Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 24 Jun 1971

Vol. 254 No. 14

Committee on Finance. - Vote 26: Local Government (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
Go ndeonófar suim nach mó ná £13,762,000 chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú de Mhárta, 1972, le haghaidh tuarastail agus costais Oifig an Aire Rialtais Áitiúil, a chuimsíonn deontais do na húdaráis áitiúla, deontais agus costais eile i dtaca le tithíocht, agus scéimeanna agus deontais ilghnéitheacha, lena náirítear deontais-i-gcabhair.
—(Minister for Local Government.)

The greatest cause of dissatisfaction among local authority tenants is the question of differential rents. This system is not being operated either fairly, equitably or with justice to the tenants. As I explained already—I hope the Minister has since obtained some information on the matter—there is a valid reason for this dissatisfaction. These tenants are deprived of the right to transfer or inter-transfer because in such event they are then put on a new scale of differential rent. If a member of a family succeeds to the tenancy of a house he is deprived of the rights that were granted to his parents by Dublin Corporation despite the fact that he may have lived in the house for many years. There are many such cases on the books of Dublin Corporation.

The assessment of rent on gross income under the differential rents scheme is also a source of grievance in so far as it constitutes double taxation on these people who have already had to pay tax on their incomes. Some of these grievances would be removed if the Minister would institute an investigation for the purpose of ascertaining how the differential rents scheme would be modified so as to grant to tenants their basic rights. There should be no victimisation in the case of transfer or inter-transfer and rents should be assessed on net income.

These, then, are the major grievances of the tenants. The Minister must be aware of the number of people who are being victimised under present regulations. The valuing of these houses has gone completely out of hand and is unrealistic. The Government talk about spiralling costs and inflated house prices which are not justified while they themselves are condoning the present system whereby Dublin Corporation are inflating house prices beyond the means of the tenants who have been in occupation of the houses for a long time. I know of cases where independent valuers have valued houses at prices much lower than the value put on them by Dublin Corporation valuers. This, too, is a source of grievance to tenants who are contemplating buying the houses. Some of these houses do not contain the basic amenities—many of them have no bathroom—but yet tenants who wish to purchase them are asked for prices as high as £2,300 and £2,400. I ask the Minister to consider seriously these matters in an effort to have them rectified and, consequently, to have some content among the tenants. The discontent is building up to such an extent that the Minister, by his inaction, may be inviting trouble with which he may not be able to cope.

I turn now to the question of the local authority housing programme. I have heard the Minister and the Taoiseach say that the programme for housing as projected in the White Paper, Housing in the Seventies, was not only reached but was exceeded. However, if we consider the figures we will realise that local authority housing has not kept pace with the demand. Therefore, it is a blatant lie to say that housing has exceeded the target set. One can talk about private houses in the £5,000 to £10,000 range but are we solving the social need for the provision of shelters for persons who are not able to provide houses for themselves out of their own means? I have looked at the list of projects in hand by the local authority in Dublin. I have no hesitation in saying that it does not even attempt to cope with the enormous problem that exists. By not giving full figures, by concealing the real figures by not including on the list persons who have no children, Dublin Corporation are hiding the fact that there is a housing crisis.

I do not know if you have heard of Hollyfield Buildings, Mount Pleasant Buildings, Benburb Street Buildings, Corporation Place and other such areas. I would compare them with the hovels that one might see in underdeveloped countries. Public toilets only are provided for these tenants of Dublin Corporation. Amenities are not provided. In some cases electricity is not provided. I do not think that the tenants of these buildings have been considered in the housing programme. These people are treated as worse than second class citizens in being asked to live in these hovels. A debtors' prison has been created out of Hollyfield and Benburb Street Buildings, where people who go into arrears of rent are forced to live. I have seen a case where a family of ten are sleeping in one room with a tiny kitchen attached. They fell into arrears of rent through no fault of their own. This is the way in which the housing authority deal with social problems.

Public representatives have a right to full details from the housing authority. We are deprived of full details in Dublin city. We are not given the facts regarding the housing problem. We are given the regular stereotyped reply that there are worse cases on the list. This is not good enough. In the booklet "A House of your Own" the Minister mentions that there is a queue. There is no one on the Dublin Corporation housing list who can say that he is in a queue because he does not know his place on the list. This is the greatest cause of discontent and was perhaps the cause of many cases of squatting. People felt that there was not a just and equitable system in the allocation of dwellings because no one could give them accurate information as to their place on the list. I have found that these people would be more than patient if they could be given any indication of their chance of being housed. They were told to put down their names for one area and then they were told that they must move to another area. Because the system is wrong the people can be given no idea of when they may be housed. If there were a points system in operation in Dublin such as works very satisfactorily elsewhere, people could be given accurate information as to when they would be offered accommodation.

It is shameful that one has to say to people who have one child that there is no hope whatever of their being housed. A husband and wife with one child can now be told that there is no hope of their getting accommodation from Dublin Corporation. This has been the position for over a year. They can be granted no form of accommodation no matter what their living conditions may be. It is a sad state of affairs that priority should be given to office blocks and luxury flats. A husband and wife with one child will not be accepted for furnished dwellings. We may be a Catholic country but unfortunately we are not a Christian country. Dublin Corporation is not attempting to solve the problem. I defy the Minister to contradict me on this, that a husband and wife with one child have no hope of being granted accommodation. In the case of a husband and wife who through no fault of their own cannot have a family they will not even be permitted to go on the Dublin Corporation list. We should be aware of these facts and face up to them. These people will be denied local authority accommodation forever. It is a terrible state of affairs when one sees a case such as I visited two nights ago, of a husband and wife and daughter of 12 living in a small room which served as bedroom and kitchen and having to tell them that there is no hope of their getting accommodation. It may be asked why they themselves cannot do something about this. A man earning £20 a week has very little chance of saving the deposit required for a house if he has a wife and child and is paying £7 a week for one furnished room. He could not hope to get a room cheaper than that at the present time. One could only tell him that he would have to continue as he was and hope that his wife would have another baby so that he would be considered—considered only—for housing by the local authority. This is the situation when Ministers talk about the programme and how they coped with the problem. So far as local authority housing is concerned they are far from coping with it.

A survey carried out a few years ago showed there were 59,000 families in need of rehousing due to overcrowding and related problems and a further 9,000 houses needed annually because of demolition, increase in households, migrations, et cetera. We must also take into account the fact that 60 per cent of the houses are over 50 years old and in many cases need replacement. This gives one some idea of the housing needs. At the present rate of building I cannot see the problem which was shown to exist three years ago being solved in another ten years. It must be borne in mind that the problem is increasing. Even if we increase the pace of the programme the existing problem would not be solved for 15 years.

The Taoiseach has boasted that the targets of the White Paper have been met and exceeded. According to a survey covering the four year period, 1963-1967, we have had the lowest output of houses per thousand inhabitants and as a percentage of our gross national product we have spent less on housing than any other European country with the exception of Spain. We have the second lowest stock of housing per thousand of inhabitants. Another point worth noting is that for every 100 new houses we lose 47 houses. It is an idle boast for the Taoiseach and his Ministers to say we are coping with the problem. The situation is deteriorating rapidly and the Government are hiding the facts.

The Minister for Local Government has set a precedent in this House in that he will not accept responsibility. We must not forget that we have not got a corporation in Dublin, we have not a city council, and we have no means of getting information we require. The Minister for Local Government has set a precedent in that he will not give the information to the Dáil. Time and again I have tabled questions only to be told that it is not the Minister's responsibility. I do not agree with this. The Minister knows that he cannot give the true figures and he has decided the best way out is to say it is not his responsibility. We should deplore this and we should tell the Minister he is not entitled to decide it is not his responsibility. He appointed the city commissioner and he knows what is happening. Every housing project must be sanctioned by his Department and the Minister is fully aware of the situation. He should be forced to give us the information we request.

It has been said that if more money is provided for housing it sets off an inflationary spiral in housing costs. That has happened here but it is noteworthy that it has not happened in Northern Ireland. The authorities there have been able to initiate a housing programme that is ahead of anything we have done and we must give them credit. The Government are mishandling the housing situation. They have not taken any action with regard to land speculation—a subject on which we have spoken at length. Their only answer is that this would involve constitutional changes and they are afraid to tackle this problem. Where a social evil exists the constitutional problem should be tackled without any fuss or qualms. People are entitled to their rights and any Article in the Constitution that deprives people of a right or permits a social evil to exist should be changed.

In a motion put down by the Labour Party in regard to housing we asked the Minister to freeze the price of land required for housing but the Minister said it was not possible to do this. The authorities in Northern Ireland have been able to do this and in the new town of Craigavon the price of land is £275 per acre. In this way the authorities in Northern Ireland were able to stop land speculation. However, we allow land speculation to continue. Exorbitant prices are paid for land; the speculators are getting off scot-free and, it appears to me, with the blessing of the Government. I would nearly go so far as to say that Government members are conniving with land speculators.

The Government deplore the price of housing and say they must do something about it. However, they imposed a 15 per cent wholesale and turnover tax on building materials and by this measure they have contributed substantially towards increasing costs. The Government regulations have slowed down the flow of finance for house-building. The regulations are so cumbersome that there is not a regular flow of finance for housing and even builders constructing private houses are forced to borrow at exorbitant rates. This further increases the price of houses.

It is difficult to accept the pious plea of the Government to all concerned to keep prices down when we consider the rise of 400 per cent in the Dublin Corporation betterment levy and the ESB demand of £100 from those builders who will not install electric central heating. These are measures that have been approved indirectly by the Government and they are major factors in the rising cost of housing.

The Minister and the Taoiseach have mentioned rising labour costs. This is a myth because it has been proved that the number of hours spent on the building of a house is less than half what was spent in 1957-58. That is proof that what the Minister is saying is wrong. The reasons for the increased price of houses are land speculation, the wholesale and turnover tax imposed by the Government, the rise of 400 per cent in the Dublin Corporation betterment levy and the £100 demanded by the ESB from those who do not install electric central heating.

There has been talk about the local authority in Dublin building up a land bank. I can tell the House that they are endeavouring to sell off some of their land to speculators and supermarket groups. It has happened in Ballyfermot. We must remember that we have no control over Dublin Corporation. They can act as they like, the decision is made, there is no city council, there is only a commissioner appointed by the Minister. Obviously the Minister is dictating to them what to do. Here we see the hypocrisy of Government pleas and exhortations to housing authorities to build up a land bank while they are approving and perhaps telling authorities to dispose of land to supermarket groups and so on. This proves that the Government are not concerned about our housing problem.

I was interested to read last October where Canon Kerr in an address to the Diocesan Synods of Dublin, Glendalough and Kildare, spoke about the housing problem in Dublin. Obviously he was very much aware of the problem. He called for a reactivation of the public conscience. He spoke about the grossly inadequate housing problem and he said that the number of families living in one room was such as to be a reflection on us. He said we appeared to be unconcerned about this problem. He contrasted the miserable housing of so many Dublin families with the proud development of luxury hotels, supermarkets and vast office blocks.

