would do it. One just gets vague proposals or non-proposals.

In this document—I am speaking of Dublin at the moment—there are details of the housing drive. From these figures one will see that perhaps in two years time the housing waiting list will be reduced greatly not because people have fled the country, but even with an increase in population we will have a better housed society. If I make a special plea for Dublin it is because, according to the Myles Wright Report, by 1980 or 1984 we will have a million people in this city. I would not want the city to get that big. At the same time it is a world wide feature that cities grow larger and larger. Since the industrial revolution people have been heading towards the cities and the bright lights. We must accept this fact. We have people coming here from all parts, even from outside the country. We must create conditions whereby it will be possible for all people qualifying for houses to have them. We must not only increase the numbers but we must raise the value of each dwelling. We have had experience since 1932 in house building and we are improving each new scheme, and this is only right.

I am convinced that we are on the right line in regard to housing. Simply by declaring a housing emergency or using some other cliché will not add one room to the existing stock of houses. It takes wise planning with the co-operation of the unions and all sections of the community; none are excluded. Please God, in a very short time we will have seen the last vestiges of really bad housing. We will still have a problem of overcrowding and this is the second stage of the housing drive. When we reach that stage we can examine the progress of the programme. If the Government are satisfied that there are people who are not properly and adequately housed then we will continue the drive. A throw-up of houses here and there is not going to raise the standard of living in the city. We must have proper planning and ensure that any co-operative scheme will be as well landscaped, and the roads in it as good, as any scheme of private development.

I am not saying that because a man living on a suburban road has something a man living elsewhere must have the same thing. I do think we have basic needs to fill and the man living in any part of the city is entitled to expect that the Government will create conditions so that he can live in a proper house, that he will have a job and proper educational facilities for his children. In regard to education we can point to the tremendous breakthrough which has been effected by the Government in secondary education.

That is the Fine Gael Just Society policy.

The word "education" does not appear in the Fine Gael policy, I am told.

That is not true.

If the Government do something which is good, it is Fine Gael policy; but if they do anything bad, it is not. They can go on claiming that. It is like the moral victories they claim when they lose elections. If the Fine Gael Party want to claim our policy they can because we have so many good points in it.

Have you a written policy?

There is one on housing. Let Fine Gael produce anything like that.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Moore, without interruption.

I do not mind if Deputy Barry and Deputy FitzGerald want to claim part of our policy.

I am saying that you are claiming our policy.

They have been doing that all their lives. The people are not fooled so easily; they vote for the party with the policy and not the party who claim they have a policy. In regard to planning, it is a tremendous problem not only in this city but in Cork, Limerick, Galway, Waterford, Wexford and the larger towns. At the moment we are in need of a tremendous urban renewal drive. We see this in every city and larger town and there is evidence that we have got to tackle it at a greater rate than we have been able to do up to this.

Many of these places would be better places to live in if we had a greater drive for re-development in them. Again, this takes wise government and a sound economy, because this has to be paid for and planned. From our past experience we should be able to keep on improving the appearance of and the conditions in each city and town. We should design our cities and towns so that our people can live in them as human beings and not have to face miles and miles of concrete jungle. We should have all the playing fields, roads and other amenities needed in any urban society.

And concentration camps.

The Deputy has come back from the you-know-where. I must put up with his humour for another five minutes. We are big enough to do that. The Deputy mentioned concentration camps.

(Interruptions.)

I think the Deputy, by his recent actions, perhaps, did suggest that he was not altogether against the people who had large concentration camps here a few years ago.

I am always against concentration camps. I was against them when, in 1931——

Deputy Coughlan will cease interrupting. Deputy Moore is in possession.

(Interruptions.)

I just wanted to remind the Deputy there of his past.

As the Deputy has no policy, he must be offensive.

I am telling the truth.

He is back in 1931. Chairman Mao will be in power before the Deputy wakes up. I was referring to planning, which is a very essential part of our whole national existence. We must plan properly for the amenities that each area needs but at the same time we must not be hypocritical about this. If we are to do it the Government must find money and there will have to be taxation. Let us not come in here crying for amenities and then crying against taxation. No country in the world, whether it is this side or the other side of the Iron Curtain, has found a way to make progress without taxation in some form. The Fianna Fáil Government in their wisdom have brought about the most suitable system of taxation possible.

We are making progress in housing and in planning, but there is one facet of our living in which we are not making progress and that is in regard to the frightful problem of road safety. I know that this is causing the Minister for Local Government great concern and I compliment him on his approach to the matter. For the 11 months ended 30th November, 475 people were killed, an increase of 44 over the same period last year. I know that this is a world problem but this is no consolation to us or to the person who is killed or a person whose relative is killed. If someone here ran amok with a gun and killed two, three or four people there would be no cries about concentration camps then. Each one of us in his own way is responsible to some extent for the road toll.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 17th December, 1970.
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