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Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 9 Jun 1971

Vol. 254 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 26: Local Government (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
Go ndeonófar suim nach mó ná £13,762,000 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31 ú de Mhárta, 1972, le haghaidh tuarastail agus costais Oifig an Aire Rialtais Áitiúil, a chuimsíonn deontais do na húdaráis áitiúla, deontais agus costais eile i dtaca le tithíocht, agus scéimeanna agus deontais ilghnéitheacha, lena náirítear deontais-i-gcabhair.
—(Minister for Local Government.)

When I reported progress I was speaking about the necessity to bring in some regulation which would ensure that heavy motor vehicles would not travel in convoy. It is ridiculous, with the heavy traffic on the roads at present, to see four, five or six very heavy, very long vehicles, travelling nose to tail with only a few feet of a break between them. It is very dangerous to attempt to pass them out. I think existing regulations lay down that there should be a certain distance between them which would allow for passing at ease. If there is not such a regulation it should be introduced immediately.

I should like to compliment the Minister, or perhaps it was his predecessor who was responsible, for accepting a suggestion which I made in this House some years ago with regard to the marking of heavy vehicles. At present almost every heavy vehicle in this State has got markings and this makes it possible to see them at night particularly if they are parked without lights. I would suggest, however, that a statement which the then Minister made that further lighting was being prescribed for such vehicles, different coloured lights at the top and on the sides of vehicles, should be pursued. I also suggested at that time that there should be some method of preventing motor cars from running under high vehicles parked on corners or parked at night. At the time the Minister did not consider it a good idea. While it is not so common now, unfortunately it still happens. Anything that can be done to prevent this sort of accident should be done. The practice of placing a red triangle, which in this country means danger, behind a broken-down vehicle is not followed as often as it should. The Minister might try to ensure that this is done properly.

It has been suggested recently that the safety frames which under the law were to be provided for tractors are not easily obtainable. I recently had a reply from a local authority engineer which suggested that because of the high cost of putting on one of these things he was not prepared to provide it. I would ask the Minister to find out if they are being manufactured in this country on a big enough scale and if they are not would he try to ensure that they will be and ensure also that local authorities are leaders in this field of safety.

The question of itinerants has got an airing in the last few years on the Estimate for Local Government. I am glad the Minister is present because there seems to be a misunderstanding about this. The Minister made a statement about 12 months ago that arrangements had been made whereby the full cost of rehousing of itinerants would be met by his Department. It subsequently transpired that he was not talking about houses but tigíns. This is a question of providing substandard houses and, for the sake of the difference, the Minister should, if the Department are really serious about rehousing itinerants, make provision for the cost of rehousing. The Minister said, when I went with a deputation to meet him, that it would mean that there would be a difference between the treatment of itinerants and of other people who were looking for houses. If for once the scale was weighted in favour of the itinerants I do not think anybody would complain. I should like the Minister to have a look at this.

We would not have a problem then. There would be no problem if there was no difficulty in introducing the itinerants to ordinary housing. But we must be practical about this and admit that there is a difficulty, that they are not used to it and that they have to be integrated slowly. They have to be helped.

I am not prepared to agree at all because of my personal experience. I have known itinerants. They are human beings the same as the Minister and I. If they are given houses some of them may find it a bit odd but most of them have been living in and out of caravans and various types of temporary dwellings for many years. It is only an excuse to say that they have to be, first of all, put into a little house which is far too small for them and bit by bit brought along as if they were some kind of animal that was being experimented with. However, I believe that the provision of housing for itinerants is only half the problem. The provision of jobs is really the big thing because if they get jobs they will settle down and use the houses. If they are given a house, no matter how good it is, and given no means of sustenance except begging or collecting scrap, the scheme is a failure from the start. The provision of caravan sites for them has been partially successful in some cases, not successful in others. I do not think it is the real answer. We must decide that these people should be housed if they want to be housed. Those who do not want to be housed should be written off and should not be a continuing liability, so that they cannot come along when it suits them and say that they want something which they had earlier refused, just as a person who refuses a house will not be reconsidered for a number of years.