The Minister says we provide as much as we can with the money we have. I am wondering who provides the finance for the office blocks, the supermarkets and the luxury hotels. The money comes from the commercial banks. Are the Government serious when they say they cannot get the money when money can be provided for these other projects, projects which are not of such importance in the light of the social problems that are so prevalent? We look at these edifices and we forget that around the corner there are people living in hovels. Just 50 yards from O'Connell Street, in Corporation Place, four minutes walk from O'Connell Street, there are sights that make one cringe with horror. It is futile to talk of people living in substandard dwellings. The term "substandard dwellings" means nothing until one has actually seen these dwellings for oneself and the conditions in which the unfortunate inhabitants of these dwellings are trying to survive. Everyone should see these conditions for himself because no one can get a proper picture unless he actually sees things for himself.

Take Benburb Street. I had a priest who was concerned about the problems there and he wanted to go and live in one of the rooms there. I saw the assistant city manager and asked him if this priest could have a room in Benburb Street and I was told "No". Surely no one should begrudge anyone a room in these hovels. Surely no one would envy this priest in his particular mission. He wanted to live with the people and to know their problems. It is a shocking indictment on us that we turn a blind eye to these problems. Our priorities are wrong. Things are topsyturvy. We are going the wrong way about things. Fortunately people are now beginning to ask questions. Perhaps the mass media of communication is helping. People ask why they cannot have a proper roof over their heads. To condemn people to live in these hovels is morally wrong. The officials are hardened. They regard the people as just numbers. We have a computer way of thinking. We forget that humanity is involved.

The Taoiseach indicated in 1969 that he was contemplating setting up a Department of Housing. This is something of which this House would approve. The ramifications of local government are so widespread that it is impossible to give special attention to housing. I am talking about the situation in Dublin. I have visited all these substandard dwellings. What I say about Dublin is probably true of other parts of the country; the situation is probably equally bad. A Department of Housing could tackle the problem and plan a proper housing programme, a programme designed to improve the situation and ensure that all our citizens have proper dwellings in which to live.

We hear the Minister constantly talking about rationalising building schemes so that we can produce lower-cost houses. This is hypocritical because I do not think he has any intention whatsoever of rationalising. He talks about system-built flats. I believe they cost as much as, if not more than, traditional building. I should like the Minister to prove to us how these flats are better and cheaper. They are certainly not better. I was in some flats in Inchicore last Saturday. They are scarcely a year old, but the rain is coming in and the walls are damp. The wallpaper being destroyed. I have sent the details to the city manager. It is not right to allow that sort of thing to happen. The tenants are paying very high rents. The lift has been out of action for ten weeks and the people and children have to climb eight flights of stairs. If we were asked to climb eight flights of stairs we would be breathless at the end of it. The people have been told that the parts have to come from Germany. This is just not good enough. Those who install these lifts should be compelled to carry the essential spare parts for them. There should be no question of waiting for these to come from Germany.

These people's requirements are few and they do not complain unnecessarily. They have had no heating since the 1st June. We all know what the weather has been like in the last few weeks. Last Saturday the flats were really cold. Some of the tenants have resorted to paraffin stoves and one can scarcely breathe because of the fumes. Heating should be provided when the weather is cold and inclement. The tenants are paying for heating. We build these flats and we think everything is great and that the tenants should not complain but if an ESB fuse blows on Friday night or Saturday morning they are in darkness for the whole weekend because the corporation has the box locked and you cannot get a corporation official and the ESB cannot get in. Tenants are not complaining too much in asking that these matters be put right. If the central heating goes off in mid-winter when there is snow and ice—it invariably happens on a Saturday or a Friday night—nobody comes to restore it until Monday.

These are some of the things that arise in these system-built houses where every amenity is supposed to be provided. On paper everything is fine but the hard fact is that people have these problems. These new flats that are damp are not ideal. I am opposed to flats. I do not think that children brought up in a flats environment behave properly afterwards and they are handicapped in later life. Anybody who has grown up in flats will not want to bring up his children in flats. No facilities for children are provided with these high rise flats. In the case of the Ballymun flats which are 14 or 15 storeys high there is not even a public toilet for the children at ground level. Mothers cannot keep children cooped up; they must be allowed down but there are no amenities. If we have to build high rise flats we should ensure that there are proper amenities with them and take into account that the tenants will be rearing children in them. That was not done and it is a great reflection on us that we cannot have planners in the Departments or in the National Building Agency, which was responsible for this development, who will consider the type of people who will occupy these flats and what amenities should be provided.

What I have described may seem like small grievances but they are very real. We all have house problems but we would not like to find, when the main fuse blows, that nobody is available to remedy it. It is irritating and frustrating to be without electricity for a whole weekend. Perhaps these luxury dwellings are very nice inside but when you find dampness destroying the decor it is not very good. There should be an inquiry into this. In the case of the Bluebell scheme of flats in my constituency I think the builder should have been brought before the courts. The corporation has spent a fantastic amount trying to rectify dampness. In one case of a four-roomed flat they moved the occupants into one room while the other rooms were put out of commission. The water was flowing down the walls even though they tried everything to remedy it. They finally got on to the city manager and now I think they have decided to take off the whole roof in order to solve the problem. This is the sort of building that is going on. If this is allowed to happen I wonder if money is being misspent or wasted. You must see this to realise what happens.

Since Bernard Curtis House was built it has been a disgrace but the builder was not taken to task. I wonder why, considering that this is one of the worst buildings I have seen. If we admitted to these tenants that they had got a raw deal and said that they would be provided with proper accommodation we might get some progress. These people do not want much; they are easily satisfied but at present they are paying rent for flats that are not proper living accommodation. That is what is happening in Bluebell. There is also dampness in parts of the Inchicore flats, in St. Michael's estate and if that is the case now within a year of these flats being built, what will be the position in a few years time?

There is something wrong with system built flats. This matter should be investigated; perhaps the builders are cutting down on something. If we have these problems the flats may not be so cheap. I tried to estimate the cost in the early hours of this morning of the Ballymun flats because the Minister has refused to give the information. I should like to know the exact cost of them and compare it with the cost of traditionally built flats. Certainly, it appears they should be built cheaper but, in fact, that is not happening. I should like to know how much rent is obtained from Ballymun in a year, what subsidy exactly is necessary and how it is arrived at, the cost of it, the interest rate and the total interest payable. If one were able to produce these figures to the people they might be a little more amenable to paying high rents. Instead, we are just telling them that it is costing the Government a fortune. We are not spelling it out and this is wrong. Details in respect of four-bedroom, three-bedroom, two-bedroom and one-bedroom flats would be very helpful. It might help us to see how the Minister can justify the high rent the corporation charges these tenants.

I should like to know how he arrives at a figure of 25s a week for central heating, how and why this is subsidised. I know private houses can have central heating cheaper and have it all year round. Time and again it is said that people have no means of controlling the heat in their flats. Was it an economy to provide a central heating system which did not enable tenants to control the heat as required?

I lived in America for years and in every apartment in which I lived it was possible to control the heat. If we had incurred the initial expense of providing a controllable system in these flats would the cost now be reduced? Dublin Corporation's answer to me is; "Let them open the windows." This is waste of heat which could, perhaps, have been prevented if control had been provided originally. I should like to know the cost per flat of providing central heating. We should be given these figures but the Minister constantly says it is not possible to give them. It should have been possible to work out the cost per flat originally. No doubt Deputy Foley is concerned about some of the problems he meets in the Ballymun flats.

If the Department increased the number of technical personnel by offering better salaries and conditions this would help to speed up the housing programme. The Minister has promised every support for co-operatives but would he consider setting up a national building co-operative movement for the building of houses? When people apply for sites they get sites all right but the city manager has admitted he makes a little profit on the sale of sites. An article on whether our houses are too dear in the Sunday Press of 18th October, 1970, stated:

...the Corporation did not sell the land at a loss. Neither did the original owners, the Irish Christian Brothers. We repeatedly asked the Corporation to break down the land price of a site but the City Manager, Mr. Macken, just as often refused. We reckon that, as an employee of the State, he has no right to do that.

Mr. Macken's attitude is no different from that of his officials. They tell people they have no right to any information and this is the sort of bureaucracy we have in Dublin city. If proper assistance and co-operation were given instead of pious platitudes and vague promises people would get interested in building their own houses and setting up co-operatives.

I was brought up with the idea that building societies were established to help people provide their own houses but I have had a rude awakening since I began studying the problem. I do not accept what the Minister has said, that the money is provided solely for private housing. I can cite cases where building societies lend money for commercial development properties and hotels because they can get a higher interest rate but this is not the purpose for which building societies were set up. If they are contravening the rules there should be an inquiry. When we hear of a building society which has a permanent chairman and permanent directors there should be an inquiry into that society.

One building society included a new rule in its articles of association—it went unnoticed by the Registrar of Friendly Societies—which states that the society can dismiss any member without reason and without giving an explanation. That means if a person becomes a shareholder in that society —and it must be remembered that borrowers are only one-fifth shareholders, they are not real shareholders—and wants to apply to become a director, as every shareholder should have the right to do, he must apply to become a director of this building society, the Irish Permanent, before 31st December for the AGM held on 31st March. If a person applies to become a director in December this building society can operate the rules against that person and have him thrown out of the society before he comes up for election.

I wonder if the Registrar of Friendly Societies has gone to sleep. That rule is unconstitutional and can be challenged in the courts. I do not think people with their sons, brothers and in-laws should be allowed to control these building societies which were established to help people and not for the profit making which is going on. Some are operating quite legitimately. There is no doubt about this but there are some who are not. It is wrong for an auctioneer to have a building society because the temptation is there for the auctioneer to use the funds of the building society for opportunities in building, land speculation, houses or commercial development. It is all very well to say loans are given but there should be more public accountability of these building societies. I thought further money was to be given for housing but I now know that it is not in many cases. I have been told in reply to questions I have put down that building societies generally conform to the rules but that is not good enough.

This inquiry into the building societies has been going on for a very long time. In April, 1969 I brought up the question of the increase in the interest rates. A person may get the cheque for his house today but it may be back-dated two months and yet he has to pay interest for those two months. This is not right but it is happening. This is a shady business which should not be tolerated. An inquiry was set up and the responsibility for approval of increases was transferred then from the Department of Industry and Commerce to the Department of Local Government. The inquiry is still on to my knowledge. I wonder when we will hear the result of it. I wonder are these inquiries set up just to fob us off. We should have an inquiry into it because if this sort of thing is going on something should be done about it. They are able to advertise. I quite accept normal advertising. I think they should attract money but I should like to see the money being used properly for the purposes for which the building societies were set up. Perhaps the Minister could extend the inquiry to include questions like the misuse of money, the allocation of money for purposes other than housing, the question of rules of the society, the question of the directors and chairman and the question of vacancies on the board. These vacancies exist and when somebody asks if they could be co-opted they are told: "No, I have four other sons. They must get on." This is not right. No one has the right to control or own a building society like this. It belongs to the members. The vote by proxy and people being told to vote for so-and-so is wrong. It is operated wrongly. The sooner we have a public inquiry into it the better because I do not think people should control a society like this, set up their own rules, tell people to shut up and sit down when they ask questions at annual general meetings. Unless we expose this we will see it get worse and worse. If you do not believe me buy a share and attend the annual general meeting of the Irish Permanent Building Society. It has a permanent chairman et cetera. That is what is permanent about it and it will be permanent as long as they are allowed to operate as they are doing. I hear the annual general meeting is a comedy.

I should like to know what insurance companies are providing loans for houses. To my knowledge it is only foreign insurance companies. If they are not I wonder why our Irish insurance companies are not providing house loans. It galls me to see them building office blocks. There is a nice development around the corner in St. Stephen's Green by an Irish insurance company. Why can this money not be invested in housing? Investment in housing is a long term investment but so is office block investment. Why can they not be compelled to provide a proportion even of their money for housing? Perhaps the Minister would answer this question. I brought it up before and he evaded it, whether deliberately or not I do not know. We do not often get an opportunity to discuss housing and when we do we should be given proper answers.

The traffic problem in Dublin city is a headache for many people, including the Department of Local Government. We see it getting worse and we wonder if we have looked at it properly. I do not know that we were right in passing over power to Dublin Corporation again. I think we made a big blunder. We had a Garda superintendent in Dublin Castle who was coping with the problem very masterfully and very competently but he was being harassed and frustrated in all his attempts to alleviate the problem. Nearly four years ago he suggested that traffic lights should be provided all along the quays. This has not been done. That is one instance. He asked for many other things and nothing was done. They said they had gone as far as possible and that it was now up to the Government to decide about building proper roads and bridges. Instead the whole problem has now been passed over to a bureaucratic department who have decided that they are above the law. They have taken over the powers of the police and this is very dangerous. I do not think any director of traffic should have the powers of the police. It is wrong. I shall give an example which involved the life of a baby.

There is a health authority dispensary in Lord Edward Street, Dublin, perhaps the only central city dispensary. The dispensary doctor attends there each morning. He needs his car there because he must be available to go out immediately he is called. Every time he parked his car there he was fined £2. I approached the corporation on his behalf several times. He got in a case of a baby who was blue. He had to take the baby to the hospital immediately. Seconds counted. He had to run up Lord Edward Street to his car in High Street with the baby in his arms. When it reached the hospital it died. If it had been three minutes earlier its life would have been saved.

One must think of how these things affect people. I approached the city manager and explained the case to him. He said he saw the reason for it and would arrange an appointment for the doctor with the traffic director. The doctor met him and he was abused by the traffic director. He was asked how dare he ask for this concession. This was not a concession, it was a right because as a dispensary doctor he had to go at any second to deal with emergencies. He was abused by the traffic director. This is what happens in Dublin Corporation when officials are given powers like this. They are above the law. They have more power than the Minister and there is no check on it. The attitude now is: "If you do not fall in line we will put you in your place." It is very dangerous to allow people like this to be above the law and to have powers in excess of the police. There is no flexibility about their regulations. A French tourist's car parked, inadvertently, perhaps, in a no parking area, was hauled off immediately. It was parked in a no parking area but it was not an actual obstruction. This car was hauled off because the traffic director, who is the big dictator, says there is no flexibility. Laws and regulations must have a certain amount of flexibility. We must not turn our tourists away. This can do us untold harm. One man, a big dictator, can say he does not care who they are. He is given this power by the Department of Local Government. I am very disturbed that this should happen. I do not think we have the right to give a man these powers. Look at the mess that was made of the scheme in relation to the road from Howth into Dublin. This was the greatest fiasco of all times. Anyone with common sense could have known that it would be a fiasco. It was an immature, puerile attempt at solving a traffic problem in Dublin city to have one lane operating for buses only.

This man and his colleagues have their own parking lot. A special place is set aside for them, and dare anyone come into it. There is a big notice saying, "No Entry". They have this privilege and they can sit back and dictate to the people: "You must not do this and you must not do that." I had a look at the special parking lot for these dictators who tell the people who provide so much money by way of taxation what to do. The people of Dublin city are not being given the parking facilities to which they are entitled. Private individuals and companies can now fleece them with parking fees.

I brought to the attention of the city manager that Dublin Corporation had handed over a piece of land near Christ Church Place and Winetavern Street which they did not own to the Private Motorists' Protection Association. They are not trying to provide parking facilities. They are trying to make it more and more difficult for motorists. They say that the best place for a car is at home. If everyone left his car at home revenue would drop and they might discover that they had killed the goose that lays the golden eggs. Their policy is wrong. They are certainly not helping motorists. We have not got the subways and tubes which they have in Britain. The buses are not providing the service. Until the Department produce the proper roads and the proper bridges they have no right to operate a dictatorial policy. Something will have to be done about this and, for that reason alone, the sooner the council is reconstituted the better. I hope it will not be a rubber stamp council. If we were over there we would make sure that the city manager would not have the almighty powers he has at the moment. The last council was a rubber stamp council. As public representatives we would like to see democracy in action.

The Inchicore Road is very dangerous. There have been very bad accidents there. What seems to be forgotten is that it is a main road into Dublin. It passes by Kilmainham Jail. The camber is wrong. I live on this road and my children can never cross it. It is the most dangerous road I have ever seen. It is a narrow road with three bends. There was a very bad accident just at my own gate in which a priest and his mother were seriously injured. Their car was crushed against the wall of my house. Since 1964 I have been writing and asking questions about it but nothing has been done yet. I have seen huge rocks falling off trucks which use that road. It is hard to imagine how bad it is. The Irish Independent ran a story and photographs showing how bad it is but still no action was taken by the Department.

About two years ago Deputy Murphy asked the Minister was this not the main road into Dublin from Cork and he was told that it was. He then asked was it not one of the worst roads in the country and the Minister said it was. Still nothing was done about it. Dublin Corporation put a white line there but the road is too narrow for cars to pass. The white line is now gone, anyway. A "go-slow" sign was erected but it was so obscured that no one could see it. It is terrible to think that nothing will be done about it until somebody is killed. Then there will be an outcry and all of a sudden the Department will do something about it. I understand that plans have been submitted to the Department. The last reply I had from the Minister was that no plans had been submitted. I asked for a pedestrian crossing to be provided there but that would not be done either. How long more must we wait until this stretch of road is improved? If the Minister could do something about this he would be doing a worthwhile job.

I should like to deal briefly with the problem of planning, development and conservation. These matters were very much to the fore during 1970, Conservation Year. While the publicity given to these matters during 1970 helped to awaken the conscience of many people to the problems of development and conservation, this drive should not cease now. Every year should be conservation year and a more active interest should be taken in these matters. Conservation and development are two very conflicting forces. We must have both. It is a matter for the planners and the local authorities who are charged with the enforcement of planning regulations to ensure that we get the optimum benefits from both.

Conservation means more than the preservation of what we have, the landscapes and seascapes and all the other things which go to make a better life for our people and a better country for tourists. Not only must the existing amenities be preserved, but we must also try to improve them and also to create new amenities, thereby ensuring that not only will our country not be spoiled but that it will be improved, in every way possible. On the other hand, with our increasing population and increasing economic and industrial development, there will be some conflict with conservation policies and practices. It is up to us to ensure that any development we undertake is planned development. We must ensure that factories will be planned in such a way as to cause the least possible damage to our environment and to our amenities and to everything else that adds to the enjoyment of our countryside.

It is difficult to maintain a balance between conservation and development. Many people have argued that new conservation legislation should be introduced. We have been unfortunate in the sense that the industrial revolution of the last century passed us by — we were an underdeveloped country — but, on the other hand, we might be regarded as having been fortunate in that the spoliation which occurred in other countries did not happen here.

The Planning Act of 1963 gave much power to local authorities in relation to planning and to conservation. Any local authority which use the provisions of that Act will find they have sufficient power to do almost all of the things, conservationwise and developmentwise, that they wish to do.

Conservation and planning under the county development and other plans are the responsibility of the local authorities because it is the local authorities who are the statutory bodies for the administration of development and planning regulations. These plans are currently under review. When the county development and other development plans were formulated three or four years ago some of them were based on a five-year period. Many local authorities produced excellent development plans but others produced plans that were not so good. Some of them did not conform to what the people generally and the Government would like to see done. However, we cannot fault the local authorities for this because some of them did not have available to them the necessary facilities and staff. Also, at the time, planning was quite new. Many of the development plans contain provisions which I am sure the elected members of local authorities would like to see changed. This should be done now and, therefore, we have advised the local authorities to revise their plans. Since the plans were adopted special studies have been carried out and the results of these will be a guideline to local authorities when, at the end of the five-year period, the new development plans for the different areas are being produced. In addition to the results of these studies being available, local authorities will also have the benefit of the new thinking and of the many booklets that have been published on these matters. There is also, of course, the experience of the members of the local authorities in regard to the operation in their own areas of their own particular plans. Therefore, at the end of the five-year period we should have revised plans which will be an improvement on the original ones and which will be more acceptable to the public.

While it is our duty in planning to ensure that the objects and aims of proper planning and conservation are reached, we must remember that we are planning for people — for the people of today and for the citizens of tomorrow. In order to get acquiescence we must plan in so far as possible in line with the wishes of the people. In this way, the plans should not warrant undue criticism or annoyance. The basic aim should be to develop a system which will be seen to be fair and practical, a system that will take account also of the human problems arising from the planning control system. This should be the guiding force for local authorities when they get down to revising the county, urban and other development plans. I have here an excellent document, copies of which were sent on 15th January from the Department to the planning authorities.

Is it available to Members of the House?

Yes. We will see to it that any Deputy who is interested will get a copy. It is available. The reason I mentioned it and intend to put on the record extracts from it is that it is an excellent document and a guide to the local authorities in the revision of their county development plans.

Paragraph 2 says:

In revising their plans planning authorities will have the benefit of the various regional and other planning studies which have been completed (See Appendix).

As I referred to previously, a number of studies have been made and these studies will be of great assistance to the local authorities. There is the Traffic Planning for Smaller Towns, published or commissioned by An Foras Forbartha; Planning for Tourism, published in 1966; Urban Redevelopment, New Ross, published in 1966; Killarney Valley Survey — the same; Regional Studies in Ireland; Regional Development in Ireland; A Renewal Programme for the City of Waterford; Galway City Plan and Planning for a special coastline survey being carried out, a survey on water pollution, Amenity Recreation and Tourism. Then there are other studies. There is special amenity study on Brittas, and so on. These things are available to local authorities. The advisory reports commissioned by An Foras Forbartha on the Gaeltacht and on roadside development, traffic survey, traffic and safety of arterial roads, will be published in the near future, and the coastline study which I mentioned.

The work being done under the regional organisations in the preparation of these reports should also be of value to planning authorities and it is hoped that decisions taken following the receipt and analysis of these reports will be available in sufficient time to give guidance to them.

The Department's administrative and planning staffs will be available for consultation in connection with the review of development plans. If it appears necessary, arrangements for local visits by planning inspectors will be made provided the pressure of appeals work can be reduced. Assistance will also be available from An Foras Forbartha. An Foras will be co-operating with the Department in organising conferences and seminars dealing with the particular aspects of development plans. The first of these, the working conference on the surveys, was held last November.