I would not agree with the Deputy at all.

The Minister is entitled to disagree with me. I would not be surprised.

I know that.

The Minister has been doing quite a lot to have swimming pools built as, indeed, did his predecessors. They have been talking a lot about it. I was rather surprised when somebody was recently accused of going too fast in providing a swimming pool in Newbridge. The pool had to be locked up for a considerable period because there was not enough money to operate it. This is a short-sighted approach. If somebody does succeed in getting a pool built the full support of the Department should be given to ensure that it is used. It is a dog-in-the-manger attitude to say that these people jumped the queue and got a pool before somebody else who wanted one and therefore the pool would have to be allowed to deteriorate, that they cannot use it. I understand that at present the Department are active in having the pool put into use but it should not require newspaper headlines to have something like this done.

One thing which worries me about the provision of swimming pools, which are an absolute necessity particularly in view of the pollution of some of the waters formerly used for swimming, is the high maintenance cost. In many towns people who are anxious to provide pools do not seem to realise the high cost of maintenance. It should be made very clear to those providing a pool that when the pool is built every effort must be made to provide the necessary money to maintain it. There is no point in providing a pool if it is subsequently found impossible to protect it—unfortunately a swimming pool, like everything else, does need protection—and to ensure that it is kept in order, that heating and cleaning are provided. There is not sufficient attention given to this aspect.

A very sore point in my constituency is the question of malicious injury. The Minister is the person in the gap to take the necessary steps to have the Malicious Injuries Act repealed. It can be replaced by insurance, voluntary or otherwise. It is too ridiculous for words that persons, allegedly from outside, can come into Meath, cause hundreds of thousands of pounds of malicious damage and then can just go back to wherever they came from, leaving the ratepayers of the county to shoulder the burden. In their former colonies the British used the old selective punishment system. Somebody did something and everybody in the area was punished unless the offender was produced. This has been repealed even by Britain. In this country even though the offenders are produced—in many cases they are the sons and daughters of wealthy people—they are not asked to make recompense but the ratepayers of the country in which the damage occurred are asked to bear the burden. There must be a better way of dealing with this matter. It is not right to continue the system whereby local rates carry the impost.

Over the Whit weekend there was an invasion of the east coast and north-east coast by young hippies—I suppose that is what they call themselves—from this city. They did not exactly improve the appearance of the place and when they got a few drinks they proceeded to do a considerable amount of damage. They broke windows and damaged cars. Is it not just too bad that they were able to hike off home again leaving the ratepayers of the country to pay for the damage they did? Even though some of the offenders were arrested, the damage will have to be paid for by the ratepayers. There is no reason why this system should be allowed to continue. When the top of Nelson Pillar was blown off and a considerable amount of damage was caused, the Government introduced a Bill which indemnified the ratepayers against paying for the damage. The amount was paid out of State funds. The Malicious Injuries Act should be repealed.

I mentioned last year, and it is no harm to mention it again, a case where two mentally defective boys of 12-14 years of age destroyed by fire a school they had broken into in order to get a few pennies that they had seen in it earlier that day. It was a school for mentally defective children. The damage cost £11,000 to £12,000. The children were taken to court. The justice decided that as they were mentally defective he could not punish them. The insurance company refused to pay unless there was a case taken for malicious injury against the county council. The judge decided that the two children were able to commit a malicious act and the ratepayers of Meath paid £11,000 as a result. I do not think anything could be more ridiculous than that. There should be a way of preventing this sort of thing from happening. The Act should be repealed and replaced by something more up-to-date.