I will read the third paragraph because I regard it as very important:

But the responsibility for producing effective plans will rest with the planning authority. It is for their areas the plan is being reviewed and it will be for them to draw the practical lessons from their experience to date in the operation of existing plans and/or planning control to ensure a realistic plan emerges which while based on sound planning principles and such relevant facts as are available, will be acceptable to the public by reason of its practicality and fairness. This is not to denigrate the value of the plans already made but to stress the need to build experience to date into the review. Indeed, the Minister takes the opportunity to express his appreciation of the manner in which the local authorities launched what was in effect for many of them a new service. In particular, he wishes to record his appreciation of the manner in which the local authority staffs built up their knowledge and expertise in planning and developed from limited resources quite an effective comprehensive planning apparatus. However, the system has not been without its critics and if planning does not sell itself on its merits to the public its whole standing can be undermined. It is essential, therefore, that the public should see that the system is not only built on sound professional principles but also takes account of the practical human problems arising from the operation of a controlled mechanism capable of affecting the property and the aspirations of every individual.

This, I think, is important and I know that local authorities when they come to revise their plans will have regard to the advice and the suggestions made there.

Another important point about the local development plans is that it is for the elected representatives to sanction the plans and I find and every Deputy here and every member of a local authority finds that it is impossible or at least it is very difficult, when a draft plan is produced for a local authority, for elected members of the local authority to delve into a voluminous plan and to familiarise themselves with all the provisions of it but I think it is necessary to do this. In other words, if the elected representatives do not do this they cannot very well grumble when the plan has been adopted, a plan with many of the provisions of which they may quarrel.

This is a very lengthy document. It gives the Department's and the Minister's views on development along arterial roads, that is, ribbon development, pollution, and so on.

May I ask whether the Parliamentary Secretary would read to us the section on pollution? It might be of interest to the House.

It comes under a number of headings, like sewage disposal, amenity areas. I will send the Deputy a copy of this.

Could the Parliamentary Secretary send a copy to all Deputies? We would all be interested.

Yes. Of course, Deputies who are members of local authorities will, I presume, already have got a copy of it.

That is not very helpful to Dublin, unfortunately, at the moment, for the reason the Parliamentary Secretary knows.

Many people helped Dublin Corporation out of existence, did they not? I would hope that when the new development plans are produced by the various local authorities they will be first of all generally acceptable to the people, but here again if prohibitions are to be imposed and if conservation and development are to go ahead, there must be regulations. In regard to regulations it is impossible to please all the people all the time and I do not think anyone would try to do this.

As the Minister announced, the 1963 Planning Act will be amended by the 1969 Planning Bill. In the light of the operation of the planning legislation we find it is possible and desirable to improve the legislation. The Minister proposes to bring in a new Bill and to abolish the procedure of appeals to the Minister. Dealing with planning appeals is a heavy job. More than 2,500 appeals are received annually in the Department—this forms about one-tenth of the planning applications received throughout the country. We should and must improve the procedures. There have been delays and in the new legislation we will try to shorten the period between the time of application and when the applicant gets permission to carry out the development work.

Most Deputies are familiar with what happens. A person makes application to the local authority. There is provision in the Act that statutory notice of four weeks must be given. He cannot get planning permission before this and unless there is some query in regard to the matter the applicant must get permission before the expiration of two months. If he is granted planning permission a third party may appeal to the Minister and he can also request an oral hearing. The oral hearing and the appeal can take quite a while. I would envisage that in the new legislation there should be some method of reducing that delay.

Under the new legislation would the Minister be the final court of appeal?

No. It is envisaged in the new legislation that a board would take the place of the Minister.

That would be a welcome change.

Certainly it would be a welcome change to the Minister because getting through 2,500 planning appeals yearly is no joke, as well as having to listen to all kinds of accusations. In the past year I have dealt with about 1,300 planning appeals and there have been few criticisms of the decisions taken. In general, whether it is a board, a Minister or a Parliamentary Secretary who deals with the matter, each will try to do his best.

In dealing with planning applications the local fire authorities give their advice; in other words, when an application is made for planning permission the local authority fire officer is asked to advise on the fire prevention provisions and on whether a proposed building constitutes a fire hazard. Generally these officials do a fine job. In most new buildings there is adequate provision for fire prevention by way of fire escapes and the fire-proofing of ground floor and second floor ceilings. Even though the fire authority may have ensured that an hotel has all the proper fire safety measures, it sometimes happens that there is no indication in the hotel regarding the location of the fire escapes or the fire hoses. This matter should be rectified because it is necessary that the public should know the location of fire escapes and fire hoses. They should be informed on this matter by way of notice in the hotel or by some other means.

There has been a considerable amount of unauthorised development, namely, development without planning permission. This happens in the case of conversion of houses to flats, discotheques and other such places. In many cases the premises are old buildings which are converted into flats without permission or supervision by the fire authorities. It is quite possible that the old wiring remains and this constitutes a fire hazard. This kind of development is occurring in the cities and in the larger towns. There have been a number of fires in flats and I urge local authorities to ensure that where there has been unauthorised development the problems created by this development will be dealt with.

Another matter that must be considered is how much development will be allowed. This is a problem occupying the minds of various bodies. We must, I think, allow a certain amount of development in areas which are now designated non-development areas. With the operation of the five-day week, the 4½ day week, and so on, the demand for the unspoilt rural areas will become more intensive. The cities of Western Europe are very polluted and the tendency will be to try to get away from these polluted areas to undeveloped areas. I attended a planning conference in Bonn last year and a suggestion was made there that, instead of bringing more workers into the over-populated and over-polluted cities of Western Europe, the reverse should be the pattern; the industries and the development should be brought to the areas where the people already are. These are some of the problems of planning and conservation. We should be very much alive to them. We should have a continuing interest in planning, development and conservation. As I said earlier, every year should be not alone a conservation year but a development year as well.

The very long contributions to this debate indicate the importance of this Estimate. We had a long introductory speech from the Minister but despite its length, I could see no evidence of any great change in the attitude of the Minister and his Department. The Minister's difficulties are appreciated. He has a great many functions.

My first criticism is the fact that the Department's priorities are completely wrong. Everybody realises that housing is the most important function of the Department since a house is a basic essential for every family in our community. If the Minister dropped all his other activities for one year and introduced legislation here for a crash housing programme he would have my full support and, I am sure, the support of every Deputy in this House. I heard Deputy O'Connell point out how difficult it is without first-hand experience to get any idea of the misery, the mental anguish and the problems of those living in hovels. I understand he has visited people in his constituency living in very bad housing conditions. I have had similar experience in my own constituency.

Both at local authority level and here in this House there are members who questioned the provision of the money for water, sewerage, swimming pools, public conveniences, and so on. Last month at a meeting of Cork County Council the provision of money for a swimming pool in a certain village came up for discussion. I objected to the provision of that money and some people put the wrong interpretation on my objections. In the area in which this swimiming pool was to be provided there are people living in caravans. It is very little consolation to tell a woman with young children that she has a public convenience across the way which cost the ratepayers and the tax-payers £3,000, or that she has a swimming pool down the road which cost up to £100,000, but there is not sufficient money to put her, her husband and her children into a proper house.

If the Minister is really sincere in tackling this problem he should concentrate on it and leave his other functions to one side. If he did that he would have my full support. I know a family, husband, wife and three children, who have been living in a caravan for the last three years. They are on the housing list for approximately three years. The system where housing is concerned is too cumbersome and people like this get tired of waiting for houses. I have made representations on behalf of this family but I have made very little progress.

I appeal to the Minister to put housing at the top of the list. I know that other amenities are essential, but the most essential of all and the most basic requirement of any family is a proper home. It is frustrating visiting these people and knowing one can do very little for them. I am very familiar with the housing problem in my constituency because, like Deputy O'Connell, I have visited these people. Often a young married couple will approach one to put them on the housing list. One asks the housing authority to send them an application form to fill in and send on to the manager. Their current housing position will then be examined and they will be put on a waiting list. I shall never accept from any Minister or manager of a local authority that it should take so much time. We have people in Cork who are four, five or six years on the housing list. Somebody applies and qualifies under a housing survey. Between the date he qualifies and the date sanction is given by the Department that case will have travelled up and down between the authority and the Custom House very many times. The delay is inexcusable.

I heard the Minister interrupting a Deputy on this side saying this matter would be dealt with in the reorganisation of local authorities. I hope this is so but I have looked through the memorandum on the subject from the Department and I see no specific reference to giving more autonomy or authority in decision-making to local authorities. Local authorities with their technical staff are far more familiar with the housing situation in their functional area than the Custom House staff. This is no reflection on the Custom House people but it is not necessary that every decision in relation to a housing scheme should be sanctioned in the Custom House. It would expedite the provision of houses and streamline the system making it much more effective if members and technical staffs of local authorities had authority to provide houses without intervention by the Custom House.

What we as well as the Minister and his Department should do is try to induce people to build their own houses. To a family their house is their palace and the wife particularly will be more interested if living in her own house. This would relieve the local authority of the burden of providing houses. We should have a scheme to provide loans at a very much reduced rate of interest, if not interest free, to people building their own houses. The Minister may ask how and why you should provide interest-free loans. I believe such loans should be provided for those who qualify in a housing survey and are on the council's list for rehousing. This is the only way in which we can wipe out the backlog in respect of local authority houses. At present young people getting married are forced into flats at exorbitant rents up to £5 or £6 a week and this brings them no nearer having their own house. If we could induce them and encourage them to build their own houses it would be more economic and would be a wiser course for them. I believe this is a necessary provision. I am very keen on encouraging people to provide their own houses.

There is a problem, a great problem, in regard to the provision of land for housing sites. I welcome very much what the Parliamentary Secretary said is envisaged in the new Planning Act where the Minister will no longer set himself up as judge and jury on who should get planning permission and who should not. Planning has a big bearing on the provision of houses. Local authorities can play a part here because they should be engaged in buying land near settlement areas, near towns and villages where housing is envisaged. The land should be available fully serviced so that when somebody, particularly those on the housing list, are induced to build their own houses, sites will be available. When such people through relatives or friends secure a cheap housing site and apply for planning permission the planning authority will say: "No, you cannot get permission for this site because it infringes the Planning Act provisions." Nobody complains about the application of the Planning Act, which is necessary. But hardship can be created. I believe that a local authority, when they refuse permission to people building their own houses on their own sites, should be able to say: "We have a fully serviced site nearby at a reasonable price where we can grant planning permission."

There is a section in the Act, I think, providing that a son or daughter of a landowner is entitled to planning permission but there are many people who will buy land from some relative cheaply. Then they find the cost of a site where planning permission is available is beyond their means. We should have a more humane approach in such cases. I was glad to hear the Parliamentary Secretary say that even though planning is necessary local authority members and planners should consider the human aspect of planning and take into consideration the circumstances he mentioned.

Everybody agrees that planning is necessary. In fact, we were not quick enough in producing a Planning Act and controlling development so as to preserve beauty spots particularly in the southern coastal area where speculators were quickly off the mark in putting up buildings that would not be allowed under the Planning Act.

In Cork County Council we are at present in the process of producing a new plan. We are going over the old plan which in its application was rather rigid. A sub-committee of the council is now examining the old plan and producing a new one. The elected members of the local authority are, in fact, the planning authority; they provide the plan and turn it over to the technical staff under the manager for implementation. I think it is necessary that any member of a local authority should have access to all the files in relation to planning. They should be able to go into an office and say: "I want to see such-and-such a fellow's report, I want to see the file and I want to examine it in detail." This might inconvenience the office staff but it is very necessary if one is interested in somebody who has made a planning application.