This matter has a connection with fire services. Every local authority attempt to provide as good a fire service as possible but the situation is that the insurance companies, who benefit by the fire service because if fires are prevented the insurance companies will not have to pay for fire damage, have consistently refused to pay anything towards the maintenance and the cost of fire services. A fire service is a relatively expensive item. A number of people give their time to training in the fire service and in fighting fires. The Minister is aware that representations have been made to him on a number of occasions to have something done about the remuneration of part-time fire fighters. As in the case of the overtime that I referred to earlier in relation to the payment of rents for council houses, income tax is deducted from the money earned in fire fighting. It is assessed as income for all purposes, including rent and medical cards. As a result, those who engage in fire fighting usually find themselves, if not at a loss, with very little gained for frequently spending a night out fighting a fire in order to save somebody's property, or in some cases public property.

The question of dumps has been mentioned. We have reached the stage where if we are really serious about eliminating pollution of water, roads and woods, we must do something about a refuse collection on a county scale. Some counties have been collecting refuse from villages, towns and sizeable groups of houses but for the past few years it has become a common occurrence for somebody to buy a site, perhaps one-third of an acre, if he is lucky, or one-eighth of an acre, if he is not, and to build a bungalow on it. He has no place to put the household refuse.

Long ago, a farmer could burn or bury refuse but the person who has only a few yards at the back of his house has no way of getting rid of refuse. In some areas it has been found to be extremely difficult to acquire sites for dumping and the lack of such sites has resulted in people dumping refuse where ever they found it convenient to do so. Indeed, some beauty spots have been spoiled by this practice. People who are guilty of such practice may think it is all right so long as the dump is not near them, in the same way as others regard itinerants. Perhaps the answer to this problem would be the provision of lorries that would collect over wide areas. The material collected could then be compressed and dumped at a central site that could be attended properly and covered when full.

The Minister referred to the granting of votes at 18 and said that while he was of the opinion they would be granted, he did not think they would be put into operation until after a referendum had taken place. Of course, in the case of local elections, there would be no need for a referendum to allow for voting at the earlier age. I agree entirely with the suggestion that this would be one way of testing public reaction to the change. There is no reason why persons who have reached the age of 18 should not be included on next year's register for local government elections.

Another matter in regard to local Government elections which should be attended to by the Department concerns electoral areas. Down through the years electoral areas have not been changed in many counties with the result that in some areas there may be the ridiculous situation of 17,000 being represented by five councillors while in a neighbouring area there may be seven councillors representing 10,000 people. This is a matter for the local authorities but perhaps they might be sent a reminder from the Department that before the next local elections they might attempt to redraft their areas. This would be a good start towards having the matter dealt with properly. It would not affect party strength very much because what one gains on the swings he loses on the roundabouts. The only result would be fairer representation.

I represent a county council area which starts near The Naul on the Dublin border, continues to Balbriggan, to Drogheda, to Ardee, to Carrickmacross and finishes beside Kingscourt. That is a ridiculously long stretch of local council area. It is bigger than some of the Dáil constituencies. These areas should be redrafted in a way that would render them more manageable. After all county councillors are unpaid representatives of the people and the least they are entitled to is a little more co-operation.

One final point relates to the changing of the name of An Uaimh to Navan. On two occasions I have asked the Minister by way of parliamentary question whether he proposes to make this change before the 30th of June. A vote was taken there on the matter, practically everybody who could vote cast a vote, and most of those voted for the change to Navan. Some people would have us believe that there is something unpatriotic about the use of the word "Navan" but that was the name of the town before ever An Uaimh was thought of. As every schoolchild knows it is a lot easier to spell Navan than it is to spell An Uaimh.

When was it first changed?

It was called Navan while the British were here and as in lots of other cases it was reckoned that in some way it would be a slap in the face to the British to change the name. Unfortunately what the people who changed it forgot was that before ever the British came what was there then was a village, the name of which was much nearer to Navan than An Uaimh. The position is that unless the name is changed officially by the Minister before the 30th June it cannot be changed officially on the 1st January, 1972 by the urban council. Therefore, I ask the Minister to deal with this matter in a democratic way. After all, the vote was a democratic one. I need hardly appeal to the Minister not to be codded by those pseudo-nationalists who try to give the impression that because they like the name "An Uaimh", that name should remain. I am glad to say that Navan is a town which exports in a big way not only to Great Britain but to the Continent but for years past business people have been complaining about the difficulty experienced in trying to find telephone numbers in Navan. It is interesting to know that the urban council is listed in the telephone directory as Navan Urban Council. There is a big future for Navan especially since there have been huge mining finds there. I appeal to the Minister to exercise his right to change the name of the town. This is an appropriate time to do so. There is not even anything political in this because the Minister's party, as well as my party, were split on the voting for the change. The important thing is that there was a vote and that this resulted overwhelmingly in favour of the change. The Minister should not delay his decision so as to allow for the necessary arrangements to be made for the official change of the name from the 1st January, 1972.