This is why the applicant is obliged by statute to give notice of his intention to apply and not alone can a local councillor but any member of the public can go in and see the plan.

I am glad the Parliamentary Secretary said that out loud. This is very necessary and some officials are not too anxious to allow even members——

This is the law. Not alone a Deputy or a councillor but any member of the public who thinks he may be affected by the development envisaged in the application can go in and see the plan.

I am very glad to hear this because in my opinion not alone should justice be done as far as planning is concerned, it should be seen to be done. Members should at least have access to the files and the reports particularly when planning is refused. One of the objections to planning is that one cannot create access to a main arterial road. We should have far more development along our main arterial roads. Between Cork city and Macroom town there is only one area in which housing development has been allowed along that 25-mile stretch of road. There are people anxous to build their own houses on the main road and for that reason we should have more areas where planning is allowed. I am opposed to sprawling or ribbon development but I feel it is necessary to allow development along main arterial roads where a speed limit operates and where services would be provided.

I want to deal with some other problems in relation to housing. Not only is it necessary to increase grants for new houses, it is necessary to increase reconstruction grants which have not kept abreast with rising costs. I do not know when the £340 maximum reconstruction grant was introduced but it certainly needs to be increased because the cost of materials and the cost of building is such that the grant is no longer relevant to the cost of improving or reconstructing a house.

It is encouraging to see an increase in the number of people reconstructing and improving their houses. Whilst people are now more conscious of amenities like water and sewerage facilities every encouragement should be given to them to carry out improvements. This brings me to a point about which I feel very strongly and about which I have a criticism to make — the provision of group water schemes. In my own area a number of schemes have got off the ground in the last 12 months. The Parliamentary Secretary is aware of the amount of community co-operation required if a scheme is to get off the ground. In Cork county we have people who have paid money since 1965 and still no work has been done on the scheme. This has happened because there is no co-operation between the local authority engineers and the Department's inspectors and engineers. I can remember asking the Minister's predecessor if he would allow his inspectors to come to meetings in order to discuss schemes of mutual interest. I cannot understand why the then Minister refused.

I am almost certain this is being done now.

It is not. We had a very recent experience in Cork where not alone did we write to the Minister's office but the officials got on the telephone on the day of the meeting, because of the schemes which were held up.

They do not attend meetings but they can and do attend at county council offices to discuss with applicants any problems which they may have. It is being done in Donegal.

I want to pay a tribute to the officials in Cork because they are hard working and under-staffed but are not allowed to come to meetings. All we ask is that they be allowed to attend two meetings a year so that we can discuss schemes of mutual interest. In the case of the Ovens group water scheme the supply is to be taken along the main arterial road. After the money had been paid by the members of the group the county council engineers demanded a sum of £2,000 to put the road back into repair after the scheme had been completed. Every member of the southern housing committee of the Cork County Council is aware of this. They have all expressed their concern and disgust at the fact that the Minister refused to allow his inspectors to attend meetings where they would be confronted with the engineers of Cork County Council and where a compromise could be worked out so that the scheme could go ahead. Instead we have the engineers of Cork County Council on the one side and the engineers of the group water scheme on the other and there is no compromise and no dialogue and as a result the group members who would benefit from the scheme are still waiting for the engineers to iron out their difficulties and their differences so that the scheme can start.

In another case the Department's inspectors wanted to take a scheme across private property. The members again paid up their money. The council engineer objected because the water was coming from a local council scheme. For 12 months nothing more has been done because the Minister will not allow his inspectors to come in to discuss the scheme. I remember going on a deputation to the Parliamentary Secretary's predecessor and when we discussed it with him he said, "I think you have a very good case, I think we should allow this and I will talk to the Minister about it." That happened one and a half years ago and nothing has been done since. There are houses in this country which will never have running water except through a group scheme and for that reason it is very necessary to have dialogue and co-operation between the local authority engineers and the Department's inspectors. Would the Parliamentary Secretary have this re-examined, let commonsense prevail and allow his inspectors to attend meetings?

They do attend at county council offices where they can meet engineers, applicants and councillors and discuss any schemes in the area. This already is possible and is being done. I agree that the provision of more group schemes is necessary and we have had a 300 per cent increase over the past couple of years.

Yes, because the people have come to realise that there are areas that will never have a water supply except through a group scheme. The Minister's inspectors are not allowed into the meetings in Cork. They have access to the offices but there is no hope of getting the two sets of engineers together with the members so that they can have a discussion and reach a compromise. The Minister has refused this time and again and this creates a problem. If the Parliamentary Secretary doubts this he should get on to the council office in Cork or to his Department's office there and he will be told that this is the situation. There is also the problem that where the provision of a group scheme is held up people are not allowed grants for private installations for the sinking of pumps, because there is a group scheme envisaged in the area. I agree with that if the group scheme can be expedited. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will take note of what I have said and if he has any doubt about its validity he should get on to the office and he will be told the true position.

In regard to the Road Fund I can never understand why we cannot be notified prior to the estimates meeting of the Cork County Council the amount of road grant we are to get. The Minister knows that it is mandatory that the rate should be struck by a certain date. Last year our members refused to strike the rate until the last day. They wanted to be informed by the Minister the amount of money which was to be given to us for that particular year. The Minister refused to inform us. We met and by a vote it was decided to strike the rate. If we refused to strike a rate the council would be abolished. Three weeks later we were informed by the Minister for Local Government that the road grant had been reduced by £68,600. The engineers had prepared their estimates. They had gone out to the roads and discussed with their assistant county engineers what was demanded in the different areas. In Cork we have about 50 assistant county engineers. All this was done in anticipation of the road grant being the same as it was the previous year. The shock came three weeks later when we had struck the rate and had budgeted for the year. The engineers in view of the reduction in the road grant, had to go back over the work they had done. Can anybody tell me what is the idea? Can the Parliamentary Secretary or the Minister inform the House why local authorities are not notified well in advance of the estimates meeting the amount of money that is available to the county council from the Road Fund? Otherwise the council is working in the dark, striking a rate which is not realistic, a rate which is based on what the road grant was for the previous year.

This is the second time in four years that the road grant to Cork County Council has been drastically reduced. The effect of the reduction means the disemployment, if we are to accept the manager's assessment, of approximately 50 road workers. This is a very serious situation. Some workers thought it was so serious that a deputation should visit the Taoiseach. We are still waiting for that. I believe that there will be very little result. Fifty men who have given service to the council, some of them for many years, will now be made redundant. To add to that we are in Cork county — I voted against it and will continue to oppose it — recruiting area supervisors to assist the local engineers at a cost to the county of up to £50,000 a year. The whole thing is crazy. The Department of Local Government have expressed their interest in providing for the engineers helpers known as area supervisors. This is a colossal cost to the county particularly when the Road Fund was reduced to such an extent that we have to let 50 road workers go.

At our estimates meeting this year the rate went up by approximately 25s in the £. This was a colossal increase. We on this side of the House have been saying for a long time that the present rating system is completely out-dated and has no relationship whatever to the ability of individual ratepayers to pay. This demands attention. Rates at present are creating terrible hardship for people trying to meet their demands. Some of them find it almost impossible. There are many people who are living on social welfare, widows and people with small incomes, people whose business was completely taken away from them in towns and villages by the introduction of big combines and supermarkets and they are still paying the full rate on their houses. The Minister should have a look at this. There is great hardship in the case of a person who in the past had a reasonably good business from a small shop and was able to meet the demands made on him but the introduction of the supermarket took away his livelihood and he is now not in a position to pay his rates. Rates are continuing to rise with little improvement in the services. All members of local authorities are innundated with people asking them to get them time to pay their rates. I do not know what the answer is but I know that people are groaning under the burden of continually rising rates. We are coming to the stage when, unless the rating system is changed completely, it will be almost impossible to collect the rates. In Cork most of the rates are collected through the council's office and great difficulty is experienced in trying to get the rates from the people. This must be tackled. It is creating tremendous hardship for small shopkeepers and people living in private houses.

Together with the serious reduction in the amount of money which the Department are paying to the local authorities, there are rising rates and a spate of increased valuations. In some cases valuations have been increased by almost 500 per cent. People are finding it very difficult to meet the demands made on them. I had a case recently where the valuation of a premises went up from £17 10s to £98. This is not unique. In the past 12 months the number of people whose valuations have been increased in Cork county was unusually large to say the least of it. I want to refer now to the housing of itinerants. I should like to pay tribute to the Minister. He is a young Minister and when he was first appointed to this very responsible position he expressed concern for these people. He has done more for them than any other Minister. He was sincere about re-housing itinerants.

I will give credit where credit is due. This met with the approval of everybody concerned. If we are to succeed in rehabilitating or re-integrating these people into the community we must have community involvement. We must encourage people to take an interest in the re-housing of itinerants. There is no point in putting a number of itinerant families into one area. When they are being rehoused this development must have the goodwill of the people of the area. This is the only way in which we can solve this terrible problem. They must be provided with a house in an area where the people will welcome them, mix with them, talk to them and get them involved in the community spirit.

Cork County Council were the first authority to provide a number of social workers who were specially assigned to this type of work. When an itinerant family are housed in an area and accepted in the area, the local authorities are inclined to house more itinerant families there. I think this is wrong. Those families must be dispersed in different areas. That is very necessary if this very desirable work is to be effective. We must have the goodwill of the people concerned. There are areas in which people object to this development. I think they object because they do not want to have more than one itinerant family in the area.

A matter which has been mentioned to me on a number of occasions is the derating of land within urban areas. This should be tackled. It is long overdue. In reply to a Parliamentary Question by me the Minister said that land within urban areas is regarded as building land. This is not so. There is some land within the urban areas which could not be put in that category. Smallholders living solely on farms within urban areas are not benefiting from the derating scheme which operates outside the urban areas. The Minister should consider this point.

We have another problem in Cork to which some of the time of this House was devoted in recent years, that is, the extension of the Cork borough boundary. I can remember one day when we voted a number of times against the extension of the boundary. The last time the boundary was extended was in 1965. We had a discussion in this House and, following arbitration, the amount of compensation was fixed and is still being paid to Cork County Council on the instalment system. At present there are rumblings from corporation members, officials and people in responsible positions about a further extension of the borough boundary. I want to express my view in strong terms. The Minister should not agree to any further extension of the Cork borough boundary. We must have a city which is containable. At the moment the traffic problems and the housing problems are acute. Rather than extending the boundary and extending the functions of Cork Corporation we should be building satellite towns in places like Carrigaline, Ballincollig, Blarney, Midleton, Cobh and Youghal. The towns around the hinterland of the city should be strengthened and improved.

The final point I want to make is in relation to the re-structurng or reorganisation of the local authorities. I concede that certain changes are necessary but I would not agree for a moment that local authorities should be done away with. I know that the rules of order do not allow me to refer in detail to the setting up of the regional health boards but my opinion is that they will not work. I would be opposed to anything on those lines suggested by the Department. While there is nothing specific in the memorandum that came from the Department, there are suggestions and hints, and one never knows what the Department have in mind.

I know that some of the town and urban councils throughout the country have very little to do. They should be given greater powers and have complete control and complete authority so far as decision making is concerned. In their own way, members of local authorities are social workers. In the absence of any information centre or bureau to inform the people of what they are entitled to, the local authorities are necessary. All members of local authorities — whether it is a county council, an urban council or a town council — appreciate that every day of the week people are inquiring about what they are entitled to and asking them to fill out forms and advise them on what they should do when they are applying for any of the services which are available.

If changes are necessary, and I believe they are, those people should be given more autonomy and more power in decision making. If we are to have a system such as that which is in operation in relation to health, time will prove that it will be a complete failure. So far as regionalisation is concerned we have gone completely mad. If the Minister had anything to offer I would wish him to be more specific than what he was in producing the memorandum that was circulated. Local authorities are providing a good service for the people whom they represent.

In introducing the Estimate, the Minister for Local Government made an exceptionally long statement. On behalf of my colleagues here we welcome this in itself. That is to say, we welcome the fact that the Minister, unlike, perhaps, some of his colleagues, has endeavoured to take this House into his confidence, has explained to us his problems as Minister and what is his approach to them. We are glad also that the Parliamentary Secretary has added some important elements to that statement.

We have many criticisms both in relation to the Estimate and to the Minister's speech but I should like to make it clear at the outset that we are not criticising the Minister personally except to the extent that he may not yet have brought to his important office enough of the new-broom approach that is needed so much there but which, in certain areas, he has tried to bring in.

When a Government have been in office for as long as the present Government, it is inevitable that not only among the Cabinet but also among those who administer decisions, there should grow a certain amount of complacency and this has happened in respect of Local Government as has been reflected in the debate.

Deputy Burke, speaking of the Minister's speech, said that it made history. I think he was referring to the length of the statement. However, Deputy Moore went a good deal further and said as reported at column 1270 of the Dáil Debates for the 9th June, 1971:

When one considers the Minister's introductory speech on this Estimate and the tremendous evidence in it of planning at every stage I feel sure it will be regarded as a classical reference work on local government.

It is seldom that we say kind things about each other in this House but we have no objection at all to this kind of comment. At the same time, it seems to us that a classic reference work on local government is not exactly what most people need from the Department at this time. According to the lowest computation which is the Department's own, there are over 8,000 applicants for local authority houses. We think the correct figure is much higher than that. Many of these people have been on the waiting list for a long time and they are not looking for a classic on local government. They are looking for a house. The same applies to many other people — those, for intance, who wish to purchase houses, but who have been deterred and disappointed by the increase in housing costs and by the increases in deposits. Again, these people do not want a graceful and rounded statement on the subject. They want an answer to their problems. The same applies, too, to those who are bewildered and distressed by the operation of the differential rents scheme. I would say there are more of these than the Minister is prepared to allow for. Another source of distress to many people, particularly in Dublin city, is the lack of adequate amenities in houses. I know that the Minister is concerned personally with this problem and here, again, I should say that what we must direct ourselves to is not the Minister's personal attitude but the Minister's attitudes in conjunction with the habits of the Government of which he is a member and the habits of the Department which he must administer.

Again, people concerned with the pollution of our waters and air, particularly in Dublin city, are not concerned with words or the arrangement of words but, of course, they are interested in what Deputy Moore refers to as the "tremendous evidence of planning at every stage which is reflected in the Minister's speech".

We, in the Labour Party, believe in planning and we believe also in adequate studies for planning and in action on the basis of these studies. However, we are not happy in regard to the relation of these various elements as they are reflected in the Minister's speech. In this context I should like to give some examples but to do so it will be necessary for me to quote from several parts of the Minister's speech. If the House will bear with me, I shall have to quote from a number of sections, the point being that we regard them as having something in common.

The common element seems to us to be the putting off of the evil hour or, in other words, passing the buck. We may be wrong in this view in relation to some of these and the Minister may be able to indicate to us that we are so wrong but it seems to us that the quotations to which I shall refer reflect a common pattern and that that pattern is a disturbing one. It is a pattern that shows a dilatory tendency in relation to urgent problems. The Minister himself may well be concerned about this. I would refer back to what I said earlier about a distinction between the present incumbent of an office and the traditions of a Department and of a Government. All my quotations for this section of my remarks will be from the Minister's speech, that is from the Official Report, volume 254 of 27th May and I will give the column references.

The first matter I should like to mention is the question of land for building. This is a matter on which, as the Minister will know, the Labour Party have laid considerable emphasis. We all know, and the Minister emphasises this, that the main block in the way of housing our people adequately is a financial one. We also know that a main component in this has been the price of land for development. Of course the price of land, as we all know, skyrockets once it is known that it is going to be used for development purposes. We in the Labour Party advocate a quite clear method for dealing with this, that the purchase of land for development purposes should be entirely in the hands of the local authorities and the price of the land should be fixed by reference to its previous use and not just by reference to its development potential. That is a clear-cut policy. What has the Minister's speech got to say? At column 445 he said:

Deputies will have noted the appointment by me of a committee, under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Kenny, to inquire into the problem of the cost of land for building.

We would like to have it noted that this problem has been there for quite a long time and that people outside the Government have been drawing attention to this urgent problem for quite a long time but it is only now, in 1971, that this Government get round even to setting up a committee to study the problem. So, although this is in our view welcome to some degree in that they are paying some attention to the problem that the Minister's predecessor seemed to ignore, it is still a very belated measure. The Minister goes on:

This problem was under examination in my Department for some time but it was not found possible to devise a practical, workable solution.

This again seems very strange. Here we have a large, well-financed, well-equipped, Department and available to it the services of a research unit which Ministers for Local Government are in the habit of praising annually, An Foras Forbartha, and yet, although they think the problem is soluble, since it has been referred to a committee, they have not been able to see a solution for it. What kind of strange paralysis is this? How did they get themselves into this position and why do they think a commission will be able to solve what they with their resources have not been able to resolve? We would like to know the answer to that.

The Minister said:

The Government have been acutely conscious of the problem and wish to pursue the search for a solution, treating the matter as an issue of urgent public importance.

It was an issue of urgent public importance, as we pointed out, at least two years ago, and long before that, but it was greatly emphasised two years ago, and the Government's way of treating it as an issue of urgent public importance is to set up a committee to look at it now.

The Minister continued:

While I am aware of the difficulties involved, I hope that the committee, under their eminent chairman, may be able to find a solution within a reasonable time.

I do not know how long the Kenny Committee will be expected to take in finding this solution which has evaded the combined resources of the Department all these years but we hope it will not be out of proportion because this is a very urgent problem.

I suppose we may infer from the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Kenny that perhaps, although the Department presumably have already legal advice available to them, what they are concerned with and what they think the committee may solve which they have not solved is the possible constitutional issue. This, of course was frequently referred to by the Minister's predecessor. When questions were put to him on this point the Minister's predecessor used always say that nationalisation of land, as he used to put it — we thought it a rather distorted way of summarising our proposals on this matter—might be unconstitutional. I wonder how long we are to stand paralysed on this question before it is put beyond doubt whether it may be unconstitutional or not. No decision can be made on that issue by any Department, by any Deputy or even I would think by the Kenny Commission, but is it not possible for the Government to decide what they think equitably and properly should be done about the purchase of land and then put the question to the body which has the ultimate decision on this matter, which is the Supreme Court? Is there no way of doing this? If the Government think that the measures which it might be proper to take might conceivably be repugnant to the Constitution can they not in some way invoke or obtain a decision — I do not know through what legal channels, I am not a lawyer — but it seems commonsense that the Supreme Court surely tries as the Government do, to apply commonsense. Surely it should be possible to determine this issue in some way or another, even if necessary by putting through a Bill and having that tested then? But we do not think that this should be left in the air as it has been for so long as a problem that has apparently baffled all the best brains in the Department and then has to be referred at this extremely late date to a new committee which will report, we do not know when. And, again, another thing we do not know is what the Government will do with that report when the Kenny Committee have reported. Will they, perhaps, act on it or will they perhaps get the reactions of somebody else to it or refer it to some other group or in general keep it hanging in the air?

Let us see what they are doing with other things. I think there is certain pattern in these adjournments of decisions and indecisions. In referring to the steps he was taking in dealing with the problem of controlling water and air pollution the Minister said at column 452.

A significant development in this respect was the recent establishment of a working group representative of all Government Departments concerned to examine and report to me on the nature and extent of all air and water pollution problems, the different remedial strategies that might be adopted, the cost of these strategies...

The working group have commenced their examination of these problems and I am confident that they will report without undue delay.

I do not think we can be satisfied here with that "without undue delay" because while the working group are deliberating—and again they were set up at a late date when the pollution problem was far advanced — the problem is still growing and it has been growing of course, particularly in the city of Dublin which is most accutely affected, as every Dublin Deputy and even those Deputies who are obliged, as all Deputies are, to spend some part of their time in Dublin, very well know. So, I should like to ask the Minister whether when such a working group is set up a definite date cannot be laid down for them to finish their work and report to the Minister when we have an urgent problem of this kind? We do not want to be misunderstood on this. We are not urging action without study. Where studies are needed they should be initiated promptly, as was not the case either with the Kenny Committee or in regard to this problem. There should be a definite time limit and when the results are in the Government should make up their minds about what they want to do. These are problems all of which need action — not just study.

In regard to water pollution we are told that Dublin Corporation have retained a firm of international standing to advise them on the project in order to ensure that the effluent from the treatment works will be of an acceptable standard. We are told that when the new treatment works come into commission the condition of Dublin Bay should be improved noticeably. I would hope this would be so. As many Deputies know, Dublin Bay is in a filthy condition. We all have experience of this; we have experience of it where I live, particularly in regard to the far side of Howth. Anyone who is engaged in the study of this problem should take a daily swim in a suitable area in the bay, or beyond the bay at a place such as Balscaddan.

Let us take a more advanced example of a study, followed by more study, followed by prolonged inaction. I refer to the Buchanan Report which has become something of a scandal. The responsibility for this goes far beyond one Minister. Let me cite some of the references to this in the Minister's statement. At column 464, Volume 254 of the Official Report, for 27th May, 1971, the Minister stated:

The Buchanan Report is one view, by independent United Nations consultants, of what the framework for regional development might be. The Government are determined that there should be adequate opportunity for other views to be aired and for the implications of the Buchanan recommendations to be examined before policy is determined as regards objectives for development at the regional level.

Even before objectives have been decided it appears we will need a great deal of further study and reference.

The Buchanan Commission were set up in October, 1966, and were invited to study the matter. The Commission reported in 1968 and the report has neither been acted upon nor rejected since that time. It is still being pushed around among various people to get their reactions — reactions which are predictable in many cases. The Minister has stated that very serious consideration must be given to the kind of action recommended in the report. Various organisations have been invited to make known their views and conclusions on how a programme for regional development should be approached in their region. At column 467, Volume 254 of the Official Report for 27th May, 1971, the Minister states:

The procedure I have described takes time, considerable time. No apology need be made for this.

Surely it must be clear that if more time elapses the contours of the problem which the commission examined will have changed. Already they have changed to some extent since 1968 and if this study continues for much longer the problem will no longer be the problem originally studied. Will we then have another United Nations commission to look into the matter?