My first duty is to compliment the Minister on having presented us with a comprehensive document concerning the many matters with which his Department must deal. I would go so far as to say that this is the most comprehensive document that I have seen here from any Minister for Local Government. I wish the Minister good luck. With his Departmental officials he has got down to his job and it is obvious that he is anxious to give us something worthwhile.

There are a few aspects of the Estimate with which I wish to deal. The first concerns the White Paper. I am not keen on discussing this by way of debate in the House because I would prefer to have a conference first with other councillors in relation to it. However, I have spoken on it at a meeting of the county council but, of course, it would be much better to discuss such matters in circumstances where there could be an exchange of views because the greatest good can be done in this way. The Minister and his Department have their views about making Dublin part of greater Dublin. I have been on two sides of the fence. I have been an alderman of Dublin Corporation and a county councillor. There is room for exchange of views between both these local authorities and between these authorities and the Minister's Department. Many statements have been made at county council meetings in moments of heat. The Minister should meet the representatives of the city and of the county of Dublin and Dún Laoghaire and discuss these problems.

As a representative of the county, I would like to retain the identity of county Dublin as a distinct area. There are problems. The city boundary has been moved outwards many times in recent years. The corporation are buying land in County Dublin. There is a problem in connection with the county manager. I know that while he is manager of the city and county of Dublin he has problems. We have co-ordination in some services. There is co-ordination in planning. The city and county of Dublin have one officer dealing with roads. I do not wish to deal with health as this is a matter for the Eastern Regional Health Board. A number of problems have been overcome by goodwill. The city is bursting at its seams. We should be able to discuss the problems. There is a chance of dealing with county Dublin and the city of Dublin and still leaving county Dublin its own identity. If county Dublin loses its identity we can do no more about it.

A number of areas have been assimilated into the city of Dublin. They have become part and parcel of the city. There were a number of urban councils in the suburbs of Dublin. They were at Rathmines, Pembroke and Howth. The city is expanding rapidly. The plan for county Dublin is on display at the Black Church in Parnell Square at the moment. We have made an estimate of the growth of population in Lucan, Blanchardstown, Clondalkin, Tallaght, Balbriggan, Donabate and other areas. There will be large centres of population in such areas within 20 years. In one such areas there will be a population of 50,000 people in 25 years time, if the growth of our economy continues as at present. I am asking the Minister to meet the local authorities and to discuss this problem.

I was a member of Dublin Corporation for ten years. I am still an alderman. That office has not been taken from me yet. There were 45 members on the Dublin Corporation from the time of the last election in 1967 until the corporation was abolished. Almost 40 speeches were made at every meeting. Some of the members spoke two or three times. I was on the corporation for seven years at another period. There were a number of committees in existence at that time. Each committee was set up to advise in housing, water, sewerage or planning. There were a number of cultural activities also. Reports were sent in from time to time and were accepted. In the lifetime of the last corporation motions on the agenda were hardly ever reached. The whole business was concerned with dealing with the committees. We have 25 members on Dublin County Council. There is plenty of work for the members. There are two meetings a week and we rarely finish the agenda. County Dublin should be better treated because it is a developing county. Satellite towns will be built, now that we have spent so much money on water and sewerage in various parts of the county. There will be large centres of population in Tallaght, Clondalkin, Lucan, Blanchardstown, Swords Balbriggan, Donabate and——

The Deputy is forgetting about Skerries.

——Malahide. All these areas will become centres of population. There are many problems to be solved in the county. We have a big housing programme. Thousands of acres have been bought for housing. In the proposed scheme there will be one chairman dealing with Greater Dublin. He will be dealing also with Dún Laoghaire and Rathdown. This document was prepared before the Minister came into office as Minister for Local Government. Councillors are very important people in their areas because they are well-known to the people. Much of our work as Deputies is county council work. As Deputy Tully said, we are unpaid county council members. We spend much of our time dealing with county council business. A Deputy finds himself in a planning office or in a social welfare office or looking for a medical card. I have a full-time secretary and I try to do a lot of work myself. We have a miniature Dáil. I am not antiMinister in saying this. I am merely pointing to what is a huge problem in regard to the administration of affairs in our county. Then there are a number of sub-committees of the council. The population in the county has increased by three times the number it was when I was elected first. There are the areas of Clondalkin, Blanchardstown, Palmerstown——

Ballymun.

Yes, Ballymun, and Clonsilla. It should be possible to work out a system for the administration of the city and county. That could be done by discussions around a table. I made a rather ironic speech at a county council meeting. It was not worth a trahneen because I was saying something at a distance. If it were possible to have a meeting between the Minister, the officers of his Department and some of our own officers along with some of the members of the Dublin County Council—I would not say the 25 members because that would be too unwieldy— a certain amount of give and take could be agreed upon. In Dublin the county manager has delegated his authority. There are assistant county managers with various responsibilities. There is an assistant county manager dealing with planning, an assistant county manager for County Dublin generally, an assistant county manager dealing with housing in the city, an assistant county manager dealing with traffic, and an assistant county manager for Dún Laoghaire. I would not like to see public representatives being denied the greater say in local authority affairs. I have yet to meet the public representative, no matter to what party he belongs, who is not conscientious. He may indulge in a little politics in regard to the election of a chairman or something like that, but when he gets down to work he does his best for the people. I do not want to see County Dublin becoming one entity. Jokingly I call it my ecclesiastical area and my bishopric would vanish if my area was to become part of Greater Dublin.

I had the experience of travelling in a few countries with the local authority committees delegations to the Council of Europe and was able to study their systems of election. For instance, in very small towns in France they had a mayor and the office lent a great deal of dignity to such towns. If the town wanted to entertain a distinguished visitor they could do it out of town funds. All they had to do was send in their estimate of the cost. We were entertained many times by the mayor of Strasbourg and other officials.

If the present system is abolished and local areas are merged into a greater unit we will just become a cog in a great machine and we will lose the personal touch which it is so necessary for public representatives to maintain with the people. In Britain they created the area called Greater London. The system was found to be unworkable and the area had to be broken up into boroughs and each borough had its mayor. Then it had to be broken up into smaller committees. If this whole trend today of having regional committees, which is so impersonal, is not arrested, public representatives will become disillusioners. If there is such an entity as Greater Dublin and if there is a proposal for a water scheme for Clondalkin or North County Dublin, the city members will prefer to discuss a proposal for their own area. This is only human nature. A member representing Rathmines will be more concerned about that area than he will be about a place like St. Patrick's Island off Skerries or some other place like that which is of interest to me.

Does the Deputy not own the island?

I will answer the Deputy when I meet him on the Adjournment. The Minister or an officer of his Department may say: "Is Dublin city not already going out into the county?" I admit that it is and that it will be going out for the next 100 or 200 years. I agree with the Minister that some more intimate working arrangement should be arrived at between the city and the county while we are under one manager, but not to the extent of taking away County Dublin as we know it. I am saying that as sincerely as I can. I would ask the Minister to consider seriously what I have told him. With my colleagues on the Dublin County Council, the city manager and our officials, we will discuss this matter in a calm, cool atmosphere. There must be give and take. I could speak for two hours on this problem.