This is serious in its implications not only in relation to the Buchanan Report but in relation to the credibility of any other study the Government may commission. It is necessary and desirable to commission a study and this study covered an important range of topics. However, if the study when completed is passed round to an indefinite number of people and nothing happens, one may suspect that the Government are reluctant for political reasons to take action and that the simplest way out is to stall. Stalling in the guise of study is something Opposition Deputies think it their duty to expose.

The White Paper is relevant in this matter. At column 477, volume 254 of the Official Report the Minister stated:

I repeat that the White Paper is intended to provoke public discussion and to serve as a basis for consultation with interests concerned. Constructive comments on the proposals, from whatever source, will be welcomed and taken into account before final decisions are made as to the changes which should be affected.

Later the Minister stated:

It was for this reason that the White Paper itself asked that comments should be submitted before the end of April, 1971. I received, however, a number of requests from local authorities and other bodies to extend this date and, in order to meet these requests as far as possible, I decided to extend the date by two months, i.e., until 30th June, 1971.

One would have thought that by the end of this time a decision would be made but the Minister has stated that at the end of this period he hopes to hold discussions with local representatives throughout the country in regard to the White Paper. I do not know if the Minister will correct me on this, but I would infer that it is not likely that the kind of proposals contained in the White Paper will be in force before the next local elections. The Minister does not correct that assumption so I take it it would not be an improbable one.

The Deputy should not assume anything from my silence. I will reply to the points the Deputy is making when I am replying to the debate.

I thank the Minister. I could produce many references in regard to local finance. At column 479, Volume 254 of the Official Report the Minister stated:

The comprehensive investigations and reviews which have been in progress are, of course, a necessary preliminary in any major overhaul of the system of local finance and taxation.

There are similar passages about votes at 18 and about roads but I do not need to elaborate on them.

We should like to emphasise that we are not against adequate, competent study of any problem, nor are we against consultation. We are against study and consultation as an alibi for indecision, inaction and for shelving the problem. That has happened in the case of the Buchanan Report and we have reason to fear it will happen in relation to the wide variety of other issues on which the Minister commented in his speech. We have the right to make these comments at this stage. Fianna Fáil have been in government for nearly 14 years and they have had control of the important Department of Local Government. They have had time to adjust to change, to be able to predict changing trends, to set up studies where studies are needed at an early phase in the development of the problem. Certainly studies in pollution in the Dublin area might well have been initiated five years ago — I would say ten years ago, or even longer — and when we find a study mounted at this late stage in the evolution of a problem we have some reason. I am afraid, to doubt the bona fides of this movement because any decision is, of course, likely to involve two things. It involves an unpleasant tension of political choice — I am speaking of electoral areas — and it costs money. There will be a certain amount of pressure on any Government to stall, to avoid these unpleasant dilemmas, not to meet them, and to advance some plausible reason for not meeting them. There are two plausible reasons — one is study and the other is consultation. The present Government have made and are making an altogether excessive use of these two pretexts and in a way which tends to discredit the very idea of study. I think it was General de Gaulle who said that to govern is to choose. A way of refraining from choosing is by continuing to study and consult. That is also a way of refraining from governing. We think this way of dealing with things fits into the general pattern of this Government's activity and inactivity.

I shall not go into details about other matters. I would not be permitted to do so. I should like to say, however, that this idea of flying a kite and then hauling it down again — we have seen it so often in relation to prices and incomes, to education, to dole proposals, to community schools, and so on—does not encourage confidence when we are told about all these studies and consultations that are going on. We do not think in those circumstances it is demagogic to say that, at this stage, after all these years in office, we ought to be seeing much more action and hearing much less about eventual studies and consultations. We think the Taoiseach's first Government in this Dáil was a dangerous one. We think his second is also dangerous in a different way, through hesitancies, postponements and the alibi of study and consultation.

I should like to say something now about housing, especially housing in Dublin. We have heard a great deal from the Government benches about "Not to worry; the shortage of housing in Dublin is really a good thing because it reflects a growing city. There will always be a problem in a growing city and Dubliners should be happy that their city is growing instead of complaining they have not got houses." This alibi, of course, would apply in reverse in areas in the country which are no longer populated; the people, such of them as remain, should be happy because they have houses and because there is no housing shortage instead of complaining about emigration and the denudation of the land. Surely here, as the Minister and his supporters have laid emphasis on planning, it should be taken into account that planning is a matter of keeping pace.

The growth of Dublin city has nothing unpredictable or strange about it, certainly not to people who have been reading Buchanan for so long as the members of the Government have given themselves the opportunity to do so. If there is a backlog, and there is a very large backlog, it cannot be attributed just to growth. It must be attributed to the failure of planning to keep pace. As we know, the backlog here was created, I think as a matter of deliberate economic policy, by this Government in the late fifties and early sixties when the government deliberately emphasised the housing problem. Those who are now homeless in Dublin city are homeless because of decisions taken at that time and the failure of the Government subsequently adequately to compensate for that policy.

The Minister's statement on the whole housing issue, and this applies also to the statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary just now, was unduly complacent and anyone who represents a Dublin constituency has good reason to be aware of this. We are well behind other countries, almost all countries indeed in Western Europe, and well behind Northern Ireland in this matter of housing. We have fallen below Spain at the last count and in the number of new dwellings provided according to the figures published by the OECD in 1971, relating to an earlier period, we are shown to be ahead of Turkey only, with Greece, one of the poorest countries in Europe, building dwellings at twice our level. I am aware that statistics in regard to housing can be diversely applied. I shall come back to that later. There is the question of the type of units used. I think that, whatever juggling one might do with the details of the statistics, any candid Minister for Local Government would have to be aware and have to say that at the present time — I am not speaking of the past when we did place a great deal of emphasis on housing; the first Fianna Fáil Government certainly did in the thirties; we were then making a very big effort in this area, but we have allowed ourselves to fall well behind— we come very low in the European table in the matter of housing.

There is another matter about which I am concerned. It is the backlog in meeting the needs of the homeless which is used as an alibi for ignoring the reasonable needs of those who are already housed. At column 438 of volume 254 of the Official Report the Minister said:

This means, for instance, that we cannot spend on subsidies for local authority houses money which we should be using for new construction. Persons living in houses of reasonable quality may have their grievances, but these can be nothing like as genuine and pressing as the grievances of families in slum conditions.

I do not think that will do. I do not think that a Government who have shelved the problem, a problem which the Kenny Committee are now going to study, have the resource of being able to say to people who are already housed: "You are damn lucky to have a house and we are not going to worry about your problems". This, in effect, is what they are saying because, they argue, the housing of the homeless is urgent. That is the vicious circle in what the Government are saying and in what is implied in that statement by the Minister. If this were pushed to its logical conclusion — and it is very near that now, as anybody who visits certain housing estates around Dublin can see — it would come very near the point where what we are doing is taking people out of old slums and putting them into what, as a result of neglect, will very soon become a new type of slum. It is not enough to say that because some people are still houseless we can pay no attention to the needs of those already housed. Particularly, it is not enough if means for housing those who are not yet housed are not available in the form of laws which would reduce the price of development land and the Government are not pressing ahead with that matter.

I should like to refer to an attitude of mind which exists on the part of some officials in relation to this. Officials, like other people, have different characters. I have accompanied a number of deputations from my constituency to see members of Dublin Corporation at official level — the only level now existing — and we have been courteously received. Tenants' grievances were discussed but almost always at some point in the discussion someone on the official side makes a remark to the general effect: "You people are living in subsidised housing and you should be grateful for what you get". That view, which is seldom as brutally or clearly stated as that, is present all the time and affects the general view on the matter. I should like to come back later to the question of subsidy.

We on these benches welcome the statement just made by the Parliamentary Secretary about the forthcoming legislation which, as I understood from him, will take the final decision on appeals for planning permission from the Minister and give it to a board. That is very welcome. We were among those who criticised this power and some examples of the use of this power in Ministers' hands. We think it would be a very positive element if the power is now transferred to an independent board, as I understood from the Parliamentary Secretary that it would be. Unfortunately, we must qualify our approval a little until we know more about these proposals in that we need to be satisfied that it will be a genuinely independent board. I have a piece of legislation not directly relevant in its form to what we are discussing here — we shall be discussing it next week — and it is a proposal which purports to transfer responsibility from a Minister to a board. Unfortunately, it is only too apparent from the provisions of the Bill in question that the transfer will be only an apparent one: the Minister will, in fact, exercise control through a board which will be entirely in his power, as would be the case with any board, being selected by the Government. Therefore, we would like to reserve, as indeed we must, our final comments on this matter until we know what kind of board this will be, what powers it will have and what guarantee there will be of its autonomy and whether its composition is such as to entitle it to the respect of the community without regard to party. Assuming that will be the case — rather a large assumption at this point — we would welcome that development.

I should like some elucidation about the kind of help which will be forthcoming for co-operative house-building associations of which there are now a considerable number. There is one in my own area very near me and they were perturbed by the recent statement by the Minister on television, I believe in Limerick, about setting up a special section to deal with their needs and requests. Those who saw me about this, while they welcomed it in principle, did not seem to feel that there were any signs of such a system being yet available to them practically and I would be grateful if the Minister would refer to this point in his concluding remarks.

One big difficulty in regard to housing which has been mentioned by other speakers and is important in Dublin is that unless you have three children at least you have no chance of a local authority house at present. Certainly, Dublin Deputies and, I suppose those in other parts of the country also, have had the unpleasant experience of listening to some harrowing tale told by somebody with one child, two children, or no children living in absolutely miserable and distressing conditions. Any Deputy who listens to such a story has to say at the end: "I am sorry; you have absolutely no chance. Your chance of getting a house or any accommodation is simply nil." The implications of this obviously are very serious. Other countries — this I think is one reason for the odd divergencies in interpretation of international statistics on this matter — have a policy of providing different sizes of housing units, which seem to make sense, for different sizes of family units. We agree that large families naturally require, from a commonsense point of view, larger housing units and also a considerable degree of priority but we think the provision of housing units should be such as to include smaller units. At present the implication almost appears to be that if you have a smaller family than three children there must be something wrong and you do not deserve too much consideration. We think this is altogether wrong and we hope the Minister will hold out some hope in these cases of introducing at least a small degree of diversification in the housing units available because there is virtually none at the moment.

We all know the old story of brigand Procrustes' bed. If one was too short for the bed he stretched one and if one was too long for the bed he cut off one's feet. Our housing policy has been somewhat Procrustian in that way. I have heard families say: "We must hurry on with the third to qualify for a house". There are very few countries in the world at the moment which operate in the direction of supplying incentives for larger families. I do not know whether that philosophy is involved here. Most countries are concerned with the population explosion, as it is called, and this is one of the problems which does not, perhaps, come home to us very directly in that our population has been static for a long time. It is, of course, static through emigration and many of the children growing up in the large housing estates will, in fact, emigrate so that we are contributing to the population explosion if not here then in other countries. The policy of not providing houses for people with less than three children is surely ripe for review.

Another point made by one or two other speakers which I should like to endorse is the question of people not knowing where they are on the list. I agree there will probably always be some measure of uncertainty, but the present uncertainty which we have here is total and is not paralleled in other countries and is a feature of the present somewhat paternalistic way of dealing with people who are in the category of being applicants for houses.

Under the same head I should like to refer in the general area of Dublin to the question of transfers, that is to say a person living in one district adequately housed, according to the criteria which are being applied, but wishing to live elsewhere. As far as I can see, almost no attention is paid to such wishes on this matter even in cases where a transfer would be possible. It does not seem to me that this is a question which one can brush aside by saying: "There is a great backlog of homeless and we do not have time to deal with your problem". If somebody moves from one house to another there is still a house available so that alibi will not serve here.

There are many people in this very wide area of Dublin who have as strong an attachment to a particular part of the Dublin area as people can have to a particular village or rural area outside and a considerable degree of hardship is caused by ignoring that fact. I know that Howth people are attached — and this is true of many other urban areas — to the area from which they come and this is true in particular of women. If they are transferred to a completely different area they tend to be unhappy and nervous unhappiness can result. This kind of distress seems as far as I have been able to find out, to be treated as of no account by Dublin Corporation. Possibly it is that the officials of Dublin Corporation are too hard pressed; possibly they have a rather old-fashioned attitude to the effect of nervous distress, particularly on women. It is of no account. In any case, it does seem that this kind of demand is quite simply brushed aside.

Another problem which is acute in the new housing suburbs, which are the size of a good-sized provincial town, is the shortage of parks and playgrounds. This shortage is quite acute in my own constituency and I believe it is acute in others as well. There is supposed to be a 10 per cent rule, that is to say, that 10 per cent of any new housing area shall be in open spaces but I should like to know whether that is now going to be changed because in his speech the Minister referred to an increasing density of houses. I hope in his reply he will spell out a little more what he means by "increasing density". We realise the pressures there undoubtedly are for economy but the words "increasing density" strike an ominous note to anyone familiar with city conditions here at present.

The 10 per cent rule sounds good and sounds as though there ought to be quite adequate space for recreation and exercise for the children of Dublin and for the older people who also need usable open space. Anyone who goes around Dublin at all knows that the usable open space is far less than 10 per cent. A great deal of the 10 per cent, which is reputedly available as an amenity, consists of wedges of completely useless land, land which is even worse than useless as it tends to be used as a dumping ground and can become a health hazard. Do I understand the Parliamentary Secretary is denying this is the case?

That dumps are designated as open spaces?

Land which becomes dumps, yes. That brings me to something else I was going to say. Last year on the Supplementary Estimate when I raised this question of parks and playgrounds in Dublin city I was interrupted at that time by the Parliamentary Secretary's predecessor, Deputy Geoghegan, who was here a moment ago. I was referring to an open area of land in Coolock and I said I was sure the Parliamentary Secretary——

Incidentally, he is not the Parliamentary Secretary's predecessor.

He was then speaking for the Minister.

But he was not the Parliamentary Secretary.

He was holding that seat for the Minister. I accept the correction. He corrected me. He said:

I do not wish to interrupt the Deputy but I am sure he knows all parks are matters for the local authorities, not the Minister.

I made the point in reply that this put me in a difficulty. The Minister having abolished the elective element in the local authority, I suggested that the Minister or the Minister's spokesman in the House at the time ought to be prepared to give an answer on that. Deputy Geoghegan then went on to say:

This is a matter for Dublin County Council, not the corporation.

Will the Deputy please give the reference?

Volume 244, No. 12, 3rd March, 1970, column 2012. I wonder does the Parliamentary Secretary agree with that?

If a developer applies for planning permission it is granted either by the local authority or by the Minister on appeal.

Since the Parliamentary Secretary is good enough to answer my question, I shall have to put it more clearly. Deputy Geoghegan said that parks and playgrounds in Dublin city are a matter for Dublin County Council, not for Dublin Corporation. Would the Parliamentary Secretary agree with that?

It all depends. If the developer has got planning permission——

From whom? It is not a question of planning permission; it is a question of who deals with parks and playgrounds.

Dublin Corporation.

Dublin Corporation, of course.

So Deputy Geoghegan was wrong. Deputy Geoghegan told me afterwards when I asked him about it that he was sorry but he was thinking of Galway.

The point I would make is that with due respect to the Minister and to the Parliamentary Secretary and to Deputy Geoghegan and to everyone the problems of Dublin city are rather special. They are on a considerable scale and it is not enough for them to be dealt with by people who are thinking of Galway.

I thought the point the Deputy was making had reference to percentage, 10 per cent of the space. Now he is dealing with the care and so on of these places.

What I was dealing with was the lack of amenities of this kind in the housing estates.

The Deputy has gone from the 10 per cent.

I have gone to different aspects of the subject if the Parliamentary Secretary will forgive me. My main head is lack of parks and playgrounds in the great housing estates around Dublin city. Under that head I referred to the fact that these areas are supposed to have 10 per cent of open space.

They have, yes.

I would be very happy to take the Parliamentary Secretary around areas of my constituency, if he would be willing to come with me, and show him what passes for open spaces in various areas and hear what the people have to say about them.

My second point was that it happens that in the case of certain spokesmen on this issue, including the present Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary, it is certainly no reproach to them or to anybody else, their main areas of experience are not in Dublin city. This might not matter very much and I am far from claiming that the Minister for Local Government or the Parliamentary Secretary must be a Dublin man. I am not making this tribalistic assertion and I would not like to be misrepresented as so doing. What I am saying is that it is an unfortunate situation when the elective representation of a great city, and Dublin is a great city, is abolished and it so happens that the parks which were nominally, to some extent at least, controlled by the corporation are handed over entirely to a great Government Department, the Department of Local Government, of which Dublin Corporation is effectively now a sub-Department, not in theory I know, but in practice. The officials of Dublin Corporation are not answerable under God to anyone but the Minister for Local Government. That is a fact and it is an unfortunate matter for the city in these circumstances that their affairs are decided for them by officials who may know little enough about Dublin as was certainly true in the case of the man who was speaking for the Minister on the previous occasion.

Dublin is something in itself. Its problems, the scale of its problems, the quality of its problems, the quality of its existence are something a bit different from the rest of the country. It is at present locally disfranchised. That is an important matter and here I should like to quote from the White Paper. The White Paper says some stirring things. I am referring to Local Government Reorganisation, Appendix A, page 69. The White Paper says some fine things about the management system as it should be and as it represents it as being. I quote:

Under the Management Acts, the functions of local authorities are divided into two classes — reserved functions performable only by the elected members, and executive functions, performable by the city or county manager by order. While the law must make an exact division of functions (so that responsibility for their exercise may be clearly defined) it was never the intention that the elected members and the manager should operate independently of each other. Both the reserved and executive functions of the local authority and the fact that the executive ones are assigned to the manager is simply intended to provide the elected council with an experienced, whole-time administrator for the prompt and efficient discharge of day-to-day business without making an undue demand on the time of the elected members.

I will say this for Dublin city. No undue demand is made on the time of the elected members.

The manager is an officer of the county council or county borough corporation. He is appointed by them ... and he may be suspended by them or removed from office with the consent of the Minister.

The elected council are responsible for all policy decisions — including decisions on financial policy — and the manager must act in conformity with the general policy laid down by them. In carrying out his duties, the manager operates under the general supervision of the council; he is expected to have regard to their wishes and even in the conduct of day-to-day affairs he can be overruled by them. The elected members may require the manager to give them all the information in his possession or procurement on any business or transaction of the local authority. In addition, they may at any time direct him to give them prior information about the manner in which he proposes to perform any specified executive function.

That is a very fine definition of some kind of ideal relationship that there might be between elected members and a manager but what kind of meaning can it have for those of us who live in Dublin city? Again, the Minister has spoken in the same vein at column 474. He said:

It is essential, for these reasons, that we should have a live local government system—

—"live" presumably means with a democratic element in it —

— with a sound structure and sound principles of operation.

Amen.

Would the Deputy quote the number of the volume?

Indeed. It is Volume 254 of 27th May, 1971. I apologise for having inadvertently omitted that citation. Frankly, reading that passage from the White Paper about what the relation of the manager to the elected members is, it is hard not to feel that there is an element of effrontery about that presentation when the capital city of this country, the only really large city in it, has remained for two years without any elected element in it at all and with its manager operating only under the remote control of a member of the Government and when, in fact, democracy in local affairs, as far as Dublin city is concerned, is suppressed and has been for a considerable time.

We do not agree with but we can understand the reason why the Minister took action on this in relation to the non-striking of a rate. What seems to us indefensible is that, two years after that date, this city should still be without elected representation. This seems to us altogether indefensible on the grounds set out by the Government in the White Paper. How can the Minister reconcile — and I hope he will tell us how he can — the principles set out in the White Paper with his actual practice in relation to Dublin city? We see in this way of dealing with the problem, that is to say the lip-service to the idea of elective democracy in local government and the actual application of a purely managerial system, yet another symptom of a general erosion in our democracy.

I now come to the question of pollution. The Parliamentary Secretary referred to this matter in his statement here this morning. While some of the things he said were interesting and reassuring, I must say that I found others a little bit alarming. He began by saying that he thought Conservation Year might have awakened the conscience of the people. The Government are part of the people and they are the part of the people's conscience that most urgently needs to be awakened on this matter. One looked to the Parliamentary Secretary's speech, as to the Minister's also, for evidence that this was the case.

The Parliamentary Secretary said — and I think on the whole this is rather alarming in this decade — that conservation and development conflict. He seemed to me to be indicating that, where development and conservation conflicted, the needle would go down on the side of development. This was a philosophical statement I would agree, and there is an element of truth in it but, as an indication of the Government's attitudes and preferences, it is something we need to be a little wary about. In most countries and cities today, the view is growing that development and conservation have to be related, that is to say, that the kind of development which really sharply conflicts with conservation should be limited.

I think the Deputy was not listening to what I said. I said it is the duty of those responsible to hold the balance. It is not a question of the needle going down in favour of one.

The Parliamentary Secretary will forgive me if I say that it is precisely about those responsible that I have some doubts. On the whole, the governmental emphasis has not been a very strongly conservationist one. We see evidence of that all around us in our environment. What we would welcome would be a less hold-the-balance-even approach and a greater emphasis on conservation, a greater aliveness to pollution, to what is for most parts of the country a pollution threat and what is for Dublin city and its environment a very present reality.

In referring to that circular of his, I took the Parliamentary Secretary to be referring to a section in it dealing with pollution but then when I asked him to cite the section in question I rather got the impression that it was not really there. Is it there?

Yes. The Deputy can take my word for it.

The pollution must be thinly diffused through the document in question and not concentrated in part of it.

That is what we are aiming at.

Political pollution.

We know a lot about that.

Another aspect of the Parliamentary Secretary's remarks was the emphasis on the local authorities. We hope that, under this general umbrella, the inaction or the faults of the local authorities will not become yet another alibi for Government inaction. We believe that pollution and, on the positive side, conservation, are matters of national importance which cannot be shelved on to the local authorities. We think also that in relation to that part of the country where these problems are most acute, that is Dublin city, the national responsibility and the governmental responsibility to deal with them are all the more inescapable in that the Government have abolished for two years now the democratic participative element in local government and, therefore, cannot use any failure on the part of such body as an excuse for their inaction. We think that the problem of pollution as a whole is a problem for the Government and, in the immediate present, the problem of pollution in Dublin city is squarely on the shoulders of the Government.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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