There is also the idea of having a local representative from a local committee but as soon as any of these people are given power over the elected representatives things are not the same. We had an example of that with the Eastern Regional Health Board. On the very first day they appointed their own chairman. I know the Minister has nothing to do with this, but I can see these things happening. Public representatives have responsibilities and they are anxious about their own areas. Before the Minister makes any final decision I should like to discuss this matter with him again. Housing is one of our big problems in Dublin County. There are over 2,000 people on the waiting list. I am talking off the cuff now.

That is approximately correct.

We are disappointed that progress in housing is so slow. I do not want to cast any reflection on the officials of the Dublin County Council but public representatives are being pressed and abused about the housing programme. We are told that the authority have not got the staff. The salaries of our officials should be raised a little because a number of Dublin County Council officials, especially technical people, were taken over by builders who gave them twice as much money as we could give them. We lost some of our top men. If we want a good man we will have to pay him. That is our problem.

I asked one builder how many houses he built in a year. He has only a small staff but, of course, he has no red tape to contend with. When he gets planning permission the sky is the limit. He told me he built 400 houses a year. Another builder told me he builds a house every day. The small and large builders have contributed very largely to our housing situation. But for them we would be in a very bad way. We have built a great number of houses in the city and county of Dublin but, while the local authority are building about one-third, private builders are building two-thirds of the houses in the city and county of Dublin.

We have almost 60,000 council houses and flats in the corporation area and we have about 8,000 in the county of Dublin. Nevertheless there is a very big backlog. Since he took office the Minister has been very quick to sanction housing schemes but it takes time to get them off the ground and get started. Very often it is four or five years from the time you get the land until you start building. That should not be the case. I should like the Department to make a note of this and find out if there is any way, through consultation with the manager and our officials, in which it could be speeded up. At meeting after meeting we get housing reports but if we go back 12 months we find that we got almost the same report before.

During the last year in which I was chairman of the Dublin County Council I was very disappointed. We had about 700 houses in the pipeline but we built only 134 in that year. I admit that there was a cement strike but there is always some dead hand. A private builder who has only a few technical people can build from 400 to 500 houses a year. Whatever is wrong with our machinery in the local authority service we do not seem to be able to do the job quickly. Money is not holding us back. There is nothing holding us back that I know of except that we are short of technical staff.

We are going ahead with work on sewerage and water schemes some of which should have been done 20 years ago. We are getting off the ground reasonably well with various schemes in south and north County Dublin. Before we have finished, between sewerage and water schemes, the cost will be in the neighbourhood of £20 million.

Is this an election speech?

There is no election coming.

These are just facts.

Is the Deputy afraid?

I think it is an election speech.

Deputy Clinton may be sure that the Dáil will run its full term and nobody will be more happy about that than the Deputy.

Hear, hear.

These are our big problems so far as housing is concerned. I have always been anxious to see our people housed. I feel that houses are more essential than hospitals. A family starting in a good home have a good chance. In hovels they get colds and the wife and children become delicate. Taking the long view, this costs the State more as years go on. The wife and the children are ill. These are the real problems we are up against.

The Minister's predecessor did his very best during his time. In his absence I can say that about him. I am very pleased with the Minister's outlook on housing. I hope he will ascertain if there is any way in which we could expedite the building of houses in County Dublin. This would help us on all sides of the House who are members of the same authority, and it would help the people who are badly in need of housing. I could not speak too strongly about the great advances we have made since we first got a native Government 50 years ago. Great strides have been made in housing and reconstruction. Money is not holding us up but, for some reason, we do not seem to get on as quickly as we would like. We have housing schemes in Balbriggan, and in Clondalkin and Lucan. I will not go into them all in detail.

The dead hand was on them for too long.

You would be ashamed to talk about housing in those areas to those people.

We will have to change the Government.

They say: "You told me that story three or four years ago." I hope the Minister will see to it that this problem is solved. I am not making any personal charges against the managers or others who are not here to defend themselves. The present manager has held that office for only a very short time. Others seemed to do their very best. We are told that they are short of technical staff. I could say more on the housing issue but I do not want to delay the House.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 15th June, 1971.
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